***Colin's book
Ron Martin
> many other bonsai books by bonsai "artists") there is not one
> photo of the author. In fact, the only human being I find in the
> book is one of his students doing slave labo(u)r (Page 118). ;-)
>
> Jim Lewis
Well the book is supposed to be about bonsai not Colin ;o)
Ron Martin
********************************************************************************
++++With deep sadness for those who lost family and friends ++++
********************************************************************************
>>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ <<--<<
To leave the list, send SIGNOFF BONSAI to: LIST...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Jim Lewis
many other bonsai books by bonsai "artists") there is not one
photo of the author. In fact, the only human being I find in the
book is one of his students doing slave labo(u)r (Page 118). ;-)
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Who is
devouring both words and pictures in the second time through.
Jim Lewis
> > I find it vaguely amusing that in Colin's new book (unlike so
> > many other bonsai books by bonsai "artists") there is not one
> > photo of the author. In fact, the only human being I find in
the
> > book is one of his students doing slave labo(u)r (Page 118).
;-)
> >
> > Jim Lewis
>
> Well the book is supposed to be about bonsai not Colin ;o)
>
> Ron Martin
>
I agree . . . but try telling that to Peter Chan or Amy Liang, or
. . . ;-)
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - He who sets
an apple tree will live to see it end. He who sets a pear tree,
sets it for a friend. - Anon.
Ron Martin
> >
> > Ron Martin
> >
>
> I agree . . . but try telling that to Peter Chan or Amy Liang, or
> . . . ;-)
>
> Jim Lewis
Maybe like Colin they should do books about bonsai. ;o)
Ron Martin
David J. Bockman
Yoshimura... oh the hubryis of such bonsai artists, to actually wish to be
seen in the books they pour their hearts and souls into, with the trees that
mean so much to them...
David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email: d...@bunabayashi.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club [mailto:BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf
Of Jim Lewis
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:01 PM
To: BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: ***Colin's book
>
> > I find it vaguely amusing that in Colin's new book (unlike so
> > many other bonsai books by bonsai "artists") there is not one
> > photo of the author. In fact, the only human being I find in
the
> > book is one of his students doing slave labo(u)r (Page 118).
;-)
> >
> > Jim Lewis
>
> Well the book is supposed to be about bonsai not Colin ;o)
>
> Ron Martin
>
I agree . . . but try telling that to Peter Chan or Amy Liang, or
. . . ;-)
********************************************************************************
Craig Cowing
<snip>
> The only place my picture will be posted is as a target on a dart board or
> maybe in the post office ( and not on a stamp either )
I hope not Ron, since you have to be dead for ten years before you get your picture
on a stamp.
Hey, that gives me an indea--how about we start a campaign to have a stamp honoring
the art of bonsai? The National Bonsai Foundation could select one of the North
American specimens from their collection. Whaddya say?
>
>
Craig Cowing
Monmouth ME
Zone 4b/5
By the time Mozart was my age he had been dead for eight years.
Ron Martin
your picture
> on a stamp.
>
> Hey, that gives me an indea--how about we start a campaign to have a stamp
honoring
> the art of bonsai? The National Bonsai Foundation could select one of the
North
> American specimens from their collection. Whaddya say?
>
> >
> >
>
> Craig Cowing
Sometimes I feel like I have been dead for at least 10 years.
The stamp idea is a good one but I don't even know where to start the drive.
Ron Martin
Alan Walker
quite a while, and this is an opportunity to give it another push. Among others, the
Potomac Bonsai Association in the DC area has had a sustained drive to get this. BCI
and ABS have also looked into the matter. As far as I know, the best we've ever
accomplished in the USA, so far, is a smattering of bonsai related cancellation stamps,
but no bonsai stamps.
One obstacle is the prevailing interpretation of USPS rules on stamp design.
Rule number 4 of the stamp selection criteria would seem to indicate that our best
chance of getting a bonsai stamp will be around the year 2026 which will be the 50th
anniversary of the founding of the Bonsai & Penjing Museum at our US National
Arboretum.
Complete details can be read at the USPS web site at:
http://new.usps.com/cgi-bin/uspsbv/scripts/content.jsp?D=27220
The 15 member Citizens' Stamp Advisory Committee (CSAC), whose members are appointed by
the Postmaster General, is charged with evaluating the merits of all stamp proposals.
Ideas for stamp subjects that meet the CSAC criteria may be addressed in writing to the
Citizens' Stamp Advisory Committee, c/o Stamp Development, U.S. Postal Service, 475
L'Enfant Plaza, SW, Room 5670, Washington, D.C. 20260-2437. Subjects should be
submitted at least three years in advance of the proposed date of issue to allow
sufficient time for consideration and for design and production, if the subject is
approved. No in-person appeals by stamp proponents are permitted. They further
advise, "Due to the demands of stamp design and reproduction requirements, it is our
policy not to review nor accept unsolicited artwork."
Following are the 12 major areas now guiding subject selection:
1. It is a general policy that U.S. postage stamps and stationery primarily will
feature
American or American-related subjects.
2. No living person shall be honored by portrayal on U.S. postage.
3. Commemorative stamps or postal stationery items honoring individuals usually will
be issued on or in conjunction with significant anniversaries of their birth, but no
postal item will be issued sooner than ten years after the individual's death. The only
exception to the ten-year rule is the issuance of stamps honoring deceased U.S.
presidents. They may be honored with a memorial stamp on the first birth
anniversary following death.
4. Events of historical significance shall be considered for commemoration only on
anniversaries in multiples of 50 years.
5. Only events, persons, and themes of widespread national appeal and significance
will be considered for commemoration. Events, persons or themes of local or
regional significance may be recognized by a philatelic or special postal
cancellation, which may be arranged through the local postmaster.
6. Stamps or stationery items shall not be issued to honor fraternal, political,
sectarian, or service/charitable organizations. Stamps or stationery shall not be
issued to promote or advertise commercial enterprises or products. Commercial
products or enterprises might be used to illustrate more general concepts related to
American culture.
7. Stamps or stationery items shall not be issued to honor cities, towns,
municipalities, counties, primary or secondary schools, hospitals, libraries, or
similar institutions. Due to the limitations placed on annual postal programs and the
vast number of such locales, organizations and institutions in existence, it would be
difficult to single out any one for commemoration.
8. Requests for observance of statehood anniversaries will be considered for
commemorative postage stamps only at intervals of 50 years from the date of the
state's first entry into the Union. Requests for observance of other state-related or
regional anniversaries will be considered only as subjects for postal stationery, and
again only at intervals of 50 years from the date of the event.
9. Stamps or stationery items shall not be issued to honor religious institutions or
individuals whose principal achievements are associated with religious undertakings
or beliefs.
10. Stamps or postal stationery items with added values, referred to as "semi-postals,"
shall be issued every two years in accordance with Public Law 106253. Semi-postals
will not be considered as part of the commemorative program and separate criteria will
apply.
11. Requests for commemoration of universities and other institutions of higher
education shall be considered only for stamped cards and only in connection with
the 200th anniversaries of their founding.
12. No stamp shall be considered for issuance if one treating the same subject has
been issued in the past 50 years. The only exceptions to this rule are traditional
themes such as national symbols and holidays.
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Cowing wrote:
<<SNIP>> Hey, that gives me an idea--how about we start a campaign to have a stamp
honoring the art of bonsai? The National Bonsai Foundation could select one of the
North American specimens from their collection. Whaddya say?
Craig Cowing
Monmouth ME
********************************************************************************
Helena Handbasket
:-ş
katie
:
: Hey, that gives me an indea--how about we start a campaign to have a
Dale Cochoy
From: Alan Walker <awbo...@IAMERICA.NET>
Subject: Bonsai Postage Stamp
> Rule number 4 of the stamp selection criteria would seem to indicate that
our best
> chance of getting a bonsai stamp will be around the year 2026 which will
be the 50th
> anniversary of the founding of the Bonsai & Penjing Museum at our US
National
> Arboretum.
2026 huh?
Well, I'm not sure I'll worry about collecting that one! :>)
........Along with worrying about the next ice age!
Ha!
Dale
Ron Martin
> ........Along with worrying about the next ice age!
> Ha!
> Dale
>
I kept asking myself why would the US Postal system make a stamp promoting
bonsai. Is an American past time. Is it something that a lot or just some of
us have a passion for.
We have taken a lot from other cultures and called it our own. Apple pie ,
Christmas , Halloween and yes even baseball (called rounders in England)
were all imported from other cultures.
All these were given a definite American flavor when we adopted them. Have
we done this with bonsai. Is there such a thing as American bonsai. Just
what makes bonsai worth a stamp.
Is there in fact an American bonsai culture. Or are we just in love with an
oriental one.
When you look at the great bonsai's do you see an American tree. Can a swamp
be called a forest. Has that lone tree in the middle of the prairie ever
been depicted.
Is the "oriental " bonsai the only way to do it. Can we style an American
tree without reference to the Japanese "rules" Do those rules hold merit
here. Can we do more than parrot the founders of bonsai.
Any thoughts. And please for a change try not to quote any ying or yang or
Zen or any other of the standard answers. Search deep and make a statement.
For a change I am asking a serious question.
Ron Martin
Andy Rutledge
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Martin" <r...@TOKONOMA.COM>
> Any thoughts. And please for a change try not to quote any ying or yang or
> Zen or any other of the standard answers. Search deep and make a
statement.
> For a change I am asking a serious question.
----------------------------
I'll make several.
----------------------------
> Is [it] an American past time.[?]
-----------
Yep. I and several other Americans I know are enthusiasts.
-----------
> Is it something that a lot or just some of
> us have a passion for.[?]
------------
A very few Americans.
------------
> Is there such a thing as American bonsai.[?]
------------
Well, since bonsai is a Japanese art, what do you mean?
------------
> Is there in fact an American bonsai culture. Or are we just in love with
an
> oriental one.[?]
------------
Does it matter? Again, refer to answer above.
------------
> When you look at the great bonsai's do you see an American tree.[?]
------------
If by "great bonsai" you mean the Kokufu-ten and Sakufu-ten winners, yes, in
every one of them. There is nothing Japanese or American about a tree.
------------
> Has that lone tree in the middle of the prairie ever been depicted.[?]
------------
Sure. Nick Lenz has. Several Europeans have as I recall, too. Probably
others. I'm even grooming one for that very image - a single tree on a
large slab. Would you call that "American" bonsai? Why?
------------
> Is the "oriental " bonsai the only way to do it.[?]
------------
What does this mean? Bonsai is a Japanese art. We bonsai enthusiasts
practice a Japanese art.
------------
> Can we style an American
> tree without reference to the Japanese "rules" [?]
------------
Not and make a good bonsai. We can, however, use Japanese rules to make a
good example of a tree found on Main street, U.S.A.. Again, what do you
mean?
------------
> Do those rules hold merit here.[?]
------------
Only with good examples of bonsai.
------------
> Can we do more than parrot the founders of bonsai. [?]
------------
Hopefully not until we understand what they do (did). After that point, I
sure hope "we" can. Parrot first, innovate later.
Ron, these are serious answers to your serious questions. They are not
meant to deride or inflame. I hope that you meant what you said - that your
questions were serious. Let's discuss! ;-)
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
Ron Martin
> meant to deride or inflame. I hope that you meant what you said - that
your
> questions were serious. Let's discuss! ;-)
>
> Kind regards,
> Andy Rutledge
> zone 8, Texas
Of course they were. Why else would I ask them. ???
I'll digest your comments and get back to you soon. Promise
Ron Martin
Jim Lewis
>I thought about this post most of the day.
>I kept asking myself why would the US Postal system make a stamp promoting
>bonsai. Is an American past time. Is it something that a lot or just some of
>us have a passion for.
Yeah. Me too. The answer is, of course not. The number of people who do
bonsai in the U.S. is probably smaller than the number who play cricket
here. Well, maybe not THAT small. ;-)
I suppose it is conceivable that the National Bonsai Collection could be
commmerated some day, but I certainly wouldn't put any money on it.
>We have taken a lot from other cultures and called it our own. Apple pie ,
>Christmas , Halloween and yes even baseball (called rounders in England)
>were all imported from other cultures.
>All these were given a definite American flavor when we adopted them. Have
>we done this with bonsai. Is there such a thing as American bonsai. Just
>what makes bonsai worth a stamp.
>Is there in fact an American bonsai culture. Or are we just in love with an
>oriental one.
>When you look at the great bonsai's do you see an American tree. Can a swamp
>be called a forest. Has that lone tree in the middle of the prairie ever
>been depicted.
>Is the "oriental " bonsai the only way to do it. Can we style an American
>tree without reference to the Japanese "rules" Do those rules hold merit
>here. Can we do more than parrot the founders of bonsai.
>
>Any thoughts. And please for a change try not to quote any ying or yang or
>Zen or any other of the standard answers. Search deep and make a statement.
>For a change I am asking a serious question.
This is close to the discussions we have had on developing a "western" or
"American" style bonsai. The consensus here seems to be, 'no.' _I_
certainly would like to see it, and as I've said before the flat-top bald
cypress and the southern (and western) live oak styles may come
close. Jerry Stowell suggested that the oval shape of the swamp maple
(Acer rubrum) could be developed into an American style, but I've seen no
sign of it developing.
I think if a North American style were to develop it would sit somewhere
between the Chinese and the Japanese -- showing a deal more imagination and
flair than Japanese trees (I KNOW that Peter disagrees with me here), but
probably a little more discipline than the Chinese.
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - He who sets an apple
tree will live to see it end. He who sets a pear tree, sets it for a
friend. - Anon.
********************************************************************************
Alan Walker
bonsai stamp. However, I have seen a lot of postage stamp designs through the
years. Many art forms from cartoons to Liechtenstein (oops, that's a bit redundant,
isn't it?!) as well as many common horticultural themes. Most recently we had a
series of floral stamps which I found to be poorly done and uninspiring.
Bonsai is around as an American artistic and horticultural pastime, albeit
rather small. In addition, the demand for stamps is not just for mailing. The post
office deliberately seeks to make stamps of interest to philatelists (stamp
collectors). I believe bonsai would be very much within the parameters of
horticultural theme stamps which have been struck for years and would be of interest
to the sizable philatelic community as well as those of us who are bonsai
aficionados. It would be of interest simply because it hasn't been done before.
Never underestimate the power of novelty.
By the way, Ron, don't be so quick to dismiss the yin and yang or zen
mindset. There's more there than you seem willing to yield credit.
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
------------------------------------------------------------
........Along with worrying about the next ice age!
Ha!
Dale
Sam Crowell
(snip)
>> Is there such a thing as American bonsai.[?]
>Well, since bonsai is a Japanese art, what do you mean?
>What does this mean? Bonsai is a Japanese art. We bonsai enthusiasts
>practice a Japanese art.
I think perhaps too much is being made of Bonsai being a "Japanese art".
Sure, bonsai as we know it was developed in Japan.
But I have never heard an impressionist style painter insisting that his
art is French. Or a sculptor insisting that his art is
Italian/Roman/Greek. Now that same artist or sculptor commenting that a
work is done in a style of the French impressionists, or Renaissance
Italian sculpture, that seems to be more common.
Perhaps styles have nationalities, but I rather think that art transcends
national borders. In this light, probably the most highly acclaimed bonsai
are Japanese, and why not? They have a several hundred year start on the
rest of us. I don't think anyone could argue that the styles and
techniques were certainly developed and defined there.
Perhaps a question would be, given some trees not native to Japan, how
would a Japanese Master Bonsai artist style them? I would be particularly
curious if, given trees from S. Africa, if the same style that I have heard
called "African bonsai" would have developed? The same question can be
asked regarding European or American or other non-Japanese native plants.
Another question might be - when does an art no longer "belong" to its
nation of origin"? After all, if what I have read is correct, the
cultivation of trees in pots was something that originally came to Japan
from China. The style obviously changed, in fact, so much so that bonsai
certainly isn't considered Chinese.
Sam Crowell
Klamath Falls, Or
Zone 3
Jim Lewis
> > Can we do more than parrot the founders of bonsai. [?]
>------------
>
>Hopefully not until we understand what they do (did). After that point, I
>sure hope "we" can. Parrot first, innovate later.
Since this is a question I have asked before (and gotten much the same in
response), I found this part of the answer a bit odd.
Understand? Is there some deep inner mystical something attached to
bonsai? Nah. Need I recite a mantra to some deity before I build one? I
sure hope not!
Please, let's not create some kind of imaginary eastern mythos about the
art of bonsai (or, to divorce it a bit from being "Japanese" the artistic
cultivation of small trees in small pots). There isn't one and never was.
There are many of us over here who are well beyond the parrot stage -- or
would be if they'd let themselves. They are the ones who should start
innovating. I find our potters are more innovative than our growers of
trees -- except in some small pockets of tree growing, most of them around
the edges of the continent, for some reason.
Oh well . . .
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - The other half of the
crabby Jim and Ron show
Andy Rutledge
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis" <jkl...@NETTALLY.COM>
<snip>
> Understand? Is there some deep inner mystical something attached to
> bonsai? Nah. Need I recite a mantra to some deity before I build one? I
> sure hope not!
--------------------------
I apologize for not being clear. I meant nothing of the kind. I meant - to
understand how to apply wire, to understand how to prune each particular
species, to understand how to apply general and specific horticultural
principles, to understand how to read the signs of stress and vigor in a
tree, to understand basic and specific seasonal concerns of work on the
tree, to understand what operations should and should not be done to a tree
in combination with some other operation(s), to understand the species
specific results of differing methods of trimming, to understand what
balance means as applied to a cascade, an informal upright, a slanting tree,
any specific tree of any style, to understand how to groom juvenile material
for a specific outcome 15 years down the road, to understand the principles
of harmony and dischord, of symmetry, asymmetry and tension in bonsai
design, to understand the methods of matching pot to tree, tree to stand,
etc...
etc...
Nothing mystical - just understanding.
-------------------------
> There are many of us over here who are well beyond the parrot stage -- or
> would be if they'd let themselves. They are the ones who should start
> innovating. I find our potters are more innovative than our growers of
> trees -- except in some small pockets of tree growing, most of them around
> the edges of the continent, for some reason.
> Oh well . . .
> Jim Lewis
--------------------------
Amen!
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
********************************************************************************
Andy Rutledge
From: "Sam Crowell" <bo...@KFALLS.NET>
> I think perhaps too much is being made of Bonsai being a "Japanese art".
<snip>
------------------
Yes! And no. Too much being made of it; perhaps, but the fact remains that
"bonsai" is an art developed (as we know it) in Japan - with rules that are
NOT NECESSARILY JAPANESE, but are rather conducive to good bonsai - of any
nationality. ;-) IMO, too much has clearly been made of what nationality
the "rules" of bonsai are. Quality is quality.
------------------
> Perhaps a question would be, given some trees not native to Japan, how
> would a Japanese Master Bonsai artist style them? I would be particularly
> curious if, given trees from S. Africa, if the same style that I have
heard
> called "African bonsai" would have developed? The same question can be
> asked regarding European or American or other non-Japanese native plants.
------------------------
I would hope that a Japanese or S. African or European bonsai artist
presented with non-native material would style the tree the way that that
particular tree would seem to prefer to be styled - regardless of what the
conventions of its country of origin would dictate. Trying to style a tree
into a cascade when it clearly wants to be a broom styled form is not often
advisable. Trying to style a Korean tree into an American form.... I have
no idea what that means.
-------------------------
> Another question might be - when does an art no longer "belong" to its
> nation of origin"? After all, if what I have read is correct, the
> cultivation of trees in pots was something that originally came to Japan
> from China. The style obviously changed, in fact, so much so that bonsai
> certainly isn't considered Chinese.
> Sam Crowell
-------------------------
As "bonsai" is Japanese and "penjing" is Chinese - "what" is American? I
see no need to be overly concerned with these kinds of naming
technicalities, but for some reason it seems to be very important to some.
So, in this regard the terminology would seem to be relevant.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
********************************************************************************
Ron Martin
**********************
> > Is there such a thing as American bonsai.[?]
> ------------
>
> Well, since bonsai is a Japanese art, what do you mean?
*******************************
Painting is an art but there are several types. Renascence , traditional
oriental , impressionist, modern , classical and good old Early American .
Same with music. Gardening too. Each has evolved from what ever was the
beginning.
Why can't bonsai be the same way.
Besides bonsai is not a Japanese art. Sure they refined it to fit their
culture but thy still got it from the Chinese. How come we don't follow the
Chinese school of bonsai ????
****************************
> ------------
>
> > Is there in fact an American bonsai culture. Or are we just in love with
> an
> > oriental one.[?]
> ------------
>
> Does it matter? Again, refer to answer above.
> ------------
**************
Yes I think so
***********************
>
> > When you look at the great bonsai's do you see an American tree.[?]
> ------------
>
> If by "great bonsai" you mean the Kokufu-ten and Sakufu-ten winners, yes,
in
> every one of them. There is nothing Japanese or American about a tree.
> ------------
******************
Never have I seen an ancient oak depicted in bonsai. Nor a swamp instead of
a forest. Nor have I ever seen a tropical tree done well under "the rules"
***************************
> > Has that lone tree in the middle of the prairie ever been depicted.[?]
> ------------
>
> Sure. Nick Lenz has. Several Europeans have as I recall, too. Probably
> others. I'm even grooming one for that very image - a single tree on a
> large slab. Would you call that "American" bonsai? Why?
> ------------
>
*******************
"Several Europeans" might be true but then how many prairies do they have.
An American bonsai is what an American can understand. Something close to
what he sees in his (or her) woods.
**************************
> > Is the "oriental " bonsai the only way to do it.[?]
> ------------
>
> What does this mean? Bonsai is a Japanese art. We bonsai enthusiasts
> practice a Japanese art.
> ------------
*************************
No we practice what started off as an oriental art
******************************
>
> > Can we style an American
> > tree without reference to the Japanese "rules" [?]
> ------------
>
> Not and make a good bonsai. We can, however, use Japanese rules to make a
> good example of a tree found on Main street, U.S.A.. Again, what do you
> mean?
> ------------
>
*****************
Not main street in Florida, Louisiana, Georgia or South Carolina. Come to
think of it not most places in Europe or South Africa for that matter
************************
> > Do those rules hold merit here.[?]
> ------------
>
> Only with good examples of bonsai.
> ------------
***********************
Your idea of good bonsai.
***********************
> > Can we do more than parrot the founders of bonsai. [?]
> ------------
>
> Hopefully not until we understand what they do (did). After that point, I
> sure hope "we" can. Parrot first, innovate later.
>
*****************************
We have parroted for the last 50 years isn't it time we innovated
******************************
> Ron, these are serious answers to your serious questions. They are not
> meant to deride or inflame. I hope that you meant what you said - that
your
> questions were serious. Let's discuss! ;-)
>
**************************
I hope we did. You did not inflame or deride as far as I know. But then I
might just be getting used to it ;o)
I personally am tired of all bonsai being a cookie cutter sort of thing.
It's done this way because that is the way it has always been done.
Think I might just take some time out and return to the old drawing board.
Ron Martin
Patrick Alexander
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam Crowell" <bo...@KFALLS.NET>
>> I think perhaps too much is being made of Bonsai being a "Japanese art".
> <snip>
> ------------------
> Yes! And no. Too much being made of it; perhaps, but the fact remains that
> "bonsai" is an art developed (as we know it) in Japan - with rules that are
> NOT NECESSARILY JAPANESE, but are rather conducive to good bonsai - of any
> nationality. ;-) IMO, too much has clearly been made of what nationality
> the "rules" of bonsai are. Quality is quality.
> ------------------
Quality, in this case, is not objective and location-independent.
For that matter, even if quality were objective and independent of
location, it wouldn't do me much good to produce trees I didn't like the
looks of and which had no relation to any trees I'd seen just because
those trees had some objective attribute called `quality'. If that were
the case I'd prefer to produce objectively poor trees that I enjoyed.
Patrick Alexander
Alan Walker
few books. Cookie cutter my a**. Yeah, there's a lot of cookie cutter bonsai out
there, but it's not being touted as great. There is plenty of creativity at work in
bonsai. ALL bonsai is not even close to being cookie cutter. I know you get a kick
out of whipping up controversy with your overgeneralizations, but do you really
believe what you are saying here?
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Rutledge
You imply that "quality" bonsai are those whose image does not represent the
trees found in your geographic location. Why would you believe this? A
talented, skilled bonsai artist should be able to create bonsai that are
evocative of any form found in nature (or not found in nature). Quality is
still quality, no matter how you slice it. Who cares if John Doe or Jane
Doe can create bonsai that look like the trees found on Mt. Hiei or the
coasts of Hokkaido. Whether the image is evocative of a juniper on a
mountain in Japan or of a hackberry in an alley in Amarillo, quality is
still quality.
Further, I do believe that quality is objective (in art). As bonsai is an
artistic endeavor, put a quality bonsai and a junk bonsai side by side. Ask
any number of competent artists of any design discipline (painting,
sculpting, ikebana, etc...) to evaluate them and I would bet the mortgage
that every one would be able to point out the better tree and the junk tree.
What you refer to at the end of your message has nothing to do with quality
and everything to do with individual enjoyment. Individual enjoyment has
nothing to do with any form of rule or guideline. Individual enjoyment is
wholly subjective - completely divorced from the opinions of others - and
not the subject of my gist. Some enjoy striving for quality and some could
not care less about what the elements of quality are. No big deal, but a
separate issue.
Reiner Goebel
> I personally am tired of all bonsai being a cookie cutter sort of thing.
> It's done this way because that is the way it has always been done.
Just so we all know what you mean by 'cookie cutter' bonsai, would you
mind pointing a few out to us?
Reiner Goebel
Toronto, Canada
http://www.tbs.game2.com/
Bart Thomas
Do we get in trouble when we try to attach nationalities to art?
I think so.
Staying with the Liporace style (having seen his demo tree from the BCI
cruise up close) It's very different but totally valid and NOT 'Japanese' in
style. (It's at Chase Rosade's; I'll try to take a photo tomorrow when I'm
there to work on Texas Ebonies (Ebonics ?) so that I can post it in the
gallery.)
However, the effect fits the ideas of what a bonsai should be.
I'm sure that there are equally valid (unjapanese styled) trees being done
by americans. It's just that the Italian master comes to mind as a starting
point.
Bart
(a beginner, lover of the japanese style, who believes that you have to
learn the rules so that you know what you are doing when you break them.)
"Andy Rutledge" <sei...@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote in message
news:004201c164d7$b8fe3be0$8c7e...@plano1.tx.home.com...
Craig Cowing
> Ron,
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Martin" <r...@TOKONOMA.COM>
> > Any thoughts. And please for a change try not to quote any ying or yang or
> > Zen or any other of the standard answers. Search deep and make a
> statement.
> > For a change I am asking a serious question.
> ----------------------------
>
> <snip>
> > Is there such a thing as American bonsai.[?]
> ------------
>
> Well, since bonsai is a Japanese art, what do you mean?
> ------------
>
> > Is there in fact an American bonsai culture. Or are we just in love with
> an
> > oriental one.[?]
> ------------
>
> Does it matter? Again, refer to answer above.
> ------------
>
> <snip>
> > Can we do more than parrot the founders of bonsai. [?]
> ------------
>
> Hopefully not until we understand what they do (did). After that point, I
> sure hope "we" can. Parrot first, innovate later.
>
> Ron, these are serious answers to your serious questions. They are not
> meant to deride or inflame. I hope that you meant what you said - that your
> questions were serious. Let's discuss! ;-)
>
> Kind regards,
> Andy Rutledge
> zone 8, Texas
>
Just to throw my $.02 worth in. Good questions Ron. Let's talk about them.
I'm with Andy--what difference does it make if bonsai is an American art or a
Japanese art? If I admire a piece of Asian art, let's say a painting, am I merely
parroting somebody else if I hang it on my wall? No. I'm admiring somebody else's
work, a piece of work which inspires me, which speaks to me in some way. I say
that as somebody who has absolutely no Asian background or ancestry. Do I have to
be Asian to enjoy Asian art? I hope not.
Let's turn this on its head. I think there are very few people who would disagree
that the Japanese are taken with American culture. I don't know enough about
contemporary Japan to go into detail, but that is at least what my daughter's
Japanese friend (who was here last year as an exchange student) told me. When we
see appreciation of aspects of our culture, do we think of the admirers as
parroting us? Maybe they are. Maybe they pick up on what we would consider the
less refined aspects of our culture. But parroting? I don't think so . They see
something they like. Pretty basic human response.
As Ron pointed out, our culture is one which absorbs and adapts. In many ways , we
are like the ancient Romans, who conquered much of the world known to them and
brought back home aspects of these cultures, including religion and art. They
didn't innovate as much as they adapted. They were superior technologically but
the ideas often originated elsewhere, as evidenced by their adaptation of Greek
religion and architecture. The operative word here is "adaptation." They didn't
mimic. They took the basics and made it their own.
So, the question is, does an art form have to be American before I, as a WASP
American whose ancestors landed at Plymouth Rock, can enjoy it? No. I adopt
what I appreciate and incorporate it into my life at whatever level I choose.
Besides, what is "American?" I don't care if it is American, Chinese, Japanese, or
whatever. If I like it, I like it. I like bonsai.
Craig Cowing
Monmouth ME
Zone 4b/5 sunset 38
Ten months of winter, two months of damned poor skiing.
Patrick Alexander
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrick Alexander" <paal...@STEEL.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
> Andy wrote:
>> > ...Quality is quality.
> -----------------
>> Quality, in this case, is not objective and location-independent.
>> For that matter, even if quality were objective and independent of
>> location, it wouldn't do me much good to produce trees I didn't like the
>> looks of and which had no relation to any trees I'd seen just because
>> those trees had some objective attribute called `quality'. If that were
>> the case I'd prefer to produce objectively poor trees that I enjoyed.
>>
>> Patrick Alexander
> -------------------------------
> You imply that "quality" bonsai are those whose image does not represent the
> trees found in your geographic location. Why would you believe this? A
> talented, skilled bonsai artist should be able to create bonsai that are
> evocative of any form found in nature (or not found in nature).
You equated the Japanese way of doing bonsai with quality, and it
is this that leads me to believe that quality bonsai don't have much to do
with the trees I see around me.
> Quality is
> still quality, no matter how you slice it. Who cares if John Doe or Jane
> Doe can create bonsai that look like the trees found on Mt. Hiei or the
> coasts of Hokkaido. Whether the image is evocative of a juniper on a
> mountain in Japan or of a hackberry in an alley in Amarillo, quality is
> still quality.
So, could you point me to a bonsai done by the rules that looks
like a hackberry in an alley in Amarillo?
> Further, I do believe that quality is objective (in art). As bonsai is an
> artistic endeavor, put a quality bonsai and a junk bonsai side by side. Ask
> any number of competent artists of any design discipline (painting,
> sculpting, ikebana, etc...) to evaluate them and I would bet the mortgage
> that every one would be able to point out the better tree and the junk tree.
Agreement does not demonstrate the objectivity of that upon which
there is agreement. And the agreement is rather loose in any case... take
any number of competent artists to evaluate all the trees in a major
judged show, and you can be sure to get any number of wildly varying
results.
> What you refer to at the end of your message has nothing to do with quality
> and everything to do with individual enjoyment. Individual enjoyment has
> nothing to do with any form of rule or guideline. Individual enjoyment is
> wholly subjective - completely divorced from the opinions of others - and
> not the subject of my gist. Some enjoy striving for quality and some could
> not care less about what the elements of quality are. No big deal, but a
> separate issue.
And some enjoy striving for quality, but disagree with the
traditional conception of what quality consists in. Quality has nothing
to do with any for of rule or guideline either, or at least it has as
little to do with rules and guidelines as individual enjoyment. Rules and
guidelines whose goal is to result in the production of high quality
bonsai can be created, but rules and guidelines whose goal is the
production of bonsai that I enjoy can also be created. But both high
quality trees and trees that I enjoy are such without reference to the
rules or guidelines that were used in creating them.
Patrick Alexander
Ron Martin
>
Evidently we do.
This whole string started over a comment about the US Postal System putting
a bonsai on a stamp. Still don't think that will ever happen But you can
never tell.
If it is an oriental art form like some have said (and it is) and it hasn't
evolved into the American culture (not yet anyway) why would it be put on a
US postal stamp.
Nothing wrong in attaching nationalities to anything if it is done purely
for identification purposes. And there is nothing wrong in taking something
from another culture and modifying it to suit the local tastes.
I learned the basic styling techniques a long time ago. Maybe I didn't
master them but I did learn them.
They were not all that hard. Just a few simple things. The horticulture
rules were much harder and I am still , after all these years , learning
them.
My personal favorite style is a forest planting. For years I did them in a
traditional way. Just like in the books I had the primary , the secondary
and the jumper tree. Followed by all the other numbers. Shallowest of all
possible oval pots.
I tried to make them all look like John Naka's "Goshin" ( a beautiful and
awe inspiring planting )
Then I moved to South Carolina and got introduced to a new form of forest. A
cypress swamp.
For several years now I have been trying use these trees in a forest
planting. Some how it just never looked right.
Two years ago I started really studying some of our local swamps. I realized
that the traditional rules do not apply there. New rules apply. Placement
and style of tree are totally different.
So I am back to the old drawing board. Still there.
I like to think I am doing better. Something must be happening because now I
get quite a few bookings to do my swamp plantings for bonsai clubs.
Will this new style ever catch on . Heavens only knows.
It is different but I'll leave it up to others to decide if it is good or
just a novelty.
But is it bonsai. I think so.
It came out of a small area in the US. It was inspired by a "forest" found
most notably in the US. And done for an American audience.
So can it be called an oriental art form ? Or has bonsai been assimilated
into the American culture in a small way. Can it be called American bonsai
Ron Martin
********************************************************************************
marco favero
> > Do we get in trouble when we try to attach nationalities to art?
> >
>
Ron ,
your speech is quite correct ,understandable and why not acceptable ;
we all are waiting to see the pictures (in the gallery) of your forest ,
it would be better than thousand words ! BTW, is your forest closed , open or
other ?thanks ,
marco
********************************************************************************
martin
There are many interpretations in art, each dependent upon one's background.
I might concentrate on the nebari, while you might think about the apex, and
a third person would not focus on either: he/she would be interested in how
the tree fits into its environment. With our Euro-American culture, we tend
work with details, then combine those details into a unity of some sort.
This contrasts with the Asian approach, which tends to focus upon a detail,
leaving the larger picture to one's imagination (negative space - yin-yang).
Both approaches are legitimate, and both can benefit from each other.
This is a wonderful world in which we are free to incorporate any ideas
which appeal to us. That's why I won't allow myself to argue this issue.
Marty
Jim Lewis
> Just to throw my $.02 worth in. Good questions Ron. Let's
talk about them.
>
> I'm with Andy--what difference does it make if bonsai is an
American art or a
> Japanese art? If I admire a piece of Asian art, let's say a
painting, am I merely
> parroting somebody else if I hang it on my wall? No. I'm
admiring somebody else's
> work, a piece of work which inspires me, which speaks to me in
some way. I say
> that as somebody who has absolutely no Asian background or
ancestry. Do I have to
> be Asian to enjoy Asian art? I hope not.
If you display an Asian art form, absolutely not. If you create,
paint, print, or sculpt a distinctly Asian work, I suspect the
answer is "yes."
>
> Let's turn this on its head. I think there are very few people
who would disagree
> that the Japanese are taken with American culture. I don't
know enough about
> contemporary Japan to go into detail, but that is at least what
my daughter's
> Japanese friend (who was here last year as an exchange student)
told me. When we
> see appreciation of aspects of our culture, do we think of the
admirers as
> parroting us? Maybe they are. Maybe they pick up on what we
would consider the
> less refined aspects of our culture. But parroting? I don't
think so . They see
> something they like. Pretty basic human response.
I think it's a long-time-held awareness (almost a joke) that the
Japanese tend to copy things in other cultures that they like.
(Copy = Parrot). In many instances, they improve on it;
sometimes they merely make a cheaper version that may or may not
be as good. They have copied concepts from China and Korea (who
also got it from Chine, most likely) and made them their own, and
some feel, better. Bonsai and stones may be examples.
>
> As Ron pointed out, our culture is one which absorbs and
adapts. In many ways , we
> are like the ancient Romans, who conquered much of the world
known to them and
> brought back home aspects of these cultures, including religion
and art. They
> didn't innovate as much as they adapted. They were superior
technologically but
> the ideas often originated elsewhere, as evidenced by their
adaptation of Greek
> religion and architecture. The operative word here is
"adaptation." They didn't
> mimic. They took the basics and made it their own.
And different. This is much like what the Japanese (and ANY
culture -- whether it is the conqueror or the conquored) will do
with and to new ideas from the new culture thay have come in
contact with. (Neandertal couldn't do this, so they're gone.)
For the most part, *we* have yet to do that with bonsai. Most of
us just copy what we see from Japan (or more rarely -- alas --
China).
>
> So, the question is, does an art form have to be American
before I, as a WASP
> American whose ancestors landed at Plymouth Rock, can enjoy it?
No. That;s NOT the question Ron asked -- not as I understand it,
in any event. You can (and obviously do) enjoy bonsai as an
Oriental art form. I don't know your trees that well, so I have
no idea whether you copy the form or whether you go beyond that
to make what you do "Murrican" or not.
>No. I adopt
> what I appreciate and incorporate it into my life at whatever
level I choose.
> Besides, what is "American?" I don't care if it is American,
Chinese, Japanese, or
> whatever. If I like it, I like it. I like bonsai.
Which is fine. _I_ would like to see the truly skilled among us
do more than be copycats/parrots/whatever but apparently most are
willing to merely go on making nice trees . . .
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - He who sets
an apple tree will live to see it end. He who sets a pear tree,
sets it for a friend. - Anon.
********************************************************************************
Ron Martin
>
> your speech is quite correct ,understandable and why not acceptable ;
> we all are waiting to see the pictures (in the gallery) of your forest ,
> it would be better than thousand words ! BTW, is your forest closed , open
or
> other ?thanks ,
>
> marco
>
Actually there have been some pictures posted to the Gallery in the past.
Not many comments were made about them though. Guess there was not much
interest there.
I have started collecting materials for my next one and will start on it
next week. There will be some changes made to the planting. I am still
trying to learn how to do a convincing one.
I had one on display at the North Carolina Arboretum show this year. When
Walter Paul did his critique of the bonsai displays he said something that
clicked in my brain.
When Colin Lewis was by a few weeks ago he made a few suggestions that also
set me to thinking.
A big impact was made by our resident painter . Good old Carl Rosner.
A while back I sent him a photo of one of the local swamps. He surprised me
by doing a painting from it. Best present I ever got.
Looking at that painting has change some of my notions. Actually a lot of
them.
Maybe one day I will get it right. Maybe not. But in the meantime I am sure
learning a lot and to be sure , having a good time.
Anyway when I get this one done I will post it to the Gallery. Won't be till
spring probably. I'll have to let it leaf out or it will just look like a
bunch of sticks in a pot.
To answer your question I guess the best answer is "other". I am not really
sure how it will turn out
Ron Martin
Andy Rutledge
From: "Patrick Alexander" <paal...@STEEL.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
> You equated the Japanese way of doing bonsai with quality, and it
> is this that leads me to believe that quality bonsai don't have much to do
> with the trees I see around me.
No. I've never mentioned any Japanese way of doing bonsai. Others seem to
be caught up with this kind of label. I made reference the bonsai that are
being produced by skilled and talented bonsai artists in Japan, Europe, N.
America, etc..., but never "American" bonsai, "Japanese" bonsai, or
"European" bonsai. Further, I've mentioned that the artistic conventions
and techniques used by Japanese artists are conducive to quality bonsai, but
I've never mentioned any culturally specific way of doing bonsai. This
would seem to be one of the major points of contention (and confusion). ;-)
------------------
> So, could you point me to a bonsai done by the rules that looks
> like a hackberry in an alley in Amarillo?
------------------
Sure. Look in the Kokufu-ten album #72, pages 19, 22, 39, 66, 101, 118,
167, 170, 217, 236, 244, 269,
For an example of a bonsai evocative of a red oak in Okalahoma, look in the
same book on pages 94, 101, 107, 211, 217, 250,
For a bonsai evocative of a Beaud'arc (sp?) in Dallas, same book, page 259.
For bonsai evocative of a pine in Lumberton, same book, pages 77, 163, 251,
253,
I could continue, but I hope that you get the gist. I've only got the one
Kokufu-ten album, you see ;-)
-----------------
> Agreement does not demonstrate the objectivity of that upon which
> there is agreement. And the agreement is rather loose in any case... take
> any number of competent artists to evaluate all the trees in a major
> judged show, and you can be sure to get any number of wildly varying
> results.
------------------
This has nothing to do with what I referred to. I was talking about the
differences between junk and quality - something that you would seem to deny
exists. I suggest that the difference is tangible and easily recognized by
competent artists. Do you continue to deny the distinction?
Reiner Goebel
snip
> All these were given a definite American flavor when we adopted them. Have
> we done this with bonsai. Is there such a thing as American bonsai. Just
> what makes bonsai worth a stamp.
Once again, Canada is way ahead. ;-) Here, you
can have the Post Office make you a set of your very own stamps -
bonsai, Fifi or the latest addition to the family, anything within the
limits of
decency - at a price, of course. $12.50 worth of stamps cost about $27.
The Post Office's answer to the Department of Transport's vanity plates.
Reiner Goebel
Toronto, Canada
http://www.tbs.game2.com/
********************************************************************************
Craig Cowing
> <snip>
> > As Ron pointed out, our culture is one which absorbs and
> adapts. In many ways , we
> > are like the ancient Romans, who conquered much of the world
> known to them and
> > brought back home aspects of these cultures, including religion
> and art. They
> > didn't innovate as much as they adapted. They were superior
> technologically but
> > the ideas often originated elsewhere, as evidenced by their
> adaptation of Greek
> > religion and architecture. The operative word here is
> "adaptation." They didn't
> > mimic. They took the basics and made it their own.
>
> And different. This is much like what the Japanese (and ANY
> culture -- whether it is the conqueror or the conquored) will do
> with and to new ideas from the new culture thay have come in
> contact with. (Neandertal couldn't do this, so they're gone.)
> For the most part, *we* have yet to do that with bonsai. Most of
> us just copy what we see from Japan (or more rarely -- alas --
> China).
>
Consider, though, that bonsai in this country is only what--50 years old, not
counting the specimens brought to the US around the turn of the century such as
those at the Arnold Arboretum in Boston. I guess I'm just not worried about it
since it took centuries for the art to develop in Japan, and China before that.
>
> <snip>
> >No. I adopt
> > what I appreciate and incorporate it into my life at whatever
> level I choose.
> > Besides, what is "American?" I don't care if it is American,
> Chinese, Japanese, or
> > whatever. If I like it, I like it. I like bonsai.
>
> Which is fine. _I_ would like to see the truly skilled among us
> do more than be copycats/parrots/whatever but apparently most are
> willing to merely go on making nice trees . . .
>
> Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - He who sets
> an apple tree will live to see it end. He who sets a pear tree,
> sets it for a friend. - Anon.
>
For the most part, probably. But consider this--if bonsai is as new an art to this
country as it is (again, I'm assuming about 50 years) then those of us who are
doing it now are in the process of developing an "American" style. The first stage
of this undoubtedly is learning the methods of those who have come before us. Sort
of what Andy commented on earlier--learning the rules first, then knowing when and
where to break them. If bonsai is only in its infancy in this country in
comparison to its maturity in Japan, why worry about being infants?
Consider that probably there will never be a huge number of people in this country
doing bonsai. Sure, lots of people buying junipers as Christmas gifts, only to
watch them die two weeks later. Perhaps it might be too much to expect to see a
bonsai postage stamp in our lifetimes as a result.
Right now I guess I'm content with having trees that probably pretty much attempt
to conform to Japanese or Chinese styles. But with some of my collected trees I am
much more likely to allow the tree to guide me as to where it wants to go.
Another thing to consider is that if bonsai is to become a truly American art we
need to be willing to accept things as they develop that are quite different from
an Asian approach, such as a miniature tire swing hanging from a limb, or something
like that. The sort of thing Nick Lenz is doing--and it sounds like there is a
component of the bonsai world that sees him as a nut. Also, we need to be willing
to use non-Asian art objects and pictures as companion items in display. Don't get
me wrong--I love Asian art, but maybe doing more of this will "Americanize" bonsai.
Hey--I know what I might try sometime--making a pot from a cement block. Whaddya
think?
Craig Cowng
Monmouth ME
Zone 4b/5 sunset 38
********************************************************************************
Reiner Goebel
> I apologize for not being clear. I meant nothing of the kind. I meant - to
> understand how to apply wire, to understand how to prune each particular
> species, to understand how to apply general and specific horticultural
> principles, to understand how to read the signs of stress and vigor in a
> tree, to understand basic and specific seasonal concerns of work on the
> tree, to understand what operations should and should not be done to a tree
> in combination with some other operation(s), to understand the species
> specific results of differing methods of trimming, to understand what
> balance means as applied to a cascade, an informal upright, a slanting tree,
> any specific tree of any style, to understand how to groom juvenile material
> for a specific outcome 15 years down the road, to understand the principles
> of harmony and dischord, of symmetry, asymmetry and tension in bonsai
> design, to understand the methods of matching pot to tree, tree to stand,
> etc...
That's altogether too much understanding. Much easier to strive for
'American' bonsai. ;-)
Reiner Goebel
Toronto, Canada
http://www.tbs.game2.com/
********************************************************************************
Jim Lewis
>Actually there have been some pictures posted to the Gallery in the past.
>Not many comments were made about them though. Guess there was not much
>interest there.
>I have started collecting materials for my next one and will start on it
>next week. There will be some changes made to the planting. I am still
>trying to learn how to do a convincing one.
>I had one on display at the North Carolina Arboretum show this year. When
>Walter Paul did his critique of the bonsai displays he said something that
>clicked in my brain.
>When Colin Lewis was by a few weeks ago he made a few suggestions that also
>set me to thinking.
>A big impact was made by our resident painter . Good old Carl Rosner.
>A while back I sent him a photo of one of the local swamps. He surprised me
>by doing a painting from it. Best present I ever got.
>Looking at that painting has change some of my notions. Actually a lot of
>them.
>Maybe one day I will get it right. Maybe not. But in the meantime I am sure
>learning a lot and to be sure , having a good time.
>Anyway when I get this one done I will post it to the Gallery. Won't be till
>spring probably. I'll have to let it leaf out or it will just look like a
>bunch of sticks in a pot.
>To answer your question I guess the best answer is "other". I am not really
>sure how it will turn out
Anyone who wants to know what the swamps of the USA look like, as well as
how trees grow in them and what many native swamp (and other) southern
trees look like needs to go here: http://www.clydebutcher.com/
He's an Ansel Adams wannabe, but is quite good, despite that. I have two
of his photos (retirement gifts) -- one of the Tamiami Trail that I think
is illustrated on his site, and the other of a humongus bald cypress and
its knees in the Hillsborough River rapids near Tampa.
Jim Lewis - jkl...@nettally.com - Tallahassee, FL - Who used to do this,
too -- but nowhere near so well.
Andy Rutledge
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
Ron Martin
> how trees grow in them and what many native swamp (and other) southern
> trees look like needs to go here: http://www.clydebutcher.com/
>
> He's an Ansel Adams wannabe, but is quite good, despite that. I have two
> of his photos (retirement gifts) -- one of the Tamiami Trail that I think
> is illustrated on his site, and the other of a humongus bald cypress and
> its knees in the Hillsborough River rapids near Tampa.
>
> Jim
He does seem to capture the flavor of the swamp. Wish I could do that.
Ron Martin
Alan Walker
its capitalism hasn't thought of that! Vanity stamps, an idea that has to happen!
;-)
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
------------------------------------------------------------
snip
Alan Walker
Butcher a few years ago while visiting friends in Naples during our 25th wedding
anniversary. We visited his studio which is in the middle of the Everglades on the
Tamiami Trail about midway between coasts. I'd love to take one of his large format
photography courses.
> At 10:43 AM 11/4/01 -0500, Ron Martin wrote:
Allan James
Nick Lenz's work ( what I have seen in pictures) siezes the the urban sprawl of consumerism and presents this as a component of nature as it appears in the the western world. It may be abstract, but it essentially and undeniably binds the two .
Do countries outside of Japan need to re-invent the wheel to see or prove that they have made an art their own ( and godamnit, nobody else is does it the same;]! ).
I am not sure that that could really be done. The essentail concepts are now universal and accessible. We may be able to place our trees against murials, we may be able to incorporate rust into the design, but the fact may be that the process of getting it to these points requires an acceptance and utilisation of percolated techniques. The origins of the techniques have and were refined by the Japanese.
The other aspect that is definatly western is that of prematuraty. There seems to me to be an impatience that embodies itself in anything we do. " look Kid, its a numbers game sell ahundred and if we get 5 back, well we made profit on 95!.) Also this impatience is encouraged in the desire for for aclaimation and personal proclamation of "I AM". A tree straight out from a bonsai class is a litlle short on completion to called art, it is probably safe to call it artistic or un-born art.
Perhaps some humble acceptance of ourselves would allow us to be real members as growing individuals of a growing family in the slowly growing Bonsai world.
If Ron does another forest, and he does it in America, it will be American by birth. If he imports it will be American by naturalisation.
In the end will it really matter?. This thread started with stamps and Reiner just added that in Canada you can get all the bonsai stamps you want, provided you have the cash --and, I bet it don't matter a bit what the quality of the Bonsai subject matter is.
Hmmmm, if you did a set of Mallsai on a set of stamps would this then be art as percieved by the general public?
Al
NZ
Andy Rutledge
From: "Allan James" <cybe...@XTRA.CO.NZ>
<snip of a good post>
> Hmmmm, if you did a set of Mallsai on a set of stamps would this then be
art as percieved by the general public?
Yes.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
********************************************************************************
Jim Lewis
discovered Clyde
> Butcher a few years ago while visiting friends in Naples during
our 25th wedding
> anniversary. We visited his studio which is in the middle of
the Everglades on the
> Tamiami Trail about midway between coasts. I'd love to take
one of his large format
> photography courses.
Huh. Have you priced a Bessler 4x5 view camera lately?
jim
Patrick Alexander
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrick Alexander" <paal...@STEEL.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
>> You equated the Japanese way of doing bonsai with quality, and it
>> is this that leads me to believe that quality bonsai don't have much to do
>> with the trees I see around me.
> ------------------
> No. I've never mentioned any Japanese way of doing bonsai. Others seem to
> be caught up with this kind of label. I made reference the bonsai that are
> being produced by skilled and talented bonsai artists in Japan, Europe, N.
> America, etc..., but never "American" bonsai, "Japanese" bonsai, or
> "European" bonsai. Further, I've mentioned that the artistic conventions
> and techniques used by Japanese artists are conducive to quality bonsai, but
> I've never mentioned any culturally specific way of doing bonsai. This
> would seem to be one of the major points of contention (and confusion). ;-)
> ------------------
I'm not sure I see the distinction between `the artistic
conventions and techniques used by Japanese artists' and `the Japanese way
of doing bonsai'. Also, if you haven't mentioned any culturally specific
way of doing bonsai, why do you call bonsai a Japanese art?
>> So, could you point me to a bonsai done by the rules that looks
>> like a hackberry in an alley in Amarillo?
> ------------------
> Sure. Look in the Kokufu-ten album #72, pages 19, 22, 39, 66, 101, 118,
> 167, 170, 217, 236, 244, 269,
> For an example of a bonsai evocative of a red oak in Okalahoma, look in the
> same book on pages 94, 101, 107, 211, 217, 250,
> For a bonsai evocative of a Beaud'arc (sp?) in Dallas, same book, page 259.
> For bonsai evocative of a pine in Lumberton, same book, pages 77, 163, 251,
> 253,
> I could continue, but I hope that you get the gist. I've only got the one
> Kokufu-ten album, you see ;-)
> -----------------
I don't have any Kokufu-ten albums, actually. I've seen a few of
the trees from said albums on the gallery, though. :)
>> Agreement does not demonstrate the objectivity of that upon which
>> there is agreement. And the agreement is rather loose in any case... take
>> any number of competent artists to evaluate all the trees in a major
>> judged show, and you can be sure to get any number of wildly varying
>> results.
> ------------------
> This has nothing to do with what I referred to. I was talking about the
> differences between junk and quality - something that you would seem to deny
> exists. I suggest that the difference is tangible and easily recognized by
> competent artists. Do you continue to deny the distinction?
It's not so much that I deny that it exists, it's just that I deny
that it has any objective existence beyond the simple fact that when you
move out to the ends of the spectrum, the truly great bonsai and those
that barely deserve the word, there is agreement as to which is which. I
don't deny that there is agreement on these extreme cases, I just don't
think this agreement tells us anything about the objectivity of quality
in bonsai.
Patrick Alexander
Bill Neff
> been
>
Hmmm, does my forest planting with only 2 trees left count?
Bill Neff
Topeka, KS
Andy Rutledge
From: "Patrick Alexander" <paal...@STEEL.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
> I'm not sure I see the distinction between `the artistic
> conventions and techniques used by Japanese artists' and `the Japanese way
> of doing bonsai'. Also, if you haven't mentioned any culturally specific
> way of doing bonsai, why do you call bonsai a Japanese art?
Where's the distinction problem? Is it "the Japanese way" to create bonsai
that are aesthetically pleasing? No, it is the "good" way. Cultural labels
are meaningless in this case. The Japanese, as a general rule (the better
artists anyway), use good bonsai techniques. They are not Japanese
techniques, they are good, appropriate, effective, aesthetically pleasing
techniques. If one were to observe an American doing the right thing with
his/her trees, it would not be relevant to say "Oh, you use Japanese
techniques." While many Japanese bonsai can be said to be examples of
quality bonsai, it does not follow that all good bonsai are Japanese.
The fact that bonsai as we (I?) understand it was developed, codified and
refined in Japan makes it a Japanese art. However, unless I put on a kimono
and tabi, prepare my studio with a Shinto purification rite and chain-smoke
while I do bonsai, I consider what I do to be "bonsai," not "the Japanese
way of bonsai." My aim is "good" bonsai, not Japanese bonsai (not that I
may be successful yet).
Now, as to display, heck yes. Bonsai is an art that consists of composition
and display. Aside from these elements, it's nothing more than container
gardening. The proper way of displaying bonsai has little cultural
relevance in the West. But, because bonsai is a Japanese art, one adheres
to the display conventions of the art or one does it sloppily and messes it
up (or presents daring, unconventional elements in an attempt to effect
change) - UNTIL a new set of conventions is established. At which point, as
far as I'm concerned, one comes up with a new lable for the artform, because
it will not be bonsai, it will be something else (but this is not soooo
important). So far, no new recognized Western conventions for display have
been forthcoming so we are still left with the Japanese art of bonsai.
--------------------
> I don't have any Kokufu-ten albums, actually. I've seen a few of
> the trees from said albums on the gallery, though. :)
--------------------
I highly recommend that you pick one or more up. They are among the best
teaching tools and are increadibly inspiring. Beautiful! The price is not
too easy to swallow, but the reward is more than worth the expense. Not
quite sure what's in stock at the moment, but www.dallasbonsai.com usually
has a few.
--------------------
<snip>
>I
> don't deny that there is agreement on these extreme cases, I just don't
> think this agreement tells us anything about the objectivity of quality
> in bonsai.
> Patrick Alexander
--------------------
The extreme case is all that is necessary to support my point. Extreme
cases illustrate that the good/bad distinctions exist and study of each of
them can offer insight into what constitutes high quality and poor quality
(in the absence of instruction). I believe that one can address the
individual, specific characteristics of quality bonsai (technique and
aesthetic) and leave it to the artist to use these elements in composition
to create art. In fact, there is an article in the forthcoming TBE Journal
(in 5 languages! ;-) due on January, 15. It may help to clarify or may help
to spur further debate and disagreement. We'll see ;-)
I've enjoyed this discourse, Patrick.
Helena Handbasket
*snigger! ;-D
katie
: Interesting thoughts, something to ponder further tomorrow at work.
:
: > been
: >
:
: Hmmm, does my forest planting with only 2 trees left count?
:
: Bill Neff
: Topeka, KS
:
:
************************************************************************
********
: ++++With deep sadness for those who lost family and friends ++++
:
************************************************************************
********
: >>-->> The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/
Alan Walker
they mean by "cookie cutter" bonsai or even good or great bonsai. Apparently the
preference is for hyperbole over substance. There are obviously thousands of
examples of any of these types of bonsai, so why the reluctance to illustrate with
examples? Andy's the only one who's taken the time to look up and offer concrete
examples of what he's talking about.
Bonsai is a visual medium mostly. We have a gallery which will show bonsai
pretty well, at least in two dimensions. I'd have a lot more respect for putting up
examples to illustrate these points. It seems only fair.
As far as "objectivity" in quality of bonsai, that's going to be a tough nut
to crack. Seems to me that quality standards for bonsai, like any art, are mostly
subjective.
> For an example of a bonsai evocative of a red oak in Oklahoma, look in the
********************************************************************************
Ian Kerfoot
> can have the Post Office make you a set of your very own stamps -
> bonsai, Fifi or the latest addition to the family, anything within the
> limits of decency - at a price, of course. $12.50 worth of stamps cost about $27.
I remember seeing an ad on TV in the US for something from the postal service for
businesses that do their own metering of mail. They had something set up on it so
the post mark would have whatever logo the business wanted to put on it. I doubt
that any particular enforcement of the standards of decency would be practical in
such a situation.
Ian Kerfoot
The Banyan Tree Homepage
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/4287
Lynn Boyd
> > and techniques used by Japanese artists are conducive to
quality bonsai, but
> > I've never mentioned any culturally specific way of doing
bonsai. This
> > would seem to be one of the major points of contention (and
confusion). ;-)
------------------
Quality is an awkward word it seems to me. It can be
confused with "qualities" in another context and I had to do a
double-take on your language at first.
We can in most arts make statements of the Universal
qualities in an art form, the cultural qualities of an art form,
the individual qualities of it. These are distinguishing
characteristics - most important.
Your arguments I don't quarrel with, but
"quality" - can you switch that to read better? You can try
admirable, outstanding, surpassing, perfected, superior -
please? Oh, and when something very new and stimulating
comes along - how about transcendent?? :)
Sorry about the interuption.
Lynn
Andy Rutledge
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd" <lynn...@EARTHLINK.NET>
<snip>
> Your arguments I don't quarrel with, but
> "quality" - can you switch that to read better? You can try
> admirable, outstanding, surpassing, perfected, superior -
> please? Oh, and when something very new and stimulating
> comes along - how about transcendent?? :)
> Sorry about the interuption.
> Lynn
-----------------------------
Since terminology seems to be the greatest points of contention (now and
always), I must stand pat. You think that I'm getting flack now, I shudder
to think what might get started if I said "superior" bonsai. "Transcendent"
bonsai? That would surely bring the wrath of God himself! ;-)
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge, Infidel
zone 8, Texas
I dunno nuthin' 'bout transcendency
Anton Nijhuis
Maintenance' it is about one person's search of the definition of 'quality'.
Anton
-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club [mailto:BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]On Behalf
Of Andy Rutledge
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 9:47 PM
To: BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: Examples! - Re: Ron's "serious questions"
Hi Lynn,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Boyd" <lynn...@EARTHLINK.NET>
<snip>
> Your arguments I don't quarrel with, but
> "quality" - can you switch that to read better? You can try
> admirable, outstanding, surpassing, perfected, superior -
> please? Oh, and when something very new and stimulating
> comes along - how about transcendent?? :)
> Sorry about the interuption.
> Lynn
-----------------------------
********************************************************************************
Patrick Alexander
> So far, everyone seems to be ducking the showing of actual examples of what
> they mean by "cookie cutter" bonsai or even good or great bonsai. Apparently the
> preference is for hyperbole over substance. There are obviously thousands of
> examples of any of these types of bonsai, so why the reluctance to illustrate with
> examples?
For myself, it's because most of the examples I've seen have
either been lost in the various incarnations of the IBC gallery, or I've
forgotten where else online I've seen them.
Many of Walter's trees would be examples of bonsai that I think
are very good, but don't fit the Japanese norms as I understand them.
Reiner posted a Euonymous a while back that would also fit that
description, though it was a tree he didn't care for (something about
reverse-taper where several trunk separate... though if you ask me,
reverse taper is something that's -supposed- to happen where several
trunks separate). I'm not sure, given the recent `Gallery' thread, that I
should point out trees on the IBC gallery that look cookie-cutter-esque to
me... though I will say that I'm only barely convinced that there is more
than one finished trident maple bonsai in the world, given as what they
all look pretty much the same to me (and none of them look like any maples
I've seen).
Patrick Alexander
Bart Thomas
lousy (too busy backgrounds, etc) at:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/agora/view.php?key=1004943554&bn=internetb
onsaiclub_ibcgallery&site=internetbonsaiclub
Enjoy! I think you'll see my point with the heroic branch bending. The
total profile of the tree is the object. the fact that 1" brances were bent
loke so much pasta is beside the point, as the objective is the shape of the
tree as a whole.
Liporace's tree, definately "contemporary" style, demonstrates this approach
beautifully.
Bart
"Bart Thomas" <bart_...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9s2jle$6kg$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> Does this mean that Liporace's work is "Italian" bonsai vs simply bonsai?
>
> Do we get in trouble when we try to attach nationalities to art?
>
> I think so.
>
> Staying with the Liporace style (having seen his demo tree from the BCI
> cruise up close) It's very different but totally valid and NOT 'Japanese'
in
> style. (It's at Chase Rosade's; I'll try to take a photo tomorrow when I'm
> there to work on Texas Ebonies (Ebonics ?) so that I can post it in the
> gallery.)
>
> However, the effect fits the ideas of what a bonsai should be.
>
> I'm sure that there are equally valid (unjapanese styled) trees being done
> by americans. It's just that the Italian master comes to mind as a
starting
> point.
>
> Bart
>
> (a beginner, lover of the japanese style, who believes that you have to
> learn the rules so that you know what you are doing when you break them.)
>
>
>
> "Andy Rutledge" <sei...@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote in message
> news:004201c164d7$b8fe3be0$8c7e...@plano1.tx.home.com...
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sam Crowell" <bo...@KFALLS.NET>
> >
> > > I think perhaps too much is being made of Bonsai being a "Japanese
art".
> > <snip>
> > ------------------
> >
> > Yes! And no. Too much being made of it; perhaps, but the fact remains
> that
> > "bonsai" is an art developed (as we know it) in Japan - with rules that
> are
> > NOT NECESSARILY JAPANESE, but are rather conducive to good bonsai - of
any
> > nationality. ;-) IMO, too much has clearly been made of what
nationality
> > the "rules" of bonsai are. Quality is quality.
> > ------------------
> >
> > > Perhaps a question would be, given some trees not native to Japan, how
> > > would a Japanese Master Bonsai artist style them? I would be
> particularly
> > > curious if, given trees from S. Africa, if the same style that I have
> > heard
> > > called "African bonsai" would have developed? The same question can
be
> > > asked regarding European or American or other non-Japanese native
> plants.
> > ------------------------
> >
> > I would hope that a Japanese or S. African or European bonsai artist
> > presented with non-native material would style the tree the way that
that
> > particular tree would seem to prefer to be styled - regardless of what
the
> > conventions of its country of origin would dictate. Trying to style a
> tree
> > into a cascade when it clearly wants to be a broom styled form is not
> often
> > advisable. Trying to style a Korean tree into an American form.... I
have
> > no idea what that means.
> > -------------------------
> >
> > > Another question might be - when does an art no longer "belong" to its
> > > nation of origin"? After all, if what I have read is correct, the
> > > cultivation of trees in pots was something that originally came to
Japan
> > > from China. The style obviously changed, in fact, so much so that
> bonsai
> > > certainly isn't considered Chinese.
> > > Sam Crowell
> > -------------------------
> >
> > As "bonsai" is Japanese and "penjing" is Chinese - "what" is American?
I
> > see no need to be overly concerned with these kinds of naming
> > technicalities, but for some reason it seems to be very important to
some.
> > So, in this regard the terminology would seem to be relevant.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Andy Rutledge
> > zone 8, Texas
> >
> >
>
****************************************************************************
> ****
Reiner Goebel
> Liporace's tree, definately "contemporary" style, demonstrates this approach
> beautifully.
It is a nice tree, no doubt. 'Contemporary' only in the sense that it
was styled now. Other than that, it's Kimura-Japanese through and
through.
Dare I say cookie cutter? ;-)
Reiner Goebel
Toronto, Canada
http://www.tbs.game2.com/
********************************************************************************
Andy Rutledge
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Alexander" <paal...@STEEL.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
> ....though I will say that I'm only barely convinced that there is more
> than one finished trident maple bonsai in the world, given as what they
> all look pretty much the same to me (and none of them look like any maples
> I've seen).
> Patrick Alexander
------------------
One of the things that I've read and have been taught is that rather than
just trying to make a bonsai of a particular species look like a full-sized
tree of that species, one should strive to bring out the unique or special
qualities of a particular species and accentuate them.
Trident maple has this great characteristic of being able to put on a
massive trunk quickly and to have an almost viscous quality to is root
formation if allowed to grow that way. Consequently, many use these
characteristics in growing them for bonsai. This, of course, does not mean
that all trident maples need to be massive, extreme taper specimens with
oozing root formations, but many will because that's how they sort of prefer
to grow. The point is, bonsai is not necessarily about trying to re-create
the image of an actual tree in a meadow (but I've seen some that do and do
it well).
FWIW
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
********************************************************************************
Craig Cowing
> Hi Patrick,
>
> One of the things that I've read and have been taught is that rather than
> just trying to make a bonsai of a particular species look like a full-sized
> tree of that species, one should strive to bring out the unique or special
> qualities of a particular species and accentuate them.
>
> <snip>
> The point is, bonsai is not necessarily about trying to re-create
> the image of an actual tree in a meadow (but I've seen some that do and do
> it well).
>
> FWIW
>
> Kind regards,
> Andy Rutledge
> zone 8, Texas
>
In the last year or so I've come to the conclusion that the point is not strictly
to create a miniature tree, true to scale with miniature leaves (although that's
nice when it works) but at times, depending on the species, the point of bonsai can
also be to reproduce the dwarfing effects of the right natural conditions--growing
on ledge or rock, constant wind, etc. In other words, to reproduce what a tree
might look like were it to be dwarfed by nature.
I guess that's why with my collected trees I am tending toward a more natural style
rather than something overly manicured and stylized--the green doughnut look.
One other thought--awhile back somebody made a comment in defense of manicured
trees that made sense, pointing out that if you were to take a photograph of a
full-sized tree that you like and reduce it and put it in a pot, you'd have a tree
that looked overly manicured. I might try that in the spring, or maybe this fall
with some local conifers I like. I'll post results in the gallery if I get that
far.
Craig Cowing
Monmouth ME
Zone 4b/5 sunset 38
Ten months of winter, two months of damned poor skiing.
Per Arne Pedersen
Sorry to say it - but the book mentioned by Anton is some kind of
philosophists book. I find it lack most of the elements it's supposed to
write about. The book has been given FAR to much publicity than it actually
talks or try to talk about. The easy and non-uncomfortable way to try to
understand Zen and the meaning of quality.
But the book is popular - so if you feel for it ; go ahead and buy it ! But
you will never learn about quality and Zen by reading this book. Sorry !
Sincerely,
Per Arne Pedersen
Bergen/Os -- Norway (Zone 7)
mailto:tele...@online.no
PS ! Maybe I'm to old to read such quasi literature..... OR maybe I was
not humble enough when reading it....
----------------- Snip --------------------
Anton Nijhuis wrote :
> There is an interesting book called "Zen and the Art of Motorcyle
> Maintenance' it is about one person's search of the definition of
'quality'.
>
> Anton
----------------- Snip --------------------
Anton Nijhuis
and define quality or other such concept. The author had a breakdown and was
committed. What I got out of the book was that don't take yourself or your
concepts too seriously.
As far as 'serious questions' go you may end up like the author or worse
like me ;)
Anton -
-----Original Message-----
From: Per Arne Pedersen [mailto:tele...@online.no]
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 7:33 AM
To: Anton Nijhuis; BON...@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject: OT : Was: Examples! - Re: Ron's "serious questions"
Hi Listmembers !
Sorry to say it - but the book mentioned by Anton is some kind of
philosophists book. I find it lack most of the elements it's supposed to
write about. The book has been given FAR to much publicity than it actually
talks or try to talk about. The easy and non-uncomfortable way to try to
understand Zen and the meaning of quality.
But the book is popular - so if you feel for it ; go ahead and buy it ! But
you will never learn about quality and Zen by reading this book. Sorry !
Sincerely,
Per Arne Pedersen
Bergen/Os -- Norway (Zone 7)
mailto:tele...@online.no
PS ! Maybe I'm to old to read such quasi literature..... OR maybe I was
not humble enough when reading it....
********************************************************************************
Patrick Alexander
> Hi Patrick,
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrick Alexander" <paal...@STEEL.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
>> ....though I will say that I'm only barely convinced that there is more
>> than one finished trident maple bonsai in the world, given as what they
>> all look pretty much the same to me (and none of them look like any maples
>> I've seen).
>> Patrick Alexander
> ------------------
> One of the things that I've read and have been taught is that rather than
> just trying to make a bonsai of a particular species look like a full-sized
> tree of that species, one should strive to bring out the unique or special
> qualities of a particular species and accentuate them.
> Trident maple has this great characteristic of being able to put on a
> massive trunk quickly and to have an almost viscous quality to is root
> formation if allowed to grow that way. Consequently, many use these
> characteristics in growing them for bonsai. This, of course, does not mean
> that all trident maples need to be massive, extreme taper specimens with
> oozing root formations, but many will because that's how they sort of prefer
> to grow. The point is, bonsai is not necessarily about trying to re-create
> the image of an actual tree in a meadow (but I've seen some that do and do
> it well).
It's not so much the trunks I find similar and un-maple-like about
most tridents, it's the triangular pseudo-pine canopies that tend to be
put on the trunks. That said, I do happen to think the huge trunks are
rather absurd...
Patrick Alexander
Alan Walker
> Liporace's tree, definitely "contemporary" style, demonstrates this approach
beautifully.
It is a nice tree, no doubt. 'Contemporary' only in the sense that it
was styled now. Other than that, it's Kimura-Japanese through and
through.
Dare I say cookie cutter? ;-)
Reiner Goebel
Toronto, Canada http://www.tbs.game2.com
I gotta get me one of those cookie cutters!
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
********************************************************************************
Alan Walker
your street or standing out in that field. Frankly, many of the trees I see around
me aren't worth trying to duplicate.
Speaking of "cookie cutter" bonsai, I could see a situation where the
copying of particular trees in nature could be condescendingly called "cookie
cutter" as well. Some of us will be more comfortable with trees which mimic those
we see in our environment. Others will prefer those which take that evocation and
transcend it. We dare to call that art.
The truth is that both preferences are perfectly legitimate. It's a matter
of tastes. If you're anything like me, you find that your tastes evolve and
fluctuate. There are some basic things which guide tastes for each of us, but
circumstances have a definite influence.
John Biel
>
>
> In the last year or so I've come to the conclusion that the point is not strictly
> to create a miniature tree, true to scale with miniature leaves (although that's
> nice when it works) but at times, depending on the species, the point of bonsai can
> also be to reproduce the dwarfing effects of the right natural conditions--growing
> on ledge or rock, constant wind, etc. In other words, to reproduce what a tree
> might look like were it to be dwarfed by nature.
Isn't this effect already being reproduced by Kimura et al?
>
>
> I guess that's why with my collected trees I am tending toward a more natural style
> rather than something overly manicured and stylized--the green doughnut look.
Is the "green doughnut" look anything like the "cookie cutter" look? Could you post
examples of what you see as a "more natural style" and the "green doughnut" (style?) ?
Many thanks.
John Biel
Toronto ON Canada
http://www.tbs.game2.com
Patrick Alexander
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrick Alexander" <paal...@STEEL.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
>> I'm not sure I see the distinction between `the artistic
>> conventions and techniques used by Japanese artists' and `the Japanese way
>> of doing bonsai'. Also, if you haven't mentioned any culturally specific
>> way of doing bonsai, why do you call bonsai a Japanese art?
> Where's the distinction problem? Is it "the Japanese way" to create bonsai
> that are aesthetically pleasing? No, it is the "good" way.
But I don't think all methods of creating bonsai that are
aesthetically pleasing are used by the Japanese. And, to my eyes, some of
the bonsai created and well-appreciated by the Japanese aren't very
aesthetically pleasing (if the first incarnation of the IBC gallery were
up I could point you to a couple of trident maples and, I think, a
Japanese black pine from a Kokufu album that fit this description :) ). So
I think the way the Japanese create bonsai and the "good way" of creating
bonsai are not the same, though there is a lot of overlap.
> Cultural labels
> are meaningless in this case. The Japanese, as a general rule (the better
> artists anyway), use good bonsai techniques. They are not Japanese
> techniques, they are good, appropriate, effective, aesthetically pleasing
> techniques. If one were to observe an American doing the right thing with
> his/her trees, it would not be relevant to say "Oh, you use Japanese
> techniques." While many Japanese bonsai can be said to be examples of
> quality bonsai, it does not follow that all good bonsai are Japanese.
Certainly it doesn't follow. However, from the fact that many
Japanese bonsai can be said to be examples of quality bonsai it also
doesn't follow that the methods the Japanese use to create bonsai are the
methods of creating good bonsai.
> The fact that bonsai as we (I?) understand it was developed, codified and
> refined in Japan makes it a Japanese art.
On the other hand, if this development, codification, and
refinement were not specific to the culture of Japan--and if they were
specific to Japan I'd have a hard time not calling the result, also,
something specific to the culture of Japan--then the art itself has
nothing in particular to do with Japan. It would then have become exactly
the entity that it is today if it had arisen among the Zulus, or the
English, or the Aztecs.
But if the codification is specific to the Japanese culture, then
the code is specific to the Japanese culture, and the bonsai are produced
by a code that is specific to the Japanese culture. Because, then, if
bonsai had been codified in America the resulting bonsai would be quite
different...
> Now, as to display, heck yes. Bonsai is an art that consists of composition
> and display. Aside from these elements, it's nothing more than container
> gardening. The proper way of displaying bonsai has little cultural
> relevance in the West. But, because bonsai is a Japanese art one adheres
> to the display conventions of the art or one does it sloppily and messes it
> up (or presents daring, unconventional elements in an attempt to effect
> change) - UNTIL a new set of conventions is established. At which point, as
> far as I'm concerned, one comes up with a new lable for the artform, because
> it will not be bonsai, it will be something else (but this is not soooo
> important). So far, no new recognized Western conventions for display have
> been forthcoming so we are still left with the Japanese art of bonsai.
My thoughts about the composition of trees and your thoughts about
their display are very similar. :) Except that I think bonsai is a
Japanese art only if you go with the Japanese conventions. It seems to me
that bonsai is just the creation of aesthetically pleasing trees in pots,
so any American conventions created for composition and/or display will
still be bonsai... they'll have the same kind of relation to the Japanese
conventions that, for instance, abstract expressionist painting has to
vanitas painting. And if no one left an established school of painting
before a new one was fully formed, new schools of painting would never be
fully formed...
> --------------------
>> I don't have any Kokufu-ten albums, actually. I've seen a few of
>> the trees from said albums on the gallery, though. :)
> --------------------
> I highly recommend that you pick one or more up. They are among the best
> teaching tools and are increadibly inspiring. Beautiful! The price is not
> too easy to swallow, but the reward is more than worth the expense. Not
> quite sure what's in stock at the moment, but www.dallasbonsai.com usually
> has a few.
Might have to get one at some point...
> --------------------
> <snip>
>>I
>> don't deny that there is agreement on these extreme cases, I just don't
>> think this agreement tells us anything about the objectivity of quality
>> in bonsai.
>> Patrick Alexander
> --------------------
> The extreme case is all that is necessary to support my point. Extreme
> cases illustrate that the good/bad distinctions exist and study of each of
> them can offer insight into what constitutes high quality and poor quality
> (in the absence of instruction). I believe that one can address the
> individual, specific characteristics of quality bonsai (technique and
> aesthetic) and leave it to the artist to use these elements in composition
> to create art.
Hrm... maybe this is just a disagreement about terms, 'cause it
seems to me that studying the bonsai that are thought well and poorly of
can offer insight into what is considered to constitute high quality and
poor quality... and changing the terminology to refer to opinions and
considerations and so forth doesn't change the practical implications
much, just gets around philosophical difficulties in saying that
distinctions people agree about become objectively existing entities...
> In fact, there is an article in the forthcoming TBE Journal
> (in 5 languages! ;-) due on January, 15. It may help to clarify or may help
> to spur further debate and disagreement. We'll see ;-)
I suppose we will see...
> I've enjoyed this discourse, Patrick.
Likewise.
Patrick Alexander
Bob Polk
of Juniper cascade pics to the Gallery in response to my request for
comments on my Juniper her offered to send me the tree free of charge
and he would pay the postage. WHAT A GUY! I politely refused as I will
be moving back across the country after I sell my house and doubt if the
trees will go with me.
Thanks Suthin, I owe you one.
Jim Lewis wrote:
> At 10:43 AM 11/4/01 -0500, Ron Martin wrote:
>
>
>> Actually there have been some pictures posted to the Gallery in the
>> past.
>> Not many comments were made about them though. Guess there was not much
>> interest there.
>
********************************************************************************
Ron Martin
> of Juniper cascade pics to the Gallery in response to my request for
> comments on my Juniper her offered to send me the tree free of charge
> and he would pay the postage. WHAT A GUY! I politely refused as I will
> be moving back across the country after I sell my house and doubt if the
> trees will go with me.
> Thanks Suthin, I owe you one.
>
I have no idea what this has to do with my original post but I must agree
Suthin is one hell of a guy. Good artist and a good man.
Ron Martin