History course at UVIC

[ZOOKSTER]

Hi everyone - Just thought I'd post about an excellent course I'm currently
taking at the University of Victoria - It's called "History 380A - The
Created Medieval History of J.R.R. Tolkiens's Middle Earth" - studying the
imaginary history of middle earth (presented in the History of Middle Earth,
by Tolkien) - talk about facinating, and shows Tolkiens brilliance so much
more than just reading Lord of the Rings, or The Hobbit, or the Unfinished
Tales, or any of his other publications. It's like "Silmarillion II++" I'm
fortunate to be in the class, the waiting list was long to get in (200
seats). Finding out things that I never had any idea about, the
Silmarillion is good, but there is so much more to Middle Earth than I
thought!

Great course!

[tenworld]

so instead of Cliff notes do you use the movie DVDs?

[Taemon]

On 24-1-2013 21:40, tenworld wrote:
> On Thursday, January 24, 2013 8:28:53 AM UTC-8, ZOOKSTER wrote:
>> Hi everyone - Just thought I'd post about an excellent course I'm currently
>> taking at the University of Victoria - It's called "History 380A - The
>> Created Medieval History of J.R.R. Tolkiens's Middle Earth"

> so instead of Cliff notes do you use the movie DVDs?

Where did that come from?

T.

[ZOOKSTER]

Naw - we do have bits and pieces from the movies as a backdrop for breaks,
but the course material is really intense and not something for the casual
reader or movie consumer - never heard of Cliffs notes, what are they?


"tenworld" <t...@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:269f12e9-d7df-4b68...@googlegroups.com...

[Steve Morrison]

ZOOKSTER wrote:

> Naw - we do have bits and pieces from the movies as a backdrop for breaks,
> but the course material is really intense and not something for the casual
> reader or movie consumer - never heard of Cliffs notes, what are they?

Little yellow and black booklets for students with plot summaries and
analysis, study questions, etc. They're the U.S. version of Coles Notes
if that helps. If it doesn't, here is the Wikipedia entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CliffsNotes

[Michael Stemper]

Here's their notes for _The Lord of the Rings_:

<http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/literature/lord-of-the-rings.html>

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about architecture" - Thelonious Monk

[tenworld]

it was meant as humor. As far back as my high school days I remember instances where people got in trouble for writing book reviews based on watching the much changed movie version. I also "deeply disappointed" my English teacher when I one time bought Cliff notes for Pride & Prejudice, a type of book they really should be banned.
>

[Taemon]

On 25-1-2013 22:06, tenworld wrote:

> On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:45:05 PM UTC-8, Taemon wrote:
>> On 24-1-2013 21:40, tenworld wrote:
>>> On Thursday, January 24, 2013 8:28:53 AM UTC-8, ZOOKSTER wrote:
>>>> Hi everyone - Just thought I'd post about an excellent course I'm currently
>>>> taking at the University of Victoria - It's called "History 380A - The
>>>> Created Medieval History of J.R.R. Tolkiens's Middle Earth"
>>> so instead of Cliff notes do you use the movie DVDs?
>> Where did that come from?
> it was meant as humor. As far back as my high school days I remember instances
> where people got in trouble for writing book reviews based on
watching the much
> changed movie version.

Ah. I thought it was an uncalled-for stab at the movies. Yeah, I coursed
by on summaries... I stopped reading for years after the mandatory high
school reading list.

Got ten points for the Lord of the Rings, though :-)

T.

[tenworld]

On Friday, January 25, 2013 1:31:04 PM UTC-8, Taemon wrote:
> On 25-1-2013 22:06, tenworld wrote:
>
> Ah. I thought it was an uncalled-for stab at the movies.

No I like the movies, even while I wish PJ had done some things differently. I dont feel he changed thangs as drastically as some posters, but unlike eg the legend of Davy Crockett, many people feel only a Tolkien should should change the meanings. In fact I am happy PJ didnt change as much as other authors I like.

[Bill O'Meally]

On 2013-01-25 17:37:17 +0000, Michael Stemper said:

>
> Here's their notes for _The Lord of the Rings_:
>
> <http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/literature/lord-of-the-rings.html>

These notes are far better!

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/homework.htm

--
Bill O'Meally

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message <news:kdutik$fb3$2...@speranza.aioe.org>
Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
>

<snip>

> Ah. I thought it was an uncalled-for stab at the movies.

Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

Smile
a while
ere day
is done
and all
your gall
will soon
be gone.
- Piet Hein, /Advice at Nightfall/

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message <news:UjdMs.119816$kN2....@fed02.iad>
"ZOOKSTER" <ZOOK...@ATOMIC.HEAD> spoke these staves:

>
> Hi everyone - Just thought I'd post about an excellent course I'm
> currently taking at the University of Victoria - It's called
> "History 380A - The Created Medieval History of J.R.R. Tolkiens's
> Middle Earth"

It's great to hear that the course is good :-)

Searching a bit for some more specifics I've found a PDF with a
course description:
<http://www.uvic.ca/humanities/history/assets/docs/380a_a01_spring_haskett.pdf>
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/ajeateb>
and a radio interview with professor Haskett (the last 15 - 20
minutes of the programme):
<http://uvic.dailysplice.com/UintheRing/9295/>

In the interview (which is from the start of December), Haskett says
that the course will be focusing on /The Silmarillion/ and
/Unfinished Tales/ with a little bit of /The Hobbit/ and a little
more (but still not much) of /The Lord of the Rings/ with a few bits
of European medieval history sources thrown in for good measure
(sounds absolutely fascinating). Is he keeping to that recipe, or
does he also throw in, say, parts from the twelve volumes of /The
History of Middle-earth/ (there's some things, in particular in the
last three volumes, that I think would be fascinating to include,
though given most students' book-budget, I suppose he'd have to find
a way to share the texts without requiring that the students buy the
books -- I know that there are provisisions for copying for
education in Danish copyright law).

The university is of course also proud to show that the news about
the course have been taken up in the media:
<http://www.uvic.ca/humanities/history/home/news/current/haskett-lotr.php>
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/aa5fh99>

But please do fill us in on the details as the course evolves ;-)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

To make a name for learning
when other roads are barred,
take something very easy
and make it very hard.
- Piet Hein, /Wide Road/

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:28:53 -0800, ZOOKSTER wrote:
>
> Hi everyone - Just thought I'd post about an excellent course I'm currently
> taking at the University of Victoria - It's called "History 380A - The
> Created Medieval History of J.R.R. Tolkiens's Middle Earth"

As W. S. Gilbert wrote in /The Mikado/, "Modified rapture!"

I'm delighted to hear about the course, but saddened to hear that
it's in the history department. It belongs in literature, not
history.

<rant>
Does it matter? I think it does. More and more in politics and
public policy, the line between fantasy and objective reality is
blurred by people who have an axe to grind. Think global warming,
health care, and gun policy, for just three examples. Look at the
Science Channel showing /Firefly/ -- a wonderful series, but it's not
science. And look at the History Channel dramatizing the Bible --
interesting literature, but it's not history.

Now Tolkien is getting the same treatment. Much as I love the world
of Middle-earth and Aman, it's not history, and calling it history is
just one more milestone in the relentless dumbing down of people.
</rant>


--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

[Taemon]

On 26-1-2013 11:52, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:kdutik$fb3$2...@speranza.aioe.org>
> Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:

>> Ah. I thought it was an uncalled-for stab at the movies.
> Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron ;-)

I'm soo tired of that :-(

T.

[John W Kennedy]

On 2013-01-26 16:48:07 +0000, Stan Brown said:

> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:28:53 -0800, ZOOKSTER wrote:
>>
>> Hi everyone - Just thought I'd post about an excellent course I'm currently
>> taking at the University of Victoria - It's called "History 380A - The
>> Created Medieval History of J.R.R. Tolkiens's Middle Earth"
>
> As W. S. Gilbert wrote in /The Mikado/, "Modified rapture!"
>
> I'm delighted to hear about the course, but saddened to hear that
> it's in the history department. It belongs in literature, not
> history.
>
> <rant>
> Does it matter? I think it does. More and more in politics and
> public policy, the line between fantasy and objective reality is
> blurred by people who have an axe to grind. Think global warming,
> health care, and gun policy, for just three examples. Look at the
> Science Channel showing /Firefly/ -- a wonderful series, but it's not
> science. And look at the History Channel dramatizing the Bible --
> interesting literature, but it's not history.
>
> Now Tolkien is getting the same treatment. Much as I love the world
> of Middle-earth and Aman, it's not history, and calling it history is
> just one more milestone in the relentless dumbing down of people.
> </rant>

"I much prefer history, true or feigned...."

I first encountered the Trojan War in a history textbook (V. M.
Hilyer's legendary "A Child's History of the World").

--
John W Kennedy
"Give up vows and dogmas, and fixed things, and you may grow like That.
...you may come to think a blow bad, because it hurts, and not because
it humiliates. You may come to think murder wrong, because it is
violent, and not because it is unjust."
-- G. K. Chesterton. "The Ball and the Cross"

[Taemon]

On 26-1-2013 19:39, John W Kennedy wrote:
> "I much prefer history, true or feigned...."
> I first encountered the Trojan War in a history textbook (V. M. Hilyer's
> legendary "A Child's History of the World").

For the longest time, I didn't even know if the Trojan War did actually
happen. And it took me years to realise that that story about King
Arthur wasn't actually true. I concur with Stan.

T.

[Paul S. Person]

On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 13:06:27 -0800 (PST), tenworld <t...@world.std.com>

wrote:

>On Thursday, January 24, 2013 11:45:05 PM UTC-8, Taemon wrote:
>> On 24-1-2013 21:40, tenworld wrote:
>>
>> > On Thursday, January 24, 2013 8:28:53 AM UTC-8, ZOOKSTER wrote:
>>
>> >> Hi everyone - Just thought I'd post about an excellent course I'm currently
>>
>> >> taking at the University of Victoria - It's called "History 380A - The
>>
>> >> Created Medieval History of J.R.R. Tolkiens's Middle Earth"
>>
>> > so instead of Cliff notes do you use the movie DVDs?
>
>> Where did that come from?
>
>it was meant as humor. As far back as my high school days I remember instances where people got in trouble for writing book reviews based on watching the much changed movie version. I also "deeply disappointed" my English teacher when I one time bought Cliff notes for Pride & Prejudice, a type of book they really should be banned.
>>

My English teacher was disappointed to the point of being visibly
upset when, having read it, I told him that I had no idea of what
/Pride & Prejudice/ was even about, never mind why it would be
considered worth reading.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."

[Paul S. Person]

For a long time, in the opinion of the "cultured disbelievers", it
didn't.

Well, not until Schliemann dug up Troy, anyway.

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message <news:ke13k8$bv2$1...@speranza.aioe.org>

Taemon <Tae...@zonnet.nl> spoke these staves:
>

> On 26-1-2013 11:52, Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron ;-)
>
> I'm soo tired of that :-(

What?? Tired of flippant jokes? Surely not, they are the life and soul
of AFT/RABT!

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your
feeling of what reality "ought to be".
- Richard Feynman

[de...@pointerstop.ca]

Except if "Pride & Prejudice" and such books were banned, how would Cliff's make a living...

[yes, I know what you meant, but having aced the test for Wuthering Heights - a book I never had any intention of reading - by memorizing a 1 page précis, I'm hard-pressed to understand what I was supposed to have learned by reading that "type of book"]

[de...@pointerstop.ca]

On Saturday, January 26, 2013 12:48:07 PM UTC-4, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:28:53 -0800, ZOOKSTER wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone - Just thought I'd post about an excellent course I'm currently
> > taking at the University of Victoria - It's called "History 380A - The
> > Created Medieval History of J.R.R. Tolkiens's Middle Earth"
>
> As W. S. Gilbert wrote in /The Mikado/, "Modified rapture!"
>
> I'm delighted to hear about the course, but saddened to hear that
> it's in the history department. It belongs in literature, not
> history.

Yeah.

> Look at the
> Science Channel showing /Firefly/ -- a wonderful series, but it's not
> science. And look at the History Channel dramatizing the Bible --
> interesting literature, but it's not history.

To be fair, a fair bit of the bible (post-Moses, before the Prophets) is more "historical" than a great deal of the stuff on the History Channel. When it first started up, people were calling it "the World War II Movie Channel". I don't watch much TV, but at my sister's place recently the brother-in-law was watching the "History Channel" for two nights straight: modern day gold prospecting all evening on day 1, and "Mountain Men" all evening on day 2.

[de...@pointerstop.ca]

For the longest time, _nobody_ knew if the Trojan war really happened. Now we pretty much accept that Troy itself existed, but I don't think there's any certainty about the war.

As for Arthur - I studied _that_ in a history course at the University of Waterloo 35 years ago, and it _was_ history. Essentially studying everything from Giraldis Cambrensis and Geoffrey of Monmouth to Chrétien de Troyes and looking any kernels of historical "truth" (and no, not much of that to be found).

[Paul S. Person]

Yes, well, that's the problem, isn't it?

Some years had a theme, such as the development of the American Novel
(I read at least two Natty Bumbo novels that year, in addition to the
required stuff), but all too often, there was no discernable reason
why any particular book was chosen, never mind what utterly nebulous
"lesson" you were supposed to learn from it.

And some of the choices! Hard as /Pride & Prejudice/ was to get
through, and incomprehensible as it was, it was, at least, readible.
Mary Shelley's /Frankenstein/ turned out to be completely impossible
to read in any meaningful sense of word. Which was very disappointing
after reading Bram Stoker's /Dracula/.

But such is the nature of a 60's liberal education: nothing more than
a series of utterly useless hoops to jump through, and incoherent to
boot.

[Paul S. Person]

I don't watch TV (I watch my DVDs on my TV, but I don't watch TV as
such), but I doubt very much if anyone is even interested in the
historical parts of the Bible. The films and series I have seen all
appear to be stuck in Genesis, not one of the more historical parts,
although there have been those who find the Patriarchs to fit right
into the culture of about 2000 BC -- but most of them see the
Patriarchs as entire tribes, not as specific individuals.

Archaeology is no help because it is divided ideologically into those
who believe the Bible is a field guide and those who think it is
hooey, with a very few in the middle willing to work scientifically.
So you can find opinions on historicity on all sides, and no
certainty, at least, not from archaeology.

But, yes, Samuel and Kings in particular have a lot of material that
appears to be historic. It's hard to imagine why some of the episodes
reported would have been preserved if they were not genuine, as they
don't make any sense at all as fiction, never mind as myth.

[Michael Stemper]

Yeah, I considered adding those as well.

They're certainly more entertaining than the Cliff version, which completely
squeezed any life out of what they wrote.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him talk like Mr. Ed
by rubbing peanut butter on his gums.

[j]

Hi - this is my preferred moniker - not ZOOKSTER (That was an alternate
newreader at a friends computer)

The course is very good - Dr Haskett is a great speaker, and has
researched this topic very well - a lot of the course is taken from the
"History of Middle Earth" with some of the material that has alternate
plot (written by Tolkien) that is not included in the Silmarillion. The
Silmarillion is one of the course textbooks, but also some writings of
actual medieval scenarios (10th century poem about Brithnoth and the
vikings, and JR's interpretation of it)

It is a History course, since Tolkien was not really a literary writer,
he was a historian, and the History of Middle Earth covers 3 ages - the
Years of the Valar, the Years of the Trees, and the Years of the Sun -
altogether about 16000 years, a lot of material to cover!!

Very very interesting and a lot to cover!

[tenworld]

On Saturday, January 26, 2013 8:48:07 AM UTC-8, Stan Brown wrote:
> Now Tolkien is getting the same treatment. Much as I love the world
>
> of Middle-earth and Aman, it's not history, and calling it history is
>
> just one more milestone in the relentless dumbing down of people.
>
> </rant>

If the intent was to teach how LOTR affected history (it certainly has had a lot of effect on financials and what movies we now see and the proliferation of computer/video games), I could see it in a history department. And studying something that is of interest as a way of teaching methods for analyzing history is a liitle weaker but also could fit.

Losing sight that Tolkien wrote fantasy fiction is in the same vein as arguing about TV shows as though they are real and then I would agree its part of dumbing down.

[j]

Yes - it' not history, but if you take the work of Tolkien as a created
history, it does stand up to the test, which only goes to show how really
brilliant he was! That's the whole thing, it's an imagined history, but
so complete, it's astounding; he wrote the history as a backdrop to all
the fantasy stories he could have written, given about 3-4 lifetimes!

[j]

"j" <j...@j.org> wrote in message news:p%zNs.148723$W71.1...@fed07.iad...

Update on the course - it's finally reading break! What an intense course -
and so interesting, from a different perspective! I'm the type of person
who likes to learn interesting facts about reality that I can use, but this
is so completely different that what I am accustomed to, it's like an
alternate reality! Some of the links I have picked up here are also very
helpful - thank you to the authors of those posts :-)

j

[j]

Well - the course is finished and it was excellent! Dr Haskett may be
offering it in the spring next year. So if anyone is interested in visiting
beautiful Victoria BC and enrolling for 13 weeks at the University, it is
well worth it in aiding your understanding of the book! Dr Haskett has a lot
of insite and pointed out things that no one would even think of in the
normal way if you were just reading the books.

A very worthwhile investment of time! :-)

j


"j" <j...@j.org> wrote in message news:7NGNs.125604$z83....@fed12.iad...

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message <news:ABW8t.138267$FN1....@fed06.iad>
"j" <j...@j.org> spoke these staves:

>
> Well - the course is finished and it was excellent!

Thank you for the reports -- good to hear that you've enjoyed it.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thouroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest.
- Piet Hein, /The Eternal Twins/