[IBC] Educating Art People?
sam crowell
art. There seems to be as many points of view as people who are willing to
voice their opinions - that's fine. For my part I do see bonsai as an art,
but the difference is using a living plant, rather than canvas or a musical
instrument.
I recently had an experience that frankly, left me totally befuddled. I
would like to share that experience.
I was doing some banking business, and found that the community "art
association" had set up an office in the same building as my bank. I looked
around for a few moments at the few pieces on display. A woman walked up to
me and asked if I were involved in any arts myself. I commented that I had
been mostly involved with bonsai the last couple years as my main artistic
endeavor. She smiled and nodded approvingly. I asked if the art
association might ever consider a bonsai exhibit? She replied, "we don't
usually have textile art displays". "Textile arts? I am speaking of bonsai
- growing trees in pots, a Japanese art." She commented that she had
thought it was some weaving technique, and it was painfully obvious that
once she realized that I was talking about plants, there was absolutely no
further interest on her part. "You might see if we have a garden club in
town", and very nearly just walked away. I ended up feeling so baffled by
the exchange I left, feeling rather confused.
This is a small community, and I realize that the "art" community is rather
insular, but with the stated purpose of advocating art and increasing art
awareness in the community, I think this person did a great disservice to
their organization.
I understand that a lot of bonsai enthusiasts are at odds with one another
regarding the degree or even relevance of bonsai as art, but how does one
approach someone IN the art community, who should be knowledgeable in the
arts, who simply offhand rejects bonsai as being unworthy even of
discussion? I feel I need to add from my interaction, and viewing of the
artworks on display, the idea being promoted here is "fine arts".
I have no idea how to possibly do bonsai "outreach". I have no desire or
interest in antagonizing the art association people, but I found it rather
disheartening that judging by displayed pieces, it seemed that unless
something was abstract, totally non-functional, and definitely non-living,
it had no place in "Art". I don't care to get into a debate about what it
art, that isn't what I am after. What I am after is any suggestions for
bridge building. Suggestions?
Sam Crowell
Klamath Falls, Oregon
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Andy Rutledge
From: "sam crowell" <sam_c_...@HOTMAIL.COM>
<snip of great stuff>
> I have no idea how to possibly do bonsai "outreach". I have no desire or
> interest in antagonizing the art association people, but I found it rather
> disheartening that judging by displayed pieces, it seemed that unless
> something was abstract, totally non-functional, and definitely non-living,
> it had no place in "Art". I don't care to get into a debate about what it
> art, that isn't what I am after. What I am after is any suggestions for
> bridge building. Suggestions?
> Sam Crowell
Sam,
Your story is indicative of what we who value bonsai as art are up against
in this country. Bonsai is a Fine Art, but it is not percieved as such
because - probably because - most Americans never see artistic bonsai,
either artfully composed trees or the artistic display of bonsai in
tokonoma.
In my recent interview with Dave De Groot (curator for the Pacific Rim
Collection), he noted that he cannot get the Pac. Rim Collection listed in
the local Arts Directory. Also, the art editor for the local newspaper
won't even return his emails! ;-)
In time, there will be more opportunities for the general public in this
country to become acquainted with bonsai as art, but until then, we're stuck
in the situation you describe.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
Alan Walker
bonsai or rejection of bonsai as an art. It is more a matter of ignorance of
bonsai. One aspect of this is that even if they do know a bit about bonsai, there
is still the issue of how do you categorize it. For all the drive towards
creativity in the arts, there is still a strong need to categorize and
compartmentalize, especially for those who coordinate or write about these things.
Bonsai does not neatly fit into any of the standard categories of arts.
I have looked into getting a piece of the funding which is handed out by my
state (and yours probably does, too) each year. Aside from the 501.c.3
requirements, the biggest problem is what category to apply under. And where are
the recognized standards to judge the entries?
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
********************************************************************************
Iris Cohen
plants, there was absolutely no further interest on her part. >>
Not quite that bad here. Our club used to have our annual show at the local
museum, which was fine with everyone, until one year they told us not to come
back any more because we were displaying too many of the same trees year after
year.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much
that ain't so."
Josh Billings (Henry Wheeler Shaw), 1818-1885
Andy Rutledge
From: "Alan Walker" <awbo...@IAMERICA.NET>
...
> I have looked into getting a piece of the funding which is handed
out by my
> state (and yours probably does, too) each year. Aside from the 501.c.3
> requirements, the biggest problem is what category to apply under. And
where are
> the recognized standards to judge the entries?
> Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
In Japan - the NBA judging criteria.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
********************************************************************************
James Allan
or
>interest in antagonizing the art association people, but I found it
rather
>disheartening that judging by displayed pieces, it seemed that unless
>something was abstract, totally non-functional, and definitely
non-living,
>it had no place in "Art". I don't care to get into a debate about what
it
>art, that isn't what I am after. What I am after is any suggestions
for
>bridge building. Suggestions?
Sam,
I think things will change but acceptance will also depend on the crowd.
Bonsai will be seen as a culturally exotic product for a long time
simply because the general public lacks first hand experience. This
shouldn't be a surprise since bonsai is still seen as a sort of mystical
technology even in horticultural societies. Exposure is the first step.
Last week I mentioned the cover of a UK art mag. which featured a bonsai
(by Cerith Wyn Evans, the picture as at:
http://art.teleportacia.org/james/frieze.jpg) and asked the list for
comments. I've wrote to the magazine and the gallery where the artist
usually exhibits since I'd like to ask him about his bonsai/art links
but there's been no response. If anything comes from this I'll fwd it to
the list.
Natalie Jeremijenko's an interesting artist who did a piece with "trees
in pots". Can this be called post-modern techno-bonsai?
http://www.offbeattravel.com/trees.JPG
http://www.tfaoi.com/am/14am/14am8.jpg
http://www.artnet.com/Magazine/reviews/robinson/robinson8-23-b.asp
best,
James
Nigel Kent
'ART' wrong, 'SKILL' correct, language interpretation abused.
The debate is foolish, grow your bonsai with timely, acquired skill, enjoy
the results, which should, in my opinion be reward enough.
Greetings from Amsterdam....Nigel
Per Arne Pedersen
- Bridge building within art? That is impossible, at least that how it
seems to be... (A composer would say what she is doing is art, and
nobody else. The classic painter would say that what he is doing is
art, and nobody else. This list will never end within the art...)
What has created the most famous artists? The answer is in most cases
the critique of their work.
Until there is an "Art Study for Bonsai" at the university, which makes
students able to categorize, summarise, compare styles, etc. - there
will not be any art reviews in the "right" magazines/newspapers either.
This follows by not taking Bonsai under the umbrella as an art as well.
The way to go is probably to show Bonsai together and in relation to
other exhibitions/performances, - like "abstract painting and Bonsai",
and "a string quartet playing,- with all the decoration of Bonsai's",
etc. I know this has been done in Europe, but I'm not sure about how
well this was told to the public (and what the public actually did
"see")...
Remember, that the "battalion" of Critics need to know *what* they are
seeing (- and later writing about). Until that time, we just have to
keep our own shows... However, I feel certain that Bonsai will be
accepted as an art eventually... :-)
Thanks,
.per arne
------------------ message is snipped ----------------------------
Sam says:
I have no idea how to possibly do bonsai "outreach". I have no desire
or
interest in antagonizing the art association people, but I found it
rather
disheartening that judging by displayed pieces, it seemed that unless
something was abstract, totally non-functional, and definitely
non-living,
it had no place in "Art". I don't care to get into a debate about what
it
art, that isn't what I am after. What I am after is any suggestions for
bridge building. Suggestions?
Sam Crowell
Klamath Falls, Oregon
--------------------- end of snip ------------------------------------
Craig Cowing
> <snip>
>
> Sam,
>
> Your story is indicative of what we who value bonsai as art are up against
> in this country. Bonsai is a Fine Art, but it is not percieved as such
> because - probably because - most Americans never see artistic bonsai,
> either artfully composed trees or the artistic display of bonsai in
> tokonoma.
Unfortunately that's right. Most Americans still think of bonsai as the little
green junipers they see in the grocery store or Walmart at Christmas which die
after a few months.
> <snip>
> In time, there will be more opportunities for the general public in this
> country to become acquainted with bonsai as art, but until then, we're stuck
> in the situation you describe.
>
The Yama Ki Bonsai Society, which meets in Stamford, CT but has a lot of people
from the NYC area, has an exhibition every year at the New York Botanical Garden.
This has been going on for somewhere around 20 years. There is a rotunda at the
center of what I guess is the main building. It goes on for about two weeks, and
different club members staff the exhibit every day, taking care of watering,
answering questions, etc. I'm joining this month, so I'm looking forward to taking
part in this next September.
Their website has pictures from the exhibitions in 2000 and 2001:
http://www.yamakibonsai.org/exhibitions.htm
This is a high-visibility exhibit in the area, and apparently it draws a number of
people. It's well-done, and for the most part the trees that were on exhibit this
year were great. The exhibit didn't have a tokonoma set up, but the trees were
displayed very nicely, with neutral backgrounds, and weren't crowded. In fact, the
backdrops were set up so that many of the trees were relatively isolated from one
another, and this allowed for a person to view an individual tree without
distraction from another. There were several suiseki on display as well.
This problem doesn't surprise me. It goes back to the viewpoint expressed by Mr.
Pakenham that we hashed over in the thread awhile back, that bonsai is a matter of
torturing trees, not an art at all. (my extrapolation).
I guess what I'm saying is that in order to find venues for public exhibitions, it
might be best to go where we're welcome--arboretums, for instance, if you're
fortunate enough to have one nearby. What about seeing if there is someone with a
home that has a large yard and garden, large enough to accomodate some parking, and
a nice garden area to display trees? How about a local park? Our club in Maine
had an exhibition last year at the local summer theater. It went all day. The
theater did most of the publicity. We had about 30 trees on display, had several
people working on their own trees during the day, and had a couple of demos. This
year the club had a show at a local garden center, and like the previous one they
gave out over 100 brochures and picked up a few new people for the club.
If you don't have a club in your area, do something on your own. This spring I'm
doing a talk and demo, with a half dozen or so trees on display, for an evening
program at the loccal library which has an active program of talks on various
subjects. I made the offer, and they were delighted to have the offer.
I wouldn't take rejection by a single person in this arts society to mean that the
arts society there as a whole isn't interested, or for that matter, that people in
the arts community as a whole aren't interested. Our generous reception by the
theater community in Monmouth shows that. Exposure is what we need to work on. Put
on the exhibits where you can. Invite people from the local arts society to come.
Do you absolute best job, and display only your best trees. Exposure and education
is the mission here!
>
> Kind regards,
> Andy Rutledge
> zone 8, Texas
>
Craig Cowing
Blooming Grove NY
Zone 5b/6a
Carl L Rosner
example: the Brandywine Museum, { which houses the works of Newel
Converse Wyeth (my childhood hero), Andrew Wyeth, and James (Jamie)
Wyeth and many more well known artists}, holds a Bonsai show at the
front entrance to the museum every spring. It is hosted by the
Brandywine Bonsai Society. I joined that club due to the exhibition.
Unfortunately, It was a little tough for me to drive four hours ropund
trip from my home to their meeting place.
I do remember it was a show that was well attended. I am sure that each
similar show through out the country lowers the "art" barrier just a
little more.
Unfortunately, Educating the general public to any form of art is
difficult these days. I don't think the culture of art is even being
taught in grade schools. They stopped classes in art, when my daughters
(who are now in their 40's ) attended grade school. Sadly, we are living
in an era, which is moving too fast and instant gratification takes too
long!
Carl L. Rosner
Andy Rutledge
From: "Nigel Kent" <n.k...@CHELLO.NL>
> G'day all,
> 'ART' wrong, 'SKILL' correct, language interpretation abused.
Wha...?
---------
> The debate is foolish,
---------
I've always loved foolish endeavors...
---------
> grow your bonsai with timely, acquired skill, enjoy
> the results, which should, in my opinion be reward enough.
> Greetings from Amsterdam....Nigel
----------
One might even say...
'SKILL' wrong, 'GARDENING' correct, language interpretation abused.
Grow your bonsai with water and sunlight and forget skill, enjoy
the resutls, which should, in my opinion be reward enough.
One might also say...
This is not a matter of "language inerpretation." Rather it is a matter of
humankind's love of art and while growing trees in pots doesn't have to be
art, it certainly is on many levels when approached in that manner. Skill
is probably 85% of what is necessary for "good" bonsai pursuit of whatever
form, but it ain't the end-all-be-all of anything.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
********************************************************************************
Craig Cowing
> <snip>
> I joined that club due to the exhibition. Unfortunately, It was a
> little tough for me to drive four hours ropund trip from my home to
> their meeting place.
>
That's the problem I have. Stamford, CT, where Yama Ki meets, is about
1 3/4 hours from here, so it's basically 3.5 hours on the road, plus a
$3 toll at the TZ bridge. But, I'm willing to make the trip because I
have the feeling I'll learn something, and maybe even be able to
contribute something, even if it's nothing else than a fresh viewpoint.
At first blush the club is a bit intimidating, though--many of them
studied with Yuji Yoshimira, and have been doing bonsai since the 70's.
>
> I do remember it was a show that was well attended. I am sure that
> each similar show through out the country lowers the "art" barrier
> just a little more.
>
Of course, it's a gradual thing. It's a wonderful thing to expose
somebody to real bonsai for the first time, and witness the scales
falling from their eyes.
>
> Unfortunately, Educating the general public to any form of art is
> difficult these days. I don't think the culture of art is even being
> taught in grade schools. They stopped classes in art, when my
> daughters (who are now in their 40's ) attended grade school.
That depends on where you are. In our school district, art is very
important.
> Sadly, we are living in an era, which is moving too fast and instant
> gratification takes too long!
>
Yes, but when people are introduced to a different view, that things of
value are not acquired overnight, but only over time, then it can change
their whole perspective. I have a feeling that this is what attracts
people to bonsai (real bonsai) in the first place--the feeling of
timelessness, even eternity, that they see in a well-executed design.
>
> Carl L. Rosner
>
>
>
Evangelization is tough work, but it has to be done in order to pass
this art onto the next generation. Who is going to take care of our
trees when we're pushing up daisies?
Craig Cowing
Blooming Grove NY
Zone 5b/6a
Jim Lewis
>
> > <snip>
> >
> > Sam,
> >
> > Your story is indicative of what we who value bonsai as art
are up against
> > in this country. Bonsai is a Fine Art, but it is not
percieved as such
> > because - probably because - most Americans never see
artistic bonsai,
> > either artfully composed trees or the artistic display of
bonsai in
> > tokonoma.
>
snip
> The Yama Ki Bonsai Society, which meets in Stamford, CT but has
a lot of people
> from the NYC area, has an exhibition every year at the New York
Botanical Garden.
> This has been going on for somewhere around 20 years. There is
a rotunda at the
> center of what I guess is the main building. It goes on for
about two weeks, and
> different club members staff the exhibit every day, taking care
of watering,
> answering questions, etc. I'm joining this month, so I'm
looking forward to taking
> part in this next September.
But that's still in a BOTANICAL garden. Our club's small yearly
exhibit is in the sculpture garden of our local private art
museum. But I still don't think people get the message.
Not that I think it matters.
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL -"Man did not
weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he
does to the web, he does to himself." another philosophical gem
attributed to Chief Seattle.
Craig Cowing
>
> > The Yama Ki Bonsai Society, which meets in Stamford, CT but has
> a lot of people
> > from the NYC area, has an exhibition every year at the New York
> Botanical Garden.
> <snip>
> But that's still in a BOTANICAL garden.
So? What does it matter? People are still seeing good bonsai, in a beautiful
setting, I might add.
> Our club's small yearly
> exhibit is in the sculpture garden of our local private art
> museum.
That's good. Did it take much icebreaking to get to that point, or did someone
have an inside track?
> But I still don't think people get the message.
>
> Not that I think it matters.
>
I think they get the message. The message is that it isn't easy, it takes time,
and yes you can do it. One of the things that's interesting about the Yama Ki
exhibit is that one of the members always does a step-by-step display showing how a
$9.95 procumbens juniper can become a nice cascading bonsai. He has about five or
so plants, beginning with one right out of Home Depot's nursery, and ending with a
bonsai in a cascade pot. Each tree is in a different stage of training. It takes
some of the mystery out of the whole thing.
>
> Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL -"Man did not
> weave the web of life; he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he
> does to the web, he does to himself." another philosophical gem
> attributed to Chief Seattle.
>
I guess I don't need some artist's approval in order to consider bonsai art. If a
snobbish arts society can't see it, then you try to educate them. After a certain
amount of effort, to h*ll with them. It becomes their problem, not yours. Because
somebody else doesn't see it as art, it doesn't mean it isn't.
We need to remember that in the US, or anywhere else outside of Asia, we haven't
been doing this for centuries. 60 years +/- isn't a long time, and I suspect it
takes longer than that for something to become a recognized art form. After all,
wasn't bonsai in Japan just something that people did for recreation until contact
with the West elevated it to an art form?
Craig Cowing
Blooming Grove NY
Zone 5b/6a
********************************************************************************
Andy Rutledge
From: "Craig Cowing" <cco...@FRONTIERNET.NET>
<snip>
> We need to remember that in the US, or anywhere else outside of Asia, we
haven't
> been doing this for centuries. 60 years +/- isn't a long time, and I
suspect it
> takes longer than that for something to become a recognized art form.
After all,
> wasn't bonsai in Japan just something that people did for recreation until
contact
> with the West elevated it to an art form?
> Craig Cowing
No. What is hard for many Americans to understand is that the arts are, in
most of the world, simple elements of the culture. America has no culture
in this sense and so the "Arts" are conceived to be something conspicuous -
out of the ordinary - separate from everyday culture. This is unfortunate,
impossible to remedy and at the heart of why our art is not widely thought
to be so in the U.S..
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
********************************************************************************
Scott
been mentioned already but that picture makes the tree look dead, so now
it can be considered "Art" because it is a finished product. Static,
unchanging piece of artistic expression. (unless it's a larch in fall
color).
I've got a few of those, does that make me an artist? Or do I have to
be paid for my work before I'm considered an artist?
Scott
Andy Rutledge
not look brown at all in-person. It is quite obviously a yew in winter
coloring, but it is green with orange highlights - as they tend to have.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
----------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott" <orc...@CHARTER.NET>
> I missed the discussion about this art mag. last week so this may of
> been mentioned already but that picture makes the tree look dead, so now
> it can be considered "Art" because it is a finished product. Static,
> unchanging piece of artistic expression. (unless it's a larch in fall
> color).
> I've got a few of those, does that make me an artist? Or do I have to
> be paid for my work before I'm considered an artist?
> Scott
Alan Walker
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
Andy Rutledge
From: "Alan Walker" <awbo...@IAMERICA.NET>
> Andy: Where can one find a copy of the complete NBA judging criteria in
English?
> Alan Walker
Felix Laughlin is working on it right now, both the acquisition and the
translation, and I'll let you know when there is anything in-hand. If,
however, you have any contact in the NBA, I'd encourage you to give it a try
yourself as well. It would be good for the NBA to get a sense of the
interest we have here to take some significant steps toward creating a
healthier bonsai environment in our country and community.
Elize-Marie Mann
that come with it and couldn`t care less how other people would prefer to
call it.
That, I think is entirely their problem not mine.
( one thing is sure,on this moment we are in Holland becoming a period of
frost which means a lot of dragging around with trees and very cold fingers,
no artistic feelings there for the moment)
Just enjoy your trees and those of others and there is so much to see,
learn, share and enjoy, we are so wealthy having all that!!
Keep them small,
elize
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge" <ibo...@EARTHLINK.NET>
To: <BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [IBC] Educating Art People?
Lynn Boyd
> << it was painfully obvious that once she realized that I was talking
about
> plants, there was absolutely no further interest on her part. >>
>----------------
Sam,
The mention of bridging the gap between bonsai as art with the
present art conventional thoughts in many of our towns is one that has come
up before and the most apparent viewpoint was that we should through our
bonsai clubs manage exhibits in whatever situation we can contrive so that
the public does become aware. The best quality exhibits must be planned
for.
Your confrontation you wrote of appeared in my email just when I was
reading a considerably important piece of material from an advertising
agency of great respect describing a deep penetration they made into "how to
advertise art events" in their large city in the east so as to draw people
into these events. The same people tend to continually appear, but the drive
was to find a way to grasp those without the habit. They had to find by
experiment what would draw people. They used visual methods to find
results - such as metaphoric contents to tie art to many activities in
life - sports for example.
So many activities are "transformations" in our lives - transforming us for
moments into great athletes, great painters, great dancers, and these
relationships can be evoked in ads that connect the event to this
transformation - of course it is subliminal, but it does work.
Now the point is that if a bonsai club shows it trees in many areas the
transfer of a same sort will occur on some scale. People seeing beautiful
trees are always (hm-always? I think so) drawn to them and whether they envy
the owner the beauty of the tree, wonder about the grower who made this
beautiful thing, or see it as a anthropomorphic object there is a bit of
transformation happens. Catch them off guard like this a few times and they
become "knowledgeable" (in their mind they accept the transformation) and
in time become interested. They recognize a "new" contact/transformation
(not literally, of course) and relate to it.
I don't recall your mentioning a club when we met ( btw,a great pleasure
to me ;), but if there is a club you could encourage them to produce trees
suitable for display - and get the club to study some display tactics - the
list has experienced people in that area. GO for this! Even if it is in a
store window, at a bazaar selling crafts, a church get-together, garden
shows, exhibits, - wherever you can find a space. You will gradually
accumulate members.
You already bridged a gap by approaching the woman and asking - I am
quite proud when someone has the courage to do this. She will NOT forget
that - and in time will feel a little ashamed. You must not feel
taken-aback by that approach you made, but you must understand the
limitations of most people in an art scene. If advertisers ,of the merit
of the one, I just talked with has to spend thousands to seek ways to get
truly persuasive material - imagine what we have to face. BTW, this agency
is hired by the managers of a huge estate deposit of funds to back the arts
events for the city. They went as far as studying the recent brain scan
results for reactions to various visions. Now, imagine the art that hits the
TV screens in ads and know that is the art most commonly viewed by the
public. Ouch! This agency wants to do better with better - they have a
manager who is an asian art fancier - and a man conscious of taste and
development of it. The fund supporting the ads is millions!
What a job you have ahead of you - or anyone who wants to persuasivly
teach an art. It is a mission of love, I am convinced. And we do with so
little.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Do not accept negativity - dig
in!!
Best of wishes,
Lynn
Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA
Andy Rutledge
From: "Lynn Boyd" <lynn...@EARTHLINK.NET>
<big snip of good stuff>
> What a job you have ahead of you - or anyone who wants to persuasivly
> teach an art. It is a mission of love, I am convinced. And we do with so
> little.
> Thank you for sharing your experience. Do not accept negativity -
dig
> in!!
> Best of wishes,
> Lynn
Yes! Teaching is probably the world's greatest expression of love (surely
there are greater degrees of love, but few if any greater expressions).
Teachers are also probably the world's most underpaid individuals, while
having the world's greatest responsibility.
It should be no great surprise that teaching is one of the most difficult
endeavors.
Great advice BTW, Lynn.
Kind regards,
Andy