The Real Ring?

[Paul S. Person]

I found this online today:

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/world/article/Ring-that-may-have-inspired-Tolkien-goes-on-show-4403044.php

It doesn't /look/ like a plain band of gold. Still, I suppose the
inspiration could have been detail-free.

The curse tablet, after all, never made it into the books.

What struck me was how Hobbit-like the person holding the ring looks,
at least to me.

But perhaps I am confusing "Hobbit" with something else.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."

[Curlytop]

Paul S. Person set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> What struck me was how Hobbit-like the person holding the ring looks,
> at least to me.

A very young child I would say. Pity she's out of focus - or is that the
effect of merely holding the Ring? Would she disappear completely if she
put it on?
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

[Paul S. Person]

On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 20:35:11 +0100, Curlytop
<pvstownse...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>Paul S. Person set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
>continuum:
>
>> What struck me was how Hobbit-like the person holding the ring looks,
>> at least to me.
>
>A very young child I would say. Pity she's out of focus - or is that the
>effect of merely holding the Ring? Would she disappear completely if she
>put it on?

But what does Aragorn tell Eomer about Merry and Pippin? I paraphrase:
"to your eyes they would appear but children". So of course a Hobbit
would appear to our eyes to be a child!

As to disappearing if she put it on, so far as I know, the experiment
was not attempted.

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message <news:3cmol8p1gd1foq57m...@4ax.com>
Paul S. Person <pspe...@ix.netscom.com.invalid> spoke these staves:

>
> I found this online today:
>
> http://www.seattlepi.com/news/world/article/Ring-that-may-have-
inspired-Tolkien-goes-on-show-4403044.php

One of many ...

> It doesn't /look/ like a plain band of gold. Still, I suppose the
> inspiration could have been detail-free.

I think it is appropriate to state the conclusions on this question
in the Tolkien Society and the Mythopoeic Society:
Robert Eric Mortimer Wheeler (not yet knighted at the time) and his
wife and partner, Tessa Verney Wheeler, conducted excavations at the
site of a Roman temple at Lydney towards the end of the 1920s. Wheeler
wrote a report on the excavations in which he noted, among other
things, the people who had been at the dig -- Tolkien was not among
those, but among others that were thanked for their expert assistance.

Tolkien wrote, for the report, a essay on 'The Name Nodens'
(republished in an issue of /Tolkien Studies/) as that name appears on
several items found at the Lydney dig site. The essay appears as an
appendix to Wheeler's report, and the letters between Tolkien and
Wheeler suggests a business-like relationship (last names, no
references to having met or things like that).

There is no evidence that Tolkien actually visited the Lydney / Nodens
dig site, nor that he and Wheeler ever met in person.

The ring that is now being displayed at The Vyne was found in the 18th
century roughly a hundred miles from the Lydney site at a place called
Sichester (close to The Vyne). Nothing about this ring is included in
Wheeler's report, and there is nothing to suggest that Tolkien actually
knew about it.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided
into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from,
and (d) rocks.
- /Equal Rites/ (Terry Pratchett)

[Paul S. Person]

Here is a link that will now work (the one above can no longer be
found, such is the nature of the daily newspaper):

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/04/02/ring-that-may-have-inspired-tolkien-goes-on-show/

This appears to be the same article, with the same apparent Hobbit
holding the ring. (Yes, I know it is Fox News, but it is still the
same article I saw before.)

The article states:

>]An archaeologist who looked into the connection between the ring and
>]the curse tablet asked Tolkien, who was an Anglo-Saxon professor at
>]Oxford University, to work on the etymology of the name Nodens in
>]1929.
>]
>]The writer also visited the temple several times, and some believe he
>]would have been aware of the existence of the Roman ring before he
>]started writing "The Hobbit."

So, JRRT's visits to the temple are presented as a fact, as is the
statement that "some believe" he may have been aware of the ring. I
have, of course, no idea what the truth may be.

And I still think the person holding the ring looks a lot like a
Hobbit.

[None]

"Paul S. Person" <pspe...@ix.netscom.com.invalid> wrote in message

> So, JRRT's visits to the temple are presented as a fact, as is the
> statement that "some believe" he may have been aware of the ring. I
> have, of course, no idea what the truth may be.

The weasely "some believe" is a strong indication that it's a pile of
orcshit.

[de...@pointerstop.ca]

On Monday, April 22, 2013 10:31:31 AM UTC-3, Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> Tolkien wrote, for the report, a essay on 'The Name Nodens'
> (republished in an issue of /Tolkien Studies/) as that name appears on
> several items found at the Lydney dig site. The essay appears as an
> appendix to Wheeler's report, and the letters between Tolkien and
> Wheeler suggests a business-like relationship (last names, no
> references to having met or things like that).

"last names", in itself, actually suggests a personal relationship to me, not a business one. Do they call each other "Professor Tolkien" and "Professor Wheeler" or "Tolkien" and "Wheeler"? The latter is frequently used even by close friends in England.

[Paul S. Person]

Possibly so, but at least they (and, no, I don't mean you) didn't wait
until the original link ceased working before citing evidence that
JRRT never visited the site, never mind saw the ring.

This appears to be based on the archaelogical report, which would
include everyone who worked on the site but might not include casual
visitors. Nobody is claiming that JRRT actually worked at the site.

Note that JRRT's visits are asserted by the article without
weasle-words. It is only his seeing the ring that is weasled.

[Julian Bradfield]

Just in case anybody's confused, Derek's referring to the customs in
Tolkien's time. The use of plain surnames as a mark of friendship died
out with my grandparents' generation (a little later than Tolkien's):
my grandfather used surnames to his male friends when he was young,
but in later life when I knew him (in the late 60s, early 70s), he
used first names to them.

I heard from someone at my university that when Tolkien was external
examiner for the English department, in the third or fourth year of
his term he invited his academic host to "just call me Tolkien"
instead of "Professor Tolkien".

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message
<news:46d77b6d-e459-4d3d...@googlegroups.com>
de...@pointerstop.ca spoke these staves:

Hmm -- I had this from a post somewhere else, and I believed that it
was from the Tolkien Society Facebook group, but now I don't seem to
be able to find the post that I believe I remember (as I recall it,
the style was described as 'formal'). All I can find is the
information that communication between Wheeler and Tolkien was by
letter and that there is evidence they had even met when Tolkien
wrote that essay for Wheeler.

Sorry that I cannot be more clear -- I will keep looking, but of
course the more I search and fail to find, the more I shall also
begin to doubt my own recollection.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

Smile
a while
ere day
is done
and all
your gall
will soon
be gone.
- Piet Hein, /Advice at Nightfall/

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message <news:XnsA1ACE325...@130.133.4.11>
Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> spoke these staves:

>
> All I can find is the information that communication between
> Wheeler and Tolkien was by letter and that there is evidence they
> had even met when Tolkien wrote that essay for Wheeler.

My apologies -- that last sentence is missing a 'no' before evidence.
It should have read: "All I can find is the information that
communication between Wheeler and Tolkien was by letter, and that there
is /no/ evidence they had even met when Tolkien wrote that essay for
Wheeler."

I am sorry about any ensuing confusion ...

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

Relativity applies to physics, not ethics.
- Albert Einstein (1875-1955)

[de...@pointerstop.ca]

On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:46:52 PM UTC-3, Julian Bradfield wrote:

> Just in case anybody's confused, Derek's referring to the customs in
> Tolkien's time. The use of plain surnames as a mark of friendship died
> out with my grandparents' generation (a little later than Tolkien's):
> my grandfather used surnames to his male friends when he was young,
> but in later life when I knew him (in the late 60s, early 70s), he
> used first names to them.

No, actually, I wasn't referring specifically to customs of his time - I was often addressed by my own last name as a child (so, in the 60s). It was not how one addressed _close_ friends, but more likely regular acquaintances, or in a school setting it wasn't uncommon for teachers to address us by last name only.

[de...@pointerstop.ca]

On Wednesday, April 24, 2013 5:19:45 PM UTC-3, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message
> <news:46d77b6d-e459-4d3d...@googlegroups.com>
> de...@pointerstop.ca spoke these staves:
> >

> > "last names", in itself, actually suggests a personal relationship
> > to me, not a business one. Do they call each other "Professor
> > Tolkien" and "Professor Wheeler" or "Tolkien" and "Wheeler"? The
> > latter is frequently used even by close friends in England.

> Hmm -- I had this from a post somewhere else, and I believed that it
> was from the Tolkien Society Facebook group, but now I don't seem to
> be able to find the post that I believe I remember (as I recall it,
> the style was described as 'formal'). All I can find is the
> information that communication between Wheeler and Tolkien was by
> letter and that there is evidence they had even met when Tolkien
> wrote that essay for Wheeler.

I wasn't really trying to suggest that Wheeler & Tolkien were probably friends, just that whether or not they used titles in their communications would be more relevant than just the last names. From the mention of "letters" I thought you were referring to letters available in /The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien/, so didn't realize it wouldn't be easy to verify.

[Julian Bradfield]

On 2013-04-26, de...@pointerstop.ca <de...@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> No, actually, I wasn't referring specifically to customs of his time
> - I was often addressed by my own last name as a child (so, in the
> 60s). It was not how one addressed _close_ friends, but more likely
> regular acquaintances, or in a school setting it wasn't uncommon for
> teachers to address us by last name only.

Yes, you were a child, not an adult. We were talking about Tolkien as
an adult, interacting with another adult.
In my school, teachers called us by last names too - it probably
happens less now, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's still the
practice in some of the older schools.
(Conversely, I was surprised, to say the least, when my first director
of studies at university addressed me as "Bradfield". He was the only
person in post-school life who has ever done so (other than jocularly).)
The military still address juniors by surname - but we weren't talking
about that either.

[Wayne Brown]

In alt.fan.tolkien Paul S. Person <pspe...@ix.netscom.com.invalid> wrote:
> I found this online today:
>
> http://www.seattlepi.com/news/world/article/Ring-that-may-have-inspired-Tolkien-goes-on-show-4403044.php
>
> It doesn't /look/ like a plain band of gold. Still, I suppose the
> inspiration could have been detail-free.
>
> The curse tablet, after all, never made it into the books.
>
> What struck me was how Hobbit-like the person holding the ring looks,
> at least to me.
>
> But perhaps I am confusing "Hobbit" with something else.

Considering Tolkien's expertise and position as a noted scholar of
Anglo-Saxon, I think it far more likely that the various Anglo-Saxon
amulet rings were the inspiration for his magic rings. In particular,
there are three well-known rings with runic inscriptions running all
the way around the band with which Tolkien no doubt would have been
familiar: The Bramham Moor Ring, The Greymoor Hill Ring (sometimes
called the Kingmoor Ring), and the Linstock Castle Ring. Both the
Bramham Moor and Greymoor Hill rings have the same inscriptions, and
the Linstock Castle ring has a related inscription. The inscription
itself is gibberish, possibly intended to be some generic magical
expression like "Abracadabra," but a small portion of it also was found
in "Bald's Leechbook" as part of a spell for staunching blood. So the
rings may have been intended either to provide protection from harm,
or for healing injuries.

The Greymoor Hill ring is in the British Museum. Here's a link to
pictures and descriptions of it:

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectId=88694&partId=1

And here is a link to general information on all three of these rings,
plus four others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_runic_rings

(Hmmm--a total of seven Anglo-Saxon rings with with runic inscriptions,
and three especially notable ones. "The Seven and the Three."
Coincidence or intentional?)

--
F. Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net>

ￜￜs ofereode, ￜisses swa mￜg. ("That passed away, this also can.")
from "Deor," in the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v)