No new messages
Steve Hayes
some time.
alt.books.cs-lewis
alt.books.inklings
rec.arts.books.tolkien
Is it time to turn out the lights?
If you do post anything in the Lewis and Tolkien groups, please cross-post to
alt.books.inklings, where both are on topic, as it can help to spread the
conversation, if any.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
Stan Brown
<haye...@hotmail.com>:
> There don't seem to have been any new messages in the Inklings newsgroups for
> some time.
>
> alt.books.cs-lewis
> alt.books.inklings
> rec.arts.books.tolkien
>
> Is it time to turn out the lights?
It must be your news server. Traffic has been steady, though light,
in r.a.b.t.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
Troels Forchhammer
Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> spoke these staves:
>
> It must be your news server. Traffic has been steady, though
> light, in r.a.b.t.
The last couple of weeks have even seen an increase in messages up to
almost 10 messages per day, though the last few days it has decreased
somewhat again (thus, only 5 messages on Monday, but 9 on Sunday, 2 on
Saturday, and 9 on Friday).
When I tried to do a Google search for messages to RABT in the week
starting 2 June, however, it turned up blank -- even though
news.individual.net has registered 62 messages in the same period, and
Google's own topic listing also shows plenty of messages.
I will, however, try to remember alt.books.inklings when posting
something on-topic (I doubt that they'd be much interested in hearing
about the history of the Tolkien newsgroups).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Truth in science can be defined as the working hypothesis
best suited to open the way to the next better one.
- Konrad Lorenz
Sean_Q_
> There don't seem to have been any new messages in the Inklings newsgroups for
> some time.
>
> alt.books.cs-lewis
> alt.books.inklings
> rec.arts.books.tolkien
>
> Is it time to turn out the lights?
>
> If you do post anything in the Lewis and Tolkien groups, please cross-post to
> alt.books.inklings, where both are on topic, as it can help to spread the
> conversation, if any.
I would repost some of my AFT/RABT ravings on the Inklings newsgroup,
even if I thought there was little hope anyone would be interested...
unless those whose advice and opinion I seek correct "little hope"
to "no hope".
SQ
Stan Brown
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid>:
> When I tried to do a Google search for messages to RABT in the week
> starting 2 June, however, it turned up blank -- even though
> news.individual.net has registered 62 messages in the same period, and
> Google's own topic listing also shows plenty of messages.
Google is having another of its periodic "indexing was working fine,
so we decided to change it" episodes. I can't remember which, but in
some other newsgroup they've been discussing this. Apparently
articles are being archived (search by Message-ID still works), but
can't be found by subject or content.
Steuard Jensen
> Tue, 09 Jun 2009 05:03:13 +0200 from Steve Hayes
> <haye...@hotmail.com>:
>> There don't seem to have been any new messages in the Inklings newsgroups for
>> some time.
> It must be your news server. Traffic has been steady, though light,
> in r.a.b.t.
There's activity in alt.fan.tolkien, too (it has even had Top 10
threads/posters lists again lately); I've posted a bit to both in the
past couple of weeks.
But that was using my Usenet access at work. This thread is the first
new message to show up on my home newsfeed (through Verizon DSL) since
June 1, and the one before that was on May 15 (both posts were sent by
Sean_Q_). Verizon has not supported the alt.* hierarchy for ages. So I
can only reliably participate in Usenet from work, where I don't really
have the time for much anyway. (I have no idea what my situation will
be after I move this summer, for the record.) I get the impression that
this message will still show up to the outside world, though: the
problem is just on the receiving end. (Right?)
Worse, though, is the message that just showed up here at home this
afternoon: "AT&T Usenet Netnews Service Shutting Down". On or around
July 15, they're pulling the plug; they kindly point out that at that
point, we can obtain access via third-party vendors. The message says
"Posted only internally to AT&T Usenet Servers", but this obviously goes
beyond the AT&T brand: the From address is "news-s...@sbcglobal.net",
implying that this includes SBC, and of course it is visible to me on
Verizon. It seems possible that anyone with internet access through the
"Baby Bells" in the US will lose access to Usenet (unless they take the
time to find an outside news server).
I'm honestly not sure how many more steps like this our communities can
survive. As we've discussed a bit lately, for the past few years
there's been almost no "new blood" showing up to replace people who
drift away. Even if the most dedicated of us find and pay for Usenet
access, and even if we put real effort into revitalizing the groups and
making them more active again, at best it seems like we'll have
established a private club for ourselves rather than the vibrant
ecosystem of personalities and ideas that we once had. (I suppose we
could make some effort at publicizing and using the Google Groups
interface, but it's /so/ frustrating compared to a real newsreader. And
they've been having pretty serious issues of their own lately, too.)
That being said, I for one do not want to see the community here vanish.
There are too many great people associated with these groups (currently
and in the past) for me to want to lose contact with them, and I think
our collective history of discussion and insight into Tolkien (my focus)
and the other Inklings is richer than any other online forum that I've
ever seen. So I'm eager to hear ideas for keeping our communities
alive, whether that's via NNTP, Google Groups, shifting en masse to a
new web forum, shifting en masse to an existing web forum, or whatever
else. (Gah, most web forums are a pain to follow threads in...) Please
share your thoughts!
Steuard Jensen
jo...@jones5011.fsnet.co.uk
> I'm honestly not sure how many more steps like this our communities can
> survive. As we've discussed a bit lately, for the past few years
> there's been almost no "new blood" showing up to replace people who
> drift away. Even if the most dedicated of us find and pay for Usenet
> access, and even if we put real effort into revitalizing the groups and
> making them more active again, at best it seems like we'll have
> established a private club for ourselves rather than the vibrant
> ecosystem of personalities and ideas that we once had. (I suppose we
> could make some effort at publicizing and using the Google Groups
> interface, but it's /so/ frustrating compared to a real newsreader. And
> they've been having pretty serious issues of their own lately, too.)
>
> That being said, I for one do not want to see the community here vanish.
> There are too many great people associated with these groups (currently
> and in the past) for me to want to lose contact with them, and I think
> our collective history of discussion and insight into Tolkien (my focus)
> and the other Inklings is richer than any other online forum that I've
> ever seen. So I'm eager to hear ideas for keeping our communities
> alive, whether that's via NNTP, Google Groups, shifting en masse to a
> new web forum, shifting en masse to an existing web forum, or whatever
> else. (Gah, most web forums are a pain to follow threads in...) Please
> share your thoughts!
>
> Steuard Jensen
After 20 years or so reading this group it has become a habit I can't
give up ;o) but as my ISP has long ago given up the usenet, I am
reading it via Google Groups on the WWW. It seems to work OK except
for the spam which infests it. I tried a couple of Tolkien Web forums
but they seem too convoluted, as you say (not to mention owned by MM).
Dirk Thierbach
> But that was using my Usenet access at work. This thread is the first
> new message to show up on my home newsfeed (through Verizon DSL) since
> June 1, and the one before that was on May 15 (both posts were sent by
> Sean_Q_). Verizon has not supported the alt.* hierarchy for ages.
Looks like it is high time to change your Usenet provider :-)
> Worse, though, is the message that just showed up here at home this
> afternoon: "AT&T Usenet Netnews Service Shutting Down". On or around
> July 15, they're pulling the plug; they kindly point out that at that
> point, we can obtain access via third-party vendors.
Actually, I've never accessed the Usenet through my ISP server's.
> Even if the most dedicated of us find and pay for Usenet access,
There's plenty of newsservers you don't have to pay for, at least here
in Europe. Even better, there's some organizations who do Usenet
peering with servers operated by private persons; so if you or anyone
else has got an (even somewhat older) box you can leave on 24/7 with a
flatrate internet connection, you can setup your own server. Only cost
is electricity, a bit of time for administration, and bandwidth isn't that
substantial if you don't carry the binary groups.
All doable. There's no need to depend on some big central organizations
like AT&T or Verizon, especially not with NNTP.
> So I'm eager to hear ideas for keeping our communities
> alive, whether that's via NNTP, Google Groups, shifting en masse to a
> new web forum, shifting en masse to an existing web forum, or whatever
> else.
No, please, no web forum.
- Dirk
Öjevind Lång
news:20090610114932...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de...
[snip]
> No, please, no web forum.
I completely agree. They are cumbersome and generally not much fun.
�jevind
Noel Q. von Schneiffel
> "Dirk Thierbach" <dthierb...@usenet.arcornews.de> skrev i meddelandetnews:20090610114932...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de...
>
> > No, please, no web forum.
>
> I completely agree. They are cumbersome and generally not much fun.
A Yahoo group?
Of course, we could all drink a bottle of this mutation-causing
genetically enhanced atomic waste and grow osanwe-kenta.
Noel
Steve Morrison
> Worse, though, is the message that just showed up here at home this
> afternoon: "AT&T Usenet Netnews Service Shutting Down". On or around
> July 15, they're pulling the plug; they kindly point out that at that
> point, we can obtain access via third-party vendors. The message says
> "Posted only internally to AT&T Usenet Servers", but this obviously goes
> beyond the AT&T brand: the From address is "news-s...@sbcglobal.net",
> implying that this includes SBC, and of course it is visible to me on
> Verizon. It seems possible that anyone with internet access through the
> "Baby Bells" in the US will lose access to Usenet (unless they take the
> time to find an outside news server).
There was a Slashdot article yesterday about it (there always is when a
major ISP drops netnews): http://preview.tinyurl.com/ngk96o
It's rather disconcerting how many people even in the techno-geek
community consider newsgroups obsolete. There were a number of
suggestions, though, for alternative NSPs.
Weland
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
>>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 05:03:13 +0200 from Steve Hayes
>><haye...@hotmail.com>:
>>
>>>There don't seem to have been any new messages in the Inklings newsgroups for
>>>some time.
>
>
>>It must be your news server. Traffic has been steady, though light,
>>in r.a.b.t.
>
>
> There's activity in alt.fan.tolkien, too (it has even had Top 10
> threads/posters lists again lately); I've posted a bit to both in the
> past couple of weeks.
>
> But that was using my Usenet access at work. This thread is the first
> new message to show up on my home newsfeed (through Verizon DSL) since
> June 1, and the one before that was on May 15 (both posts were sent by
> Sean_Q_). Verizon has not supported the alt.* hierarchy for ages. So I
> can only reliably participate in Usenet from work, where I don't really
> have the time for much anyway. (I have no idea what my situation will
> be after I move this summer, for the record.) I get the impression that
> this message will still show up to the outside world, though: the
> problem is just on the receiving end. (Right?)
I've been having problems as well....esp. since this past weekend. I'm
receiving messages, but can not always post....
Paul S. Person
wrote:
<snippo>
>Worse, though, is the message that just showed up here at home this
>afternoon: "AT&T Usenet Netnews Service Shutting Down". On or around
>July 15, they're pulling the plug; they kindly point out that at that
>point, we can obtain access via third-party vendors. The message says
>"Posted only internally to AT&T Usenet Servers", but this obviously goes
>beyond the AT&T brand: the From address is "news-s...@sbcglobal.net",
>implying that this includes SBC, and of course it is visible to me on
>Verizon. It seems possible that anyone with internet access through the
>"Baby Bells" in the US will lose access to Usenet (unless they take the
>time to find an outside news server).
I'm on Earthlink, and I am seeing these allegedly "internal" posts as
well.
I am hoping that they just escaped from their cage, and that only AT&T
is doing this at this time, but who can say?
--
Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, "I never knew him."
Morgoth's Curse
<noel.von....@fats.teunc.org> wrote:
Two words: Yahoo Geocities.
Morgoth's Curse
Morgoth's Curse
wrote:
>I'm honestly not sure how many more steps like this our communities can
>survive. As we've discussed a bit lately, for the past few years
>there's been almost no "new blood" showing up to replace people who
>drift away. Even if the most dedicated of us find and pay for Usenet
>access, and even if we put real effort into revitalizing the groups and
>making them more active again, at best it seems like we'll have
>established a private club for ourselves rather than the vibrant
>ecosystem of personalities and ideas that we once had. (I suppose we
>could make some effort at publicizing and using the Google Groups
>interface, but it's /so/ frustrating compared to a real newsreader. And
>they've been having pretty serious issues of their own lately, too.)
You are a teacher, Steuard. You ought to know better than anyone that
your students do not write. (I am sure they can write, but they
prefer verbal communication and video.) It is ironic, but we have
invented technology that makes it possible to return to the days when
most people were illiterate--but such technology would never have been
invented if literacy had not been emphasized during the past couple of
centuries.
>That being said, I for one do not want to see the community here vanish.
> There are too many great people associated with these groups (currently
>and in the past) for me to want to lose contact with them, and I think
>our collective history of discussion and insight into Tolkien (my focus)
>and the other Inklings is richer than any other online forum that I've
>ever seen. So I'm eager to hear ideas for keeping our communities
>alive, whether that's via NNTP, Google Groups, shifting en masse to a
>new web forum, shifting en masse to an existing web forum, or whatever
>else. (Gah, most web forums are a pain to follow threads in...) Please
>share your thoughts!
There is no way to revive the community. The best that we can hope to
accomplish is to establish, as you say, a private club. It might be
possible to create a forum which mimics the basic format of the
Usenet, but I do not know how feasible it is or who would pay for it.
Morgoth's Curse
Morgoth's Curse
<chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In article <d6rv255eagsff6c2u...@4ax.com>,
> Morgoth's Curse <morgoths...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> There is no way to revive the community. The best that we can hope to
>> accomplish is to establish, as you say, a private club. It might be
>
>That would be one way to ensure it is a clique instead of a group.
What do you think it is now?
Morgoth's Curse
Troels Forchhammer
Steuard Jensen <ste...@slimy.com> spoke these staves:
>
<snip>
> I get the impression that this message will still show up to the
> outside world, though:
<Waves!>
> the problem is just on the receiving end. (Right?)
My response will (unless someone beats me to it) be, counting on
news.individual.net the seventh direct answer and the twelfth answer
in the subthread generated by your post.
> I'm honestly not sure how many more steps like this our
> communities can survive. As we've discussed a bit lately, for the
> past few years there's been almost no "new blood" showing up to
> replace people who drift away. Even if the most dedicated of us
> find and pay for Usenet access, and even if we put real effort
> into revitalizing the groups and making them more active again, at
> best it seems like we'll have established a private club for
> ourselves rather than the vibrant ecosystem of personalities and
> ideas that we once had. (I suppose we could make some effort at
> publicizing and using the Google Groups interface, but it's /so/
> frustrating compared to a real newsreader. And they've been
> having pretty serious issues of their own lately, too.)
Yes, I, too, think this is the main problem -- how to attract new
people.
Whenever I discuss Tolkien matters elsewhere on the net, I make an
effort to emphasize the newsgroups, but I doubt that it has much
effect ;-)
In Google RABT has 485 subscribers and AFT 314, which are more than
are regularly posting here, so there must be some lurkers (please
post -- I'm sure you have something valuable to add!).
It seems likely to me that most people who discover usenet these days
do so by way of Google Groups. If that is so, I think it is a problem
that Google doesn't do any spam filtering -- everything appears on
Google, and the spam threads (even though they're just one message
'deep') appear to be a high fraction of the traffic (12 of the 30
latest AFT-threads on Google are spam threads, and of the remaining
18 something like another 12 are in-jokes, meta-threads etc.).
I do wonder if Morgoth's Curse is right -- that we are already a
private club? And if so, I wonder even more if that is irreversible?
> That being said, I for one do not want to see the community here
> vanish.
[...]
Hear! Hear!
I too am willing to go rather far to maintain this community.
> So I'm eager to hear ideas for keeping our communities alive,
> whether that's via NNTP, Google Groups, shifting en masse to a
> new web forum, shifting en masse to an existing web forum, or
> whatever else. (Gah, most web forums are a pain to follow
> threads in...) Please share your thoughts!
I really wish that I had a golden solution -- I certainly share your
distaste for web forums, but if someone was to find a suitable web-
forum that has some reasonable threading, I suppose it could be
tempting (programming one ourselves might turn out to be a bit too
much).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability
to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable
for their apparent disinclination to do so.
- Douglas Adams
Julian Bradfield
> I really wish that I had a golden solution -- I certainly share your
> distaste for web forums, but if someone was to find a suitable web-
> forum that has some reasonable threading, I suppose it could be
> tempting (programming one ourselves might turn out to be a bit too
> much).
What's the advantage of a specific web forum over a specific (free)
NNTP server? (Does IE have a news client built in?)
Count Menelvagor
> "Dirk Thierbach" <dthierb...@usenet.arcornews.de> skrev i meddelandetnews:20090610114932...@dthierbach.news.arcor.de...
>
> [snip]
>
> > No, please, no web forum.
>
> I completely agree. They are cumbersome and generally not much fun.
>
i've found they tend to hurt my eyes.
(the opera forum i'm on has a decent layout, although you can't search
on it. i'd supply a URL, but it's subscriber-only.)
Count Menelvagor
the balrog groups i'm on function in that way. but not many post to
them these yéni either. they're all out destroying stuff instead.
Steuard Jensen
<j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> On 2009-06-10, Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>> I really wish that I had a golden solution -- I certainly share
>> your distaste for web forums, but if someone was to find a suitable
>> be tempting
> What's the advantage of a specific web forum over a specific (free)
> NNTP server? (Does IE have a news client built in?)
Well, to begin with, I haven't actually managed to locate any free
NNTP servers that allow posting and reliably propagate said posts to
the rest of Usenet, not that I've been looking long. (I suppose that
a completely isolated NNTP server wouldn't be any more of a break from
the current groups than a web forum would be, but it would suffer from
being even less discoverable than either, and we'd lose Google's
archiving ability.)
But more to the point, the big issue is getting new people to join the
groups. The high quality of Usenet discussions in the past clearly
benefitted from the fact that for a long time they were the only
broadly available discussion forums online at all: today, people have
an astounding array of choices. Beyond just that dilution effect,
Usenet has the disadvantage that traditional access requires special
software: with so many choices, why would a newcomer pick the one that
forced them to install and figure out some weird program? Google
Groups is one way around that, but I'm told that its spam filtering is
limited (which is an issue, sadly) and a lot of aspects of the
interface aren't very easy to use. (The Tolkien and other Inklings
groups often aren't carried by other web-based news interfaces.)
Steuard Jensen
Jeff Urs
> Beyond just that dilution effect,
> Usenet has the disadvantage that traditional access requires special
> software: with so many choices, why would a newcomer pick the one that
> forced them to install and figure out some weird program?
Figure out, perhaps, but not, in general, install. Even the user of
unadorned Windows has Outlook Express, the mail and news client for
IE. And newsreaders tend to work much like mail clients, so there
really isn't even that much figuring out.
But you're right; new people do feel much more comfortable with things
with a web interface (for one thing, they can just click right into
one when they find it), and the people who run things with a web
interface aren't generally much into sharing page views, so the users
of web forums do tend toward private clubs. NNTP is a relic of the non-
commercial Internet.
--
Jeff
Joanne Corsano
turning into private clubs, but in response I would like to mention
that there are probably quite a few lurkers on the groups. I am one,
for instance. I have been reading the Tolkien ngs for many years but
have only posted a few times in all those years.
Although I have read LotR and The Hobbit dozens of times and I started
a Tolkien club when I was in high school in the '70s, my level of
expertise and knowledge of the books is so much less than that of many
of the regular posters that I usually only read and admire, rather
than contribute.
But I would absolutely hate to see the ngs die, as some of the other
ngs that I used to read have done. And I would hate to see those awful
web based forums be the only Tolkien discussion areas left. (Did
someone mention the abomination of yahoo groups? I give those the
prize for the most unnavigable boards on the internet.)
Just my two cents' worth.
Joanne
................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-
Clams Canino
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message
> In Google RABT has 485 subscribers and AFT 314, which are more than
> are regularly posting here, so there must be some lurkers (please
> post -- I'm sure you have something valuable to add!).
I'm going to stick with RABT, the biggest one is easier to save. :)
> I do wonder if Morgoth's Curse is right -- that we are already a
> private club? And if so, I wonder even more if that is irreversible?
I also am afraid he could well be right, but there no harm in hanging in
here.
When The Hobbit ever hits the silver screen, we'll see another movie bump of
newbies - hopefully.
-W
Dave Stallard
> But more to the point, the big issue is getting new people to join the
> groups. The high quality of Usenet discussions in the past clearly
> benefitted from the fact that for a long time they were the only
> broadly available discussion forums online at all: today, people have
> an astounding array of choices. Beyond just that dilution effect,
> Usenet has the disadvantage that traditional access requires special
> software: with so many choices, why would a newcomer pick the one that
> forced them to install and figure out some weird program? Google
> Groups is one way around that, but I'm told that its spam filtering is
> limited (which is an issue, sadly) and a lot of aspects of the
> interface aren't very easy to use. (The Tolkien and other Inklings
> groups often aren't carried by other web-based news interfaces.)
With the advent of AJAX and similar browser-scripting mechanisms, it
should be no big deal to create a a good Usenet client that runs in a
browser. After all, there are fairly decent web email interfaces with
the look and feel of standard desktop email clients. Usenet is more
complex than email , granted, but not that much more so. (Perhaps
Google Groups is this already; sorry I haven't looked at it in a long time.)
To the issue of getting people to join, I'd point to the rise of
Facebook, MySpace, and similar social networking vehicles. I would
think it would be possible to piggyback on those trends in order to
create a "social network" around the topics of particular UseNet groups,
such as this one.
I think part of the problem might be an age gap. The Facebook/MySpace
people tend to skew younger; Usenet people, older. So each is likely to
view the other's vehicle with suspicion or disdain.
Dave
Noel Q. von Schneiffel
>
> Figure out, perhaps, but not, in general, install. Even the user of
> unadorned Windows has Outlook Express, the mail and news client for
> IE. And newsreaders tend to work much like mail clients, so there
> really isn't even that much figuring out.
>
> But you're right; new people do feel much more comfortable with things
> with a web interface (for one thing, they can just click right into
> one when they find it), and the people who run things with a web
> interface aren't generally much into sharing page views, so the users
> of web forums do tend toward private clubs. NNTP is a relic of the non-
> commercial Internet.
I would like to argue for a mailing list similar to Yahoo Groups. (It
does not need to be Yahoo; there are other services that have similar
functionality.) The beauty of that is that it offers both: you can
post via a website, if you are so inclined, and you can also easily
have your messages delivered to you by email, which you can then read
in your usual email client, with threading and all. As others said,
Usenet newsreaders practically work the same way as mail clients these
days, so no oldbie would have to "suffer" too terribly if he's forced
to use Thunderbird instead of Free Agent.
(As you know, parts of this group already changed to this kind of
service back in 1998/99 when, oddly enough, others complained about
their activity. I'm not saying they haven't become "a clique", on the
contrary, but that's not the point.)
Secondly, there should be a basic website with a catchy name that
serves as a recruiting frontend. Emphasis on "catchy name". Without
valuing their content, "theonering.net" is, for example, a catchy
name. "silenceisdefeat.org/~aft-rabt/", in all honesty, is not.
Noel
Tahi
>
> In Google RABT has 485 subscribers and AFT 314, which are more than
> are regularly posting here, so there must be some lurkers (please
> post -- I'm sure you have something valuable to add!).
>
this part of the problem, that the ISPs can't 'see' the demand? On a forum
it usually says somewhere how many people are on the site at the time,
whereas here there is little evidence of us lurkers.
One reason I avoid forums is that it can be difficult to find them, and even
then some will make you apply for membership before letting you even see
what topics are being discussed.
Dave suggests it is an age gap, and yes I am also well over thirty, but
certainly newer computer users are trained to only do things the way their
computer wants and will never discover that they have a newsreader installed
in Windows. I expect Facebook may have a Tolkien 'interest group' (anyone
know?) but I shudder to think what the converstions would be like. Perhaps
when people mention looking things up on wikipedia or wherever, we should
all be saying 'surely there is a newsgroup on the subject where you can
ask?'
T.
Troels Forchhammer
<snip>
> Worse, though, is the message that just showed up here at home
> this afternoon: "AT&T Usenet Netnews Service Shutting Down".
[...]
> The message says "Posted only internally to AT&T Usenet Servers",
It has now also turned up on the inet.fi serves that we get at work, so
I'm pretty sure that the someone who posted it either forgot about (or
worse: didn't even know about) the ways of usenet propagation.
My guess is that it only affects AT&T's own usenet services (at a guess
they will be a 'news.att.com' family of servers), although there are
possibly other Usenet Service Providers who will have to find new
sources for their NNTP feeds.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Taking fun
as simply fun
and earnestness
in earnest
shows how thouroughly
thou none
of the two
discernest.
- Piet Hein, /The Eternal Twins/
Jeff Urs
> I think part of the problem might be an age gap. The Facebook/MySpace
> people tend to skew younger; Usenet people, older. So each is likely to
> view the other's vehicle with suspicion or disdain.
Is it an age gap, or a difference in philosophies? Ignoring groups
that have been taken over by individuals, the focus of a USENET group
is on the community it serves. The modern social networking
technologies, on the other hand, focus on the individual. Even in the
communities supported using those technologies, threads belong to the
user who started them, and you have to go into that user's world to
participate.
So maybe what we need is some gateway software, or a customizable
client that casts the contributions to the group in the context with
which the user is comfortable. A feed reader could do it, but only if
the creator of the feed was willing to put enough information in the
feed item to not need the original site, and that just isn't going to
happen.
--
Jeff
Steve Morrison
> In message <news:4A2F4866...@slimy.com>
> Steuard Jensen <ste...@slimy.com> spoke these staves:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Worse, though, is the message that just showed up here at home
>> this afternoon: "AT&T Usenet Netnews Service Shutting Down".
> [...]
>> The message says "Posted only internally to AT&T Usenet Servers",
>
> It has now also turned up on the inet.fi serves that we get at work, so
> I'm pretty sure that the someone who posted it either forgot about (or
> worse: didn't even know about) the ways of usenet propagation.
>
> My guess is that it only affects AT&T's own usenet services (at a guess
> they will be a 'news.att.com' family of servers), although there are
> possibly other Usenet Service Providers who will have to find new
> sources for their NNTP feeds.
>
I've read (on the Slashdot story I linked earlier) that the message
was sent everywhere as a result of a "Distributrion: internal"
typo. In any case, I got it too, and I'm presently on Giganews.
Steuard Jensen
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
> In message <news:4A2F4866...@slimy.com>
> Steuard Jensen <ste...@slimy.com> spoke these staves:
> My response will (unless someone beats me to it) be, counting on
> news.individual.net the seventh direct answer and the twelfth answer
> in the subthread generated by your post.
Humorously, only four posts in this resulting subthread have appeared
on my home server, not including my own more recent contribution.
It's a lost cause. But that means I'm stuck posting from work (where
I don't really have the time to do what I'd like).
> Whenever I discuss Tolkien matters elsewhere on the net, I make an
> effort to emphasize the newsgroups, but I doubt that it has much
> effect ;-)
I've been contemplating that. I think I could do a better job
publicizing the Tolkien groups on my FAQ site, which still typically
gets something like 1000 distinct human visits per week. The site is
in desperate need of a design overhaul anyway (it was already pretty
"old school" when I first wrote it), so maybe I'll look into that. (I
should probably add a question like "What is Usenet?" to the FAQ, come
to think of it.) We'll see whether I can really find the time to give
it the refresh it deserves (and if so, whether it makes any difference
here).
> In Google RABT has 485 subscribers and AFT 314
Is that "subscribers" or "active subscribers"? Heck, I'll bet that
one of those is me: I subscribed to at least one of the groups on
Google at some point to see what their interface was like.
> I do wonder if Morgoth's Curse is right -- that we are already a
> private club? And if so, I wonder even more if that is irreversible?
There were eras that felt a bit like that in the past, too. It would
only be irreversible if the actual dynamics of getting new people
involved have changed too much since then.
>> That being said, I for one do not want to see the community here
>> vanish.
> I too am willing to go rather far to maintain this community.
Here's one random thought I just had: I don't do much with Facebook,
but I have an account there and it's been a great way to get back in
touch with some old friends whose contact information I'd long since
lost. Perhaps as a form of publicity (and as a backup "keep in touch"
plan in case things here really do fall apart) someone could start a
"Tolkien Usenet Newsgroups" Facebook group and make an effort to get
current and former participants (and lurkers) to join. I could look
into it eventually, but if anyone here has more expertise and wants to
set it up, let us know! (Post before you do it and check for other
people doing so, just so we don't end up with a bunch of the things.)
Presumably the communities in the Lewis and Inklings groups could do
the same thing.
>> So I'm eager to hear ideas for keeping our communities alive,
>> whether that's via NNTP
The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that we should
stick with NNTP if we can: the interface is just plain better, and
it's the only way to truly maintain continuity with the groups'
history. But anything we can do to reduce barriers to entry would be
a Very Good Thing, and measures to help people recognize and avoid
spam are probably worthwhile, too. (I'm dangerously close to
suggesting a subject line tagging system akin to alt.fan.pratchett,
though hopefully enormously simpler. Yuck.)
Steuard Jensen
Steuard Jensen
<<6bb07979-a744-48af...@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>>,
> serves as a recruiting frontend. Emphasis on "catchy name". Without
> valuing their content, "theonering.net" is, for example, a catchy
> name. "silenceisdefeat.org/~aft-rabt/", in all honesty, is not.
This is a fair point: even if we stick with Usenet, having a
significant web presence could really help. Choosing a catchy name
that fit the groups well and wasn't already taken would be a
challenge, I think. (I don't know that "tolkien.slimy.com" has much
going for it in that respect, either). And that doesn't even address
the issue of administering the thing: who would run the system, who
would pay for it, how would we prepare for the inevitable changes in
those answers... it's a mess.
Steuard Jensen
Steuard Jensen
Corsano <joa...@picturelake.com> wrote:
> Although to some regular posters, it may seem that these ngs are
> turning into private clubs, but in response I would like to mention
> that there are probably quite a few lurkers on the groups. I am one,
> for instance. I have been reading the Tolkien ngs for many years but
> have only posted a few times in all those years.
Thank you for sharing your two cents here! As others have pointed
out, one of the "disadvantages" of Usenet is that there's absolutely
no way of knowing how many lurkers are out there; it's easy to get
downhearted and assume that you've all drifted away. (Particularly
when it's so easy for regular contributors to drift away, or in my
case be forcibly dragged away by real-world responsibilities.)
There's obviously a strong desire to keep the groups alive, so we'll
make it happen. It may just take a little work.
Steuard Jensen
Clams Canino
"Steuard Jensen" <ste...@slimy.com> wrote in message
>I think I could do a better job
> publicizing the Tolkien groups on my FAQ site, which still typically
> gets something like 1000 distinct human visits per week. The site is
> in desperate need of a design overhaul anyway
Sounds to me like you could possibly be a "one man savior" if you glaringly
"market" the usenet groups .
1000 visits a week is really good. Tell them why they need to get here and
how to get here. :)
-W
Noel Q. von Schneiffel
>
> This is a fair point: even if we stick with Usenet, having a
> significant web presence could really help. Choosing a catchy name
> that fit the groups well and wasn't already taken would be a
> challenge, I think. (I don't know that "tolkien.slimy.com" has much
> going for it in that respect, either). And that doesn't even address
> the issue of administering the thing: who would run the system, who
> would pay for it, how would we prepare for the inevitable changes in
> those answers... it's a mess.
> Steuard Jensen
I could organize a free subdomain on teunc.org, but I suppose that is
out of the question?
*smirk*
Noel
Dirk Thierbach
> Although I have read LotR and The Hobbit dozens of times and I started
> a Tolkien club when I was in high school in the '70s, my level of
> expertise and knowledge of the books is so much less than that of many
> of the regular posters that I usually only read and admire, rather
> than contribute.
For me, the more interesting moments on this NG happened when someone
pointed out that one could read or interpret Tolkien's work in a way
different from the way I had usually done it. And of course the odd bits
and pieces one learns during a discussion, even if it goes off-topic.
So I think what counts (at least for me) is perspective, not
expertise. So don't be afraid to contribute something, if you think
it might be interesting for somebody else :-)
> (Did someone mention the abomination of yahoo groups? I give those
> the prize for the most unnavigable boards on the internet.)
Yes, I fully agree. For some reason they also made the HTML so
difficult and non-standard that I frequently have problems with my
(non-standard) browser.
- Dirk
Steuard Jensen
Canino <cc-m...@earthdink.net> wrote:
> "Steuard Jensen" <ste...@slimy.com> wrote in message
>> I think I could do a better job publicizing the Tolkien groups on
>> my FAQ site, which still typically gets something like 1000
>> distinct human visits per week.
> Sounds to me like you could possibly be a "one man savior"...
Most saviors are. :) But I don't aspire to the title.
> 1000 visits a week is really good. Tell them why they need to get
> here and how to get here.
Don't read way too much into that: I haven't updated the filter that
excludes spiders from the count lately (I still have automated methods
in place for that, but they've never caught everything), and a
noticeable number of hits in my statistics appear to be people
searching for crossword puzzle answers. (Google hits for the term
"Tolkien tree creature", for example.) Still, I think it could help.
I'll try to find time to do that update...
Steuard Jensen
Steuard Jensen
<<c4351ff5-94c6-4b5d...@g19g2000yql.googlegroups.com>>,
>> And that doesn't even address the issue of administering the thing:
>> who would run the system, who would pay for it, how would we
>> prepare for the inevitable changes in those answers... it's a mess.
> I could organize a free subdomain on teunc.org, but I suppose that is
> out of the question?
> *smirk*
Hey now, I apologized for complaining about TEUNC years ago. :)
(Especially since a substantial fraction of my irritation at the time
was due to a bizarre misconfiguration of my college's news server.)
In any case, I think it's probably reasonable to keep all options
open. Though the newsgroups as a /subdomain/ of TEUNC would indeed
feel a bit odd. :) Still, I'm glad to know that you guys are still
around, too.
Steuard Jensen
Steuard Jensen
<ste...@slimy.com> wrote:
> Perhaps as a form of publicity (and as a backup "keep in touch" plan
> in case things here really do fall apart) someone could start a
> "Tolkien Usenet Newsgroups" Facebook group and make an effort to get
> current and former participants (and lurkers) to join. I could look
> into it eventually, but if anyone here has more expertise and wants
> to set it up, let us know!
The more I think of it, the better this idea sounds. I'll try to do
this sometime tonight unless I hear objections before then. (If you
do have objections or you've already done it yourself, CC me over
email: as noted at the start of this thread I'm unlikely to see
newsgroup posts at home just now.)
Steuard Jensen
ztsc
> In Google RABT has 485 subscribers and AFT 314, which are more than
> are regularly posting here, so there must be some lurkers (please
> post -- I'm sure you have something valuable to add!).
>
> It seems likely to me that most people who discover usenet these days
> do so by way of Google Groups. If that is so, I think it is a problem
> that Google doesn't do any spam filtering -- everything appears on
> Google, and the spam threads (even though they're just one message
> 'deep') appear to be a high fraction of the traffic (12 of the 30
> latest AFT-threads on Google are spam threads, and of the remaining
> 18 something like another 12 are in-jokes, meta-threads etc.).
As a very occasional lurker (and even more occasional poster), I'll
just hop in for a second and say that I hope the group does not die
out, it being one of the few places on the internet that regularly
attracts participants who are actually intelligent and usually do more
than just flame each other (at least these days). I use Google Groups
(my ISP canned usenet a while ago), and while it is annoying, I don't
think it is too bad. I like it better than message boards anyway. I
generally find the spam easy to ignore--real messages stand out due to
their subjects and the fact that there is usually more than one
message in the thread. I think the in-joke threads can be quite
amusing, and the meta-threads aren't too bad--better, at least, than a
wasteland of wild spam.
If only you could tell Google Groups to send all posts via email, this
would make it function essentially like a normal usenet provider. It
looks like they let you do this for other kinds of groups, but not for
usenet groups. I'm not sure why. If I go to the "My Groups" page and
click "Manage my memberships" there is a choice under subscription
type to receive messages by email. However, if I try selecting that,
it says it cannot be applied to this group. Weird.
The upcoming Hobbit movies might inspire more people to Tolkien
discussions, at least for a time. Hook them then, and hopefully
revitalize the community.
Zorag
SRM
LOLOL! I just love the total elegance of this idea! It's like ... well,
let's not get carried away ... cosmic balance or something.
Anyway, I think Noel is really onto something. Or on something. Or
something.
--
Laurie Forbes
Clams Canino
"Steuard Jensen" <ste...@slimy.com> wrote in message
> Still, I think it could help.
> I'll try to find time to do that update...
Agreed.
Despair is only of Morgoth.
-W
Öjevind Lång
news:DdednTwjYpD2N63X...@brightview.co.uk...
[snip]
> Dave suggests it is an age gap, and yes I am also well over thirty, but
> certainly newer computer users are trained to only do things the way their
> computer wants and will never discover that they have a newsreader
> installed in Windows. I expect Facebook may have a Tolkien 'interest
> group' (anyone know?) but I shudder to think what the converstions would
> be like.
"3 o'clock. Mood: thoughtful. Tried out a new lipstick while listening to
'The Little Mermaid'. Then took a dump and noted with irritation that there
are pimples on my bum.
5 o'clock. Had sausage and chips with lots of tomato catsup for dinner. Read
a bit more of 'Twilight' and wept. If only Tolkien had had that sensitivity!
Beautiful.
8 o'clock. My friend Doraleen looked in. We agreed to watch the collected
episodes of 'Xena, Warrior Princess' together tonight. Then we swapped
pictures: she gave me one of those sexy ones of Orlando Bloom, and I gave
her the joke one where Viggo Mortensen is waggling his ears."
�jevind
Morgoth's Curse
"You shall see and you shall confess that I do not lie."
;-)
Morgoth's Curse
Morgoth's Curse
<joa...@picturelake.com> wrote:
>Although to some regular posters, it may seem that these ngs are
>turning into private clubs, but in response I would like to mention
>that there are probably quite a few lurkers on the groups. I am one,
>for instance. I have been reading the Tolkien ngs for many years but
>have only posted a few times in all those years.
>
>Although I have read LotR and The Hobbit dozens of times and I started
>a Tolkien club when I was in high school in the '70s, my level of
>expertise and knowledge of the books is so much less than that of many
>of the regular posters that I usually only read and admire, rather
>than contribute.
>
>But I would absolutely hate to see the ngs die, as some of the other
>ngs that I used to read have done. And I would hate to see those awful
>web based forums be the only Tolkien discussion areas left. (Did
>someone mention the abomination of yahoo groups? I give those the
>prize for the most unnavigable boards on the internet.)
>
>Just my two cents' worth.
>
>Joanne
The Tolkien newsgroups are certainly not an exclusive club, but are
effectively a private club if only because the same regulars
contribute on a regular basis. I cannot, offhand, think of a single
person who joined this newsgroup after watching the movies and who
still posts. The only folks who still post are those who share both a
profound devotion to the works of Tolkien and a love of the community
which has evolved over the years.
Morgoth's Curse
Troels Forchhammer
<99ada70d-621b-43cd...@t16g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>
ztsc <mr.z...@gmail.com> spoke these staves:
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> In Google RABT has 485 subscribers and AFT 314, which are more
>> than are regularly posting here, so there must be some lurkers
Steuard, IIRC, asked what kind of subscribers this is, and these are
people who have some kind of an account with Google Groups, and who
have actively subscribed to the groups with their Google Groups account
-- the main difference from a normal newsreader being that with Google
Groups it is actually easier to read groups without subscribing, so
there could be many more who read the groups on Google Groups without
subscribing.
>> (please post -- I'm sure you have something valuable to add!).
My thanks to Tahi, Joanne, you Zorag, and anyone else dragged out of
lurking (or hibernation) for this discussion. Getting to respond to
everything will take some time (how come that interesting discussions
so often co-incide with entirely unjustifiable demands on my time --
for instance that I should do some actual work for my money;
outrageous! <GG>), but it's been good to read all the comments
(remember also to look in on us when we celebrate the 10th anniversary
for Steuard's FAQ on 17 August).
> As a very occasional lurker (and even more occasional poster),
> I'll just hop in for a second and say that I hope the group does
> not die out, it being one of the few places on the internet that
> regularly attracts participants who are actually intelligent and
> usually do more than just flame each other (at least these days).
I think I can guarantee that we will continue, and I agree with Steuard
that the responses here clearly indicate that we should continue as a
NNTP group, but also with some sort of improved we presence. Here I
think <http://www.lspace.org/> which is run (mainly?) by the Pratchett
group might be a good place to start.
<snip>
> If only you could tell Google Groups to send all posts via email,
If I click 'Edit my subscription' while viewing RABT, I get the options
to have 'No Email,' 'Abridged Email' ('No more than 1 email per day')
or 'Digest Email' ('Approximately 1 email per day'). I cannot choose to
get the individual messages as individual e-mails, but the digest gives
the full messages in bundles of 25 (and possibly closing each bundle at
midnight server-time, I don't know). But of course none of these gives
you the opportunity to respond to a message by e-mail (I've seen
someone -- Igenlode, IIRC -- who used an e-mail to NNTP service).
> The upcoming Hobbit movies might inspire more people to Tolkien
> discussions, at least for a time. Hook them then, and hopefully
> revitalize the community.
Good point there as well. We should probably also make sure that our
web presence is updated before the heat is turned back on in October
(when the trial Tolkien vs. New Line Cinema is scheduled to start.[#]
Incidentally -- the domain "tolkiengroups.net" is available (it is,
perhaps, not the most catching name, but all reasonable names of
"tolkien.TLD" are taken, so it's a question of what we would want to
associated with Tolkien -- though we could also get "pengolod.org" (but
not .net).
[#] See e.g.
<http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/press/891-
Update_Tolkien_New_Line_lawsuit.php>
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot ++
- /Hogfather/ (Terry Pratchett)
Troels Forchhammer
Morgoth's Curse <morgoths...@nospam.yahoo.com> spoke these
staves:
>
<snip>
> I cannot, offhand, think of a single person who joined this
> newsgroup after watching the movies and who still posts.
Well, if that doesn't prove that you really ought to come by more
often, I don't know what does ;-)
It reminds me -- didn't you do a 'Who's Who' survey? What became of the
result?
Calvin joined in 2006
NY Teacher has been around since 2007
I dare say that there are others as well, but I remember these two
saying that they've joined after the films.
> The only folks who still post are those who share both a
> profound devotion to the works of Tolkien and a love of
> the community which has evolved over the years.
The first is a requirement and the other not a hindrance, I think ;-)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom
of thought which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard
Troels Forchhammer
<bredba...@ojevind.lang> spoke these staves:
> "Tahi" <e...@tyg.notforce9.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
> news:DdednTwjYpD2N63X...@brightview.co.uk...
>>
>> thirty,
So is, if I recall correctly, the average Danish Facebook user :-)
>> but certainly newer computer users are trained to only do things
>> the way their computer wants and will never discover that they
>> have a newsreader installed in Windows.
And yet -- making news-links to <news:alt.fan.tolkien> will open that
newreader -- but perhaps we ought to explain what happens when you
click it. That might be an idea.
>> I expect Facebook may have a Tolkien 'interest group' (anyone
>> know?)
Hundreds. A few (less than a handful) of them actually have quite a
lot of members (1000+)
I've been around a few of them, and I'm still on one, and while it
has certainly helped my pool of what we might call Tolkien-trivia-
knowledge, it hasn't given me new insights as such -- just helped me
remember things I knew already.
>> but I shudder to think what the converstions would be like.
>
> "3 o'clock. Mood: thoughtful. Tried out a new lipstick while
> listening to 'The Little Mermaid'. Then took a dump and noted with
> irritation that there are pimples on my bum.
>
> 5 o'clock. Had sausage and chips with lots of tomato catsup for
> dinner. Read a bit more of 'Twilight' and wept. If only Tolkien
> had had that sensitivity! Beautiful.
>
> 8 o'clock. My friend Doraleen looked in. We agreed to watch the
> collected episodes of 'Xena, Warrior Princess' together tonight.
> Then we swapped pictures: she gave me one of those sexy ones of
> Orlando Bloom, and I gave her the joke one where Viggo Mortensen
> is waggling his ears."
;-)
Well, perhaps not quite as bad as that, but certainly far from the
level of intellectual intercourse you can find here.
The majority of the conversations are given to various games (trivia
questions and other games), then there's the . . . shall we just say
less mature discussions (I've seen a discussion titled "The One Ring
versus Wolverine" -- except that it wasn't spelled correctly --
asking whether the X-Men character Wolverine would be able to destroy
the One Ring . . .). And of course there is the film-related threads,
including the occasional (I must emphasize that this is a rare thing
and that many others also find it exceedingly immature) the
obligatory thread on which character from the New Line Cinema
adaptations that is the 'sexiest.'
Generally, however, it is my feeling that most people want a quick
and easy-to-understand answer to their questions. When you start
actually discussing the issue in details and show that things Tolkien
are far more complex than that, then the interest appears to drop
very quickly. Either that, or people don't have the good manners to
at least say 'thank you, that was interesting' when someone tries to
explain.
I have a plan to try and coax some of the better members to usenet
;-) (and there are actually members there who would benefit our
groups here)
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded
gold, it would be a merrier world.
- Thorin Oakenshield, /The Hobbit/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Pseudonymus al-Faqha'ter III
> "Tahi" <e...@tyg.notforce9.co.uk> skrev i meddelandetnews:DdednTwjYpD2N63X...@brightview.co.uk...
This post is not as bad as it looks, although the author shows a
deplorable lack of reverence for Tolkien and will therefore have to be
severely re-educated. Yet, she shows both a laudable desire to connect
Tolkien with real life and a knowledge of Tolkien's writings. The
first sentence under "5 o'clock," for example, is an obvious reference
to Tolkien's Aug. 1958 letter to MORAMBAR.
Best of all, she probably likes buying things, and FATS heartily
approves of that.
Steuard Jensen
<ste...@slimy.com> wrote:
><ste...@slimy.com> wrote:
>> ...someone could start a "Tolkien Usenet Newsgroups" Facebook
>> group...
> The more I think of it, the better this idea sounds. I'll try to do
> this sometime tonight unless I hear objections before then.
Done! I've used the name suggested above, or here's a URL that seems
to work:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=92307902485
As the group creator, I'm listed as an "admin", but we should
certainly have others (particularly given my lack of free time during
the academic year). I think Troels would be a good choice (he's been
running the pages on silenceisdefeat, anyway); who else has been
active here a while, has joined the Facebook group, and wants the keys
to the building?
Steuard Jensen
Troels Forchhammer
"SRM" <cla...@teunc.org> spoke these staves:
>
['the newsgroups as a /subdomain/ of TEUNC' as Steuard said]
> LOLOL! I just love the total elegance of this idea! It's like ...
> well, let's not get carried away ... cosmic balance or something.
LOL!
That goes way beyond cosmic balance -- it's the harmony of the Timeless
Halls coupled with a kind of poetic justice metered out by someone with
a seriously deranged sense of irony ;-)
> Anyway, I think Noel is really onto something. Or on something. Or
> something.
Noel is _always_ (on (to )?)?something -- and usually all three
variants at the same time
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
To make a name for learning
when other roads are barred,
take something very easy
and make it very hard.
- Piet Hein, /Wide Road/
Troels Forchhammer
>
<snip>
> There's obviously a strong desire to keep the groups alive, so we'll
> make it happen. It may just take a little work.
And the Steward of the FAQ went out onto the Road, and he saw that it
went ever on and on, but holding up the FAQ he started marching
determinedly ahead, and out from all the lesser roads, from the
streets, from the paths and even from the smallest tracks came lurkers
and posters alike who followed the banner of the FAQ down the Great
Road from the door where it began. Now far ahead the FAQ has gone, and
I must follow, if I can . . .
. . . sorry about that; it was just a mental image that I had to
exorcise in this manner ;-)
I do believe you're right that we need to increase our 'footprint' on
the web -- and probably also do some advertising whereever we meet
other people who might share our love for Tolkien's work -- if we are
to revitalise our community here with some more new blood.
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the
same level of thinking with which we created them.
- Albert Einstein
Öjevind Lång
news:Xns9C28A4F5...@147.243.252.16...
[snip]
> Calvin joined in 2006
> NY Teacher has been around since 2007
>
> I dare say that there are others as well, but I remember these two
> saying that they've joined after the films.
There's a whole bunch of posters who joined after the films, but I'll not
list those that immediately come to mind since it feels a little
unnecessary.
�jevind
Raven
news:8fjYl.6725$Gn4....@newsfe10.iad...
Now that you're here, do you remember why the inkdrop was blue?
Corvo.
Morgoth's Curse
wrote:
>Done! I've used the name suggested above, or here's a URL that seems
>to work:
>
>http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=92307902485
>
>As the group creator, I'm listed as an "admin", but we should
>certainly have others (particularly given my lack of free time during
>the academic year). I think Troels would be a good choice (he's been
>running the pages on silenceisdefeat, anyway); who else has been
>active here a while, has joined the Facebook group, and wants the keys
>to the building?
This site is technically the property of the Dead Thread Faction as we
are the de facto overlords of the Tolkien newsgroups. However, it
pleases us to allow our pitiful slaves Steuard Jensen & Troels
Forchhammer to maintain it. ^_^
Seriously, Steuard, I would normally be happy to help, but I am
literally booked for the rest of this year. My family is finally
liquidating my father's estate and I will be busy during the next
several months selling his books, tools and such of his possessions as
we do not want. Hopefully, we will be finished by the end of the year
and I will be able to create a Facebook account and join you all. In
the meantime, I will refer all Tolkien fans to this site. Good luck!
Morgoth's Curse
Morgoth's Curse
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>In message <news:jh8435pkd9rn9rldp...@4ax.com>
>Morgoth's Curse <morgoths...@nospam.yahoo.com> spoke these
>staves:
>>
>
><snip>
>
>> I cannot, offhand, think of a single person who joined this
>> newsgroup after watching the movies and who still posts.
>
>Well, if that doesn't prove that you really ought to come by more
>often, I don't know what does ;-)
>
>It reminds me -- didn't you do a 'Who's Who' survey? What became of the
>result?
It was last posted in 2008. Thereafter there simply weren't
enough members here to make it worth the trouble. I'll be happy to
post it again if there is sufficient interest. We could either link
to the thread in Google or copy and paste each reply into an HTML page
if you wish to add it to your website.
>Calvin joined in 2006
>NY Teacher has been around since 2007
>
>I dare say that there are others as well, but I remember these two
>saying that they've joined after the films.
Since I cannot challenge your argument, I'll embrace the
time-honored Usenet tactic of redefining my definitions. ;-) I was
only referring to the drooling cretins who oozed into AFT/RABT and
declared "Jackson did it better than Tolkien!"
And now I will resurrect another Usenet tradition and gloat about
how I just destroyed your argument with my impeccable logic! ^_^
>> The only folks who still post are those who share both a
>> profound devotion to the works of Tolkien and a love of
>> the community which has evolved over the years.
>
>The first is a requirement and the other not a hindrance, I think ;-)
That is one reason why I prefer to think of the Tolkien
newsgroups as an archive which anyone can consult rather than as just
another place to discuss the works of Tolkien. There must be
thousands of lurkers here who only make a few posts, yet provide us
with fascinating insights and perspectives.
Morgoth's Curse
Steve Hayes
>In message <<slrnh306v...@krk.inf.ed.ac.uk>>, Julian Bradfield
><j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>> What's the advantage of a specific web forum over a specific (free)
>> NNTP server? (Does IE have a news client built in?)
>
>Well, to begin with, I haven't actually managed to locate any free
>NNTP servers that allow posting and reliably propagate said posts to
>the rest of Usenet, not that I've been looking long. (I suppose that
>a completely isolated NNTP server wouldn't be any more of a break from
>the current groups than a web forum would be, but it would suffer from
>being even less discoverable than either, and we'd lose Google's
>archiving ability.)
The one I use (Motzarella.org) seems to work pretty well.
One of the problems is that many ISPs hare dropping news feeds, which makes it
difficult for people to find unless they know where to look.
There are dozens of web-based forums for Inklings discussions, but that
dilutes the communications, because I sometimes can't remember who said what
in which one, and if something comes that I want to follow up I can waste a
lot of time looking for the group that has the person who said it. As a
result, I don't bother to look in those, unless there has been a vary quiet
period on the Usenet groups.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
Taemon
> I cannot, offhand, think of a single
> person who joined this newsgroup after watching the movies and who
> still posts.
/me raises finger
T.
SRM
"Raven" <jon.lennart.be...@mail.its.in.danmark> wrote in message
news:4a3304da$1$56793$edfa...@dtext02.news.tele.dk...
(Notice how I waited a couple of days in order to build the tension? Oh, I
haven't lost my touch!)
The inkdrop was blue
B
E
C
A
U
S
E
His mom was in the pen, and he didn't know how long the sentence was going
to be!
(And -- credit where it's due -- thanks for the word "blue," it's much
better than the original "sad"!)
Derek Broughton
Me too.
--
derek
Raven
> (And -- credit where it's due -- thanks for the word "blue," it's much
> better than the original "sad"!)
Thank you.
<bows>
<or bobs, bird-like>
<fresh-baked bread also puts me in a better mood. even with my mediocre
cooking skills it is much better than store-bought>
Have you learnt more jokes, or are you still satisfied with this one?
Three braggarts were bragging about how high they had flown.
"I've flown so high that I could see lakes and forests on the Moon!"
"I've flown so high that I saw the Man in the Moon!"
"That was me."
Korp. Ravn. Ramn.
Troels Forchhammer
> NNTP servers that allow posting and reliably propagate said posts
> to the rest of Usenet, not that I've been looking long.
You might wish to take a look at <http://www.freeusenetnews.com/>
Other places to start looking:
Google Directory:
<http://www.google.com/Top/Computers/Usenet/Public_News_Servers/>
Free Usenet.org:
<http://www.freeusenet.org/>
alt.free.newsservers>
<news:alt.free.newsservers>
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.free.newsservers/topics>
On the other hand, I suspect that you might consider a reliability
(very low down-time), high completion rate and good spam-filtering to
be worth the 10 Euros per year demanded by news.individual.net -- and
if long retention (2033 days in text groups -- staggering!) is of
import, the $3 per month for the cheapest Giganews plan shouldn't
appear extravagant to most people, and it should suffice to anyone
wanting mainly the text groups (3 GB per month is a _lot_ of text to
download).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.
- /Interesting Times/ (Terry Pratchett)
Cat_in_awe
> In message <<slrnh306v...@krk.inf.ed.ac.uk>>, Julian Bradfield
> <j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> I really wish that I had a golden solution -- I certainly share
>>> your distaste for web forums, but if someone was to find a suitable
>>> web-forum that has some reasonable threading, I suppose it could
>>> be tempting
>
>> What's the advantage of a specific web forum over a specific (free)
>> NNTP server? (Does IE have a news client built in?)
>
> NNTP servers that allow posting and reliably propagate said posts to
> the rest of Usenet, not that I've been looking long.
I've had good results with (free) news.motzarella.org. Go to
www.motzarella.org to sign up. (For some reason just today their NNTP
server name has been renamed to news.eternal-september.org.) Good retention
and propagation.
Tamf Moo
> I've had good results with (free) news.motzarella.org. Go to
> www.motzarella.org to sign up. (For some reason just today their NNTP
> server name has been renamed to news.eternal-september.org.)
hah, that must be wishful thinking on their part. Usenet has now reached
november, and they know it.
--
tamf
see ei ole minu kohuke.
Troels Forchhammer
Joanne Corsano <joa...@picturelake.com> spoke these staves:
>
<snip>
> Although I have read LotR and The Hobbit dozens of times and I
> started a Tolkien club when I was in high school in the '70s, my
> level of expertise and knowledge of the books is so much less than
> that of many of the regular posters that I usually only read and
> admire, rather than contribute.
I'll just voice my agreement with Dirk that it is often not the new
knowledge (which one can get by reading the books) that makes the
discussions interesting, but rather the new perspectives.
For my own part, I will often be influenced by other perspectives --
even if I, initially, argue against a certain view, I've often found
myself gravitating in that direction so that my position has shifted
the next time the question comes up.
> But I would absolutely hate to see the ngs die, as some of the
> other ngs that I used to read have done. And I would hate to see
> those awful web based forums be the only Tolkien discussion areas
> left.
And here I can once more demonstrate the advantage of waiting a bit:
I agree with Steuard ;-)
We _will_ keep the newsgroups alive, and we _will_ stick to usenet,
though we'll also need an effective presence on the world-wide web --
on HTTP as a supplement to our primary NNTP.
If anyone has some more experience than I with designing web-sites, I
would greatly appreciate any help with the
<http://silenceisdefeat.com/~aft-rabt/> site. Also I've speculated
whether we should go a step further and buy a more fancy name (a .net
or a .org domain is, I believe, typically about 15 - 20 EUR per
year).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal
nothing.
- Frodo Baggins, /The Return of the King/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Igenlode
> In message
> <99ada70d-621b-43cd...@t16g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>
> ztsc <mr.z...@gmail.com> spoke these staves:
[snip]
> > If only you could tell Google Groups to send all posts via email,
>
> If I click 'Edit my subscription' while viewing RABT, I get the options
> to have 'No Email,' 'Abridged Email' ('No more than 1 email per day')
> or 'Digest Email' ('Approximately 1 email per day'). I cannot choose to
> get the individual messages as individual e-mails, but the digest gives
> the full messages in bundles of 25 (and possibly closing each bundle at
> midnight server-time, I don't know). But of course none of these gives
> you the opportunity to respond to a message by e-mail (I've seen
> someone -- Igenlode, IIRC -- who used an e-mail to NNTP service).
>
Yes, that's me ;-)
But I *really* wouldn't want the entire content of Usenet -- or even
r.a.b.t. -- dumped in my inbox on a regular basis...
Usenet has had it, I'm afraid.
I've watched this same discussion on two other groups I frequent,
alt.movies.silent and rec.games.roguelike.angband, and both have now
all but been killed off by 'parallel' web forums, which I've glanced at
a couple of times but have no interest in monitoring. (The loss of the
silent-films newsgroup is particularly annoying, as one used to be able
to learn a great deal by lurking there; now all the entertaining
posters, not to mention all the female posters(!), have chosen to
migrate onto some forum whose URL I can't even remember, and there is
little left for the lurker. For the first six months or so the 'admin'
used to post a list of 'top forum threads of the month' with titles and
links, and I did occasionally look at those, items of interest having
been pre-identified, as it were. Now even that link has gone and I never
see any of it at all.)
--
Igenlode Wordsmith Lurker Extraordinaire
A.B.C.D.E.F. "To Errol's human, but to Flynn -- divine"
Noel Q. von Schneiffel
> wrote:
>
> Usenet has had it, I'm afraid.
>
> I've watched this same discussion on two other groups I frequent,
> alt.movies.silent and rec.games.roguelike.angband, and both have now
> all but been killed off by 'parallel' web forums, which I've glanced at
> a couple of times but have no interest in monitoring. (The loss of the
> silent-films newsgroup is particularly annoying, as one used to be able
> to learn a great deal by lurking there; now all the entertaining
> posters, not to mention all the female posters(!), have chosen to
> migrate onto some forum whose URL I can't even remember, and there is
> little left for the lurker. For the first six months or so the 'admin'
> used to post a list of 'top forum threads of the month' with titles and
> links, and I did occasionally look at those, items of interest having
> been pre-identified, as it were. Now even that link has gone and I never
> see any of it at all.)
Verily, I criticize thee. Are we, here on Usenet, not the last bastion
of true Tolkien scholardom in a world that has been taken over by
ignorance? (Okay, the third to last bastion after the FATS Forum and
Elfling-d.) What kind of standard-bearers are we if we do not gladly
accept the discomfort of a webforum, if it helps our cause to advance
knowledge about Tolkien throughout the internet? Go forth and
multiply, I say. Let us shake off the shackles of comfort that bind us
to the ever-decaying Usenet, and carry the light into those muddled
places.
And I don't want to hear any more complaints about those webfora being
"uncomfortable". When I won the Ironman in 1997, I was accused of
doping by the nefarious agents of my arch-enemy Philip Pullman. I
could only escape by stealing a paraglider and flying into the crater
of Pu'u 'O'o, where the lava ruined my best wooden running sandals.
*That* was uncomfortable.
Noel
Öjevind Lång
meddelandet
news:c126f53f-0a8e-4a55...@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
> And I don't want to hear any more complaints about those webfora being
> "uncomfortable". When I won the Ironman in 1997, I was accused of
> doping by the nefarious agents of my arch-enemy Philip Pullman. I
> could only escape by stealing a paraglider and flying into the crater
> of Pu'u 'O'o, where the lava ruined my best wooden running sandals.
> *That* was uncomfortable.
I believe thee, oh mighty Schneiffel, but the web fora *are* unwieldy and
uncomfortable. I just can't help hoping that the newer Internet geeks will
one day discover how much niftier Usenet is.
�jevind
Troels Forchhammer
Igenlode <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> spoke these
staves:
> Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in message
> <Xns9C288EEF...@147.243.252.16>
>>
>> NNTP service).
>
> Yes, that's me ;-)
>
> But I *really* wouldn't want the entire content of Usenet -- or
> even r.a.b.t. -- dumped in my inbox on a regular basis...
It's only averaging about 10 posts per day ;-)
But how does it work?
Do you read using a normal newreader and a no-posting server? And how
does the 'mail2news' work?
> Usenet has had it, I'm afraid.
That's a rather bleak outlook, isn't it?
I don't doubt that that will be the ultimate fate, but I don't think
we're quite there yet -- the discussions over the past month have
convinced me that there is still a future for usenet, though it is, and
will probably never be, the vigorous, vibrant place it was around the
turn of the millennium.
New newsgroups are still being made and recieve traffic --
sci.physics.foundations is from 2007 and has a reasonable amount of
traffic (more than RABT & AFT in any case).
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human
stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein