Abuse of the term "Tribal" in the bodyart realm
CatBones
on #bodyart.
I'm not even going to TOUCH ON "tribal art", I would like to discuss
what ISN'T.
I would like to have included the chatlog, as it is the common
predictable rubbish that the average layman likes to interject as their
idea of "tribal is..." Unfortunately the conversation took place in a
personal chat and not on the channel, so the critic in question has
asked me to refrain from posting this chatlog.
Pity.
---------------
I'm going to the effort of writing this post for the benefit of
wannabe-critics who in their ignorance of art history, lump *too many*
beautiful and sophisticated european design concepts and styles together
with "TRIBAL KITSCH" that comes out of tattoo shops on a regular basis.
I will probably be catergorized as an "art snob" by some for trying to
debunk the concept of "tattoo art and how tribal kitsch ISN'T." It
won't be the first time. My intention *isn't* to define "tribal art"
(with respect for REAL tribal art,) but to seperate *other* styles of
high art that are mistaken by the layman as tribal art.
You can generalize "tribal art" if you like, I'm not going to get into
that. I'm not going to pick apart what REAL island and/or continental
based tribes did what, and when. This study isn't about whether celtic
art and, say, tribal art of polynesian/micronesian origin are unjustly
lumped into the catergory of "tribal art" - Since what I tattoo
(usually as negative space) that is referred to by the ignorant as
"tribal" is really quite directly influenced by completely NON-tribal
european art/ornament of the late 17th to late 19th century.
First I must post a few of the pieces in question, those containing
elements that some critics would lump together as "tribal." I'm not
going to take the liberty of referring to other tattoo artists' work,
though works of this nature are certainly not anything i'm doing all
alone, there are many educated artists tattooing works incorporating
similar design every day.
http://catbones.com/christy/christy_m-parrish_arm1.jpg
(art nouveau influenced negative space helices used to frame the image)
http://catbones.com/saram/saram_arm4.jpg
(art nouveau influenced negative space used to frame this shoulder cap)
http://catbones.com/tattoo/tattoos/1105big.jpg
(art nouveau influenced negative space used to both accent and frame the
imagery)
http://catbones.com/tattoo/tattoos/1205.jpg
(spirals in the negative space..)
http://catbones.com/tattoo/tattoos/0303big.jpg
(long curving negative space as well as blackwork influenced by
victorian ornamentation)
http://catbones.com/tattoo/tattoos/0605big.jpg
(art nouveau influenced negative space, background)
http://catbones.com/tattoo/tattoos/0705big.jpg
(art nouveau influenced negative space, background)
http://catbones.com/tattoo/tattoos/0802big.jpg
(art nouveau influenced negative space)
http://catbones.com/tattoo/tattoos/1003big.jpg
(art nouveau influenced negative space)
This type of negative space usage may now be everyone's cup of tea, but
i enjoy it, and some of my clientele love it too. To refer to it as
"tribal" however clearly defines the ignorance of the critic(s) in
question.
This sort of decorative negative space serves various purposes in large
tattoos. To cut down on the "density" of the design. To define borders
where none exist in the referenced art being applied. To provide
interesting use of tattooed and non tattooed skin, juxtaposing shapes
and forms with negative space borders. Some works this is accomplished
with negative space "tribal", some with negative space flames or water
or even celtic knotwork. The use of negative space in tattoo is
certainly not my own invention, though it's use isn't as widespread as
perhaps it should be, as many tattooists ignore the value of it's use.
Below is a list of links i would like to refer to for reading and
viewing samples of Victorian era and Art Nouveau works. Familiarizing
one's self with these styles will help in giving it the identity of it's
own that it deserves, and help to seperate it from the ignorantly abused
catchall, "Tribal", which it is not.
You will find no "tribal" here. Neither authentic tribal art, nor
"American tattooed tribal KITSCH."
Definitions and written reference:
http://www.cl.utoledo.edu/canaday/artsandcrafts/roots.html
http://www.allsands.com/Art/artnouveau_toh_gn.htm
http://www.nga.gov/education/tchan_6.htm
Architectural use of "like" ornamentation:
http://members.aol.com/hadenkman/nouveau.htm
(Crown moulding and trim showing Victorian/Gothic influenced ornament:)
http://www.flexiblemoulding.com/products_trim.html
http://www.flexiblemoulding.com/products_decorations.html
Art Nouveau/Victorian/Gothic/Baroque references:
http://infinity.sequoias.cc.ca.us/art/strong/modules/apprec3/3clivalb/default.html
http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=ornamentation
http://www.postershow.com/art_nouveau_poster/poster_art.htm
http://www.breakingart.com/bam/citiesoftheworld/paris/paris.php
http://www.postershow.com/art_nouveau_poster/poster_art.htm
http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=Victorian
Glossary:
---------
Helices: Helical or spiraled ornamentation.
Victorian: Being in the highly ornamented, massive style of
architecture, decor, and furnishings popular in 19th-century England.
Art Nouveau: A style of decoration and architecture of the late 19th and
early 20th centuries, characterized particularly by the depiction of
leaves and flowers in flowing, sinuous lines.
Kitsch: This term refers to the "low-art" artifacts of everyday life.
Paintings of Elvis on velvet, lamps from the statue of David,
and clocks in statues of Budda. The term comes from the
German verkitschen meaning "to make cheap." It has been
made popular in the years since the beginning of pop art.
These objects are now revered by collectors as "camp" making
low art into high art.
Critic: 1.One who forms and expresses judgments of the merits, faults,
value, or truth of a matter.
2.Abbr. crit. One who specializes especially professionally in
the evaluation and appreciation of literary or artistic
works: a film critic; a dance critic.
3.One who tends to make harsh or carping judgments; a
faultfinder.
thanks for your time,
Cat
---
oO$8$Oo.,oo,.oO$$88$Oo
8$:` .8$$8. ';8$'
8$. ,8$ $8, :8$
`8$$..8$o..o$8..;8$
http://www.catbones.com/
John McGrail
(a bunch 'o stuff snipped here because I'm going to respond to the overall
sentiment rather than any individual snippet)
When I'm talking with my coworkers (many of whom are unadorned) I have no
trouble letting them refer to my tattoos as tribal. In fact, when I have to,
I call my own art tribal (both of my tattoos come from my own artwork).
Somedays I even hesitate to call my stuff art. Many would call it abstract
blackwork. My sister called the similar stuff I produce "wallpaper." And,
she's an artist whose opinion I respect. That fact that she finds it too busy
and somewhat trite doesn't stop me from producing more.
I run into similar situations in my industry. What's a server after all? The
hardware? Or the software that runs on it? Depends on whether you're talking
to the sys admin or the database admin. I consider what I do mostly QC. But,
the industry has considered me a QA engineer for years.
I wouldn't call you an art-snob because you don't like your art nouveau
inspired backgrounds being called tribal. But, I would call you a bit
pedantic. After all, language is not static. It evolves. What's the harm in
allowing people to call your backgrounds tribal? It's just a label. Labels
are silly.
--
Tabaqui
John McGrail wrote:
> inspired backgrounds being called tribal. But, I would call you a bit
> pedantic. After all, language is not static. It evolves. What's the harm in
> allowing people to call your backgrounds tribal? It's just a label. Labels
But.... I don't much care to have my background negative
space/nouveau inspired stuff called 'tribal' either... I
have a wonderful bear sort of 'howling' or 'singing' up to a
full moon on my back. Just the head of the bear. Everyone
sort of glances at it and says 'cool wolf'. It doesn't LOOK
like a wolf. It's OBVIOULY a bear. But they see 'moon' +
'animal' = 'wolf' and don't even bother to examine it more
closely... Make me wonder if they're REALLY seeing my back
at all.
I don't really care for tribal, it's not a style i would
have on me, so...silly as it may seem....Don't Call My Stuff
Tribal!
Just because it's an abstract shape that isn't a pictoral
image doesn't make it TRIBAL....
TQ
CatBones
> Somedays I even hesitate to call my stuff art. Many would call it abstract
> blackwork. My sister called the similar stuff I produce "wallpaper." And,
> she's an artist whose opinion I respect. That fact that she finds it too busy
> and somewhat trite doesn't stop me from producing more.
I feel much the same - it's not ART (as in academic definition, there's
no expression based on the experience and emotions of the tattoo
"artist" putting on that sort of work..) to me either - It's Ornament.
It's decoration. There's nothing wrong with that, that's a good thing,
decorating one's self is a wonderful reason to be tattooed! Letting an
artist express their imagination and their desire to make impress their
ideas and statements CERTAINLY isn't for everyone.
> I run into similar situations in my industry. What's a server after all? The
> hardware? Or the software that runs on it? Depends on whether you're talking
> to the sys admin or the database admin. I consider what I do mostly QC. But,
> the industry has considered me a QA engineer for years.
Well, that's over my head, but I'll assume there's a paralell to what i
was saying in there. ;)
> I wouldn't call you an art-snob because you don't like your art nouveau
> inspired backgrounds being called tribal. But, I would call you a bit
> pedantic. After all, language is not static. It evolves. What's the harm in
> allowing people to call your backgrounds tribal? It's just a label. Labels
> are silly.
It's simply a case of putting too many things from too many cultures
into the same box, that's all.
"Tribal art" deserves the respect of having it's own name, it's own
identity, and the legacy that comes with it deserves to be kept seperate
from the kazillion other things the average tattooed sheep thinks
they're getting when they order up a "tribal" armband. Tribal Kitsch.
European art which contains absolutely NO influence from these genuine
tribal cultures ALSO deserves the respect of having it's own identity.
Maybe it *is* just ornament and not art, but it doesn't deserve to be
lumped into this terrible catergory we feed the fad-hungry masses with
calling it "tribal", a vast catergory which we esentially put everything
into that isn't an iconographic/pictoral image or written word.
It's a big trough to draw in the herd animals: the "tribal" fad rages
on.
Artists like myself try to show the uneducated customer other options
aside from faux "tribal" - zippy, silly, Johnny Shaw looking "tribal" -
and expose them to equally (or even more) attractive art/ornament that
more likely comes from their OWN euro ancestry. (as is usually the
case..)
I think appreciating the cultural divide in this sort of work requires
giving different styles their own identity and thir own lables.
To ignore the difference, to me, just says "I'd rather just remain
ignorant and get my tattoo put on, thank you."
I appreciate your feedback on this issue.
regards,
CatBones
> artist express their imagination and their desire to make impress their
> ideas and statements CERTAINLY isn't for everyone.
Well THAT was real coherent.
Sorry about the bad syntax, i hope you followed me anyhow. ;)
I spent too many hours today "make impressing" my ideas and statements
or something, i'm tired. Heheh.
cheers!
the house of unlocked doors
an ice cube up my spine to get my attention and said:
(snipness)
| Artists like myself try to show the uneducated customer other options
| aside from faux "tribal" - zippy, silly, Johnny Shaw looking "tribal" -
| and expose them to equally (or even more) attractive art/ornament that
| more likely comes from their OWN euro ancestry. (as is usually the
| case..)
|
| I think appreciating the cultural divide in this sort of work requires
| giving different styles their own identity and thir own lables.
|
| To ignore the difference, to me, just says "I'd rather just remain
| ignorant and get my tattoo put on, thank you."
i appreciate the abstraction available in figurative "tribal". i have
a pair of tribal dragons on my back, & i love the fact that they
contain crescent moons. this sort of thing is harder to do with a
light hand in figurative work from the european traditions i've seen;
i also didn't want celtic for that piece. blackwork like figurative
tribal gives an artist or client the option of... well, of adding
elements that might not work as part of a clearly figurative piece or
a non-figurative abstract piece.
that being said, if i ever got non-figurative blackwork, i'd have the
artist draw it on me with a marker, not pick something from the wall;
that way it'd fit my musculature & body shape.
as far as the word "tribal" goes, i think it's useful as a label for a
style, but wish a different word had caught on ("hey!! look at my
nifty new hobarty lizard!!@"). blackwork isn't often tribal; the
stuff i consider tribal usually is attached to, you know, a tribe.
my $0.02.
cassie
--
"too bad dark languages rarely survive."
-johnny truant, "hey pretty: just another drive"
Mimp
>But.... I don't much care to have my background negative
>space/nouveau inspired stuff called 'tribal' either... I
>have a wonderful bear sort of 'howling' or 'singing' up to a
>full moon on my back. Just the head of the bear. Everyone
>sort of glances at it and says 'cool wolf'. It doesn't LOOK
>like a wolf. It's OBVIOULY a bear. But they see 'moon' +
>'animal' = 'wolf' and don't even bother to examine it more
>closely... Make me wonder if they're REALLY seeing my back
>at all.
I have to agree TQ.
It'a hard for me to put into words, but some people just can't think outside the
lines if you will.
As an example, the tattoo on my abdomen is a black work design, but countless
people have asked me " what is it?", " Is it an ant?", " Is that some kind
of symbol?", " Nice tribal!" It seems some people just can't look at a picture
or design without nailing down what it is supposed to be.The same people seem
confused when I tell them that is isn't supposed to BE anything - it's just a
design.
I see it at work too, ( I do artwork for a store ) sometimes people will watch
me work and the first thing out of their mouths is, " what's it supposed to
be?". Unless it's very obviously a bunch of grapes or an apple or something,
some people can't even begin to try and think of what it might be, or is going
to be. I think the slack jawed " what is it?" question irks me more than any
other question in regards to my tattoos or artwork.
It's as if some people can't pay attention to something *even when they're
looking right at it*.
Very weird.
So point being, to some any tattoo involving black or swirlies will always be a
"tribal".
Any animal howling at the moon is a wolf, any kanji is "chinese writing", etc.
Unless thay are told differently, then they just get confused.
I think it's perfectly OK to be annoyed when someone calls your design "tribal"
when it's not, just don't expect that people will ever drop that atrocious,
over-used term.
:D
Mimp
Tabaqui
Mimp wrote:
> or design without nailing down what it is supposed to be.The same people seem
> confused when I tell them that is isn't supposed to BE anything - it's just a
> design.
> It's as if some people can't pay attention to something *even when they're
> looking right at it*.
Bwahahahhaha
Exaclty. It's like they have to catagorize it in order to
appreciate/experience it, and once they've catagorized it,
they're free to move on, totally ignore anything you say,
and refer to your tattoo/art in terms that completelyl
misrepresent it, but make sense to their equally ignorant
friends/family.
O well. I kinda like MAKING people look at my back until
they see the bear. I act all upset. 'It's a BEAR! My
spiritual GUARDIAN! Now he'll have to rip your soul out and
EAT IT!!'
Hehehe
TQ
i'll teach you to turn away.
T> ....Don't Call My Stuff Tribal!
YOU GOTTA KNOW THAT THAT'LL NEVER DO
YOU KNOW I DON'T HAVE TAZ TATTOOS
IT'S TIME YOU LEARNED IT'S NOT ALL TRIBAL
MY SKIN'S ART NOUVEAU
SO DON'T CALL MY STUFF TRIBAL
lish
cr...@santacruz.org
34.6% / 26
Thiem
<snip>
> looking right at it*.
> Very weird.
forearm. I get a LOT of "hey dude, nice harley tattoo".
Of course, it is orange and black factory style letters.
Robin
scott bock
> Yep- I'm a Harley mechanic, and I have "HARDLEY DANGEROUS"
down my right
> forearm. I get a LOT of "hey dude, nice harley tattoo".
> Of course, it is orange and black factory style letters.
what exactly is "hardley dangerous"? unless, of course, it's
misspelled.
LadyJ
Your tattoo is spelled wrong.
Jess
--
"Sometimes, when I'm told to use my own discretion, if no one is looking
I'll use someone else's. But I always put it back." - George Carlin
---------------------------------------------------------------
LadyJ is available at www.ladyj.net and fine stores everywhere.
Thiem
>
> On Fri, 04 May 2001 19:44:08 -0500, Thiem <rth...@kc.net> wrote:
>
> >Mimp wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> It's as if some people can't pay attention to something *even when they're
> >> looking right at it*.
> >> Very weird.
> >Yep- I'm a Harley mechanic, and I have "HARDLEY DANGEROUS" down my right
> >forearm. I get a LOT of "hey dude, nice harley tattoo".
> >Of course, it is orange and black factory style letters.
>
> Your tattoo is spelled wrong.
8)
Robin
Thiem
posted. HARDLY DANGEROUS. OK?
Jeeze, some people shouldn't be allowed to operate a keyboard.
Robin ;)
Tabaqui
"i'll teach you to turn away." wrote:
>
> Tabaqui <chang...@catbones.com> wrote:
> T> ....Don't Call My Stuff Tribal!
>
> YOU GOTTA KNOW THAT THAT'LL NEVER DO
> YOU KNOW I DON'T HAVE TAZ TATTOOS
> IT'S TIME YOU LEARNED IT'S NOT ALL TRIBAL
> MY SKIN'S ART NOUVEAU
> SO DON'T CALL MY STUFF TRIBAL
>
Muttered to the tune of what??
TQ
CatBones
> Muttered to the tune of what??
TUNE?!
I thought Lish was tonedeaf. <?> =P
Jim Mowreader
> OK, proof once again I'm a dumbass. I forgot to look at my arm before I
> posted. HARDLY DANGEROUS. OK?
I kinda liked it better as Hardley Dangerous. The E would be silent, like
the E in Harley. It's in the Harley font, so it carries through the Harley
theme.
--
--jmowreader
xd...@mindspring.com
http://www.macsalon.org
Unsubscribing Instructions: http://www.macsalon.org/howtos/unsub.html
i'll teach you to turn away.
T> "i'll teach you to turn away." wrote:
> MY SKIN'S ART NOUVEAU
> SO DON'T CALL MY STUFF TRIBAL
it's this godawful "don't call me baby" song that repeatedly
attempts to destroy my soul at work. i'm sure napster has it. if you have
a "the best mix of the eighties, nineties, & today" station in your area,
listen for about fifteen minutes. i'm sure it'll come on.
i'll teach you to turn away.
C> Tabaqui wrote:
> Muttered to the tune of what??
C> I thought Lish was tonedeaf. <?> =P
i can't play instruments worth a damn. i can, however, sing fairly
well.
Tabaqui
"i'll teach you to turn away." wrote:
> it's this godawful "don't call me baby" song that repeatedly
> attempts to destroy my soul at work. i'm sure napster has it. if you have
> a "the best mix of the eighties, nineties, & today" station in your area,
See, this is where i have the advantage, because i don't
listen to the radio. I hate it. The music sucks and the
DJ's appear to all have stoped developing mentally at about
age 13.
So, i don't have a CLUE what this song is. Is it new? Who
sings it? Maybe that'll help.
Then again.... You should just sing it into a mic and send
me the .wav, hehehe
TQ
Siobhan
> it's this godawful "don't call me baby" song that repeatedly
> attempts to destroy my soul at work.
Oh gods, it's spreading. Assuming you're talking about Madison Avenue, that
is. They're Australian, possibly our worst musical export since...um...I
dunno. They're worse than Savage Garden even. They performed Don't Call Me
Baby at the ARIAs, and she made the mistake of singing live, and was at
least a quarter-tone out of tune at all times. It was so embarrassing to
watch.
Siobhan
--
The second confusing thing about Australia is the animals. They can be
divided into three categories: Poisonous, Odd, and Sheep. - Douglas Adams
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/donttellmewhatsizeimustb
Paul
"Siobhan" <mot...@SPAMtartarus.uwa.edu.au> wrote
> Oh gods, it's spreading. Assuming you're talking about Madison Avenue,
that
> is. They're Australian, possibly our worst musical export since...um...I
> dunno. They're worse than Savage Garden even. They performed Don't Call Me
> Baby at the ARIAs, and she made the mistake of singing live, and was at
> least a quarter-tone out of tune at all times. It was so embarrassing to
> watch.
I made the god awful mistake of watching the ARIA's that night... Never
again...
That chick from MA sounded best when she drank the water... It shut her up
for 10 seconds at least!
Pauly
G. Fenstermacher
"the house of unlocked doors" <goodms0...@wfu.edu> wrote in message
news:3af2689b....@news.CIS.DFN.DE...
> as far as the word "tribal" goes, i think it's useful as a label for a
I just refer to the things on my body of that nature as "tribal-esque."
I don't like the word, since it implies what it is or may be as something
its not, but I'm not nearly pretentious enough to refer to things as
"art-nouveau," so it'll have to work for me.
Besides, its become a generic term like "workstation."
Tabaqui
"G. Fenstermacher" wrote:
> its not, but I'm not nearly pretentious enough to refer to things as
> "art-nouveau," so it'll have to work for me.
It's 'pretentious' to call something what it is?
Whatever....
TQ
CatBones
> I just refer to the things on my body of that nature as "tribal-esque."
If you have things of that nature on your body (art nouveau decoration)
the it shuold be important enough to you to WANT to use the proper
terminology. At least *i* would.
To me, that attitude is as piss poor as people getting kanji tattoos and
not realling knowing exactly WHAT they say for a fact, or even what
language it is.
> Besides, its become a generic term like "workstation."
That's *ignorance*, does that validate it?
It's only become a "generic term" because the masses of tattoo 'herd
animals' accept it as so. It's not fucking tribal. It doesn't even LOOK
LIKE TRIBAL.
regards,
CatBones
Kavin Taylor
>
> <snip>
but I'm not nearly pretentious enough to refer to things as
> "art-nouveau," so it'll have to work for me.
So, someone who can tell the difference between art nouveau and
art deco is pretentious? Notice I did not put "tribal" in there.
It's not pretentious to call something what it is.
You are a decked.
I'm not being pretentious.
Kavin
John McGrail
>
>To me, that attitude is as piss poor as people getting kanji tattoos and
>not realling knowing exactly WHAT they say for a fact, or even what
>language it is.
>
way it looks? I have to be aware that it really means "eat at al's" to
appreciate it for it's artistic merits?
>> Besides, its become a generic term like "workstation."
>
>That's *ignorance*, does that validate it?
>It's only become a "generic term" because the masses of tattoo 'herd
>animals' accept it as so. It's not fucking tribal. It doesn't even LOOK
>LIKE TRIBAL.
>
Language evolves. Context is important. When you use words like "ignorance"
and "masses" and "herd animals", you come off as pretentious and you isolate
yourself. _To you_ it's not tribal. The layman is not hung up on your
vocabulary. That doesn't make the layman ignorant or a herd animal. It just
means they're not as into the distinction and categorization that you are.
Take a techno music or industrial music for a couple of other examples. There
is a myriad of substyles within each of those broad categories. When talking
to someone who's into country music, it's probably a waste of time to try to
explain the differences between drum & bass vs. jungle. To somone who
DJs raves every weekend, the distinction is much more important and much more
understandable.
Eskimos and snow is another good example ...
http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/eskimo_words_for_snow_derby.html
It's just snow to me.
I'd rather try to find some common ground within which to talk to someone
completely outside my circle than alienate them by insisting they learn my
terms and my history, and looking down on them when they are unwilling to see
it my way. Better to draw them in, and educate them.
It's still tribal to me ;-0
--
CatBones
> Take a techno music or industrial music for a couple of other examples. There
"Techno music" and "industrial music" at least evolved within the same
culture. I can see that.
I can't see giving art from one hemishpere credit due to art from the
other. We're talking apples and oranges here. Applying euro influenced
Art Nouvea to the skin with american methods, and say, Polynesian
tattooing - GODDAMNED MASSIVE difference. Not subtle differences.
I disagree. There is a point where "language evolves" is a bullshit
excuse for ignorance.
regards,
Cat
Kavin Taylor
>
> > You are a decked.
>
Should have said "dickhead."
See. Not pretentious; challenged.
Kavin
Keith Alexander
<kav...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>See. Not pretentious; challenged.
*** And overworked.
Fucked thing, I read it as Dickhead.
---
k e i t h . a l e x a n d e r
http://www.modernamerican.com
http://www.nootrope.net
-- e n d . t r a n s m i s s i o n --
Tabaqui
John McGrail wrote:
> Eskimos and snow is another good example ...
> http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/eskimo_words_for_snow_derby.html
> It's just snow to me.
No, it's snow, or sleet, or freezing rain, or hail, or
flurries, blizzards, squalls, etc. We have seperate
descriptive words for seperate things, and 'art nouveau' and
'tribal' are totally different things. It IS ignorence to
say otherwise - are tattoos and brandings the same thing?
They are both (mostly) permanent marks on the skin...
TQ
i'll teach you to turn away.
T> descriptive words for seperate things, and 'art nouveau' and
T> 'tribal' are totally different things. It IS ignorence to
T> say otherwise - are tattoos and brandings the same thing?
T> They are both (mostly) permanent marks on the skin...
brandings & tattoos are different in many ways & you know it.
texture, color, introduction of foreign elements, to name a few. but cat's
"art nouveau" swirls, regardless of their origin, look exactly like much
of the "neo-tribal" flash i've seen hanging on shop walls. hell, isn't
much of that same flash hanging on CAT'S walls?
[you can excuse the last bit if cat's redecorated since buying out
fay's - when i was there, the walls were covered in roses & clowns &
dolphins & crap. "i want B-13 on my shoulderblade!"]
when you're talking two types of art (in this case, "art nouveau"
swirls & "neo-tribal" swirls) that are rendered identically (in a 2-d
format with a tattoo machine), the end result is going to be two identical
pieces of work. yes, most "neo-tribal" is foreground blackwork. yes, cat's
"art nouveau" is negative background space. ignoring that single
discrepancy, the question is: are cat's swirls any different visually from
neo-tribal swirls?
no, they're not.
& even if you DON'T want to ignore the above discrepancy, nick
wiggins has a piece on his site with foreground negative neo-tribal work
on a background of roses - are you going to tell me that's art nouveau,
too? it's not. he designed it, & he calls it neo-tribal. going on cat's
declaration of "a piece is what inspired it", it's therefore neo-tribal.
& by thus, your definitions don't matter.
tattoo work is far too in-the-moment to bugger this conversation
any longer. it is what it appears to be, & that changes as bodies age. it
appears to be neo-tribal. so i'm going to continue to call it that until
you can PROVE that it ISN'T. i won't hold my breath.
CatBones
> "art nouveau" is negative background space. ignoring that single
> discrepancy, the question is: are cat's swirls any different visually from
> neo-tribal swirls?
>
> no, they're not.
Yes they are, not by matter of opinion, but by matter of fact.
> on a background of roses - are you going to tell me that's art nouveau,
> too? it's not. he designed it, & he calls it neo-tribal. going on cat's
> declaration of "a piece is what inspired it", it's therefore neo-tribal.
I haven't seen it, but I can generally tell at a glance where the
influece is from, show it to me.
Evidentally you CAN'T tell the difference, so, what, you don't believe I
can?
> tattoo work is far too in-the-moment to bugger this conversation
> any longer. it is what it appears to be, & that changes as bodies age. it
> appears to be neo-tribal. so i'm going to continue to call it that until
> you can PROVE that it ISN'T. i won't hold my breath.
I gave ample evidence in my initial post in this thread, visual
evidence, of what art nouveau work looks like. If you can't see the
difference, then you are artistically impaired. I'm sorry about that.
Cat
Tabaqui
"i'll teach you to turn away." wrote:
> brandings & tattoos are different in many ways & you know it.
> texture, color, introduction of foreign elements, to name a few. but cat's
> "art nouveau" swirls, regardless of their origin, look exactly like much
Art Nouveau being an art style practiced by European and
American artists around the turn of the century, and Tribal,
as i understand it, being the aboriginal marks of status and
achievement of a particular tribe (or tribes) of people, i
would say that they are as different as tattooing and
branding.
> & by thus, your definitions don't matter.
Very nice attitude. You havn't proved a thing to me,
either.
> you can PROVE that it ISN'T. i won't hold my breath.
A going-on-purple Lish might be kinda cute.
TQ
CatBones
> would say that they are as different as tattooing and
> branding.
..Especially when you consider that the tribal tattoo we're theorizing
about was an artform designed to BE tattoo, whereas art nouveau was
designed to ornament paper, wood, stone, etc, anything BUT bodies.
It just works out that it makes for good body adornment.
And I can tell the difference by sight.
--
Nina Baltes
> That's *ignorance*, does that validate it?
> It's only become a "generic term" because the masses of tattoo 'herd
> animals' accept it as so. It's not fucking tribal. It doesn't even LOOK
> LIKE TRIBAL.
Let's all just call it "Ornamentic" and be done with it :P.
Nina
--
http://chaotropic.net
C'est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot.
Louis Pasteur
John McGrail
>
>I can't see giving art from one hemishpere credit due to art from the
>other. We're talking apples and oranges here. Applying euro influenced
>Art Nouvea to the skin with american methods, and say, Polynesian
>tattooing - GODDAMNED MASSIVE difference. Not subtle differences.
>
>I disagree. There is a point where "language evolves" is a bullshit
>excuse for ignorance.
>
to discuss both. It happens all the time. In many languages, the same word
can even have diametrically opposed meanings. Take "wicked" for example.
On the one hand I applaud you for taking the time to point out the
distinctions you care about. On the other hand, I realize you'll ultimately
fail in trying to educate because of the way you choose to teach. Which is
too bad.
The first couple of things that went through my mind when I saw Saram's new
tattoo ...
"Wow! That's slick."
"I like the rundown city portion."
"Nice tribal background too".
Never did I think "nice art nouveau inspired background."
I guess I'll go run with the ignorant herd now.
--
John McGrail
>"i'll teach you to turn away." wrote:
>
>> "art nouveau" is negative background space. ignoring that single
>> discrepancy, the question is: are cat's swirls any different visually from
>> neo-tribal swirls?
>>
>> no, they're not.
>
>Yes they are, not by matter of opinion, but by matter of fact.
>
NOT! YES THEY ARE! NO THEY ARE NOT!!!
/black eye
You showed evidence, not facts. Your evidence, in my opinion, shows that your
tribal backgrounds are art nouvea inspired. The fact that I include your
backgrounds in one of my many definitions of the word tribal does not make me
ignorant.
Your insistance that language be static, and that the things that you feel
religious fervor for have descriptive, distinct and all encompassing labels
makes you the ignorant one.
--
G. Fenstermacher
"CatBones" <catb...@acid.org> wrote in message
news:3AF9DD6C...@acid.org...
> "Techno music" and "industrial music" at least evolved within the same
> culture. I can see that.
So, what about music in general?
Its easier for me to tell a non-fan that I listen to "noise industrial
music" rather than answering "post-industrial German musique concrete."
Its easier for someone to tell me "classical music" than "baroque Italian
arias and operettas."
So, why's it different to say, "I like tribal-esque tattoos" instead of "I
like European influenced art-neuvou done in an American style" (if for no
other reason than I can spell tribal, but I can't spell art-neuvou).
There's needless details that aren't needed in post-industrial German
musique concrete when someone would rather be told "noise industrial" so
they can go back to listening to their Counting Crows albums. And I'd rather
be told "classical Italian music" than the above, too.
> I can't see giving art from one hemishpere credit due to art from the
> other. We're talking apples and oranges here. Applying euro influenced
We're not talking art from one hemisphere and the other, we're talking about
people walking around with tattoos they've gotten in the last fifty years in
a modern tattoo studio.
> Art Nouvea to the skin with american methods, and say, Polynesian
> tattooing - GODDAMNED MASSIVE difference. Not subtle differences.
Sure is a massive difference to you, an artist, a tattooist, and an avid
purist.
To me? Little practical difference. Then, I don't know art, but I know what
I like.
> I disagree. There is a point where "language evolves" is a bullshit
> excuse for ignorance.
So, you've never referred to a tissue as a Kleenex, a cola as a Coke or a
Pepsi, and a office copier machine as a Xerox machine?
I find that very hard to believe.
CatBones
> >Yes they are, not by matter of opinion, but by matter of fact.
> tribal backgrounds are art nouvea inspired. The fact that I include your
> backgrounds in one of my many definitions of the word tribal does not make me
> ignorant.
The *fact* is, there is a BIG difference between tribal art and art
nouveau. That isn't a statement of opinion, John. For anyone to be given
the two and shown the difference and still cling to the concept that
"they're too similar to distinguish" only shows that a) they don't want
to admit they can see any difference or b) they suffer from some "visual
malady" similar to the aural concept of "tonedeafness."
> Your insistance that language be static, and that the things that you feel
> religious fervor for have descriptive, distinct and all encompassing labels
> makes you the ignorant one.
I stand by the notion that we should *want* to respect the different
cultures and their accheivements by giving them each their credit due.
To lump them in together is disrepectful and ignorant.
To distinguish between the two, imo, shows respect for the seperate
cultural accheivements, and it shows that the indivdual who makes the
distiction has more respect for tattoo art in general, above that of the
common commercialized tattoo collector.
regards,
CatBones
> So, what about music in general?
What about "art in general?"
Ahahahahaha.
Massive concepts to generalize.
> Its easier for me to tell a non-fan that I listen to "noise industrial
> music" rather than answering "post-industrial German musique concrete."
If you tell my dad, and let him listen to it, he'll tell you the same
thing Lish said in her post..
"I can't tell the difference."
Because he CAN'T or because he doesn't care to? I'm inclined to think
the latter.
I believe that if one CARES that they can learn to distinguish between
the two, whether we're discussing visual ornamentation or industrial
music.
> Its easier for someone to tell me "classical music" than "baroque Italian
> arias and operettas."
It's EASIER, I'm not arguing the ease of sloppy language.
You and I, though, can tell the difference in, say, Rossini and Wagner
when we hear an opera. Why? Because we are educated in such a way as to
be able to distinguish not just the sound of two languages being sung,
but also the very style of the music. We can listen to the overatures
from a german and italian opera, ohne worte, and still tell the
difference, because there *is* a real differnce, not one that can only
be asserted by muttering about opinions.
As someone who cares about the art of tattoo, I feel compelled to show
people the differences in bodyart that they have been taught "*not* to
see" by persons who are lazy in their language, or who lack education
themselves. People tattoo kaka on everyday and tell their customer it's
"tribal." To me that is a rediculous concept. When tattooists promote
the same fallacy, it's rediculous to me.
Someone mentioned Nick Wiggins, then someone ELSE (via email) pointed
this out to me:
http://www.themarkofcain.com/we04001.htm
Terrific case to use as an example!
My first question to the individual calling this 'tribal' is "WHAT
FUCKING TRIBE?" I'm not the final expert on tribal art, I'll admit that,
but I am more educated than the average man, and I've never seen this
cookie cutter looking crap in my studies of tribal art. It's an insult
to the concept of tribal art. Yet American tattooists continue to weave
this faux tribal shit into the skin and teach their clients that they're
getting TRIBAL. That's a clear case of "Cubic Zirconium versus diamond."
(The main difference being, zirconium LOOKS like a diamond at a glance,
this shit looks nothing like tribal, no longer how short the take is..)
> So, why's it different to say, "I like tribal-esque tattoos" instead of "I
> like European influenced art-neuvou done in an American style" (if for no
> other reason than I can spell tribal, but I can't spell art-neuvou).
Chiefly, it shows a) education b) respect for the cultures that they
came from, c) the individual's love for the body ART he or she is
wearing. There are other differences, but these, to me, are paramount.
Even if the individual wearing this theoretical work HAS no respect for
the cultures, there should be a desire to know what the fuck he or she
is wearing on their own body for the rest of their fucking life. I find
the idea of getting things tattooed onto one's self and not even knowing
what they are pretty rediculous, personslly. *That* last notion is of
course a matter of my own opinion. A herd animal, on the other hand,
when struck with a hot iron, only bellows in pain. It doesn't care what
the image is, all it knows is it hurt and it seemed to leave a mark.
That's excusable with a goddamned COW.
> We're not talking art from one hemisphere and the other, we're talking about
> people walking around with tattoos they've gotten in the last fifty years in
> a modern tattoo studio.
I'm talking about the evolution of American tattooing, actually.
As with everything else, how America absorbs the products of other
cultures and fuses them together, in most cases stripping away
identities and historical value, but then that's American commercialism,
right? To a "T".
Next thing you know, they'll be telling us to call Tissue paper Kleenex
and we'll do it. "Mooooooo."
> So, you've never referred to a tissue as a Kleenex, a cola as a Coke or a
> Pepsi, and a office copier machine as a Xerox machine?
I won't use the word "never" in this instance, but I can say I try to
make a conscious choice to call things by their appropriate name, yeah.
I only BUY xerox, coke, and kleenex though, so that makes it easier
around the shop. ;)
Mooooo.
---
CatBones
> On the one hand I applaud you for taking the time to point out the
> distinctions you care about. On the other hand, I realize you'll ultimately
> fail in trying to educate because of the way you choose to teach. Which is
> too bad.
Sorry John, I chopped too fast when I replied to you and forgot to
respond to this portion of your post.
If I were a teacher, I would approach teaching in a more gentle way.
I am an artist, I am payed to paint and tattoo, and I do those in a kind
and benevolent manner.
In this "arena" called RAB, I have no responsibility to teach anything,
what I offer is free information, and I do not feel compelled to candy
coat it or administer it to those who care to read it in a benevolent or
philanthropic manner.
<HERE, IT'S WATER, DRINK IT IF YOU'RE THIRSTY.>
When I tattoo someone and I educate them as to the origins of the art
they choose, or in the concepts or history of tattoo in general, I am
much more 'kind and gentle' about it.
There are several people here who can vouch for my "nice guy" mannerisms
IRL. =)
regards,
Cat
---
Sara
> When I tattoo someone and I educate them as to the origins of the art
> they choose, or in the concepts or history of tattoo in general, I am
> much more 'kind and gentle' about it.
> There are several people here who can vouch for my "nice guy" mannerisms
> IRL. =)
:D
Cat's an awesome nice guy. Even when he was dealing with quitting smoking,
he was a nice guy.
I've never seen someone say "eatabowlofdick" with a bigger grin on his
face.
Sara
--
saram AT wam.umd.edu
http://iam.bmezine.com/?saram
[make my address kosher to reply]
23% teeny bop, 44% sleaze, 59% nasty
Sara
> The first couple of things that went through my mind when I saw Saram's new
> tattoo ...
> "Wow! That's slick."
> "I like the rundown city portion."
> "Nice tribal background too".
>
> Never did I think "nice art nouveau inspired background."
/me cries
IT'S NOT TRIBAL@#@!!@!@!!
/me smacks John around with my 15-pound Art Nouveau exhibition catalog
I know how it goes, though, and really can't fight all of the opinions
that I have two "tribal" tattoos. I know they're not, and that's what
matters. :D
Tabaqui
Nina Baltes wrote:
> Let's all just call it "Ornamentic" and be done with it :P.
Ornamentic!!
No way.
I'd have people at tattoo conventins saying 'Ornamentic? Is
that like Japanese?'
You betcha.
TQ
Tabaqui
"G. Fenstermacher" wrote:
> Its easier for someone to tell me "classical music" than "baroque Italian
> arias and operettas."
But are you too stubborn (or too dumb?! surely not) to LEARN
the difference? It's all about education, you know, this
whole discussion, and everybody who is saying 'there is no
difference' is confusing me, because why wouldn't you want
to LEARN that there is?
It's like blithely going about your day calling every car a
'Chevy'. Well, they do all have four wheels and a
combustion engine, but they're NOT all Chevys'... And it
isn't TOO hard to learn the difference. At the very least,
learn the difference so that you can tell people who ask
what kind of car...errr, tattoo, YOU have...
TQ
Tabaqui
Sara wrote:
> IT'S NOT TRIBAL@#@!!@!@!!
>
> /me smacks John around with my 15-pound Art Nouveau exhibition catalog
Hey, i've got about four hard-back Art Nouveau collections
that could REALLY do some damage!!
:) Tribal, BAH!
TQ
G. Fenstermacher
"Tabaqui" <chang...@catbones.com> wrote in message
news:3AFACF14...@catbones.com...
> But are you too stubborn (or too dumb?! surely not) to LEARN
> the difference? It's all about education, you know, this
OK, I recognize that swirly art spirials are NOT based on any classic tribal
artwork, and are in fact based on art neuvoau from European artists.
However, whether its based on drawings from Maori in NZ or spirals from the
French in Paris, it's still all "tribalesque," or "neo-tribal" (which is a
far better word) to me.
And since most people who opt for the above are not going to be Maori, then
it doesn't matter what tribe they may or may not be from, it's still
neo-tribal, tribalesque, pseudotribal, or whatever, art.
> whole discussion, and everybody who is saying 'there is no
> difference' is confusing me, because why wouldn't you want
> to LEARN that there is?
OK, there's a difference. However, I think most will continue to go around
referring to it as vaguely tribal, in whatever form they choose the word to
take.
I know I will. ANd, on a day, should someone ever say, "dude, what natives
actually drew those cool swirly lines" I'll have to tell them, "well, none.
its more of modern European concept" and that'll be that.
And then both of us will continue to call it tribalesque. :)
CatBones
> OK, I recognize that swirly art spirials are NOT based on any classic tribal
> artwork, and are in fact based on art neuvoau from European artists.
You've admitted this much, you really CAN see the difference!
You're well on your way not to knowing what the hell you're talking
about! Congrats!
> However, whether its based on drawings from Maori in NZ or spirals from the
> French in Paris, it's still all "tribalesque," or "neo-tribal" (which is a
> far better word) to me.
Which 19th century Parisian TRIBE are you referring to then?
Neo-Tribal, "New Tribal"?
We ornament a person's body with European high art, and suddenly they're
a part of a "new tribe?"
Sounds like a convenient stretch to me, or just sloppy language.
> OK, there's a difference. However, I think most will continue to go around
> referring to it as vaguely tribal, in whatever form they choose the word to
> take.
As long as tattooists continue to tell their clients they're buying
"tribal art" I guess.
I'm putting the blame for the current misconceptions on either
uneducated or irresponsible tattooists, not on the people duped into
thinking they wear "tribal art."
Once the distinction *is* pointed out, however, it's just stubborness
and stupidity that makes an individual continue to call it what it's
not.
> I know I will. ANd, on a day, should someone ever say, "dude, what natives
> actually drew those cool swirly lines" I'll have to tell them, "well, none.
> its more of modern European concept" and that'll be that.
You're making progress, slowly. =)
> And then both of us will continue to call it tribalesque. :)
<sigh>
Then you take two steps back. Not because you're an idiot, I'm guessing
it's because you just don't care.
Maybe not caring *is* the crime in this case, not the lack of education.
i'll teach you to turn away.
T> American artists around the turn of the century, and Tribal,
T> as i understand it, being the aboriginal marks of status and
T> achievement of a particular tribe (or tribes) of people, i
T> would say that they are as different as tattooing and
T> branding.
i specifically use the term "neo-tribal" because i know TRIBAL
TATTOOS are NOT TRIBAL. they are not of a tribe. they are black swirly
things. don't confuse my classifications.
> & by thus, your definitions don't matter.
T> Very nice attitude. You havn't proved a thing to me,
T> either.
the burden of proof is on cat. i don't have anything to prove
here.
CatBones
> TATTOOS are NOT TRIBAL. they are not of a tribe. they are black swirly
> things. don't confuse my classifications.
What "New Tribe" is your tribal art affiliated with?
Can't this "new tribe" develop a style of it's own, or must it plagerize
the works of other great cultures and pretend they are a unique entity?
> the burden of proof is on cat. i don't have anything to prove
> here.
Proof?
I offered you a great amount of evidence in order to "prove" that Art
Nouveau and Tribal Art are two completely different forms of
ornamentation. Evidentally you missed my first post. If you can't locate
it, I can forward it to you via email.
I have offered VERY ADEQUATE pictoral/historical reference to "prove"
the difference in the two.
If you chose to skim past that, then I've "cast my pearls before swine."
I have gone to great lengths here to differentiate between the two forms
of art.
If you stil feel like "they are one and the same" or "you can't see any
difference" then I'm QUITE willing to read all the references or view
all the imagery you care to show me that disproves my theory and shows
me that I'm wrong, and that they are in fact the same thing.
(I'm sitting here trying to imagine Alphonse Mucha tattooing tribal art
on Tongans or Samoans...)
I have gone above and beyond any "burden of proof", Lish.
regards,
Cat
---
Corine
news:tflla8n...@corp.supernews.com...
> However, whether its based on drawings from Maori in NZ or spirals from
the
> French in Paris, it's still all "tribalesque," or "neo-tribal" (which is a
> far better word) to me.
*We french have spirals in paris, please do tell !?
Twirls and knots in bretagne okay....people there have celtic roots...But
spirals in paris, how could I have miss these in my birth city?
Corine
G. Fenstermacher
> You've admitted this much, you really CAN see the difference!
Oh, I see fully well what you're getting at, and I recognize that
difference.
It doesn't change my perception, and my use of the word "tribal" or
"tribalesque" to describe it, though.
> Which 19th century Parisian TRIBE are you referring to then?
Which one? The French, that one.
What I was getting at is that all people are part of a tribe, really. I'm
American, and my tribe claims all others as our own, sucks their culture dry
and assimilates it, just like you said.
Yes, its a stretch, in a way, but I hardly see how its conviently used here,
I think its rather legitimate. What I was getting at was that all groups are
like tribes, and that I think calling it tribal is acceptable, let's not get
that lost under the way I chose to word it.
> Neo-Tribal, "New Tribal"?
> We ornament a person's body with European high art, and suddenly they're
> a part of a "new tribe?"
> Sounds like a convenient stretch to me, or just sloppy language.
Why not? What did tattoos signify to traditional native tribes? Don't they
hold very similar uses, now?
> As long as tattooists continue to tell their clients they're buying
> "tribal art" I guess.
You're right, should they call it neotribal, or tribalesque, or something
else, but people are lazy, and opt to call it tribal. I won't be upset
unless they started calling it by a specific tribal name.
Then it would be outright misrepresentation.
> I'm putting the blame for the current misconceptions on either
> uneducated or irresponsible tattooists, not on the people duped into
> thinking they wear "tribal art."
So, what makes it non "tribal art" then?
Again, are they being told its Cherokee tribal art? No, they're being told
its "generically tribal art," stylized tribal art, tribal art-like,
whatever.
> Once the distinction *is* pointed out, however, it's just stubborness
> and stupidity that makes an individual continue to call it what it's
> not.
Except, that's what it IS. Its like tribal art, it shares similarities to a
basic, stylized, and simplied tribal art then.
BTW, where did European art neuvou (you'd think I could spell that by this
point) get its influence from?
> Then you take two steps back. Not because you're an idiot, I'm guessing
> it's because you just don't care.
> Maybe not caring *is* the crime in this case, not the lack of education.
I hardly think along the same lines. So, I have a lizard shaped in a circle,
drawn in a stylized manner, and filled in with shaped bars and lines. What
is it to me? Tribalesque. I'm sure there's no native tribe that drew that
way, and I never saw it if they did, but it appeals to me, and its my art on
my body, and I opt to call it tribalesque, because that best suits it.
Its not that I don't care, its that I accept that whatever it is you want to
call it, its nothing anymore but some sort of conglomeration of various art
forms, but you know what, I like it, it reminds me of a more primitive style
of drawing, and I'll be damned if I don't like it.
G. Fenstermacher
"Corine" <smilin...@home.nl.killspam> wrote in message
news:3VBK6.113926$Uo2.3...@zwoll1.home.nl...
> *We french have spirals in paris, please do tell !?
> Twirls and knots in bretagne okay....people there have celtic roots...But
> spirals in paris, how could I have miss these in my birth city?
-shrug- I have no problem admitting that I have no idea where art neuvou
originated from.
Tabaqui
Corine wrote:
> Twirls and knots in bretagne okay....people there have celtic roots...But
> spirals in paris, how could I have miss these in my birth city?
Ah HA.
Could you tell me something please? Does
the....following...mean anything? It's from a book, the
name of a shop:
Jarre de The, with an accent on the final 'e' in The (accent
a droit...)
Just curious, i've always wondered. :)
TQ
John McGrail
>
>The *fact* is, there is a BIG difference between tribal art and art
>nouveau. That isn't a statement of opinion, John. For anyone to be given
>the two and shown the difference and still cling to the concept that
>"they're too similar to distinguish" only shows that a) they don't want
>to admit they can see any difference or b) they suffer from some "visual
>malady" similar to the aural concept of "tonedeafness."
>
that. My point, and my opinion, is that they can both be called tribal
without being disrespectful. Because tribal is just a word and many words
have many meanings.
It seems to be your opinion that because of that difference they deserve
different labels. It is seems to be your opinion that anyone who doesn't give
them different labels is somehow flawed, disrespectful or ignorant. While I
can easily be swayed to agree with the first part, I will never agree with the
second part.
I'm trying to get you to understand the distinction between your facts (the
two art forms are different) and your opinion (people who don't appreciate the
distinction are ignorant).
--
Keith Alexander
wrote:
>There are several people here who can vouch for my "nice guy" mannerisms
>IRL. =)
*** Mine too.
Then again...
---
k e i t h . a l e x a n d e r
http://www.modernamerican.com
http://www.nootrope.net
-- e n d . t r a n s m i s s i o n --
John McGrail
>>
>> the burden of proof is on cat. i don't have anything to prove
>> here.
>
>Proof?
>I offered you a great amount of evidence in order to "prove" that Art
>Nouveau and Tribal Art are two completely different forms of
>ornamentation.
You offered up some evidence that your art nouveau inspired tribal swirly
backgrounds are not based on traditional tribal tattoo methods. You've also
shown with your evidence that there are differences between your backgrounds
and what I call tribal.
You did not offer up evidence that Tribal Art is a recognized art form by the
general art community. You did not offer up evidence that proves the label
tribal can't be applied. Try to distinguish fact from opinion.
Two more examples of why I consider you wrong when you say it's
disrespectful, or ignorant to use the general label tribal:
1) Throbbing Gristle and KMFDM. They are dramatically different. Enough so
that even my dad would be able to distinguish between them. But, they are
both considered industrial music.
2) Whales and humans. Both very different species but are mammals.
--
John McGrail
>"G. Fenstermacher" wrote:
>
>> So, what about music in general?
>
>What about "art in general?"
>Ahahahahaha.
>Massive concepts to generalize.
>
>> Its easier for me to tell a non-fan that I listen to "noise industrial
>> music" rather than answering "post-industrial German musique concrete."
>
>If you tell my dad, and let him listen to it, he'll tell you the same
>thing Lish said in her post..
>"I can't tell the difference."
>Because he CAN'T or because he doesn't care to? I'm inclined to think
>the latter.
>
>I believe that if one CARES that they can learn to distinguish between
>the two, whether we're discussing visual ornamentation or industrial
>music.
Where does the manual say I have to care about what something is called to
appreciate it?
I don't have to be able to distinguish the subtleties of wagner and rossini in
order to appreciate their music. I may not be able to appreciate it on the
same level as somoeone who speaks the languages, but I can still like it and
label it classical. Bugs bunny appeals to me on an entirely different level
today than it did when I was a kid. But, that didn't make me ignorant when I
appreciated it as a kid.
I can like modern, neo-tribalesque swirly doodads, all the while calling them
tribal.
Which I'm going to continue to do.
--
i'll teach you to turn away.
C> "i'll teach you to turn away." wrote:
> i specifically use the term "neo-tribal" because i know TRIBAL
> TATTOOS are NOT TRIBAL. they are not of a tribe. they are black swirly
> things. don't confuse my classifications.
tattooists are the tribe that created neo-tribal.
or perhaps they're just "ink slingers".
i don't care. as much as i hate kanji & dolphins & roses, i still
like a swirly piece of blackwork that properly follows someone's
musculature. (yours don't.)
C> Can't this "new tribe" develop a style of it's own, or must it plagerize
C> the works of other great cultures and pretend they are a unique entity?
being that it's created by americans who have, for years,
plagiarized other cultures, i doubt it.
why does everything have to be original? wait, this means you
plagiarize art nouveau works. neo-tribal can borrow from other cultures
the same way you do, cat.
C> ornamentation. Evidentally you missed my first post. If you can't locate
C> it, I can forward it to you via email.
you already sent it to me once, unsolicited.
C> If you stil feel like "they are one and the same" or "you can't see any
C> difference" then I'm QUITE willing to read all the references or view
i can see the difference in the actual pieces of art. once you
take it & borrow from it & inspire yourself into working a hunk of skin,
it looks identical to neo-tribal except in reverse. i stand my ground.
C> I have gone above and beyond any "burden of proof", Lish.
see john's post regarding this. i agree with him here. opinions
are not fact.
Ulf Scherov
> Ah HA.
> Could you tell me something please? Does
> the....following...mean anything? It's from a book, the
> name of a shop:
> Jarre de The, with an accent on the final 'e' in The (accent
> a droit...)
> Just curious, i've always wondered. :)
>
> TQ
Vase of tea afaik, tea as in the bush. Sprigs(?), branches of tea in a vase.
Does that make sense to you?
Ulf
CatBones
> *We french have spirals in paris, please do tell !?
> Twirls and knots in bretagne okay....people there have celtic roots...But
> spirals in paris, how could I have miss these in my birth city?
Mucha did (and left) a lot of wonderful work in Paris!
He was Slavic but studied and worked in Paris, it's the birthplace of
Art Nouveau. =)
cheers!
Cat
--
oO$8$Oo.,oo,.oO$$88$Oo
8$:` .8$$8. ';8$'
8$. ,8$ $8, :8$
'8$$..8$o..o$8..;8$
http://www.catbones.com/
Ulf Scherov
I just thought of something; 18th century porcelain tea jars looked a
bit like vases. Square usually, with a short narrow "neck". The
"Swedish" ones did at least, but they were imported from China which
probably means it was a fairly universal design considering they were imported?
So it could mean tea-box, sort of.
Ulf
CatBones
You (and John, and FesterMacher) have lost site of my primary point in
this thread - to distinguish the difference in "Tribal Art" and "Art
Nouveau." I did this. Not as a matter of opinion, but with solid
evidence drawn from real art history. To further refute that there is a
clear difference sounds like feeble whining about semantics to me.
You can put in cutesy lables like "tribal-esque" or "pseudotribal" or
"neo-tribal", I'm not even debating these things. I started out trying
to help people who are unable to see Saram's arm as what it is, trimmed
with art influenced by Art Nouveau, not "Tribal Art".
If I sit down and draw fake borneo influenced tribal, "Neo-Tribal" might
well apply.
Incorporating art that is clearly influenced by European art does NOT
classify as "Neo-Tribal", you can call it that in with some abstract
theory about the evolution of language, but you'll never convince anyone
who knows the basics of Western Art history.
You told me you couldn't see a difference, so I showed you.
You still couldn't see the difference? That's your own impairment, not
mine.
regards,
Cat
--
oO$8$Oo.,oo,.oO$$88$Oo
8$:` .8$$8. ';8$'
8$. ,8$ $8, :8$
'8$$..8$o..o$8..;8$
http://www.catbones.com/
CatBones
> I'm not saying tribal art and art nouveau are the same. Not sure I ever said
> that. My point, and my opinion, is that they can both be called tribal
> without being disrespectful. Because tribal is just a word and many words
> have many meanings.
Sort of like the point TQ made about automobiles.
Fuckit, they're just cars, why call one a chevy and the other a
mercedes?
Sloppy linguistic form.
No desire to understand the meaning or roots behind the art you wear?
> It seems to be your opinion that because of that difference they deserve
> different labels. It is seems to be your opinion that anyone who doesn't give
> them different labels is somehow flawed, disrespectful or ignorant. While I
> can easily be swayed to agree with the first part, I will never agree with the
> second part.
Right - they're either uneducated, lazy with the language, don't CARE
about origins, or carelessly disrespectful of keeping the history or
roots of their art alive.
> I'm trying to get you to understand the distinction between your facts (the
> two art forms are different) and your opinion (people who don't appreciate the
> distinction are ignorant).
People who don't appreciate making such a distinction even after
learning to recognize it are ignorant or lazy, yes. That is my opinion.
But hey, I'm just one tattooist. There are plenty who don't give a rat's
ass what you call it, as long as they get their $150. That's the kind of
tattooist *I'D* like to have work on me. Yeah!
Cat
--
oO$8$Oo.,oo,.oO$$88$Oo
8$:` .8$$8. ';8$'
8$. ,8$ $8, :8$
'8$$..8$o..o$8..;8$
http://www.catbones.com/
CatBones
> 1) Throbbing Gristle and KMFDM. They are dramatically different. Enough so
> that even my dad would be able to distinguish between them. But, they are
> both considered industrial music.
>
> 2) Whales and humans. Both very different species but are mammals.
ART NOUVEAU and TRIBAL. BOTH VERY DIFFERENT, BUT BOTH ARE TATTOO STYLES.
*NOT* "both are tribal."
Cat
--
oO$8$Oo.,oo,.oO$$88$Oo
8$:` .8$$8. ';8$'
8$. ,8$ $8, :8$
'8$$..8$o..o$8..;8$
http://www.catbones.com/
CatBones
> Where does the manual say I have to care about what something is called to
> appreciate it?
The manual says (and I quote verbatim..) "you can appreciate it without
knowing WHAT it's called.. But the manual also says if you care enough
about Art, you care to properly define them."
> I don't have to be able to distinguish the subtleties of wagner and rossini in
> order to appreciate their music. I may not be able to appreciate it on the
> same level as somoeone who speaks the languages, but I can still like it and
> label it classical. Bugs bunny appeals to me on an entirely different level
> today than it did when I was a kid. But, that didn't make me ignorant when I
> appreciated it as a kid.
So your rationale is "If I care just a little I can call it this, since
you care more deeply about the history of it all, you call it that."
You don't care enough.
That's the other excuse for pinning the wrong lables and credit on
styles of art.
> Which I'm going to continue to do.
LAZY? Apathetic as to the meanings behind the wonderful array of styles?
regards,
LadyJ
>On Thu, 10 May 2001, John McGrail wrote:
>
>> The first couple of things that went through my mind when I saw Saram's new
>> tattoo ...
>> "Wow! That's slick."
>> "I like the rundown city portion."
>> "Nice tribal background too".
>>
>> Never did I think "nice art nouveau inspired background."
>
>/me cries
>
>IT'S NOT TRIBAL@#@!!@!@!!
>
>/me smacks John around with my 15-pound Art Nouveau exhibition catalog
>
>I know how it goes, though, and really can't fight all of the opinions
>that I have two "tribal" tattoos. I know they're not, and that's what
>matters. :D
It's kind of like insisting that everyone call you "Dr. so-and-so" when you
have a phd in something not widely thought of as honorific-worthy. You can
piss and moan about it as much as you like, but ultimately people will do
what they like.
I've learned not to correct people's grammar and spelling as much as I used
to, because all it was doing was giving me cause to be agitated WAY TOO
OFTEN. It irks me that I'm contributing to the permissiveness that has
allowed the language to deteriorate as much as it has, but I'm saving myself
ulcers and heart attacks.
Jess
--
"People want to take sex education out of the schools.
They believe sex education causes promiscuity... hey,
I took algebra. I never do math." - Elayne Boosler
---------------------------------------------------------------
LadyJ is available at www.ladyj.net and fine stores everywhere.
LadyJ
>If you chose to skim past that, then I've "cast my pearls before swine."
It really doesn't matter who you cast first, as long as they all have SAG
cards.
Jess
--
"You know what I hate? Indian givers....
No, I take that back." - Emo Phillips
WyrdWoman
>
> *We french have spirals in paris, please do tell !?
> Twirls and knots in bretagne okay....people there have celtic
> roots...
They named a city after Bertrang?
John McGrail
>You (and John, and FesterMacher) have lost site of my primary point in
>this thread - to distinguish the difference in "Tribal Art" and "Art
>Nouveau."
Even I know, it's FensterMacher. See, you must be ignorant and uncaring to be
unable to use the correct label for him.
> I started out trying
>to help people who are unable to see Saram's arm as what it is, trimmed
>with art influenced by Art Nouveau, not "Tribal Art".
That's a nice tribal swirly thing you incorporated into Saram's arm!
--
John McGrail
>
>You can put in cutesy lables like "tribal-esque" or "pseudotribal" or
>"neo-tribal", I'm not even debating these things. I started out trying
>to help people who are unable to see Saram's arm as what it is, trimmed
>with art influenced by Art Nouveau, not "Tribal Art".
>
cutesy labels. It's tribal to me. Because my definition of tribal easily
encompasses both the old and the new. Just like industrial music encompasses
the old and the new.
--
John McGrail
>
>> Never did I think "nice art nouveau inspired background."
>
>/me cries
hahahahahahaha. You cry easily.
>
>IT'S NOT TRIBAL@#@!!@!@!!
>
>/me smacks John around with my 15-pound Art Nouveau exhibition catalog
>
Ouch. I prefer to be the smacker, not the smackee.
>I know how it goes, though, and really can't fight all of the opinions
>that I have two "tribal" tattoos. I know they're not, and that's what
>matters. :D
>
I know they're not too.
--
John McGrail
>John McGrail wrote:
>
>> 1) Throbbing Gristle and KMFDM. They are dramatically different. Enough so
>> that even my dad would be able to distinguish between them. But, they are
>> both considered industrial music.
>>
>> 2) Whales and humans. Both very different species but are mammals.
>
>ART NOUVEAU and TRIBAL. BOTH VERY DIFFERENT, BUT BOTH ARE TATTOO STYLES.
>
>*NOT* "both are tribal."
Aaah, but your art nouveau inspired backgrounds sure do look a lot like tribal
to me.
;-p
--
CatBones
> Even I know, it's FensterMacher. See, you must be ignorant and uncaring to be
> unable to use the correct label for him.
Clearly intentional.
Not ignorant.
That was disrepectful and I'm feeling such regret for it.
> That's a nice tribal swirly thing you incorporated into Saram's arm!
Why thank you!
In your opinion, which tribal style does it seem to resemble most?
-----
To quote another bodyart professional educated in the history of Tribal
art:
"If it's not from a Tribe, it's not tribal.
It's black swirly shit."
(KA)
-----
CatBones
> I don't put cutesy labels on it unless I'm talking with someone who uses
> cutesy labels. It's tribal to me. Because my definition of tribal easily
> encompasses both the old and the new. Just like industrial music encompasses
> the old and the new.
*Your* definition seems rather uneducated.
Have I told you that? =P
CatBones
> I know they're not too.
Goddamnit John! I knew it!
You just want to play games now. =P
You want to argue with me for arguments sake, don't you?
Tsk Tsk..
CatBones
> Aaah, but your art nouveau inspired backgrounds sure do look a lot like tribal
> to me.
<sigh>
I'm losing momentum now. ;)
I guess we're getting close to having this topic "played out."
cheers!
Tabaqui
John McGrail wrote:
> Aaah, but your art nouveau inspired backgrounds sure do look a lot like tribal
> to me.
So basically, what you're saying is, any purley ornamental,
non-pictographic 'design' that is tattooed on someone is
tribal? Basically there are 'tribal' and there are
'picture' tattoos, and that's it?
Weird.
TQ
Tabaqui
Ulf Scherov wrote:
> Vase of tea afaik, tea as in the bush. Sprigs(?), branches of tea in a vase.
Yeah, here's the quote: "Two blocks west of the Chat, in a
teashop called the Jarre de The, Case washed down the
night's first pill with a double espresso."
So it means like teabox... Interesting. I always liked how
it looked and sounded, just never knew what it meant.
Thanks Ulf!
TQ
CatBones
> So basically, what you're saying is, any purley ornamental,
> non-pictographic 'design' that is tattooed on someone is
> tribal? Basically there are 'tribal' and there are
> 'picture' tattoos, and that's it?
There is also written word/symbols..
The three catergories of tattoo art:
* Pictures/Iconography
* Written word
* Tribal
That makes it SOOO simple. =)
---
Corine
news:3AFB1A12...@catbones.com...
>
>
> Corine wrote:
>
> > Twirls and knots in bretagne okay....people there have celtic
> > spirals in paris, how could I have miss these in my birth city?
>
> Could you tell me something please? Does
> the....following...mean anything? It's from a book, the
> name of a shop:
> Jarre de The, with an accent on the final 'e' in The (accent
> a droit...)
> Just curious, i've always wondered. :)
>
> TQ
*The Tea Pitcher :)
Corine
Corine
news:3AFB317F...@acid.org...
> Corine wrote:
>
> > *We french have spirals in paris, please do tell !?
> > Twirls and knots in bretagne okay....people there have celtic
roots...But
> > spirals in paris, how could I have miss these in my birth city?
>
> Mucha did (and left) a lot of wonderful work in Paris!
> He was Slavic but studied and worked in Paris, it's the birthplace of
> Art Nouveau. =)
>
> cheers!
>
> Cat
*This I have no trouble to understand.
I just pointed there's no such thing as a parisian tribe which had a
particular style of tattoo art :)
The origine of this art form is to be found somewhere else than the
location.
Corine
the house of unlocked doors
an ice cube up my spine to get my attention and said:
| It's black swirly shit."
|
| (KA)
i think all tattoos of this style shoud henceforth be referred to as
"black swirly shit". preferably loudly around disapproving parents
and small children.
cassie
--
"too bad dark languages rarely survive."
-johnny truant, "hey pretty: just another drive"
Sara
> That's a nice tribal swirly thing you incorporated into Saram's arm!
I swear, John, you're asking for it.
I don't know what 'it' is yet, but I'll find 'it' eventually.
Sara
Sara
--
saram AT wam.umd.edu
http://iam.bmezine.com/?saram
[make my address kosher to reply]
23% teeny bop, 44% sleaze, 59% nasty, 100% tribal-free
Sara
> hahahahahahaha. You cry easily.
I do not.
/me chokes back tears
> Ouch. I prefer to be the smacker, not the smackee.
Well, I've already been virtually smacked around with this whole "your
tattoos are tribal" thing I'm encountering. :D
> I know they're not too.
8|
Sara
> I started out trying to help people who are unable to see Saram's arm
> as what it is, trimmed with art influenced by Art Nouveau, not "Tribal
> Art".
Dear Everyone,
My arm is trimmed with art influenced by Art Nouveau. It is not "Tribal
Art." Please see this clearly from now on.
Love,
Siobhan
> i think all tattoos of this style shoud henceforth be referred to as
> "black swirly shit". preferably loudly around disapproving parents
> and small children.
Hehe, that reminds me. We've got this vaguely nationalistic bloke called
Dick Smith in Aus, who thinks that national icons (such as vegemite, Arnotts
biscuits, Heinz tomato sauce etc) shuold be owned in Australia, not foreign
owned. Anyway, all his products are referred to as Dick<insert product
name>, even though they're usually called something else. We went through
the supermarket, shopping for a trip, and I said to my friends, hey, check
it out, he's brought out DickSauce! A friend decided it was funny, repeated
it louder...much to the delight of a small child in the vicinity, who we
heard, as he was dragged away, say "Dick Sauce, Mummy! Dick sauce!"
Luckily this multi-millionaire has a sense of humour, and has brought out an
alternative to Redhead matches, called - Dickheads.
Gotta love national icons.
Siobhan
--
The second confusing thing about Australia is the animals. They can be
divided into three categories: Poisonous, Odd, and Sheep. - Douglas Adams
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/donttellmewhatsizeimustb
John McGrail
>
>The three catergories of tattoo art:
>* Pictures/Iconography
>* Written word
>* Tribal
>
If you are going to include them as their own category, you should include the
4th, very important category:
* Black swirly shit
I'm surprisd you left it out :D
--
John McGrail
>
>
>John McGrail wrote:
>
>> Aaah, but your art nouveau inspired backgrounds sure do look a lot like
> tribal
>> to me.
>
>So basically, what you're saying is, any purley ornamental,
>non-pictographic 'design' that is tattooed on someone is
>tribal?
If you go back and reread what I wrote you'll find I never said this. Neither
specifically nor generally.
2 != 3.
--
John McGrail
>On Fri, 11 May 2001, John McGrail wrote:
>
>> That's a nice tribal swirly thing you incorporated into Saram's arm!
>
>I swear, John, you're asking for it.
>
>I don't know what 'it' is yet, but I'll find 'it' eventually.
>
>
>Sara
>
>Sara
>
trouble.
<evil grin/>
--
Ulf Scherov
> > TQ
>
> *The Tea Pitcher :)
>
> Corine
I was on the right track at least. =)
Ulf
Clive
> The three catergories of tattoo art:
> * Pictures/Iconography
> * Written word
> * Tribal
* Yuk.
* Ok, but not on ME, thankyouverymuchanyway.
* I want, or I want something similar.
Now, Cat, back away from the keyboard and stay clear of it untill you've
finished reading what follows, and thought about it.
Your pre-school daughter presents you with her latest work of art - a
crayon scribble.
You identify something that looks like maybe a window, so you tell her
you like her picture of a house.
And she bursts into tears because it's a picture of you.
Never the less, it gets pride of place under a fridge magnet, until it
quietly disappears.
And one day many years later, after you die and your daughter is forced
to sort through your collected junk, she finds, in a manilla envelope
carefully filed with all your other important documents, the very same
picture now yellow with age, worn with age and disintergrating at the
creases.
And she cries, because now she understands.
8^)
--
Clive Olivier
Reply to mail...@bigfoot.com - Trash to mail...@altavista.com
"*** A good piercer doesn't give a fuck." - Keith Alexander
G. Fenstermacher
"John McGrail" <skat...@REMOVEME.channel1.com> wrote in message
news:btHK6.12431$TL3.7...@typhoon2.ba-dsg.net...
> Even I know, it's FensterMacher. See, you must be ignorant and uncaring
to be
> unable to use the correct label for him.
Actually, I sort of like Festermacher....
i'll teach you to turn away.
C> You told me you couldn't see a difference, so I showed you.
C> You still couldn't see the difference? That's your own impairment, not
C> mine.
is it?
the other responses on this thread are leading me to believe it's
the impairment of your style, not of my eyes.
seems everyone who doesn't wear it doesn't see it. & i'd bet half
the people who wear it are only pretending to see it, at that. the polite
thing to do is to agree with the artist who's given you a thousand
dollars' worth of free ink. "art nouveau? you bet."
lish
cr...@santacruz.org
34.6% / 26
Mimp
la...@ladyj.net.fuck.spam says...
>>I know how it goes, though, and really can't fight all of the opinions
>>that I have two "tribal" tattoos. I know they're not, and that's what
>>matters. :D
>It's kind of like insisting that everyone call you "Dr. so-and-so" when you
>have a phd in something not widely thought of as honorific-worthy. You can
>piss and moan about it as much as you like, but ultimately people will do
>what they like.
To me it's more of a pet peeve. It bugs me when people say "loop" instead of
ring or "stud" instead of barbell the same way it bugs some people to hear
"tats", which only bothers me when certain individuals say it.
Of course my all-time favorite is - " you've got an earring in your
chin/nose/navel!"
It bugs me when people say "tribal" without bothering to ask if that's what it
is BUT these are all my snooty little pet peeves, I'm certainly not going to
start a crusade to end stupid sounding labels for bodyart/jewelry.
So, unless I'm drawn into a conversation about my bodyart and what it all means,
I'll just inwardly cringe whenever I hear "loop" and get on with my life.
Luckily, the one piece of BLACKWORK I have on my body is covered.
Besides, no one likes an ART SNOB.
:D
Mimp
CatBones
> I'm certainly not going to
> start a crusade to end stupid sounding labels for bodyart/jewelry.
YOU SHOULD, Mimp!
I'm tired of hearing about earrings in people's tongues too. ;)
> Besides, no one likes an ART SNOB.
Not true. I like quite a few of 'em. =)
In most cases they're the kind of tattooists who have passion and
conviction about what they do. They love art more than their Harley
Davidson, and they can offer me not only good information and
intelligent discussions, but also the most exquisite tattoo artistry!
cheers!
Cat
CatBones
> is it?
yes, quite.
> the other responses on this thread are leading me to believe it's
> the impairment of your style, not of my eyes.
Well, since this discussion is primarily with persons NOT educated in
art history, what the hell do you THINK?
We're talking about a conversation where most of those involved wouldn't
know a Dali from a Magritte.
That's not an insult, that's just a statement of fact.
Are you saying since the average man knows little about art history, and
can't spot the difference, I'm fucking making all this up? SLAP YOURSELF
and get over this idea that I don't know what I'm talking about, because
I DO.
> seems everyone who doesn't wear it doesn't see it. & i'd bet half
> the people who wear it are only pretending to see it, at that. the polite
> thing to do is to agree with the artist who's given you a thousand
> dollars' worth of free ink. "art nouveau? you bet."
That's REALLY fucking low. *REALLY* low.
I can't believe you said that.
CatBones
> seems everyone who doesn't wear it doesn't see it. & i'd bet half
> the people who wear it are only pretending to see it, at that. the polite
Lish,
*Please* take the time to look at the images. All the talk in the world
isn't going to help you if you can't see the SHAPES.
http://websumer.medoc-ias.u-psud.fr/mwww/mucha/treasure/MUCHA_ZODIAQUE1896.JPG
Look at the frame around this image.
Also pay special attention to her hair, particularly at the tips.
http://websumer.medoc-ias.u-psud.fr/mwww/mucha/treasure/MUCHA_NECTAR.GIF
The decorative frame again.
In your mind's eye, try to see it in reverse as well, with the negative
space black, like the "neo-tribal" you're talking about.
The crescents, the cutout arcs and flowing space with "holes" cut into
it..
http://websumer.medoc-ias.u-psud.fr/mwww/mucha/treasure/MUCHA_NYMPHEAS.GIF
Not the floral trim in blue, but the ochre colored trim in the top
corners.
http://websumer.medoc-ias.u-psud.fr/mwww/mucha/treasure/MUCHA_PERFECTABIKES.JPG
The surreal curves in her hair.
http://websumer.medoc-ias.u-psud.fr/mwww/mucha/treasure/MUCHA_CHOCOIDEAL.JPG
particularly the curl of steam rising from the hot drinks.
http://websumer.medoc-ias.u-psud.fr/mwww/mucha/treasure/MUCHA_NESTLE1897.GIF
Damnit this picture is too small, but it's there. Look in the top
corners at about the woman's head level, beneath the birds that decorate
the edges there.
Next, look at Christy's arm, look at Saram's arm, look at Adya's arm.
Do you see the similarity?
I'm not asking if you LIKE it, just if you can SEE the similarity.
Now, show me ANY Tribal Art that seems to look *more* similar to the
negative space in these ladies' tattoos..
I wish I had more time, I could help you see, I know I could.
Look at these images. Feed your mind. Your imagination is starving to
fucking death.
When I have time, I'll help you some more. I promise.
Nina Baltes
> We're talking about a conversation where most of those involved wouldn't
> know a Dali from a Magritte.
> That's not an insult, that's just a statement of fact.
> Are you saying since the average man knows little about art history, and
> can't spot the difference, I'm fucking making all this up?
Remember the discussion about antibiotic resistance?
FEEL MY PAIN, CAT.
8)
Nina
--
C'est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot.
Louis Pasteur
http://chaotropic.net