Noldorin Houses eg Angrod's People
Ian Stopher
elves in the 1st Age. However, I would like
some opinions on what is meant by certain
statements that JRRT. I am not looking for
black and white, just some considered opinions.
OK, lets take Gelmir and Arminas who appear
in Unfinished Tales in both 'Of Tuor and the Coming
to Gondolin' and 'Narn i (c)hin Hurin'. In this book,
they are referred to as the people of Finarfin, in
particular Angrod's people.
What is mean't by that? Does that mean they are
decendents of Angrod (unlikely) or that they are
Noldor who either joined his House or served
under his rulership. If they merely belonged to
Angrod's rule, then presumably they were born
to another House (other than Finarfin/Finwe's).
After all, 28 Noldor started the Great Journey
(ok you can dispute this) and presumably 26 of
them formed other houses of lesser importance
compared to Finwe (Tata).
However, though I cannot place it, in other place,
JRRT when referring to people I think he means
some definite kinship eg. the idea that Glorfindel
must have been born to the House of Finarfin due
to his golden hair (something that I do not agree with).
I am sure Glorfindel is referred to as one of
Finarfin's people but in the context of kinship.
Anyway, opinions welcome.
ims
Neil Anderson
Ian Stopher wrote:
> I am developing something of the genealogy of
> elves in the 1st Age. However, I would like
> some opinions on what is meant by certain
> statements that JRRT. I am not looking for
> black and white, just some considered opinions.
>
> OK, lets take Gelmir and Arminas who appear
> in Unfinished Tales in both 'Of Tuor and the Coming
> to Gondolin' and 'Narn i (c)hin Hurin'. In this book,
> they are referred to as the people of Finarfin, in
> particular Angrod's people.
>
> What is mean't by that? Does that mean they are
> decendents of Angrod (unlikely) or that they are
> Noldor who either joined his House or served
> under his rulership. If they merely belonged to
> Angrod's rule, then presumably they were born
> to another House (other than Finarfin/Finwe's).
> After all, 28 Noldor started the Great Journey
> (ok you can dispute this) and presumably 26 of
> them formed other houses of lesser importance
> compared to Finwe (Tata).
> <snip>
As a rule of thumb, I take 'X of the people of Y ' to refer to a
follower of Y, and 'A of the House of B' to mean that A is a descendant
of B. I seem to remember that this presents a problem at some point - I
think that Gildor is described as Gildor Inglorion of the Houes of
Finrod: clearly impossible because Finrod never wed. I rationalize this
away by either a) the House of Finrod is synonymous with the House fo
Finarfin, so Gildor could be descended from one of Finrod's brothers, or
b) Gildor was one of the lords of Finrod's house ie a high ranking
follower of Finrod, but not the member of a separate 'People'.
There probably were many noble houses of Eldar in the First Age, with
their allegiance split between Fingolfin and his sons, the Sons of
Fenaor and Finrod. I drew up a list somewhere that I must look out some
time, with a few suggestions for names.
Neil Anderson
The Nutmeg of Consol(id)ation
Aris Katsaris
Neil Anderson wrote in message <36AE1EF2...@hartford.bm>...
>
>As a rule of thumb, I take 'X of the people of Y ' to refer to a
>follower of Y, and 'A of the House of B' to mean that A is a descendant
>of B. I seem to remember that this presents a problem at some point - I
>think that Gildor is described as Gildor Inglorion of the Houes of
>Finrod: clearly impossible because Finrod never wed.
I think that when Tolkien first wrote of Gildor Inglorion, Finrod's name was
Inglor, and Finarfin's name was Finrod. So it may well be that he meant
Gildor to be the son of Inglor (Finrod) of the House of Finrod (Finarfin).
However since Tolkien changed the name Inglor, yet not the name Gildor
Inglorion, we may assume that he rejected that idea, and that Gildor
Inglorion was simply one of the followers of the house of Finrod.
IMHO, that is. Any comments?
Aris Katsaris
Finrod
in one fell sweep:
>[...] and presumably 26 of
>them formed other houses of lesser importance
>compared to Finwe (Tata).
Sorry for taking this out of context, but what do you mean by
"(Tata)"?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Autumn is their season, Jasin
fallen as they are upon er-...@zg.tel.hr
the Autumn of their days.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Martinez
>What is mean't by that? Does that mean they are
>decendents of Angrod (unlikely) or that they are
>Noldor who either joined his House or served
>under his rulership. If they merely belonged to
>Angrod's rule, then presumably they were born
>to another House (other than Finarfin/Finwe's).
Arminas and Gelmir were not descendants of Finwe.
>After all, 28 Noldor started the Great Journey
>(ok you can dispute this) and presumably 26 of
>them formed other houses of lesser importance
>compared to Finwe (Tata).
What do you mean, "28 Noldor started the Great Journey"?
>However, though I cannot place it, in other place,
>JRRT when referring to people I think he means
>some definite kinship eg. the idea that Glorfindel
>must have been born to the House of Finarfin due
>to his golden hair (something that I do not agree with).
>I am sure Glorfindel is referred to as one of
>Finarfin's people but in the context of kinship.
Glorfindel is not regarded as a descendant of Finwe. He may be a relative
through marriage or something.
--
\\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web in...@xenite.org
\\// RealName: Science Fiction and Fantasy Xenite.Org
//\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm]
// \\ENITE.org...............................................
Michael Martinez
>However since Tolkien changed the name Inglor, yet not the name Gildor
>Inglorion, we may assume that he rejected that idea, and that Gildor
>Inglorion was simply one of the followers of the house of Finrod.
>
>IMHO, that is. Any comments?
I think it would be easier to prove that Tom Bombadil is a Maia than to
resolve the mysteries surrounding Gildor Inglorion.
tho...@hotmail.com
we see that "Tata" was used as a term like "Papa" by the elves. Another
endearing term for father is "Atto"
--Vinyelda
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nai Tennoio i Lambi Eldaron Siluvar
ve Miiri ara i Lambi Ataniva
In article <36ae3df2...@news.tel.hr>,
er-...@zg.tel.hr (Finrod) wrote:
> In rec.arts.books.tolkien, where the willows weep, Ian Stopher penned
> in one fell sweep:
>
> >[...] and presumably 26 of
> >them formed other houses of lesser importance
> >compared to Finwe (Tata).
>
> Sorry for taking this out of context, but what do you mean by
> "(Tata)"?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Autumn is their season, Jasin
> fallen as they are upon er-...@zg.tel.hr
> the Autumn of their days.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Ian Stopher
Finrod wrote in message <36ae3df2...@news.tel.hr>...
>In rec.arts.books.tolkien, where the willows weep, Ian Stopher penned
>in one fell sweep:
>
>>[...] and presumably 26 of
>>them formed other houses of lesser importance
>>compared to Finwe (Tata).
>
>Sorry for taking this out of context, but what do you mean by
>"(Tata)"?
In a tale (I think from HoME XI) of the legend of the awakening of
the elves at/near Cuivieenen. The first three elf-men to awaken
had first the names (Min?), Tata and Enel - First, Second and Third.
Finwe we can safely identify with Tata. I think that is how it
was written, couldn't swear though.
Ian
Ian Stopher
Michael Martinez wrote in message <78lmej$111$4...@camel21.mindspring.com>...
>In article <78l47j$otl$1...@starburst.uk.insnet.net>, "Ian Stopher"
<ian.s...@dai.co.uk> wrote:
>>What is mean't by that? Does that mean they are
>>decendents of Angrod (unlikely) or that they are
>>Noldor who either joined his House or served
>>under his rulership. If they merely belonged to
>>Angrod's rule, then presumably they were born
>>to another House (other than Finarfin/Finwe's).
>
>Arminas and Gelmir were not descendants of Finwe.
>
>>After all, 28 Noldor started the Great Journey
>>them formed other houses of lesser importance
>>compared to Finwe (Tata).
>
>
Well, the dates for the awakening of the elves, the
leaving of the Ambassadors for Aman and the start of
the Great Journey west can be quite variable. I'm pretty
sure there were different chronologies. However, last I
looked at them, it did seem implausible that enough Valian
years would have passed to suggest that the elves that
awoke would have started producing new elves. Hence
the numbers who started the journey were all those
first elves who awoke - because no children had yet
been born. 28 of the 56 Noldor started the journey to
Beleriand. Based on WJ.
Feel free to correct any 'too-literal' interpretations, I
don't mean to try and stitch together tales which were
written at varying times of JRRT's life (when such an
interpretation is not warranted).
Ian
Michael Martinez
>Finrod wrote in message <36ae3df2...@news.tel.hr>...
>>"(Tata)"?
>
>
>In a tale (I think from HoME XI) of the legend of the awakening of
>the elves at/near Cuivieenen. The first three elf-men to awaken
>had first the names (Min?), Tata and Enel - First, Second and Third.
>Finwe we can safely identify with Tata. I think that is how it
>was written, couldn't swear though.
Finwe cannot be safely identified with Tata. There is absolutely no
connection in the story of the First Elves between Finwe and Tata, and (in
fact), Tata's mate awoke beside him. That puts Finwe in a very awkward
position later on in Valinor. The Valar only became concerned about his
remarrying after the death of Miriel, his FIRST wife, and she was born in
Valinor.
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez wrote in message <78lmej$111$4...@camel21.mindspring.com>...
>>
>>
>
>
>Well, the dates for the awakening of the elves, the
>leaving of the Ambassadors for Aman and the start of
>the Great Journey west can be quite variable. I'm pretty
>sure there were different chronologies. However, last I
>looked at them, it did seem implausible that enough Valian
>years would have passed to suggest that the elves that
>awoke would have started producing new elves. Hence
>the numbers who started the journey were all those
>first elves who awoke - because no children had yet
>been born. 28 of the 56 Noldor started the journey to
>Beleriand. Based on WJ.
The Elves awoke in Year of the Trees 1050. They did not undertake the
Great Journey until YT 1105. That's 55 Years of the Trees, roughly
equivalent to 526.9 Years of the Sun. Time enough for anywhere from 5 to
10 generations of Elves to have been born. Tolkien wrote in MORGOTH'S RING
that they were actually eager to have children in the earliest years and
produced more per generation then than in later ages.
So, far more than the original 144 Elves were alive at the time of the
Sundering.
You appear to be basing your conclusions on the following passage from THE
WAR OF THE JEWELS:
"C. The Clan-names, with notes on other names for divisions
of the Eldar.
"In Quenya form the names of the three great Clans were *Vanyar*,
*Noldor*, and *Lindar*. The oldest of these names was *Lindar*,
which certainly goes back to days before the Separation. The
other two probably arose in the same period, if somewhat later:
their original forms may tus be given in PQ as *wanja*, *ngolodo*,
and *linda*/*glinda*. (Note 13, p. 411)
"According to the legend, preserved in almost identical form
among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar, the Three Clans
were in the beginning derived from the three Elf-fathers: *Imin*,
*Tata*, and *Enel* (sc. One, Two, Three), and those whom each
chose to join his following. So they had at first simply the
names *Minyar* 'Firsts', *Tatyar* 'Seconds', and *Nelyar*
'Thirds'. These numbered, out of the original 144 Elves that
first awoke, 14, 56, and 74; and these proportions were
approximately maintained until the Separation. [11]
"It is said that of the small clan of the *Minyar* none became
Avari. The *Tatyar* were evenly divided. The *Nelyar* were
most reluctant to leave their lakeside homes; but they were
very cohesive, and very conscious of the separate unity of
their Clan (as they continued to be), so that when it became
clear that their chieftains Elwe and Olwe were resolved to
depart and would have a large following, many of those among
them who had at first joined the Avari went over to the Eldar
rather than be separated from their kin. The Noldor indeed
asserted that most of the 'Teleri' were at heart *Avaru*,
and that only the *Eglain* really regretted being left behind
in Beleriand.
"According to Noldorin historians the proportions, out of 144,
that when the March began became Avari or Eldar were
approximately so:
"Minyar 14: Avari 0 Eldar 14
Tatyar 56: Avari 28 Eldar 28
Nelyar 74: Avari 28 Eldar 46 < Amanyar Teleri 20;
Sindar and Nandor 26
"In the result the Noldor were the largest clan of Elves
in Aman; while the Elves that remained in Middle-earth
(the *Moriquendi* in the Quenya of Aman) outnumbered the
Amanyar in the proportion of 82 to 62. [12]"
(From "Quendi and Eldar" in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS)
The words "these proportions were approximately maintained until the
Separation" indicate the numbers of the Elves grew during the years.
Author's Note 13 reads:
"For the late PQ *gl-* as an initial variation of *l-* see
General Phonology. [37] Though this Clan-name was *glind-*
in Sindarin, the *g-" does not appear in Amanya Telerin,
nor in Nandorin, so that in this case it may be an addition
in Sindarin, which favoured and much increased initial
groups of this kind."
End note 11 reads:
"For the legend of *Imin*, *Tata*, and *Enel* see pp. 420 ff."
End note 12 reads:
"The story found in *Annals of Aman* of the kindreds of Morwe
and Nurwe, who refused the summons of the Valar and became
the Avari (X.81-2, 88, 168), had been abandoned."
End note 37 reads:
"'General Phonology': my father was not here referring to any
specific work."
The "legend of the awakening of the Quendi" (Cuivienyarna) is too lengthy
for me to cite here in full, but the first paragraph is:
"While their bodies were being made from the 'flesh of Arda'
the Quendi slept 'in the womb of the Earth', beneath the green
sward, and awoke when they were full-grown. But the First
Elves (also called the Unbegotten, or the Eru-begotten) did
not all wake together. Eru had so ordained that each should
lie beside his or her 'destined spouse'. But three Elves
awoke first of all, and they were elf-men, for elf-men are
more strong in body and more eager and adventurous in
strange places. These three Elf-fathers are named in the
ancient tales *Imin*, *Tata*, and *Enel*. They awoke in
that order, but with little time between each; and from
them, say the Eldar, the words for one, two, and three
were made: the oldest of all numerals*."
The footnote reads:
"The Eldarin words referred to are *Min*, *Atta* (or *Tata*),
*Nel*. The reverse is probably historical. The Three had
no names until they had developed language, and were given
(or took) name after they had devised numerals (or at least
the first twelve)."
Ian Stopher
Michael Martinez wrote in message <78nhr5$g42$6...@camel29.mindspring.com>...
>In article <78n5or$h76$1...@starburst.uk.insnet.net>, "Ian Stopher"
<ian.s...@dai.co.uk> wrote:
>>Michael Martinez wrote in message <78lmej$111$4...@camel21.mindspring.com>...
>>>
>>>What do you mean, "28 Noldor started the Great Journey"?
>>>
>>
>>
>>Well, the dates for the awakening of the elves, the
>>leaving of the Ambassadors for Aman and the start of
>>the Great Journey west can be quite variable. I'm pretty
>>sure there were different chronologies. However, last I
>>looked at them, it did seem implausible that enough Valian
>>years would have passed to suggest that the elves that
>>awoke would have started producing new elves. Hence
>>the numbers who started the journey were all those
>>first elves who awoke - because no children had yet
>>been born. 28 of the 56 Noldor started the journey to
>>Beleriand. Based on WJ.
>
>The Elves awoke in Year of the Trees 1050. They did not undertake the
>Great Journey until YT 1105. That's 55 Years of the Trees, roughly
>equivalent to 526.9 Years of the Sun. Time enough for anywhere from 5 to
>10 generations of Elves to have been born. Tolkien wrote in MORGOTH'S RING
>that they were actually eager to have children in the earliest years and
>produced more per generation then than in later ages.
>
Time to dig out Morgoth's Ring. Considering the rate at which sprogs
were created in Aman, I haled that ~500 years of the Sun might just
squeeze in an extra generation.
>So, far more than the original 144 Elves were alive at the time of the
>Sundering.
>
I will interpret it then that it is the relative proportions that were
roughly
kept the same. Hence, you might say that the Noldor outnumbered
the Vanyar on the journey by 28 to 14 ie 2:1, while not meaning there
were actually 28 Noldor and 14 Vanyar (which is a pretty small number).
I had assumed they might start giving birth on the journey, which is
why there were significant numbers by the time they ended - silly
me!
>You appear to be basing your conclusions on the following passage from THE
>WAR OF THE JEWELS:
>
Assumptions indeed! I don't claim to have at any time all the
various disparate pieces in mind. I am not trying to assert
my own opinions, but look for others such as yourself to
correct my misinformation. I will study what you wrote with
some care.
Ian
Aris Katsaris
Michael Martinez wrote in message <78nhr5$g42$6...@camel29.mindspring.com>...
>So, far more than the original 144 Elves were alive at the time of the
>Sundering.
Didn't Tolkien write at a time, that Feanor was the first born (rather than
awakened) among all elves? (Though he most probably rejected it afterwards)
Aris Katsaris
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez wrote in message <78nhr5$g42$6...@camel29.mindspring.com>...
>>The Elves awoke in Year of the Trees 1050. They did not undertake the
>>Great Journey until YT 1105. That's 55 Years of the Trees, roughly
>>equivalent to 526.9 Years of the Sun. Time enough for anywhere from 5 to
>>10 generations of Elves to have been born. Tolkien wrote in MORGOTH'S RING
>>that they were actually eager to have children in the earliest years and
>>produced more per generation then than in later ages.
>>
>
>were created in Aman, I haled that ~500 years of the Sun might just
>squeeze in an extra generation.
Tolkien doesn't give a "rate", but we can determine that at least several
generations among the Noldorin lords were born in Aman prior to Feanor's
rebellion.
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez wrote in message <78nhr5$g42$6...@camel29.mindspring.com>...
>>So, far more than the original 144 Elves were alive at the time of the
>>Sundering.
>
>awakened) among all elves? (Though he most probably rejected it afterwards)
I don't recall any such passage.
E.J. K.
>
> Michael Martinez wrote in message <78nhr5$g42$6...@camel29.mindspring.com>...
> >So, far more than the original 144 Elves were alive at the time of the
> >Sundering.
>
> awakened) among all elves? (Though he most probably rejected it afterwards)
>
You are probabaly thinking about Fëanor being called by his father
"Finwe Minya" at birth, but that means in English "Finwe Junior", even
in minya means lit. "first" in Quenya ; cf. Minyar.
Only later "Finwe Minya" became "Curu-finwë". Feanáro was his amilesse
(mother-name).
EJK
Aris Katsaris
Michael Martinez wrote in message <78np3a$o0v$7...@camel19.mindspring.com>...<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>>Michael Martinez wrote in message <78nhr5$g42$6...@camel29.mindspring.com>...
>>>So, far more than the original 144 Elves were alive at the time of the
>>>Sundering.
>>
than
>>awakened) among all elves? (Though he most probably rejected it
afterwards)
>
Found it! Morgoth's Ring, page 87. Concerning Anduin:
"Here they dwelt for a year, and here Indis wife of Finwe bore him a son,
eldest of all the second generation of the Eldar. He was first named Minyon
First-begotten, but afterwards Curufinwe or Feanor."
It's clear to me, that Tolkien once intended (whether he rejected it
afterwards or not) that Ingwe, Indis, Finwe, Elwe, Olwe, etc were all
awakened rather than born, and that the generation of Feanor was the one
that was first born.
Aris Katsaris
Aris Katsaris
E.J. K. <10606...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
>You are probabaly thinking about Fëanor being called by his father
>"Finwe Minya" at birth,
No. See above, my response to Martinez. Morgoth's ring, page 87.
Ian Stopher
Aris Katsaris wrote in message <78pbf0$1tg$1...@ns1.otenet.gr>...
>
>Michael Martinez wrote in message <78np3a$o0v$7...@camel19.mindspring.com>...
>>In article <78nl4a$e3a$1...@ns1.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris"
>>>>So, far more than the original 144 Elves were alive at the time of the
>>>>Sundering.
>>>
>than
>>>awakened) among all elves? (Though he most probably rejected it
>afterwards)
>>
>>I don't recall any such passage.
>
>
>Found it! Morgoth's Ring, page 87. Concerning Anduin:
>
>"Here they dwelt for a year, and here Indis wife of Finwe bore him a son,
>eldest of all the second generation of the Eldar. He was first named Minyon
>First-begotten, but afterwards Curufinwe or Feanor."
>
>It's clear to me, that Tolkien once intended (whether he rejected it
>afterwards or not) that Ingwe, Indis, Finwe, Elwe, Olwe, etc were all
>awakened rather than born, and that the generation of Feanor was the one
>that was first born.
Though Feanor as the first of the 2nd generation (the first-born) is
nice idea, it creates more problems. In most of the variant texts,
Feanor is born in Aman. Also if he was, it is quite likely that
Finwe and Miriel were wed soon before, because begetting soon
followed a wedding (unless there was strife). This certainly rules
out Finwe as one of those who awoke in Cuivienen with their spouse,
unless the legend is more apocryphal even than one would
imagine (like the fact that daylight is mentioned in that legend).
Ian
Michael Martinez
>Found it! Morgoth's Ring, page 87. Concerning Anduin:
>
>"Here they dwelt for a year, and here Indis wife of Finwe bore him a son,
>eldest of all the second generation of the Eldar. He was first named Minyon
>First-begotten, but afterwards Curufinwe or Feanor."
>
>It's clear to me, that Tolkien once intended (whether he rejected it
>afterwards or not) that Ingwe, Indis, Finwe, Elwe, Olwe, etc were all
>awakened rather than born, and that the generation of Feanor was the one
>that was first born.
You'd better read that again:
"3 My father added hastily here, using a ball-point pen and
so apparently much later (see p. 102, $78):
Here they dwelt for a year, and here Indis wife of Finwe
bore him a son, eldest of all the second generation of
the Eldar. He was first named Minyon First-begotten,
but afterwards Curufinwe or Feanor.
This was struck out, perhaps as soon as written; see note 5."
So, there is no authority in the passage, which greatly contradicts the
canonical story that Miriel Serinde was Finwe's first wife and the mother
of Feanor, and which Tolkien apparently immediately rejected anyway.
In THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH "The Shibboleth of Feanor" speaks of a
change in speech among the Noldor. Tolkien wrote:
"The change [sound 1] > [sound 2] must therefore have been a
conscious and deliberate change agreed to and accepted by a
majority of the Noldor, however initiated, after the separation
of their dwellings from the Vanyar. It must have occurred after
the birth of Miriel, but (probably) before the birth of Feanor.
The special connexion of these two persons with the change and
its later history needs some consideration."
(From POME p. 332)
This fact, combined with the facts of the story of the First Elves (Imin
and Iminye, Tata and Tatie, Enel and Enelye), shows clearly that Finwe was
not among the First Elves and that Feanor was not the first of the second
generation of the Eldar.
--
Aris Katsaris
Michael Martinez wrote in message <78q2c5$rav$2...@camel18.mindspring.com>...
>In article <78pbf0$1tg$1...@ns1.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris"
<kats...@otenet.gr> wrote:
>>Found it! Morgoth's Ring, page 87. Concerning Anduin:
>>
>>"Here they dwelt for a year, and here Indis wife of Finwe bore him a son,
>>eldest of all the second generation of the Eldar. He was first named
Minyon
>>First-begotten, but afterwards Curufinwe or Feanor."
>>
>>It's clear to me, that Tolkien once intended (whether he rejected it
>>afterwards or not) that Ingwe, Indis, Finwe, Elwe, Olwe, etc were all
>>awakened rather than born, and that the generation of Feanor was the one
>>that was first born.
>
>You'd better read that again:
[snip]
> This was struck out, perhaps as soon as written; see note 5."
I don't disagree that he rejected it.
>So, there is no authority in the passage, which greatly contradicts the
>canonical story that Miriel Serinde was Finwe's first wife and the mother
>of Feanor, and which Tolkien apparently immediately rejected anyway.
True, but he did write it. That was my point. And though there was as you
say 'no authority' and I would certainly not suggest it is 'canon' I was
more asking concerning its existence rather than saying we should consider
it a valid story.
>In THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH "The Shibboleth of Feanor" speaks of a
>change in speech among the Noldor. Tolkien wrote:
I've not read the book yet.
> "The change [sound 1] > [sound 2] must therefore have been a
> conscious and deliberate change agreed to and accepted by a
> majority of the Noldor, however initiated, after the separation
> of their dwellings from the Vanyar. It must have occurred after
> the birth of Miriel, but (probably) before the birth of Feanor.
> The special connexion of these two persons with the change and
> its later history needs some consideration."
> (From POME p. 332)
>
>This fact, combined with the facts of the story of the First Elves (Imin
>and Iminye, Tata and Tatie, Enel and Enelye), shows clearly that Finwe was
>not among the First Elves and that Feanor was not the first of the second
>generation of the Eldar.
I agree that this is almost certainly how he intended it in the end. But
it's just a general feeling I get that he originally intended the generation
of Finwe, etc... to be among those awakened. Mainly due to the fact that we
never hear of the parents of these people. As if they had never been born.
(True, we hear of their siblings but that could be explained in other ways)
But anyway I don't care to fight about this. I was just making an
observation.
[Irrelevant note: I had also briefly thought that Luthien had been once
called the 'eldest child' of the earth. But that was simply a case of me
misreading a part of Lay of Leithian "of Arda's eldest children born / in
beauty of their elven morn" which obviously refers to elves and not to
chronological births]
Aris Katsaris
Ian Stopher
Aris Katsaris wrote in message <78qc27$b0t$1...@ns1.otenet.gr>...
>
>
>[Irrelevant note: I had also briefly thought that Luthien had been once
>called the 'eldest child' of the earth. But that was simply a case of me
>misreading a part of Lay of Leithian "of Arda's eldest children born / in
>beauty of their elven morn" which obviously refers to elves and not to
>chronological births]
>
Somehow I had a vague feeling that Luthien was the eldest of all
children as well. Funny that.
Ian
ps. Write, Cross-out, reinvent, change. You would think that JRRT
was trying to create a convoluted mythology of overlapping
elements, like the work of hundreds of people in bygone ages
who create an actual mythology which contains many internal
inconsistencies and contradictions.
Michael Martinez
>Michael Martinez wrote in message <78q2c5$rav$2...@camel18.mindspring.com>...
>>So, there is no authority in the passage, which greatly contradicts the
>>canonical story that Miriel Serinde was Finwe's first wife and the mother
>>of Feanor, and which Tolkien apparently immediately rejected anyway.
>
>
>True, but he did write it. That was my point. And though there was as you
>say 'no authority' and I would certainly not suggest it is 'canon' I was
>more asking concerning its existence rather than saying we should consider
>it a valid story.
Oh.