ahem,. respectful cough, Re: So What Does a "Tree" Look Like?
Edzard Teubert
Peter and Khaimraj,
--- in a fashion both of your comments have merit, dependant upon the
perspective...
please elaborate,.. which amatuers? are the literati? what period?
From Chuang Shen, Hong Kong University, "An Analytic Study of a 14th
Century Landscape and Its Later Copies", datum unknown, speaking on the
handscroll "Dwelling in the Fu-ch'un Mountains" completed in 1350 by Huang
Kung-wang (1269-1354) wrote,...
"In one of his collected notes, Tung Ch'i-ch'ang (1555-1636), the renowned
literati artist and the most influential art critic of his time, once
wrote:"
[to establish that Literati appeared at different periods of time in
Chinese history,... what follows shows that Chinese art is a copied visual
transmission, as presented by the Mustard Seed Manual,... with,... Max
Loehr quotes to clarify... edzard]
[note, fall of the Ming Dynasty,.. 17Century.]
The Mustard Seed Garden Manual appeared Part the First, 1679 and states,..
"Other material borrowed by the Manual ranges from Hseih Ho's work of the
beginning of the VI century to the opinions of the Ming critics. It should
be explained that it is an accepted practice in Chinese writing and
compilations to incorporate phrases, sentences and long passages without
identifying sources, for such borrowings are considered to be in the
service of tradition-- serving to transmit it and in transmitting to
sustain and strengthen it." page xiii
[Why is this important? borrowing in the service of 'tradition', not
originality,.. or art... to Forums decree that art be original...]
on Art { page 192, Max Loehr,.... " Every original work, especially of
landscape painting, presents a theory after all, based on some new insight
and knowledge in the realm of the visual. To theorize, 'theorein', is to
contemplate. Style for that matter, served as a tool, indicating advances
in the conquest of the visual."}
following passages also from Max Loehr, The Journal of Asian Studies,
Volume XXIII, Number 2 February 1964,..
'Some Fundamental Issues in the History of Chinese Painting'
page192
" This is its [Sung Painting] basic characterization, making it altogether
distinct from what follows upon Sung, namely a subjective, introspective,
expressionistic, or intellectualized art that was no longer concerned with
the image of nature or external reality. A searching for a new art form can
be observed in some works of the late thirteenth century, and within a few
decades, around 1300, the meaning of art changed profoundly. On the other
hand, looking back to pre-Sung times, we find an uninterrupted tradition of
representation going back in time as far as the Six Dynasties and Han."
[on to say,... most important this, I think,....]
"Chinese painting thus contemplated itself, became itself art-history. As
a consequence, it was no longer painting pure and simple but a kind of
humanistic discipline, an art blended with learning; it was painting about
painting, allusive, commentatorial, and increasingly abstract because its
content is thought. This art form -- half painting, half historiology --
producing works which, unoriginal as they are in themes, technique, and
styles, might well have remained historically pointless exercises, indeed
depended on the thought, or wit, or whim such as manifested itself in
personal variations or transformations of typical pictorial structures of
ancient styles."
[much as bonsai, no? duplication upon duplication]
"These personal and sophisticated graphic commentaries required learning
and trained intellects. It was an art form beyond the competence of the
ordinary painter, who simply was not equipped to contribute much when it
came to ideas, intellectual daring, and aesthetic restraint"
[so, ordinary painters are part painting/copywork, and part historiology]
{bonsai artists?} & { Walter Pall posts re: craft = Kraft, german,
strength: etymology, also 'able to do'. Art, ..as above, "new insight or
knowledge"}, et}
[back to the Mustard Seed....]
"The great creative periods of Chinese painting, the pre-T'ang and
T'ang-Sung, were past; the acedemic spirit of the Ming period had had its
day, and," ,... snip... "On the other hand it [Mustard Seed Man.] achieves
a summing up that represents a reaffirmation of the standards established
in the great periods of painting; and in detailing the principles and the
basic steps of technique ... snip"
[therefore catalogues repititous artforms or techniques...]
[back to Max Loehr:]
"The non intellectual painter of the Ming period, never fully at home in
the intellectualized air of the great Yuan masters and their Ming
Followers, was hopelessly out of step with all that counted historically.
The ascendancy of the amateur painter, on the other hand, was due, not to
his amateurishness or purposeful neglect of skill, but to his
intellectuality."
[reflecting on Peter Aradi's comment,..
> ALL LITERATI painters in China were AMATEURS. <
the gist is sound, innovation, art, came mostly from amateurs.... but were
they Literati???
Khaimraj in turn, seems to make a distinction between amateur painters and
the intellectualized painters in terms of the Yuan masters, whose
predessecors were also amateurs, who through their intellect became
Literati.]
on the subject,...Literati...
Robert J. Maeda, ARS Orientalis VIII, "The Chao Ta-Nien Tradition", page
244,
" for all the Literati tendencies exhibited by Chao Ta-nien {speculated
datum, 1068-1101, et} and the attention paid him by later 'wen-jen hua'
advocates, one might conclude that he was a charter member of the late
Northern Sung group of gentlemen painters. But this does not seem to be the
case. While he helped revive T'ang painting he did not quite measure up to
its highest standards in the eyes of critics, even Tung Ch'i-ch'amg. Among
painters of nobility, Chao Ta-nien was most notable. Yet, despite his fame,
Chao was not taken seriously enough, apparently, to be a full-fledged
wen-jen painter; an indication perhaps, that aristocrats were considered
dabblers in painting."
so which Amateurs, which Literati, what Period???
just a thought or two.. while,... :), both of you are exceptionally
knowledgeable on the subject, Khaimraj by birthright, heritage and artistic
training; Peter by _noteable historical research and experience...... grin,
birth unknown....
perhaps you're both right......
[now where was that other quote,... "when two lions ...]
edzard,
now going through papers on desk again.... and threatening to post quotes
from "The Transmission of Chinese Idealist Painting to Japan", Joan
Stanley-Baker, Michigan Papers in Japanese Studies,....
etc.etc.
-- Edzard Teubert
Millarville, Alberta
Canada
----------
>From: Peter Aradi <par...@IONET.NET>
>To: BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>Subject: Re: So What Does a "Tree" Look Like?
>Date: Wed, Nov 29, 2000, 12:25 PM
>
> Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:
>>
>> The Mustard Seed Garden book was a booklet for amateur painters
>> and I am not sure if it is in any way connected to the Literati of China.
>> I have usually seen the book spoken of in negative terms.
>> [ I do have a copy ]
>>
>
> Khaimraj:
>
> Yes, the Mustard Seed Garden book was for amateurs. ALL LITERATI
> painters in China were AMATEURS. They were professional
> scholar/officials
> who (supposedly) painted for relaxation and pleasure. The usual
> past time of the literati were centered on calligraphy, painting, and
> writing poetry. You may add music and perhaps some serious drinking. :-)
> Finally, only the literati could afford and seriously entertain the
> idea of painting, consequently the book was specifically targeted at
> the literati. I suggest you reread the text and it will become clear
> that
> the language is aimed at a highly educated reader.
>
> As for negative comments, you won't find them in any serious
> publications
> dealing with Chinese art. (Serious means scholarly or academic in this
> context.)
>
> Cheers.
>
>
> Peter Aradi
> Tulsa, Oklahoma
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