Re: Repsot: 20 Questions - Troels
Troels Forchhammer
In message <news:7k82e7F...@mid.individual.net>
Tamf Moo <liddle...@yahoo.com> spoke these staves:
>
|: This one must be 'mineral' (which I interpret rather broadly
|: to cover all inorganic matter of Arda/E").
|: 1: The breadbox question.
|: No (bigger)
|: 2: Does it occur in only one of the books (ie. eg.
|: only in the LotR, only in The Hobbit etc.)?
|: It figures in only one of the major books (Silm, CoH,
|: TH, LotR). I have not checked the more fragmented
|: books (UT and the HoMe).
|: 3. is it a solid object?
|: It is solid, yes
|: 4. Is it natural or manufactured?
|: To cut the long philosophical discussion short,
|: I'd call it natural.
|: 5. Is it shiny?
|: Nope.
|: 6. Is it a part of a landscape?
|: Yes, it is a feature of geography
|: 7. Is it a mountain?
|: No, not a mountain.
|: -- Then I'll ask the expanded breadbox question ---
|: 8. Is it bigger than a bus?
|: 'Tis hard to say for sure, but I believe it is --
|: and I am certain that whatever the volume there is
|: at least one dimension in which this feature is
|: larger than a bus . . .
|: 9. Hm. Is the certainty that it is taller than a bus, but
|: may be shorter and/or narrower?
|: Yes
|: 10. Did Frodo see it, or at least be near it?
|: Aye, he did.
|: 11. Was it located west of Anduin?
|: No.
|: 12. An Argonath?
|: No.
|: 13. Was it located in Gondor?
|: Yes, it was within the borders of Gondor at its largest
|: (I'm not sure where exactly Gondor's eastern borders were
|: at the time of the War of the Ring).
|: 14. Is it a passage of some sort?
|: No.
|: 15. Is it a singular feature, or are there many similar objects?
|: There is at least one other similar object, though smaller
|: in size.
|: 16. is it a rock?
|: Hmm . . . I believe it would be an appropriate description.
|: 17. Is it the Silent Watchers?
|: No, not the Silent Watchers
|: 18. A Pukelman?
|: Not a P�kel-man either, no
>
> 19. can it be found near a dwelling-place?
That, obviously, depend on how you define 'near' and 'dwelling-
place,' but as I interpret them, the answer is no.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left
the path of wisdom.
- Gandalf, /The Fellowship of the Ring/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Raven
news:Xns9CABC38D...@130.133.1.4...
Back on the net. Oh Ainur, how did we ever manage ten years ago with
dial-up modems, or fifteen years ago with web access only from university,
or twenty years ago without anything of the sort at all? Same way our
palaeolithic longfathers managed with stone tools, I suppose: they didn't
miss indoor plumbing and 75 year average life spans because these things
were beyond their experience and comprehension.
Seems we go beyond twenty questions.
20: Frodo saw or was near it, and it was east of Anduin. Did Frodo
encounter it before he parted with Faramir in Ithilien?
Hr�fn.
Troels Forchhammer
"Raven" <jon.lennart.be...@mail.its.in.danmark> spoke
these staves:
>
|: 'dwelling-place,' but as I interpret them, the answer
|: is no.
>
> Frodo saw or was near it,
Yes -- he saw it _and_ was near it :-)
> and it was east of Anduin.
I never said that.
> 20. Did Frodo encounter it before he parted with Faramir
> in Ithilien?
Before
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
The major problem [encountered in time travel] is quite
simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this
matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveller's
Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations.
- Douglas Adams, /The Restaurant at the End of the Universe/
Raven
> I never said that.
Then it seems to have been *in* the Great River.
> |: 20. Did Frodo encounter it before he parted with Faramir
> |: in Ithilien?
> Before
Then I will guess that it is an island in the river. The similar object
smaller in size may then be the Carrock. I guess at ---
21: Is it Tol Brandir?
Cr�.
Troels Forchhammer
"Raven" <jon.lennart.be...@mail.its.in.danmark> spoke
these staves:
>
<snip>
Sorry if I take you rather more seriously than you did yourself :-)
> Back on the net.
Home, sweet home :-)
> Oh Ainur, how did we ever manage ten years ago with dial-up
> modems,
With patience . . .
And we never dreamed that we could ever have the kind of bandwidth we
have today.
> or fifteen years ago with web access only from university,
That was fun :-)
We sent the occasional e-mail and read some newsgroup articles on
aspects of programming . . . (ok, I mostly read a jokes group -- and
once half-trolled a political group on Labour Day ;-)
> or twenty years ago without anything of the sort at all?
Oh, wait a moment -- that post to a political group ('alt.politics'
if I recall correctly) _was_ twenty years ago; or twenty-two, I
believe.
Back in ye olden days we used to meet most evenings down at one of my
mates and listen to music. During summers we usually went down to get
an ice or we toured the park on our bikes (you had to know the path
pretty well -- there was a place with a sudden turn where you'd end
in a big tree if you didn't know it: something my best mate's little
brother once found out because we forgot to mention it to him . . .)
Oh, then we had scouting once a week . . . I still have that, though
:-)
> Same way our palaeolithic longfathers managed with stone tools,
> I suppose: they didn't miss indoor plumbing and 75 year average
> life spans because these things were beyond their experience
> and comprehension.
And that is also precisely why we can't turn back the clock. A Danish
national institute on construction research (Statens
Byggeforskningsinstitut) has recently said that we need to cut down
on the number of TV sets and computers per capita, but I don't
believe that this is possible at all, however much we'd like to think
so. When I was a kid we had one TV set in the house, and we had three
channels to choose from (one Danish and two Swedish), but today each
of my kids have their own TV set, and they have a far wider choice of
channels. This becomes not only within our experience and
comprehension, but it becomes the norm, necessary even. When my kids
grow up and have their own homes, they will probably have a media
outlet in every room, so the researchers who advocate less consumer
electronics are, IMO, being unrealistic.
So, as we can't turn back time, we need instead to find out how to
use our 'always on-line' presence in the best way -- and, frankly,
AFT and RABT are _still_ among my favourite ways to spend my on-line
time.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the
world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
- Aragorn, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Troels Forchhammer
"Raven" <jon.lennart.be...@mail.its.in.danmark> spoke
these staves:
> "Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> skrev i
Precisely.
This was why I chose to snip the summary someone did and replace the
full list of questions and anwers.
>> |: 20. Did Frodo encounter it before he parted with Faramir in
>> |: Ithilien?
>>
>> Before
>
> Then I will guess that it is an island in the river.
That would be a reasonable inference, yes ;)
> The similar object smaller in size may then be the Carrock.
Yup
> I guess at ---
> 21: Is it Tol Brandir?
Ding-ding-ding!
According to Rateliff's discussion in _The History of the Hobbit: Mr
Baggins_ Tolkien actually called it 'the Great Carrock' before
settling on the Sindarin name, and I took this as a good indication
that these two islands were very similar in general shape.
I was first inclined to say that it was not 'a rock', but I
remembered in time that its English name is the Tindrock, which is
why I had to acknowledge that I believe that 'a rock' would be an
appropriate description.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.
- /Reaper Man/ (Terry Pratchett)
Raven
>> Oh Ainur, how did we ever manage ten years ago with dial-up
>> modems,
> With patience . . .
And a look to the purse --- the longer you stayed online the more you had
to pay the phone company. The big web sites with lots of ads were beyond
both patience and finance - until I got the broadband connection with a
fixed subscriber fee. Much better. :-)
> And we never dreamed that we could ever have the kind of bandwidth we
> have today.
And tomorrow we can probably stream several movies simultaneously, at a
resolution that makes today's High Definition look like VHS.
>> or fifteen years ago with web access only from university,
> That was fun :-)
Needing to contact �rhus University from University of Florida during
three months in 1993 was how I learnt about email and FTP - the latter after
trying to fax a whole wad of material across the Atlantic.
> And that is also precisely why we can't turn back the clock. A Danish
> national institute on construction research (Statens
> Byggeforskningsinstitut) has recently said that we need to cut down
> on the number of TV sets and computers per capita, but I don't
> believe that this is possible at all, however much we'd like to think
> so. When I was a kid we had one TV set in the house, and we had three
> channels to choose from (one Danish and two Swedish), but today each
> of my kids have their own TV set, and they have a far wider choice of
> channels. This becomes not only within our experience and
> comprehension, but it becomes the norm, necessary even. When my kids
> grow up and have their own homes, they will probably have a media
> outlet in every room, so the researchers who advocate less consumer
> electronics are, IMO, being unrealistic.
Yes. The realistic thing is a technological fix, where consumer
electronics become less environmentally burdensome to manufacture and use.
Not just to make more luxuries-turned-normal for us in the rich part of the
world, but also for the up-and-coming third-worlders.
> So, as we can't turn back time, we need instead to find out how to
> use our 'always on-line' presence in the best way -- and, frankly,
> AFT and RABT are _still_ among my favourite ways to spend my on-line
> time.
Same here. But perhaps such as we *are* just dribbling old dodderers ---
Ravn.
Dirk Thierbach
> According to Rateliff's discussion in _The History of the Hobbit: Mr
> Baggins_ Tolkien actually called it 'the Great Carrock' before
> settling on the Sindarin name, and I took this as a good indication
> that these two islands were very similar in general shape.
Interesting. Now that you mention it, I looked for it in HoME, and
it's also discussed in HoME VII.
And for some reason, I've always pictured the Carrock *beside* the
river, not in it. Obviously I wasn't paying enough attention when
reading the Hobbit :-(
BTW, is it known which language the element /car/ is from (looks
vaguely celtic), and it's meaning? "Rock-rock"? "River-rock"? "Sharp-rock"?
> I was first inclined to say that it was not 'a rock', but I
> remembered in time that its English name is the Tindrock, which is
> why I had to acknowledge that I believe that 'a rock' would be an
> appropriate description.
And while I'm asking stupid questions, is the element /tin/ "sharp end"
recognizable for native English speakers? Or has this meaning been
obscured by the name for the metal?
- Dirk
JJ
wrote:
> And while I'm asking stupid questions, is the element /tin/ "sharp end"
> recognizable for native English speakers? Or has this meaning been
> obscured by the name for the metal?
>
> - Dirk
The points of a fork are called 'tines'.
Derek Broughton
> On Oct 23, 6:51 am, Dirk Thierbach <dthierb...@usenet.arcornews.de>
> wrote:
>> And while I'm asking stupid questions, is the element /tin/ "sharp end"
>> recognizable for native English speakers? Or has this meaning been
>> obscured by the name for the metal?
Not really. There's very little "tin" in our language.
> The points of a fork are called 'tines'.
The OED says "tine" is from "tind", German "Zinne", "pinnacle" - is that the
same sense of tin, Dirk?
Tinder, is from a different form of "tind", meaning "kindle". Tinsel is
from a root meaning "spark", which could be related.
Tingle and tinkle are cognate, but I can't figure out their etymology from
the OED. Nothing to do with sharp ends, anyway.
--
derek
Troels Forchhammer
<news:20091023055121...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de>
Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> spoke these staves:
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> According to Rateliff's discussion in _The History of the Hobbit:
>> Mr Baggins_ Tolkien actually called it 'the Great Carrock' before
>> settling on the Sindarin name, and I took this as a good
>> indication that these two islands were very similar in general
>> shape.
>
> Interesting. Now that you mention it, I looked for it in HoME, and
> it's also discussed in HoME VII.
Yes, Rateliff cites HoMe, but I still haven't got around to buy vols.
6 through 8, so I had to cite Rateliff ;-)
> And for some reason, I've always pictured the Carrock *beside* the
> river, not in it. Obviously I wasn't paying enough attention when
> reading the Hobbit :-(
My picture is that it is only a small ford that separates the Carrock
from the eastern brink, and the main body of the Anduin flows west of
the Carroc.
> BTW, is it known which language the element /car/ is from (looks
> vaguely celtic), and it's meaning? "Rock-rock"? "River-rock"?
> "Sharp-rock"?
Rateliff also discusses this element, citing several examples in
England, but starts by noting that the name 'derives from a dialectal
Old English (Old Northumbrian) borrowing from the Celtic.'
Rateliff's discussion under the heading 'The Carrock' is more than
five pages long, starting on page 261 and ending on page 266, and
includes the names that preceded 'Carrock' for this feature, and a
thorough discussion of example uses of the 'car-' element in
Northumbrian names.
> And while I'm asking stupid questions, is the element /tin/ "sharp
> end" recognizable for native English speakers? Or has this meaning
> been obscured by the name for the metal?
In Danish the top of a mountain is still called its 'tinde', in
particular if the top is pointed rather than flat or rounded, so my
image of the Tindrock is almost needle-like.
I think Nasmith's depiction isn't quite pointed enough:
<http://www.tednasmith.com/lotr1/TN-Tol_Brandir.html#tolb>
Lee's is better, if my interpretation is right (I believe this is the
path to the Seat of Sight with Tol Brandir showing behind the trees)
<http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pictures/fantasy/Tolkien/lee18.jpg>
Here's another take
http://y1n9d4.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/pg-11-rauros-copy-copy.jpg
though my image of Tol Brandir is slimmer, more like the shadow in
the Lee picture. Also, in my mind, the Tindrock is taller than the
two hills with high seats.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Thus, the future of the universe is not completely
determined by the laws of science, and its present state,
as Laplace thought. God still has a few tricks up his
sleeve.
- Stephen Hawking
Steve Morrison
To me, the etymology is clear once pointed out; but I never connected
"Tindrock" with "tine+rock" on my own, and likely never would have.
It sounded more like "tinder+rock" to me!
Odysseus
Derek Broughton <de...@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
<snip>
> Tingle and tinkle are cognate, but I can't figure out their etymology from
> the OED. Nothing to do with sharp ends, anyway.
The Online Etymology Dictionary has
"tinkle[:] 'to make a gentle ringing sound,' 1382, possibly a
frequentative form of _tinken_ 'to ring, jingle,' perhaps of imitative
origin. [...]"
<http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=tinkle>
But enough of that! Don't you think "Carrock" has a nice, woody sound to
it? ;)
--
Odysseus
Dirk Thierbach
> Dirk Thierbach <dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> spoke these staves:
> My picture is that it is only a small ford that separates the Carrock
> from the eastern brink, and the main body of the Anduin flows west of
> the Carroc.
Yes, that's what I found after re-reading, too :-) I was quite young
when I first read the hobbit, and that error must have stuck for some
reason.
>> BTW, is it known which language the element /car/ is from (looks
>> vaguely celtic), and it's meaning? "Rock-rock"? "River-rock"?
>> "Sharp-rock"?
> Rateliff also discusses this element, citing several examples in
> England, but starts by noting that the name 'derives from a dialectal
> Old English (Old Northumbrian) borrowing from the Celtic.'
> Rateliff's discussion under the heading 'The Carrock' is more than
> five pages long, starting on page 261 and ending on page 266, and
> includes the names that preceded 'Carrock' for this feature, and a
> thorough discussion of example uses of the 'car-' element in
> Northumbrian names.
That's all fine, BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN ?!? :-) You really know how to
keep the tension :-)
>> And while I'm asking stupid questions, is the element /tin/ "sharp
>> end" recognizable for native English speakers? Or has this meaning
>> been obscured by the name for the metal?
> In Danish the top of a mountain is still called its 'tinde', in
> particular if the top is pointed rather than flat or rounded, so my
> image of the Tindrock is almost needle-like.
Interesting. The german word is "Zinne", as opposed to "Zinn" (the metal).
It applies to "constructed sharp ends", as on top of the walls
of a castle, as well as to natural formations. Wikipedia has some images:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felsnadel
The top of a mountain is always called "Spitze", never "Zinne" (unless
it ends in such a needle-shaped rock). The points of a fork are called
"Zinken". "Zinne" only applies to something bigger, with the sharp end
always upwards.
The GttN says (should have looked there right from the start):
/Tindrock/. Common speech name (not a translation) of Tol Brandir,
the steep inaccessible island of towering rock at the head of the
falls of Rauros. Though originally Common Speech, the name was given
long before the time of the tale, and contains the old word /tind/
'spike', which if it had survived would have rhymed with find. But
it now appears as /tine/ 'prong', with loss of d. The Old Norse
equivalent was /tindr/, Old High German /zint/. It might be possible
to use the latter as an archaic form; but the current (probably
related) German /Zinne/ has precisely the right sense. Of this
/Zinne/ the Swedish equivalent is /Tinne/, Danish /Tind(e)/ -- which
also seem suitable. Tol Brandir should be retained as an Elvish
name.
The translator chose "Zinnfels", which sounds quite natural.
> Lee's is better, if my interpretation is right (I believe this is the
> path to the Seat of Sight with Tol Brandir showing behind the trees)
BTW, my best guess just before the puzzle was solved was one of the
seats (do we actually know for sure that Amon Lhaw also has a seat?),
but I couldn't quite match that with the questions so far :-)
- Dirk
Paul S. Person
wrote:
I find myself in the same position.
So, to answer the original question, at least /some/ native speakers
of English would not recognize "tind" in "Tindrock", but would
recognize the connection should "tine" be cited.
I don't know about anyone else, but I thought of "tind" as having the
same "i" as in "tin", not as rhyming with "find", which certainly
doesn't help in relating it to "tine"!
--
Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, "I never knew him."
Taemon
> We sent the occasional e-mail and read some newsgroup articles on
> aspects of programming . . . (ok, I mostly read a jokes group -- and
> once half-trolled a political group on Labour Day ;-)
You - trolling?! I bet it was a wordy post ;-)
T.
Tamf Moo
<crunch>
> But enough of that! Don't you think "Carrock" has a nice, woody sound to
> it? ;)
sounds like a particularly crisp root vegetable to me...
--
tamf
I see two Gandalfs and church bell. And two half lions chasing
a bull rat each over the lake. (Rorschach tests seen by "Illogic")
Troels Forchhammer
<news:20091024082457...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de>
> to keep the tension :-)
Oh, sorry -- I don't think he ever gets to narrow it down very much,
but the various examples (from 'carr' to various compounds including
'carrock') he mention all seem to refer to some kind of free-standing,
narrow-ish, pointed rock-formation that is not large enough to be
considered a mountain in its own right. As for the original Celtic
word, it is apparently something of a puzzle and Rateliff gives neither
an asterisk form nor any guesses for an original meaning.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
A common mistake people make when trying to design
something completely foolproof is to underestimate the
ingenuity of complete fools.
- Douglas Adams, /Mostly Harmless/
Derek Broughton
> Odysseus wrote:
>
> <crunch>
>
>> But enough of that! Don't you think "Carrock" has a nice, woody sound to
>> it? ;)
>
> sounds like a particularly crisp root vegetable to me...
>
Sounds like those damn hip-hoppers with their 500W sound systems in their
souped up Honda Civics to me...
--
derek
Derek Broughton
I think that's what I was trying to say :-) It seems clear once you know
tine and Zinne are related, but that's the only use I know of in Modern
English, so we don't have much to compare with.
--
derek