E-text: Book VI, Chapter 9 - At long last!
Prembone the Magnificent
said we were daft to attempt an E-text of The Lord of the Rings, but
we attempted it all the same. The first Book of the E-text was in
danger of sinking into the swamp; so we built a second Book. That,
too, sank into the swamp, or at least veered perilously toward
Disneyland; so we built a third, and a fourth, and a fifth. Upon this
excellent foundation was built Book Six, and here we are: The Final
Chapter!!! Yes, I know Ojevind is writing an Epilogue, but
technically an Epilogue isn't a chapter, it's an Epilogue, and--
*GET ON WITH IT!!!*
Ahem. As I was saying, this is a historic moment, and I can't believe
I'm actually standing up here, and, well, I didn't really prepare a
speech, but I do have some people I'd like to thank.
A big, big thank you to Steuard Jensen, who not only beta'd this
chapter and offered some excellent suggestions that made it what it is
today, but also kept me advised of the progress of the project, even
when Real Life interfered with my Art. Friend, advisor, diplomat, and
far better at avoiding pissing people off than I could ever hope to
be, I couldn't have done it without him.
And thank you ever so much to O. Sharp, whose revolutionary "Scorching
of the Shire" gave me just the inspiration I needed to perform what
seemed like an inhumanly daunting task, to write the denoument of this
grand and glorious Epic, and also played right into the ending I long
envisioned, albeit in skeletal form. O.'s chapter enabled me to put
some interesting pieces of flesh upon those bones.
And, too, I want to thank Ojevind Lang, whose name properly has some
kind of marks over a couple of the letters, but I wouldn't be a Real
American if I took the trouble to correctly render a non-American
name, and being less than a Real American in the post-nine-one-one
world just might get me lynched. Be that as it may, my esteem and
thanks go to Ojevind for agreeing, in collaboration with O. and
Steuard, to allow me the honor of writing the E-text version of "The
Grey Havens." I promised that I would not turn it into a "Rescue
Frodo" episode, and I have kept that promise: for in truth, at this
point it seems all of these characters are beyond rescuing, though at
the closing of this project we shall let them all go, in the hope that
they may find their cure.
Last, but not least, I want to thank my Lord and Saviour Elton John,
without whom none of this would have been possible. How wonderful
life is while He is in the world!
And now, without further doo-doo, I present to you The Final Chapter,
Book VI, Chapter 9....
*** PUERTOGRISO ***
(Or: The Gay Havens)
by Prembone
When Frodo awoke, he found that he was lying in some soft bed, but it
was not upon the forest floor, that forest in which, exhausted from
wandering in exile, he had lain down and prayed to whatever deity
might yet give a tin penny for any prayer of his that he would never
again wake up. This bed was in a bedroom, a bedroom furnished and
paneled lavishly, to the point of conspicuously consumptive
extravagance. Blinking, Frodo wondered if this could be heaven or
this could be hell.
"What's this?...I'm back to my normal size...and...my sexual confusion
is gone...and...no Bilbo in my head...?" He stretched and drew a deep
breath. "Why, what a dream I've had! I am glad to wake!"
"FRODO! FRODO, MY DEAR FELLOW!"
A great hearty laugh jolted him three feet off the bed, and back
again: and there, standing by his bedside, was Sam, clad in a
pinstriped suit of shiny blue serge. Great was his belly, and golden
were the chains that dangled across the many-buttoned weskit that
stretched valiantly across his great belly.
"A great Shadow has departed!" he laughed, and in that laugh was the
jingling of coin and the rustling of bills and the chinging of many a
cash register and the ticking of many leagues of stock-price tape. It
was a bullish laugh, eternally young and virile and full of vigor,
charging upward, ever-upward, with no limits to growth. It was a
laugh which captured value and freed trade in the name of Global
Prosperity.
"Why--Sam--I thought you were a Socialist! Then again, I thought I
was dead meat. Was it all a dream, then? And is everything sad going
to come untrue?"
"It was no dream, Frodo," chortled Sam. "But you have slept long and
hard--"
"--and full of--yeah, yeah--"
"Oh, ho ho!" Sam's belly shook, when he laughed, like a bowl full of
caviar. "Do you wonder, Ring-eater, at the restoration of your
stature and sanity and sexual orientation? For you know the power of
that which has been destroyed; and all that was done by that power has
passed away. And, lo! It has been six long months that you have lain
in slumber, regaining your health; and though to Mortal mind six
months may seem but half a year, in the reckoning of the Markets an
entire Age of the Shire has come and gone. The Old Order has been
overthrown, and a new Golden Age of Capitalism has begun!"
"Capitalism!" gasped Frodo. "Why, Sam, can it be--?"
"Yes, Frodo." Sam smiled benevolently. "Capitalism has returned to
the Shire--but it is all right; for this time, *I* am on *top*." He
gave Frodo a lewd and knowing wink--which prompted thoughts that made
Frodo blush from the curls on his head to the curls on his feet.
"For you see," Sam went on, "it is the wont of human economic behavior
that Socialist utopias are doomed to dwindle under the weight of their
own benevolence; and so it has come to pass. SELFISHNESS!" he roared,
knocking about three months off Frodo's life expectancy.
"Selfishness, my dear fellow. *That* is what makes the world go
round. And here we are, and we are RICH! Filthy, stinking,
ever-loving other-people's-money RICH!"
And he laughed again, and on and on he laughed, and Frodo was caught
up in great rolling waves of laughter at the prospect of once again
being filthy, stinking, ever-loving other-people's-money rich; or
perhaps it was from the sheer relief of not having been flayed alive
and roasted for a scooby snack for the dalmatians of the proletarian
firehouse; however it may be explained, Frodo laughed long and hard
and full with Sammy.
Great was their laughter, and great was their mirth, and great was
their joy that was built upon the backs of the oppressed classes. And
Frodo laughed all the merrier as he came to understand that this,
truly, was the ending: Not only the days but the nights, too, would
be beautiful and blessed; for to Frodo's eyes, as if he were seeing
with OtherVisionTM, Sam's true and hidden desires were at last laid
bare.
"Oh, *Sam!*" cried Frodo, springing from his bed and leaping into
Sam's arms. And Sam said not a word, but went straight to his work,
locking the bedroom door and busying himself with removing Frodo's
nightshirt.
***
When their passion had at long last been played out, Sam rolled onto
his side and propped himself up on one elbow. "We can't be doing
this, anymore, you know," he said, looking soberly into Frodo's eyes.
Frodo's lower lip quivered. It usually worked, but this time Sam was
having none of it.
*Damn it. He means it.*
"Damn it. I mean it." With his other hand Sam reached for Frodo's
and clasped it. "I'm a married Hobbit, now. I've got an image to
maintain, an empire to build. I can't be frisking about with you,
however much I may wish to."
Frodo said nothing, but tears began to well up.
"Oh, Frodo, Frodo," sighed Sam. "We'll always have the Emyn Mail."
With his hefty hand he gently lifted Frodo's chin, till the other
Hobbit was looking into his eyes.
Sam gave Frodo a reserved, masculine smile. "Here's looking at you."
***
Frodo settled quietly into the role of homewrecking fifth wheel at the
newly remodeled Money-Bags End. He worked sporadically on finishing a
book filled with dirty limericks he had composed especially for Sam;
but he no longer had the heart to enjoy them, and the project was soon
abandoned. In later years the unfinished manuscript, entitled by
Frodo *The Red-light Book of Shire-smut*, being translated into the
scholarly tongue as *Chiquita Banana*, became a source of popular
drinking songs among learned University Students. In still later
years *Chiquita Banana* was transformed by the renowned Bywater
composer Farl Orcc into a musical arrangement for orchestra and
chorus, which made classical music aficionados feel Very Refined
indeed, to listen to Great Music inspired by a Work in the Scholarly
Tongue.
If he could not have Sam, Frodo at least found some consolation--among
other sensations--in spending countless hours sliding down the
firepole that Sam had left as a quaint relic of the mansion's former
incarnation.
Sam did his best to make Frodo feel at home. For, as it turned out,
it *was* Frodo's home: When the dust of wheeling and dealing and
proletarian revolution had settled, the beginning and end of the
matter was that Frodo was still the full owner of Money-Bags End, nee
Bag End, and all the varied and sundry properties thereof. The
document that Frodo had drawn up for Sam had, upon a closer
examination of the fine print, bequeathed to Sam not the ownership but
merely the authority to *manage* Frodo's property in the event of
Frodo's absence, temporary or otherwise, from the same.
But Sam had proven himself far better at managing other people's
(namely, Frodo's) money in the past six months than Frodo had done for
the past six years times three; and so Frodo now readily agreed--yea,
insisted--that Sam was entitled to a full half-share, fifty-fifty,
down the middle, partners for life, in deed if not in flagrante
delicto.
***
Well, the fundamental things apply as time goes by; and as time went
by, Sam had a vague concern about his partner in capitalism. It might
have had something to do with Frodo's increasing withdrawal from
society functions; or it might have had to do with his increasing
habit of muttering things to himself in a strange tongue; or it might
have had to do with his increasing fondness for poring over a
well-worn and much-dogeared copy of *Final Exit*. Even worse, it was
rumored amongst the better circles of Hobbiton that Frodo had been
seen wandering the woods at night, scantily clad. More than one
reliable witness reported that Frodo had taken to wearing a codpiece
imprinted with an Elven Rune, which he would often finger.
***
Spring turned to summer, and summer turned to autumn, and Frodo turned
to Sam and asked if he would accompany him on a short journey.
"How short?" asked Sam, his voice husky and low.
Frodo looked up at Sam. "Why do you ask, Sam? Does it matter? I
promise you'll come back home, safe and sound."
"OH, MR. FRODO!" cried Sam, bursting into tears and flinging himself
upon Frodo. "That's hard, it is! And I don't mean in a good way!
You're planning to leave me, aren't you?" he blubbered.
"Sam--"
"I tried, Mr. Frodo! I really did try, but it's no good pretending
any longer that I don't love you!" He sobbed bitterly, his
capitalist-pig hulk heaving as if he were but a simple gardener in
love with a simple country squire in a simple hole-in-the-ground
village in an underprivileged country.
Frodo's eyes were wide, and stunned, as they peered over Sam's
quivering shoulder. "There, there, Sam," he said soothingly. "We'll
think of something."
***
On the twenty-second of September they set forth from Money-Bags End,
Sam wearing a camel trench-coat over his suit and a dashing fedora
cocked at an angle over one eye, and Frodo clad in what looked to Sam
like audition-wear for a role in a Yuletide shopping season
commercial: green tights and a green leotard with a round, red,
poinsettia-style collar adorning his neck and a jingle-bell-trimmed
pointy red cap adorning his head and that damned Rune-graven codpiece
adorning...erm, where codpieces usually adorn. Sam had no idea where
the hell they were going, but as long as he was with Frodo, everything
would be all right.
The road went ever on and on.
It was evening, some days later, and the stars were glimmering in the
sky as they passed out of the Shire through what may well have been
the Last Great Woodland on the Edge of Middle-earth. Sam was silent,
deep in libidinous reverie, and looking forward to making camp for the
night. Presently he became aware that Frodo was singing softly to
himself, singing an old corporate takeover song, but the words were
not the same.
Still round the corner there may wait
A cure for this curst bachelor fate;
And though I oft have passed you by,
Together we were meant to lie.
O! Fairest among Mortal or Elf!
When I think about you, I touch myself.
And as if in answer, from around the corner a clear, strong Elven
voice arose in song:
Down by the Shire Gardens
my love and I did meet.
He passed through the Shire Gardens
with little hairy feet.
He bid me take him sailing
when I pass far o'er the sea,
And I, being smitten by his beauty,
quite gladly did agree.
Sam cringed, wondering how the Elves had come by their reputation for
fair poetry, second to none. Just then he and Frodo emerged from the
woods to arrive at a seaport. A haven it was, dark and gray; and at
the haven awaited a large, white ship, long and hard and full of--
*GET ON WITH IT!*
--Elves. And standing among the Elves, who were waiting with some
impatience, was none other than Bilbo himself, distracted as usual
with contemplations that provoked him to smirk rather wickedly and
chuckle sordidly to himself.
"You're alive!" exclaimed Frodo.
Bilbo started and looked up, blinking bemusedly. "Hullo, Frodo!" he
said. "Yes, I am alive, and no thanks to El Rond--the old forger.
But we left him behind some time ago in the--*at*, *at* the river, so
he will trouble us no more." He rubbed his hands gleefully and beamed
chipperly at Frodo. "Well, Frodo, we're off to where the blessed go
at it day and night, and no one ever loses his mojo. Are you coming?"
At these words, a dark, lanky Elf with devastating bedroom eyes
stepped forward and draped his arm possessively around Frodo's
shoulders. "Yes, I am coming," said Frodo, reaching to lightly stroke
the Elf's hand.
"Where are you going, Frodo?" cried Sam, though at last he understood
what was happening. The matching Elven-Rune codpieces told him all he
needed to know.
"Over the Sea, Sam," said Frodo.
Sam blinked. "And I can't come."
"Well...no, Sam, I don't think that would be a good idea." Frodo
glanced up questioningly at the Elf, then looked back to Sam, his
voice suddenly stern. "Listen, Sam. Rosie's waiting back at
Money-Bags End, and when this ship leaves, I'm going to be on it, and
you're going to be on your way back to her."
"But--I thought we--you and me--"
"Rosie needs you, Sam. The Shire needs you. I know you love me, and
I love you, but if there's one thing I've learned, Sam, it's that the
happiness of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in
this world."
The tears glittered in Frodo's eyes, or maybe they were in Sam's own
eyes as he gazed back at Frodo. Even as the Elves made ready to
depart, Frodo and Sam stood there, on the quay, suddenly overcome with
misty water-colored memories of the way they were.
*Can it be it was all so simple, then?* thought Sam. *Or has time
rewritten every line?*
"Sam," said Frodo in a hushed voice. "If we had the chance to do it
all again, tell me...would we? Could we...?"
Just then, out of the corner of his eye, Sam caught a movement in the
woods.
"Listen, Frodo!" he suddenly barked out, giving Frodo a shove. "When
this ship leaves with that Elf on it, you're going to be on it with
him! 'Cause if there's one thing I've learned--" *shove* "--it's that
the happiness of three little--um, two little people and one
Elf--don't amount to--"
"Wait a minute, those are *my* lines," protested Frodo, pouting.
"Damn it, Frodo!" shouted Sam, shoving Frodo up the gangplank.
"Hurry! *Hurry!*"
Frodo hurried, stopping at the top only to say, "Oh, by the way, Sam,
here are the papers signing over my fifty percent of Money-Bags End to
you--"
"Yes, yes, whatever! Just *GO!*" cried Sam, catching the thick
envelope and stuffing it into his suit pocket as he cast an anxious
glance back toward the woods.
And Frodo went aboard the ship, clasping the hand of the waiting Elf,
whence they disappeared straightaway to somewhere below the deck of
the ship. And the gangplank was drawn up, and magically the ship
propelled itself at about Mach 5 away from the shore, and vanished
into a thick fog that rolled in with great haste.
Sam breathed a sigh of relief. He turned, and watched as Morrie ran
toward him, wearing a monocle and clad in a black leather uniform.
"Ach! Baggins hahs gott avay! Eru in Himmel!" he cried in an
incredibly-bad-even-for-Hollywood Teutonic accent. "Vell, Meister
Gamchee," intoned the one-handed mobster through a serpentine sliver
of a smile, "you vood do vell to come mit me, vitout a fight."
Sam stood his ground, staring stonily at Morrie.
"Very vell." Morrie raised his eyebrows and cocked his pistol--or was
that pistoled his--
*GET ON WITH IT!*
Ahem.
Morrie raised his eyebrows and cocked his pistol. "I shahll count zu
zehn, und may ze besst Hoppit vin." He paced slowly toward Sam.
"Eins...zwei...drei...vier...fuenf...sechs...sieben...acht...neun--"
BAM! BAM! BAM-BAM-BAM!!!
"AAACCCHH!!! du Hamsterlieber!!!" cried Morrie, clutching his chest as
crimson bloomed across the starched white shirt under his leather
trench coat. He collapsed, slowly, elegantly, into a
scarlet-and-black heap upon the dark gray stone from which the seaport
had been carved.
BAM! BAM! BAM-BAM-BAM!!!
"All right, Bam-Bam, you can shut up," muttered Sam, blowing the smoke
from the end of his pistol. "The bastard's dead." The white-haired
club-wielding tot ambled off, back through the time-warp whence he'd
come.
Sam looked up, then, to see Pipsqueak emerging from behind a tree,
regarding him with new admiration. "You know, Sam," he said, linking
his arm with Sam's, "I think this could be the start of a beautiful
friendship."
"No, thank you," declared Sam, pulling his arm free. "I've had enough
'friendship' to last me a lifetime." Yet he cast a last, wistful
glance over his shoulder, at the darkling sea upon which the ship had
vanished into the fog. A little tear glimmered in the corner of his
eye, and he sniffed.
Pipsqueak watched him, and decided it was best to leave the old
soldier to his memories. He slipped off, saying nothing, but was
singing by the time he reached the first bordello on the border of the
Shire.
***
At last Sam began to walk slowly homewards, the waves of the sea
echoing in his heart; and he slept, and walked some more, and slept
some more, and walked some more, and so forth and so on, until at last
he was ascending the Hill to the front door of Money-Bags End. And
there was yellow light within, and the promising aromas of a sumptous
seven-course meal wafting to greet him when he stepped inside; and
Rosie was waiting in the parlor, hands planted on her hips and one
eyebrow raised in expectation.
"Well?" said Rosie.
"Well." A slow grin spread over Sam's face. "We're home free."
"You mean--?"
"I *mean*," declared Sam, flinging his arms around his plump
capitalist trophy-wife, "it's OURS! ALL OURS!" He threw back his
head and laughed heartily as he swung Rosie around in an exuberant
dance. "We're in the money! We're in the money!"
"I told you!" laughed Rosie. "Didn't I tell you he'd do it, if you
just played your cards right and had a bit of patience?"
"That you did, my Rose; that you did." Sam halted their dance and
pressed Rosie to himself for a kiss.
"Baby," he said. "You're the greatest."
*** THE END ***
(But stay tuned for the Epilogue...)
O. Sharp
> And thank you ever so much to O. Sharp, whose revolutionary "Scorching
> of the Shire" gave me just the inspiration I needed [...]
It did?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
o...@drizzle.com I know it's strange, but for the life of me I
just can't draw that line between Point A and
Point B.
Chrysalis
was being written can download the entire tale?
Prembone the Magnificent
> Hahahaha. Is there anywhere those of us not here the whole time this
> was being written can download the entire tale?
It's on O. Sharp's web site, at http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/book/
He has it formatted very nicely, making it ideal for printing on
3-hole laser paper and storing in a binder for leisurely reading,
should you so desire. It's quite long, though, so be prepared to do a
lot of printing. Otherwise, it's readable enough online.
And thanks for being the first person to mention that you *enjoyed*
the chapter. ;-) I did put a lot of work into it, even if at first
blush it seems like a case of looking for logic in all the wrong
places, and it's nice to know that my labor was not in vain. Of
course, I would have done it all the same, even were I to have
perished in the fires of Mordor and no one to have known the tale of
my heroic deeds. Frankly, I wasn't sure if I'd ever get to the point
of writing it, or if the project would peter out somewhere in the
middle. As I said, it's truly a historic moment.
Now if only we could get some journalists to stop by for a bit of LOTR
fact-checking...
Prembone
Prembone the Magnificent
I said your chapter inspired me. I said nothing about the inspiration
following a linear path. ;-)
As I mentioned, I had a very rough idea of where I wanted the story to
end up even as far back as Book IV, Chapter One. When I wrote the
Barrow Downs chapter, at that early phase I was just having fun with
the whole Ring-mojo connection that had been established, as well as
some of the old "what *about* Frodo and Sam, anyway"
discussions/debates/flames (ahem) that had taken place about the time
of its writing.
But by the time we got to the Emyn Mail, and Sam's subversive intents
became plain, I knew one thing: The whole ridiculous Quest, beginning
to end, along with all of Sam's "revolutionary" posturing, not to
mention certain other types of, ahem, posturing, would prove to be a
grand scheme, orchestrated by Rosie and executed by Sam, to acquire
Bag End and all its sundry properties and power, with Frodo's full
consent and blessing (far more satisfying and secure than a hostile
takeover). How this was to be accomplished, I did not know, beyond a
vague idea that, hopefully, the Revolution would indeed take place in
the "Scouring" chapter, but it would not take root and, somehow,
entropy would soon revert things back to usual. Sam would marry Rose,
Frodo would be too deeply hurt by his broken heart and get into a
rebound relationship, there would still be some ambiguity on Sam's
part re: his feelings for Frodo, and so Frodo, leaving, would bequeath
Bag End to Sam. I also knew I had to work in the "three little
people" line from Casablanca, somehow, and that when Sam got married
he would use the "here's looking at you" line as a form of
consolation.
I also came up with the Elven-Rune codpiece fairly early on. ;-)
Now, when I read your chapter, my first thought was, "Oh, shit. He's
exiled Frodo and Morrie. He's burned down all the trees in the Shire,
and there's no way things are just going to slip back into usual Shire
routine. What the HELL am I going to do with THIS?"
At first I despaired. Clearly, the idea of life at Bag End slipping
entropy-like back into life as usual wasn't going to happen. And I
had no idea what to do with an exiled six-foot bald and rather
frightening Frodo and a disowned, maimed, and not too well Morrie.
Then, somehow, illumination struck. My mind made the connection
between Frodo's wandering in exile and the scene with Sam's awakening
in Ithilien. And, somehow, Frodo took on Sam's role, and Sam took on
Gandalf's, and before I knew it I had the perfect deus ex machina for
getting Frodo back into the Shire on peaceful terms. Sam, I saw, was
not going to accomplish his goal from the standpoint of still being
Frodo's servant, nor from the standpoint of rhetoric-spouting
Revolutionary, but from the standpoint of having been a closet
capitalist all along, one who had "truly" loved Frodo all along, but
who had to do all the other stuff, keep his "true" nature hidden, in
order to ultimately accomplish the securing of Bag End and making it
thrive more than ever. His jerking around of Frodo's affections
served to accomplish the fine balance that would prompt Frodo to
leave, yet also still have enough emotional tie to Sam to want to sign
over the estate to him.
Your bit with the University also inspired the "Chiquita Banana"
passage as the ultimate fate of the Red Book.
The bit with Bilbo in Frodo's head that you perpetuated was, I
decided, simply a manifestation of Frodo's tattered sanity, healed
when he awoke to the New Age. ;-) Bilbo *had* to be alive at the end,
because nobody else could deliver that line about the Mojo of the
Blessed quite the way he could. I dearly wanted to insert something
about who the hell, then, Don Giovanni was, but couldn't work it into
the flow of the text. My answer was going to be "only the Shadow
knows..." but maybe Öjevind can have Sam explaining it to his children
in the Epilogue, assuming he's planning on having the Epilogue in any
way faintly resemble Tolkien's Epilogues. Otherwise, it doesn't hurt
to leave a few loose ends and unexplaineds; a story that ties up
*every* loose end is in danger of losing all credibility. ;-)
I believe you were the creator of the Bogart-film version of the LOTR
movie? That planted the seeds of using bits from Casablanca, which
ultimately became a stronger leitmotif throughout this last chapter,
even (obscurely) to the influencing of the title. Casablanca = white
house, Puertogriso = gray port (haven/s). It was originally simply
going to be "The Gay Havens," meaning the joy of the Blessed Land
(~~~day AND night! woo-hoo!~~~) as much as the obvious allusion to
sexual orientation (in Frodo and his Elf-friend's case, at least).
Hence, I ended up with a subtitle for the chapter.
Finally, what was to be the fate of Morrie the Mobster? Originally
I'd had a vague idea of him and Pipsqueak "riding up in great haste"
to collect a debt from Frodo, but that was clearly out. Then the
Casablanca connection came to my rescue: On the anniversary edition
of the video, there's some stuff about the making of Casablanca; and
in that stuff, there was the tale of how they settled on the ending of
Casablanca. Would Rick go on the plane with Ilsa, or would he not?
They found their answer by asking, Who does the viewer most want to
see killed? The Nazi dude. And who would the viewer most want to see
kill him? Rick. And so Rick had to stay behind.
Now, my own twisted little mind somehow connected between this
remembered bit of bonus footage and Morrie, still wandering about in
exile. And it became clear: Morrie would show up at the Havens,
having gone stark raving bonkers as a result of his exile and injuries
and fatigue, thinking he was the Nazi from Casablanca. No doubt his
ill memories of Otto somehow twisted into making him (attempt to)
adopt the accent. ;-) And, since Sam was more or less cast into the
role of Rick, he would be the one to shoot Morrie, with more than a
little credibility in the motivation.
Does that make sense? It doesn't have to. All I really cared, in the
end, was that everyone laughed at the twist ending, not to mention the
bad puns, cultural allusions, and innuendoes scattered throughout.
Prembone
David Salo
secula...@yahoo.com (Prembone the Magnificent) wrote:
> AUTHOR'S NOTE: Upon this
> excellent foundation was built Book Six, and here we are: The Final
> Chapter!!!
Which, rather than being built upon the aforesaid foundations, sort
of floats in the air beside them...
Honestly, this might be a fine chapter as a stand-alone parody; it
just doesn't seem to have much, if anything, to do with the E-text.
> When Frodo awoke, he found that he was lying in some soft bed, but it
> was not upon the forest floor, that forest in which, exhausted from
> wandering in exile, he had lain down and prayed to whatever deity
> might yet give a tin penny for any prayer of his that he would never
> again wake up.
This really doesn't connect with the end of the previous chapter
at all.
This bed was in a bedroom, a bedroom furnished and
> paneled lavishly, to the point of conspicuously consumptive
> extravagance. Blinking, Frodo wondered if this could be heaven or
> this could be hell.
Frodo's in the "Hotel California"? I suppose there were more
jokes of this sort, but this was the only one I got.
> "What's this?...I'm back to my normal size...and...my sexual confusion
> is gone...and...no Bilbo in my head...?" He stretched and drew a deep
> breath. "Why, what a dream I've had! I am glad to wake!"
>
> "FRODO! FRODO, MY DEAR FELLOW!"
>
> A great hearty laugh jolted him three feet off the bed, and back
> again: and there, standing by his bedside, was Sam, clad in a
> pinstriped suit of shiny blue serge. Great was his belly, and golden
> were the chains that dangled across the many-buttoned weskit that
> stretched valiantly across his great belly.
>
> "A great Shadow has departed!" he laughed, and in that laugh was the
> jingling of coin and the rustling of bills and the chinging of many a
> cash register and the ticking of many leagues of stock-price tape. It
> was a bullish laugh, eternally young and virile and full of vigor,
> charging upward, ever-upward, with no limits to growth. It was a
> laugh which captured value and freed trade in the name of Global
> Prosperity.
You know, Sam had what might be called an Established Character
(TM). According to our precedents, highly acute plot twists are fine.
Character deformation to the point of unrecognizability is fine. But
for heaven's sakes, give us *some* sort of justification for the
change! If the Good Fairy (TM) Gates came down from Redmond and
pointed his Magic Wand (TM) at Sam and converted him from left-wing
politics, then at least say so -- or better yet, show it!
> "Why--Sam--I thought you were a Socialist! Then again, I thought I
> was dead meat. Was it all a dream, then? And is everything sad going
> to come untrue?"
>
> "It was no dream, Frodo," chortled Sam. "But you have slept long and
> hard--"
>
> "--and full of--yeah, yeah--"
>
> "Oh, ho ho!" Sam's belly shook, when he laughed, like a bowl full of
> caviar. "Do you wonder, Ring-eater, at the restoration of your
> stature and sanity and sexual orientation?
Frodo's *original* sexual orientation was heterosexual. Remember
Cassiopeia Took? (It shouldn't be difficult; she was in the last
chapter, after all). So if he was "restored" then he ought to be Str8.
But that's not what we sees, is it:
> "Oh, *Sam!*" cried Frodo, springing from his bed and leaping into
> Sam's arms. And Sam said not a word, but went straight to his work,
> locking the bedroom door and busying himself with removing Frodo's
> nightshirt.
> For you know the power of
> that which has been destroyed; and all that was done by that power has
> passed away.
That's sort of plausible, but deserves more explanation. And yet
Frodo was suffering from a number of ailments that had nothing to do
with the Ring at all.
> And, lo! It has been six long months that you have lain
> in slumber, regaining your health; and though to Mortal mind six
> months may seem but half a year, in the reckoning of the Markets an
> entire Age of the Shire has come and gone. The Old Order has been
> overthrown, and a new Golden Age of Capitalism has begun!"
And you've done precisely nothing to connect this with the
situation O. Sharp described in his chapter. You *could* have
sketched out a situation that made a meaningful transition, but you
haven't done so; you've just said "it's done". That's neither funny
nor good writing.
[Lots of gratuitous tildes snipped]
> --Elves. And standing among the Elves, who were waiting with some
> impatience, was none other than Bilbo himself, distracted as usual
> with contemplations that provoked him to smirk rather wickedly and
> chuckle sordidly to himself.
>
> "You're alive!" exclaimed Frodo.
>
> Bilbo started and looked up, blinking bemusedly. "Hullo, Frodo!" he
> said. "Yes, I am alive, and no thanks to El Rond--the old forger.
I don't particularly care about this plot point more than others
that have been abandoned or ignored. But this seems like a
spectacularly cavalier way to dismiss one; as well as making nonsense
of the scene in which El Rond provides Frodo evidence of Bilbo's fate,
where it's rather clear that Frodo would not have obtained the evidence
without pressing El Rond for it. So what would have been the point of
forgery?
If you wanted to bring Bilbo back to life, there certainly were
some imaginative ways you could have done it, and you could have filled
up several amusing paragraphs with details of Bilbo's narrow escape at
the Cracks of Doom, or at least a more detailed explanation of why his
letter doesn't mean what it seems to mean; but this way just doesn't
work.
And in the end, what does it get you? You revive Bilbo, but then
you don't *do* anything with him, and your chapter would lose nothing
if he were cut out. There's no purpose to your tinkering with the
previous text at all. So why bother? Why just alter the text for the
sake of altering it?
> *Can it be it was all so simple, then?* thought Sam. *Or has time
> rewritten every line?*
Would that be every line of the e-text? I don't think it was
time doing the re-writing...
> Sam breathed a sigh of relief. He turned, and watched as Morrie ran
> toward him, wearing a monocle and clad in a black leather uniform.
Why?
> "Ach! Baggins hahs gott avay! Eru in Himmel!" he cried in an
> incredibly-bad-even-for-Hollywood Teutonic accent. "Vell, Meister
> Gamchee," intoned the one-handed mobster through a serpentine sliver
> of a smile, "you vood do vell to come mit me, vitout a fight."
Is this Morrie? Or is this Otto? Either way, this character
doesn't seem to have much continuity with the previous chapters. I
know we've had some dialect problems, but this is a bit much. If it's
supposed to be an implicit criticism of this sort of thing in the
e-text, it is -- shall we say -- too subtle.
> "Very vell." Morrie raised his eyebrows and cocked his pistol--or was
> that pistoled his--
>
> *GET ON WITH IT!*
Uh, yeah.
I leave aside criticism of the remainder, except to say that this
chapter fails to be a satisfactory or satisfying conclusion to the
e-text. I realize that it's too much to expect this chapter to tie up
all the loose ends, but I would like to have seen *some* effort to
address some of them.
I also realize that tastes in humor vary, and _de gustibus non
disputandum_; I expect that some people found this chapter a hoot. For
myself, I thought that the humor relied far too much on low-grade smut;
and, I'm sorry to say, I read the chapter without cracking a smile.
This is in no way the worst of the chapters of the e-text, and has
the merits of a fluid, easy readability (*I* think); but it could have
been much better, if its contents had actually seemed to be a
continuation of the previous chapters rather than an attempt to refute
them. I would recommend a wholesale re-write.
David Salo
Aris Katsaris
"David Salo" <ds...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:310820021153007441%ds...@usa.net...
> In article <6e3ce81d.02082...@posting.google.com>,
> secula...@yahoo.com (Prembone the Magnificent) wrote:
>
> > AUTHOR'S NOTE: Upon this
> > excellent foundation was built Book Six, and here we are: The Final
> > Chapter!!!
>
> Which, rather than being built upon the aforesaid foundations, sort
> of floats in the air beside them...
> Honestly, this might be a fine chapter as a stand-alone parody; it
> just doesn't seem to have much, if anything, to do with the E-text.
>
> > When Frodo awoke, he found that he was lying in some soft bed, but it
> > was not upon the forest floor, that forest in which, exhausted from
> > wandering in exile, he had lain down and prayed to whatever deity
> > might yet give a tin penny for any prayer of his that he would never
> > again wake up.
>
> This really doesn't connect with the end of the previous chapter
> at all.
Eh... I'm sorry to say this but it's a standing complain this one I have
about all of Prembone's chapters - they might be perfectly fine if taken
by themselves but she really doesn't seem to care at all about continuity
with previous chapters and writers. At *all*...
That's a bad thing... I'd have certainly appreciated it if Prembone cared
to keep continuity about Gulible's gender for example, early in book IV.
Or if she were less determined to make (and then keep) Frodo gay for
some reason...
Aris Katsaris
the softrat
<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
>Eh... I'm sorry to say this but it's a standing complain this one I have
>about all of Prembone's chapters - they might be perfectly fine if taken
>by themselves but she really doesn't seem to care at all about continuity
>with previous chapters and writers. At *all*...
>
>That's a bad thing... I'd have certainly appreciated it if Prembone cared
>to keep continuity about Gulible's gender for example, early in book IV.
>Or if she were less determined to make (and then keep) Frodo gay for
>some reason...
>
Horse". It is not Now-Play-Nicely-With-The-Other-Children. It includes
aspects of 'Literary Solipsism and Bullying', not to mention 'Egoism'.
It does not work well in a cooperative venture.
the softrat "He who rubs owls"
the Zulu Princess
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
A conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking.
(Arthur Bloch)
Prembone the Magnificent
> secula...@yahoo.com (Prembone the Magnificent) wrote:
>
> > AUTHOR'S NOTE: Upon this
> > excellent foundation was built Book Six, and here we are: The Final
> > Chapter!!!
>
> Which, rather than being built upon the aforesaid foundations, sort
> of floats in the air beside them...
I built upon those foundations, just not in a way that you expected or
liked.
> Honestly, this might be a fine chapter as a stand-alone parody; it
> just doesn't seem to have much, if anything, to do with the E-text.
It has a great deal to do with it. But rather than get into an "is
not/is too" exchange, I'll just address the specific points you raised
below.
As far as the general issue of continuity goes, much of the theory
behind this chapter can be found in my reply to O. Sharp, q.v. And a
certain amount of disconnect was intentional: The dismissive deus ex
machina back to life as usual in the Shire was planned, not a
last-minute impulse for lack of any other ideas. What I wrote was
exactly what I wanted to do, assuming the Revolution took place, as
much to satirize utopianism as to create a what-the-HELL non-sequitur
effect. As I told O., I didn't know the details I would use until
after I read his chapter, but I knew utopia would be doomed to
dwindle, one way or 'tother. And it would not be Explained, just a
ludicrous fait accompli.
I also think that taking a previously introduced character or element
and twisting it to be Not What We Thought It Was counts as continuity.
> > When Frodo awoke, he found that he was lying in some soft bed, but it
> > was not upon the forest floor, that forest in which, exhausted from
> > wandering in exile, he had lain down and prayed to whatever deity
> > might yet give a tin penny for any prayer of his that he would never
> > again wake up.
>
> This really doesn't connect with the end of the previous chapter
> at all.
It connects about as much as the forest floor of Ithilien connected to
passing out on Mount Doom. ;-)
Frodo, you will recall, ended the previous chapter by leaving the
Shire, doomed to wander in exile. Plainly he had wandered pretty damn
far if he ended up on a forest floor. Somehow my mind made the
connection with the Ithilien scene, and so it was written, and so it
was done. How? Details, details. Fill 'em in with your imagination,
and get on with the narrative flow.
> Frodo's in the "Hotel California"? I suppose there were more
> jokes of this sort, but this was the only one I got.
There were many more, but thank you for letting me know you caught
that one. No, he's not literally in the Hotel California; I just
phrased it that way for the amusement of cultural allusion.
> You know, Sam had what might be called an Established Character
> (TM). According to our precedents, highly acute plot twists are fine.
> Character deformation to the point of unrecognizability is fine. But
> for heaven's sakes, give us *some* sort of justification for the
> change! If the Good Fairy (TM) Gates came down from Redmond and
> pointed his Magic Wand (TM) at Sam and converted him from left-wing
> politics, then at least say so -- or better yet, show it!
I did show it, though I didn't spell it out with flash cards and
Hooked on Phonics worksheets: Sam's true self all along was the
conniving capitalist, scheming and plotting to come out on top of the
heap. The implication is that he saw Socialist Revolution as a way to
attain that end, first to end the old order, then allow Utopian
Entropy to take place. Remember when Sam said he was a member of the
local Thespian's Union? A thespian is an actor. Actor. He was
acting - as the lapses in and out of various dialects throughout the
entire E-text would well support.
Anyway, if your first impression, before further reading and
reflection, is that Sam seems out of character, good. He's *supposed*
to, at least at first. That be the point. Wouldn't be a Surprise
Twist if it were neither surprising nor a twist.
> Frodo's *original* sexual orientation was heterosexual. Remember
> Cassiopeia Took? (It shouldn't be difficult; she was in the last
> chapter, after all). So if he was "restored" then he ought to be Str8.
I remember Cassiopeia Took. I remember that Frodo tried, but failed,
to score with her. I remember that he tried to use the rumors about
himself and Cassiopeia to boost the image of his manhood (or
hobbithood, as may be). I remember that when his deception was found
out, he confessed he couldn't "perform" with a lass. I remember how
he at last found his mojo with a male.
In sum, I remember that Frodo's *original* sexual orientation was
revealed to be homosexual. And I remember how subsequent authors
strove mightily to break continuity with this revelation I established
about Frodo, a revelation which had been hinted at when Frodo tried to
use the Ring to turn Sam on as they were leaving Farmer Maggot's.
Fortunately, I was able to re-establish, beyond all doubt, Frodo's
love/desire for Sam in Book IV, Chapter One, and the remainder of Book
IV, in between all the fins and feathers, seems to have chugged along
on the assumption that Frodo was gay. From the logic of the story, it
was essential to the plot. How could Sam expect to seduce Frodo and
get him into compromising positions if Frodo wouldn't be tempted by
such an offer in the first place?
That is why, when all the confusion of feathers and fish and what-not
faded away, Frodo ended up being gay. Sam and Rose's conspiracy
depended upon it, in an admittedly convoluted sort of way. But
convoluted is fun. Whee.
> That's sort of plausible, but deserves more explanation.
It's explanation enough, considering that the point is precisely for
this whole scene to be ridiculous.
> And yet
> Frodo was suffering from a number of ailments that had nothing to do
> with the Ring at all.
Quoting VI-7:
>As they walked, Radagast turned to Frodo and asked him if he
>was unwell. He was, after all, supposed to feel his old wounds around
>this time of the strory.
> "Not really," replied Frodo. "I know that I am wounded with knife, sting
>and tooth, and claws, and falls, and disillusionment, but it's not
that bad.
>Everything will heal I expect."
And so it was written, and so it was done. With textual precedent.
;-)
Deus ex machina. It works wonders.
> > And, lo! It has been six long months that you have lain
> > in slumber, regaining your health; and though to Mortal mind six
> > months may seem but half a year, in the reckoning of the Markets an
> > entire Age of the Shire has come and gone. The Old Order has been
> > overthrown, and a new Golden Age of Capitalism has begun!"
>
> And you've done precisely nothing to connect this with the
> situation O. Sharp described in his chapter.
Ummmmm.... Is your appreciation of absurdity on hiatus? The sheer
lunacy of a six-month turnaround is the point. It loses impact in the
detailed analysis and explanation.
> You *could* have sketched out a situation that made a meaningful transition
I didn't *want* a "meaningful" transition. I wanted a sudden tectonic
shift.
> but you haven't done so; you've just said "it's done".
Yep. On purpose, even.
> That's neither funny nor good writing.
In this context, I disagree. Great jolting leaps of deliberate
discontinuity, to the point of slapstick absurdity, is both funny and
good, at least if you're writing humor and not, say, a thesis paper or
a disaster recovery manual.
I also thought it was a rather amusing twist on Gandalf's speech about
the passing age and all that jazz.
> [Lots of gratuitous tildes snipped]
If all you saw in the snipped material was "gratuitous tildes," then a
lot of the humor and allusions did go over your head. (The bit about
"Chiquita Banana" - "Carmina Burana," in case you didn't get it - was,
for one example, a tie-in to both the opera and the university student
motifs in earlier chapters of the E-text.) Besides, I don't keep
track of what percentage is "tilde" or not. I just write it and
revise it till I like what I've got, and sexual humor is no better or
worse than non-sexual. It does lend itself rather easily to bad puns
and other word play, and on those two counts I will plead guilty, and
often. ;-)
> I don't particularly care about this plot point more than others
> that have been abandoned or ignored. But this seems like a
> spectacularly cavalier way to dismiss one
Bingo. "Spectacularly cavalier." Read this whole chapter in that
spirit, and you just might get it.
> as well as making nonsense of the scene in which El Rond provides Frodo
> evidence of Bilbo's fate,
Yes, yes, yes! "Making nonsense of the scene." Now you're getting
it!
> where it's rather clear that Frodo would not have obtained the evidence
> without pressing El Rond for it. So what would have been the point of
> forgery?
Whatever dark designs El Rond had are not explained in this tale, but
we deem his supposed "reluctance" was an act. The mystery of Don
Giovanni and just what El Rond was trying to hide by making Frodo
think it was Bilbo are matter for another tale. From Bilbo's allusion
(at the Havens) to El Rond's fate, we may well suspect that some
conflict existed between the two, and thus El Rond had been primarily
motivated by distracting Frodo from further inquiry about Bilbo, by
making him suppose that Bilbo had died. Or whatever. All that really
matters is that Bilbo's alive and gets to deliver his line.
> If you wanted to bring Bilbo back to life, there certainly were
> some imaginative ways you could have done it, and you could have filled
> up several amusing paragraphs with details of Bilbo's narrow escape at
> the Cracks of Doom, or at least a more detailed explanation of why his
> letter doesn't mean what it seems to mean; but this way just doesn't
> work.
I didn't *want* an amusing several-paragraph explanation. I just
wanted the impact of a total what-the-hell-is-going-on-here twist. I
happen to find ludicrous non-sequiturs amusing. Maybe I watched too
much Monty Python, or too much Sesame Street, perhaps, in my formative
years, but there it is. Quite intentional, and sorry it failed to
tickle your funny bone.
> And in the end, what does it get you? You revive Bilbo, but then
> you don't *do* anything with him, and your chapter would lose nothing
> if he were cut out.
Au contraire. Nobody but Bilbo could deliver that twist on Bilbo's
classic "we're off on another journey" line. And it was fun to just
throw him in against all expectation. I wanted Bilbo at the Havens to
deliver that line, and so it was written, and so it was done.
> > *Can it be it was all so simple, then?* thought Sam. *Or has time
> > rewritten every line?*
>
> Would that be every line of the e-text?
No, that would be "The Way We Were," originally sung by Barbra
Streisand.
> I don't think it was time doing the re-writing...
And I think you are grossly exaggerating. I mean, the whole damn
E-text is bound together by the most tenuous threads of so-called
"continuity." In that sense, my chapter has perfect continuity with
precedent. ;-)
> > Sam breathed a sigh of relief. He turned, and watched as Morrie ran
> > toward him, wearing a monocle and clad in a black leather uniform.
>
> Why?
Why not?
> Is this Morrie? Or is this Otto? Either way, this character
> doesn't seem to have much continuity with the previous chapters.
Morrie. Exiled. Looney. Thinks he's Casablanca Nazi. Chapter VI-9
Casablanca leitmotif. Obvious, I thought. Apparently not.
> I leave aside criticism of the remainder, except to say that this
> chapter fails to be a satisfactory or satisfying conclusion to the
> e-text. I realize that it's too much to expect this chapter to tie up
> all the loose ends, but I would like to have seen *some* effort to
> address some of them.
And I did address some of them, though maybe not in the way *you*
would have chosen. My chapter wrapped up the E-text just fine. I
took the "everything proves not to have been what it seemed" approach,
and found it to be quite satisfying. Sam, it proves, was just another
corporate whore saying and doing whatever it took to get to the top.
What better way to wrap it up than to have Sam go home to Rose and
have it all unveiled as a great capitalist conspiracy on their part?
And what better, more memorable, closing line for the newlywed Sam to
his partner in conspiracy than the classic closing line from "The
Honeymooners" series: "Baby, you're the greatest."
> I also realize that tastes in humor vary
As we are both intelligent people, I think this is the most reasonable
and charitable way to explain our difference of perspective.
> I thought that the humor relied far too much on low-grade smut
I included a fair amount of innuendo, but I wouldn't say the humor
*relied* on smut, low-grade or otherwise. It relied mainly on a lot
of word play and a fair amount of the above-mentioned non-sequitur
absurdity. My paragraph about the laughter of Sam ringing with
prosperity was 100% non-sexual, and, I think, one of the best
paragraphs in the whole piece.
Having a character's sexual orientation be integral to the plot and
outcome is, of course, not tantamount to "low-grade smut."
> and, I'm sorry to say, I read the chapter without cracking a smile.
Whereas I laughed the whole time I was working on it, and that was
through several drafts. As the saying goes, YMMV.
> I would recommend a wholesale re-write.
Nah. I've already put in a lot of hours working on it. If I wanted
it to be different, I would have written it that way. Sorry you
didn't appreciate the way I approached it, but the chapter stands.
Prembone
Prembone the Magnificent
> Eh... I'm sorry to say this but it's a standing complain this one I have
> about all of Prembone's chapters - they might be perfectly fine if taken
> by themselves but she really doesn't seem to care at all about continuity
> with previous chapters and writers. At *all*...
Not true; I put in a lot of work to connect with previous chapters,
but I think I've explained this point sufficiently in my replies to O.
Sharp and David Salo.
> That's a bad thing... I'd have certainly appreciated it if Prembone cared
> to keep continuity about Gulible's gender for example, early in book IV.
> Or if she were less determined to make (and then keep) Frodo gay for
> some reason...
"Keeping continuity" does not preclude adding twists of This Is Not
What It Seemed To Be. And everyone got a lot of mileage out of my
twist with Gulible; those twists are half the fun -- hell, most of the
fun.
As for Frodo, once he was established as gay, nobody was worried about
keeping continuity with that. For some reason, we could have all sort
of weirdness, even *shudder* Disney, but simply giving Frodo one
orientation rather than another freaked everyone out. Whatever.
Prembone
Prembone the Magnificent
> It's called "Dancing to One's Own Drum" or "Beating One's Own Dead
> Horse". It is not Now-Play-Nicely-With-The-Other-Children. It includes
> aspects of 'Literary Solipsism and Bullying', not to mention 'Egoism'.
Meh. Pot. Kettle. Black.
Prembone
O. Sharp
> I also think that taking a previously introduced character or element
> and twisting it to be Not What We Thought It Was counts as continuity.
and:
> I didn't *want* a "meaningful" transition. I wanted a sudden tectonic
> shift.
and:
> In this context, I disagree. Great jolting leaps of deliberate
> discontinuity, to the point of slapstick absurdity, is both funny and
> good [...]
...sooooo, with those quotes in mind, if Ojevind's final chapter starts
off with the words...
Frodo awoke suddenly, jolted to painful wakefulness by the smell
of charred forest and the gravely injured mumblings of Morrie
Brandybuck. "Ooh! What a strange dream!" he gasped, holding his
head tightly . . .
...and continues on as though your chapter were utterly irrelevant,
you _wouldn't_ feel a sense of disappointment that your words had been
cast aside, or that the hard work you had put into your chapter had been
so deliberately ignored?
Just curious.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
o...@drizzle.com Believe me, if you did feel that disappointment,
I'd know _exactly_ how you felt.
Aris Katsaris
"Prembone the Magnificent" <secula...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6e3ce81d.02083...@posting.google.com...
> "Aris Katsaris" <kats...@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:<akrcv2$ceb$1...@usenet.otenet.gr>...
>
> > Eh... I'm sorry to say this but it's a standing complain this one I have
> > about all of Prembone's chapters - they might be perfectly fine if taken
> > by themselves but she really doesn't seem to care at all about continuity
> > with previous chapters and writers. At *all*...
>
> Not true; I put in a lot of work to connect with previous chapters,
Okay, hope I don't offend you, but I think your "lot of work" is put
there to completely refute them. You don't *connect* with previous
chapters, you simply retcon them out of existence.
I think the problem may be that you envision chapters long before
you see if they are possible (or preferable) to do anything like what
you are thinking about. Before *my* chapters I'd only figured out
a couple punchlines...
"As I mentioned, I had a very rough idea of
where I wanted the story to end up even as far back as Book IV,
Chapter One."
Bad. Very bad. There were a dozens authors and more in front of
you, and they'd all had a part to play with where the story would end
up, but you make your "rough idea" supercede their contribution
In short, perhaps you *do* connect with previous chapters. But
you don't *work* with them.
> but I think I've explained this point sufficiently in my replies to O.
> Sharp and David Salo.
> > That's a bad thing... I'd have certainly appreciated it if Prembone cared
> > to keep continuity about Gulible's gender for example, early in book IV.
> > Or if she were less determined to make (and then keep) Frodo gay for
> > some reason...
>
> "Keeping continuity" does not preclude adding twists of This Is Not
> What It Seemed To Be. And everyone got a lot of mileage out of my
> twist with Gulible; those twists are half the fun -- hell, most of the
> fun.
It wasn't a "twist" - it was a complete ignoring of Gulible's gender.
Steuard (I think) then had to explain that obvious bit of discontinuity
by adding a second character.
> As for Frodo, once he was established as gay, nobody was worried about
> keeping continuity with that. For some reason, we could have all sort
> of weirdness, even *shudder* Disney, but simply giving Frodo one
> orientation rather than another freaked everyone out. Whatever.
<sigh> I think Frodo had been clearly established as confused. But in each
and every chapter you wrote you seemed to like to *pointedly* retcon his
desires towards females (including Cassiopea) out of existence.
I don't care if his "original" orientation was homosexual or hetero - I do care
that you always seemed to focus on it and insist that it was homosexual and
try to ignore every bit of previous story you didn't like. In sort you had
a boring fixation on the subject that was simply not funny....
Aris Katsaris
Öjevind Lång
>David Salo <ds...@usa.net> wrote in message news:
[snip]
Frodo's original sexual orientation was hetero. You changed it to homosexual
because you wanted to, and to prop it up you introduced the "impotent with
Cassiopeia" item. Then a solution to the contradictions was found by others:
Frodo was generally confused in sexual matters. However, you did not accept
that. Come hell or high water, you wanted to re-establish him and Sam as
homosexual lovers. And it is my belief that you did that simply to piss
people off. Why do I think that? Well, among other things because of another
item in your chapter:
"Pipsqueak watched him, and decided it was best to leave the old
soldier to his memories. He slipped off, saying nothing, but was
singing by the time he reached the first bordello on the border of the
Shire."
This completely contradicts Pipsqueak's character, as established throughout
the e-text. And as you presumably disapprove of prostitution, I can think of
only one explanation for this gratuitious change of Pipsqueak's behaviour:
You wanted to offend. Because funny it was not.
And what is funny about bringing Bilbo back to life? It simply messes up
what others have written.
Öjevind
Prembone the Magnificent
> Prembone <secula...@yahoo.com> wrote, in small part:
> > I also think that taking a previously introduced character or element
> > and twisting it to be Not What We Thought It Was counts as continuity.
>
> and:
> > I didn't *want* a "meaningful" transition. I wanted a sudden tectonic
> > shift.
>
> and:
> > In this context, I disagree. Great jolting leaps of deliberate
> > discontinuity, to the point of slapstick absurdity, is both funny and
> > good [...]
>
> ...sooooo, with those quotes in mind, if Ojevind's final chapter starts
> off with the words...
>
> Frodo awoke suddenly, jolted to painful wakefulness by the smell
> of charred forest and the gravely injured mumblings of Morrie
> Brandybuck. "Ooh! What a strange dream!" he gasped, holding his
> head tightly . . .
>
> ...and continues on as though your chapter were utterly irrelevant,
> you _wouldn't_ feel a sense of disappointment that your words had been
> cast aside, or that the hard work you had put into your chapter had been
> so deliberately ignored?
Gee, I guess I'd feel the same way I felt in the wake of presenting my
other two chapters.
But the example you posted isn't parallel, in any case. My chapter
was not intended to disparage your chapter or treat it as "utterly
irrelevant." On the contrary, the better the revolution, the better
the contrast and the stronger the absurdity of the turnaround. And it
was from reading your chapter that I got the idea of opening my
chapter with a parody of the Gandalf-in-Ithilien scene, an inspired
juxtapositioning of canon material with the situation you set up which
I thought would be appreciated.
On the other hand, for Öjevind to write the above would be done, not
out of a grand wrap-up-the-tale vision, but simply to renounce my
chapter and once again send the message that Prembone's developments
don't count. I did not do that to yours; I left it intact as part of
the history of the Shire, and, indeed, could not have written the
ending as I did had you not written what you did.
Also keep in mind that it was not easy to take where you left the
story and somehow bring it toward a recognizable parody of the
Original Text (TM). I did have to do something to make it at least
roughly parallel "The Grey Havens," and, I remind you, I *did* keep my
word not to make it an "I hate the Havens" Rescue Frodo scenario. But
I did need to bring him back to the Shire, though even with his
"healing" one can hardly say he was "rescued."
Honestly, O., I wrote my chapter expecting people would like it, as
should be evident from the rather cheerful manner in which I
introduced it. Based on precedent, I knew that some people would find
something to find fault with, especially the homophobic faction
(though I thought that enough people had incorporated same-sex
attraction into their chapters that it wouldn't be a problem to bring
that strand of the plot back full circle), but from you I expected an
appreciation of my crazy and wholly unexpected plot twist and the
chalking up EVERYTHING that happened throughout the whole adventure to
part of a Grand Master Plan on the part of Rose and Sam.
Contrary to what some people have theorized, I did NOT write this to
piss anyone off. I wrote it because I thought it would make a good
finish to the epic. No doubt readers with no emotional investment in
the E-text who stumble across it and actually make it through the
whole thing will see "Puertogriso" as just another crazy scrap of
cloth in the patchwork quilt. They may even laugh.
> Just curious.
I hope your curiosity is satisfied, and your suspicions of intentional
disparagement assuaged.
Prembone
Aris Katsaris
> "O. Sharp" <o...@drizzle.com> wrote in message news:<1030859534.891384@yasure>
>
> > Prembone <secula...@yahoo.com> wrote, in small part:
> >
> > > In this context, I disagree. Great jolting leaps of deliberate
> > > discontinuity, to the point of slapstick absurdity, is both funny and
> > > good [...]
> >
> > ...sooooo, with those quotes in mind, if Ojevind's final chapter starts
> > off with the words...
> >
> > Frodo awoke suddenly, jolted to painful wakefulness by the smell
> > of charred forest and the gravely injured mumblings of Morrie
> > Brandybuck. "Ooh! What a strange dream!" he gasped, holding his
> > head tightly . . .
> >
> > ...and continues on as though your chapter were utterly irrelevant,
> > you _wouldn't_ feel a sense of disappointment that your words had been
> > cast aside, or that the hard work you had put into your chapter had been
> > so deliberately ignored?
>
> Gee, I guess I'd feel the same way I felt in the wake of presenting my
> other two chapters.
You mean that people simply ignored the fact that you presented a female
Gulible? Or the homosexual relationships you created? Prembone, we all
used those and tried to correct the seeming inconsistencies. Didn't you
yourself claim that we got "mileage" out of your Gullible contribution? How
can we have *both* done that and ignored it?
There was only one chapter that was retconned out of existence and it wasn't
one of yours - and it was so retconned because IIRC it had several major
characters seemingly gang-rape Gulible, making all those unusable if it *hadn't*
all been a dream.
Aris Katsaris
Flame of the West
> > > I didn't *want* a "meaningful" transition. I wanted a sudden tectonic
> > > shift.
<snip>
> > > In this context, I disagree. Great jolting leaps of deliberate
> > > discontinuity, to the point of slapstick absurdity, is both funny and
> > > good [...]
<snip>
> but from you I expected an
> appreciation of my crazy and wholly unexpected plot twist
<snip>
Prem, this is disingenuous of you. You make it sound as if your
goal was a jolting plot twist, but you've admitted that's not true.
You dreamt up the ending you wanted long ago, and you
employed a plot twist because others had taken the story in a
different direction than what you'd wanted. If the story had
gone as you'd have wanted, you would not have jolted the
plot; you'd have gone for continuity. This amounts to dismissing
the last several chapters and the last several writers. It
doesn't matter what they wrote; the result was always going to
be the same, always going to be what YOU wanted. It's an
abuse of your position as one of the last writers. It's a shame
and it shows the limits of a cooperative venture.
--
-- FotW, official decider of what's fair and what's not
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
Steuard Jensen
<KNEc9.27342$t4.2...@nntpserver.swip.net>:
> "Prembone the Magnificent" wrote a lot of things:
> >David Salo <ds...@usa.net> wrote in message news:
> > > Remember Cassiopeia Took?
> > I remember Cassiopeia Took. I remember that Frodo tried, but failed,
> > to score with her.
...
> > In sum, I remember that Frodo's *original* sexual orientation was
> > revealed to be homosexual. And I remember how subsequent authors
> > strove mightily to break continuity with this revelation I
> > established about Frodo...
> Frodo's original sexual orientation was hetero.
I'm playing a rather unwanted role as apologist here (I _prefer_ to
argue my own positions, but my own isn't entirely complete), but I
thought I should trace a little "E-textual history" on this point. :)
Frodo's "original" sexuality wasn't particularly clear at all. The
first reference to it was in I.1, when Frodo received the Ring and
began "trying hard not to think about the Ring and young Cassiopiea
Took." The next came at the start of I.2: "Frodo, however, remained
wed to celibacy." This could very easily be taken as a statement that
Frodo hadn't ever actually _succeeded_ in his hopes with Cassiopiea
(or anyone else).
The next references was the Elves' comment in I.3: "Your adventures
with that young Cassiopiea Took were quite amusing". They clearly
watched Frodo, but such an encounter could be "quite amusing" in any
number of ways. The next reference was in I.4, when Frodo uses the
Ring on Sam while traveling with Maggot; Sam says, "It not funny
trying to get me all hot and bothered just so's you can laugh at me,
and that's a fact!" and Frodo responds, "Oh, Sam, I'm only having you
on." It's not clear what to make of this: Frodo claims it was just a
joke, but Sam's comments almost make it sound like this has happened
before.
I will readily admit that I thought of Frodo as heterosexual in I.3,
and that I had "successful" adventures with Cassiopiea in mind.
However, I must also admit that I'd forgotten Ojevind's "wed to
celibacy" line at the time (though perhaps he only meant it as a
public perception of Frodo's life). At any rate, in I.8 Prembone came
up with a simple explanation for that apparent contradiction, one
which fit nicely with Frodo's Sam-seduction "joke" in I.4: those jokes
expressed a deeper desire that Frodo hadn't been willing to
acknowledge before. The "validity" of Prembone's solution to the
contradiction shouldn't be called into question just because it was
close to her earlier non-E-text humor. And was it funny? That's
_always_ in the eye of the reader, as has been obvious from the mixed
reaction to probably 90% of E-text chapters.
> You changed it to homosexual because you wanted to, and to prop it
> up you introduced the "impotent with Cassiopeia" item.
Just to emphasize, I don't think that "because you wanted to" implies
"so it's wrong". (And much of the justification for the "impotent
with Cassiopeia" item came from your own chapter, remember.)
> Come hell or high water, you wanted to re-establish him and Sam as
> homosexual lovers. And it is my belief that you did that simply to
> piss people off.
Hmm. On the other hand, _if_ Frodo's homosexuality in I.8 was a
"valid" plot element (as I've argued above), then it would be
exceedingly frustrating for its author to see it repeatedly "revised"
for no apparent reason (I've had that same experience with elements
from some of my chapters). I tried to explain away those frequent
revisions in my IV.4, but removal of the Ring's influence could easily
bring Frodo back to his natural state. What was that natural state?
See above.
Now, I've got to admit that I wasn't ever all that fond of the "gay
lovers" take on Frodo and Sam in the E-text: the basic idea is an
element of the books that is _ripe_ for parody, but for some reason
(maybe the arguments in the newsgroups) I always felt like the
homosexual bits had a bit more of a "real world politics" air to them
than I liked. Also, the heavy emphasis on sex early in the E-text got
old for me pretty quickly, and I think battles over Frodo's sexuality
led to much of that emphasis. Nevertheless, I think it was justified
within the story, and the efforts to change the situation may have
done more harm than good.
> "Pipsqueak watched him, and decided it was best to leave the old
> soldier to his memories. He slipped off, saying nothing, but was
> singing by the time he reached the first bordello on the border of
> the Shire."
> This completely contradicts Pipsqueak's character, as established
> throughout the e-text.
It does? You're probably right, as I've lost track of Pipsqueak a
little (he wasn't in my last chapter at all), but I can't recall why.
Could you clarify what you're thinking of here?
Steuard Jensen
Steuard Jensen
<3D7441E9...@nospam.solinas.org>:
> Prembone the Magnificent wrote:
> > but from you I expected an appreciation of my crazy and wholly
> > unexpected plot twist
> You make it sound as if your goal was a jolting plot twist, but
> you've admitted that's not true. You dreamt up the ending you
> wanted long ago, and you employed a plot twist because others had
> taken the story in a different direction than what you'd wanted. If
> the story had gone as you'd have wanted, you would not have jolted
> the plot; you'd have gone for continuity.
Er? Prembone said,
"What I wrote was exactly what I wanted to do, assuming the
Revolution took place, as much to satirize utopianism as to create
a what-the-HELL non-sequitur effect."
Note the phrase "assuming the Revolution took place". As far as I can
tell, she had this particular jolting plot twist in mind from the
start. She even said from the start that O. had "played into her
hands," hardly the words of someone who was frustrated with the
direction the story had taken.
You're certainly welcome to say "I don't like this jolting plot twist"
(something that I recall myself saying rather often in Book IV), or
even "such a jolting plot twist is unfair to previous contributors",
but I don't think it's justified to say, "this plot twist was purely a
device to throw away previous chapters."
To be honest, I don't see what makes Prembone's jump that much "worse"
than Frodo and Boromir's repeated deaths and resurrections in Book IV.
I felt that got _really_ frustrating, but I eventually recognized that
some people thoroughly enjoyed wild chaos of that sort; why should I
impose my own notions of good humor on everyone?
Steuard Jensen
Aris Katsaris
"Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:%C4d9.164$a5.3...@news.uchicago.edu...
>
> To be honest, I don't see what makes Prembone's jump that much "worse"
> than Frodo and Boromir's repeated deaths and resurrections in Book IV.
As a sidenote, I remind people that I had whined about Frodo's death also,
so I'm at least consistent... :-)
Aris Katsaris
Raven
news:df4d9.162$a5.3...@news.uchicago.edu...
> > "Pipsqueak watched him, and decided it was best to leave the old
> > soldier to his memories. He slipped off, saying nothing, but was
> > singing by the time he reached the first bordello on the border of
> > the Shire."
> > This completely contradicts Pipsqueak's character, as established
> > throughout the e-text.
> It does? You're probably right, as I've lost track of Pipsqueak a
> little (he wasn't in my last chapter at all), but I can't recall why.
> Could you clarify what you're thinking of here?
To my eyes Pipsqueak comes off early in the etext as shady, perhaps, but
not downright nasty like Morrie, and he is stupid. In my own latest chapter
I had him grow, somewhat in wits and moreso in moral stature (which I must
admit that I'm more proud of than skewering Frodo - since chapters have
since been revised by the author because readers protested, I should have
done that myself with VI, 2, which would have been easy). In O. Sharp's
last chapter Pipsqueak kept up that moral stature, as one who opposed the
evil designs of Morrie and Frodo. Was there a bit of Edmund from The Lion,
The Witch And The Wardrobe in him there?
Of course it may be regarded as perfectly moral to visit a bordello, if
the whores are there truly of their own free wills (I don't think it would
work for me, though. :-) ). In Prembone's chapter Pipsqueak is still unwed.
But if the idea is that going to bordellos is immoral, and Pipsqueak is
behaving like a self-indulging pig, then that is inconsistent with his
character. Though if you take the sentence out of that context it is well
within the character of the *etext*. Remember that the etext began as a
parody. There is no reason to treat it as Literature now. :-)
Jon L. Beck.
Flame of the West
> To be honest, I don't see what makes Prembone's jump that much "worse"
> than Frodo and Boromir's repeated deaths and resurrections in Book IV.
It isn't the jump itself but the motivation behind it. Suppose you were
writing a chapter and I was writing the following chapter, and I said to
you: "See here, you'd better make things go the way I want, or I'll
wipe out your work by making your entire chapter a dream that the
characters wake up from in my chapter! Ha-ha!" This would certainly
violate the spirit if not the letter of a cooperative venture since I
would be denying you meaningful input into the story. Prembone
admits she had her ending in mind as early as Book IV. She expressed
consternation that it would be hard to bring it about given what had
been written. She then settled on a quantum plot jump. In doing so,
she denied everyone else meaningful input about the outcome of the
story.
Keep in mind that I am not expressing disapproval of the outcome
of the story so much as calling Prembone to account for pretending
that the quantum jump was made for its own sake. It was rather a
device for her to impose her desired ending.
Steuard Jensen
<3D751E78...@nospam.solinas.org>:
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
> > To be honest, I don't see what makes Prembone's jump that much
> > "worse" than Frodo and Boromir's repeated deaths and resurrections
> > in Book IV.
> It isn't the jump itself but the motivation behind it.
[snip]
> Prembone admits she had her ending in mind as early as Book IV. She
> expressed consternation that it would be hard to bring it about
> given what had been written. She then settled on a quantum plot
> jump.
But that's exactly what I was arguing _against_ in my previous post.
I began that post by providing two quotes in which Prembone pretty
clearly stated that the quantum plot jump had been part of her plan
from the start. You've snipped them above, so I'll quote the crucial
one again; I'm eager to understand if there's another way to interpret
it:
"What I wrote was exactly what I wanted to do, assuming the
Revolution took place, as much to satirize utopianism as to create
a what-the-HELL non-sequitur effect."
The only way I can think of to understand this is that, from the
start,
1. Prembone expected a socialist revolution to take place in VI.8, and
2. Her plan was to have that revolution collapse in some way, at least
in part to satirize the utopianism behind the revolution.
I guess you could be claiming that she wasn't being entirely honest
with the above quote... is that it? I've got to admit that I don't
see any particular reason to think that, though.
Steuard Jensen
Lisa Virmigle
well-writen, and a good cap on long and varied work.
I'm amazed you've all finished the e-text without throttling each other:
I've never seen a round robin project survive (and thrive!) so long.
I discovered the e-text *before* I read the discussions around round robin
authorship and continuity -- from reading the e-text itself I though you'd
deliberately thrown continuity to the wind, and was astonished at your
heroic measures to ensure it in ng discussions. I think parts of the
e-text's purpose _is_ to point out the sore spots in fandom, and to laugh at
them (as we do on these newsgroups) instead of getting fussy about them.
(The gift of humor makes these ng's unique -- other Tolkien-centered places
have yet to learn it and are still soberly arguing about the same old
issues, with no sense of absurdity or levity. I'll take Pink Fuzzy Balrog
Slippers any day over yet another argument over B***** W****!)
I'm glad Prembone is back, one of the other things I enjoy about these ng's
are their toleration of the human diversity among Tolkien's 'deplorable
cultus' and the acceptance of minority opinions.
I wish I could be true to these ng's discourse and make my points via humor,
but I'm still too much of a newbie to have picked up the nack.
Yours,
LV
Count Tildanor the Balrog
> not downright nasty like Morrie, and he is stupid. In my own latest chapter
> I had him grow, somewhat in wits and moreso in moral stature (which I must
> admit that I'm more proud of than skewering Frodo - since chapters have
> since been revised by the author because readers protested, I should have
> done that myself with VI, 2, which would have been easy). In O. Sharp's
There maz be a cahnce to do that later, if (as soem have suggested) we
edit the thing after we finish it. I guess that can waut till the
e-t. really is completed ...
David Salo
<Lisa.V...@libraries.claremont.edu> wrote:
> I liked Prembone's chapter, I though it was very straightforward,
> well-writen, and a good cap on long and varied work.
>
> I'm amazed you've all finished the e-text without throttling each other:
> I've never seen a round robin project survive (and thrive!) so long.
>
> I discovered the e-text *before* I read the discussions around round robin
> authorship and continuity -- from reading the e-text itself I though you'd
> deliberately thrown continuity to the wind, and was astonished at your
> heroic measures to ensure it in ng discussions.
Yes, the e-text is a crazy-quilt, patchwork thing, throwing out
bits in odd directions and balanced on itself in seemingly impossible
ways. And yet, up to now (with one notable exception), it has
preserved a certain sense of unity.
Imagine the e-text as a tower: built, as it were, on a narrow
foundation, with turrets becoming lopsided towers, staircases ascending
into nothingness, occasionally proceeding at right angles to itself. A
mess, indeed, but there is something amusing about the sight of the
cockeyed extravaganza. However, there is one thing conventional about
it; it forms a single object.
Now, imagine it built with only a last turret remaining: and
Prembone comes out, with great fanfare, proclaiming that she is going
to put the last pinnacle in place.
And when the horns have stopped tooting and the cymbals clanging,
we look, and what has she done? Why, she's built an odd-shaped (though
thoroughly inhabitable) cottage, on a hill about fifteen miles away
from the tower. And then she turns around and says "applaud my
handiwork! See how I have completed the tower!"
And other people look and say "that's not part of the tower." And
she says "Yes it is!" And they say "but there's not one stone of your
construction that's laid upon another stone in the existing
construction!" And she says "Doesn't matter! Do I have to spell
everything out for you? Can't you just *imagine* the connection
between the tower and this other edifice fifteen miles away?"
My problem is not *what* she has built, but its sheer lack of
contact with the work that has already been done. I don't think it
*can* be integrated with the existing work, simply because Prembone
never intended it to be part of the work. I think she could easily lay
out the connections which would make her chapter actually part of the
story that was written, but she just hasn't done it so far. As I said,
it would take some little rewriting.
DS
Raven
news:25c6bea2.02090...@posting.google.com...
> > not downright nasty like Morrie, and he is stupid. In my own latest
> > chapter I had him grow, somewhat in wits and moreso in moral
> > stature (which I must admit that I'm more proud of than skewering
> > Frodo - since chapters have since been revised by the author
> > because readers protested, I should have done that myself with
> > VI, 2, which would have been easy). In O. Sharp's
> There maz be a cahnce to do that later, if (as soem have suggested) we
> edit the thing after we finish it. I guess that can waut till the
> e-t. really is completed ...
But if I edit it, this will negate Banazír's revival of Frodo. At least
I would have to edit my chapter in close collusion with him; his story of
Frodo's survival would have to be rewritten, probably.
Gavran.
Steuard Jensen
article <C%Nd9.90$y_6....@news.get2net.dk>:
> "Count Tildanor the Balrog" <conteop...@gmx.net> skrev:
> > There maz be a cahnce to do that later, if (as soem have
> > suggested) we edit the thing after we finish it. I guess that can
> > waut till the e-t. really is completed ...
> But if I edit it, this will negate Banazír's revival of Frodo.
> At least I would have to edit my chapter in close collusion with
> him; his story of Frodo's survival would have to be rewritten,
> probably.
I've pondered how we could edit the E-text in a reasonable way, but
I've had very little success in coming up with anything. :) The
problem is that changing the "state of the story" at the end of one
chapter would, in general, require revision of _all_ later chapters.
In practice, things would never be so extreme, but it would be very
easy for a change to one chapter to take away the "set-up" for
something a later author really enjoyed. I figure you'd need to get
"permission" for a change from every following author, just to be safe
(sometimes, only the author knows what subtle back references were
slipped into a chapter). Given that quite a few authors aren't really
active here anymore, that makes it all but impossible to be "fair" in
that way.
To consider removing Frodo's death in particular, it seems like that
would change rather a lot of things later on. If he didn't die, then
what is Boromir's role? It wouldn't be reasonable to excise him from
Book IV altogether, so he'd still need to be introduced and added to
the group... but then he'd need to run off for some reason at the
point where Frodo returned in the first E-text version. Why would he
do that? And what would happen to him later? I think it would be far
more of a pain than writing the thing for the _first_ time. :)
So, should the E-text be edited after the fact? I'm tempted to say
no. Maybe some small changes here and there, to fix things that were
_never_ made consistent with the rest of the text or incorporated into
what followed, but on the whole, I don't think it would be worth the
enormous effort involved, and it might easily end up detracting from
the text rather than improving it.
Steuard Jensen
stealth...@-remove-yahoo.com
For those of you who have read the letters' sections dealing with the
creation of LOTR, this generative process bears a remarkable
resemblance to that of JRRT. As the book evolved, he had considerable
chores to bring the book into joint with the newer portions.
I propose that we have Tom Bombadil emerge as the true hero at the
end. Borges would approve and I find something suspicious in the way
Tolkien seemed to have little idea what Tom was doing in the book
anyway.
Flame of the West
> I've pondered how we could edit the E-text in a reasonable way, but
> I've had very little success in coming up with anything. :) The
> problem is that changing the "state of the story" at the end of one
> chapter would, in general, require revision of _all_ later chapters.
> In practice, things would never be so extreme, but it would be very
> easy for a change to one chapter to take away the "set-up" for
> something a later author really enjoyed. I figure you'd need to get
> "permission" for a change from every following author, just to be safe
> (sometimes, only the author knows what subtle back references were
> slipped into a chapter). Given that quite a few authors aren't really
> active here anymore, that makes it all but impossible to be "fair" in
> that way.
Come on, Steuard! Use that physics-trained brain of yours!!
You can easily take care of any inconsistencies by specifying
that each chapter takes place in a distinct quantum event line!
Just write a quantum-theoretic prologue and you're all set!
Count Menelvagor
sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote in message news:<_NOd9.275$a5.4...@news.uchicago.edu>...
> Quoth "Raven" <jonlennar...@damn.get2net.that.dk.spam> in
> article <C%Nd9.90$y_6....@news.get2net.dk>:
> > "Count Tildanor the Balrog" <conteop...@gmx.net> skrev:
> > > There maz be a cahnce to do that later, if (as soem have
> > > suggested) we edit the thing after we finish it. I guess that can
> > > waut till the e-t. really is completed ...
>
> > But if I edit it, this will negate Banazír's revival of Frodo.
> > At least I would have to edit my chapter in close collusion with
> > him; his story of Frodo's survival would have to be rewritten,
> > probably.
>
Well, his reviaval of Frodo contradicts your cahpter nazwaz, since in
yours Boromir(tm) has the Ring, and in Zir's Frodo does. Not that
it's necessarily a big deal ...
> I've pondered how we could edit the E-text in a reasonable way, but
> I've had very little success in coming up with anything. :) The
> So, should the E-text be edited after the fact? I'm tempted to say
> no. Maybe some small changes here and there, to fix things that were
> _never_ made consistent with the rest of the text or incorporated into
> what followed, but on the whole, I don't think it would be worth the
> enormous effort involved, and it might easily end up detracting from
> the text rather than improving it.
I would like at least to fix small inconsistencies at some point (for
example, I've messed up a couple fo names of IV.12). As for more
serious editing, I suppose we can waut till later to worry abount it
... :-)