Thoughts on the Book of Lost Tales
Troels Forchhammer
Nothing special about that, but this is, I think, the first time I have
sat down and really read it from end to end. I have read it before --
or most of it -- but haphazardly a chapter here and a half chapter
there without system (other than on a 'need to know' basis), and I must
have skipped parts, because some things have struck me forcefully that
I did not remember seeing before.
There are in particular two things that have struck me as most
significant:
1: How much of the later structure that is already in evidence at this
early stage of Tolkien's 'developing mythology' (to use Christopher
Tolkien's (CJRT) words in the last page). Related to this is CJRT's
assertions that many things were maintained in his father's mind in the
later stages of this development even if they are not mentioned; I
suspect that he is speaking from explicit knowledge -- that his father
spoke with him about the mythology and that these conversations
demonstrated to CJRT that many aspects were still an integral part of
JRRT's conception, though they had never been mentioned since he wrote
BoLT.
2: The strong influence of 'fate,' of the Music, on the events of Arda,
and in particular for the Elves. This is much more explicit in BoLT
than in the later, post-LotR, stages of the mythology, though I also
agree with Verlyn Flieger that 'all the implications remain in the
published version.' (_Splintered Light_ Ch.15, p.130). Thus, in the
draft for 'The Music of the Ainur' (BoLT1), Tolkien explicitly stated
that the gift to Men was 'free will and the power of fashioning and
designing beyond the original music of the Ainu.' (BoLT1 Ch.2, note 12,
p.59) But also in the later descriptions of Melko's [sic] corruption of
the Gnomes in Valinor, where it is asked 'Nay, who shall say but that
all these deeds, even the seeming needless evil of Melko, were but a
portion of the destiny of old?' (BoLT1 Ch.6, p.156) and later in the
same chapter (p.167) this is emphasized again:
In sooth it is a matter for great wonder, the subtle
cunning of Melko -- for in those wild words who shall say
that there lurked not a sting of the minutest truth, nor
fail to marvel seeing the very words of Melko pouring from
F�anor his foe, who knew not nor remembered whence was the
fountain of these thoughts; yet perchance the [?outmost]
origin of these sad things was before Melko himself, and
such things must be -- and the mystery of the jealousy of
Elves and Men is an unsolved riddle, one of the sorrows at
the world's dim roots.
(_The Book of Lost Tales 1_ Ch. 6, p. 167)
The meaning is clearly that these events were 'fated' -- that they were
inevitable.
Other things are, of course, also noteworthy. In the first narrative
setting, what CJRT calls the 'Eriol story,' Tol Eress�a really _is_
England, and in the later narrative setting, the '�lfwine story,'
England is still a crucial element -- the old land of the Elves that is
explicitly and deliberately copied in Tol Eress�a. Thus these first
stages of Tolkien's mythology appear to me not only, as Carpenter put
it, a 'mythology _for_ England' (emphasis mine), but actually a
mythology _about_ England. This aspect gradually faded (it is still
detectable in the early Silmarillion texts).
And now for reading Rateliff's _The History of The Hobbit_ . . . :-)
(Cross-posted to the rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.fan.tolkien and
alt.books.inklings at the behest of members of these erudite
communities)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they
are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not
refer to reality.
- Albert Einstein
Morgoth's Curse
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>I have just finished reading _The Book of Lost Tales_ 1 and 2 (BoLT).
>Nothing special about that, but this is, I think, the first time I have
>sat down and really read it from end to end. I have read it before --
>or most of it -- but haphazardly a chapter here and a half chapter
>there without system (other than on a 'need to know' basis), and I must
>have skipped parts, because some things have struck me forcefully that
>I did not remember seeing before.
< snip insightful analysis >
You neglected to mention which was your favorite tale! ;-)
The only comment that I have to add is that, IMHO, the influence of
the Greek myths is most obvious in the Book of Lost Tales 1. In the
second book and in all volumes of HOME thereafter the similarity to
Hellenic mythology fades and is replaced by Norse mythology and, in
Tolkien's last writings, by Christian theology.
Morgoth's Curse
Paul S. Person
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>I have just finished reading _The Book of Lost Tales_ 1 and 2 (BoLT).
>Nothing special about that, but this is, I think, the first time I have
>sat down and really read it from end to end. I have read it before --
>or most of it -- but haphazardly a chapter here and a half chapter
>there without system (other than on a 'need to know' basis), and I must
>have skipped parts, because some things have struck me forcefully that
>I did not remember seeing before.
>
>There are in particular two things that have struck me as most
>significant:
>
>1: How much of the later structure that is already in evidence at this
>early stage of Tolkien's 'developing mythology' (to use Christopher
>Tolkien's (CJRT) words in the last page). Related to this is CJRT's
>assertions that many things were maintained in his father's mind in the
>later stages of this development even if they are not mentioned; I
>suspect that he is speaking from explicit knowledge -- that his father
>spoke with him about the mythology and that these conversations
>demonstrated to CJRT that many aspects were still an integral part of
>JRRT's conception, though they had never been mentioned since he wrote
>BoLT.
There are several places, later on in /HOME/, where he states that,
just because the text under discussion has been compressed and doesn't
mention <whatever>, that does not mean that <whatever> has been
abandoned. IIRC, there is also at least one place where one of the
<whatever>s reappears in a less-compressed version of a story done
after a compressed one. But personal knowledge may well have also been
a factor -- although this is the same CJRT who, faced with his
father's note "Christopher insists on <something, IIRC, in LOTR>", had
to admit that he had no idea whatsoever why he insisted on it.
<snippo Fate>
>Other things are, of course, also noteworthy. In the first narrative
>setting, what CJRT calls the 'Eriol story,' Tol Eress�a really _is_
>England, and in the later narrative setting, the '�lfwine story,'
>England is still a crucial element -- the old land of the Elves that is
>explicitly and deliberately copied in Tol Eress�a. Thus these first
>stages of Tolkien's mythology appear to me not only, as Carpenter put
>it, a 'mythology _for_ England' (emphasis mine), but actually a
>mythology _about_ England. This aspect gradually faded (it is still
>detectable in the early Silmarillion texts).
I have always understood Carpenter as meaning that the original goal
was to create, for England, a mythology in the same sense that other
nations had their mythologies, particularly the Norse. Since these
other national mythologies are about their nation, so would JRRT's
mythology be about England.
There have been occasional discussions about "filming the
Silmarillion". How about a TV series using Eriol, pulled from the Sea
by monks, telling them about The Cottage of Lost Play, Tol Eressea,
and the stories he heard there?
Did you note the first entry in the Glossary (part I, IIRC): the one
defining "Ainur" as "the pagan gods" and CJRT's note that this could
only be said by someone standing /outside/ the mythology. In other
words, that, originally, JRRT considered the Ainur to be "gods", not
merely "angelic beings".
>And now for reading Rateliff's _The History of The Hobbit_ . . . :-)
I hope you enjoy it! I surely did!
>(Cross-posted to the rec.arts.books.tolkien, alt.fan.tolkien and
>alt.books.inklings at the behest of members of these erudite
>communities)
--
Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, "I never knew him."
Troels Forchhammer
Morgoth's Curse <morgoths...@nospam.yahoo.com> spoke these
staves:
> On Sat, 27 Jun 2009 11:56:50 +0200, Troels Forchhammer
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>
>>I have just finished reading _The Book of Lost Tales_ 1 and 2
[...]
>
> < snip insightful analysis >
Thank you! <bows>
> You neglected to mention which was your favorite tale! ;-)
There is so much to choose from, but on the whole I think it is 'The
Music of the Ainur.'
'The Tale of the Sun and Moon' is also a great read -- there seems to
be a vigour and a sheer joy of telling that shines through in this
tale.
One cannot ignore, of course, the three great -- here 'The Tale of
Tin�viel', 'Turambar and the Foal�k�', and 'The Fall of Gondolin' --
but I don't think they reach the quality level promised in later
retellings. It is, of course, interesting to read full tale of the sack
of Gondolin -- it makes me quite sad that Tolkien abandoned the
retelling just as Tuor set eyes on the hidden city for the first time.
'The Tale of E�rendel' is another saddening read -- the potential
revealed in the sketches and outlines for another great tale is so
enticing that realizing that it never came to anything is
disheartening.
> The only comment that I have to add is that, IMHO, the influence
> of the Greek myths is most obvious in the Book of Lost Tales 1.
Anything in particular that you're thinking of?
Overall I think that the inspirations for BoLT1 are more generic, more
difficult to pinpoint precisely because they deal with generic matters:
cosmogony (though that one is clearly more inspired by Christian
theology), the explanation of the astronomical bodies, the origin of
the species, etc. Unfortunately it's been very long since I looked at
the Mediterranean mythologies so I can't remember if there's anything
there that would fit things in the early history of the Eldar.
I'm rambling, I think ;-) The point is that I've forgot most of what I
learned about Greek and Roman myths, so that could be the reason why I
don't see any obvious influences.
> In the second book and in all volumes of HOME thereafter the
> similarity to Hellenic mythology fades and is replaced by Norse
> mythology and, in Tolkien's last writings, by Christian theology.
In terms of the external history of his writings, I think, apart from
Christian theology, it starts mainly with northern myth, actually:
English elves (and E�rendel), Finnish Kullervo and a Norse feeling. Not
that that necessarily refutes what you say since the history of the
Elves' sojourn in Valinor is not where Tolkien started.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic.
- Arthur C. Clarke, /Profiles of The Future/, 1961
(Also known as 'Clarke's third law')
calvin
wrote:
> Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2...@nospam.yahoo.com> spoke these
> staves:
> > ...
> > You neglected to mention which was your favorite tale! ;-)
>
> There is so much to choose from, but on the whole I think it is 'The
> Music of the Ainur.'
And yet you don't want others to enjoy it literally as music,
which seems oddly inconsistent. I'm sure you will say that
others are welcome to enjoy anything however they like,
but you will argue until the cows come home that the Music
could not literally have been music, so I don't feel that
welcome in your presence to want to hear it.
Troels Forchhammer
<a2c26523-e8d6-43c4...@c9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
calvin <cri...@windstream.net> spoke these staves:
>
> And yet you don't want others to enjoy it literally as music,
> which seems oddly inconsistent. I'm sure you will say that
> others are welcome to enjoy anything however they like,
> but you will argue until the cows come home that the Music
> could not literally have been music, so I don't feel that
> welcome in your presence to want to hear it.
I am truly sorry to hear that you feel like this about our discussion.
The primary purpose of the discussion for me is to explore and refine
my own position and to learn / practise putting it into words. The
latter is, perhaps, more important to me because English isn't my
native language and I am often unsure, being in doubt as to how much
any a lack of common understanding is due to the inadequacy of my
expression (usually because I use words and phrases common to English
and Danish with Danish connotations that do not exist in English) --
this possibly also leads me to continue a bit further than necessary,
wanting to be sure that I can explain my position clearly. And of
course, discussing is what we do, and to have one's views challenged is
a part of that -- and on-topic discussions are far too precious to let
go too easily ;-)
But while I'll argue my position, and explain why it is superior for
me, there is not, in my intention, any disrespect of contending views
(not unless I find it to be _explicitly_ refuted by the text, which is
not relevant in the case of your interpretation of the _Ainulindal�_).
We all have our different styles of discussing, and in my experience it
is better to just call a stop and then let it be if you feel the
discussion has gone on for more than enough -- there is _always_
someone who will continue further than yourself.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
It is the theory which decides what can be observed.
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
calvin
wrote:
> calvin <cri...@windstream.net> spoke these staves:
> > And yet you don't want others to enjoy it literally as music,
> > which seems oddly inconsistent. I'm sure you will say that
> > others are welcome to enjoy anything however they like,
> > but you will argue until the cows come home that the Music
> > could not literally have been music, so I don't feel that
> > welcome in your presence to want to hear it.
>
> I am truly sorry to hear that you feel like this about our discussion.
You have done nothing wrong and said nothing wrong.
The fault is entirely my own. You express yourself better
in English than I do, and English is my native language
I was disappointed originally in the 'time travel' thread
that my desire to travel all the way back to the Creation
was the only desire met with derision (not by you) in that
thread. I've continued to be petulant about it. The Music
is my favorite part too of Tolkien's creation, but there
seems to be no way to share it.
I also find it wonderful that I can literally see a Silmaril in
the sky, sometimes in the morning and sometimes in the
evening, still on Earendel's brow, yet that can't be shared
either. Maybe it is profoundly true that we are alone in our
thoughts.
Troels Forchhammer
<a14d8524-f2cc-4246...@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>
>
<snip>
> The Music is my favorite part too of Tolkien's creation, but there
> seems to be no way to share it.
Actually I think that the _Ainulindal�_ is also my favourite tale of
them all (or 'most favourite favourite' <GG>), though there are so
much good to choose from, and my 'favourite' is likely to change with
my mood.
I do make some distinctions when discussing Tolkien's works --
between my experience when reading the text, my analysis of the sub-
created 'reality' that the text describes and the text as a work of
art in the primary world. Some of these can even be varied (as e.g.
per the discussion of Nagy's text -- to look at all the variant texts
as we would look at the variants of a myth in the primary world --
the texts for the V�lsunga saga, for instance, that Tolkien retold in
the Lay of Sigurd and G�drun).
Many readers, as far as I know, envision the plot and the world
vividly, but I don't do that when I read the text, nor do I 'hear'
the plot -- for me the enchantment is in the words themselves rather
than in any images or sounds they conjure; but I am still able to
accept them as 'true' while reading (i.e. of secondary belief).
Still, insofar as I do imagine anything when reading, I, too, tend to
'hear' the singing of the Ainur as traditional music (symphonic,
actually) since I am even more limited than the Eldar, but I tend to
separate that experience from my analysis of the actual secondarily
historical events the story textualizes.
But when it comes down to the actual imagining, I don't think our
reading experiences are miles apart (except that your inner picture
is probably far more vivid than mine).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
"He deserves death."
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve
death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to
them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in
judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
- Frodo and Gandalf, /The Fellowship of the Ring/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Stan Brown
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid>:
> Many readers, as far as I know, envision the plot and the world
> vividly, but I don't do that when I read the text, nor do I 'hear'
> the plot -- for me the enchantment is in the words themselves rather
> than in any images or sounds they conjure;
I wonder: do you think not being a native English speaker(*) deepens
your appreciation for the words? I know that when I read French
authors in the original I enjoyed the words as much as the tales.
(*) I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to say that Danes are not
native English speakers. :-) As far as I can see, virtually every
Scandinavian born after about World War II speaks English as well as
most Americans.
> Still, insofar as I do imagine anything when reading, I, too, tend
> to 'hear' the singing of the Ainur as traditional music (symphonic,
> actually)
I think Haydn captured some of their music in /The Creation/. There
are several choruses of angels in it, with "pipes and trumpets and
viols", and whenever I listen to it I think of the Ainulindal�.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Derek Broughton
> On Jun 27, 6:43 pm, Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid>
> wrote:
>> Morgoth's Curse <morgothscurse2...@nospam.yahoo.com> spoke these
>> staves:
>> > ...
>> > You neglected to mention which was your favorite tale! ;-)
>>
>> There is so much to choose from, but on the whole I think it is 'The
>> Music of the Ainur.'
>> ...
>
> And yet you don't want others to enjoy it literally as music,
> which seems oddly inconsistent.
Not at all - in more than one sense. Why should enjoying _any_ story rely
on everybody enjoying it the same way? But in any case, I said, and Troels
may have said, I don't recall, that _we_ don't take it literally. There's no
reason nobody else should. My disagreement with you hasn't been over
whether you should, but that I have had some trouble with your description
of "literal", which doesn't seem quite literal.
--
derek
Troels Forchhammer
Paul S. Person <pspe...@ix.netscom.com.invalid> spoke these staves:
>
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>
<snip>
> There are several places, later on in /HOME/, where he states
> that, just because the text under discussion has been compressed
> and doesn't mention <whatever>, that does not mean that <whatever>
> has been abandoned.
Exactly.
<snip>
>> Other things are, of course, also noteworthy. In the first
>> narrative setting, what CJRT calls the 'Eriol story,' Tol Eress�a
>> really _is_ England, and in the later narrative setting, the
>> '�lfwine story,' England is still a crucial element -- the old
>> land of the Elves that is explicitly and deliberately copied in
>> Tol Eress�a. Thus these first stages of Tolkien's mythology appear
>> to me not only, as Carpenter put it, a 'mythology _for_ England'
>> (emphasis mine), but actually a mythology _about_ England. This
>> aspect gradually faded (it is still detectable in the early
>> Silmarillion texts).
>
> I have always understood Carpenter as meaning that the original
> goal was to create, for England, a mythology in the same sense
> that other nations had their mythologies, particularly the Norse.
> Since these other national mythologies are about their nation, so
> would JRRT's mythology be about England.
That is close to what Tolkien wrote himself in letter #131:
Also - and here I hope I shall not sound absurd - I was
from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved
country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its
tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and
found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands. There
was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian,
and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but nothing
English, save impoverished chap-book stuff. Of course there
was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is,
it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of
Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I
felt to be missing.
(_Letters_ #131)
However, I think there is something in especially BoLT that doesn't
quite match that ambition -- or rather, that goes beyond that
ambition. Tolkien speaks of stories "bound up with its tongue and
soil" in a way that fits exactly with what I see in BoLT, but which
goes beyond what I see in the Norse mythology or in the others that I
know about (admittedly mostly the Greek, and even that not very
well). BoLT is concerned with explaining the _soil_ of England
specifically at a level that doesn't, as far as I know, happen in the
ancient mythologies; there the focus is on cosmological explanations,
on explaining the forces of nature, the social order, and 'correct'
behaviour. A large part of Scandinavian legends naturally take place
in the Scandinavian lands, but the legends aren't really "_bound
up_" with the soil of the Scandinavian lands the way Tolkien's early
mythology is with English soil -- the Scandinavian legends could be
displaced to other lands and still make sense, but the framing story
of the BoLT can't simply be relocated from England; neither the
Eriol story in which Tol Eress�a physically _is_ England nor in the
�lfwine story in which Tol Eress�a is, to the Elves, a kind of 'New
England': a recreation of the physical locations of England.
That is what I mean by the difference between the mythology _about_
England rather than _for_ England. Tolkien seems only to a lesser
degree concerned about the people, the social order and the social
conventions of the people he identifies as the true English
(primarily the Angels, apparently), but he is more concerned with
ascerting their right to the English lands and (in the �lfwine story)
elevating their language by letting it be the language spoken also by
the Elves in Tol Eress�a.
It may be me -- I may misunderstand what is in the mythologies
Tolkien mentions, or I may be reading too much into Tolkien's early
mythology, but as it stands, I can't help but feel that the reference
to the other mythologies and the phrase 'a mythology for England'
misses something that was essential to Tolkien.
> There have been occasional discussions about "filming the
> Silmarillion". How about a TV series using Eriol, pulled from the
> Sea by monks, telling them about The Cottage of Lost Play, Tol
> Eressea, and the stories he heard there?
Or �lfwine, yes, I think it could be made to work, though I'm not
sure I'd be a good audience for such an adaptation: I'm afraid that I
would have the same problem as with the New Line Cinema films -- when
they modernize the thematic content they must, perforce, change
things in ways that Tolkien wouldn't have approved of, and I cannot
help but to find it distasteful.
> Did you note the first entry in the Glossary (part I, IIRC): the
> one defining "Ainur" as "the pagan gods" and CJRT's note that this
> could only be said by someone standing /outside/ the mythology. In
> other words, that, originally, JRRT considered the Ainur to be
> "gods", not merely "angelic beings".
Actually I'm not sure it's quite that simple. The Ainur are the pagan
Gods, but they are also created beings under Eru. I wonder if there
was any medieval thinkers who thought that (some of?) the pagan gods
were actually angelic beings that the pagans mistook for gods?
>>And now for reading Rateliff's _The History of The Hobbit_ . . .
>
> I hope you enjoy it! I surely did!
I am thoroughly enjoying it, though progress is regrettably slow (I
find it difficult to find time to do much reading these days).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
The "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your
feeling of what reality "ought to be".
- Richard Feynman
calvin
> ... My disagreement with you hasn't been over
> whether you should, but that I have had some
> trouble with your description
> of "literal", which doesn't seem quite literal.
"... Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes,
and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like
unto countless choirs singing with words, began to
fashion the theme of Iluvatar to a great music;..."
Stan Brown
for the first time in several years.
I'm now at "The Coming pf the Valar and the Building of Valinor". I
was fascinated to see how much of the Ainulindal� seems every
familiar from the version published in /Silm/ -- as CRT says, the
Ainulindal� is unlike most of JRRT's writings in that there is a
clear textual continuity from the original version to the latest.
On the other hand, I was surprised to see Makar and his sister, who
had seemed set to play a Loki-like role: not exactly of the Valar,
but not exactly in opposition to them either. I wonder how they wold
have developed if Tolkien had not eliminated them in later versions
of the tales.
I had forgotten how much Ambarkanta-type material there was in BoLT:
different airs and waters. Frankly, I find that stuff boring.
Paul S. Person
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
<snippo>
>On the other hand, I was surprised to see Makar and his sister, who
>had seemed set to play a Loki-like role: not exactly of the Valar,
>but not exactly in opposition to them either. I wonder how they wold
>have developed if Tolkien had not eliminated them in later versions
>of the tales.
I've always thought of Makar and Makasse (I can only hope I spelled it
correctly) as versions of Ares and Athena.
I suspect that JRRT decided that Morgoth was quite enough along those
lines.
Troels Forchhammer
>
<reinstating previous message>
>> Prompted by Troels' original comments, I've started rereading
>> BoLT for the first time in several years.
What more could I hope for ;-) I found that it was a fascinating read
in many ways, and now I'm curious if it feels different as a reread?
>> I'm now at "The Coming pf the Valar and the Building of Valinor".
>> I was fascinated to see how much of the Ainulindal� seems every
>> familiar from the version published in /Silm/ -- as CRT says, the
>> Ainulindal� is unlike most of JRRT's writings in that there is a
>> clear textual continuity from the original version to the latest.
I think it is unique in one more way -- or at least stands out in it's
structural stability and the stability of its elements. The only major
change to the main part of the tale (that which is in the
'Ainulindal�' section of the published _Silmarillion_) was to introduce
the vision and the explicit creative moment ('E�!'). Apart from this,
the changes are, IMO, very minor (in the BoLT Eru explicitly sang the
Ainur into existence just as E� was created directly by the Music
rather than being foresung -- overall I think there is a much more
explicit focus on the sub-creative power of music in BoLT).
Even the notorious 'Round-world version' from the fourties doesn't
touch this part of the Ainulindal� -- the differences being to the part
dealing with the Valar and the Maiar in E�.
>> On the other hand, I was surprised to see Makar and his sister,
>> who had seemed set to play a Loki-like role: not exactly of the
>> Valar, but not exactly in opposition to them either. I wonder
>> how they wold have developed if Tolkien had not eliminated them in
>> later versions of the tales.
>
> I've always thought of Makar and Makasse (I can only hope I
> spelled it correctly) as versions of Ares and Athena.
I also found Makar and Me�ss� a strange element. As it is, they don't
get much action and are, frankly, easily dispensable.
For one who is familiar with the later version of the mythology they
appear oddly out of place -- strangers in the same way as Tevildo, but
while I think Tevildo wasn't necessarily a narrative dead end and could
have been developed, I don't get the same impression about Makar and
Me�ss� -- they didn't lead anywhere (not that Tolkien was always averse
to unecessary narrative embellishments).
> I suspect that JRRT decided that Morgoth was quite enough along
> those lines.
I think a more clearly Loki-type trickster figure could have been an
advantage to the mythology -- one who could have contributed to the
breaches in the defences of Valinor but with rather more ignoble
motives than Ulmo. Makar and Me�ss� with their focus on weapons and
battle seem less able to provide the plot with twists or momentum
(perhaps if there had been the same kind of rivalry between them as
between Ares and Athena Tolkien could have created a plot twist with
one backing the Orcs and one backing the Gnomes).
>> I had forgotten how much Ambarkanta-type material there was in
>> BoLT: different airs and waters. Frankly, I find that stuff
>> boring.
I was fascinated with Tolkien's use of light as a substance. For one
thing I was taken back to my history of physics where 'light-
substance,' or 'l�miere,' was once on the list of elements (I have a
1799 textbook on science -- one of the first in Danish -- that lists
light-substance and heat-substance among the elements). It may be that
this connection influences me, but I do find the idea of light as a
substance floating in the air and being collected in vats to hold a
certain poetic beauty.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thoroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest.
- Piet Hein, /The Eternal Twins/
Steve Morrison
> On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:56:14 -0400, Stan Brown
> <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> <snippo>
>
>> On the other hand, I was surprised to see Makar and his sister, who
>> had seemed set to play a Loki-like role: not exactly of the Valar,
>> but not exactly in opposition to them either. I wonder how they wold
>> have developed if Tolkien had not eliminated them in later versions
>> of the tales.
>
> I've always thought of Makar and Makasse (I can only hope I spelled it
> correctly) as versions of Ares and Athena.
And I had thought of them as simply resembling the Aesir, who were a
bloodthirsty crew even without Loki.
Paul S. Person
wrote:
I guess that my ignorance of non-Greek/Roman mythology is pretty clear
at this point ... oh, well.
Noel Q. von Schneiffel
wrote:
> In message <news:2vf455djop3tj1thh...@4ax.com>
> Paul S. Person <psper...@ix.netscom.com.invalid> spoke these staves:
>
>
> > I suspect that JRRT decided that Morgoth was quite enough along
> > those lines.
>
> I think a more clearly Loki-type trickster figure could have been an
> advantage to the mythology -- one who could have contributed to the
> breaches in the defences of Valinor but with rather more ignoble
> battle seem less able to provide the plot with twists or momentum
> (perhaps if there had been the same kind of rivalry between them as
> between Ares and Athena Tolkien could have created a plot twist with
> one backing the Orcs and one backing the Gnomes).
Now that is an interesting line of thought - could Makar and Meásse
(or one of them) have actually ended up as orc gods this way? It would
certainly have helped the orcs gain some independence from Morgoth and
Sauron. (I hope Bqggz doesn't read this; he'd love this theory.)
I actually liked Makar and Meásse in BoLT, even though they were never
much developed. They were providing a "grey area" between good and
evil - short-tempered, warlike, not very popular, but still grudgingly
accepted in the pantheon of Valinor. I think the mythology could have
benefitted from this. Of course, I see how it would clash with the
Christian good/evil dualism.
Noel
Troels Forchhammer
>
> <rim...@toast.net> wrote:
>>
>>Paul S. Person wrote:
>>>
>>> I've always thought of Makar and Makasse (I can only hope I
>>> spelled it correctly) as versions of Ares and Athena.
>>
>> And I had thought of them as simply resembling the Aesir, who were
>> a bloodthirsty crew even without Loki.
So are most of the other Valar in BoLT -- remember what they did to
Melko's ambassador and the discussions after the Gnomes had left
(where only Ulmo counselled leniency and Manw� cried . . .).
I never saw Makar and Me�ss� as resembling any Aesir, though I think
the comparison to Loki is apt -- the main characteristic of the
siblings is, IMO, their role as positioned between Melko and the rest
of the Valar -- formally allied with the Valar, but occasionally
siding with Melko (and always on the side of strife and confusion).
> I guess that my ignorance of non-Greek/Roman mythology is pretty
> clear at this point ... oh, well.
The description of 'Ainu' and 'Aini' as 'pagan god' and '- goddess'
respectively in the Quenya Lexicon (QL) obviously calls for this kind
of hunting similarities, but ultimately I don't think the Ainur in
BoLT matches any real-world pantheon well enough for this kind of
one-to-one-fitting to make sense, but they incorporate ideas and
motifs from at least the Greek, Roman, Celtic, Finnish and Norse
mythologies, and sometimes we can discuss single elements and
identify them -- for instance Manw� surveying all the world at the
top of Taniquetil reminds me of Odin surveying all the world from his
high seat, Hli�skjalf, and the Rainbow bridge from Valinor (in the QL
glossed as Asgard) of course reinforces the Norse connections.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are
subtle and quick to anger.
- Gildor Inglorion, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Troels Forchhammer
Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> spoke these staves:
> Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:59:06 GMT from Troels Forchhammer
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid>:
>>
>> Many readers, as far as I know, envision the plot and the world
>> vividly, but I don't do that when I read the text, nor do I
>> 'hear' the plot -- for me the enchantment is in the words
>> themselves rather than in any images or sounds they conjure;
>
> I wonder: do you think not being a native English speaker(*)
> deepens your appreciation for the words? I know that when I read
> French authors in the original I enjoyed the words as much as the
> tales.
I suppose that there is an element of that involved as well, though
I'd also have to say that the enchantment is in the words about
reading in Danish. The odd thing is that if I stop reading, I can
close my eyes while still under the enchantment and see images, but I
rarely have time for that.
One thing that I know positively to affect my appreciation of the
words when I read English is the richness of the language -- it is a
grief to me that written Danish has lost its ability to express
dialect and that all texts are invariably modernized when a new
edition is made (that includes _everything_ -- the Bible,
Kierkegaard, Hans Christian Andersen, Ludvig Holberg, Grundtvig . . .
the only exception being a few psalms in the standard book of hymns
and psalms of the Church of Denmark). The ability in English to vary
the language three-dimensionally (both in time and in place)
contributes to the experience of depth in the book: especially, of
course, when done by a true master such as Tolkien.
Proficience is another thing that matters -- if I were to start
reading German more seriously I would have to be _very_ attentive to
the words, but I don't think they'd hold any enchantment for me until
I had practiced enough to expand me vocabulary considerably .
> (*) I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to say that Danes are not
> native English speakers. :-) As far as I can see, virtually every
> Scandinavian born after about World War II speaks English as well
> as most Americans.
You should at least not judge the average capability by what you see
here -- the level exhibited by the Scandinavians here (and of nearly
every other Scandinavian I've come across on usenet) is quite a bit
above average (even if some of us Tolkien fans probably have a
slightly outdated vocabulary -- on the other hand it's good to know
of oast, barner and byre ;-)
>> Still, insofar as I do imagine anything when reading, I, too,
>> tend to 'hear' the singing of the Ainur as traditional music
>> (symphonic, actually)
>
> I think Haydn captured some of their music in /The Creation/.
> There are several choruses of angels in it, with "pipes and
> trumpets and viols", and whenever I listen to it I think of the
> Ainulindal�.
Good choice. I have a piece in mind, but I can't remember neither
name nor composer, I'm afraid (that's only slightly less helpful than
what I do remember -- I think it's been used in a film at some point,
and though it is at places rather more pompous than my usual
preferences, I don't think it is Wagner).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom
of thought which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard
Stan Brown
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid>:
> In message <news:MPG.24b455ba9...@news.individual.net>
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> spoke these staves:
> > (*) I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to say that Danes are not
> > native English speakers. :-) As far as I can see, virtually every
> > Scandinavian born after about World War II speaks English as well
> > as most Americans.
>
> You should at least not judge the average capability by what you see
> here -- the level exhibited by the Scandinavians here (and of nearly
> every other Scandinavian I've come across on usenet) is quite a bit
> above average (even if some of us Tolkien fans probably have a
> slightly outdated vocabulary -- on the other hand it's good to know
> of oast, barner and byre ;-)
Nope, not just judging by Usenet. One of the high points of my life
was a month in Scandinavia and Finland in 1994. I didn;t spend much
time in the countryside, but in the cities everyone's English was
excellent.
The only time I ever had to use my (rudimentary) Danish was on a
train trip from Kobenhavn to Vejle. I was sitting across from a
grandmother who was traveling to Thisted, and she had even less
English than I had Danish. My accent was so vile that we ended up
supplementing our conversation with pencil and paper.
Troels Forchhammer
<33de0fc9-2ad4-432a...@o6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>
"Noel Q. von Schneiffel" <noel.von....@fats.teunc.org>
spoke these staves:
> On 6 Jul., 23:59, Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid>
> wrote:
>>
Makar and Me�ss� in _The Book of Lost Tales_
>> Makar and Me�ss� with their focus on weapons and battle seem less
>> able to provide the plot with twists or momentum (perhaps if
>> there had been the same kind of rivalry between them as between
>> Ares and Athena Tolkien could have created a plot twist with one
>> backing the Orcs and one backing the Gnomes).
>
> Now that is an interesting line of thought - could Makar and
> Me�sse (or one of them) have actually ended up as orc gods this
> way? It would certainly have helped the orcs gain some
> independence from Morgoth and Sauron.
That could provide an extra ironic twist to the whole thing -- Makar
or Me�ss� trying to ingratiate him- or herself to Melko, but ending
up being definitely on the wrong side of Melko because the Orcs
started to view them as a competing god, gaining a much unwanted (by
Melko) independence from Melko. All of this should, of course, have
been triggered by Melko's own attempts to lure the other over to his
side.
> (I hope Bqggz doesn't read this; he'd love this theory.)
Well, Bqggz is a reasonably intelligent and well-behaved Orc, and I
am impressed with your generosity that you let him use your PC (or
didn't you know? He is posting from your IP-address), so I am sure
that he will be able to deal with it in a civilized manner -- just
because he'd love the theory doesn't necessarily mean that he'll go
on a blood-letting rampage, does it?
> I actually liked Makar and Me�sse in BoLT, even though they were
> never much developed. They were providing a "grey area" between
> good and evil - short-tempered, warlike, not very popular, but
> still grudgingly accepted in the pantheon of Valinor. I think the
> mythology could have benefitted from this. Of course, I see how it
> would clash with the Christian good/evil dualism.
Yes, I also quite liked the idea of their being in the mythology, but
I don't think they offered many, if any, routes of development. Not
that their unchristian moral mid-tones would have stopped Tolkien in
BoLT (though quite possibly it would have meant that they would not
have survived into the post-LotR era) -- it is simply, I believe,
that they didn't offer the same possibilities for development as the
surviving Ainur did. I agree, however, that the mythology would have
benefitted from having one or more Valar that could occupy this moral
grey-zone.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters.
- Aragorn "Strider", /Two Towers/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Noel Q. von Schneiffel
wrote:
>
> > (I hope Bqggz doesn't read this; he'd love this theory.)
>
> Well, Bqggz is a reasonably intelligent and well-behaved Orc, and I
> am impressed with your generosity that you let him use your PC (or
> didn't you know? He is posting from your IP-address), so I am sure
> that he will be able to deal with it in a civilized manner -- just
> because he'd love the theory doesn't necessarily mean that he'll go
> on a blood-letting rampage, does it?
I know, I know. He sneaks into my house whenever I am not looking and
uses my computer. I suggested he should finally buy internet access
for himself, but he says he's saving the money so that he can give
more to his idiotic communist party.
I can't really find out how Bqggz does it. I'm keeping my windows shut
day and night, and I also changed the lock on my door, but that does
not stop him. Currently I believe that he oozes in through my water
tap like some kind of alien slime.
Concerning blood-letting rampages, he goes on one of those every day
at noon. He calls it "lunch".
Noel
John Wright
It was a huge grief to Tolkien that Britain appeared to have lost most
of its folk heritage largely through the Norman Invasion - and that was
apparently one motivation for the writing of the "Mythology for England"
that was the LOTR (and all the other works). This makes him a true
master IMHO.
--
John Wright