[IBC] Suiseki help.
Manuel A Chavez
Manny
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Peter Aradi
You can get a VERY large bag of sandblasting sand
for less than $5 at the Home Depot. It is more than
adequate for your first suiban.
I have a small bag of sand from Japan, cost in relative
terms more than ten times as much; yet, I can't
tell the difference.
Good luck with the exhibit.
Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Craig Cowing
> Manny:
>
> You can get a VERY large bag of sandblasting sand
> for less than $5 at the Home Depot. It is more than
> adequate for your first suiban.
>
> I have a small bag of sand from Japan, cost in relative
> terms more than ten times as much; yet, I can't
> tell the difference.
>
> Good luck with the exhibit.
>
> Peter Aradi
> Tulsa, Oklahoma
>
>
I've used the fines that I sifted out from Turface. Particles are more or less
uniform in size and color.
Craig Cowing
Blooming Grove NY
Zone 5b+
Manuel A Chavez
looking for a source of "sand for my soil., Craig the idea of using the
sifted fines from Turface in the suiban is great since I recently purchased
a 50lb bag to use for my soil mixes. Thanks for the information gentleman.
Manny
Nigel Kent
There is a sand called 'Silver sand', [don't know what it is used for,
aquaria perhaps] over here in the Netherlands and perhaps elsewhere in
Europe, usually to be found in pet shops.
This sand is extremely fine and rather white, and can be combed into a
sea-line or whatever you set your sight at, and having done that then
lightly spray with ordinary water, kinda fixes it in place certainly long
enough for any exhibition.
Greetings from Amsterdam....Nigel
Jim Lewis
sizes?
Yes, but you have to go to a sand-blasting company to find the
larger sizes and put up with their odd looks when you tell them
how little you want from their massive stockpiles.
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Who finds
the larger-sized swimming pool filter sand to be OK for his pots
(though even this is getting harder to find in this day and age
of fiberglass filters :-( ).
Dale Cochoy
> Peter Aradi wrote:
> > Manny:
> > You can get a VERY large bag of sandblasting sand
> > for less than $5 at the Home Depot. It is more than
> > adequate for your first suiban.
> > I have a small bag of sand from Japan, cost in relative
> > terms more than ten times as much; yet, I can't
> > tell the difference.
> > Good luck with the exhibit.
> > Peter Aradi
I'm curious about this Peter. WHY did you buy it knowing that? Was it
purely the "Stone Hype" going around now or some other reason? I'm not
trying to be smart here, but I am soooo intriqued by this stone hype in the
last year. If we could just get it pointed back to bonsai we could possibly
increase some club/magazine/organization rolls. Is it easier to hype
something that you just buy and sit on a shelf without any care, or what? I
wonder if your average stone collector now ( who usually got into it
THROUGH bonsai interests) has a bonsai collection to match his
quality/expenditures of stone collection?
This scenerio is quite intriguing to me . The Japanese seem to have honed
this to a fine art.
BTW, thanks again for the pottery translations.
Dale
Andy Rutledge
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Cochoy" <dalec...@PRODIGY.NET>
> ...I am soooo intriqued by this stone hype in the
> last year. If we could just get it pointed back to bonsai we could
possibly
> increase some club/magazine/organization rolls. Is it easier to hype
> something that you just buy and sit on a shelf without any care, or what?
I
> wonder if your average stone collector now ( who usually got into it
> THROUGH bonsai interests) has a bonsai collection to match his
> quality/expenditures of stone collection?
> This scenerio is quite intriguing to me . The Japanese seem to have honed
> this to a fine art.
------------------------
I may have misinterpreted your thrust here, but if you're referring to the
hype that the Japanese have honed to a fine art, I beg to differ. Rather,
it is Westerners that has honed the art of hyping things Japanese into a
fine art. It is something to which many seem very open and attracted.
We're most of us familiar with the idea that in bonsai, Japanese stuff
(tools, accessories, etc...) is better than any other (!...with the "idea"
that it is. I'm not arguing one way or the other). Likewise, in the
Japanese martial arts for instance, it is a given that most (practitioners
and non-practitioners) will perceive Japanese instructors to be better,
those who have trained under Japanese instructors to be better, etc... In
all of these cases, it is not the Japanese who are responsible for the hype
nor the perception. It is Western individuals' openness and attraction to
these ideas that is responsible.
Then again, I may have misunderstood your thrust. Apologies if that is the
case.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
Peter Aradi
> > > I have a small bag of sand from Japan, cost in relative
> > > terms more than ten times as much; yet, I can't
> > > tell the difference.
I did not buy it, was a present. (The buyer left the price tag on!)
Regarding the "stone hype" in the U.S.:
Yes there is an increased awareness and just as importantly, a new
market for stones. My particular involvement with stones dates back
a decade and in a way my interest in suiseki is as strong as in bonsai.
Jim Hayes and his publication, "Waiting to be Discovered," the magazine
of the now defunct North American Viewing Stone Society, did a lot
to popularize suiseki. So did the publication of books by Felix Rivera
and Melba Tucker. The republication of Covello and Yoshimura's seminal
book, the first in English on the subject, also contributed to the
proliferation
of interest in suiseki.
However, the "stone hype" as you call it, started in my opinion with the
organization of Richard Rosenblum's exhibit of Chinese scholar's rocks.
The venues of the exhibit, Asia Society of New York, Harvard University,
Seattle Art Museum, Phoenix Art Museum, Virginia Art Museum, Museums
in Zurich, Switzerland, and Berlin, Germany, helped introduce a new group,
serious art lovers and appreciators, to stones. The scholarly catalog of the
exhibit, largely written by academics associated with Harvard University,
added another dimension: credibility and prestige.
The follow up was predictable. Additional books by Willien Benz, Richard
Rosenblum and Kemin Hu appeared. And perhaps most importantly, a
market was created by importers of stones from China, by major auction
houses and sellers on ebay. Seems to me every major bonsai show or
convention lately have several stone vendors, selling anything from
mislabeled
and modified cheap stones from China on the low end, to outragesly over
priced
stones from Japan, and everything in between. A good place to monitor the
market is on ebay where ridiculous quality stones are offered at inflated
prices
along with some reasonably priced and authenticated stones. Buyer beware,
but good buys can be had for the serious shopper.
How long will this "stone hype" last? As long as someone can make a few $
out
of it.
Dale, you as a vendor, should know how fickle the market is. Look what
happened and happening in the domestic bonsai pot market.
As for my personal stone collection, my interest is aesthetic, not
financial.
I don't have enough money the buy the "real high $ stuff."
I let my kids worry about their value after I am gone.
Cheers.
Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Chris Cochrane
> ... If we could just get it (the STONE HYPE) pointed back to bonsai
> we could possibly increase some club/magazine/organization rolls.
increasing interest in Chinese artistic potted tree, interest in literati
arts et al. are enriching bonsai and its clubs, magazines and organizations.
It is not all horticulture and potting, yet even the horticultural and
potting knowledged is enriched by understanding connections and artistry
related to bonsai/suiseki culture.
> The Japanese seem to have honed this to a fine art.
If that is meant as a dig at Japanese vendors, it is lowly slung and
misdirected. Increasing Western enthusiasm for suiseki and related bonsai
arts as well as separate viewing stone arts is growing by leaps and bounds
with Western enthuisiasts leading the charge. I'd say that suiseki
enthusiasts in Japan would be quite happy for their art form to remain
pursued substantially in Japan and certainly they haven't clamored to
elucidate our knowledge of their understanding. They have encouraged other
countries to pursue viewing stone collecting and offered their standard as
one worthy of emulation. Its historical precedents are intriguing, and we
do well to learn what we can... sometimes in emulation and at other times
intentionally distinct from the Japanese model.
Best wishes,
Chris... C. Cochrane, sas...@erols.com, Richmond VA USA
Dale Cochoy
From: "Andy Rutledge" <ibo...@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: [IBC] Suiseki help., sand
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dale Cochoy" <dalec...@PRODIGY.NET>
> > ...I am soooo intriqued by this stone hype in the
> > last year. > > This scenerio is quite intriguing to me . The Japanese
seem to have honed
> > this to a fine art.
> ------------------------
>
> I may have misinterpreted your thrust here, but if you're referring to the
> hype that the Japanese have honed to a fine art, I beg to differ> Then
again, I may have misunderstood your thrust. Apologies if that is the
> case.
> Kind regards,
> Andy Rutledge
Andy,
Lots of snips above:
The "hype" I'm speaking of is the "telling us" that you must use this sand
picked by hand from this pile for your stone to look displayed proper, or
you must use this sphagnum moss on top of your satsuki azaleas, etc. That
seeming comes from the horses mouth so to speak. WE, as Americans, DO
seem to relish spreading it around and making it "fact" as your opinion
seems (to me) to state. I can surely agree with that.
Dale
Dale Cochoy
From: "Peter Aradi" <p.a...@COX.NET>
Subject: Re: [IBC] Suiseki help., sand
> > > > I have a small bag of sand from Japan, cost in relative
> > > > terms more than ten times as much; yet, I can't
> > > > tell the difference.
>
> I did not buy it, was a present. (The buyer left the price tag on!)
Ah Ha, a gift situation. I fully understand.
>
> Regarding the "stone hype" in the U.S.:
> Yes there is an increased awareness and just as importantly, a new
> market for stones. My particular involvement with stones dates back
> a decade and in a way my interest in suiseki is as strong as in bonsai.
>
> Jim Hayes and his publication, "Waiting to be Discovered," the magazine
> of the now defunct North American Viewing Stone Society, did a lot
> to popularize suiseki. So did the publication of books by Felix Rivera
> and Melba Tucker. The republication of Covello and Yoshimura's seminal
> book, the first in English on the subject, also contributed to the
> proliferation
> of interest in suiseki.
>
> However, the "stone hype" as you call it, started in my opinion with the
> organization of Richard Rosenblum's exhibit of Chinese scholar's rocks.
snips:
Yes, there does seem to have been oodles of stone exposure over the last
couple years. I wonder if the stone magazine would do better now if
re-introduced again. I would think so!
> How long will this "stone hype" last? As long as someone can make a few $
> out
> of it.
>
> Dale, you as a vendor, should know how fickle the market is. Look what
> happened and happening in the domestic bonsai pot market.
Oh yeah,
> As for my personal stone collection, my interest is aesthetic, not
> financial.
> I let my kids worry about their value after I am gone.
I can certainly empathize with that. I wonder about the disposition of my
fairly fine gun collection and my trees/pots someday. Someone will probably
get a GREAT deal on some bonsai someday! The guns....well that's a
different story!
Lynn Boyd
> purely the "Stone Hype" going around now or some other reason? I'm not
> trying to be smart here, but I am soooo intriqued by this stone hype in
the
> last year. If we could just get it pointed back to bonsai we could
possibly
> increase some club/magazine/organization rolls.
I really was surprised to read this, Dale. I think maybe that
people who come into bonsai as their "chosen" art perhaps are not aware of
Art first, and a category of it secondly. They really cannot be separated
very easily if either one is truly looked upon as an art. Rather like the
frequent co-existence in homes of paintings and sculpture. The difference
is that these last two are both created in the hands of the artist, and
with bonsai and suiseki, bonsai is, but the stone is not, but, it has
mental similarity in its imaginative presence since both trees and stones
are such strong "nature" symbols in the asian arts. We seem to almost have
an incapability in the west of relating the symbolic very keenly.
You took on ceramics So successfully and involve your hands in that
art as you do in bonsai, understandably you favor that creative act. A lot
of people do. But, those who see Art in a broad spectrum that includes the
symbolic and the relationship of trees and stones are weird in another way
?? :)
Lynn
Dale Cochoy
question on hype. But, I can't say I didn't expect this after the lesson on
stone history.
I'm still interested in our responses to hype. Maybe I should ask it about
some other subject, say movies. I think the Austin Powers movies are
terrible trash, but I see every hour ( at least) on every channel an add for
the 3rd one. How ( and WHY) will this hype make them good enough to rake in
MILLIONS of dollars on opening weekend. What makes us get caught up in
hype? , the "correct" sphagnum moss to use, or otherwise?
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd" <lynn...@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: [IBC] Suiseki help., sand
Jim Lewis
ask it about
> some other subject, say movies. I think the Austin Powers
movies are
> terrible trash, but I see every hour ( at least) on every
channel an add for
> the 3rd one. How ( and WHY) will this hype make them good
enough to rake in
> MILLIONS of dollars on opening weekend. What makes us get
caught up in
> hype? , the "correct" sphagnum moss to use, or otherwise?
That's why PR people rack in such huge salaries; I agree on the
Powers films. They rank just below (or at least with) the Nutty
Professor films (of which I took the hype and saw the first one
(SHUDDER) and walked out of.
But my son in law, otherwise a very nice and extremely smart
person, thinks Austin Powers is a hoot and can't understand how I
can think it's so ugly and demeaning in both thought and action.
It is part of the great movement to desensitization that's going
on today, and which is perhaps necessary as the world grows ever
more crowded. Thank goodness _I_ won't be around to see the
global megalopolis, though my grandchildren may well be.
As for stones, I'm not sure that "hype" is the right term for
their current vogue. They're just kind of "in" these days. I
like a nice stone (in its place ;-) on an attractive suiban or
pretty diaza, but still object to:
1. Page after page being devoted to them in a BONSAI magazine
(especially IDENTICAL stories in the two association journals as
we had this month!!! YUK!) and
2. People insisting that the stones (found objects) are "art."
(But we've beaten that discussion into the ground on the viewing
stones list and don't need to repeat it here. Please!)
There's a certain panache' associated with, or distinction
bestowed upon, being able to discuss stones intelligently (which
I, probably, will never attain ;-).
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - The four
universal laws of ecology: 1. Everything is connected to
everything else. 2. Everything must go somewhere. 3. Nature
knows best. 4. There is no such thing as a free lunch. - Barry
Commoner
Lynn Boyd
> Well Lynn, I read your note twice and still don't see how it goes with my
> question on hype. But, I can't say I didn't expect this after the lesson
on
> stone history.
> I'm still interested in our responses to hype.
Hi Dale,
You are right about the mounting interest in information on stones, I
think. I believe the word "hype" is not very clear to me. If, as I now
understand you, that it has to do with the information that is growing in
amount and differing viewpoints I have somewhat the same problem of
frustration about it that you, and others whom I hear from, are having.
But, I know its nature is expansion.
I have to take this outlook because I have lived and worked with it so
long -
and it does not really seem "hype." I do not like the context of hype, but
understand the context of "changing forms." That is what is taking place.
We have been through it in bonsai - seeing styles burst into argument for
change and growth. We have also been through the ceramics growth
substantially with good growth in its form of art related to bonsai, a real
event. Now it is the stone. It is undergoing a form of recognition
similarly.
Art is an endeavor, of some sort, in every human's life - unless they are
starving, ill or incapable. It cannot help but be an expression of the
individual and that one life. Statements of rules are great for guidance to
those who can take the time and can apply them to "fit" with the social
crowd. But there is always the individual whose emotional strength,
reaction and integrity, abides in their own life and that cannot help but be
original at times. These few can change the history of art when their
expression expresses some truth about our lives - which differ from the
historic outlook in some way. And, we do not hear of that in near-history
often, but we do know that it has always happened.
I like to follow the Historic enough to feel a genuine continuity in the
art - I mean genuine - but I do not want to be deprived of my own life exper
iences and expression.I want to recognize what is the "real" continuity
factors and what is NOT. We get a lot of not.
I have to differentiate what is "fact' from what is "expression" in a life
(or several lives) and choose which is continuity in an art form and what is
personal behavior and belief.
What you are calling "hype" I think is your recognition of this
difference, and I agree that it exists in quantity now. I think it will
settle down. I know there are people working on the "facts" that contribute
to the historic continuity and I wish those who are troubled by the personal
"expressions" would recognize them as something to be appreciated, but not
define their own lives.
For facts:
I like a Time Line that gives me the progress of the art - tells me how
and where and when certain events may have contributed to somewhat permanent
behavior and established the rituals that surround the art. The Time Line
is "facts" from history that are recorded (not even itself an absolute).
And the expressions we hear spoken and written for now - well, they are our
fellow artists in the same period of growth as we are. Some of them are
passionate - and we know what that does to stability, But they are really
the ones that carry the continuous thread forward in history. Passion is a
power when it begins exploiting art - and we are getting a good sniff is
all - but nothing much happens without it. Remember our bonsai arguments on
style!
I hope to see a good Time Line presented soon on a website that will
put more substance into the stone art and give it a back bone consisting of
events and expressions that show its symbolic Nature-loving tendencies that
correspond so well with bonsai.
I knew you had stones - from a couple years ago - but I failed to
understand what "hype" meant to you in this instance. I think we have to
accept it as something else - as we accepted the big argument re bonsai
awhile ago - a growing phase that climaxes and settles down. To me because
it has been my constant life work and interest to observe art it is
"objective" and not personal. (Usually, not always ;)
Lynn
Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA
Alan Walker
produce an effect without being taken literally, as: He was centuries old; She wept
gallons of tears.
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
and expression. I want to recognize what is the "real" continuity
Dale Cochoy
From: "Alan Walker" <awbo...@IAMERICA.NET>
To: <BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [IBC] Suiseki hyperbole
> FWIW: hype = hyperbole = an exaggeration or overstatement intended
to
> produce an effect without being taken literally, as: He was centuries old;
She wept
> gallons of tears.
> Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
> http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
FWIW#2
My 1974 Websters says HYPE: "a statement to promote sales."
As in "Use this sand with your suiseki if you want it to look right/good"
Well, also " a narcotics addict" but, that is another story!
Dale
Alan Walker
is backfiring. A lot of rigid and poorly explained rules are not likely to "promote
sales".================================
Dale Cochoy wrote:
Marty Haber
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [IBC] Suiseki help., sand
Hi Lynn,
Here's a definiton of hype you might want to think about: intrusion upon
privacy & exaggeration of facts to promote a product or service.
Marty