Nameless things that gnaw the deep?
study
Hi,
In case you didn't catch my last message,
I'm eleven and I'm using my mom's account.
I am reading the two towers for the second time, and I noticed
that Gandalf mentioned that
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is
gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
than he."
Does anybody know what these things ARE?
Thanks, Ethan
DONALD G. DAVIS
> "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is
>gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
>than he."
> Does anybody know what these things ARE?
Good question, about which I've also wondered. This passage,
along with the tentacled Watcher in the Water and the Balrog, make the
Moria episode in LOTR more like a horror story than the rest of the
work. Were it not that Tolkien probably was not a devotee of American
pulp magazines, I'd suspect an influence by H. P. Lovecraft.
--Donald Davis
James Witker
<Pine.A32.3.91j.95060...@homer10.u.washington.edu>,
study <kch...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> In case you didn't catch my last message,
>
> I'm eleven and I'm using my mom's account.
>
> I am reading the two towers for the second time, and I noticed
> that Gandalf mentioned that
>
> "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is
> gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
> than he."
>
> Does anybody know what these things ARE?
>
This always bothered me because I couldn't understand how anything couold
be older than Suaron. He's a Maia, right? Created at the very beginning,
right. . .
Jamie
--
James B. Witker Yes, that was my phone
Department of Radio/TV/Film number you saw. . .
Northwestern University '98
Evanston, IL USA
Eric Weir
In <3r4du3$c...@nyx10.cs.du.edu>, dgd...@nyx10.cs.du.edu wrote about Re:
Nameless things that gnaw the deep?:
>study <kch...@u.washington.edu> writes:
>
>> "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is
>>gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are
older
>>than he."
>
>> Does anybody know what these things ARE?
>
> Good question, about which I've also wondered. This passage,
>along with the tentacled Watcher in the Water and the Balrog, make the
>Moria episode in LOTR more like a horror story than the rest of the
>work. Were it not that Tolkien probably was not a devotee of American
>pulp magazines, I'd suspect an influence by H. P. Lovecraft.
>
> --Donald Davis
I suspect that Tolkien read Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard and pulp
magazines. He would have found them, at the least, philologically
interesting. He mentions a fondness for science fiction in his letters,
in a letter written toward the end of his life. It is doubtful that he
acquired a taste for this form of writing in his old age.
As for what the nameless things are, since they are "older than
Sauron" they must be of Bombadil's generation. Maybe his mother-in-law
is down there, or his pre-Goldberry ex-wife. Maybe he pays child
support for the Watcher.
--
Eric Weir eric...@bga.com Austin, Texas
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
R F Minchin
: "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is
: than he."
Hi Ethan,
First, welcome to the Internet and to r.a.b.t.
We know that the 'nameless things' can not actually be older than
Sauron as he is a maia, but they may have been in Middle Earth before
him. For this they would need to be maia as well, presumably of a lesser
power, and would probably be best described as Demons.
I think it possible that some of these creatures may have been
used by Morgoth to breed Dragons as the desription does appear to imply
a worm-like creature. This gives a solution to the 'where did the
Dragons breed from' problem
Rob
James Alexander Chokey
>
> I'm eleven and I'm using my mom's account.
Welcome to r.a.b.tolkien! (By the way, I wouldn't have guessed
that you were eleven from your post. You write as well as many of the
"adult" readers of this group.)
> I am reading the two towers for the second time, and I noticed
>that Gandalf mentioned that
>
> "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is
>gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
>than he."
This has always been one of my favorite passages. I particularly
like the idea of these nameless things "gnawing" at the earth, as
if they were hungrily tearing into it with teeth or mandibles. It's
a quite visceral image.
> Does anybody know what these things ARE?
Some sort of ancient, chthonic powers that are as early as the
earth itself, presumably. After all, LOTR (The Lord of the Rings)
portrays a world in which there a variety of (generally evil) sentient
powers and forces with some sort of connection to the earth and to
the darkness within it. In addition to these "nameless things," there
is the tentacled "Watcher" in the water outside of the Moria-gate,
there is the Balrog in Moria itself, and there is Shelob (later in The Two
Towers) who dwells within the dark tunnels in the mountains of Mordor.
One might also add the barrow-wights from the Barrow Downs and the
Dead from Paths of the Dead to this list, but I think that they, being
specifically associated with places of death, function slightly differently
than the dark, primal, forces represented by the creatures mentioned above.
(Although, one might be tempted to argue that Mount Caradhras, to which
sentience and malevolence are ascribed during the Fellowship's failed
attempt to cross it, is another instance of an elemental force of evil.)
As for what these "nameless things" are or are like-- we have
only what Tolkien tells us-- which is only that they are nameless,
ancient (more so than Sauron), and that they "gnaw" at the earth. He
deliberately leaves their nature and their form undescribed so as to
make them more mysterious, more sinsister, and more puzzling. This is
an integral part of Tolkien's literary style and why his writing has
such power. He suggests things in his readers minds with references
that are never explained or delineated. He opens up imaginative
possibilities with such allusions and refuses to close them off by
providing answers to the questions that they will naturally inspire
readers to ask.
-- Jim C.
==========================================================================
| James A. Chokey jch...@leland.stanford.edu |
| |
| The infinite, expressed finitely, is the essence of beauty |
| |
| --- Schelling |
==========================================================================
James Alexander Chokey
>
>In <3r4du3$c...@nyx10.cs.du.edu>, dgd...@nyx10.cs.du.edu wrote:
>>
>> Good question, about which I've also wondered. This passage,
>>along with the tentacled Watcher in the Water and the Balrog, make the
>>Moria episode in LOTR more like a horror story than the rest of the
>>work. Were it not that Tolkien probably was not a devotee of American
>>pulp magazines, I'd suspect an influence by H. P. Lovecraft.
It certainly is Lovecraftesque in spirit, but one hardly needs to
postulate an influence by Lovecraft in order to explain this. After
all, the notion of ancient, chthonic powers lying deep below the
earth's surface is hardly a Lovecraftian invention. Tolkien would
certainly have been familiar with this theme from Greek and Norse
mythology and poetry as well as from other sources. Of course, that
doesn't mean that Tolkin hadn't read Lovecraft-- only that there are plenty
of other, more obvious, sources of influence for this trope.
>
> I suspect that Tolkien read Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard and pulp
>magazines. He would have found them, at the least, philologically
>interesting.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^
I find this to be an intriguing suggestion. I must confess
to not being too familiar with pulp writers other than Lovecraft and
Howard, but I can't really imagine why Tolkien would find them of
*philological* interest. Could you elaborate on this?
>He mentions a fondness for science fiction in his letters,
>in a letter written toward the end of his life. It is doubtful that he
>acquired a taste for this form of writing in his old age.
Anything's possible, of course. Still, you bring up an interesting
point here-- namely that Tolkien does admit to reading sci-fi at least
later in his life. Does anyone know what sci-fi he read, and what he
liked? Any records of what was in his library, or what authors he is
known to have enjoyed? It would be interesting to know what his tastes
were within that genre.
James Alexander Chokey
James Witker <star...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>
>This always bothered me because I couldn't understand how anything couold
>be older than Suaron. He's a Maia, right? Created at the very beginning,
>right. . .
Not in LOTR, he's not. His origin is left unclear. The story
of Sauron's origin-- and even of his status as a Maia-- comes in
the revised, Christopher-edited, and posthumously-published _Silmarillion_.
This is yet another of those points that shows that one can't simply
regard the _Lord of the Rings_ through the lens of the _Silmarillion_
and expect everything to fit coherently. The simple fact of the matter
is that there are many things in LOTR that simply don't make sense
from the standpoint of the _Silmarillion_, and that it doesn't make sense
to try and superimpose categories of beings taken from the _Silmarillion_
onto all beings in LOTR. These "nameless things" are one example; Tom
Bombadil is another. And although there are brief "explanations" of the
origins of eagles, ents, hobbits, barrow-wights, and other creatures in
the Silmarillion and in other works, a lot of these are clearly later
"additions," provided primarily to cover up the obvious poetic "dis-
crepencies" between The Silmarillion, The Lord of the Rings, and the Hobbit,
and to establish the image of greater continuity between those works
than Tolkien had initially envisioned. And while Tolkien succeeded
admirably in his revising efforts to establish this continuity, the
fact remains that these three works were written at different times and
for different poetic purposes. For this very reason, we cannot and should
not expect the three of them to be wholly compatible and for everything
in one to make sense in the light of another.
study
> -- Jim C.
>
>
> ==========================================================================
> | James A. Chokey jch...@leland.stanford.edu |
> | |
> | The infinite, expressed finitely, is the essence of beauty |
> | |
> | --- Schelling |
> ==========================================================================
>
>
>
>
>
I guess I should have said "Where did they come from?" instead of
"What are they?".
The balrog, as most of us know, is a corrupted Maiar.
Shelob, also, is one of Ungoliant's offspring.
But you're right; where _did_ the Watcher in the Water, the evil
of Cahadras, etc. come from?
Maybe the Watcher is some cross between a squid and a snake made
by Melkor and _it_ gnawed the deep _before_ it came out of Moria (i'm
only guessing that it _did_ come out of Moria).
That still leaves the "ghosts" though...
-Ethan, 11 yrs old
Bancroft Gracey
In article <>, Ethan using his mom's ac,
study (kch...@u.washington.edu) writes:
>
> I am reading the two towers for the second time, and I noticed
>that Gandalf mentioned that
>
> "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is
>gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
>than he."
>
Nope. Gandalf is the only one to have 'seen' them. I don't think
there's another reference to the 'nameless things' (but if there
is, someone will enlighten us all).
-bpg-
Bancroft Gracey
during the First Age, when the Sun and Moon passed under the Earth,
the Moon is attacked by creatures of Morgoth. Maybe the 'nameless
things' are the trapped remnants of their forces, caught when the
world was bent.
-bpg-
Louis Epstein
: In article <3r9bj1$o...@maria.bga.com>, Eric Weir <eric...@bga.com> wrote:
: >
: >He mentions a fondness for science fiction in his letters,
: >in a letter written toward the end of his life. It is doubtful that he
: >acquired a taste for this form of writing in his old age.
:
: Anything's possible, of course. Still, you bring up an interesting
: point here-- namely that Tolkien does admit to reading sci-fi at least
: later in his life. Does anyone know what sci-fi he read, and what he
: liked? Any records of what was in his library, or what authors he is
: known to have enjoyed? It would be interesting to know what his tastes
: were within that genre.
I think the only author he mentions in LETTERS is Isaac Asimov,whose name he
spells "Azimov" (at which it is indexed).
Eric Weir
>In article <starbeam-080...@wil122039.res-hall.nwu.edu>,
>James Witker <star...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>This always bothered me because I couldn't understand how anything
couold
>>be older than Suaron. He's a Maia, right? Created at the very
beginning,
>>right. . .
>
> Not in LOTR, he's not. His origin is left unclear. The story
>of Sauron's origin-- and even of his status as a Maia-- comes in
>the revised, Christopher-edited, and posthumously-published
_Silmarillion_.
>This is yet another of those points that shows that one can't simply
>regard the _Lord of the Rings_ through the lens of the _Silmarillion_
Respectfully, no. It is clear in LoTR that Sauron is who he is in
the Silmarillion. For instance, between Bree and Weathertop, when
Aragorn is telling some of the story of Beren and Luthien to the
Hobbits, he talks of the "Great Enemy in the north, of whom Sauron of
Mordor was only a servant" if I remember the quote correctly. And the
appendices tell the whole history in abbreviated form. Besides, Tolkien
had written most of the Silmarlilion by the time he finished LoTR.
Eric Weir
> It certainly is Lovecraftesque in spirit, but one hardly needs to
>postulate an influence by Lovecraft in order to explain this. After
>all, the notion of ancient, chthonic powers lying deep below the
>earth's surface is hardly a Lovecraftian invention. Tolkien would
>certainly have been familiar with this theme from Greek and Norse
>mythology and poetry as well as from other sources. Of course, that
>doesn't mean that Tolkin hadn't read Lovecraft-- only that there are
plenty
>of other, more obvious, sources of influence for this trope.
>
>>
>> I suspect that Tolkien read Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard and pulp
>>magazines. He would have found them, at the least, philologically
>>interesting.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I find this to be an intriguing suggestion. I must confess
>to not being too familiar with pulp writers other than Lovecraft and
>Howard, but I can't really imagine why Tolkien would find them of
>*philological* interest. Could you elaborate on this?
>
Many pulp writers, like Lovecraft and Howard, were highly educated
misfits who enjoyed inventing history, words, snatches of languages, and
cosmogonies, and making reference to ancient myths and stories. So we
have Howard with his Conan (a "real" mythical hero) from Cimmeria (a
"real" mythical place, although not where Howard puts it) who performs
various feats, including crossing the river Styx, which no Greek hero
could fail to do in his life if he wanted a shot at godhood later.
Lovecraft, of course, invented a book, with such mysterious learned
references to it that there are people who believe it actually exists.
Other pulp authors would then, in their stories, make reference to
the inventions of the first author, with the result that the
Necronomicon is mentioned in many stories besides those of Lovecraft.
The success of an invention of this sort would depend largely on
it's verisimilitude -- did it sound right? We learn that Conan is a
Cimmerian, and although we can't point to Cimmeria on the map, maybe we
read a story once in which it was mentioned, and we suspect that there
is a Cimmeria. It fleshes out the whole background of the story by
coming up with the right word or name that awakes half-forgotten
associations in the reader's mind. (If I remember right, Cimmeria was
another name for the land where Jason went to get the Golden Fleece ...
?)
Tolkien himself indulged in this sort of wordplay, if you can call
it that, coming up with a whole history of a land that sunk beneath the
sea, partly, one might suspect, to evolve the word Atlantate (sp.?,
can't seem to locate it in print right now) for the downfallen land in
one of his elvish tongues. Aha! I said, upon reading this, here is the
origin of the Atlantis legend -- no, wait, this is fiction ...
>later in his life. Does anyone know what sci-fi he read, and what he
>liked? Any records of what was in his library, or what authors he is
>known to have enjoyed? It would be interesting to know what his tastes
>were within that genre.
>
In the letter I mentioned before he says he likes Asimov. In a
much earlier letter he says he is impressed by "A Voyage to Arcturus" by
David Lindsay. He likes the Lord Gro in "The Word Ouroboros".
He seems to have kept up with sci-fi and fantasy throughout his
life.
Sean Crist
>In <3ra2vl$e...@elaine20.Stanford.EDU>, jch...@leland.Stanford.EDU wrote
>
>>James Witker <star...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>This always bothered me because I couldn't understand how anything
>couold
>>>be older than Suaron. He's a Maia, right? Created at the very
>beginning,
>>>right. . .
>>
>> Not in LOTR, he's not. His origin is left unclear. The story
>>of Sauron's origin-- and even of his status as a Maia-- comes in
>>the revised, Christopher-edited, and posthumously-published
>_Silmarillion_.
>>This is yet another of those points that shows that one can't simply
>>regard the _Lord of the Rings_ through the lens of the _Silmarillion_
>
> Respectfully, no. It is clear in LoTR that Sauron is who he is in
>the Silmarillion. For instance, between Bree and Weathertop, when
>Aragorn is telling some of the story of Beren and Luthien to the
>Hobbits, he talks of the "Great Enemy in the north, of whom Sauron of
>Mordor was only a servant" if I remember the quote correctly. And the
>appendices tell the whole history in abbreviated form. Besides, Tolkien
>had written most of the Silmarlilion by the time he finished LoTR.
I think you're misunderstanding. The claim being made here is not that
Tolkien intended there to be two separate Sauron figures, one for LoTR and
one for the Silmarillion. Rather, the claim is that Tolkien failed to
fully harmonize the character of Sauron between the two books. There are
some discrepancies. It's the same Sauron; Tolkien just wasn't consistant
about what he wrote about him.
\/ __ __ _\_ --Sean Crist (kuri...@unagi.cis.upenn.edu)
--- | | \ /
_| ,| ,| ----- For a free copy of the Bill of Rights, finger
_| ,| ,| [_] this account.
| | | [_]
M. R. Zucca
star...@nwu.edu (James Witker) wrote:
> > "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is
> > gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
> > than he."
> >
> > Does anybody know what these things ARE?
> >
>
> This always bothered me because I couldn't understand how anything couold
> be older than Suaron. He's a Maia, right? Created at the very beginning,
> right. . .
They could be up there with the top Valar. It's been a long time, but I
recall reading something in the Silmarillion that mentions something
like death being deep down underground.
Does this ring a bell with anybody else or am I confusing this with another
mythology.
Oh, well. I hope this helps.
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Michael Zucca - mrz...@grace.isc.rit.edu - Rochester Institute Of Technology
"It must have a natural cause." "It must have a supernatural cause."
^ Let these two asses be set to grind corn ^
Roger Lo
>ced by Morgoth. Before that, he was Aule's chief lieutenant, during which he learned some of his ring-making skills. So while the =
>spirit of Sauron (who may have gone by a different name in Valinor, I believe, just as Olorin didn't become Gandalf until he came to=
> ME, so it could also be that the name Sauron did not exist) did exist, it had not arrived yet in ME. Other strange things, meanwhi=
>le did come about in ME before his arrival.
>
>Also it could just be an inconsistency. I remember in places where Treebeard was the oldest of living things in ME, and in other pl=
>aces where Tom Bombadil was. I have no idea where these were so I'm trusting my possibly faulty memory on this one.
>
Sorry. I just switched from using Netscape on the Solaris platform to
Netscape on the Mac platform and expected it to wordwrap properly as
the Solaris platform does. I'll try not to let that happen again.
Roger Lo
>In <3ra2vl$e...@elaine20.Stanford.EDU>, jch...@leland.Stanford.EDU wrote
>about Re: Nameless things that gnaw the deep?:
>
>>In article <starbeam-080...@wil122039.res-hall.nwu.edu>,
>>James Witker <star...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>
>couold
>>>be older than Suaron. He's a Maia, right? Created at the very
>beginning,
>>>right. . .
>>
>>of Sauron's origin-- and even of his status as a Maia-- comes in
>>the revised, Christopher-edited, and posthumously-published
>_Silmarillion_.
>>This is yet another of those points that shows that one can't simply
>>regard the _Lord of the Rings_ through the lens of the _Silmarillion_
>
> Respectfully, no. It is clear in LoTR that Sauron is who he is in
>the Silmarillion. For instance, between Bree and Weathertop, when
>Aragorn is telling some of the story of Beren and Luthien to the
>Hobbits, he talks of the "Great Enemy in the north, of whom Sauron of
>Mordor was only a servant" if I remember the quote correctly. And the
>appendices tell the whole history in abbreviated form. Besides, Tolkien
>had written most of the Silmarlilion by the time he finished LoTR.
>
It's quite possible that Tolkien was referring to the arrival of Sauron in Middle Earth. Sauron did not come over until he was sedu=
Patrick Matthews
>It's quite possible that Tolkien was referring to the arrival of Sauron
>Before that, he was Aule's chief lieutenant, during which he learned
>have gone by a different name in Valinor, I believe, just as Olorin
Sauron most certainly went with a different name when he first entered
Ea. Sauron, like Morgoth, is a name given by the elves, and it's none too
flattering. In fact, in LotR someone (either Gandalf or Faramir) says
that Sauron does not allow his servants to address him with that name.
However, I doubt he ever dwelt in Valinor, as he went over to
Melkor's party before the Valar settled in Aman
Pat
--
Patrick G. Matthews matt...@netaxs.com
As of 7/1/95 1837 Bainbridge St. 215-546-1108 home
Phila., PA 19146 215-299-7524 work
Never feed the hand that bites you. 215-299-7523 fax
Louis Epstein
: Roger Lo (r...@qualcomm.com) wrote:
: >It's quite possible that Tolkien was referring to the arrival of Sauron
: >in Middle Earth. Sauron did not come over until he was seduced by Morgoth.
: >Before that, he was Aule's chief lieutenant, during which he learned
: >some of his ring-making skills. So while the spirit of Sauron (who may
: >have gone by a different name in Valinor, I believe, just as Olorin
: >didn't become Gandalf until he came to ME, so it could also be that the
: >name Sauron did not exist) did exist, it had not arrived yet in ME.
: >Other strange things, meanwhile did come about in ME before his arrival.
: Sauron most certainly went with a different name when he first entered
: Ea. Sauron, like Morgoth, is a name given by the elves, and it's none too
: flattering. In fact, in LotR someone (either Gandalf or Faramir) says
: that Sauron does not allow his servants to address him with that name.
Tolkien said in the Third Age Sauron pretended to be Morgoth.
: However, I doubt he ever dwelt in Valinor, as he went over to
: Melkor's party before the Valar settled in Aman
But when Melkor was in jail in Aman?
Antti Rasinen
Only Tilion (the steersman of the Moon) was attacked in Ilmen, which
is 'The region above the air where the stars are' and not under the Earth.
/// Antti Rasinen <ras...@kontu.bbs.fi> ////////////////////////////
/ "Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!" /
/ The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. /
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Raz ///
--
/// Antti Rasinen <ras...@kontu.bbs.fi> ////////////////////////////
/ "Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!" /
/ The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. /
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Raz ///
Witek Szymanski
> : Melkor's party before the Valar settled in Aman
>
> But when Melkor was in jail in Aman?
The Valar did not do a thorough job of hunting down Morgoth's underlings. The
entire attack was a rather hurried operation. From the Silmarillion, p.52
(Ballantine paperback):
]
Nonetheless the Valar did not discover all the mighty vaults and caverns
hidden with deceit far under the fortresses of Angband and Utumno. Many
evil things still lingered there, and others were dispresed and fled into
the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more
evil hour; and Sauron they did not find.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As for the second capture of Morgoth, Sauron did not go to Aman then either.
Witek
"There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a
man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of
comfortable myths." -- Bertrand Russell
PGP Public Key available by finger or keyserver.
Lars-Einar Fryklof
> However, I doubt he ever dwelt in Valinor, as he went over to
> Melkor's party before the Valar settled in Aman
Surely he dwelt in Valinor, if he was the servant of Aule!
Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
Petri Peltonen
>>flattering. In fact, in LotR someone (either Gandalf or Faramir) says
>>that Sauron does not allow his servants to address him with that name.
>Actually, it's Aragorn, contradicting Gimli's supposition that the "S"
>on the helms of the dead Orcs stands for "Sauron". Thus, from TT, III
>1:
> 'S is for Sauron,' said Gimli. 'That is easy to read.'
> 'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'
> 'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or
> spoken,' said Aragorn....
>Interesting in the context of this discussion is Aragorn's use of the
>phrase "his right name". It appears that JRRT forgot that Aragorn had
>said this (since surely Aragorn wouldn't be "wrong" about such a plain
>assertion), since the Messenger at the Black Gate calls himself "The
>Mouth of Sauron", and consistently refers to his boss by that name in
>describing his demands and intentions.
But doesn't that only imply 'Sauron' isn't his right name, only the
one he and his servants use? That his real name is something totally
different?
Ummm... or then not...
Petrie, who still thinks dragons use telekinesis to fly
--
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* Petri O Peltonen * Animals, *
* Helsinki School of Economics * who are not penguins, *
* Finance Office * can only wish they were. *
* ppel...@karl.hkkk.fi * - Chicago Reader 10/15/82 - *
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Robert S. Coren
Patrick Matthews <matt...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>
>Sauron most certainly went with a different name when he first entered
>Ea. Sauron, like Morgoth, is a name given by the elves, and it's none too
>that Sauron does not allow his servants to address him with that name.
Actually, it's Aragorn, contradicting Gimli's supposition that the "S"
on the helms of the dead Orcs stands for "Sauron". Thus, from TT, III
1:
'S is for Sauron,' said Gimli. 'That is easy to read.'
'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'
'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or
spoken,' said Aragorn....
Interesting in the context of this discussion is Aragorn's use of the
phrase "his right name". It appears that JRRT forgot that Aragorn had
said this (since surely Aragorn wouldn't be "wrong" about such a plain
assertion), since the Messenger at the Black Gate calls himself "The
Mouth of Sauron", and consistently refers to his boss by that name in
describing his demands and intentions.
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Life is easy to chronicle, but bewildering to practice."
--E. M. Forster, _A Room With a View_
Robert S. Coren
>In <DAAq6...@spdcc.com> co...@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) writes:
>
>> 'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'
>> 'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or
>> spoken,' said Aragorn....
>
>>Interesting in the context of this discussion is Aragorn's use of the
>>phrase "his right name". It appears that JRRT forgot that Aragorn had
>>said this (since surely Aragorn wouldn't be "wrong" about such a plain
>>assertion), since the Messenger at the Black Gate calls himself "The
>>Mouth of Sauron", and consistently refers to his boss by that name in
>>describing his demands and intentions.
>
>one he and his servants use? That his real name is something totally
>different?
In the context, it's quite clear that what Aragorn means by "his right
name" is the name "Sauron". As someone pointed out earlier, this
Quenya name was bestowed on him by (I presume) the Noldor in
Beleriand, and was not flattering, so it's perhaps not surprising that
Sauron himself would not use it or allow his servants to use it. But
then later on one of his most trusted servants uses it repeatedly, in
public, ostensibly speaking for his master.
His original name (I don't feel like getting into a quibble about
"real" names) as a Maia and follower of Aule was undoubtedly
"something totally different", but we have absolutely no information
about what it was.
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"You can't have any fun on antennas -- all anyone ever does is
dish." --BBC
Graeme Gill
>study (kch...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>: "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is
>: gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
>: than he."
>Hi Ethan,
> First, welcome to the Internet and to r.a.b.t.
> We know that the 'nameless things' can not actually be older than
>Sauron as he is a maia, but they may have been in Middle Earth before
>him. For this they would need to be maia as well, presumably of a lesser
>power, and would probably be best described as Demons.
> I think it possible that some of these creatures may have been
>used by Morgoth to breed Dragons as the desription does appear to imply
>a worm-like creature. This gives a solution to the 'where did the
>Dragons breed from' problem
It is really a matter of whether one is refering to Sauron in essence or
as a whole. The name Sauron is associated with the evil spirit, the corrupted
Maia. Before his corruption, was the Maia 'Sauron' ? In some ways of speaking
they can be regarded as seperate entities, even though one became the other.
In this way of speaking, 'Sauron' is younger than the Maia, and may well
be younger than many other spirits that were created with, or took abode
in the middle earth.
Graeme Gill.
Patrick Matthews
>> : However, I doubt he ever dwelt in Valinor, as he went over to
>> : Melkor's party before the Valar settled in Aman
>>
>The Valar did not do a thorough job of hunting down Morgoth's underlings. The
>entire attack was a rather hurried operation. From the Silmarillion, p.52
>(Ballantine paperback):
> Nonetheless the Valar did not discover all the mighty vaults and caverns
> hidden with deceit far under the fortresses of Angband and Utumno. Many
> evil things still lingered there, and others were dispresed and fled into
> the dark and roamed in the waste places of the world, awaiting a more
> evil hour; and Sauron they did not find.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>As for the second capture of Morgoth, Sauron did not go to Aman then either.
Thanks for looking up the passage, Witek. I knew Sauron had never been
captured by the Valar, but I lacked the textual proof.
It's a shame Eonwe was such a trusting fool, releasing Sauron on his own
recognizance on condition that Sauron go to manwe to sue for pardon.
Patrick Matthews
>On June 15, Patrick Matthews wrote:
>> However, I doubt he ever dwelt in Valinor, as he went over to
>> Melkor's party before the Valar settled in Aman
>Surely he dwelt in Valinor, if he was the servant of Aule!
The Ainur dwelt in Ea a *long* time before they settled in Aman. Their
first residence was on an island in a lake in the midst of Middle Earth.
(I want to say "Almaren", but I can't remember.) That was when the Lamps
were constructed to light the world. After Melkor and his cohorts
overthrew the lamps and wrecked the Valar's settlement, the Valar removed
to Aman. Sauron defected to Melkor before the move to Aman, as he almost
certainly took part in the attack I mentioned.
Another thing to consider is that the Ainur dwelt with Eru for untold
ages before entering Ea. (The Ainulindale is not specific on this point.)
It is quite conceivable that almost all--indeed, if not all--of "Sauron's"
(as this was not his name as a servant of Aule) apprenticeship occurred
before Sauron entered Ea.
B.S. Blundell
>name" is the name "Sauron". As someone pointed out earlier, this
>Quenya name was bestowed on him by (I presume) the Noldor in
>Beleriand, and was not flattering, so it's perhaps not surprising that
>Sauron himself would not use it or allow his servants to use it. But
>then later on one of his most trusted servants uses it repeatedly, in
>public, ostensibly speaking for his master.
>
>His original name (I don't feel like getting into a quibble about
>"real" names) as a Maia and follower of Aule was undoubtedly
>"something totally different", but we have absolutely no information
>about what it was.
I (again) don't have my books, but I don't think that this is true.
Sauron is in fact his real Maian name, just Melkor is a Valan (?) name.
Their unflattering elvish names were Gorthaur and Morgoth, respectively.
I can't remember what Gorthaur means, although I think that the word
"cruel" figures in somewhere. I've always been puzzled as to why Melkor
is commonly referred to as Morgoth, while Sauron is rarely, if ever,
referred to as Gorthaur.
Cheers,
Boyd
Antti Rasinen
Lars-Eina...@online.idg.se (Lars-Einar Fryklof) wrote:
>On June 15, Patrick Matthews wrote:
>
>> However, I doubt he ever dwelt in Valinor, as he went over to
>> Melkor's party before the Valar settled in Aman
>
>Surely he dwelt in Valinor, if he was the servant of Aule!
He could have been servant of Aule when Valar built Almaren, and when
they went to Aman to establish Valinor, Sauron stayed in M-E.
--
===<Antti Rasinen>===<ras...@kontu.bbs.fi>========================
\ Drink blood. A billion mosquitos can not be wrong. /
\=======================================================<Raz>===/
Graeme Gill
>phrase "his right name". It appears that JRRT forgot that Aragorn had
>said this (since surely Aragorn wouldn't be "wrong" about such a plain
>assertion), since the Messenger at the Black Gate calls himself "The
>Mouth of Sauron", and consistently refers to his boss by that name in
>describing his demands and intentions.
or the author is translating what the messenger said into the name we
(the reader) are expecting.
Graeme Gill.
E.M.P. Pringle
study <kch...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>
>On 9 Jun 1995, James Alexander Chokey wrote:
>
>> In article <Pine.A32.3.91j.95060...@homer10.u.washington.edu,study <kch...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm eleven and I'm using my mom's account.
>>
>>
>> Welcome to r.a.b.tolkien! (By the way, I wouldn't have guessed
>> that you were eleven from your post. You write as well as many of the
>> "adult" readers of this group.)
>>
>> >that Gandalf mentioned that
>> >
>> >gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
>> >than he."
>>
>> like the idea of these nameless things "gnawing" at the earth, as
>> if they were hungrily tearing into it with teeth or mandibles. It's
>> a quite visceral image.
>>
>>
>>
My guess would be that the various ghosts were former humans who for some
reason were temporarily unable to leave Arda in the way of other mortals when
their bodies were killed for some reason. In the case of the paths of the dead
they could not leave because their oath was unfulfilled, and it is my belief
that the wights were in this condition because of some power of the Witch King
(they had fought against Angmar when alive), perhaps akin to the way in which
the Nazgul could have made Frodo a wraith under their control.
Elizabeth.
Robert S. Coren
Klaus Ole Kristiansen <kl...@diku.dk> wrote:
>u890...@muss.cis.McMaster.CA (B.S. Blundell) writes:
>
>>I (again) don't have my books, but I don't think that this is true.
>>Sauron is in fact his real Maian name, just Melkor is a Valan (?) name.
>>Their unflattering elvish names were Gorthaur and Morgoth, respectively.
>>I can't remember what Gorthaur means, although I think that the word
>>"cruel" figures in somewhere. I've always been puzzled as to why Melkor
>>is commonly referred to as Morgoth, while Sauron is rarely, if ever,
>>referred to as Gorthaur.
>
>thaur in Gorthaur comes from the same root as Sauron. Note that
>th does not occur in Quenya, it has become s everywhere. Gor
>means horror.
Indeed. If I remember correctly (for some reason I and the book I need
to refer to are always at different houses), "Sauron" is Quenya,
"Gorthaur" is Sindarin, and they both mean "abhorred" or something
like that. "Melkor" was the Vala's original name, and means "he who
arises in might"; I don't think it's Quenya, actually, but "Valian"
(a language of which few words are extant). "Morgoth", meaning
"Black Enemy", was the name applied to him by Feanor after the theft
of the Silmarils. Actually, since "Morgoth" is clearly Sindarin, it
must be a translation of what Feanor orignally said, since Feanor
would hardly have been speaking Sindarin in Aman.
I don't understand, either, why the Quenya, rather than the Sindarin,
form of Sauron's name is the one that "stuck", unless JRRT just liked
the sound of it better. :-)
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"When angry, count four; when very angry, swear." -- Mark Twain
randy j futor
> In the context, it's quite clear that what Aragorn means by
> "his right name" is the name "Sauron".
As many times as I've read it, this has not once been clear to *me*.
Moreover, as fond of you as I am, even after you point it out, it's not
clear that that's what it means. It's not that I can't see how it could
read that way -- I can.
__
\/ -+- randy -+- all generalizations are flawed -+- fu...@llnl.gov
Andrew Solovay
B.S. Blundell <u890...@muss.cis.McMaster.CA> wrote:
>>In the context, it's quite clear that what Aragorn means by "his right
>>Quenya name was bestowed on him by (I presume) the Noldor in
>>Beleriand, and was not flattering, so it's perhaps not surprising that
>>Sauron himself would not use it or allow his servants to use it. But
>>then later on one of his most trusted servants uses it repeatedly, in
>>public, ostensibly speaking for his master.
>
>Sauron is in fact his real Maian name, just Melkor is a Valan (?) name.
>Their unflattering elvish names were Gorthaur and Morgoth, respectively.
Uh-uh. "Gorthaur" aand "Sauron" are *both* unflattering names given by
the Elves, and I believe they both mean more or less the same thing--
"Abhorred". Note that they both have the same root, "Saur" (==
"thaur").
As for the messenger: Note that there are *two* times when messengers
from Mordor refer to their master as "Sauron": in "The Black Gate
Opens", and when the messenger went to the Lonely Mountain to try to
bribe the Dwarves (as recounted in "The Council of Elrond"). I can
offer two explanations of that:
1. Since the messengers were speaking to outsiders, they referred to
their master by his common name, "Sauron", since that was how he
was known to outsiders.
2. Calling their master Sauron is an in-your-face kind of thing: "I
serve the Great Abhorred One. Nyaah, nyaah." Like a rap group
calling itself "Niggers with Attitude", y'know.
Anyway, the general rule seems to be that Sauron's servants, *when
speaking to each other*, don't call their master "Sauron".
As for Sauron's "real name": It's a common theme that villains in LOTR
are *nameless*. The Mouth of Sauron has forgotten the name. The Nazgul
are known only by epithets (like "The Witch-King")-- that may be why
JRRT axed all references to "Khamul". Saruman just becomes "Sharkey",
the "old man". Gollum has almost forgotten his name-- but when Frodo
tries to rehabilitate him, he insistes on calling him "Smeagol".
So it's hardly odd that Sauron has lost his name, if he ever had one.
--Andrew Solovay <sol...@netcom.com>
"I'm gonna get medieval on your ass!"
--- Marsellus Wallace
Robert S. Coren
randy j futor <fu...@llnl.gov> wrote:
>In article <DACou...@spdcc.com>, co...@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) wrote:
>
>> In the context, it's quite clear that what Aragorn means by
>> "his right name" is the name "Sauron".
>
>
>Moreover, as fond of you as I am
Why, thank you. :-)
>even after you point it out, it's not
>clear that that's what it means. It's not that I can't see how it could
>read that way -- I can.
I'm a little puzzled as to how else it could be read. Gimli asserts
that the "S" stands for "Sauron"; Legolas objects that Sauron doesn't
use Elf-runes; and Aragorn adds "Neither does he use his right
name..."
Why would he introduce this observation other than to add support to
the contention that the "S" doesn't stand for "Sauron"?
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Our attitude's queer and quaint." -- W. S. Gilbert, _The Mikado_
Louis Epstein
: In article <Pine.A32.3.91j.95060...@homer10.u.washington.edu>,
: study <kch...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
: >
: >
: >On 9 Jun 1995, James Alexander Chokey wrote:
: >
: >> In article <Pine.A32.3.91j.95060...@homer10.u.washington.edu,study <kch...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
: >> >
: >>
: >
: > I guess I should have said "Where did they come from?" instead of
: >"What are they?".
: >
: > The balrog, as most of us know, is a corrupted Maiar.
: >
: > Shelob, also, is one of Ungoliant's offspring.
: >
: > But you're right; where _did_ the Watcher in the Water, the evil
: >of Cahadras, etc. come from?
: >
: > Maybe the Watcher is some cross between a squid and a snake made
: >by Melkor and _it_ gnawed the deep _before_ it came out of Moria (i'm
: >only guessing that it _did_ come out of Moria).
: >
: > That still leaves the "ghosts" though...
: >
: > -Ethan, 11 yrs old
: My guess would be that the various ghosts were former humans who for some
: reason were temporarily unable to leave Arda in the way of other mortals when
: their bodies were killed for some reason. In the case of the paths of the dead
: they could not leave because their oath was unfulfilled, and it is my belief
: that the wights were in this condition because of some power of the Witch King
: (they had fought against Angmar when alive), perhaps akin to the way in which
: the Nazgul could have made Frodo a wraith under their control.
How could they be older than Sauron then????
Feagil
some
>: reason were temporarily unable to leave Arda in the way of other
mortals when
>: their bodies were killed for some reason. In the case of the paths of
the dead
>: they could not leave because their oath was unfulfilled, and it is my
belief
>: that the wights were in this condition because of some power of the
Witch King
>: (they had fought against Angmar when alive), perhaps akin to the way in
which
>: the Nazgul could have made Frodo a wraith under their control.
>
>How could they be older than Sauron then????
How could anything be older than Sauron? Eru did make the Ainur first.
Unless by "old" Tolkein ment time spent in ME. Maybe?
ppint.
lep...@j51.com "Louis Epstein" asked:
> E.M.P. Pringle (em...@cus.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
> : In article,
> : <Pine.A32.3.91j.95060...@homer10.u.washington.edu>,
> : study <kch...@u.washington.edu> (ethan) wrote:
> : > On 9 Jun 1995, James Alexander Chokey wrote:
> : >> <Pine.A32.3.91j.95060...@homer10.u.washington.edu>,
> : >> study <kch...@u.washington.edu> (ethan) wrote:
> : >> > I am reading the two towers for the second time, and I noticed
> : >> >that Gandalf mentioned that
> : >> > "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is
> : >> >gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older
> : >> >than he."
> : >> This has always been one of my favorite passages. I particularly
> : >> like the idea of these nameless things "gnawing" at the earth, as
> : >> if they were hungrily tearing into it with teeth or mandibles. It's
> : >> a quite visceral image.
> : >> > Does anybody know what these things ARE?
> : >> > (ethan)
( chop: lots)
> : >> As for what these "nameless things" are or are like-- we have
> : >> only what Tolkien tells us-- which is only that they are nameless,
> : >> ancient (more so than Sauron), and that they "gnaw" at the earth.
( chop)
> : > I guess I should have said "Where did they come from?" instead of
> : >"What are they?".
> : >
(:- snip)
> : >
> : > But you're right; where _did_ the Watcher in the Water, the evil
> : >of Cahadras, etc. come from?
> : >
> : > Maybe the Watcher is some cross between a squid and a snake made
> : >by Melkor and _it_ gnawed the deep _before_ it came out of Moria (i'm
> : >only guessing that it _did_ come out of Moria).
> : >
> : > That still leaves the "ghosts" though...
> : > (Ethan)
> : >
> : My guess would be that the various ghosts were former humans who for
> : mortals when their bodies were killed for some reason. In the case of
> : fulfilled, and it is my belief that the wights were in this condition
> : when alive), perhaps akin to the way in which the Nazgul could have made
> : Frodo a wraith under their control.
> : (e.m.p.)
> :
> How could they be older than Sauron then????
>
>
- literally, they _cannot_ be (so long as the one did not create
them before the maiar), but in the sense that melkor, sauron and
e.g. the balrogs were not originally in middle earth, it is quite
possible that unpleasant, and downright nasty things existed in
middle earth before melkor's fall, and therefore sauron did not
know of them, at least until he came across them or was told of
their existence.
- whether or not any _evil_ beings could pre-exist melkor's fall,
i leave to older and wiser (?) heads, but things that we find un-
pleasant, dangerous and/or nasty are not necessarily _evil_. what
they do innocently to survive, cannot be so termed, even if it may
on occasion happen to involve someone's getting killed and/or eaten.
- love, ppint.
--
"the life of a vegetable is of no interest to anyone whatsoever -
including to the vegetable in question. i speak from personal experience."
- ppint. at the sf, fantasy and horror book and role-playing game shop,
interstellar master traders, lancaster
@#$%!?!
lifeless and chaotic. Some primeval life or consciousness--not
necessarily intelligence--might have existed at that stage. In
that case, such stirrings would predate the Valar with respect
to Arda.
--
In fearless youth when passions leapt, | smr...@netcom.com PO Box 1563
he sought the treasures silence kept | Cupertino, California
in chambers chilled where chanting stilled,| (xxx)xxx-xxxx 95015
where bleaching bones were bleakly kept. | intolerance kills
E.M.P. Pringle
>E.M.P. Pringle (em...@cus.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
>: In article <Pine.A32.3.91j.95060...@homer10.u.washington.edu>,
>: study <kch...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>: >
>: >
>: >On 9 Jun 1995, James Alexander Chokey wrote:
>: >
>: >> In article <Pine.A32.3.91j.95060...@homer10.u.washington.edu,study <kch...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>: >> >
>: >>
>: >
>: > I guess I should have said "Where did they come from?" instead of
>: >"What are they?".
>: >
>: > The balrog, as most of us know, is a corrupted Maiar.
>: >
>: > Shelob, also, is one of Ungoliant's offspring.
>: >
>: > But you're right; where _did_ the Watcher in the Water, the evil
>: >of Cahadras, etc. come from?
>: >
>: > Maybe the Watcher is some cross between a squid and a snake made
>: >by Melkor and _it_ gnawed the deep _before_ it came out of Moria (i'm
>: >only guessing that it _did_ come out of Moria).
>: >
>: > That still leaves the "ghosts" though...
>: >
>: > -Ethan, 11 yrs old
>
>: My guess would be that the various ghosts were former humans who for some
>: reason were temporarily unable to leave Arda in the way of other mortals when
>: their bodies were killed for some reason. In the case of the paths of the dead
>: they could not leave because their oath was unfulfilled, and it is my belief
>: that the wights were in this condition because of some power of the Witch King
>: (they had fought against Angmar when alive), perhaps akin to the way in which
>: the Nazgul could have made Frodo a wraith under their control.
>
I didn't say these particular ghosts were, although that doesn't mean that
there were no other ghosts of mortals who were unanble to leave for other
reasons which were older. However, given the comparitively late appearance of
Men compared to the events of the Forst Age, there couldn't be any all THAT
old.
Simon Krahnke
>> Surely he dwelt in Valinor, if he was the servant of Aule!
I am quite sure Sauron had _never_ been to Aman.
> He could have been servant of Aule when Valar built Almaren, and when
> they went to Aman to establish Valinor, Sauron stayed in M-E.
How could Morgoth have a chance to corrupt him in Valinor? Sauron was
Morgoth's servant before Morgoth was brought to Valinor, since it
mentioned that he was master of Angband when Morgoth was in Utomno.
ar, simon .... 2
--
Einkauf bei Edeka 1,2 kg Milka-Schokolade, 4 * Obstgarten.
Antti Rasinen
>(a language of which few words are extant). "Morgoth", meaning
>"Black Enemy", was the name applied to him by Feanor after the theft
>of the Silmarils. Actually, since "Morgoth" is clearly Sindarin, it
>must be a translation of what Feanor orignally said, since Feanor
>would hardly have been speaking Sindarin in Aman.
Are all the names (well, not all, only those who were in M-E)
in The Silmarillion translated into Sindarin? Like Feanaaro -> Feanor,
?????? -> Morgoth.. Are there more of these?
Robert S. Coren
Antti Rasinen <ras...@kontu.bbs.fi> wrote:
>Are all the names (well, not all, only those who were in M-E)
>in The Silmarillion translated into Sindarin? Like Feanaaro -> Feanor,
>?????? -> Morgoth.. Are there more of these?
Now you mention it, pretty well all the names of the Noldorin exiles
appear to be Sindarin in form (as well as my inexpert eye can judge):
Fingolfin, Fingon, Orodreth, Turgon... And we're not given Quenya
equivalents for most (any) of these. Voronwe appears to be an
exception. This makes "Sauron" a little puzzling, but there it is. I
assume that the tales are all "as reported" by people who spoke
Sindarin, hence the Sindarin forms of the names.
In the BoLT, there are a lot more cases of names being given in
alternate forms, but the linguistic situation, always complicated,
changed a lot between the time of writing of BoLT and most of what we
know as the _Silmarillion_. (The names themselves were far from stable
in the various MSs of BoLT, anyway.)
--
-------Robert Coren (co...@spdcc.com)-------------------------
"Pass a moose through a fine sieve, add 3 beaten egg whites and a
cup of light cream. Stir thoroughly and put into individual
ramekins. Serves 53, more or less." -- Robert Gilbert, _Moose Mousse_
Louis Epstein
: In article <KbMwlCZw...@kontu.bbs.fi>,
: Antti Rasinen <ras...@kontu.bbs.fi> wrote:
: >Are all the names (well, not all, only those who were in M-E)
: >in The Silmarillion translated into Sindarin? Like Feanaaro -> Feanor,
: >?????? -> Morgoth.. Are there more of these?
: Now you mention it, pretty well all the names of the Noldorin exiles
: appear to be Sindarin in form (as well as my inexpert eye can judge):
: Fingolfin, Fingon, Orodreth, Turgon... And we're not given Quenya
: equivalents for most (any) of these.
The -gon element in Quenya was -kano,thus Finkano,Turkano.A fair number
of never written equivalents are deducible...Ondonore (Gondor),for example.
Robert Shirley
>
> >> Surely he dwelt in Valinor, if he was the servant of Aule!
>
> I am quite sure Sauron had _never_ been to Aman.
>
> > He could have been servant of Aule when Valar built Almaren, and when
> > they went to Aman to establish Valinor, Sauron stayed in M-E.
>
> How could Morgoth have a chance to corrupt him in Valinor? Sauron was
> Morgoth's servant before Morgoth was brought to Valinor, since it
> mentioned that he was master of Angband when Morgoth was in Utomno.
Here's some more fuel for the fire.
Sauron is Quenya for 'The Abhorred'
In Sindarin it is Gorthaur.
But he went by other names as well in Middle-earth.
When "tempting" the elves in Ost-in-Edhil he was in a fair form
and went by several names:
Annatar - Lord of Gifts
Artano - HighSmith
Aulendil - meaning a follower of Aule
Sauron took care to keep his two sides of enemy and tempter
distinct.
As to when he was seduced by the 'dark side' that is in question.
But if he was in Valinor before his fall and in the train of Aule,
then Galadriel would have known who he was when he appeared in
Eregion.
Also, the name Sauron was used prior to 1600 SA, but his identity
as such was not positively known until 1600 when the One Ring
was forged and the elves finally truely knew who their tempter was.
Then he became their enemy.