Defence of Tolkien Needed
Öjevind Lång
锟絡evind
Fr锟絥: "锟絡evind L锟絥g" <ojevin...@bredband.net>
锟絤ne: Re: defence of Tolkien needed
Datum: den 15 december 2009 22:27
"calvin" <cri...@windstream.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:8029fd31-2e36-40ed...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> In the post quoted below, the charge that Tolkien 'cribbed'
> The Lord of the Rings from writings that the accuser did
> not name is something that I don't know enough to deal
> with. All I know is that Tolkien used some Eddaic names
> for Dwarf names in The Hobbit. I wonder if someone here
> could outline a proper defence for the accusation below.
Of course, Tolkien used older sources for inspiration, and he was not quite
as uninfluenced by "Das Ring der Niebelungen" as he claimed. There was more
to it than just "both rings being round". Still, by and large his work does
not lose its originality or merit because of such influences. The only part
of his writings about which I would say the charge of plagiarism is
justified is when it comes to the tale of T锟絩in. That one is in parts very
closlely calqued on the story of Kullervo in the Kalevala, especially the
unwitting incest with a sister, the sister drowning herself and the hero
then killing himself on his talking sword.
锟絡evind
calvin
> Forwarded to alt.fan.tolkien. Please follow this example.
>
>
> Från: "Öjevind Lång" <ojevind.l...@bredband.net>
> Ämne: Re: defence of Tolkien needed
> Datum: den 15 december 2009 22:27
>
>
> > In the post quoted below, the charge that Tolkien 'cribbed'
> > The Lord of the Rings from writings that the accuser did
> > not name is something that I don't know enough to deal
> > with. All I know is that Tolkien used some Eddaic names
> > for Dwarf names in The Hobbit. I wonder if someone here
> > could outline a proper defence for the accusation below.
>
> Of course, Tolkien used older sources for inspiration, and he was not quite
> as uninfluenced by "Das Ring der Niebelungen" as he claimed. There was more
> to it than just "both rings being round". Still, by and large his work does
> not lose its originality or merit because of such influences. The only part
> of his writings about which I would say the charge of plagiarism is
> closlely calqued on the story of Kullervo in the Kalevala, especially the
> unwitting incest with a sister, the sister drowning herself and the hero
> then killing himself on his talking sword.
Mr. Lång left out "the post quoted below" which
followed my words originally.
Öjevind Lång
> On Dec 15, 4:32 pm, �jevind L�ng <ojevind.l...@bredband.net> wrote:
[snip]
>> "calvin" <cri...@windstream.net> skrev i
>> meddelandetnews:8029fd31-2e36-40ed...@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > In the post quoted below, the charge that Tolkien 'cribbed'
>> > The Lord of the Rings from writings that the accuser did
>> > not name is something that I don't know enough to deal
>> > with. All I know is that Tolkien used some Eddaic names
>> > for Dwarf names in The Hobbit. I wonder if someone here
>> > could outline a proper defence for the accusation below.
>>
>> Of course, Tolkien used older sources for inspiration, and he was not
>> quite
>> as uninfluenced by "Das Ring der Niebelungen" as he claimed. There was
>> more
>> to it than just "both rings being round". Still, by and large his work
>> does
>> not lose its originality or merit because of such influences. The only
>> part
>> of his writings about which I would say the charge of plagiarism is
>> justified is when it comes to the tale of T�rin. That one is in parts
>> very
>> closlely calqued on the story of Kullervo in the Kalevala, especially the
>> unwitting incest with a sister, the sister drowning herself and the hero
>> then killing himself on his talking sword.
>
> Mr. L�ng left out "the post quoted below" which
> followed my words originally.
Yes, but the point I wanted to make is that Tolkien was indeed heavily
influenced by "The Kalevala" when he wrote the story of T�rin. That and the
influence from L. Rider Haggard are the only two obvious examples of him
lifting stoiry elements from other sources. At least that I can think of.
�jevind
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>Yes, but the point I wanted to make is that Tolkien was indeed heavily
>influenced by "The Kalevala" when he wrote the story of T�rin. That and the
>influence from L. Rider Haggard are the only two obvious examples of him
>lifting stoiry elements from other sources. At least that I can think of.
It's actually H. Rider Haggard (H. for Henry).
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
Dirk Thierbach
> Yes, but the point I wanted to make is that Tolkien was indeed heavily
> lifting stoiry elements from other sources. At least that I can think of.
Beowulf has at least two others, the Tarnhelm (with at least two
incarnations, as Dernhelm in LotR and as the mask Turin wore) as
another one, I've already mentioned the "return of the king" motif
(though this is frequent in other fairy stories), and the "Aragorn as
Strider" (king as common man) motif is in the same category. I guess
his try to improve the "coming of 'Great Birnam wood to high Dunsinane
hill" also counts. And Atlantis for Numenor, of course.
Maybe we should start a list :-)
- Dirk
Derek Broughton
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:48:13 +0100, Öjevind Lång
> <ojevin...@bredband.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Yes, but the point I wanted to make is that Tolkien was indeed heavily
>>influenced by "The Kalevala" when he wrote the story of Túrin. That and
>>the influence from L. Rider Haggard are the only two obvious examples of
>>him lifting stoiry elements from other sources. At least that I can think
>>of.
>
> It's actually H. Rider Haggard (H. for Henry).
I think someone is getting confused with L. Ron Hubbard, who while a better
fiction writer than a prophet, is still not in Haggard's class :-)
--
derek
Öjevind Lång
news:ebmji5dggkicd8tve...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:39:19 -0400, Derek Broughton <de...@pointerstop.ca>
> wrote:
[snip]
>>I think someone is getting confused with L. Ron Hubbard, who while a
>>better
>>fiction writer than a prophet, is still not in Haggard's class :-)
>
> Possibly.
>
> Elron's "Dianetics: the modern science of mental health" must be on the
> top
> ten list of most boring science fiction works ever written.
Yes, but before Hubbard went into the fake religion racket, he wrote some
quite good science fiction stories.
�jevind
Tamf Moo
>> It's actually H. Rider Haggard (H. for Henry).
>
> I think someone is getting confused with L. Ron Hubbard, who while a better
> fiction writer than a prophet, is still not in Haggard's class :-)
are these initial abbreviations anything like Asimov's R. ones?
and if so, does the L. stand for Elf?
--
tamf
I see two Gandalfs and church bell. And two half lions chasing
a bull rat each over the lake. (Rorschach tests seen by "Illogic")
Steve Hayes
>On 17/12/09 03:39, Derek Broughton wrote:
>
>>> It's actually H. Rider Haggard (H. for Henry).
>>
>> I think someone is getting confused with L. Ron Hubbard, who while a better
>> fiction writer than a prophet, is still not in Haggard's class :-)
>
>are these initial abbreviations anything like Asimov's R. ones?
>
>and if so, does the L. stand for Elf?
His name was Lafayette Ronald Hubbard.
The other guy was Henry Rider Haggard.
Derek Broughton
And I'm certain Battlefield Earth wasn't _nearly_ as bad as the film. That
made Peter Jackson look like a paragon of virtue.
--
derek
John W Kennedy
> And I'm certain Battlefield Earth wasn't _nearly_ as bad as the film.
If you subtract the ostinato hatred of scientific psychology (remember,
Scientology started out as psychological quackery, and only became a
"religion" when threatened with prosecution for practicing medicine
without a license), what's left is OK, if you don't mind that what's
left is roughly halfway between Tarzan and "Armageddon 2419 A.D.",
already over half a century out of date.
"Mission Earth" (the ten-volume thing) is actually more fun. It has the
same manias, and more, but the residual content has at least progressed
to the overall style of "Astounding". It may be funnier if you're a New
Yorker.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"