[IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
Corcoran. Bil
When I checked out the pots in BT, not even paying attention to their
size, my only thoughts were that they looked almost completely modern in
an art form where classic and "old" seems to be the overriding theme.
Personally they didn't appeal to me. Some are beautiful pottery, but
from a bonsai standpoint they really didn't seem to work for me. I will
admit that I do like a more modern pottery approach for some of my
trees, but even with that preference I found them almost too modern or
too non-traditional. Maybe we've run out of ways to make a lotus-shaped
pot look new or interesting in a pot competition or maybe this is the
new wave of bonsai pottery but in either case I have a gut feeling there
is a better way to go that would still appeal to the traditionalists. I
guess time (and next years competition) will tell.
Bil
wmcorcor
PS The size was a little much for my trees too....
==>
==> I'm really curious if the average bonsai guy oit there would , upon
==> seeing one for sale at a convention, think to himself, "oh yea, I
could
==> put my azalea in that"
==> Regards,
==> Dale Cochoy, Wild Things Bonsai Studio, Hartville, Ohio
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dalecochoy
I remember when the NBF/ National Bonsai Arboretum sort-of modeled their competition after his a couple years ago and posted some pics of the finalist pots that I heard a lot of comments about the pots ( particularly the modern catagort) which basically centered around "What bonsai could you ever put in those pots?" At that time I never had doubts that bonsai could be put into any of them but I guess lots of people did! :>)
When in Tokyo and visiting Takagi's Museum I saw several pics of past pots and some in real life. On website there were pics of judging and in all cases I was suprised at the actual size of some of them. Most were what I'd definitely consider of "modern" shapes/colors/styles. These pics in BT84 give dimensions. Most are pretty good sized, definitely not "grass pots" as you might think up front looking at photos. . Several of the chosen pots are planted ( Gee, what a novel idea!). I like them all! BTW, if you go to website you can see all winning pots from last 8 years. Some FANTASTIC technical work there!!
I noted in the BT84 text that several of them note that "this is a hard pot to chose a tree for" or similar comments along those lines.
Now to my question. Since some time has gone by and more people are aware of both the Takagi pots and NBF pots I wondering how many IBC readers would actually consider buying any of them for potting bonsai, keeping in mind the size of most. They aren't grass pots, they are good sized pots. Do you STILL see no use for them.
Have your views changed since seeing some potted with trees,
Have the Europeans attitudes on pots affected any of you.
I'm really curious if the average bonsai guy oit there would , upon seeing one for sale at a convention, think to himself, "oh yea, I could put my azalea in that"
Regards,
Dale Cochoy, Wild Things Bonsai Studio, Hartville, Ohio
DaleC...@Prodigy.Net http://www.WildThingsBonsai.Com
Specializing in power wood carving tools.
Yakimono no Kokoro bonsai pottery of hand-built stoneware
dalecochoy
Your answer is the type I was looking for. You actually answered the
question :>)
Next years Takagi comp I'm sure will be more of new-era type bonsai
containers.
No word on NBF up to 2005 . Possibly then for world convention I guess.
Still in the works. But, judging will be a diferent game altogether than
Takagi's scheme.
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: "Corcoran. Bil" <wmco...@KINGS.EDU>
Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
Dale:
When I checked out the pots in BT, not even paying attention to their
size, my only thoughts were that they looked almost completely modern in
an art form where classic and "old" seems to be the overriding theme.
Personally they didn't appeal to me. Some are beautiful pottery, but
from a bonsai standpoint they really didn't seem to work for me. I will
admit that I do like a more modern pottery approach for some of my
trees, but even with that preference I found them almost too modern or
too non-traditional. Maybe we've run out of ways to make a lotus-shaped
pot look new or interesting in a pot competition or maybe this is the
new wave of bonsai pottery but in either case I have a gut feeling there
is a better way to go that would still appeal to the traditionalists. I
guess time (and next years competition) will tell.
Bil
********************************************************************************
Lynn Boyd
> Bill,
> Your answer is the type I was looking for. You actually
answered the
> question :>)
> Next years Takagi comp I'm sure will be more of new-era type
bonsai
> containers.
> No word on NBF up to 2005 . Possibly then for world
convention I guess.
> Still in the works. But, judging will be a diferent game
altogether than
> Takagi's scheme.
> Dale
Dale,
Don't you think that the more individual stances toward
bonsai style has to be considered along with the that of pots?
If there is something non-classic in bonsai there has to be
the same in pots.
On the gallery I was looking at Walter's post "Bear" and
the first question I had in my mind was, "How would one find a
pot without a potter's help?" I think instead of virtuals of
trees sometimes there needs to be virtuals of pots.
Lynn
Marty Haber
Once there was a virtual potter who planted a virtual tree in a virtual pot.
He fired up the creation to 2300F (virtually,of course). The pot didn't
crack, the tree didn't lose a leaf. It was a mastepiece of virtuality. The
entire virtual bonsai community applauded.
The only problem was that there weren't any non-visualists to visualize the
result.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd" <lynn...@EARTHLINK.NET>
To: <BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
Lynn Boyd
> << virtual tree ... virtual pot >>
> Once there was a virtual potter who planted a virtual tree
in a virtual pot.
> He fired up the creation to 2300F (virtually,of course).
The pot didn't
> crack, the tree didn't lose a leaf. It was a mastepiece of
virtuality. The
> entire virtual bonsai community applauded.
> The only problem was that there weren't any non-visualists
to visualize the
> result.
> Marty
Sure, Marty!
I saw an exhibit at Takagi, wondered if Japan had the
bonsaists to fill the "new era" pots displayed. In the past
two years I no longer wonder if there are trees to fit in
those pots. I wonder now if there are pots enough to hold all
the trees.
Check Walter's "Bear" in the gallery. Now, I think it
would have been easier just to virtualize a pot design and
leave the tree alone as Walter wanted it. But - no potter
jumps in to offer a pot design as others do to design a
tree -prune, trim, bend or chop. I think our potters need to
adjust to this change - throw in their vision of the
non-classic tree's needed pot that will give it style unity.
That would not only make that tree individual, but its pot,
also. Potters get by too easily if they just replicate.
:)) -
Anyone that believes 1/4 of what I say is what I believe
is mistaken. :)
We have some great potters, wow, they could do it!
Lynn
Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA
dalecochoy
From: "Corcoran. Bil" <wmco...@KINGS.EDU>
Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
snip: Maybe we've run out of ways to make a lotus-shaped
pot look new or interesting in a pot competition or maybe this is the
new wave of bonsai pottery but in either case I have a gut feeling there
is a better way to go that would still appeal to the traditionalists.
Bill,
Ome of the problems with a pottery contest, at least THE WAY I SAW IT was
that "traditional" wasn't REALLY wanted, what they wanted was "Traditional
with a twist", unfortunately, you NEVER know what that twist they want
is....and, I doubt they do either.
Dale
dalecochoy
From: "Lynn Boyd" <lynn...@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
> Dale,
> Don't you think that the more individual stances toward
> bonsai style has to be considered along with the that of pots?
> If there is something non-classic in bonsai there has to be
> the same in pots.
Yep! You know, I'd have loved to been a fly on the wall when Takagi's group
was picking out trees to go into some of the pots. I like them all, but, I
can imagine a lot of chin-scratching...."OK, we have these winner pots, now
how can we pot them so everyone will be happy"?
Dale
Corcoran. Bil
In an art form such as bonsai where history and classical design seem to
be the overriding theme I'm a little troubled that the judging would
favor the exact opposite. I guess I'd rather see new interpretations of
classic shapes but maybe with more interesting glazes or variations of
shapes and glazes that still come out looking like bonsai pottery and
not some sort of nursery container or art gallery piece.
I'm all in favor of what some would call an "oddity" or "curiosity" in a
bonsai tree, but in many of those cases what brings it back to being an
interesting bonsai tree to me is an interesting and at least
semi-traditional pot. Put a classical tree in an odd pot and it seems
odd. Put an odd tree in an odd pot and very rarely does it work for me.
Again these are just my visual opinions.
I'm a car guy. When I see the grill of a 1978 BMW or the tail lights of
a 1967 Mustang I see their family resemblance in the cars of today. The
cars are more modern but the tradition and style are still there and
still recognizable. Certainly bonsai has a longer history and tradition
than cars.
We have managed to create an unending variety of bonsai trees in both
specie and style. Yet in almost every case there is an overriding or
underlying tradition in the shape and form of the tree that speaks of
bonsai. I'd like to see us do that in the pottery too.
Bil
==> snip: Maybe we've run out of ways to make a lotus-shaped
==> pot look new or interesting in a pot competition or maybe this is
the
==> new wave of bonsai pottery but in either case I have a gut feeling
there
==> is a better way to go that would still appeal to the
traditionalists.
==>
==> Bill,
==> Ome of the problems with a pottery contest, at least THE WAY I SAW
IT
==> was
==> that "traditional" wasn't REALLY wanted, what they wanted was
==> "Traditional
==> with a twist", unfortunately, you NEVER know what that twist they
want
==> is....and, I doubt they do either.
==> Dale
Andy Rutledge
wonderful by themselves. Matched with a tree, however, the two elements
compete or do not compliment each other harmoniously - which is antithetical
to our art.
Look at the utter artistic failure of the last "Artful Environments" put on
by the Pacific Rim Collection. There, excellent individual works of art
were combined in an awful mishmash of chaos that was neither beautiful nor
artistic. This same thing generally characterizes the combination of
"innovative" pottery and bonsai tree art.
How this is resolved is beyond me.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas
Craig Cowing
> As I see it, the problem with this whole thing is that many of the pots are
> wonderful by themselves. Matched with a tree, however, the two elements
> compete or do not compliment each other harmoniously - which is antithetical
> to our art.
>
> Look at the utter artistic failure of the last "Artful Environments" put on
> by the Pacific Rim Collection. There, excellent individual works of art
> were combined in an awful mishmash of chaos that was neither beautiful nor
> artistic. This same thing generally characterizes the combination of
> "innovative" pottery and bonsai tree art.
>
> How this is resolved is beyond me.
>
> Kind regards,
> Andy Rutledge
> www.bonsai365.com/
> zone 8, Texas
Maybe I'm getting to be an old fart ahead of my time, but I generally like a more
serene, classically styled pot. Something that doesn't compete with the tree.
Some of the pots that appear in these competitions, as Andy points out, are nice as
pieces of pottery but would look terrible with trees in them.
Just my $.02 worth.
Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37
dalecochoy
From: "Andy Rutledge" <ibo...@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
> As I see it, the problem with this whole thing is that many of the pots
are
> wonderful by themselves. Matched with a tree, however, the two elements
> compete or do not compliment each other harmoniously - which is
antithetical
> to our art.
>
> Look at the utter artistic failure of the last "Artful Environments" put
on
> by the Pacific Rim Collection. There, excellent individual works of art
> were combined in an awful mishmash of chaos that was neither beautiful nor
> artistic. This same thing generally characterizes the combination of
> "innovative" pottery and bonsai tree art.
Andy, and others,
How do you feel about this springs "Bonsai InSites" display at the national
arboretum where selected famous potters were asked to design a pot for a
tree selected up front as one to be used for each potter. In other words,
the potter had pictures and measurements of the trees he was creating the
pot for. A couple of them did wind up getting other trees planted in them
at a later date after original pics were taken.
I was VERY interested in this. All of the pots were great technically
challenging works, although I didn't like a couple of the designs, and I
thought a few just in no way were made with planting a living tree in mind.
However,Some matched wonderfully to the chosen tree.
Regards,
p.aradi
Each pot was assigned to a bonsai artists. It was
his "problem" to solve. I am certain he was well
compensated for his efforts as Mr. Takagi is a
known "benefactor."
Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma
----- Original Message -----
From: "dalecochoy" <dalec...@PRODIGY.NET>
To: <BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Alan Walker
here. But new ways of expressing beauty always seem to meet resistance. Whether it is
the distaste for expressionism many had when it emerged in the late 19th century or
simply a new hair color or style, most of us initially tend to react negatively.
Sometimes we do this with good reason. Other times our tastes evolve to acceptance or
even preference.
Some of this will be affected by one's stage of development as an artist.
Novices tend to quickly become rather polarized in their viewpoint, much like young
people tend to be more passionate and polarized in politics (regardless of affiliation)
than older, more experienced people. Exceptions abound, but that's the way we tend to
evolve.
Very few of us are blessed with the passion, talent, and vision, the soul if
you will, of great artists. And you can tell they are different when you meet them.
While they are different from each other and express in different ways, you usually
notice this when you meet them, right from the start. Kobayashi, Kimura, Liporace,
Invernizzi, Naka, Banting, Guidry, Marchal, Valavanis. They all challenge you,
stimulate your creative juices and get you more excited about what you are doing with
your art.
Well, my next patient just showed up. ;-)
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
Andy Rutledge wrote:
As I see it, the problem with this whole thing is that many of the pots are
wonderful by themselves. Matched with a tree, however, the two elements compete or do
not compliment each other harmoniously - which is antithetical to our art.
Look at the utter artistic failure of the last "Artful Environments" put on
by the Pacific Rim Collection. There, excellent individual works of art
were combined in an awful mishmash of chaos that was neither beautiful nor
artistic. This same thing generally characterizes the combination of
"innovative" pottery and bonsai tree art.
How this is resolved is beyond me.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ zone 8, Texas
Jim Lewis
> Look at the utter artistic failure of the last "Artful
Environments" put on
> by the Pacific Rim Collection. There, excellent individual
works of art
> were combined in an awful mishmash of chaos that was neither
beautiful nor
> artistic. This same thing generally characterizes the
combination of
> "innovative" pottery and bonsai tree art.
If this is the exhibit pictured in the last ABS Journal, "utter"
is an overstatement and a half. It IS an opinion, however, but
probably not one shared by everyone. Not all of the
combinations worked, but some did -- and I challenge anyone to
put on an exhibit of current artists' works (any medium and
especially mixed media) and do much different in the way of mixed
opinions as to its worthwhileness.
I'd almost guarantee you that of 10 viewers of the Pacific Rim
display, none would agree upon much of any of them being the best
or worst.
Personally, I'd like to see more "bonsai" displayed with artworks
from the same country. It seems a tad silly for us westerners to
ALWAYS display our trees with Japanese or Chinese art. Unless
we're all making cookie-cutter, Japanese-looking bonsai, they're
OUR trees, OUR designs, and should/could be displayed with OUR
art.
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman
Andy Rutledge
From: "Jim Lewis" <jkl...@NETTALLY.COM>
<snip>
> Personally, I'd like to see more "bonsai" displayed with artworks
> from the same country. It seems a tad silly for us westerners to
> ALWAYS display our trees with Japanese or Chinese art. Unless
> we're all making cookie-cutter, Japanese-looking bonsai, they're
> OUR trees, OUR designs, and should/could be displayed with OUR
> art.
> Jim Lewis
Jim, your sentiment here is likely shared by many, including myself. For
instance, keeping in mind that the Japanese tokonoma, while based on
Japanese cultural decoration, also (mostly) obeys basic artistry - 3-point
display. This kind of display just _works_. So, why not a Western bonsai
display that also follows this basic artistic convention of 3-point display
(not at all Japanese) with something like:
- an scrub oak or mesquite bonsai (windswept) planted on a large slab
covered in sand
- a small animal skull surrounded by sand (as companion)
- an old, broken wagon wheel leaning up against the backdrop wall
or
- a bald cypress (individual or forest) planted on a slab (I like slabs ;-)
- a ceramic menagerie of alligator eyes, head crown and snout (configured
like one resting below the surface of the water, but looking at the world
above) arranged on a piece of black glass
- a branch, festooned with Spanish moss hanging (like the scroll) from the
backdrop
This is still very much in the context of "bonsai" and still very much
artistic (following basic rules of artistry and human perception) and very
much Western.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas
Lynn Boyd
> Maybe I'm getting to be an old fart ahead of my time, but I
generally like a more
> serene, classically styled pot. Something that doesn't
compete with the tree.
> Some of the pots that appear in these competitions, as Andy
points out, are nice as
> pieces of pottery but would look terrible with trees in
them.
>
A good point, Craig, to think on, that of non-competitive
pots:
But, is that all we want of managing an artful bonsai?
Non-competitive is a negative position IF one can have a pot
that in some manner has "flow" with the tree, either in form
or line suggests it was made especially for that tree. As
trees have gained some individuality, and I am thinking
mostly of the European trees, so has pottery - but they each
are going their own way, growing and experimenting yet as they
must.
It is not always so, of course, Potters are working with
individuals, and the result can be strongly Opposite of
non-competitive elements; these combined efforts may
sometime surpass the classic usage by being of a form, texture
or with lines that have such unity that it is obviously
intended to be singly paired. I think that is a goal that
gives the present freedom of design a good face. It is
possible to work outside the traditional conventions of an art
and be acceptable only if enough universal elements remain to
give an emphasis to Art form. One thing we can do is
emphasize that element of unity between pot and tree more than
it has been done in the past.
Lynn
Lynn Boyd
> How do you feel about this springs "Bonsai InSites" display
at the national
> arboretum where selected famous potters were asked to design
a pot for a
> tree selected up front as one to be used for each potter. In
other words,
> the potter had pictures and measurements of the trees he was
> However,Some matched wonderfully to the chosen tree.
> Regards,
> Dale
Dale,
I was very interested, too. One thought went
through my mind continually as I kept studying them. I wished
some of them had thought more "organically" then geometricly.
As these newer designed trees seem to have less formality of
shape than classic they appear more organic in nature and the
pot needs to do so, too - for my wish.
In the Takagi exhibit I recall being turned off by some
colorings, where, again, I would prefer they remain earthen
colors- which can still be other than brown, but neutralized
to such terms as sienna, ochre - the natural earthen shades,
just another unity of design with the tree.
Lynn
Jim Lewis
> pots:
> But, is that all we want of managing an artful bonsai?
> Non-competitive is a negative position IF one can have a pot
> that in some manner has "flow" with the tree, either in form
> or line suggests it was made especially for that tree. As
> trees have gained some individuality, and I am thinking
> mostly of the European trees, so has pottery - but they each
> are going their own way, growing and experimenting yet as they
> must.
> It is not always so, of course, Potters are working with
> individuals, and the result can be strongly Opposite of
> non-competitive elements; these combined efforts may
> sometime surpass the classic usage by being of a form, texture
> or with lines that have such unity that it is obviously
> intended to be singly paired. I think that is a goal that
> gives the present freedom of design a good face. It is
> possible to work outside the traditional conventions of an art
> and be acceptable only if enough universal elements remain to
> give an emphasis to Art form. One thing we can do is
> emphasize that element of unity between pot and tree more than
> it has been done in the past.
> Lynn
And then, of course, isn't it plausible that you might have a
tree that sets off the POT? I know we do bonsai, but the tree
doesn't have to be king all the time, does it?
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman
********************************************************************************
Jim Lewis
> > Personally, I'd like to see more "bonsai" displayed with
artworks
> > from the same country. It seems a tad silly for us
westerners to
> > ALWAYS display our trees with Japanese or Chinese art.
Unless
> > we're all making cookie-cutter, Japanese-looking bonsai,
they're
> > OUR trees, OUR designs, and should/could be displayed with
OUR
> > art.
> > Jim Lewis
> --------------------
>
display
> (not at all Japanese) with something like:
> - an scrub oak or mesquite bonsai (windswept) planted on a
large slab
> covered in sand
> - a small animal skull surrounded by sand (as companion)
> - an old, broken wagon wheel leaning up against the backdrop
wall
> or
> - a bald cypress (individual or forest) planted on a slab (I
like slabs ;-)
> - a ceramic menagerie of alligator eyes, head crown and snout
(configured
> like one resting below the surface of the water, but looking at
the world
> above) arranged on a piece of black glass
> - a branch, festooned with Spanish moss hanging (like the
scroll) from the
> backdrop
>
Ummm. None of those seem very "arty" to me -- or, perhaps
"landscapes" -- the
saguaro-cactus-against-a-sunset-with-a-pretty-Indian-girl-sitting
-at-a-campfire-"Western" art that you find at One-Eyed Bill's
Trading Post somewhere in Arizona. (Of course the term "Western
Art" -- referring to cowboy and Indian paintings, and others of
similar ilk -- is largely an oxymoron, anyway.)
I very much like the idea of bonsai shown against modern
traditional art. (I recall Walter [or someone] showing an
European exhibit on the gallery where the trees were juxtaposed
against large "modern" paintings. That _really_ worked. In the
Pacific Rim show, they tried 3-D trees with 3-D art (mostly) and
I suspect you'd have to see it in 3-D to get the true effect.
But the pics in ABS were very interesting nonetheless.
Anyway, it's all a matter of opinion.
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman
********************************************************************************
Andy Rutledge
I thought that all but 2 of them were pretty bad. One was okay (Ah Leon and
Mike Ramina's pine) and one was pretty good (Brett Thomas and Jack Sustic's
Buttonwood). I can appreciate the idea behind such endeavors - matching
nuveau-pot to tree - but to disregard the basis of what works for the medium
(bonsai - pot and tree) is to have a slim chance for any aesthetic success.
This kind of thing is good, but we mustn't equate valiant efforts with
excellent results. This was a poor result, but that is no reason to stop
trying. However, a foray into the rules of artistry would be a good
exercise for all involved.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/
zone 8, Texas
Corcoran. Bil
Personally I would be very interested in seeing a potter or several
potters presented with a tree and allow them to each develop their
pottery vision for the same tree. I think in my mind that would do more
to push the boundaries of bonsai pottery while still remaining
complimentary to the tree and true to the art. In other words the pot
was developed for the sake of the tree and not for the sake of the pot
itself. Don't get me wrong I love non-bonsai pottery but this concept
of developing from the ground up a pot for a specific tree I think is
very exciting. Makes me want to take up the art of pottery.
With that in mind I'd rather see the potters pushing into pots that
relate to one another in a 3-point display and especially as Andy
outlined a "new" type of display. I may be giving up an original idea
or perhaps someone has already done it but I always thought a cypress
swamp in pot would be incredible. Andy mentioned Spanish moss...imagine
the whole swamp with stumps and knees poking out of the water and
spanish moss in the style of a land and water pot but with most or all
water....sort of a swampy water-filled forest style. The pot created
for such a display as well as some of the other displays to me is more
interesting than some of the original pots of this thread.
Bil
==> Andy, and others,
==> How do you feel about this springs "Bonsai InSites" display at the
==> national
==> arboretum where selected famous potters were asked to design a pot
for a
==> tree selected up front as one to be used for each potter. In other
==> words,
==> the potter had pictures and measurements of the trees he was
creating
==> the
==> pot for. A couple of them did wind up getting other trees planted in
==> them
==> at a later date after original pics were taken.
==> I was VERY interested in this. All of the pots were great
technically
==> challenging works, although I didn't like a couple of the designs,
and
==> I
==> thought a few just in no way were made with planting a living tree
in
==> mind.
==> However,Some matched wonderfully to the chosen tree.
==> Regards,
==> Dale
Lynn Boyd
> And then, of course, isn't it plausible that you might have
a
> tree that sets off the POT? I know we do bonsai, but the
tree
> doesn't have to be king all the time, does it?
No, there could be a serendipitous occasion when that
happens.
It is the difference in mediums - bonsai is so much less
flexible since a tree guides our styling with its natural
form, but a pot medium is very flexible; in fact, there is
nothing saying that pots are always ceramic.
Lynn
Jim Lewis
>
> perhaps if one remembers the simple rule of the
> pot being to the tree as the frame is to the painting.
>
It's probably pointless to extend this discussion too much
farther (as in almost ALL discussions on "bonsai as art"), but I
just don't buy the pot-as-frame argument; it doesn't wash for me
at all. The pot is _at least_ an integral part of the bonsai
design. (And, what, may I ask, were those gawdawful, ornate,
gulded monstrosities around some many "Old Masters" if not the
frame-maker's statement (or at least something that says "this
painting is IMPORTANT, look at the expensive frame I have put it
in.")
Pots are part of the overall bonsai design, and other comments
notwithstanding, _I_ at least can see the possibility of the tree
being part of the pot design.
> AND the second simple rule of stimulating the
> imagination through the use of a well designed tree.
> Thus one would not need the props.
>
Depends on your point of view. To the sculptor that made his or
her part of a bonsai/art display, the BONSAI might be the "prop."
I think some of those Pacific Rim (and Walter's pics) represented
a pretty good partnership in the art/desiign world.
> If a painting needs props to explain itself,it is a
> failure.Same for a tree.
THAT is probably true, but see above.
>
> BUT if I put myself in the shoes of the early odd
> tree collectors of China,way back when.I wonder if
> we aren't losing the simple appeal that made the
> folk of the past seek to take home the objects that
> they found in nature ?
> [Remember that the mind of man can contemplate
> a pebble into an entity,given enough time.]
Yup. The question arises (again) -- why?
>
> The problem with this so-called Modern World is that
> for most it seems to be pointless to live.
> Bonsai/Penjing/Painting requires of the individual some
> cultivation of the mind,and I think it is waste trying to
> pretend that all are equal in being able to appreciate a love
> of nature or refinement.
ALL are not equal. Sometime one may be better than others. At
other times, the combination of two or more elements may be
perfect harmony.
Why do peole insist the everything be absolutes: This is good;
that is bad?
I should NEVER enter into "bonsai and art" debates. They're like
stationary whirlwinds!
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - "People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts
and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just
about all gone." -- Uncle Dave Macon, old-time musician
Andy Rutledge
From: "Khaimraj Seepersad" <cold...@TSTT.NET.TT>
<snip>
> AND the second simple rule of stimulating the
> imagination through the use of a well designed tree.
> Thus one would not need the props.
> If a painting needs props to explain itself,it is a
> failure.Same for a tree.
-----------
There are many similarities between painting and bonsai, but this ain't one
of them. Your observation denies any distinct quality between painting and
bonsai and this is a mistake. Every art has its companion pieces:
- Go to the concert of a popular musician and the music may be wonderful.
The way that the lighting augments the music is also often wonderful.
Without the lighting as a component of the concert, there may well be
diminished impact and interest. It's not a prop, its a companion element
that adds meaning.
- Sculpture nearly always has greater impact when it is shown in a setting
that sets it off well; the use of space and lighting -- the clean slate of a
large room without furniture, a simple spotlight above the work. These
things serve as companions to the work and clear the way for concise
communication to the viewer.
- Paintings, too, use compainion pieces. A blank wall that "frames" the
frame and painting is virtually always better than a cluttered wall. A
properly positioned light adds drama. Even a simple bench placed in front
of the painting (especially when there are few or no other benches around)
helps to add weight to the display and invites interest.
So don't tell me that a painting or a bonsai or any othe work of art is a
failure if it "needs props" to explain itself. What you're referring to are
not props, they're companions and they don't explain, they support. This is
artistry and you, as an artist, should know this. This dog won't hunt.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas
********************************************************************************
Beckenbach, Jay
for bonsai. Maybe later. But has anyone thought about what you are to do
with these special and specific pots when the tree grows, changes or
(shudder!) dies?
Think I'll go back to trying to find an appropriate background/pot for my
trees. Just a thought. Have fun - jay
Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a
-----Original Message-----
From: Corcoran. Bil [mailto:wmco...@KINGS.EDU]
---------- CLIP ----------
Personally I would be very interested in seeing a potter or several
potters presented with a tree and allow them to each develop their
pottery vision for the same tree....
---------- CLIP ----------
Corcoran. Bil
Simple...just make another of the exact same tree...
;]
Bil
==> Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
==>
==> Humm... Interesting thread. I like pottery and have done some also
but
==> not
==> for bonsai. Maybe later. But has anyone thought about what you are
to
==> do
==> with these special and specific pots when the tree grows, changes or
==> (shudder!) dies?
==>
==> Think I'll go back to trying to find an appropriate background/pot
for
==> my
==> trees. Just a thought. Have fun - jay
==>
==> Jay Beckenbach - Melrose, FL - Zone 8b/9a
Kitsune Miko
turns.
I think the ideal would be that the "artist" would do
both tree and pot as a single unit establishing
balance where the "artist" though most necessary to
the composition. There are times when a beautiful
rock is planted with a small tree used to set off the
stone. Isn't this what art is all about? Self
expression? the last qustion then being whether the
art you have created in a contemporay situation is
still bonsai.
Sandy
Andy Rutledge
From: "Khaimraj Seepersad" <cold...@TSTT.NET.TT>
> Clutching at straws.
---------
Heh, heh. Right. ;-) None of what I cited is true. I just made it up.
You got me.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas
********************************************************************************
dalecochoy
I agree with both your statements below. I found the Bonsai InSites pots to
be less "Wild" in colors than some of Takagi's pot winners, but I rarely see
a Takagi winner that I don't think would have a nice look if correct tree
was placed in it, but, some of the InSites pots just NEVER would . I keep
thinking of the two of which one looked like a smashed cardboard box and the
other looked like a ...I hate to say it but....Trash can!-----
But, some matched VERY nice.
Getting back to size consideration. MANY of Takagi's pots would make
wonderful accent plant pots if smaller. I think MOST would agree with this?
But, it's the SIZE of many and the thought of a styled "classical"
important word here) tree in them that turns most off. I'd love to see
some "off the wall" trees virtualy potted in some of the "off the wall"
Takagi pots. or, some more "off the wall" trees virtually planted in some of
the Bonsai InSites pots.
Dale
Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd" <lynn...@earthlink.net>
To: "dalecochoy" <dalec...@PRODIGY.NET>
Cc: "BONSAI" <BON...@home.ease.lsoft.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
>
dalecochoy
From: "Andy Rutledge" <ibo...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
> Hi Dale,
>
> I thought that all but 2 of them were pretty bad. One was okay (Ah Leon
and
> Mike Ramina's pine)
Yes, nice. Looks like a "bonsai pot" including a ceramic stand.
and one was pretty good (Brett Thomas and Jack Sustic's
> Buttonwood).
At the show this tree had been replaced with Ron Langs blooming wisteria. I
thought it was MUCH nicer than the photo of the buttonwood in pot. BTW, this
pot was pretty big!
A couple others were repotted with different trees and I think Ron added one
more of his own pots/trees to the display that was not in photo book. I
think I have a pic of the pot with wisteria. If so I'll post on gallery
today.
Earlier when I mentioned a couple that just didn't "go" with living
trees...I forgot about the one that was made like stacked dresser drawers!
Dale Cochoy
dalecochoy
From: "Andy Rutledge" <ibo...@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
> Hi Dale,
>
one was pretty good (Brett Thomas and Jack Sustic's
> Buttonwood
Andy and all,
I posted a few changed trees or new pots/trees to the gallery.
These tree/pots were different shots in the booklet or not in it at all.
Dale
Corcoran. Bil
I really like the 2nd photo. I find the balance very pleasing at least
from a visual sense. I also like the tree and how the colors of the
"pot" compliment it. It is certainly not what I would call a
traditional or natural pot but it works for me. I would like to have
seen the rectangular elements, especially the smaller one have a more
rough or less perfect rectangular shape at the top.
The fist picture is actually an interesting pot in that as much as my
first impression was that they left it in the sun too long my long-term
impression was that of a rocky hillside on the edge of a small stream.
I'm not sure the Wisteria works for me but then again I'm not a big fan
of Wisteria. I would love to see a willow potted in that pot and see it
sitting in a large unglazed brown ceramic tray perhaps even with a blue
glaze inside the tray only. I think this would add to its appeal. I
also would like to see the back of the pot continue the upward slop to
get more of the hillside/streamside feel.
The third photo just reminds me of those old 70's "hand" chairs. I
wasn't crazy about them then and I'm still no big fan. I do like the
Azalea.
Bil
==> Andy and all,
==> I posted a few changed trees or new pots/trees to the gallery.
==> These tree/pots were different shots in the booklet or not in it at
all.
==> Dale
dalecochoy
From: "Kitsune Miko" <ki...@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
> This thread has taken some interesting twists and
> turns.
>
> I think the ideal would be that the "artist" would do
> both tree and pot as a single unit establishing
> balance where the "artist" though most necessary to
> the composition.
> Sandy
This certainly is the best idea, of course, but, strays from the original
intent of the first question in the thread.
Regards,
Dale
Lynn Boyd
> > AND the second simple rule of stimulating the
> > imagination through the use of a well designed tree.
> > Thus one would not need the props.
> > If a painting needs props to explain itself,it is a
> > failure.Same for a tree.
> > Khaimraj
> -----------
From Andy:
> So don't tell me that a painting or a bonsai or any othe
work of art is a
> failure if it "needs props" to explain itself. What you're
referring to are
> not props, they're companions and they don't explain, they
support. This is
> artistry and you, as an artist, should know this. This dog
won't hunt.
>
--------------------
Khaimraj and Andy,
I don't think things surround a work of art to be companions
for that work - but, especially in asian art like bonsai and
suiseki, are giving the work a "context" - which does give
additional support to the meaning of the work. These arts
differ, to me, from painting in as much as their context can
be seasonal, or refer to something that is important when
drawn from the collection of objects; context matters very
much. I don't think a frame on a painting was meant in the
same way. A frame can function as an interface between a
room's decor and the painting -or is decorative.
On the other hand in many modern galleries we hang without
framing - so there is no confusion between reaction to frame
and reaction to painting - the viewer supplies his own context
and surrounding. This is a much preferred exhibit now.
I don't find it possible in my experience to see painting
and bonsai/suiseki similar with regard to displaying because
of the weight of meaning connected to the asian display
methods.
Lynn
dalecochoy
definitely a case of you get what you get!
BTW Folks , If you don't know, or wonder what we are talking about :>). You
can view all the display/catalog pics at these sites and I think you can
still order a show catalog if you wish.
www.baltimoreclayworks.org/bonsai/thumbs.html
and
www.baltimoreclayworks.org/bonsai/insitesindex.html
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: "Corcoran. Bil" <wmco...@KINGS.EDU>
Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
Dale...thanks for posting the photos.
I also like the tree and how the colors of the
"pot" compliment it. It is certainly not what I would call a
traditional or natural pot but it works for me. I would like to have
seen the rectangular elements, especially the smaller one have a more
rough or less perfect rectangular shape at the top.
The fist picture is actually an interesting pot in that as much as my
first impression was that they left it in the sun too long my long-term
impression was that of a rocky hillside on the edge of a small stream.
I'm not sure the Wisteria works for me but then again I'm not a big fan
of Wisteria. I would love to see a willow potted in that pot and see it
sitting in a large unglazed brown ceramic tray perhaps even with a blue
glaze inside the tray only. I think this would add to its appeal. I
also would like to see the back of the pot continue the upward slop to
get more of the hillside/streamside feel.
The third photo just reminds me of those old 70's "hand" chairs. I
wasn't crazy about them then and I'm still no big fan. I do like the
Azalea.
********************************************************************************
dalecochoy
From: "Corcoran. Bil" <wmco...@KINGS.EDU>
Subject: Re: [IBC] BT#84 Takagi pot comp wonderings
Dale...thanks for posting the photos.
I really like the 2nd photo. I find the balance very pleasing at least
from a visual sense. I also like the tree and how the colors of the
"pot" compliment it. It is certainly not what I would call a
traditional or natural pot but it works for me. I would like to have
seen the rectangular elements, especially the smaller one have a more
rough or less perfect rectangular shape at the top.
This pic/comment makes me think of a side question I have, but, it is mainly
for the experienced potters out there.
This pot in gallery post ( rectangles/squares w/ tall juniper) was from a
wood fired kiln. My question: Would you consider the ash glaze on, under
and inside 100% of the pot a "glaze" since it was "blown on " or deposited
by the kiln instead of being brushed, sprayed or dipped on? Just curious.
Regards,
Jim Lewis
> art you have created in a contemporay situation is
> still bonsai.
If it even matters.
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman
********************************************************************************
Kitsune Miko
> > the last qustion then being whether the
> > art you have created in a contemporay situation is
> > still bonsai.
>
>
> If it even matters.
To me, they are not bonsai as in most compositions the
trees were secondary, but does it matter? People are
going to do things like this whether we agree they are
bonsai or not.
Bonsai is not a static art form. New things are
triemd on a regular basis.
Kitsune Miko
Andy Rutledge
----- Original Message -----
From: "Khaimraj Seepersad" <cold...@TSTT.NET.TT>
> Good Day to All,
> Andy,
> there isn't much point in getting upset with me,
> for the very same qualities in my personality
> that allow me to create,also allow me to have
> opinions.
------------------
No, no, not upset. I just found your comment humorous and full of
politicization and absent of substance. It was not a substantive response,
that's all.
------------------
<snip>
> As to paintings and walls,sculpture and space to view,
> I believe the painters and potters out there understood
> what I said.
> Stay Well.
> Khaimraj
------------------
Well, I'm a painter and I've no idea what you mean. I've been trying to
explain my points, why don't you make the same effort. Thanks.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas
********************************************************************************
Chris Cochrane
> No word on NBF up to 2005 . Possibly then
> for (the) world convention, I guess.
Hopefully, the 3rd NBF sponsored pot competition will occur in 2004. It is
not a done deal, however. IBC comments on a 2004 competition would be
welcomed & will be shared with NBF's President & Executive Director.
This year's Upper Courtyard Construction at the National Bonsai and Penjing
Museum nixed a late winter/early spring scheduling of the competition this
year. The rescheduled (from 2002) Bonsai InSites display led the 2003
exhibition schedule at the Museum in the spring.
As I recall in 2002, a mis-step in potter entry fees (a $75 request which
was later reduced to $35) probably reduced participation. Once again, the
Curator from the Smithsonian's Renwick Gallery led a team of judges
including the Curator of the Bonsai Museum in judging pots in a traditional
as well as a modern category. They required slide photos to screen pots in
the first level of competition.
What worked? What didn't? What should have been considered which wasn't?
Was anything done right... :-)...?
Is there something in a 2004 juried exhibit that could heat-up competition
for 2005?
Best wishes,
Chris... C. Cochrane, sas...@erols.com, Richmond VA USA
John B.
Etz...@Etz-Nab.Etz-Nab wrote on 3/30/03 9:58 PM:
> How do you root an azalea?
>
> I have several azaleas around my house. I would like to clip off a branch
> and attempt to develop it into a Bonsai.
>
> Is it difficult to root Azalea? What should I do?
It's not terribly difficult, but you need to give the cuttings the attention
they need for several months. Typically I have success with 12 out of 18
cuttings. If you've got patience and don't let them dry out, you should get
some beautiful plants.
- Get some little plastic six-packs, like the ones that they sell impatiens
in at the nursery.
- Fill them with wet sand, up to about 4/5ths from the top. (If you use dry
sand it will be difficult to insert the stems properly.)
- Make Azalea cuttings about two inches long that are semi-woody and
semi-green. (In other words, new shoots that are not all green.) A good time
to harvest is shortly after the bloom when the growth spurt starts.
- Remove all the leaves from the stem, except for three to five leaves near
the tip. (Some people recommend cutting these remaining leaves short. It
looks brutal, but doesn't seem to hurt the plants at all. The theory is that
if you fail to keep a cutting moist, it will loose water through the leaf
surfaces -- the less leave surface, the less danger. But I'll go on record
to say that this doesn't make perfect sense to me. And I got good results
with both methods. Just keep the your cuttings moist.)
- Dip each stem in water and then into RootTone rooting hormone or a similar
product. Get a good coating on the stem.
- Part the sand by inserting a pencil straight down into it. Insert the
stem, being careful not to knock off the hormone.
- Press on the sand downward, and tap on the container a bit, to bring it
into contact with the stem.
- Place the six-packs inside a clear or translucent container -- something
with a small amount of ventilation, or one with a removable lid left
slightly ajar.
- Leave an very thin layer water in the bottom of the container for humidity
-- if you don't see some condensation on inside the container, add water.
But don't let the six-pack stand or swim in the water. (Try adding gravel
and resting the six-pack on that, never letting the water level go above the
gravel.)
- Place the clear container in a bright outdoor location -- a place that
gets no direct sun, or only the slightest of the direct morning rays ... and
where you'll remember to tend the cuttings and mist them regularly.
- IMPORTANT: Mist the leaves every day or two now for several months. Yup,
that's how long it takes. And the really hard part is providing this small
but essential care over such an extended period. Above all, you must keep
the leaves moist -- until the cuttings have grown new roots they get all
their moisture through their leaves.
- If you want, you can mist occasionally with a half strength fertilizer.
You can gently water the sand occasionally to help in adding humidity to the
environment, and to encourage root growth. But remember, in the early stages
this will not help hydrating the plant directly through the stem, and may
only encourage rot of the stem. As you see healthy leaf growth, you may
occasionally water the sand lightly.
- If a cutting goes yellow or brown, removed it so as to prevent the spread
of rot or disease.
- Once the cuttings have grown one to two inches, they probably have
developed enough root for transplanting to soil, and may begin their normal
terrestrial life.
- Gently remove the cutting with a spoon -- to avoid damaging the young
roots, take as much sand as you can. Use a mister or a soft stream of a hose
to rinse off most of the remaining sand. Then carefully place the cutting in
in a four to six inch clay pot that's filled with good moisture-holding
soil. (Pre-moistened the soil as you did with the sand so the plant won't
spend it's first few days in a dry pocket in the dirt!)
SUGGESTION: Don't transplant your rooted cuttings into tiny pots -- while
they look appropriate, they're far more likely to dry out. You probably
don't want to lose these little guys after many months of good care.
NOTE: Cuttings will tend to rot in any medium but sand. Slightly coarse sand
works well because it doesn't water log the stem.
This method works with many plants that won't root in water.
Best of luck,
John