[IBC] Acer palmatum "bloodgood"
Isom, Jeff , CAP, PTL
maple at a really good price. The tree is only about 3' high and has a 1"
trunk. After reading all of Brent's articles, I'm left with the impression
that in order to end up with a good bonsai down the line, I need to plant it
in the ground (or a large container) and let it grow until the trunk caliper
is close to where I want it for the finished tree. First question, I have a
limited amount of ground space, so what is considered a "large" container?
Second, the tree is fairly small and compact right now (for a nursery tree)
and since these things are so expensive, I'd like to salvage as much as I
can before I plant it and just let it grow. It will eventually be trunk
chopped anyway, so should I air layer it this spring, while it is still
compact, or will that totally mess up my ultimate objective of thickening
the trunk? Third, since increasing the number of leaves and branches helps
to increase trunk caliper, should I clip all of the terminal buds from the
branches each winter to encourage lots of back budding? It seems that when
the strategy for increasing caliper and taper is going to be trunk chopping,
there really is no need to worry at this point about long internodes and
such - am I translating things correctly?
Thanks,
Jeff Isom
Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39
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Marty Haber
be so easy. Obviously, you have a long trunk and little or no low
branching; hence the intent to air layer. Now we must consider the time
element. Once you have air layered (assuming it is successful), it will
take several years before the new root structure will sustain the rigors of
bonsai. I'm looking at a 5 to 10 year time frame. Nevertheless, we don't
place an emphasis on time in bonsai: only on the quality of the work that
we do. I merely want to establish some guidelines to help you with your
planning.
Now if you've definitely decided to air layer, early spring is the best time
for it.
You would then have the whole growing season to establish the new roots.
Then you could plant the layer in the ground or a training box for at least
a year before planting it in a bonsai pot. I would estimate that it will
take several more years before the tree will be strong enough for heavy
pruning and wiring.
Marty
Evergreen Gardenworks
>Recently, I was visiting a local nursery and acquired a "leftover" Japanese
>maple at a really good price. The tree is only about 3' high and has a 1"
>trunk. After reading all of Brent's articles, I'm left with the impression
>that in order to end up with a good bonsai down the line, I need to plant it
>in the ground (or a large container) and let it grow until the trunk caliper
>is close to where I want it for the finished tree.
Jeff
Bloodgood is a good cultivar for bonsai because it is vigorous and responds
well to pruning. It is actually less prune to fungal diseases than the
species (Acer palmatum var. atropurpureum), at least around here. However,
the leaves are quite large and are not going to reduce all that well, so
plan on a rather large bonsai, 18 inches plus, with a tapered, rugged
trunk. Three inch caliper would be nice.
> First question, I have a
>limited amount of ground space, so what is considered a "large" container?
It doesn't start out in a large container. You will get the fastest growth
and the fewest problems if you repot stepwise. Each time it forms an intact
rootball (roots fill the pot, so you can knock the pot off and the rootball
will hold together), repot it to the next larger size pot without
significantly disturbing the rootball. Just keep moving upward for fastest
growth. To achieve a three inch trunk you will need at least a fifteen to
twenty gallon pot eventually. Use only the best soil amendments so you can
reduce the number of times that you need to completely remove the old soil.
At each repotting, comb away the soil around the base of the trunk and
inspect the nebari. You can usually get away with removing one large
problem root at each repotting. This is a very important step because it
takes just as long to form a good nebari as it does a good trunk. Those
combed fine roots in the beginning stages will become the awesome ramified
pad in later years.
>Second, the tree is fairly small and compact right now (for a nursery tree)
>and since these things are so expensive, I'd like to salvage as much as I
>can before I plant it and just let it grow. It will eventually be trunk
>chopped anyway, so should I air layer it this spring, while it is still
>compact, or will that totally mess up my ultimate objective of thickening
>the trunk?
You can have your cake and eat it too. Leave everything for this year. You
will probably want to remove all of the existing soil this winter. Nursery
mix is usually pretty awful and not meant for long term container growth.
Wash it off and repot this winter. Leave ALL of the branches and existing
buds. These buds require no food to open, just water from the roots in
spring. This will give you the fastest re establishment in its new pot.
Come late April, you can decide on what if anything to remove. You will get
the fastest growth for trunk development if you forego pruning altogether,
but if you have a really nice section you want to layer off, take it. In
general, I recommend that you allow for maximum growth and minimal pruning
to achieve the fastest caliper increase. At some point you will want to
chop it to get taper and movement. The time to do this is when the trunk
reaches about 2/3 the desired caliper. There is no hard and fast rule, here
are the parameters: If you chop sooner, the second trunk section will have
longer to grow and catch up with the base section and thus there will be
less taper between these two. Also, trunk movement tends to be smoothed out
over time and with caliper increase, so the bends will not be as dramatic
with early chopping.
Allowing more time before the first chop will give you greater taper, but
will take longer to develop the bonsai, since it will take even more time
to grow the second section to a point where there is smooth taper
transition between the two, and to heal a more massive scar. This argument
also follows for all the subsequent chops and trunk sections (usually three
sections is enough for main trunk, the apex is a rapid series of smaller
chops).
The year or two before you make the FIRST chop is the time to take your
layers. This is wood that will be removed anyway, so you may as well save
as much of it as you can. You can do multiple layers of the trunk and the
branches, as long as you leave some branches with good foliage between the
layers. The layers can be removed in the fall after leaf drop, and the
trunk can be chopped and repotted or simply chopped in the winter. If it is
due for repotting, do it at the same time. If it is possible to leave some
small low branches with terminal buds, do so, it will insure that the trunk
will put out quick growth in the spring.
Since this is most likely a grafted maple, make absolutely sure you know
where the graft is, so you can make all your chops above it.
> Third, since increasing the number of leaves and branches helps
>to increase trunk caliper, should I clip all of the terminal buds from the
>branches each winter to encourage lots of back budding?
No, not necessarily. Usually leaving all the buds and avoiding pruning will
give you the fastest growth and greatest trunk caliper. I only slightly
hesitate because I think there may be an alternate method that may give you
somewhat faster caliper increase. For years, I have watched my in ground
crabs, Malus, grow from bushy shrubs instead of single trunked trees, and
I am quite sure that I got larger trunks with more taper by allowing these
low branches to remain, rather than pruning to a single trunk. It makes
sense. Why not put the wood down low instead of on top of the tree where it
ends up in the burn pile after the chop? The drawback is that there will be
a larger number of low scars that will have to healed rather than just one
from the single chop. This method might be better for you with limited
space, since you might find it easier to grow a six foot spherical shrub
than a twelve foot tall tree in a container, but 'Bloodgood' is a shrubby
cultivar anyway. If you want to do this, a single heavy pruning AFTER
establishment might be in order. You are simply trying to get low breaks.
After you get these low sacrifices started, there will be no need for
further pruning except for compactness. You will still need to keep these
sacrifices subdominant to the leader of your trunk line or you will greatly
slow down the growth of the second and third sections of the trunk line.
Sacrifices high in the tree and late in the formation of the bonsai will
greatly assist in the development of the apex, since sacrifices do two
things, they increase caliper up to their point of attachment, and they
DECREASE vigor above this point.
> It seems that when
>the strategy for increasing caliper and taper is going to be trunk chopping,
>there really is no need to worry at this point about long internodes and
>such - am I translating things correctly?
Absolutely correct, you don't even have to worry about final branch
formation until you get about three to five years from final trunk line
completion. Most early branches will be cut off since they will be two
large for final branches.
Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14
mailto:bon...@pacific.net
http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com
Lynn Boyd
It occured to me as I have prepared another of your posts to save that
it is past time for you to be writing a book. Or - just collect all the
saved posts from IBCers
and it is done. :)
Lynn
-----------------------------------
Jeff
> Bloodgood is a good cultivar for bonsai because it is vigorous and
responds
> well to pruning. It is actually less prune to fungal diseases than the
> species (Acer palmatum var. atropurpureum), at least around here. However,
> the leaves are quite large and are not going to reduce all that well, so
> plan on a rather large bonsai, 18 inches plus, with a tapered, rugged
> trunk. Three inch caliper would be nice.
>
SNIPPED -
Shelly Hurd
heck, I save all his stuff anyway (I even re-read it from time to time
Brent!). But one thing here has me wondering.
>"Isom, Jeff wrote:
> SNIP
>I'm left with the impression
> that in order to end up with a good bonsai down the line, I need to plant
it
> in the ground (or a large container) and let it grow until the trunk
caliper
> is close to where I want it for the finished tree.
>MORE SNIPPING
> Jeff Isom
> Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39
Anyone besides me think that bloodgood WONT survive a Cleveland winter
without serious protection? I wonder if Jeff has any neighbors with
bloodgoods as landscape trees? It does get awfully cold in Cleveland
doesn't it?
Regards,
Shelly Hurd Central CA - Sunset Zone 8-USDA Zone 9
she...@hurdfam.com
Reiner Goebel
> Anyone besides me think that bloodgood WONT survive a Cleveland winter
> without serious protection? I wonder if Jeff has any neighbors with
> bloodgoods as landscape trees? It does get awfully cold in Cleveland
> doesn't it?
I think they should survive if planted in the ground, or grown in a
large container that is buried in the ground for the winter. Nurseries
here sell them and guarantee them, so they are hardy in Toronto. That
should be good enough for Cleveland.
Reiner Goebel
Toronto, Canada
http://www.rgbonsai.com
Chris Cochrane
We hope that you will be able to join us at our upcoming free lecture...
For further details on events and developments concerning our Institute,
please contact us at 212-854-7403 or visit our website at:
www.columbia.edu/cu/ealac/imjs
________________________________________________________________
>
> November 21st (Thursday) 5:00-7:00p.m. (403 Kent Hall)
> Lecture: Professor Marc Peter Keane, Lawrence Halprin Fellow at Cornell
> University (2002-2003) and IMJS Research Associate who is a long-term
> resident of Kyoto and a professional landscape garden architect with
> commissioned installations in Japan, will give a lecture on The Art and
> Philosophy of Setting Stones. He will also discuss his recent book on the
> subject and his book Sakuteike , which translates a classic ancient text on
> the creation of landscape gardens.
Hope friends can attend. Marc is an incredible scholar and has interest in our subject area.
Best wishes,
Chris... C. Cochrane, sas...@erols.com, Richmond VA USA
Shelly Hurd
no need to go there. ;-)
Regards,
Shelly Hurd Central CA - Sunset Zone 8-USDA Zone 9
she...@hurdfam.com
> Shelly Hurd wrote:
>
> > Anyone besides me think that bloodgood WONT survive a Cleveland winter
> > without serious protection? I wonder if Jeff has any neighbors with
> > bloodgoods as landscape trees? It does get awfully cold in Cleveland
> > doesn't it?
>
> "Reiner Goebel" replied:
Isom, Jeff , CAP, PTL
- being a newbie with no easy direct access to mentoring, this is as close
as I can get. I must say, I've learned as much from reading the archives
and from answers to questions, as with all of the books I've read - and I've
read a bunch. I have to agree with Lynn and Shelly - Brent needs to do a
book, or as he said in a previous e-mail, a CD. I have saved all of his
responses and copied all the articles from his website and made a notebook.
It's better than a lot of what I've seen at the bookstore! By the way, I
have several neighbors that have these planted up close to their houses
where they are shielded from much of the worst wind. Once I have potted
mine, which sounds a few year away :-) I'll probably garage it for the worst
part of the winter. Thanks again to everyone that responded - especially to
Brent.
Jeff Isom
Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39
-----Original Message-----
From: Reiner Goebel [mailto:rgo...@INTERLOG.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 5:36 PM
To: BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: [IBC] Acer palmatum "bloodgood"
Shelly Hurd wrote:
> Anyone besides me think that bloodgood WONT survive a Cleveland winter
> without serious protection? I wonder if Jeff has any neighbors with
> bloodgoods as landscape trees? It does get awfully cold in Cleveland
> doesn't it?
I think they should survive if planted in the ground, or grown in a
large container that is buried in the ground for the winter. Nurseries
here sell them and guarantee them, so they are hardy in Toronto. That
should be good enough for Cleveland.
Reiner Goebel
Toronto, Canada
http://www.rgbonsai.com
****************************************************************************
Isom, Jeff , CAP, PTL
boring? You just don't know what you're missing...sunny one minute, rain
the next and if you're lucky maybe some snow or sleet. And 4 real seasons.
You just can't beat the fall colors here, though. Absolutely beautful.
Jeff Isom
Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39
-----Original Message-----
From: Shelly Hurd [mailto:she...@HURDFAM.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 6:16 PM
To: BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: [IBC] Acer palmatum "bloodgood"
Thanks Reiner, I feel better. And I can find Cleveland on a map, but have
no need to go there. ;-)
Regards,
Shelly Hurd Central CA - Sunset Zone 8-USDA Zone 9
she...@hurdfam.com
> Shelly Hurd wrote:
>
> > Anyone besides me think that bloodgood WONT survive a Cleveland winter
> > without serious protection? I wonder if Jeff has any neighbors with
> > bloodgoods as landscape trees? It does get awfully cold in Cleveland
> > doesn't it?
>
> "Reiner Goebel" replied:
Alan Walker
Burn on big river, burn on....
PS: I know that's only in the past, but the memory lingers on.
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
"Isom, Jeff (CAP, PTL)" wrote:
boring? You just don't know what you're missing...sunny one minute, rain
the next and if you're lucky maybe some snow or sleet. And 4 real seasons.
Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39
********************************************************************************
Iris Cohen
Hardiness of 'Bloodgood' is not specified.
Most of the common Acer palmatum cultivars are hardy to Zone 6, which would
include Toronto and Cleveland. Even here in Zone 5, they do fine if they are in
a suitable location & are established. You should have no trouble with
'Bloodgood' in Cleveland if you bury the pot in the ground in an unexposed
location & use a rose cone. They say you should wrap the pot in an old
pantyhose to protect the pot & keep creepy-crawlers out of the soil.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much
that ain't so."
Josh Billings (Henry Wheeler Shaw), 1818-1885
Nina Shishkoff
Times article stated that Pakenham is a historian who became
interested in trees, wrote a book, and had it sell more than any of
his history books. He's not a botanist, and just seems to like BIG
trees. I think you could have been friendlier! We are a group of
people, after all, who love trees just as much as he does, only we
like SMALL trees.
gentle, soft-spoken Nina.
dalecochoy
From: "Reiner Goebel" <rgo...@INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Re: [IBC] Acer palmatum "bloodgood"
> Shelly Hurd wrote:
>
> > Anyone besides me think that bloodgood WONT survive a Cleveland winter
> > without serious protection? I wonder if Jeff has any neighbors with
> > bloodgoods as landscape trees? It does get awfully cold in Cleveland
> > doesn't it?
>
>
> I think they should survive if planted in the ground, or grown in a
> large container that is buried in the ground for the winter. Nurseries
> here sell them and guarantee them, so they are hardy in Toronto. That
> should be good enough for Cleveland.
>
> Reiner Goebel
> Toronto, Canada
> http://www.rgbonsai.com
I have them both in the ground and bonsai pots/soil in the Akron/Canton
area..
Regards,
Dale Cochoy, Wild Things Bonsai Studio, Hartville, Ohio
DaleC...@Prodigy.Net http://www.WildThingsBonsai.Com
Specializing in power wood carving tools.
Yakimono no Kokoro bonsai pottery of hand-built stoneware
Richard Zieminski
with the letter. Care instructions included at no extra charge :-)
Richard Zieminski
Summerville, SC
Craig Cowing
> is a little gentler than that of you letter writers. The New York
> Times article stated that Pakenham is a historian who became
> interested in trees, wrote a book, and had it sell more than any of
> his history books. He's not a botanist, and just seems to like BIG
> trees. I think you could have been friendlier! We are a group of
> people, after all, who love trees just as much as he does, only we
> like SMALL trees.
>
> gentle, soft-spoken Nina.
>
Nina:
Being a sort of historian myself, I feel a historian should have a broader
perspective than most, taking into account various viewpoints and putting them into
perspective. This involves the gathering of information. Pakenham's comment in
the interview is not based on information, but on a lack thereof.
As for loving trees, I love them both big and small. I don't see why it should be
one or the other.
I'm plenty gentle on people with whom I disagree as long as they have based their
opinions and judgements on fact. Pakenham's comparison of putting a tree in a pot
to the binding of Chinese women's feet is an ignorant statement, with the
assumption that the tree feels pain. He should at least know that trees don't feel
pain the way we do. I'm about as far from a botanist as anyone on the list, and
even I know that.
Craig Cowing
Blooming Grove NY
Zone 5b+
Elizabeth
> is a little gentler than that of you letter writers. The New York
> Times article stated that Pakenham is a historian who became
> interested in trees, wrote a book, and had it sell more than any of
> his history books. He's not a botanist, and just seems to like BIG
> trees. I think you could have been friendlier! We are a group of
> people, after all, who love trees just as much as he does, only we
> like SMALL trees.
I, as well, was wondering about what people thought that the word "outreach"
meant. In addition, I thought that maybe we "repealed" the right to freedom
of speech, while I was not looking :-). Apparently some of us find it easier
to appropriate that right for ourselves, than grant it to others.
Who was it that said "I do not agree with anything you say, but I will die
for your right to say it" ????
Best regards,
Liz
Georgia, Zone 7 1/2
David J. Bockman
"outreach"
meant. In addition, I thought that maybe we "repealed" the right to freedom
of speech, while I was not looking :-). Apparently some of us find it easier
to appropriate that right for ourselves, than grant it to others.<<
The Constitionally noted rights of free speech clearly are protected only
against government infringement. This has nothing to do with the First
Amendment.
David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email: d...@bunabayashi.com
Andy Rutledge
Excuse me, but what about a few people's outrage at someone's
ignorance-based opinion implies a disagreement with freedoms of speech?
This individual has every right to say what he said, and people have a right
to take issue with his broadcast statements without being accused of
intolerance for freedoms of speech. I'm offended by your suggestion.
If you confuse disagreement with opposing liberty, you need to re-examine
your perceptions. I would ask that you explain why I or others cannot
publicly disagree and berate someone for idiocy - surely what you believe
you are doing in your post. I look forward to your explanation.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
-----------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth" <egi...@EARTHLINK.NET>
> I, as well, was wondering about what people thought that the word
"outreach"
> meant. In addition, I thought that maybe we "repealed" the right to
freedom
> of speech, while I was not looking :-). Apparently some of us find it
easier
> to appropriate that right for ourselves, than grant it to others.
>
> Who was it that said "I do not agree with anything you say, but I will die
> for your right to say it" ????
>
> Best regards,
> Liz
********************************************************************************
Iris Cohen
for your right to say it" ? >>
Elizabeth
> against government infringement. This has nothing to do with the First
> Amendment.
Yes David, I know what the Constitution says !!
Best regards,
Liz
Georgia, Zone 7 1/2
Be gentle with the earth - The Dalai Lama
Jim Lewis
No one was hurt by the article/interview. Less than 0.00001% of
people will even remember it 20 minutes after they've read it.
Even fewer will recall the one-paragraph bonsai bash buried
somewhere in the middle of the interview. Of those, a minute
number will care, and a probable equal number will recognize it
for the hyperbole that it was.
A few -- like here -- will get their noses severely put out of
joint and (apparently) lose a lot of sleep over what, in the
scheme of things these days is a tiny (even miniscule) "issue."
If you're really pissed, don't buy the book. If you're really,
REALLY pissed, tell someone ELSE to not buy the book.
But get some perspective! Please. At least be nice.
They're discussing blue pots over on the ABS list . . . ;-)
Sheesh!
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - "People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts
and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just
about all gone." -- Uncle Dave Macon, old-time musician
>
> Excuse me, but what about a few people's outrage at someone's
> ignorance-based opinion implies a disagreement with freedoms of
speech?
> This individual has every right to say what he said, and people
have a right
> to take issue with his broadcast statements without being
accused of
> intolerance for freedoms of speech. I'm offended by your
suggestion.
>
> If you confuse disagreement with opposing liberty, you need to
re-examine
> your perceptions. I would ask that you explain why I or others
cannot
> publicly disagree and berate someone for idiocy - surely what
you believe
> you are doing in your post. I look forward to your
explanation.
> > I, as well, was wondering about what people thought that the
James Harris
Regards,
Jim Harris
S.E. Michigan, Zone 5b
jam...@med.umich.edu
<snip>
>>> Jim Lewis <jkl...@NETTALLY.COM> 11/14/02 8:34:08 AM >>>
Folks . . . aren't you ALL taking this a bit too seriously?
A few -- like here -- will get their noses severely put out of
joint and (apparently) lose a lot of sleep over what, in the
scheme of things these days is a tiny (even miniscule) "issue."
If you're really pissed, don't buy the book. If you're really,
REALLY pissed, tell someone ELSE to not buy the book.
But get some perspective! Please. At least be nice.
They're discussing blue pots over on the ABS list . . . ;-)
Sheesh!
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - "People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts
and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just
about all gone." -- Uncle Dave Macon, old-time musician
<snip>
Robert Seele
snip snip
> If you're really pissed, don't buy the book. If you're really,
> REALLY pissed, tell someone ELSE to not buy the book.
Will there be a book review here , Jim. ;-))))
--
Bob Seele res...@essex1.com
Nicely outside of Chicago, Illinois, Zone 4/5