Smaug & Scatha
Brett W. McCoy
>FROM: Fenris <fen...@aol.com>
>
>Anything with tentacles called the "The Watcher in the Water" reminds me
>quite strongly of Lovecraft's universe. You don't suppose that the
>Watcher was a cameo appearance by Great. . . ? Nah, it couldn't be! : )
It reminded me strongly of Lovecraft, too, especially the comment that
there are creatures who gnaw at the darkness deep in the earth that are
not allied with Sauron.
I wonder if Tolkien ever read any Lovecraft? I'm sure he wouldn't have
enjoyed much of it, but he might have enjoyed some of the Dunsanian
Dream fantasies, and the fact that Lovecraft referred to "faery" as a
realm and not dimunitive elves in several of his stories. Lin Carter
reported that Tolkien enjoyed RE Howard's, who was a close friend of
Lovecraft, writings.
Brett W. McCoy
Szymon Sokol
: not allied with Sauron.
: I wonder if Tolkien ever read any Lovecraft? I'm sure he wouldn't have
: enjoyed much of it, but he might have enjoyed some of the Dunsanian
: Dream fantasies, and the fact that Lovecraft referred to "faery" as a
: realm and not dimunitive elves in several of his stories. Lin Carter
: reported that Tolkien enjoyed RE Howard's, who was a close friend of
: Lovecraft, writings.
Really? I have better opinion on JRRT's literary tastes :-( REH's stories
(Conan, Kull, etc.) are pretty stupid and all alike... Boring. Exactly the
opposite of Tolkien. When anyone asks me what is "bad fantasy" I answer
"REH, Dragonlance stories, and late Andre Norton" ;-)
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Szymon Sokol
: As inelegant as some of Howard's writings are, his influence on modern
: fantasy cannot be ignored. The genre of Sword & Sorcery (as opposed to
: Tolkienish "high fantasy") can be be pretty much attributed to him.
Possible. It does not change the fact that REH was a poor writer.
: However, other writers have done much better, such as Fritz Lieber and
^^^^^^ Leiber
: his Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories. I definitely agree with you on
I agree, though I have read little of those.
: the Dragonlance stuff, though. Andre Norton... well, her writing is
: inconsistent. In some passages she shines, in others she effects a
: very stiff and awkward attempt at being intentionally obscure and abstract,
: like a bad imitation of Michael Moorcock (whose style I also find
: inconsistent as well).
Norton started really well ("The Witch-World") and gradually worsened - each
book in the series was worse than the previous one. After six or seven volumes
they became unreadable - the "sequel syndrom" I think...
I agree about Moorcock.
Mike - Grobelch
Szymon Sokol <szy...@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl> wrote:
>Brett W. McCoy (p01...@psilink.com) wrote:
>
>: As inelegant as some of Howard's writings are, his influence on modern
>: fantasy cannot be ignored. The genre of Sword & Sorcery (as opposed to
>: Tolkienish "high fantasy") can be be pretty much attributed to him.
>Possible. It does not change the fact that REH was a poor writer.
IYHO. IMHO, he was excellent.
Mike
Brett W. McCoy
>FROM: Szymon Sokol <szy...@galaxy.uci.agh.edu.pl>
>
>Norton started really well ("The Witch-World") and gradually worsened - each
>book in the series was worse than the previous one. After six or seven volumes
>they became unreadable - the "sequel syndrom" I think...
I can say the same about Piers Anthony also. Cranking out a new book
every six months does not leave one much time to really write a decent
work of fantasy. I would rather a writer spend a few years researching
and creating a proper "inner consistency of reality" that a fantasy
requires to make it memorable. This is why Tolkien's work is so
unique, because he spent years and years creating his works, rather
than just trying to get on the bestseller lists. Most modern
bestsellers are forgotten after a few months, only to be replaced by
another equally forgettable novel.
Brett W. McCoy | "Go not to the Elves for counsel,
bmc...@cap.gwu.edu | for they will say
Minstrel, Mage, Sage, Wooer of Women, | both yes and no"
and General Friend of All Nature... | -- JRR Tolkien
Brett W. McCoy
>FROM: Mike - Grobelch <grob...@shell.portal.com>
I myself rather enjoy Conan the stories. RE Howard was a pulp writer,
and his writing style was definitely in the jagged, brutal pulp style.
One of my main criticisms of him was his adulteration of historic place
names. In some places, they were effective, like using Stygia as Egypt
and Khitai as China. But in other cases, it seemed as if he'd pick a
name at random from an atlas, change a couple of letters, and just plop
them in his story. That's sloppy. The Cimmerians, for instance, were
native to Anatolia (Turkey), yet Howard has placed them in the far
north, and made them Celtic/Nordic in language and culture.
Richard N Kitchen
In a previous article, p01...@psilink.com (Brett W. McCoy) says:
>I myself rather enjoy Conan the stories. RE Howard was a pulp writer,
>and his writing style was definitely in the jagged, brutal pulp style.
>One of my main criticisms of him was his adulteration of historic place
>names. In some places, they were effective, like using Stygia as Egypt
>and Khitai as China. But in other cases, it seemed as if he'd pick a
>name at random from an atlas, change a couple of letters, and just plop
>them in his story. That's sloppy. The Cimmerians, for instance, were
>native to Anatolia (Turkey), yet Howard has placed them in the far
>north, and made them Celtic/Nordic in language and culture.
I think he used Cimmeria to echo Cymria, the native word for Wales.
Fenris
(Richard N Kitchen) writes:
[Snip]
>The Cimmerians, for instance, were
>native to Anatolia (Turkey), yet Howard has placed them in the far
>north, and made them Celtic/Nordic in language and culture.
[Snip]
I don't think that this belongs in the Tolkien group but, FWIW, the
Cimmerians were historically a Celtic people that had migrated to Asia
Minor from the north-west. Perhaps they came from Howard's Cimmeria? I
think that Howard actually did a pretty good job of integrating historical
names with his cultures. At any rate, don't try to hold Howard too
closely to our history; just enjoy the feel of his stories.
John
Brett W. McCoy
>FROM: Richard N Kitchen <da...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
I did a touch of research on this yesterday. Apparently, REH was using
a reference in Homer, rather than the historical Cimmerians, who I
think were more akin to the Scythians (I could be wrong here). Homer
makes reference to a group of semi-mythical people called Cimmerians
(or Kimmimeroi) who live in the north in a land of perpetual mist and darkness.
Mr Neville Steven Percy
>>>: As inelegant as some of Howard's writings are, his influence on modern
>>>: fantasy cannot be ignored. The genre of Sword & Sorcery (as opposed to
>>>: Tolkienish "high fantasy") can be be pretty much attributed to him.
>>>Possible. It does not change the fact that REH was a poor writer.
>>IYHO. IMHO, he was excellent.
>I myself rather enjoy Conan the stories. RE Howard was a pulp writer,
>and his writing style was definitely in the jagged, brutal pulp style.
I'm also going to echo that -- Howard was good at what he did, and the stuff
was groundbreaking for a whole genre (even if the genre subsequently attracted
a lot of poor copycats in the same manner as Cyberpunk has now...)
And since Lovecraft has been mentioned on this thread: yes, he too was not in
Tolkien's league in literary terms or the quality of his prose, but it's
unreasonable to just flame all lesser authors.
>One of my main criticisms of him was his adulteration of historic place
>names. In some places, they were effective, like using Stygia as Egypt
>and Khitai as China. But in other cases, it seemed as if he'd pick a
>name at random from an atlas, change a couple of letters, and just plop
>them in his story. That's sloppy. The Cimmerians, for instance, were
>native to Anatolia (Turkey), yet Howard has placed them in the far
>north, and made them Celtic/Nordic in language and culture.
Well, the Galatians were originally marauding Celts who settled on the coast
of Anatolia after a huge nomadic raid all across that area. The term
'Galatians' is related to 'Gaul' and 'Gallic'. I don't know whether Cimmerians
falls into the same category...
I have to say that Howard's theoretical Hyborian Age is very much reminiscent
of Tolkien's own decision to say that Middle Earth eventually becomes modern
Earth, and which a recent post-er said was a relatively late development of his
work. Could it be that this was inspired by Howard?
|
d A 6
| .dbdMb.db .|
dMP'______'YMb
.-~~ /~~\ ~~-.
Neville Percy `-.__ \__/ __.-' n.p...@ucl.ac.uk
~~~~~~
S M Ryan
: of Anatolia after a huge nomadic raid all across that area. The term
: 'Galatians' is related to 'Gaul' and 'Gallic'. I don't know whether Cimmerians
: falls into the same category...
Well since elves are supposedly Tuatha de Danaan, and Valinor was inspired by
Tir na Og, I suppose this is a Tolkien related comment:
Is there anywhere those pesky Celts didn't go?
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Brett W. McCoy
>FROM: Mr Neville Steven Percy <spb...@ucl.ac.uk>
>
>I have to say that Howard's theoretical Hyborian Age is very much reminiscent
>of Tolkien's own decision to say that Middle Earth eventually becomes modern
>Earth, and which a recent post-er said was a relatively late development of his
>work. Could it be that this was inspired by Howard?
It is possible, since, as I said, Tolkien himself enjoyed the Conan
stories. The Hyborian Age maps are, of course, intended to be
superimposed upon maps of modern Europe to show the correspondences
between the various countries, and he did have extensive historical
background material for his stories, as his essay "The Hyborian Age"
will attest.
In reference to Lovecraft, he too created extensive historical
backgrounds for much of his stories, although many stories contradicted
each other. And his skill at inventing abhorred texts to the point
that the reader was convinced that they actually existed is virtually
unique in modern fantasy and science fiction. I won't beat this to
death, since this isn't a Lovecraft newsgroup, but some of Lovecraft's
personal attitudes were quite similar to Tolkien's, despite the fact
that HPL wasn't Christian. He had no patience for modern writers, and
he also believed that myth and fantasy could reveal truths that logical
arguments could never attain, and he also shared some of Tolkien's and
Charles Williams influences, such as Yeats, Lord Dunsany and Charles Lamb.