As we all know, the Valar had *some* aspects in common with the Norse gods but there was very far from a one-to-one correspondence.
I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala. And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life, but was there?
Stan Brown wrote: > As we all know, the Valar had *some* aspects in common with the Norse > gods but there was very far from a one-to-one correspondence.
> I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala. > And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there > should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life, > but was there?
There was; his name is Njord or Njorthr, and he controls the sea and beach, husband of Skalthi, father of Frey and Freya. He has clean feet.
Stan Brown wrote: > As we all know, the Valar had *some* aspects in common with the Norse > gods but there was very far from a one-to-one correspondence.
> I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala. > And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there > should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life, > but was there?
Found a Norse god that sounds a bit like Osse, but not Ulmo:
>>As we all know, the Valar had *some* aspects in common with the Norse >>gods but there was very far from a one-to-one correspondence.
>>I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala. >>And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there >>should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life, >>but was there?
> Found a Norse god that sounds a bit like Osse, but not Ulmo:
> And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there > should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life, > but was there?
Njord, possibly the same as earlier Nerthus that was described by a Roman as a chief goddess of the Earth worshipped by the Iron Age Germanics. In the Norse mythology Njord was a Vana, ie. of the other clan of gods, while Odin and Thor were Asagods. Njord was father of Frey (god of fertility) and Freya (goddess of love, and therefore also concerned with fertility). His wife, after he had fathered Frey and Freya, was Skadi of the mountain, who may actually have named Scandinavia, having perhaps been much more important in the mythology earlier, long before written records. In one story she seems to have come close to defeating the Asagods collectively, but was defeated through a delaying action and was then given Njord as husband in a sort of equivalent of Danegeld - as Larry the Housecarl mentioned, he had clean and beautiful feet from standing in seawater all day long. Also there were Ægir and Ran. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that Ran had somewhat of the same temperament and role as Ossë. So there were actually three of them. Just as there were three war-gods - Odin, king, master of war-luck, Thor the great champion who beat the Jotnir to pulp, and Tyr (or Tiw), the general. The Jotnir (Jotuns) were at least in part a precursor to the trolls of later fairy tales, so perhaps we could on occasion do with some Thor-worship on the NGs. Perhaps the relative scarcity of trolls lately is due to Thor paying heed to us. :-)
>>> As we all know, the Valar had *some* aspects in common with the Norse >>> gods but there was very far from a one-to-one correspondence.
>>> I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala. >>> And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there >>> should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life, >>> but was there?
>> Found a Norse god that sounds a bit like Osse, but not Ulmo:
> Could it be that the Norse gods were created at a time when > the sea didn't yet have such major inpact in people's life?
> Ulmo seems to be more related to the Greek sea god Poseidon > or the Kalevalan sea god Ahti.
> Morgil
I'd agree with you there, Morgil. Njorthr doesn't seem nearly as fleshed out as Poseidon and Ahti, and Poseidon's relationship with Zeus seems more akin to Ulmo and Manwe than Njorthr and the other Aesir.
Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:05:17 -0500 from Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm>:
> I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala. > And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there > should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life, > but was there?
Thanks to all for the interesting responses. I don't think I had ever heard of Njord.
> The Jotnir (Jotuns) were at least in part a precursor to the trolls of > later fairy tales, so perhaps we could on occasion do with some > Thor-worship > on the NGs. Perhaps the relative scarcity of trolls lately is due to Thor > paying heed to us. :-)
Though "jotun" is always translated into modern Swedish and Danish as "jätte/jætte" ("giant"), which is what the word means today. It is a variant form of "jotun", but come to think of it, I am not sure the jotnir are described as of giant stature in the old texts.
> Though "jotun" is always translated into modern Swedish and Danish as > "jätte/jætte" ("giant"), which is what the word means today. It is a > variant form of "jotun", but come to think of it, I am not sure the jotnir > are described as of giant stature in the old texts.
I have not heard "jætte" in Norwegian, nor "jotun" in Danish. But it seems true that they were not necessarily of giant stature. The Asagods were of stature similar to humans, and the Asagods could marry jotnir - or try to, as in the story of Thrym stealing Thor's hammer and demanding Freya's hand in marriage for its return. Loki *did* marry a jotun, and sired some monsters on her. There are some mental images I don't much want to contemplate if he was my size and she tall as an oak. The Danish word "jætte" does not mean "giant" in my experience. "Kæmpe" does.
>> Though "jotun" is always translated into modern Swedish and Danish as >> "jätte/jætte" ("giant"), which is what the word means today. It is a >> variant form of "jotun", but come to think of it, I am not sure the >> jotnir are described as of giant stature in the old texts.
> I have not heard "jætte" in Norwegian, nor "jotun" in Danish
Oh, I did not mean to imply that the word "jotun" exists in Danish today - or in Swedish; that form of the word is Icelandic anyway. I merely meant that "jätte/jætte" originated as a hypochoristic form av the corresponding OSw iætun, ODa iatæn. The cognate OE form was "eoten", which you can find in the name Ettenmoor in C. S. Lewis' Narnia books. All the forms go back to a Germanic *etuna- which meant "to eat". So a giant was a glutton.
[snip]
> The Danish word "jætte" does not mean "giant" in my experience. "Kæmpe" > does.
The newspaper Politiken's "Nudansk ordbog" gives the meanings "1. In Nordic mythology: a supernatural, evil being" and 2. "om uasædvanligt stort, stærkt menneske: *vægtlöfteren var en jætte at se til:"; that is to say: "about an unusually tall and strong person: *the weightlifter was a giant to behold". It can also be used as a strentgthening word, just like the Swedish jätte: "jättemonument" and so on.
Stan Brown wrote: > Fri, 17 Nov 2006 18:05:17 -0500 from Stan Brown > <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm>:
> > I was thinking today of Ulmo, who has always been my favorite Vala. > > And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there > > should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse life, > > but was there?
> Thanks to all for the interesting responses. I don't think I had ever > heard of Njord.
Njörður is celebrated in many names in Iceland, including Njarðvík both in the east and west.
> that "jätte/jætte" originated as a hypochoristic form av the > corresponding > OSw iætun, ODa iatæn. The cognate OE form was "eoten", which you can > find in > the name Ettenmoor in C. S. Lewis' Narnia books. All the forms go back > to a > Germanic *etuna- which meant "to eat". So a giant was a glutton.
However, there is something of the gigantic implied in at least some of the traditions- remember Thor wandering around in the glove? There is also the possibly related OE ent- esp. since, IIRC, it's only attested in genitival formations, such as /eald enta geweorc/; which to my lay mind raises at least the possibility that it's just a strong declension of /eoten/.
-- " I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of his work"
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 23:59:01 -0500, Öjevind Lång > <bredband....@ojevind.lang> wrote:
> I merely meant >> that "jätte/jætte" originated as a hypochoristic form av the >> corresponding >> OSw iætun, ODa iatæn. The cognate OE form was "eoten", which you can >> find in >> the name Ettenmoor in C. S. Lewis' Narnia books. All the forms go back >> to a >> Germanic *etuna- which meant "to eat". So a giant was a glutton.
> However, there is something of the gigantic implied in at least some of > the traditions- remember Thor wandering around in the glove? There is > also the possibly related OE ent- esp. since, IIRC, it's only attested in > genitival formations, such as /eald enta geweorc/; which to my lay mind > raises at least the possibility that it's just a strong declension of > /eoten/.
YR! Incidentally, I just realized that the name Ettendales, Ettenmoors actually is from LotR, but didn't Lewis use something similar for the wilderness north of Narnia?
> Incidentally, I just realized that the name Ettendales, Ettenmoors > actually is from LotR, but didn't Lewis use something similar for the > wilderness north of Narnia?
From C.S. Lewis's /The Silver Chair/ (1953) we have ETTINSMOOR. From J.R.R. Tolkien's /The Lord of the Rings/ (1954-5) we have ETTENMOORS and ETTENDALES.
I recently read that there were other examples of cross-fertilisation, such as Numinor and plot points in the "Out of the Silent Planet" trilogy by Lewis. I assume the traffic was all one way, from Tolkien to Lewis (the above are publication dates, not dates of composition). Can anyone see any influence from Lewis on what Tolkien wrote?
>> And I couldn't think of any Norse god of the sea. It seems there >> should have been one, given the importance of the sea in Norse >> life, but was there?
> Njord, [...] > In the Norse mythology Njord was a Vana, ie. of the other clan of > gods, while Odin and Thor were Asagods.
Njord (and Frey + Freya) was exchanged with Mimir (+ Høner) when the Aesir and the Vanir made peace (as peace-hostages). The Vanir, suspecting foul play, beheaded Mimir and sent his head back to the Aesir, which Odin then worked his magic ("troll-dom") upon to make it alive. I've seen one source at least (though I don't recall where) cite Mimir as some kind of sea-god for the primordial sea, but most places don't mention that.
> Also there were Ægir and Ran. I'm no expert, but it seems to > me that Ran had somewhat of the same temperament and role as Ossë.
Ægir (and supposedly his wife, Rán, I don't know) was of the giants. Together with Logi (Flame) and Kári (Wind), Ægir was one of the giants representing elements.
<spamg...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > Öjevind Lång wrote:
> <snip>
>> Incidentally, I just realized that the name Ettendales, Ettenmoors >> actually is from LotR, but didn't Lewis use something similar for the >> wilderness north of Narnia?
> From C.S. Lewis's /The Silver Chair/ (1953) we have ETTINSMOOR. From > J.R.R. > Tolkien's /The Lord of the Rings/ (1954-5) we have ETTENMOORS and > ETTENDALES.
> I recently read that there were other examples of cross-fertilisation, > such > as Numinor and plot points in the "Out of the Silent Planet" trilogy by > Lewis. I assume the traffic was all one way, from Tolkien to Lewis (the > above are publication dates, not dates of composition). Can anyone see > any > influence from Lewis on what Tolkien wrote?
Well, Lewis once said, "Nobody influences Tolkien. You might as well try to influence a bandersnatch." Although JRRT did accept a very small number of CSL's suggestions on The Lay Of Leithian.
You are aware that Ransome, esp. in the first book, was intended as a portrait of Tolkien? -- " I would even contend that a reaction against Tolkien's non-Modernist prose style is just as influential in the rejection of Tolkien by traditional literary scholars as is Modernist antipathy to the themes of his work"
> Well, Lewis once said, "Nobody influences Tolkien. You might as well try > to influence a bandersnatch." Although JRRT did accept a very small > number of CSL's suggestions on The Lay Of Leithian.
> You are aware that Ransome, esp. in the first book, was intended as a > portrait of Tolkien?
Yes. I daresay Ransom's given name, Elwin, was picked with that in mind.
> > Well, Lewis once said, "Nobody influences Tolkien. You might as well try > > to influence a bandersnatch." Although JRRT did accept a very small > > number of CSL's suggestions on The Lay Of Leithian.
somewhere tolkien says that lewis's main contribution was simply in encouraging him to carry on writing his stuff. and also that he wd push tolkien to improve his writings. i believe i read this in carpenter's biography.
> > You are aware that Ransome, esp. in the first book, was intended as a > > portrait of Tolkien?
> Yes. I daresay Ransom's given name, Elwin, was picked with that in mind.
esp. given that the space trilogy and tolkien's /the lost road/ (where the name elwin figures) were deliberately intended to complement each other.
though in /that hideous strength/, ransom starts turning into charles williams.
>> > You are aware that Ransome, esp. in the first book, was intended as a >> > portrait of Tolkien?
>> Yes. I daresay Ransom's given name, Elwin, was picked with that in mind. >esp. given that the space trilogy and tolkien's /the lost road/ (where
the name elwin figures) were deliberately intended to complement each other.
>though in /that hideous strength/, ransom starts turning into charles
williams.
Tolkiend didn't care for "That Hideous Strength". It seems he resented Williams' influence on Lewis, but I do think he had a point; the first two planetary books are excellent, but the third is rather weird, to my mind.
> Tolkiend didn't care for "That Hideous Strength". It seems he resented > Williams' influence on Lewis, but I do think he had a point; the first two > planetary books are excellent, but the third is rather weird, to my mind.
i enjoy /that hideous strength/, except for the end, which IS a bit weird, and some of the "fisher-king" stuff. a lot of the NICE stuff is fun.
i like the first half of /perelandra/ best. when it moves away from the lady and has ransom and satan-weston beating each other up, it gets a bit bheh IMO. PJ shd film it.
>i enjoy /that hideous strength/, except for the end, which IS a bit
weird, and some of the "fisher-king" stuff. a lot of the NICE stuff is fun.
The NICE satire is excellent, but the mysticism at the end is apparently quite Williamsian, and like you, I don't care for it.
>i like the first half of /perelandra/ best. when it moves away from
the lady and has ransom and satan-weston beating each other up, it gets a bit bheh IMO. PJ shd film it.
My favourite of the three is "Out of the Silent Planet" - I liked the hrossa and the sorns very much, and also the fresh, very vivid descriptions of a different, un-Earthlike world. Few science fiction writers have surpassed it, probably due to their fixation on machines or weird societies. The first chapters of Perelandra are beautiful too, but, as you say, the whole Weston-Satan thing is disgusting. There is a brief return to form towards the end, with Ransom's undergound voyage where he sees mysterious things that he never gets an explanation for. Sort of an anti-Lovecraftian experience, if you understand what I mean.
> My favourite of the three is "Out of the Silent Planet" - I liked the hrossa > and the sorns very much, and also the fresh, very vivid descriptions of a > different, un-Earthlike world. Few science fiction writers have surpassed > it, probably due to their fixation on machines or weird societies.
there's also some amusing parody of other science fiction. in his essays (+ a taped conversation) on science fiction in /of other worlds/, CSL complained that too much SF made out other intelligent life to be evil and to have lots of tentacles. early in OOTSP, ransom is afraid of being handed over to the sorns, imagining them to be some horrible SF monster. already in CSL's time SF began to take a more self-critical approach to humanity's relations with other species.
The first
> chapters of Perelandra are beautiful too, but, as you say, the whole > Weston-Satan thing is disgusting. There is a brief return to form towards > the end, with Ransom's undergound voyage where he sees mysterious things > that he never gets an explanation for. Sort of an anti-Lovecraftian > experience, if you understand what I mean.
the bit with the giant bug-thing that turns out to be harmless?
>>The first >> chapters of Perelandra are beautiful too, but, as you say, the whole >> Weston-Satan thing is disgusting. There is a brief return to form towards >> the end, with Ransom's undergound voyage where he sees mysterious things >> that he never gets an explanation for. Sort of an anti-Lovecraftian >> experience, if you understand what I mean.
>the bit with the giant bug-thing that turns out to be harmless?
There were other things too, I think which were mysterious and eerie but never horrible.
> Njord (and Frey + Freya) was exchanged with Mimir (+ Høner) when the > Aesir and the Vanir made peace (as peace-hostages). The Vanir, > suspecting foul play, beheaded Mimir and sent his head back to the > Aesir, which Odin then worked his magic ("troll-dom") upon to make it > alive. I've seen one source at least (though I don't recall where) > cite Mimir as some kind of sea-god for the primordial sea, but most > places don't mention that.
>> Also there were Ægir and Ran. I'm no expert, but it seems to >> me that Ran had somewhat of the same temperament and role as Ossë.
> Ægir (and supposedly his wife, Rán, I don't know) was of the giants. > Together with Logi (Flame) and Kári (Wind), Ægir was one of the > giants representing elements.
H.R. Ellis-Davidson has a chapter on "The Gods of the Sea" in her classic /Gods and Myths of Northern Europe/, which I recommend if anyone wants to read more about Norse mythology. I also have a Dover reprint of H.A. Guerber's /Myths of the Norsement/, which has separate chapters on Njörd and Ægir, although its scholarship may not be as reliable as Ellis-Davidson's (and is certainly far more out of date). Guerber says:
Ægir (the sea), like his brothers Kari (the air) and Loki (fire), is supposed to have belonged to an older dynasty of the gods, for he ranked neither with the Æsir, the Vanas, the giants, dwarfs, or elves, but was considered omnipotent within his realm.
I don't know what his source may have been for this statement. Guerber also says that Ran was Ægir's sister. I agree with Raven that Ossë's character is reminiscent of Ægir's (and Ran's) rather than Njörd's; I wonder whether Tolkien's decision to have one major sea-god and two minor sea-deities who were a married couple was inspired by the Norse situation.
I'm unable to find any decent web pages dealing with Ægir and Ran, but this one on Njörd is worth looking at:
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