NEON GENESIS EVANGELION WINS ANIMAGE GRAND PRIX
Elizabeth HL Horn
Gainax's 26-episode TV show NEON GENESIS EVANGELION won the 18th
Annual Animage Grand Prix, their annual reader poll, for "Best Anime,"
as reported in the May issue. EVANGELION also won for "Best Female
Character" (Ayanami Rei) and "Best Theme" ("Zankoku na Tesnshi no
These" by Takahashi Yooko). Ayanami Rei's voice-actress, Hayashibara
Megumi, also won for "Best Voice Actor."
EVANGELION took the same honor won by Gainax for their other TV show,
NADIA, despite the fact it was produced on a smaller budget, was on the
on the smallest of Japan's five networks (not all parts of Japan
receive TV Tokyo), received criticism for its violence and sexual
content, and had a very controversial ending that some viewed as
mocking its own fans. The Grand Prix has been famously elusive for
Gainax, as in 1987 when their film THE WINGS OF HONNEAMISE swept the
critics' awards (including Animage's own Editors' Poll) but came in
fourth in the Grand Prix to victor RED PHOTON ZILLION.
EVANGELION was billed as Gainax's comeback after a four-year absence
from the scene, and it appears writer/director Hideaki Anno gambled
and won with his iconoclastic series. You'll notice I chose this
moment to break my moratorium on talking about Gainax, HONNEAMISE, and
EVANGELION ;-)
--Carl "Find, find your place/Speak, speak the truth" Horn
Donny CHAN
In article <ziziDqt...@netcom.com>,
zi...@netcom.com (Elizabeth HL Horn) wrote:
]Gainax's 26-episode TV show NEON GENESIS EVANGELION won the 18th
]Annual Animage Grand Prix, their annual reader poll, for "Best Anime,"
]as reported in the May issue. EVANGELION also won for "Best Female
]Character" (Ayanami Rei) and "Best Theme" ("Zankoku na Tesnshi no
]These" by Takahashi Yooko). Ayanami Rei's voice-actress, Hayashibara
]Megumi, also won for "Best Voice Actor."
Who are the Best Male Character and Best Male Seiyuu?
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| crs...@inforamp.net (Donny CHAN) |
| University of Toronto Mechanical Engineering 9T3+1 ERTW |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Don "Gamera" Chan's Top Three Anime Girls |
| |
| Name Anime Seiyuu |
| |
| Asagiri Yohko Genmu Senki LEDA Tsuru Hiromi |
| Ayukawa Madoka Kimagure ORANGE ROAD Tsuru Hiromi |
| Tokimatsuri Eve Mugen Chitai MEGAZONE 23 Miyasato Kumi |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Reiji Muskett
zi...@netcom.com (Elizabeth HL Horn) wrote:
>
> Gainax's 26-episode TV show NEON GENESIS EVANGELION won the 18th
> Annual Animage Grand Prix, their annual reader poll, for "Best Anime,"
> as reported in the May issue. EVANGELION also won for "Best Female
> Character" (Ayanami Rei) and "Best Theme" ("Zankoku na Tesnshi no
> These" by Takahashi Yooko). Ayanami Rei's voice-actress, Hayashibara
> Megumi, also won for "Best Voice Actor."
>
> NADIA, despite the fact it was produced on a smaller budget, was on the
> on the smallest of Japan's five networks (not all parts of Japan
> receive TV Tokyo), received criticism for its violence and sexual
> content, and had a very controversial ending that some viewed as
> mocking its own fans. The Grand Prix has been famously elusive for
> Gainax, as in 1987 when their film THE WINGS OF HONNEAMISE swept the
> critics' awards (including Animage's own Editors' Poll) but came in
> fourth in the Grand Prix to victor RED PHOTON ZILLION.
>
> EVANGELION was billed as Gainax's comeback after a four-year absence
> from the scene, and it appears writer/director Hideaki Anno gambled
> and won with his iconoclastic series. You'll notice I chose this
> moment to break my moratorium on talking about Gainax, HONNEAMISE, and
> EVANGELION ;-)
Please write more (I'm for one reading, ^_^)
Although I've read to date only the first edition of the manga
and have seen only 3 OAV's I'm extremely impressed with the story
and plots. This story (anime and manga) has much depth in many
ways.
>
> --Carl "Find, find your place/Speak, speak the truth" Horn
>
>
Reiji Muskett
StudioUFO
Ojamashimashita
Michael Liu
> zi...@netcom.com (Elizabeth HL Horn) wrote:
>
> Gainax's 26-episode TV show NEON GENESIS EVANGELION won the 18th
> Annual Animage Grand Prix, their annual reader poll, for "Best Anime,"
> as reported in the May issue.
It should be pointed out that whatever anime was on Japan's airwaves
offered no competition whatsoever to Evangelion. The show won by default
in a sense.
It does not in any way mean the show is bad, but it's not as good as most
people in this newsgroup make it out to be. There are many light-years
between the skillful storytelling in Eva and the seminal ideas in Mazinger
Z and Gatchaman. GAINAX appear to be more the craftsman than the
originator.
Whatever Eva may be, it is also not a homage to Ultraman. Both the form
and the spirit (especially the spirit) are missing.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Freddy Chan
Michael Liu (ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: It does not in any way mean the show is bad, but it's not as good as most
: people in this newsgroup make it out to be. There are many light-years
: between the skillful storytelling in Eva and the seminal ideas in Mazinger
: Z and Gatchaman. GAINAX appear to be more the craftsman than the
: originator.
I agree, especially the last half of Evangelion episodes are quite
disappointing.
Freddy
Ryoohki
That's kinda funny. I thought the show was only decent.
Elizabeth HL Horn
In article <4meafj$e...@news.inforamp.net>,
Donny CHAN <crs...@inforamp.net> wrote:
>In article <ziziDqt...@netcom.com>,
> zi...@netcom.com (Elizabeth HL Horn) wrote:
>]Gainax's 26-episode TV show NEON GENESIS EVANGELION won the 18th
>]Annual Animage Grand Prix, their annual reader poll, for "Best Anime,"
>]Character" (Ayanami Rei) and "Best Theme" ("Zankoku na Tesnshi no
>]These" by Takahashi Yooko). Ayanami Rei's voice-actress, Hayashibara
>]Megumi, also won for "Best Voice Actor."
>
The Grand Prix doesn't have separate categories for male and female
seiyuu, which probably makes some sense considering that many male
roles are played by women. GUNDAM WING's Duo Maxwell won for Best Male
Character; EVANGELION's Ikari Shinji was #2.
>
>+---------------------------------------------------------------+
>| crs...@inforamp.net (Donny CHAN) |
>| University of Toronto Mechanical Engineering 9T3+1 ERTW |
>+---------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Don "Gamera" Chan's Top Three Anime Girls |
>| |
>| Name Anime Seiyuu |
>| |
>| Asagiri Yohko Genmu Senki LEDA Tsuru Hiromi |
>| Ayukawa Madoka Kimagure ORANGE ROAD Tsuru Hiromi |
>| Tokimatsuri Eve Mugen Chitai MEGAZONE 23 Miyasato Kumi |
>+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Ah, ah, ah, Tokimatsuri Eve...
--Carl "Sentimental behind my back" Horn
Elizabeth HL Horn
In article <4mf0hs$d...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>> zi...@netcom.com (Elizabeth HL Horn) wrote:
>>
>> Gainax's 26-episode TV show NEON GENESIS EVANGELION won the 18th
>> Annual Animage Grand Prix, their annual reader poll, for "Best Anime,"
>> as reported in the May issue.
>
>offered no competition whatsoever to Evangelion. The show won by default
>in a sense.
Default? It was up against GUNDAM WING, RAYEARTH, MACROSS 7, SLAYERS,
and FUSHIGI YUUGI, none of which suck, all of which have fan
followings in both countries, and all of which made the top ten.
Remember that all anime, including movies and OAVs, are eligible in
the "Best" category, including this year's Studio Ghibli offerring,
MIMI O SUMASEBA--which EVANGELION also beat (it beat the high-profile
GHOST IN THE SHELL as well).
>
>It does not in any way mean the show is bad, but it's not as good as most
>people in this newsgroup make it out to be. There are many light-years
>between the skillful storytelling in Eva and the seminal ideas in Mazinger
>Z and Gatchaman. GAINAX appear to be more the craftsman than the
>originator.
>
>Whatever Eva may be, it is also not a homage to Ultraman. Both the form
>and the spirit (especially the spirit) are missing.
>
It seems clear by the end that EVANGELION is not meant to be a homage
to anything. It's not clear to me what relationship you are positing
between EVANGELION and MAZINGER Z or GATCHAMAN. But somehow I don't think
either of these shows concerned themselves too much with psychological
issues, which is the main thrust of EVANGELION. Nobody could be more
aware of the history of the mecha genre than ultraotaku Hideaki Anno--
to him, the point was to do something different, although the debate
is open whether he did so through misdirection...
The point I'm trying to make is that the fans voted for an
unconventional show when they had plenty of more conventional ones to
choose from, including things with the GUNDAM and MACROSS names.
--Carl "You blame yourself for wanting more" Horn
Mayeen Alam
In article <4mf0hs$d...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>> zi...@netcom.com (Elizabeth HL Horn) wrote:
>>
>> Gainax's 26-episode TV show NEON GENESIS EVANGELION won the 18th
>> Annual Animage Grand Prix, their annual reader poll, for "Best Anime,"
>> as reported in the May issue.
>
>It should be pointed out that whatever anime was on Japan's airwaves
>offered no competition whatsoever to Evangelion. The show won by default
>in a sense.
Try telling that to the people who think that these last couple
of years have been pretty near the golden age of Japanese animation
again. I don't know what you think of shows like Bakaretsu Hunter,
Rayearth, Macross 7, Gundam W, Fushigi Yuugi, etc. etc. and other shows
like Macross Plus, Ghost in the Shell, etc.
>
>It does not in any way mean the show is bad, but it's not as good as most
>people in this newsgroup make it out to be. There are many light-years
>between the skillful storytelling in Eva and the seminal ideas in Mazinger
>Z and Gatchaman. GAINAX appear to be more the craftsman than the
>originator.
Around this time (if I was more hot headed) I would be calling
someone a clueless twit. But then that would not only reflect badly
(and inaccurately) on me, but also not help the arguement any.
Okay, the story is great, and finely crafted, but it is *not* the
central thrust of the show. To compare it to Mazinga Z, and the like, is
to understand the show in a very shallow manner.
The creators of the show meant for it to be as close of a copy to
these shows as possible while maintaining creativity. They even *say*
that they intended to copy those works at the end. If that's all you saw
in the story, you *will* be dissapointed.
Almost from the very beginning, however, you are told that this
story is not what it appears to be at all. If you know anything about
mordern philosophical precepts, you will see something starting near the
middle that will take your breath away.
Evangelion doesn't just make smug nerdy references to mordern/and
ancient philosophy, it *is* a direct "theses" on these precepts and how
it relates to the creative mind. Read Jungian psychological texts. You
will see dialogue in Evangelion that practically parrots those beliefs.
I laugh inwardly everytime somebody starts talking about how
"psycobabble" ruined the show. Sorry, but psychobabble *was* the show.
The creators left out the standard set of information crucial to any
anime show (like what exactly the Angels are, or what Seele is, or what
Marduk is, or even what Nerv is and why this is all happening) to prove
the point that those aren't what the show is about.
On the other hand, it completes it's statement about human
creativity and intellectual desires (spirit) as totally as any
psycological analysis ever has. Evangelion uses the same psycobabble the
likes of Frued, Skinner, and (importantly if you are willing to spend the
time and read and expand your knowledge to get a grasp of what is going
on in Evangelion) Jung used.
>Whatever Eva may be, it is also not a homage to Ultraman. Both the form
>and the spirit (especially the spirit) are missing.
It's not homage. It's a grown man's artistic endeavor to make a
deeply personal statement (bare his soul if you will). I will admit, the
fact that it was so cleverly disguised (though the show itself tells you
that this is only a disguise) might confuse younger, less well read
audiences.
-M.
("Rei is the male pillar?!?!?!")
Kun L'un Lau
While we're on this subject, has any fan-sub group subtitled Neon Genesis
Evangelion? Or has any commercial subtitling company bought it yet? If so
how would I be able to get a copy of some episodes soon? I've only seen
pictures in magazines, wah!
_________________________________________________________________
Cl...@tesser.com
"We are building a fighting force of extraordinary
magnitude. You have our gratitude."
-Kentucky Fried Movie
"Empire was such a downer. That's what life
is: a series of downers. All Jedi had was a bunch
of muppets."
-Dante
_________________________________________________________________
Donny CHAN
In article <ziziDqv...@netcom.com>,]
]The Grand Prix doesn't have separate categories for male and female
]seiyuu, which probably makes some sense considering that many male
]roles are played by women. GUNDAM WING's Duo Maxwell won for Best Male
]Character; EVANGELION's Ikari Shinji was #2.
OK, then who's the first male seiyuu after Hayashibara Megumi? (I hope he's
not a dweeb like Yamaguchi Kappei and the ilk.)
]>| Tokimatsuri Eve Mugen Chitai MEGAZONE 23 Miyasato Kumi |
]
]Ah, ah, ah, Tokimatsuri Eve...
I never watched either volume of MZ23III though.
Donny CHAN
Charles Hagmaier
Elizabeth HL Horn <zi...@netcom.com> writes:
>Default? It was up against GUNDAM WING, RAYEARTH, MACROSS 7, SLAYERS,
>and FUSHIGI YUUGI, none of which suck, all of which have fan
>followings in both countries, and all of which made the top ten.
>Remember that all anime, including movies and OAVs, are eligible in
>the "Best" category, including this year's Studio Ghibli offerring,
>MIMI O SUMASEBA--which EVANGELION also beat (it beat the high-profile
>GHOST IN THE SHELL as well).
if he doesn't like a show made after 1984, let alone love 'em. It's
probably a high compliment that he grudgingly approved it at all.
>It seems clear by the end that EVANGELION is not meant to be a homage
>to anything. It's not clear to me what relationship you are positing
>between EVANGELION and MAZINGER Z or GATCHAMAN. But somehow I don't think
>either of these shows concerned themselves too much with psychological
>issues, which is the main thrust of EVANGELION. Nobody could be more
>aware of the history of the mecha genre than ultraotaku Hideaki Anno--
>to him, the point was to do something different, although the debate
>is open whether he did so through misdirection...
giant robot shows and "team five" shows. He's saying that Eva doesn't
match up to the golden age. I'm not too sure where Gatchaman and
"team 5" comes in either.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
I could probably support a career as a translator for Mike...
Michael Liu
> Try telling that to the people who think that these last couple
> of years have been pretty near the golden age of Japanese animation
> again.
I think I am doing just that by posting on this newsgroup. I should also
add that those people who think these years as near the Golden Age need to
watch more anime.
> Around this time (if I was more hot headed) I would be calling
> someone a clueless twit.
Humility is not required when dealing with me. :-)
Seriously, if the twit is called it would not be yours truly. This
newsgroup lacks the perspective of anime fans who have been watching the
growth of the medium for over twenty years, and many of those older fans
think the same way I do.
> Okay, the story is great, and finely crafted, but it is *not* the
> central thrust of the show. To compare it to Mazinga Z, and the like, is
> to understand the show in a very shallow manner.
At no point did I say GAINAX was not being creative with Evangelion. The
main point I'm trying to make is that contrary to many opinions stated in
this newsgroup, no new ideas were presented in Eva. The series is a
creative giant robot story, but that alone does not distinguish from many
others that have appeared over the years.
The storytelling is also not the central thrust of the series, and no
storytelling ever can or should be (it is by definition a background
process). I do not mind psychobabble, but I find the points Eva trying to
present laughable, somewhat like an old man listening to the meaning of
life told by a teenager. (I don't even understand why I find them
laughable, but I haven't figured myself out yet.)
There was no point to Eva, but it was a good series.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
P.S. If you think you're talking to someone deranged, it's probably not
your fault.
Michael Liu
Carl Horn wrote:
>Default? It was up against GUNDAM WING, RAYEARTH, MACROSS 7,
>SLAYERS, and FUSHIGI YUUGI, none of which suck, all of which have
>fan followings in both countries, and all of which made the top ten.
Remember you're arguing against one of the most ornery critics of
anime ever to appear in this newsgroup. ^_^ The ratings of the
other shows you mentioned are hardly high, given their time slots and
ratings from bona-fide hits like Sailor Moon, Slam Dunk, Beetle
Fighter (I kid you not), and Dragonball Z. Yes, it is true that
those series do not "suck," but none of them spits at you like Eva.
All competent shows do something to their audience, and Eva is the
only one that did this year.
>Remember that all anime, including movies and OAVs, are eligible in
>the "Best" category, including this year's Studio Ghibli offerring,
>MIMI O SUMASEBA--which EVANGELION also beat (it beat the
>high-profile GHOST IN THE SHELL as well).
A work by Studio Ghibli has never been synonymous with groundbreaking
material. In fact, Miyazaki and Ghibli's works are among the most
conservative anime titles available--titles that entice the general
public and are avoided by anime fanatics in general (though not over
here, which proves other points that are irrelevant to the current
topic). Their works are only considered technically excellent by
many. Such material has never meant award-winning material to me.
Ghost in the Shell and its spiritual predecessor, Patlabor 2 the
Movie, are works that gain more accolades than popularity. While I
can't yet give a personal judgement of GitS, many comments on the
film give me the impression that it is indeed nothing more than an
empty shell.
In short, nothing gave Evangelion solid competition. When no tigers
are in the mountains, monkeys rule.
>It seems clear by the end that EVANGELION is not meant to be a
>homage to anything.
Oh, it's clear from the beginning. I recall people on both sides of
the Pacific drawing similarities between Eva and Ultraman when the
series debuted. I was just saying that Eva in no way resembled
Ultraman.
>It's not clear to me what relationship you are positing between
>EVANGELION and MAZINGER Z or GATCHAMAN.
There is no relationship between them save the tenuous but certain
ancestral link between Eva and Maz.
Mazinger Z and Gatchaman were ground-breaking and sense-shattering
series in the years they came out. Eva was neither of those things
but it did bring storytelling techniques from other media into anime,
which is its true contribution to the craft.
>The point I'm trying to make is that the fans voted for an
>unconventional show when they had plenty of more conventional ones
>to choose from, including things with the GUNDAM and MACROSS names.
Evangelion is more mature than it is unconventional. I think of it
as nothing more than a well-executed giant robot story. The violence
was average and the much talked-about bedroom scene generated no more
excitement than the one in Braiger 15 years ago (such a scene hardly
constitutes a true achievement in any case).
GAINAX brought much-needed skills and techniques to anime through
Eva, but they did not give us new ideas. While they may have done a
different giant robot series, one of the chief characteristics of
giant robot series before the Gundam takeover was such a variation in
each and every series. Eva deviated no more from the Mazinger
formula than Goshogun or Godmars.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Alex Lau
In article <318D11...@tesser.com>, Kun L'un Lau <cl...@tesser.com> wrote:
>While we're on this subject, has any fan-sub group subtitled Neon Genesis
>Evangelion? Or has any commercial subtitling company bought it yet? If so
>how would I be able to get a copy of some episodes soon? I've only seen
>pictures in magazines, wah!
AD Vision picked it up, apparently, and they'll start releasing it in July
or August.
--
--- Alex "Superbrain just blew a fuse." Lau
Michael Liu
Charles Hagmaier (foole...@delphi.com) writes a "job wanted" ad:
>
> I could probably support a career as a translator for Mike...
It has belatedly occurred to me that my arguments on the relative merits of
Evangelion may have been unclear. To those not privy to the workings of my
mind, they may very well appear flippant, irrelevant and irreverent. I assure
you only the last part may be intentional.
It has also occurred to me that in my enthusiasm to deflect and rebutt many of
the absurd ideas presented against my opinions my position on the various
issues is not visibly labelled for mass consumption. It becomes apparent that
stating clearly my thoughts on Eva once and for all would be a brilliant idea.
Besides, this post would do wonders for my standing as one of the all-time top
20 posters on rec.arts.anime before its demise.
So with further ado, here goes:
Most of the patrons on rec.arts.anime did not live in the Golden Age of anime.
Oh, they might have been alive then, but they were so consumed by things
mundane and American that they had no lives whatsoever. The era was
characterized by its vitality and originality. The buoyancy of the times was
such that it left a general impression on the public, and many young adults
today can recall such favourite shows as Mazinger, Gatchaman, and Yamato.
Having a trio of that calibre back-to-back in the early seventies was a treat
audience today is repeatedly denied. I deny not that the techniques employed
in animation and storytelling in those series were sometimes abysmal, and many
neophytes to the hobby wince at the sight of these relative dinosaurs.
But that was not the point--if they had any--of those classics.
When I view something I watch for fresh ideas. Unlike Evangelion, the shows in
the Golden Age of anime often presented ideas for a genre that were seminal.
Furthermore, they not only caught the attention of the infant fandom, but also
the population in general. Can one imagine normal adults (i.e., one who is not
particularly interested in anime) rushing home to watch Eva? It happened with
Gatchaman. The staff of those series were striving for something bold and new,
whether it be animation, plot, story, or sex and violence. The astonishing
thing was, they succeeded on all fronts. Such success inevitably gave rise to
copycat shows, but those shows tried to improve on the originals (hence
"seminal") and were successes in their own right.
The band of originators and the skillful copycats were the Golden Age. Their
influence was such that everyone in the broadcast range was affected.
This did not happen with Evangelion. Granted, one show does not make an era,
and the shows that accompanied Eva did not have the power of the clones of the
Golden Age. (They were no more than cult series, IMO.) What Eva reminded me
most of was a competent copycat in the seventies. It is not my intent to
insult the show by calling it that. It shows much of my respect for the staff
of the series because it is no small feat to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with
Steel Jeeg, Raideen, or Daitan 3. Evangelion was a good series, but I will not
demean it by making it out to be something much more than that.
It will take at least five series of Eva's class being simultaneously on the
air to recreate the atmosphere of the Golden Age. The sophistication of
Evangelion does not matter, for the impact of Getter Robo on the audience in
the seventies is in some ways the same as the impact of Eva on the audience in
the nineties. What the anime industry truly needs is another show that is
ground-breaking and attention-getting as those shows in the seventies. Like it
or not, the average person today will remember Sailor Moon, Slam Dunk and
Dragonball much more vividly than they will Evangelion--if they remember the
name at all.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
P.S. I missed my point again, haven't I?
Enrique Conty
In article <ziziDqw...@netcom.com> zi...@netcom.com (Elizabeth HL Horn) writes:
>In article <4mf0hs$d...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
>Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>> Annual Animage Grand Prix, their annual reader poll, for "Best Anime,"
>>> as reported in the May issue.
>>It should be pointed out that whatever anime was on Japan's airwaves
>>offered no competition whatsoever to Evangelion. The show won by default
>>in a sense.
>
>and FUSHIGI YUUGI, none of which suck
None of which are even close to Evangelion's level either.
--
Enrique Conty | co...@cig.mot.com | http://www.mcs.net/~conty
NuVista+ Mac genlock/video capture board for sale | Wargame stuff for sale!
Check out Anime Central, http://www.mcs.net/~docangst/3w/ac/
Down with Daylight Savings Time!
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>The storytelling is also not the central thrust of the series, and no
>storytelling ever can or should be (it is by definition a background
>process). I do not mind psychobabble, but I find the points Eva trying to
>present laughable, somewhat like an old man listening to the meaning of
>life told by a teenager. (I don't even understand why I find them
>laughable, but I haven't figured myself out yet.)
definitive source are you referring to? In my eyes, if you've mis-
placed storytelling, you've lost the story. There are a number of
crummy writers (Jack Chalker, David Weber) who are great storytellers.
There are a number of good writers (that Jabalov wanker, Banks) who
wouldn't recognize storytelling if it burnt down their homes.
Guess who's more fun to read. It takes some mighty keen chops to
overcome a lack of storytelling ability.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>Remember you're arguing against one of the most ornery critics of
>anime ever to appear in this newsgroup. ^_^ The ratings of the
Mike. There's a term describing this sort of behaviour:
Passive-agressive.
>In short, nothing gave Evangelion solid competition. When no tigers
>are in the mountains, monkeys rule.
Mike. I still say you see the shows of the '70s with rose-tinted
glasses. Admittedly the mecha shows of the early/mid 80's were
less well-animated (by and large) than the average late 70's
anime, but if Gatchaman is your idea of great storytelling and
riveting action, then all these shows that you rave about and I
don't even know where to get ahold of, are probably prospective
disappointment. Convince me that I should be killing myself to
get ahold of Raideen, for instance, when I could instead be
finding myself a copy of the new Sailor Moon Stars episodes.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
I gotta admire someone so determined to cheese off his audience.
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>When I view something I watch for fresh ideas. Unlike Evangelion, the shows in
>the Golden Age of anime often presented ideas for a genre that were seminal.
in that market, before? Such seminal events happen often in a young
media (as Japanese animation was in 1970-1972, the era you seem to be
citing as the beloved Golden Age). Such a cluster of seminal events
characterize *every* new media, such as the beauty of TV sf in the
early sixties (yes, even Star Trek, even tho it came along a couple
of years after the great anthology shows were mostly done). All it
really means is that the same old ideas, for a brief moment in time,
become new again in the prism of a virgin medium. Gatchaman *was*
new, for Japanese animation. But it was terribly old hat in terms
of science fiction. It was cornball in many of the same ways as
Batman had been a decade previously, although Batman itself was
camp enough to laugh at itself, silently. The freshness of something
as essentially trite as Gatchaman was *inherent* in it's transference
to new media.
>characterized by its vitality and originality. The buoyancy of the times was
>such that it left a general impression on the public, and many young adults
>today can recall such favourite shows as Mazinger, Gatchaman, and Yamato.
show, a "five team" show, and a space opera. Especially considering
that they aren't the shows that fans *still watch*. I, and people I've
known, have gotten excited about Future Boy Conan, about the original
Captain Harlock, about the Rose of Versailles (only now being translated
via subtitles, some fiveteen years after it ran in Japan), and yes,
about Mobile Suit Gundam. All of these ran during a two year period
in 1978-1979. So why isn't that the "Golden Age"? Because we're not
talking about an objective period of excellence. We are discussing
*your* Age of Gold. It's an old cliche that the Golden Age of science
fiction is twelve. What that means is everything is fresh and wonderful
the first time you discover it. I betcha that your trio of wonder-shows
were the first great anime series you came across, am I right? I have
much the same reaction to Laputa (a show that it's own creator considers
a creative failure). But it's necessary to understand that it is, in
many ways, a visceral response, and to adjust one's critical judgement
accordingly.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
Elizabeth HL Horn
I believe I see what you're getting at--one swallow does not a summer
make, eh? But you can't blame EVA for existng after the golden age of
TV anime ended in the mid-80s and after the bubble economy that
financed experimentation ended in 1991. I won't deny that the TV anime
scene was more vital in the past. But time doesn't run backwards.
Hideaki Anno is 35; he is minutely aware of the history of the mecha
genre. He contends that EVA represents a progression, something new,
and I believe that it does (although one may argue that this progress
was made through misdirection). I thought about your remark that no
normal adult would rush home to watch EVA, but there's a letter from a
30-year-old woman in the March NEWTYPE which regards EVA as a show an
adult can actually enjoy for its own merits rather than as strictly
camp, which is how I would view MAZINGER Z. A show that may be
revolutionary in its own day may be viewed differently years later;
EVANGELION may itself be viewed as quite olf-fashioned in 2015.
--Carl "Swim in the heavy water, buried in the sand" Horn
P.S. Please understand that as an otaku, "I stand in line for UNICO;"
i.e., I enjoy almost everything. If I say that I find MAZINGER Z
campy, remember that one of my favorite anime shows of all time is
SPEED RACER/MAHA GO GO GO.
Michael Liu
Charles Hagmaier (foole...@delphi.com) writes:
>
> "by definition a background process"? In trash media, maybe. What
> definitive source are you referring to? In my eyes, if you've mis-
> placed storytelling, you've lost the story.
True, but that does not change the fact that storytelling simply
facilitates the telling of the story. The story itself should remain
intact, but perhaps less effective. If storytelling is the focus, then the
story may very well be lost. Whose authority is this statement based?
No one's. I'm going by the very word "storytelling" itself. Your definition
lends presentation (storytelling) over content (story), and _that_ is trash
media.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
Charles Hagmaier (foole...@delphi.com) writes:
>
> Passive-agressive.
That hyphenated word describes me well. Would you believe me if I say I
identify quite a bit with both Shinji and his father in Eva? :-)
> You could say much the same thing about Gatchaman in it's time,
> Mike. I still say you see the shows of the '70s with rose-tinted
> glasses.
Gatchaman had Mazinger Z for sparring partner, though it's quite unlike the
match between Evangelion and Sailor Moon (I think they missed each other).
I probably see '70s more clearly than most because my anime experience
simply stopped after 1982 and did not pick up again until ten years later.
The changes the medium underwent was shockingly clear to me.
> Convince me that I should be killing myself to
> get ahold of Raideen, for instance, when I could instead be
> finding myself a copy of the new Sailor Moon Stars episodes.
Most of the '70s series would no longer have the same affect on the viewer
as they did in their heyday. They simply don't seem as fresh because the
ideas they introduced have been incorporated into everyday anime since.
Some didn't age well, period, and Raideen is one of them. All that series
had going for it was the first-ever transformable giant robot, the idea of
an ancient high-tech civilization (yes, Mu), the controversial graphic
suicide of Prince Sharking, character designs by that guy who did Venus
Wars and other forgettable flicks, and the not-very-outstanding direction
by Yoshiyuki Tomino. (The last two only interesting for historians.)
But it doesn't make brain cells die like Sailor Moon.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
Charles Hagmaier (foole...@delphi.com) writes:
>
> "Fresh ideas"? Compared to what, Mike? What's gone on in that media,
> in that market, before? Such seminal events happen often in a young
> media
It depends on your idea of originality. I agree that there is almost
nothing original, and that much of anything deemed fresh and new is really
a transfer and a combination of ideas from other media. What
makes it original for me is the level of creativity in the transfer and
combination, which is admittedly subjective. There's something in those
older shows that's much more than what Evangelion presents, and that's my
opinion.
> Such a cluster of seminal events
> characterize *every* new media, such as the beauty of TV sf in the
> early sixties (yes, even Star Trek, even tho it came along a couple
> of years after the great anthology shows were mostly done). All it
> really means is that the same old ideas, for a brief moment in time,
> become new again in the prism of a virgin medium.
True only to a certain extent. One could say Gatchaman was influenced by
Masked Rider, but no one's done a transformable hero the way those two
shows had. The transforming and the "heroing" parts were hardly new, but
it's the amount of creativity that put those parts together that made me
take notice. (That, and the high level of violence I find so delightful.)
Star Trek was indeed old and bad when it came out. I've never been able to
watch an episode with my whole brain at attention. (Actually, I rarely do
that for anything.) It deserves the early-morning time slots in Japan,
though I doubt that's the reason they were sloted there.
> It's interesting how your "seminal" shows are, respectfully, a giant robot
> show, a "five team" show, and a space opera. Especially considering
> that they aren't the shows that fans *still watch*.
I didn't say the trio created the genre. They brought new blood into their
respective niches in animated SF. Whereas any of those new shows
introduced ideas for both story and storytelling to the medium, Eva only
introduced ideas for the latter. In my mind, content rules over
presentation everyday (that's why I'm able to tolerate Japanese SFX).
Anythings that succeeds in both ranks high in my personal list.
> known, have gotten excited about Future Boy Conan, about the original
> Captain Harlock, about the Rose of Versailles (only now being translated
> via subtitles, some fiveteen years after it ran in Japan), and yes,
> about Mobile Suit Gundam. All of these ran during a two year period
> in 1978-1979. So why isn't that the "Golden Age"?
Did I say it was not? I gave the trio of shows as an example, but I guess
it wasn't clear in the context of things. Yes, they fall into the latter
(and declining) part of the age, but they are still there. The Golden Age
picked up again briefly in early eighties then the whole industry descended
into hell, and it recently entered the abyss.
I fell in love with shows like The Great Adventures of Gokuu, Knight of
Ribbon, Marine Boy as well as Warner Brothers cartoons before I came upon
Mazinger Z. Yes, it converted me, but I think I'm more justified in my
zeal than those who defend something like Akira.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
DREW WEBBER
Michael Liu (ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: > Try telling that to the people who think that these last couple
: > of years have been pretty near the golden age of Japanese animation
: > again.
: I think I am doing just that by posting on this newsgroup. I should also
: add that those people who think these years as near the Golden Age need to
: watch more anime.
Hey.. I've been watching anime since '92, and I can see that most anime
of the past few years have been kawaii dog crap. Give me the classics
anyday.. I've been really getting into Lupin lately.
--
*---Rev. Drew Webber--aka Ataru Morobosh...@bambam.magiccarpet.com--*
| "I'm just a warring faction when I walk around.. like Waterloo is |
| happening in my kidneys." - Tori Amos |
|______________________*a SuPeRdEfOrMeD Production*______________________|
Enrique Conty
In article <318D11...@tesser.com> Kun L'un Lau <cl...@tesser.com> writes:
>While we're on this subject, has any fan-sub group subtitled Neon Genesis
>Evangelion? Or has any commercial subtitling company bought it yet?
AD Vision has EVA. (And yes, they ARE going to release it on LD.)
Enrique Conty
In article <4mjg16$m...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Liu) writes:
>
>When I view something I watch for fresh ideas.
I see your point. Way back when, everyone was rushing out to explore
the new options available to them. An age where novel concepts were
the key, and easily available. Nowadays, just about every concept has
not only been tried but is old hat. The language of the medium has
been explored and charted. Anime has become Big Business, and future
advances will be more evolutionary than revolutionary. Occasionally,
a fresh, new idea will slip through past the accountants and the
marketers and the statisticians, but that's rare.
Reminds me of the first videogame boom, circa 1981,
compared against the videogame business of 15 years later.
>P.S. I missed my point again, haven't I?
No, you made your point very clear. Now I understand why you rail against
anything made after, say, 1979. I *still* disagree with your assessment
(there is a *LOT* to be said for skilled animation, narrative technique,
and combining old ideas into new forms) but now I understand why you
view things the way you do.
Enrique Conty
In article <4mj83m$k...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Liu) writes:
>
>A work by Studio Ghibli has never been synonymous with groundbreaking
>material. In fact, Miyazaki and Ghibli's works are among the most
>conservative anime titles available
Agreed! However, they are *very* good at what they set out to do,
and as such they deserve praise.
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <4ml52f$p...@bambam.magiccarpet.com>,
DREW WEBBER <at...@magiccarpet.com> wrote:
>Michael Liu (ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
>
>: > Try telling that to the people who think that these last couple
>: > of years have been pretty near the golden age of Japanese animation
>: > again.
>
>: I think I am doing just that by posting on this newsgroup. I should also
>: add that those people who think these years as near the Golden Age need to
>: watch more anime.
>
>Hey.. I've been watching anime since '92, and I can see that most anime
>of the past few years have been kawaii dog crap. Give me the classics
>anyday.. I've been really getting into Lupin lately.
Have you been watching Rayearth? Or Fushigi Yuugi? What about Key the Metal
Idol? I rather dispute that "kawaii dog crap" part...
--
/!\/!ark /!\!eidengard, CS Major, VLSI. http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~mneideng
"Fairy of sleep, controller of illusions" Operator/Jack-of-all-Trades, CACR
"Control the person for my own purpose." "Don't mess with the Dark Elves!"
-Pirotess, _Record_of_Lodoss_War_ Shadowrunner and Anime Addict
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <4mjg16$m...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
Old-school versus new-school? You be the judge. =)
>So with further ado, here goes:
>
>Most of the patrons on rec.arts.anime did not live in the Golden Age of anime.
>Oh, they might have been alive then, but they were so consumed by things
>mundane and American that they had no lives whatsoever. The era was
>characterized by its vitality and originality. The buoyancy of the times was
>such that it left a general impression on the public, and many young adults
>today can recall such favourite shows as Mazinger, Gatchaman, and Yamato.
>Having a trio of that calibre back-to-back in the early seventies was a treat
>audience today is repeatedly denied. I deny not that the techniques employed
>in animation and storytelling in those series were sometimes abysmal, and many
>neophytes to the hobby wince at the sight of these relative dinosaurs.
"Neophyte" is perhaps a questionable word choice here...If you are talking
about folks who didn't live in what you're calling the "Golden Age" of anime
and didn't have the pleasure(?) of growing up to the shows you list, then I'll
agree heartily: personally speaking, "wince" is a mild term for my reaction to
some of the older shows. I trust you're not using "neophyte" as a perjorative
to imply that folks who _do_ wince at the aforementioned shows are somehow less
worthy members of the audience. =)
>But that was not the point--if they had any--of those classics.
>
>When I view something I watch for fresh ideas. Unlike Evangelion, the shows in
>the Golden Age of anime often presented ideas for a genre that were seminal.
>Furthermore, they not only caught the attention of the infant fandom, but also
>the population in general. Can one imagine normal adults (i.e., one who is not
>particularly interested in anime) rushing home to watch Eva? It happened with
>Gatchaman. The staff of those series were striving for something bold and new,
>whether it be animation, plot, story, or sex and violence. The astonishing
>thing was, they succeeded on all fronts. Such success inevitably gave rise to
>copycat shows, but those shows tried to improve on the originals (hence
>"seminal") and were successes in their own right.
Well, "new" ideas introduced into the appropriate intellectual vacuum have
always worked wonders. The best example I can think of is Tolkien, most
commonly credited as the seminal "founder" of the fantasy literary genre. His
work filled a niche previously untouched by nearly all other literature before
it, and it rapidly gained acceptance after the original round of critics'
voices were heard and submerged. It should also be rememberd that the Tolkien
explosion (during the 1960's) happened during a time when the demand for
escapist entertainment was incredibly high; I might conjecture that the runaway
popularity of certain titles in the "Golden Age" of anime was motivated by an
acute demand that has since been blunted by a "glut" in the market. After
all, why be a fanatical devotee of one show when you can be a lukewarm devotee
of ten? And people who have _grown_up_ in a glutted market are probably less
likely to form fanatical fan-relationships than those who grew up in leaner
times. Philosophically, I'd say it seems to be the tendency of the "huddled
masses" to go for quantity over quality. =)
>The band of originators and the skillful copycats were the Golden Age. Their
>influence was such that everyone in the broadcast range was affected.
Well, when one is the "founder" of a genre, it is immensely easy to affect
those that come after you. Conversely, it is immensely difficult to affect
those _around_ you once the field is crowded. The "diffusive" success of the
early titles probably says less about their quality or influencialness (in
absolute terms) than it says about the effectiveness (or even existence) of
their competition at the time they arose. Succinctly, I don't think the
old shows would have seemed quite as wonderful at the time _if_ they had had
some higher-quality competition.
[munch]
>It will take at least five series of Eva's class being simultaneously on the
>air to recreate the atmosphere of the Golden Age. The sophistication of
>Evangelion does not matter, for the impact of Getter Robo on the audience in
>the seventies is in some ways the same as the impact of Eva on the audience in
>the nineties. What the anime industry truly needs is another show that is
>ground-breaking and attention-getting as those shows in the seventies. Like it
>or not, the average person today will remember Sailor Moon, Slam Dunk and
>Dragonball much more vividly than they will Evangelion--if they remember the
>name at all.
Well, I may as well grab the banner of "nay-sayer" and assert that the Golden
Age (as you call it) is probably gone for good. And if I may be so
presumptuous, this is probably a good thing. If the "Golden Age" was a time
of heightened devotion, it seems that it was that way because of famine
rather than superlative feast. If new ideas were being injected, they were
being injected using techniques that have been greatly improved upon and in
many cases surpassed in quality by later offerings. You mentioned above that
"originality" figures heavily into your utility function. I must say that
my utility function focuses much more heavily on _quality_ of presentation.
Why should I spend my time watching an old, poorly done take on a concept when
a newer, better done version is available? To invoke the name of Tolkien
again, his works have a number of traits that have been greatly improved upon
by some of the latter authors, and given my vantage point as a person who has
grown up in the "Latter Days", I feel like I can afford to select quality over
innovativeness. By way of analogy, I could bore everyone with tales of the
Bad Old Days of telecommunications when a 300-baud modem and an Atari 800 were
cutting edge gear for the information revolution. "Sure there warn't no
Worrld-Weyed Webb, but damn-straight if'n we didn' have us some _real_ BBS's
back then!" *crusty voice obligatory* Sure you rushed off to your computer
to attack-dial that crummy BBS for three hours straight; it was one of two
in the entire area code! In these days of the proliferation of the Internet,
we wouldn't dream of doing such a thing. Bulletin boards have been
effectively obsoleted, except for the antiquarian charm that probably only
the "old-timers" feel. =)
In short, I'd rather have a good remake than a poor original. Give me titles
like the Patlabor series, which can hardly be called original for its use of
mecha, evil megacorps, police heros, and numerous other charges. Give me
Fushigi Yuugi, with its synthesis of classical shoujo and shounen elements.
Give me Lodoss with its classical high-fantasy plot, or Key with its ancient
"how differs man from machine" theme. As a relative "newcomer" to the scene,
I can appreciate the fondness that scarcity could produce; the market is
still slim enough that good translations for the U.S. are hard to come by,
and a college student's budget only permits so much indulgence in Japanese
imports. However, I guess I must cite "irreconcilable"(?) differences in
the way I look at anime and respectfully differ with your assessment of the
importance of shows like Evangelion. As I see it, the important thing is
for _someone_ to keep pushing the state of the art and assuring that there is
at least some small number of high quality offerings for those reckless
enough to brave Sturgeon's Law and try to find and enjoy them. =)
After all, I'm already dealing with offerings I consider high-quality going
out of print on LD. =) As long as the members of the old-school and new-school
can put down our respective weapons of war and still enjoy the anime in their
own individual way, I'd say the system is still working. And that's what
really counts the most.
>Michael Liu
>ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
>
>P.S. I missed my point again, haven't I?
I didn't think so. =)
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <4mj83m$k...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>A work by Studio Ghibli has never been synonymous with groundbreaking
>material. In fact, Miyazaki and Ghibli's works are among the most
>public and are avoided by anime fanatics in general (though not over
>here, which proves other points that are irrelevant to the current
>topic). Their works are only considered technically excellent by
>many. Such material has never meant award-winning material to me.
While Studio Ghibli works are probably not meant to be iconoclastic by way
of their "political" or "social" commentary, I think they at least manage to
put out some extremely high technical-quality artwork. I can think of very
few anime that I'd rate as visually sumptuous as Laputa, for example.
>Ghost in the Shell and its spiritual predecessor, Patlabor 2 the
>Movie, are works that gain more accolades than popularity. While I
>can't yet give a personal judgement of GitS, many comments on the
>film give me the impression that it is indeed nothing more than an
>empty shell.
Well, Ghost handles certain technical points (like backgrounds) _very_ well,
while apparently falling short on others (like character animation and
possibly screenplay). In my not-so humble opinion, Ghost falls substantially
short of the masterwork that was Patlabor 2.
>In short, nothing gave Evangelion solid competition. When no tigers
>are in the mountains, monkeys rule.
I would still assert that some of the other series going have some serious
clout, even under the stringent "do something to the audience" test. Fushigi
Yuugi seems the most obvious one, with inordinately high animation quality
for a TV series, and a plot as nearly as gripping in certain regards as
Maison Ikkoku's was. Certainly FY is orders of magnitude better than most
other TV series in terms of plot progression per episode.
As a side note, what do you think about the "effect" that Sailor Moon has had
on its primary target audience? Even though that show is hardly "profound",
it seems to have won a fairly far-reaching crop of fans. How do you interpret
that under your "fan-affecting" criterion?
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <4mj7qo$k...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>The storytelling is also not the central thrust of the series, and no
>storytelling ever can or should be (it is by definition a background
>process).
I don't think I can agree on this point. There are in fact many people who
would claim that the storytelling process _itself_ is crucially important, even
more so than the story being told. It is the ability to communicate with one's
audience, to enrapture and enfold in images and impressions that supplant and
transcend the mundania of reality, that many find truly magical. The same
could be (and has been) said about the process of making music.
It takes talent to devise a story whose _meaning_ is significant. It also
takes talent to _tell_ stories in a persuasive, evocative way. It takes truly
enviable amounts of talent to do both, and how great the satisfaction of
the audience when such talent is brought to light? =)
Anand Chelian
>> Try telling that to the people who think that these last couple
>> of years have been pretty near the golden age of Japanese animation
>> again.
>I think I am doing just that by posting on this newsgroup. I should also
>add that those people who think these years as near the Golden Age need to
>watch more anime.
Having seen Harlock, and a few other anime from the "Golden Age", I must
say that I am not particularly impressed. Granted some of the modern
stuff is tripe (I would list most of it as tripe), but the old stuff,
for the most part, cannot compare.
To make an analogy, the stuff from the Golden Age is like a Model T, or
an equivalent machine. What it did for the time was impressive, and as
a feat of economy and engineering, they are marvels of the time. But I
will not say that the Model T is better than a modern car for the simple
reason that it is not. While Harlock does have a lot of elements that
have since become trite, and I can understand them in context, the
amount of advancement in storytelling techniques has rendered Harlock
(in a modern context) pale and old.
Harlock is a decent story, but it has no real point that appealed to me.
It seems more about a "Really Cool Guy" (tm) rather than having a point.
I give it credit for introducing some story telling techniques, but I
will also say that those techniques have (in general) been futher refined
and expounded on.
>Seriously, if the twit is called it would not be yours truly. This
>newsgroup lacks the perspective of anime fans who have been watching the
>growth of the medium for over twenty years, and many of those older fans
>think the same way I do.
They have been gone a while, and it doesn't look like the rest of the
anime community has stopped to look back. I don't know whether this is
a good or bad thing.
>> Okay, the story is great, and finely crafted, but it is *not* the
>> central thrust of the show. To compare it to Mazinga Z, and the like, is
>> to understand the show in a very shallow manner.
>At no point did I say GAINAX was not being creative with Evangelion. The
>main point I'm trying to make is that contrary to many opinions stated in
>this newsgroup, no new ideas were presented in Eva. The series is a
>creative giant robot story, but that alone does not distinguish from many
>others that have appeared over the years.
You may say that Icarus is a story only about technology. You can say
that _Hamlet_ was about succession, you can say _Romeo_and_Juliet_ is
about feuds. The surface is not the core, and it is effectively unfair
to say that Evengelion is only about robots. Most giant robot shows fall
firmly into the shonen tripe class of anime, with lots of noise and
flash, and little content other than juvenile wish fulfillment (which I
think is good to see at times).
>The storytelling is also not the central thrust of the series, and no
>storytelling ever can or should be (it is by definition a background
>process). I do not mind psychobabble, but I find the points Eva trying to
>present laughable, somewhat like an old man listening to the meaning of
>life told by a teenager. (I don't even understand why I find them
>laughable, but I haven't figured myself out yet.)
A story can be told for two reasons that I know: a) simply to entertain,
b) to get a point across. I know of no other good reasons (well, there
is make money, but at that point, the story needs to entertain to get
the author money). I have a feeling that Evangelion is one series that
is trying to get a point across. The measure by which I feel stories
such as Evangelion should be judged is: a) does it get it's point across,
b) is the point worth listening to. You may find that it did not get
it's point across, or that it was pointless, which are very good reasons
to criticize it. Other factors that I judge important are the way the
story is engineered, the techniques it uses. A well engineered story may
distract me from the lack of plot, and often a compelling point may
overcome substandard techniques.
But to simply look at the technique will always reveal something that is
amusing but not meaningful. I often find that some of the "classics" are
often better works of technique, with little message. This applies just
as well to the "Golden Age." For a show to make it onto my list of anime
that is good, it must have a point (message), otherwise, while I may enjoy
it immensely, it won't leave a lasting impression.
>There was no point to Eva, but it was a good series.
This may very well be.
>Michael Liu
>ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
--
Anand Chelian | ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~anandc
"History is made by the few, and wielded over the many."
Michael Liu
Mark L. Neidengard (mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu) writes:
>
> I would still assert that some of the other series going have some serious
> clout, even under the stringent "do something to the audience" test. Fushigi
> Yuugi seems the most obvious one, with inordinately high animation quality
> for a TV series, and a plot as nearly as gripping in certain regards as
> Maison Ikkoku's was. Certainly FY is orders of magnitude better than most
> other TV series in terms of plot progression per episode.
High quality animation in Fushigi Yuugi? Have fans' standards and
expectations fallen so low? ^_^; They couldn't even hold to the chara
designs in the first four episodes. I can't quite comment on the plot of
the overall series, but I've yet to see any sensitive depth in the early
episodes.
I wouldn't call FY "dog crap," but it's certainly just a cult series. I
want a series that slaps the population! Gainax should understand this
desire better than most.
> As a side note, what do you think about the "effect" that Sailor Moon has had
> on its primary target audience?
Lower IQ.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
Mark L. Neidengard (mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu) writes:
>
> Well, "new" ideas introduced into the appropriate intellectual vacuum have
> always worked wonders.
One of my points. Anime is still such a vacuum that what Gainax had
accomplished with Evangelion was no great feat. It may have been difficult
for them to tell the tale, but the technical achievements they had to
surpass were hardly daunting. I'm just trying to put a more objective
perspective on the whole thing. ;-)
> Succinctly, I don't think the
> old shows would have seemed quite as wonderful at the time _if_ they had had
> some higher-quality competition.
True. Neither would today's. It's the relative competition that matters.
To jolt viewers the way those '70s shows did today would take something
more than Eva.
> Well, I may as well grab the banner of "nay-sayer" and assert that the Golden
> Age (as you call it) is probably gone for good. And if I may be so
> presumptuous, this is probably a good thing. If the "Golden Age" was a time
> of heightened devotion, it seems that it was that way because of famine
> rather than superlative feast.
The number of anime shows on the air during the "Golden Age" was probably
greater than the number today, and they likely earned higher ratings on the
average. Famine? Compared to the six-pack, 30-minute capsules of anime
commonly consumed today, people had feasts back then.
Oh, and fandom did not exist in any way you know it. The participants were
literally in their infancy.
> my utility function focuses much more heavily on _quality_ of presentation.
> Why should I spend my time watching an old, poorly done take on a concept when
> a newer, better done version is available?
Some people like vintage automobile; I don't give them a damn. I don't
think I ever said people should drop everything and grab the oldies, but
damn it, they should give them a look! ^_^;
> By way of analogy, I could bore everyone with tales of the
> Bad Old Days of telecommunications when a 300-baud modem and an Atari 800 were
> cutting edge gear for the information revolution.
You're talking to a guy typing on an Apple IIGS with a 2400-baud modem. I
use a Pentium at work and regularly browse the Web, but that's beside the
point. :-)
> importance of shows like Evangelion. As I see it, the important thing is
> for _someone_ to keep pushing the state of the art and assuring that there is
> at least some small number of high quality offerings for those reckless
> enough to brave Sturgeon's Law and try to find and enjoy them. =)
Gainax pushed the envelope in a way that no one could follow them, because
there is nothing to follow. I consider such exercise futile but amusing.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
After re-reading my posts on this thread, I realize there was indeed one
point I did not quite get across.
Although I compare my love for older anime from the Golden Age to some
people's fondness for vintage automobiles, there is one key ingredient
missing from modern anime that can only be found in the works of
yesteryear: spirit. (If this word is too strong for you, you can call it
a quaint charm; but it is much more than that.)
The best analogy I can give for the current state of anime is, amusingly,
the current state of American comics. Many younger readers today
undoubtedly wince, grimace, and make retching sounds when they behold the
classics by Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby, and the other greats, yet there is
something undeniably right about their works. (It's a feel, not a reason.)
While today's artists may draw better, all that was good about American
comics is missing from most of today's titles. When I looked at anime
after a ten-year absence, this was the immediate reaction I had. The newer
works aren't just different; they feel wrong.
Evangelion is like Marvel's _Untold Tales of Spider-Man_. It's not quite
what those oldies were, but it's a giant step in the right direction. The
industry may give us the equivalent of _Marvels_ or the upcoming _Kingdom
Come_ once in a while, but that's like a drop of water in a desert. The
anime industry has stooped as low as the American comic book industry in
insulting customers with perceived fan services, and Eva is no exception
(ten notches down in respect for Gainax).
The anime industry will have to rediscover itself. With Eva and its
temporal follow-up, Escaflowne, there is hope again in more than half a
decade. If the Ultraman series this fall proves successful, there may be a
twin revival of SFX and anime, and the good times may roll again.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
DREW WEBBER
Mark L. Neidengard (mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu) wrote:
: >Hey.. I've been watching anime since '92, and I can see that most anime
: >of the past few years have been kawaii dog crap. Give me the classics
: >anyday.. I've been really getting into Lupin lately.
: Have you been watching Rayearth? Or Fushigi Yuugi? What about Key the Metal
: Idol? I rather dispute that "kawaii dog crap" part...
Other then Rayearth, I haven't seen any of the above. And I hope people
don't think I'm flaming shows like Crayon Shin-Chan and Cha-Cha, which I
COULD get into. I'm thinking more along the lines of Tenchi Muyo!,
Plastic Little, and Devil Hunter Yohko. (Yes, I know I'm going to get
disembowled for this...) I'm mostly flaming OVAs here, though this can
also been seen in a lot of TV shows. While all three of these are
entertaining to some degree, I am REALLY getting sick of anime where the
main attraction is the size of the girls' tits.
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <4mme9o$m...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>Mark L. Neidengard (mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu) writes:
>>
>> clout, even under the stringent "do something to the audience" test. Fushigi
>> Yuugi seems the most obvious one, with inordinately high animation quality
>> for a TV series, and a plot as nearly as gripping in certain regards as
>> Maison Ikkoku's was. Certainly FY is orders of magnitude better than most
>> other TV series in terms of plot progression per episode.
>
>High quality animation in Fushigi Yuugi? Have fans' standards and
>expectations fallen so low? ^_^; They couldn't even hold to the chara
>designs in the first four episodes. I can't quite comment on the plot of
>the overall series, but I've yet to see any sensitive depth in the early
>episodes.
Well, the TV series constitutes what I would call a distinct improvement over
the earlier manga character designs, which have by now improved by quite a
bit (the same could be said of Bastard!! or A!MG). As far as plot depth, yes
you do have to get at least a few episodes into it before things really start
shaking. But by my reckoning, the plot per episode only increases
with time...
Tze-yau Huang
zi...@netcom.com (Elizabeth HL Horn)
> was made through misdirection). I thought about your remark that no
> normal adult would rush home to watch EVA, but there's a letter from a
> 30-year-old woman in the March NEWTYPE which regards EVA as a show an
> adult can actually enjoy for its own merits rather than as strictly
Are you talking about Shinobu Nimura(sp??)? With all due respect to
the show and her, I don't think any one who has a regular column
on " Newtype" can be consider"normal".(In term of being regular non-
otaku/non-anime industry related.) The two Eva releated letters
printed in March Newtype forum are both from 15-years old girls.
Of course, I don't personally know any "normal" adults who rushed home
to watch those golden oldies, either.
I like the show. But I won't put too much into the award. The
prestige of GrandPrix had declined since early 90s, when it was
nolonger sponsered jointly be Newtype, Animedia, and Animage. Now
it's just the in-house poll for a single magazine.(To be fair, I
would say that it should win with bigger margin if Newtype readers are
invloved.) The fact that "Zillion" got the nod in the past doesn't
speak well for the award either.
Jim " Asuka = Quess " Huang
PS. I asked a while ago about what did the CV for Shinji really said
in the CV calender in that issue. Nobody answered yet.
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <4mmf9m$m...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>Mark L. Neidengard (mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu) writes:
>> Age (as you call it) is probably gone for good. And if I may be so
>> presumptuous, this is probably a good thing. If the "Golden Age" was a time
>> of heightened devotion, it seems that it was that way because of famine
>> rather than superlative feast.
>
>greater than the number today, and they likely earned higher ratings on the
>average. Famine? Compared to the six-pack, 30-minute capsules of anime
>commonly consumed today, people had feasts back then.
Somehow I have difficulty describing Harlock as a "feast" in comparison to
some of the more current material (as an example). I probably worded my
contention wrong. I should have said something like "the devotion to the shows
of the era is more akin to a starving man eating scraps than a well-fed man
selecting choice morsels". Now I know that _scraps_ is probably _too_ strong
a term, but it seems to point in the right direction. I mean sure, I watched
the dubs of Gatchaman when I was a _really_ little kid, as well as "Robotech"
and a few others. Sure, I loved them at the time (Macek'ered plot and all)
because that's all there was. I know for a fact that if I had had things like
Rayearth and Fushigi Yuugi to watch back then I would have abandoned Gatchaman
without a second thought.
>> my utility function focuses much more heavily on _quality_ of presentation.
>> Why should I spend my time watching an old, poorly done take on a concept
>> when a newer, better done version is available?
>
>Some people like vintage automobile; I don't give them a damn. I don't
>think I ever said people should drop everything and grab the oldies, but
>damn it, they should give them a look! ^_^;
That much I'll agree with: if nothing else, I think it's good for people to
see something with their own eyes before criticising it too seriously. Also,
there can be a certain satisfaction that comes from knowing the source of so
many "commonplace" plot devices. I made certain to show Iczer One (a sub) to
the Caltech Anime Society this year; the heightened enjoyment the crew felt
when seeing some of the latter-day material (especially Rayearth 2, for some
_unknown_ reason =) was tangible.
>> importance of shows like Evangelion. As I see it, the important thing is
>> for _someone_ to keep pushing the state of the art and assuring that there is
>> at least some small number of high quality offerings for those reckless
>> enough to brave Sturgeon's Law and try to find and enjoy them. =)
>
>Gainax pushed the envelope in a way that no one could follow them, because
>there is nothing to follow. I consider such exercise futile but amusing.
Nothing to follow? How so?
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>True, but that does not change the fact that storytelling simply
>facilitates the telling of the story. The story itself should remain
>intact, but perhaps less effective. If storytelling is the focus, then the
>story may very well be lost. Whose authority is this statement based?
>No one's. I'm going by the very word "storytelling" itself. Your definition
>lends presentation (storytelling) over content (story), and _that_ is trash
>media.
storytelling. Your *definition* was counterintuitive, and not
clearly explained. As it happens, my reply made your point for you.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs Department of Silent Typos
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>It depends on your idea of originality. I agree that there is almost
>nothing original, and that much of anything deemed fresh and new is really
>a transfer and a combination of ideas from other media. What
>makes it original for me is the level of creativity in the transfer and
>combination, which is admittedly subjective. There's something in those
>older shows that's much more than what Evangelion presents, and that's my
>opinion.
clear to the rest of the crowd here. The last time I heard you go on
about this indefinable "content", it was something about bloody-mindedness,
rough, tough, "mensch" heros, and violence. Is this content that you're
responding to, or a "feel".... that is to say, a certain rough, vital...
brand of... storytelling?
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
Anand Chelian
In article <4mmf9m$m...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Mark L. Neidengard (mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu) writes:
>> Well, "new" ideas introduced into the appropriate intellectual vacuum have
>> always worked wonders.
>One of my points. Anime is still such a vacuum that what Gainax had
>accomplished with Evangelion was no great feat. It may have been difficult
>for them to tell the tale, but the technical achievements they had to
>surpass were hardly daunting. I'm just trying to put a more objective
>perspective on the whole thing. ;-)
This statement seems slightly at odds w/ your previous statement of the
newness of the Golden Age anime, and the unoriginality of modern anime.
As for the technical achievements, they would seem to be the mecha shows
of the late 70s and early 80s that it would be competing with, i.e. Gundam,
Dangaioh, etc..
>> Succinctly, I don't think the
>> old shows would have seemed quite as wonderful at the time _if_ they had had
>> some higher-quality competition.
>True. Neither would today's. It's the relative competition that matters.
>To jolt viewers the way those '70s shows did today would take something
>more than Eva.
Well, many authors today can write better than quite a few of "classics."
The simple fact is that there are more authors today, and _Jane_Eyre_ just
isn't good enough anymore. But there is another dimension to consider,
and I will address it where you address it below.
>> Well, I may as well grab the banner of "nay-sayer" and assert that the Golden
>> Age (as you call it) is probably gone for good. And if I may be so
>> presumptuous, this is probably a good thing. If the "Golden Age" was a time
>> of heightened devotion, it seems that it was that way because of famine
>> rather than superlative feast.
>The number of anime shows on the air during the "Golden Age" was probably
>greater than the number today, and they likely earned higher ratings on the
>average. Famine? Compared to the six-pack, 30-minute capsules of anime
>commonly consumed today, people had feasts back then.
Well, TV was mostly camp in those days, so if you show slightly adventure-
some camp, in a format that the audience does not know is for kids, then,
yes, you will have higher ratings (relative). When in the land of plenty,
it is hard to work up enthusiasm for what you grabbed when everything was
worse. Nowadays, TV is not quite so much camp anymore.
>Oh, and fandom did not exist in any way you know it. The participants were
>literally in their infancy.
>> my utility function focuses much more heavily on _quality_ of presentation.
>> Why should I spend my time watching an old, poorly done take on a concept when
>> a newer, better done version is available?
>Some people like vintage automobile; I don't give them a damn. I don't
>think I ever said people should drop everything and grab the oldies, but
>damn it, they should give them a look! ^_^;
The anime fans of the modern age are (relatively speaking) spoiled. They
are used to the comforts and excellence of the modern age. Unfortunately,
they seem to spend a lot of time on what they admit is camp (sorta like
the romance novels in the book industry). They also often fail to under-
stand the accomplishments of the older schools that pioneered the
techniques in use.
But just as you said, the vintage cars are vintage, this does not make them
better (in fact they are usually worse). The only real reason to look at
them is to bask in their historical significance. Heck, I can look at all
the old vintage cars/anime I want, it doesn't mean that the stuff today
isn't better.
>> importance of shows like Evangelion. As I see it, the important thing is
>> for _someone_ to keep pushing the state of the art and assuring that there is
>> at least some small number of high quality offerings for those reckless
>> enough to brave Sturgeon's Law and try to find and enjoy them. =)
>Gainax pushed the envelope in a way that no one could follow them, because
>there is nothing to follow. I consider such exercise futile but amusing.
Anyone can try and follow what they did. It seems to me that the setting
(i.e. the mecha elements of the show) is almost incidental. If people want
to follow up Evangelion, they simply have to find something to say, and say
it in a similar manner. To date, I must say that few people in any genre
seem willing to address issues with as much frankness and honesty as Gainax
seems to be willing to do.
Charles Hagmaier
Enrique Conty <co...@rtsg.mot.com> writes:
>I see your point. Way back when, everyone was rushing out to explore
>the new options available to them. An age where novel concepts were
>the key, and easily available. Nowadays, just about every concept has
>not only been tried but is old hat. The language of the medium has
>been explored and charted. Anime has become Big Business, and future
>advances will be more evolutionary than revolutionary. Occasionally,
>a fresh, new idea will slip through past the accountants and the
>marketers and the statisticians, but that's rare.
run through once or twice, and the *newness* of the medium has worn
off like that new-vinyl smell on a new car, that is the point where
the creator is left upon his own devices, where he passes from
the *translation* of chestnuts to the new venue, and faces the blank
canvas. This is the difference between Twilight Zone and X-Files.
When you have ceased to transcribe, and you begin to dream... this
is when the Golden Age arrives. I'm of the opinion that the Golden
Age comes in dribs and drabs, in patches of time and localities of
creativity. I would argue that this is the difference between
the first Yamato series, and Arrevederchi Yamato, and even further,
from Yamato to Harlock. The Golden Age was with us in 1970, as
Lupin first graced the screen. It appeared in numerous ways in
numerous guises to each and every lover of the media, in their
own times. To declare that the Age for gold is past, is only to
say that you have ceased to find gilded moments. There are others
out there discovering Rayearth for the first time, or glorying in
their personal understanding of Evangelion.
Every idea is fresh to an innocent, experiencing for the first
time. Great work is the creation of innocence in the long-jaded.
Great work makes the old new again.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
To do something for the first time well, is a gift. To do
something again, well, as if it was the first time, is a
glory.
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>The number of anime shows on the air during the "Golden Age" was probably
>greater than the number today, and they likely earned higher ratings on the
>average. Famine? Compared to the six-pack, 30-minute capsules of anime
>commonly consumed today, people had feasts back then.
shot. If you actually look at the comprehensive list of shows (damn,
forget who compiled it... the guy who was doing the monthly breakdown
of... Curtis Hoffman! That's the guy) the absolute yearly number of
series continued to grow (barring a late-seventies drought) until
the early 90's, when it contracted until 1994, when it began to
expand again. Of course, some of the series began to run shorter,
but the point still remains. Your point is not proven.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
Peter Evans
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>> zi...@netcom.com (Elizabeth HL Horn) wrote:
>> Gainax's 26-episode TV show NEON GENESIS EVANGELION won the 18th
>> Annual Animage Grand Prix, their annual reader poll, for "Best Anime,"
>> as reported in the May issue.
Considering the level of unmitigated HYPE from the kadokawa team,
in the way of huge EVA articles, sponsoring the show, adverts for
EVA in the middle of EVA.
Also, if the rabid orations of fj.rec.animation are anything to
go by, where they were seriously discussing fj.rec.animation.gainax
then the above win was a foregone conclusion.
>It should be pointed out that whatever anime was on Japan's airwaves
>offered no competition whatsoever to Evangelion. The show won by default
>in a sense.
In a sense, this is true. Although EVA rather fell apart at the
end, it was pretty much the only show worth watching for half a
year. Certainly, it was the only show with robots that had a plot
extending for more than 1 episode.
>It does not in any way mean the show is bad, but it's not as good as most
>people in this newsgroup make it out to be. There are many light-years
>between the skillful storytelling in Eva and the seminal ideas in Mazinger
>Z and Gatchaman. GAINAX appear to be more the craftsman than the
>originator.
Ah, but if EVA had been made then, and Mazinger Z now, you would
be saying just that about Mazinger Z
>Whatever Eva may be, it is also not a homage to Ultraman. Both the form
>and the spirit (especially the spirit) are missing.
I'm sorry, where did this come from? Ultraman is in no way related
to EVA unless you count anthropomophic giants fighting in a city
with a total disregard for the residents.
"Tokyo is closed today due to a small altercation between Ultraman
and a 500' jellybaby. Normal business will be resumed as soon as
the rubber buildings recover." ^_^
Peter
----+
--
^ o \\ Founding Member - Urara-Chan Fan Club. Kakazu Yumi-Chan no DaiFan!
U \Beh! \\ "Otoko ha Tsuyoku, Onna ha Yasashiku ..." (yappa muri ka na)
Anand Chelian
In article <4mjg16$m...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Furthermore, they not only caught the attention of the infant fandom, but also
>the population in general. Can one imagine normal adults (i.e., one who is not
>particularly interested in anime) rushing home to watch Eva? It happened with
>Gatchaman.
Just as a minor technical note, there were many fewer VCRs back when
Gatchaman was being run. Therefore saying people don't run home doesn't
carry quite as much weight as you would have us believe.
The fact is that technology, and technique, and competition make today a
far different world than the 70s. I don't really think a fair comparision
can be made (as far as popularity goes). The only fair grounds (IMO) are
the quality of the story told, and the storytelling techniques used; in
general, the modern shows get the nod over the older shows.
Kenneth Arromdee
In article <4mobmg$g...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
Mark L. Neidengard <mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>I should have said something like "the devotion to the shows
>of the era is more akin to a starving man eating scraps than a well-fed man
>selecting choice morsels". Now I know that _scraps_ is probably _too_ strong
>a term, but it seems to point in the right direction. I mean sure, I watched
>the dubs of Gatchaman when I was a _really_ little kid, as well as "Robotech"
>and a few others. Sure, I loved them at the time (Macek'ered plot and all)
>because that's all there was. I know for a fact that if I had had things like
>Rayearth and Fushigi Yuugi to watch back then I would have abandoned Gatchaman
>without a second thought.
I should add something here. I recently watched Star Blazers. All 80-odd
episodes of it.
I had seen some of these before, and it was the first anime I ever watched
as a fan rather than as a kid watching TV, so I stuck it out to the end
(inserting a rented Yamato: The New Voyage in the right spot).
It dates. It dates _really_ badly, with bad animation by modern standards,
bad science, cliches that were cliches even then, and formula. I watched it
for the nostalgia value. I'd probably watch other anime from that time period
for overall nostalgia value, but if Yamato had been made today, I'd probably
ignore it in favor of something more modern (if I could get any; I haven't
seen a single ep of Evangelion).
(To be fair, once in a blue moon I buy a Robotech Perfect Collection--I never
saw much original Robotech so in most cases I've seen only the subs--and it
dates a lot less.)
--
Ken Arromdee (arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, karr...@nyx.cs.du.edu;
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~arromdee)
"Kermit the Pig?!?!?!?!" -- The Muppet Show
Michael Liu
Charles Hagmaier (foole...@delphi.com) writes:
>
> What, were they a full hour long back then? Cheap shot, Mike, cheap
> shot.
No, but they usually last a year and each episode was a couple of minutes
longer. The stories on average were longer. I'm no proving any point
with that reply except to say people didn't have an anime famine back then.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
Anand Chelian (ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu) writes:
>
> Just as a minor technical note, there were many fewer VCRs back when
> Gatchaman was being run. Therefore saying people don't run home doesn't
> carry quite as much weight as you would have us believe.
Correction: there were no VCRs. Still, it was an age in which 40% of audience
watched Masked Rider. But yes, people may tape more shows these days.
> The fact is that technology, and technique, and competition make today a
> far different world than the 70s. I don't really think a fair comparision
> can be made (as far as popularity goes).
Still, story, storytelling and animation are still up for competition.
Modern anime loses the third almost each and every time. The closest
I can say the modern anime has lost is its soul. Most of the stuff is
just pretty trash these days.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Ataru Moroboshi
On Tue, 7 May 1996, Anand Chelian wrote:
> >also been seen in a lot of TV shows. While all three of these are
> >entertaining to some degree, I am REALLY getting sick of anime where the
> >main attraction is the size of the girls' tits.
>
> Well then. I'd suggest that you watch some of the shows that were
> mentioned. There are several shows that are avaiable in the US that
> would make you happier to watch than some of the stuff that seems to
> be making you unhappy now.
Uhhh.. what did I say in that message that makes you think I'm a clueless
newbie to anime? I was just bitching about how a lot of the newer anime
is crap.. that doesn't mean I haven't seen a lot of other anime that I DO
like.
> There is also Maison Ikkoku (which is being released by Viz, though
> I would recommend against getting stuff from them, you are probably
> better off getting the fansubs if you can find them).
I already have 30 some episodes of MI fan subbed.
> A generally good guide is to listen to Carl Horn.
If you like Gainax... <G>
> My personal recommendations are: Wings of Honneamise,
Saw the premiere of the dub at AnimEast '94. It's shallow philosophy left
a VERY bad taste in my mouth.
> Patlabor 2,
I haven't seen it yet, but after all of the praise I've heard for it, and
the fact that I loved Oshii's UY2 and Angel's Egg, it's defintely on my
"to see" list.
> Gundam 0080,
Haven't seen it. I'm not a huge mech fan, though I've heard some good
things about this one.
> and Key the Metal Idol.
This is another one I was surprised to here so much praise about. What is
this one about?
Michael Liu
Gees, this thread will teach Carl Horn not to post award winners ever
again. ^_^ Newbies should take notes on how to wage a polite argument.
So far the only emotional participant is the Fool Eternal. He just won't
lie down and be roadkill.
The best analogy for old anime vs. new anime is, like I already stated, old
American comics vs. new. But people seemed to have ignored that.
Yes, old anime is cliche-ridden, but so are new ones. Anime has evolved
little over those days, and devolved in areas such as animation. There is
far less experimentation these days, and no one besides Gainax is making an
effort at creating better entertainment.
Face it: most of you can't stand the sight of old anime for the same reason
many of you can't tolerate the music your parents and grandparents
listen--prejudice. (Of what kind and for what reason, I don't know.) The
artwork in the old classics may be old (but anatomically more correct on
the average), but the animation is certainly better. Mark said his friends
are grateful for Ray Earth after Iczer One, but both are modern trash so
the comparison means little. (I've watched anime for so long that Iczer
One is recent.)
Old anime may not age well because what was innovative then is no longer so,
but people have trouble seeing that modern offerings aren't much better.
There's a world to be opened up there, and what Gainax has accomplished
with Eva is no more than what everybody but Toei was trying back in the
Golden Age. There is no drive in the industry left. Gainax is doing
things with the right attitude, but they are simply restoring the old
status quo--and they're the only ones doing so.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
P.S. I should also add that older anime didn't cater specifically to young
people.
Elizabeth HL Horn
Maybe it's helpful to remember in these discussions that three out of
five of Gainax's works--their three most interesting--have been, to a
significant extent, about Gainax themselves, including EVANGELION.
When we debate stories, remember that this is the essential story. Toren
Smith reminds us that the anime industry is full of people as strange
as we are; and those who are too strange for the rest of the industry
often go to work for Gainax. They have a sense of self unusual in
Japan, let alone the rest of the industry; pride means a great deal to
them, and they take the consequences of their pride as well.
Some have criticized Gainax for making anime that is, at heart, about
themselves, but I think that's part of their appeal for me. I am more
interested in a story about the feelings of real people than in the
story concepts themselves. It might not work if Gainax did not
represent the most powerful collection of original design talent in
the industry; fortunately, they do. Headgear, Otomo, and Ghibli have
all assumed their cinematic prominence in the years since HONNEAMISE;
yet if Gainax could have one of their budgets (a highly questionable
prospect), I believe they would astound the anime world again.
As Anno said, cute girls and robots are nothing new. Perhaps the only
original stories left to be told are indeed the stories about one's self.
--Carl "Sugar taste" Horn
Macek wants to get his NADIA on TV, apparently encouraged by the
success of the totally dissimilar REN & STIMPY. Can you imagine the
uproar at a cartoon show that uses a 14-year old as a sex object?
--Matt Murray and C.B. Smith, LET'S ANIME #4
Leonard Wu
> Michael Liu
> ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
>
> P.S. I should also add that older anime didn't cater specifically to young
> people.
Why am I seeing this again?????????????
Is this some kind of gimmick?
Lenny Wu
Elizabeth HL Horn
I love Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby's stuff too, although much of the
"spirit" must have been Stan Lee's writing as well. As I suggested in
my earlier post, though, the "spirit" of Gainax's work is a
particularistic one; it's the spirit of themselves (one does or does
not have to like this approach). For that reason, their work may not
have that "spirit of the past," but you could certainly not say it was
"soulless."
In comics, one could argue that the prohibition of "service shots" was
something that came in with the Code. The 40s and 50s were notorious
for their lurid content, which is one of the reasons the Code came
about. Even very talented people such as Will Eisner (if aliens forced
us to form champion comics teams to duel for world supremacy, I would
want Eisner and Neal Adams on ours) were known for service in his
works such as THE SPIRIT. Presumably he enjoyed doing it; I know
Gainax does. It is literally true that they sat around and watched EVA
saying, "Now there's a doujinshi right there." Part of their artistic
identity is that they're a bunch of degenerates.
--Carl "Lived in splendour; died in chaos" Horn
Rene-Gilles Deberdt
Charles Hagmaier wrote:
>
> ago! Tatsunoko (now called IG) is one of the slickest and hottest OAV
oops... sorry but... could somebody help me with this ???
i've heard in a French magazine that Tatsunoko changed its name to IG.
Indeed. But I've got two things to say.
1/ First, it seems to be IG Tatsunoko, not IG. Tatsunoko written in
katakana. The name exists since at least ten years, as I can recall !
2/ Well, it seems there are still anime produced under the name
"Tatsunoko" (written in kanji - Tatsu no ko Production).
The fact is, I also saw IG TATSUNOKO in Movies (Kaze no tairiku,
Patlabor 2) or OAV's (Video Girl Ai or Please save my Earth indeed),
whereas I saw TATSUNOKO PRO only in TV productions (well, the only
production I remember for now is "Flanders no inu", a 1992-remake from
a 20-year old dramatic series). It seems there are just now two
departments in the Tatsunoko activities.
Thanks for correcting me, if I am wrong.
PS: I do love older animation !! I own the whole HEIDI collection, I
watch the Galaxy Express TV series again and again (at least the 35
first episodes, since we got only those in French), etc... French Anime
lovers are nostalgic and they love watching such anime as Captain
Harlock, Captain Future and Candy Candy ^_^
--
Rene-Gilles Deberdt (rgde...@nordnet.fr)
Cyber Namida, Anime, manga, Asian pop-culture
http://www.namida.com
Donny CHAN
In article <4mql3q$3...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Liu) wrote:
]Gees, this thread will teach Carl Horn not to post award winners ever
]again. ^_^ Newbies should take notes on how to wage a polite argument.
]So far the only emotional participant is the Fool Eternal. He just won't
]lie down and be roadkill.
Can Horn or anyone else answer my question about:
According to Animage, who's the most popular _male_ seiyuu?
I know Animage doesn't give separate awards to the most popular female and
male seiyuu, but I still want to know which male seiyuu got the most number of
votes?
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| crs...@inforamp.net (Donny CHAN) |
| University of Toronto Mechanical Engineering 9T3+1 ERTW |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Don "Gamera" Chan's Top Three Anime Girls |
| |
| Name Anime Seiyuu |
| |
| Asagiri Yohko Genmu Senki LEDA Tsuru Hiromi |
| Ayukawa Madoka Kimagure ORANGE ROAD Tsuru Hiromi |
| Tokimatsuri Eve Mugen Chitai MEGAZONE 23 Miyasato Kumi |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960508...@bambam.magiccarpet.com>,
Ataru Moroboshi <at...@bambam.magiccarpet.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 7 May 1996, Anand Chelian wrote:
>> There is also Maison Ikkoku (which is being released by Viz, though
>> I would recommend against getting stuff from them, you are probably
>> better off getting the fansubs if you can find them).
>
>I already have 30 some episodes of MI fan subbed.
Out of 96 episodes total, all of which have been fansubbed.
>> My personal recommendations are: Wings of Honneamise,
>
>Saw the premiere of the dub at AnimEast '94. It's shallow philosophy left
>a VERY bad taste in my mouth.
I might be interested to hear what you thought was shallow about this film's
philosophy...
>> Gundam 0080,
>
>Haven't seen it. I'm not a huge mech fan, though I've heard some good
>things about this one.
One of the keys to this Gundam is that it does not focus on mecha as a major
lynch-pin of the plot, doubtless improving its pointfulness to no end. =)
>> and Key the Metal Idol.
>
>This is another one I was surprised to here so much praise about. What is
>this one about?
All I can say is that it seems to be "about" an android who is told by her
creator to make 30,000 friends in order to become human, and sets out to do
so on a path leading towards idol stardom. And of course there is _a_lot_
more to it than that...The entire atmosphere of this work _must_ be seen to be
believed.
Michael Liu
Charles Hagmaier (foole...@delphi.com) writes:
>
> Thanks for the endorsement, Mike. What exactly does that mean?
That you refuse to relent in your belief that modern animation is actually
better. It was a compliment. :-)
> Umm, Mike, I don't know if you were listening to FM radio much during the
> late 80's (the time where my musical sensibilities were formed, and I'll
> bet that a lot of the people listening had done so as well at the time)
> but the airwaves were filled to the brim with old music, old acts, old
> styles.
Eek! Generation gap within the same generation! Yes, The Who, and Boston
are modern. Don't tell me you weren't listening to The Eagles when you
were six or seven--or were you drooling? ^_^; When I say "old music," I
mean big band music and what came before.
My parents are probably old enough to be your parents' parents. ^_^;
> was that there was a distinct slip in animation quality from 1979 to about
> 1985, and that was because a new set of animation studios had sprung up,
> feeding the voracious demand for animation with occasionally sub-par
> material (Robotech's material comes from this period, and I'd say that
> Tatsunoko was the worst of this new bunch).
Uh, Tatsunoko was formed in the '60s. If you think they were bad in the
late '70s, you should've seen Sunrise in their pre-Gundam days. Tatsunoko
was and is one of the best studios around. Their spin-off company is now
called Production IG. Both exist as independent studios.
> You look at Please Save My Earth or
> Video Girl Ai and *dare* to tell me that this is inferior animation.
> Mike, sometimes I think you never noticed when the "high-end" anime
> market shifted to OAVs, especially when you go off on one of your
> strange "inferior animation" rants.
"High-end" anime also wound up a lot shorter. No, animation didn't really
improve in those OVAs; artwork did. Big difference there.
You have the courage to become a roadkill. I admire that. :-)
>>P.S. I should also add that older anime didn't cater specifically to young
>>people.
>
> Are you sure that's the case, or is it just that the studios have become
> better at judging their audience? You can't really tell me that Mach Go Go
> Go or Astroboy was aimed at an adult audience. Even the Seventies stuff
> is, by and large, clearly aimed at a sub-college audience.
Everything is still aimed at the same age group. However, there was no
premeditated aim taken at the groins of teenagers back in those days. It's
that type of pandering I find disgusting. People of all ages can enjoy
Capt. Harlock and Yamato. Try that with VGAi or Tenchi Muyo!.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
Elizabeth HL Horn (zi...@netcom.com) writes:
> I love Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby's stuff too, although much of the
> "spirit" must have been Stan Lee's writing as well. As I suggested in
> my earlier post, though, the "spirit" of Gainax's work is a
> particularistic one; it's the spirit of themselves (one does or does
> not have to like this approach). For that reason, their work may not
> have that "spirit of the past," but you could certainly not say it was
> "soulless."
Yes, Eva has a soul. I just find the show peculiar in the same way that
Braiger and Goshogun were. It's a deviation from the norm, but not enough
to be a breakthrough (hence my comments in many previous posts). Just like
you, there were and are people who flocked to the J-9 trilogy, but not
enough to be a true phenomenon. I had higher hopes for Gainax.
Maybe they should contact Tsubaraya and offer their help. A member of
Headgear wrote episodes of Ultraman Powered, maybe Gainax can help out with
Neos. ^_^
The "cute doggie crap" certainly has no soul, or has not a soul worth
redeeming, though.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Anand Chelian
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960508...@bambam.magiccarpet.com>,
Ataru Moroboshi <at...@bambam.magiccarpet.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 7 May 1996, Anand Chelian wrote:
>> and Key the Metal Idol.
>This is another one I was surprised to here so much praise about. What is
>this one about?
It is about innocence.
>*---Rev. Drew Webber--aka Ataru Morobosh...@bambam.magiccarpet.com--*
--
Anand Chelian
In article <4mql3q$3...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>The best analogy for old anime vs. new anime is, like I already stated, old
>American comics vs. new. But people seemed to have ignored that.
I think there is a serious difference. While the artwork in the old
American comics was fairly poor (in fact, often miserable), it was at
least a varied medium, with occasional attempts at new things. Modern
American comics have "better" artwork, but it has homogenized to an
extent that there is little difference between DC (proper), Marvel,
and Image, almost all being spandex angst. I really don't see that
the same thing is happening in anime (or at least not the anime I have
watched).
>Yes, old anime is cliche-ridden, but so are new ones. Anime has evolved
>little over those days, and devolved in areas such as animation. There is
>far less experimentation these days, and no one besides Gainax is making an
>effort at creating better entertainment.
I am curious as to what you find worse about modern animation
techniques? How are they inferior?
As to the cliche-ridden part, I must agree, but Star Wars was cliche
when it came out as well; I don't see many people attacking Star Wars
as being non-inventive. Besides, the old stories were cliche in their
time as well.
>Face it: most of you can't stand the sight of old anime for the same reason
>many of you can't tolerate the music your parents and grandparents
>listen--prejudice. (Of what kind and for what reason, I don't know.)
Well, there is music my parents listened to that I still listen to, it
is mostly classical music. There are things that can overcome their
origins to appeal to multiple generations. It looks like the old anime
wasn't far enough above it's origins to make it. Just because this is a
new generation, does not mean that they are wrong, uninnovative, or bad.
Just because the guard has been changed does not mean that the fort is
no longer guarded. (This time the analogy is music.)
The
>artwork in the old classics may be old (but anatomically more correct on
>the average), but the animation is certainly better. Mark said his friends
>are grateful for Ray Earth after Iczer One, but both are modern trash so
>the comparison means little. (I've watched anime for so long that Iczer
>One is recent.)
Having seen some Rose of Versailles, and some Harlock, I must dispute
the claim that the animation was more anatomically correct. From my
view point, it has been a long journey from the early manga to the
current anatomically correct movements and bodies in both anime and
manga (when they do try for anatomically correct). As for better
animation, I await a list of defects in the modern age.
>Old anime may not age well because what was innovative then is no longer so,
>but people have trouble seeing that modern offerings aren't much better.
>There's a world to be opened up there, and what Gainax has accomplished
>with Eva is no more than what everybody but Toei was trying back in the
>Golden Age.
Well, given your view on anime today, I'd say that "everybody but Toei"
didn't do such a good job of affecting the course of animation as you
would have wanted. It remains to be seen how effective Gainax will be.
I'd say that the only real differences between the majority of today's
anime and the old anime are the common cliches. What you see as cliche
others see as original, or don't mind, and what you see as original,
others see as cliche. I'd also say that while tripe remains tripe, and
there is more of it nowdays, the best now is far better than the best
before, and there is more of it, and it is coming out faster.
There is no drive in the industry left. Gainax is doing
>things with the right attitude, but they are simply restoring the old
>status quo--and they're the only ones doing so.
Well, at least someone is pushing the state of the art. I do think
that Gainax and whoever produced Key the Metal Idol are pushing the
state of the art (at least I have not seen any story that addresses
quite the same issues as Key in any media that I know of).
I am not sure that the frequency of good anime has gone down since the
"Golden Age." Looking back at the Golden Age, it is easy to point out
all the good anime, but you should also look at the amount of good anime
per year.
>Michael Liu
>ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
>P.S. I should also add that older anime didn't cater specifically to young
>people.
This is only a good thing, as I am not getting any younger. Maybe when
I feel gray, I will go back and watch Harlock in its entireity. =)
Ataru Moroboshi
On Thu, 9 May 1996, Anand Chelian wrote:
> >Uhhh.. what did I say in that message that makes you think I'm a clueless
> >newbie to anime? I was just bitching about how a lot of the newer anime
> >is crap.. that doesn't mean I haven't seen a lot of other anime that I DO
> >like.
>
> Sorry, didn't mean to convey that impression. I just meant to say that
> there is good stuff out there, even now. Among modern shows, I sorta
> like Slayers, Rayearth, and Fushigi Yuugi,
Fushigi Yuugi.. is this "The Wonder Play"? If so, I have seen one episode. I
didn't like it much until I was told what it was about, since I got it
taped off of Japanese TV...
> and I think I'll really like Evangelion.
I also have an episode of that taped off of Japanese TV. It deserves the
praise it gets. The openings nice, too...
> Besides, large breast size has always been a problem. Heck the US movie
> industry, before they sicced the censors on them, was a cesspool (not that
> it isn't now).
Yeah.. but it wasn't nearly as bad as it has been since around 1990.
> >If you like Gainax... <G>
>
> True, and if you like slow philosophical ramblings.. I'd be forced to
> plead guilty to all charges.
I liked his review of Otakon '95. "Otakon '95 was a surrealistic
hermitiage, a perfect bubble of otakudom suspended in an endless sea of
cow shit..." A beautiful, and accurate, description. He does work for Jiz,
though, so that's one point taken off...
> >Saw the premiere of the dub at AnimEast '94. It's shallow philosophy left
> >a VERY bad taste in my mouth.
>
> The dub does have a couple of points where it is different from the sub/
> original. Most notably in the religious ideas it tries to convey. I feel
> that the religious themes were seriously mishandled (unfortunately, those
> were the only things I came to see, not having understood them fully in the
> original).
That's good to hear, since those points were what bugged me about the
dub. Such a shame, too, since the dubbing actually wasn't THAT bad.. I'm
going to try and see a subbed version soon, so maybe that will change my
opinion of the movie.
*---Rev. Drew Webber--aka Ataru Morobosh...@bambam.magiccarpet.com--*
Peter Evans --V--
Anand Chelian wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960508...@bambam.magiccarpet.com>,
> Ataru Moroboshi <at...@bambam.magiccarpet.com> wrote:
> >On Tue, 7 May 1996, Anand Chelian wrote:
>
> >> and Key the Metal Idol.
>
> >This is another one I was surprised to here so much praise about. What is
> >this one about?
>
> It is about innocence.
But best of all, Iwao Junko did the voice of Key!! Yay!!!
--
----------------------------------------------------------
o Peter Evans \o/
/|\ ev...@NETural.com |
/ \ http://home.netural.com/~evans/anime.html / \
Shut up! All you care about is being
happy with Aya!
----------------------------------------------------------
Mayeen Alam
Dear Micheal,
In order to save time, I am responding to several of your posts
at once. Please bear with me.
>It has also occurred to me that in my enthusiasm to deflect and rebutt many >of
>the absurd ideas presented against my opinions my position on the various
>issues is not visibly labelled for mass consumption. It becomes apparent >that
>stating clearly my thoughts on Eva once and for all would be a brilliant idea.
I noticed below that you explained all about your fondness for the "Golden Age" (a term that is quite often ridiculed by philosophers, and sometimes even considered indicative of a personality disorder by psychologists... but this is an arguement in r.a.
a. not real life), but failed to explain in great detail what you saw in Eva (I don't mean in readiming sense, I mean in all sense).
>Most of the patrons on rec.arts.anime did not live in the Golden Age of >anime.
>Oh, they might have been alive then, but they were so consumed by things
>mundane and American that they had no lives whatsoever. The era was
>characterized by its vitality and originality. The buoyancy of the times was
>such that it left a general impression on the public, and many young adults
>today can recall such favourite shows as Mazinger, Gatchaman, and Yamato.
Having watched all three shows in question, I fail to see on what criterion you are judging them to be superior to Evangelion. I fail to see how they can be above even shows such as Sailor Moon, or Blue Seed.
Mazinga Z, translated as Tranzor Z and thereby cause of great distress to small town latch key kids forced to watch such tripe, hardly was groundbreaking in any sense of the word. The first anime of the Big robot genre was Tetsujin 28, having preceded Ma
zinga by around 6 years.
[Denver residents can find this show on the bottom rack of the anime movies section in Creative Video]
I hardly find any bit of animation technique to be worthy of even a honorable mention in animation hall of fame. For it's time, even Hanna Barbara had better techniques. Or maybe you like watching the ground move one way while the motorcycle (frozen exce
pt for sketchy speed marks around the tires) moves in a totally different direction. Perhaps you like the way many of the robots look like they are doing the Motown Sneak while walking about. Perhaps you like the oh so wonderful storylines (GAAAACK! would
adequetly summerize my reaction).
Hmmm... Gatchaman? When I heard that the English translations had taken a lot of the story out of this show, I thought that maybe we had all lost a wonderful story in the hands of greedy American producers. Seeing an episode or two in Japanese quickly go
t me over that notion. Sure there's more violence. Truth to tell, there was a lot of violence in a lot of the shows of that time. There isn't very much of a story however. It's a kiddified space opera in terms of plot even though some of the characters m
ight seem more adult. BTW Misato has more character in her little finger than the entire science ninja team.
Yamato, while being the best of the lot (and the one that I most watched because it was the only one I did not have to continuously wretch at), was a gimmick filled, overblown space opera that had little if anything in the way of innovation.
I admit I liked Galaxy Express 999, but that was mostly a pathos filled mood piece. Great for what it was, but not overall when compared to the likes of Fushigi Yuugi even.
I will also admit that I have never seen very much of Great Mazinga and it's demonic spawns: Getta Robo, and Grandizer... Having watched those silly little Manga Daikoshin collections [Denverites: Bottom shelf, TV anime section] I can say that neither Ma
zinga nor Gatchaman were origional at *all*. There are quite a few shows that had the same themes and similar storylines going on years before them. In fact there was hardly one idea in those shows not stolen from another anime or manga or live action sho
w.
As for Yamato... I'm not sure but there were quite a few long travel space operas at the time (I just don't know if theye were copy cats or if Yamato was "influenced" by them).
>Having a trio of that calibre back-to-back in the early seventies was a treat
>audience today is repeatedly denied. I deny not that the techniques >employed
>in animation and storytelling in those series were sometimes abysmal, and >many
>neophytes to the hobby wince at the sight of these relative dinosaurs.
I admit I am a neophyte compared to you (at least so it seems).
>But that was not the point--if they had any--of those classics.
Then what, pray tell was the point? Ground breaking? Not. Philosophy? Not even close. Am I missing something having watched them that you have not? What exactly?
>When I view something I watch for fresh ideas. Unlike Evangelion, the >shows in
>the Golden Age of anime often presented ideas for a genre that were >seminal.
>Furthermore, they not only caught the attention of the infant fandom, but >also
>the population in general. Can one imagine normal adults (i.e., one who is >not
>particularly interested in anime) rushing home to watch Eva? It happened >with
>Gatchaman. The staff of those series were striving for something bold and >new,
>whether it be animation, plot, story, or sex and violence. The astonishing
Perhaps you have become a bit too jaded to watch anime. How could there be adults particularily interested in anime when it was so scarce? Don't tell me it wasn't, all data points to the contrary (wish I could pull referances out of the hat though).
No matter how successful they were (or weren't) most staff of most anime series are still striving for such qualities.
>thing was, they succeeded on all fronts. Such success inevitably gave rise to
>copycat shows, but those shows tried to improve on the originals (hence
>"seminal") and were successes in their own right.
I have a joke that says (and I doubt I'm the first to say it): Origionality went out with the second monkey to fall out of the tree with a "thud" (Punch line being: Or was it the first [monkey]?). These shows were seminal to animation (Japanese animation
at that) and hardly anything else. And as the starters of current trends and genres in anime, they are hardly the most noble of progenitors to the current lineage.
>The band of originators and the skillful copycats were the Golden Age. Their
>influence was such that everyone in the broadcast range was affected.
Possible. But you can't escape that no mattar how sucky you are.
>This did not happen with Evangelion.
Says you... BTW isn't it a bit early to be passing verdict?
> Granted, one show does not make an era,
>and the shows that accompanied Eva did not have the power of the clones of >the
>Golden Age. (They were no more than cult series, IMO.)
Hmmm? Care to explain?
>What Eva reminded me
>most of was a competent copycat in the seventies. It is not my intent to
What Eva most reminded me of was an effective and seriouse lampooning of the genre. It shishkabobed it very effectively. I'm picturing Mazinga Z on a BBQ pit with a silver rod going through it's heart spinning lazily in the summer sun with tire treads ru
nning all over its body. But then that's just me.
>insult the show by calling it that. It shows much of my respect for the staff
>of the series because it is no small feat to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with
>Steel Jeeg, Raideen, or Daitan 3. Evangelion was a good series, but I will not
>demean it by making it out to be something much more than that.
Demean? Says you. I'm sorry, but isn't it a bit arrogant to assume that other people will just agree to a unfounded, vague, and contrary statement as the one above?
>It will take at least five series of Eva's class being simultaneously on the
>air to recreate the atmosphere of the Golden Age. The sophistication of
>Evangelion does not matter, for the impact of Getter Robo on the audience in
>the seventies is in some ways the same as the impact of Eva on the audience >in
>the nineties. What the anime industry truly needs is another show that is
>ground-breaking and attention-getting as those shows in the seventies. Like >it
>or not, the average person today will remember Sailor Moon, Slam Dunk and
>Dragonball much more vividly than they will Evangelion--if they remember >the
>name at all.
Strangely enough, this makes me picture old people moaning that most people nowadays remember junk like Mazinga over shows that more deserve recognition.
I doubt I will "forget" Evangelion. I would like you mention another show that is as clear and well formed a theses on the things that drive us to create works of art, and the motivations of the soul for the Ahab-like compulsions we all have in life for
what we do to each other.
>P.S. I missed my point again, haven't I?
I can't tell, it's hard to see it from here.
>> Try telling that to the people who think that these last couple
>> of years have been pretty near the golden age of Japanese animation
>> again.
>I think I am doing just that by posting on this newsgroup. I should also
>add that those people who think these years as near the Golden Age need to
>watch more anime.
Ummm... okay... How many thousands of titles should I watch?
>> Around this time (if I was more hot headed) I would be calling
>> someone a clueless twit.
>Humility is not required when dealing with me. :-)
Humility is required when dealing with anybody. Unfortunately, sometimes this is a deficiency on my part. I try to keep my failings in check (hey, I'm a ENTP -- extroverted intuitive thinking perceiving-- type it seems... It's a documented bug in the per
sonality system).
>At no point did I say GAINAX was not being creative with Evangelion. The
>main point I'm trying to make is that contrary to many opinions stated in
>this newsgroup, no new ideas were presented in Eva. The series is a
>creative giant robot story, but that alone does not distinguish from many
>others that have appeared over the years.
I would like to know which shows you think effectively broke down the wall between the creator and the viewer before to convey the kind of message it conveys using archetypal symbols as heavily as it does to create not only something that refers back to
themselves, but to the entire human race as well. A show that melds symbology into itself so well that several levels of story streams coexist with such harmony?
>The storytelling is also not the central thrust of the series, and no
>storytelling ever can or should be (it is by definition a background
>process). I do not mind psychobabble, but I find the points Eva trying to
>present laughable, somewhat like an old man listening to the meaning of
>life told by a teenager. (I don't even understand why I find them
>laughable, but I haven't figured myself out yet.)
Perhaps arrogance. Considering the fact that I myself have spent countless hours discussing philosophical issues with people three times my age, and have come away from some with great insight at times, and at times imparting it to the person I was talki
ng to, I hardly think age is a good factor in respect to understanding the fundementals of being.
Now on the point of emotional control, responsibility, and goal orientation in emotional aspects. That comes with experience and proper understanding of what's at stake. That is often only found with time... Conversely some never gain it. While it takes
age to learn tha fallacy and value of idealism, complex ideals are hardly out of reach to a teenager.
I do admit that I was a bit precocious, and always had a hard time relating to people of my own age because of this (I had more friends over 25 than under during my teenage years), but I still believe most people sell teenagers short in underestimating t
heir potentials.
>There was no point to Eva, but it was a good series.
Perhaps you should see it again (maybe even do a little research on the obvious symbols potrayed in the show).
>P.S. If you think you're talking to someone deranged, it's probably not
>your fault.
I don't.
Carl Horn wrote:
>>Default? It was up against GUNDAM WING, RAYEARTH, MACROSS 7,
>>SLAYERS, and FUSHIGI YUUGI, none of which suck, all of which have
>>fan followings in both countries, and all of which made the top ten.
[stuff]
>All competent shows do something to their audience, and Eva is the
>only one that did this year.
Tell that to the miriad rabid fans these shows have generated.
>In short, nothing gave Evangelion solid competition. When no tigers
>are in the mountains, monkeys rule.
I rather think this accurately describes your Golden Age.
>>It seems clear by the end that EVANGELION is not meant to be a
>>homage to anything.
>Oh, it's clear from the beginning. I recall people on both sides of
>the Pacific drawing similarities between Eva and Ultraman when the
>series debuted. I was just saying that Eva in no way resembled
>Ultraman.
Perhaps it's not clear to you that it's not even a homage to the shows it does draw elements from. In many ways, it's the Anti-Giant Robot
>>It's not clear to me what relationship you are positing between
>>EVANGELION and MAZINGER Z or GATCHAMAN.
>There is no relationship between them save the tenuous but certain
>ancestral link between Eva and Maz.
a link not really worth much IMHO.
>Mazinger Z and Gatchaman were ground-breaking and sense-shattering
>series in the years they came out. Eva was neither of those things
>but it did bring storytelling techniques from other media into anime,
>which is its true contribution to the craft.
You have definitely missed the forest for the trees...
>>The point I'm trying to make is that the fans voted for an
>>unconventional show when they had plenty of more conventional ones
>>to choose from, including things with the GUNDAM and MACROSS names.
>Evangelion is more mature than it is unconventional. I think of it
>as nothing more than a well-executed giant robot story. The violence
>was average and the much talked-about bedroom scene generated no more
>excitement than the one in Braiger 15 years ago (such a scene hardly
>constitutes a true achievement in any case).
I was rather shocked by those immature enough to be shocked by this. BTW, look again it's not a Giant Robot story ^_^
>GAINAX brought much-needed skills and techniques to anime through
>Eva, but they did not give us new ideas. While they may have done a
>different giant robot series, one of the chief characteristics of
>giant robot series before the Gundam takeover was such a variation in
>each and every series. Eva deviated no more from the Mazinger
>formula than Goshogun or Godmars.
Perhaps one of these days I will take the time to write a comprehensive bit on what *I* saw in the series... I will try to soon.
-M.
("The computer is drunk again" "Dammit! How many time did I tell you to keep an eye on that thing?!")
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <4mql3q$3...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>Yes, old anime is cliche-ridden, but so are new ones. Anime has evolved
>little over those days, and devolved in areas such as animation. There is
>far less experimentation these days, and no one besides Gainax is making an
>effort at creating better entertainment.
I still haven't heard any definitive proof from you of this "devolution" in
animation quality. Nor have I heard proof to the effect that noone besides
Gainax is attempting to make better entertainment. What criteria are you
using for "better" and where _specifically_ is the current crop of material
falling short?
>Face it: most of you can't stand the sight of old anime for the same reason
>many of you can't tolerate the music your parents and grandparents
>listen--prejudice. (Of what kind and for what reason, I don't know.) The
I need face no such thing. =) When I came to anime, I came without the
foggiest clue what was available (other than fading memories of Robotech and
the like). I try to judge titles both on absolute pointfulness and relative
merit with respect to other offerings. Much of my effort since discovering
anime has been in trying to "catch up" on the works I missed: hence attempts
at trying to dredge up the older titles. Technically, the animation wasn't
as good as it is today, and the storytelling technique employed was less
persuasive. I have no a priori reason to believe that old stuff should be any
worse than current stuff.
>artwork in the old classics may be old (but anatomically more correct on
>the average), but the animation is certainly better. Mark said his friends
>are grateful for Ray Earth after Iczer One, but both are modern trash so
>the comparison means little. (I've watched anime for so long that Iczer
>One is recent.)
I might suggest that dismissing any anime title out of hand as "trash" is not
the best way to make others receptive to your viewpoint. =) I admire Rayearth,
especially the second series, for character design, technical art quality
(good for a TV series, though not superb), characterization, comedy, and
atmosphere, among other things. Rayearth also has several problems, such as
passages of juvenility that break up the focus of the audience on the plot
or extremely repetitive presentation of the cameraderie of the Magic Knights.
While I don't expect everyone to feel the same affinity with the storyline, I
rather doubt most would call it "trash".
>Old anime may not age well because what was innovative then is no longer so,
>but people have trouble seeing that modern offerings aren't much better.
>There's a world to be opened up there, and what Gainax has accomplished
>with Eva is no more than what everybody but Toei was trying back in the
>Golden Age. There is no drive in the industry left. Gainax is doing
>things with the right attitude, but they are simply restoring the old
>status quo--and they're the only ones doing so.
What about this: you agree to lament the lack of impetus in the current
industry and some of us will agree to lament the deficiencies in presentation
in the old industry? =) Meanwhile, I'll be saving up for the Patlabor Perfect
Works and the Key the Metal Idol discs.
>P.S. I should also add that older anime didn't cater specifically to young
>people.
Neither does modern anime.
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>Eek! Generation gap within the same generation! Yes, The Who, and Boston
>are modern. Don't tell me you weren't listening to The Eagles when you
>were six or seven--or were you drooling? ^_^; When I say "old music," I
>mean big band music and what came before.
used to listen to the easy-listening stations (big band, and Neil
Diamondish stuff) as I went to sleep right up through Junior High.
But admittedly I was a strange child.
>My parents are probably old enough to be your parents' parents. ^_^;
for wide "generation gaps", if you believe in such lock-step group
designations.
>That you refuse to relent in your belief that modern animation is actually
>better. It was a compliment. :-)
>Uh, Tatsunoko was formed in the '60s. If you think they were bad in the
>late '70s, you should've seen Sunrise in their pre-Gundam days. Tatsunoko
>was and is one of the best studios around. Their spin-off company is now
>called Production IG. Both exist as independent studios.
the connective tissue between all those abominably animated "Superdimensional"
mecha shows of the mid-80s? Anyways, as I understand it, a lot of second-
generation animators were working on those crummily animated (with brief
bursts of kinematic brilliance) tv series. They went on to staff a lot of
the OAV revolution.
>"High-end" anime also wound up a lot shorter. No, animation didn't really
>improve in those OVAs; artwork did. Big difference there.
defence of the old series: that the animation is limited, but the artwork
is correspondingly detailed. Not claiming you're wrong, just pointing out
that the other old fogies like to argue the opposite.
In defense of shows like Video Girl Ai, I would hold that they managed to
find and maintain an exquisite balance between delicate artwork and deftly
controlled, emotive animation. One of the most impressive facets of that
particular show, for me, was it's stunning sense of stillness: the directors
had a fine sense of when motion was necessary, and when it would have been
detrimental to the mood.
>Everything is still aimed at the same age group. However, there was no
>premeditated aim taken at the groins of teenagers back in those days. It's
>that type of pandering I find disgusting. People of all ages can enjoy
>Capt. Harlock and Yamato. Try that with VGAi or Tenchi Muyo!.
problem with the whole "fan service" thing is that it might not be considered
suitable for the tots by hyperprotective parents. Especially in this
society, pervasive delayed adolescence means that pandering to the teenyboppers
works at a lot of age levels.
>You have the courage to become a roadkill. I admire that. :-)
sentiment. I adore that. If we were all Conty, it'd be a damn
boring newsgroup.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs Department of Mutual Admiration
Charles Hagmaier
Anand Chelian <ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>I think there is a serious difference. While the artwork in the old
>American comics was fairly poor (in fact, often miserable), it was at
>least a varied medium, with occasional attempts at new things. Modern
>American comics have "better" artwork, but it has homogenized to an
>extent that there is little difference between DC (proper), Marvel,
>and Image, almost all being spandex angst. I really don't see that
>the same thing is happening in anime (or at least not the anime I have
>watched).
of reasoning is that I'm really not very familiar with the material.
However, as I remember my McCloud, the real genius of Kirby et al lies
not in the artwork or story, but rather in the structural elements.
Kirby was inovative in his use of more cinematic, and more expressionistic
(comparative to his predecessors) panel design and layout. When people
talk about flashier "Image" type comics, the complaints lie in their
weak grasp of strong structural grammar. Everyone should read McCloud.
He's invaluable.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
(Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics, if you missed all the hints...)
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>The "cute doggie crap" certainly has no soul, or has not a soul worth
>redeeming, though.
have their own widdle theology, with it's own rules. Part of the
problem may be evangelical incompatability.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs Department of Animated Jihad
Alex Lau
In article <4mts8q$h...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
Anand Chelian <ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>In article <4mql3q$3...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
>Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
>>The best analogy for old anime vs. new anime is, like I already stated, old
>>American comics vs. new. But people seemed to have ignored that.
>
>I think there is a serious difference. While the artwork in the old
>American comics was fairly poor (in fact, often miserable), it was at
>least a varied medium, with occasional attempts at new things. Modern
>American comics have "better" artwork, but it has homogenized to an
>extent that there is little difference between DC (proper), Marvel,
>and Image, almost all being spandex angst. I really don't see that
>the same thing is happening in anime (or at least not the anime I have
>watched).
Well, I got out of comics in the late eighties, but there was a serious
resurgence in the mid-eighties where the storytelling got *much* better
(especially compared to the campy seventies) and the artwork was starting
to catch on, too. I think a lot of those books (Alan Moore's The
Watchmen, for example) compare very favorably to the Kirby/Lee "golden
age" era. I don't think that analogy holds up to that kind of scrutiny.
--
--- Alex "Superbrain just blew a fuse." Lau
M.R. Opel
Something that might be interesting for those following this thread:
Newtype (5/96) has the video sales figures for February, and Evangelion
vol. 1 was the top selling VHS tape and laser disc when it came out.
Not the #1 _anime_ video, but the #1 video of any kind!
This would seem to indicate (among other things) that Eva has a
substantial following in the adult population: middle school students
simply cannot afford to buy Y5800 LDs.
-Matt Opel email: mro9...@uconnvm.uconn.edu
UCJAS!: http://www.ucc.uconn.edu/~adr93001/ucjas.html
"All life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which there
is no difference betwixt those born of real things and those born of
inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one above the other."
-H. P. Lovecraft
Michael Liu
Charles Hagmaier (foole...@delphi.com) writes:
>
> used to listen to the easy-listening stations (big band, and Neil
> Diamondish stuff) as I went to sleep right up through Junior High.
> But admittedly I was a strange child.
You too!? I think we may be more alike than we'd like. :-)
> Maybe, maybe not. Hagmaiers tend to reproduce at age 30, exactly. Makes
> for wide "generation gaps", if you believe in such lock-step group
> designations.
I don't, but it was the best term for the concept I could think of. My
particular family branch reproduces slowly. My grandparents came from the
19th century, yet I'm only 25.
> the connective tissue between all those abominably animated "Superdimensional"
> mecha shows of the mid-80s?
Until recently I didn't pay much attention to various creators and studios
either, unless their names are often in my face. I'm not sure where Studio
Nue is now, but they worked on LoGH.
Tatsunoko split into Tatsunoko and Tatsunoko IG, then IG went independent
and named itself Production IG.
> You are aware that this argument is an exact inversion of the usual fannish
> defence of the old series: that the animation is limited, but the artwork
> is correspondingly detailed. Not claiming you're wrong, just pointing out
> that the other old fogies like to argue the opposite.
Those "old" series referred to by other fogies are likely middle-aged,
which means series from early-to-mid '80s. Anime art tended to be more
detailed then. Drawings have become simpler again partially due to
subcontracting work to out-of-country studios. '70s artwork was pretty
simple, but stylistically different from today's.
> Yes, but that's pandering to a *higher* audience, not a lower one. The
> problem with the whole "fan service" thing is that it might not be considered
> suitable for the tots by hyperprotective parents.
Not sure if that's a real issue in Asia.
> If we were all Conty, it'd be a damn boring newsgroup.
Hmmm...
Michael Liu
Michael Liu
Anand Chelian (ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu) writes:
>
> I am curious as to what you find worse about modern animation
> techniques? How are they inferior?
Hmmm...I overstated somewhat (now that I think about it). Most of today's
animation is at the level of yesteryear, but without the amount of
experimentation the old works had (especially Tatsunoko's). It has become
complacent, and to me complacency is something one enjoys briefly, not for a
decade or more. The standard has also gotten lower. What was yesterday's
TV anime standard becomes today's OVA standard (look at Zeta Gundam and
Maison Ikkoku then look at today's OVA offerings). 25-year old series like
Gatchaman (OK, 24) are often drawn with more care than today's series
(e.g., V Gundam).
The inferiority comes from both a lowering of quality standards and a lack
of spirit.
> As to the cliche-ridden part, I must agree, but Star Wars was cliche
> when it came out as well; I don't see many people attacking Star Wars
> as being non-inventive. Besides, the old stories were cliche in their
> time as well.
I don't mind cliched works at all, and I don't think I've attacked works
for being cliched--but for their being unoriginal. (Walking a fine line
here.) Well-presented cliches can be immensely enjoyable, like your
example of Star Wars. Evangelion's various battles with Angels are
essentially recycles of old, innovative battles seen in giant robot and
giant hero (live action) shows, but they're damned fun!
> It looks like the old anime
> wasn't far enough above it's origins to make it. Just because this is a
> new generation, does not mean that they are wrong, uninnovative, or bad.
Well, the current generation needs a kick in the pants. ^_^; Old anime
does make it far, but many here don't have access to it. Series from both
'70s and '80s are being released on LDs in droves. I seriously doubt it
would be the case if there's not a market for them.
> Having seen some Rose of Versailles, and some Harlock, I must dispute
> the claim that the animation was more anatomically correct.
I did say on average. Matsumoto is well-known for his conscious or
unconscious fixation on characters with Twiggy-like figures. :-) And the
shojo genre has never been a champion of correct figure forms.
> Well, given your view on anime today, I'd say that "everybody but Toei"
> didn't do such a good job of affecting the course of animation as you
> would have wanted. It remains to be seen how effective Gainax will be.
Please do not forget the rise of Sunrise and Bandai and their collective
choke on the industry. Serious progress stalled ever since. Toei can be
forgiven for their non-aggressive attitude because they're so big, nobody
in Japan presents a serious competition.
> I'd say that the only real differences between the majority of today's
> anime and the old anime are the common cliches. What you see as cliche
> others see as original, or don't mind, and what you see as original,
> others see as cliche.
What I see as original was original in its time. Evangelion is "inferior"
to Mazinger Z and Gatchaman in the sense it did not provide as much
stimulation to people and the industry as those series did. (I should add
that both were eye-popping in the visual sense in those days.) I do
not disagree that different times call for different vanguards, but I bemoan
the lack of people who are willing to take charge and the quality of work
that does end up being forefront.
> Well, at least someone is pushing the state of the art. I do think
> that Gainax and whoever produced Key the Metal Idol are pushing the
> state of the art (at least I have not seen any story that addresses
> quite the same issues as Key in any media that I know of).
Key is not bad (though not in animation--it's damn cheap), but it's a
direct-to-video release (i.e., not intended for the majority of people).
I'd like something far more influetial and omnipresent. Surely Sailor
Moon, Slam Dunk and DBZ aren't it.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
Mayeen Alam (ma...@netcom.com) writes:
>
> In order to save time, I am responding to several of your posts
> at once. Please bear with me.
That's fine. The fact that you did not make a common spelling mistake in
the above sentence means your opinions warrant a reading on the Internet.
^_^
> but failed to explain in great detail what you saw in Eva
I adopted the term "Golden Age" from someone else's post. I figured if
there was a Golden Age, then it would be the time period I described. If
I were to describe that period loosely, it would be "the period in my life
when I had a fabulous time." :-)
I didn't really describe win detail what I saw in Eva because I thought
people would understand the references I made when discussing older shows.
Anyway, Eva was a curious mixture of the following:
1) Cliches of fighting giant monsters from both anime and SFX. It did not
explicitly copy what came before, but all the basic ideas were employed.
2) Personalities born of teenager-centred anime made popular in '80s, whose
development come about by having a character flip-out.
3) Personal problems commonly heard from, hmm, "People with Problems," that
I could not in any way identify with. Eva made me wonder once again
whether I see the world the others see it, or do I live on Earth and they
on the Moon.
4) Overload of biblical symbols that somehow made it ludicrous in my eyes.
Symbols should be used sparingly, IMO, and not as a dump. It seems to me
that the creator had just learned about such things (like Gainax just
learned about copyright) and is having an exercise.
5) An influx of storytelling techniques never utitlized in anime in the
past.
Eva presented the above points very well, though, and that's what made it
enjoyable to me (I don't think I ever dissed the show; just took it down a
notch or two.)
> I hardly find any bit of animation technique to be worthy of even a honorable mention in animation hall of fame. For it's time, even Hanna Barbara had better techniques. Or maybe you like watching the ground move one way while the motorcycle (frozen exce
> pt for sketchy speed marks around the tires) moves in a totally different direction. Perhaps you like the way many of the robots look like they are doing the Motown Sneak while walking about. Perhaps you like the oh so wonderful storylines (GAAAACK! would
> adequetly summerize my reaction).
That's artwork; not animation. Today's production is about as jerky as
productions in the past.
> BTW Misato has more character in her little finger than the entire science ninja team.
Misato's a child, and one too complicated and made-up to be real. It's
been my experience that people are closer in personality (well, as close as
they can get) to Gatchaman than anybody in Eva. (Well, Shinji's father and
Shinji are damned realistic.)
Note: Shinji's a prototypical otaku. He's a lot like me when I was a kid
(except I wasn't a wimp). Many aspects of Shinji's father reminds me bits
of myself today. I think the creators really drew on themselves for these
two.
> I will also admit that I have never seen very much of Great Mazinga and it's demonic spawns: Getta Robo, and Grandizer... Having watched those silly little Manga Daikoshin collections [Denverites: Bottom shelf, TV anime section] I can say that neither Ma
> zinga nor Gatchaman were origional at *all*. There are quite a few shows that had the same themes and similar storylines going on years before them. In fact there was hardly one idea in those shows not stolen from another anime or manga or live action sho
> w.
True. But those anime shows were the ones that introduced cliches into
anime. Eva's core, the "psychobabble", is not a real contribution to the
industry because that is the heart of the show in the sense that's the
difference between Eva and the others. It's what MAKES Eva, like the way
Mazinger Z the robot made Mazinger Z (and all its plot formulas were up for
grabs). Goshogun distinguished itself with its humour, but that's not a
real contribution to studios in general.
>Then what, pray tell was the point? Ground breaking? Not. Philosophy? Not even close. Am I missing something having watched them that you have not? What exactly?
The pioneering spirit and anime ground-breaking. Eva had neither. Gainax
had the attitude but not the spirit. It's like going to war with bloodlust
but not a desire to save people. You gotta have both to be whole. That's
why I called Eva something like a clone show from the '70s. Those guys had
pioneering spirit but no bloodlust. Eva's out for blood only.
>Perhaps you have become a bit too jaded to watch anime. How could there be adults particularily interested in anime when it was so scarce? Don't tell me it wasn't, all data points to the contrary (wish I could pull referances out of the hat though).
Because Japan's anime was better than their live-action shows. ^_^;
> I have a joke that says (and I doubt I'm the first to say it): Origionality went out with the second monkey to fall out of the tree with a "thud" (Punch line being: Or was it the first [monkey]?). These shows were seminal to animation (Japanese animation
> at that) and hardly anything else. And as the starters of current trends and genres in anime, they are hardly the most noble of progenitors to the current lineage.
I think I did admit that in another post. It's the amount of creative
shuffling that counts.
> Says you... BTW isn't it a bit early to be passing verdict?
I'm gifted with a certain prescience when it comes to giant robots. ^_^
> Hmmm? Care to explain?
The other shows on the air (e.g. Fushigi Yuugi) have a small (but maybe
strong) following, but not a general following like DBZ. Eva is a cult
(i.e., small but devout) show as well. I'd like to see something that
makes far more people take note.
> What Eva most reminded me of was an effective and seriouse lampooning of the genre. It shishkabobed it very effectively. I'm picturing Mazinga Z on a BBQ pit with a silver rod going through it's heart spinning lazily in the summer sun with tire treads ru
> nning all over its body. But then that's just me.
No, Eva lampooned nothing. It's your perception. :-) People often look
at Japan's live-action shows or anime like Mazinger and decide it's camp.
They are decidedly not. They were made seriously. Gainax understands
that. North Americans either can't cross the cultural gap or just can't
take things too seriously.
We need to nuke this continent for personal development. ^_^
>Demean? Says you. I'm sorry, but isn't it a bit arrogant to assume that other people will just agree to a unfounded, vague, and contrary statement as the one above?
It's a self-deprecating joke. Shows I lavishly praise have a tendency to
be seen as trash on r.a.a.. Eva does not deserve such treatment.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
Anand Chelian (ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu) writes:
>
> I think there is a serious difference. While the artwork in the old
> American comics was fairly poor (in fact, often miserable), it was at
> least a varied medium, with occasional attempts at new things. Modern
> American comics have "better" artwork, but it has homogenized to an
> extent that there is little difference between DC (proper), Marvel,
> and Image, almost all being spandex angst. I really don't see that
> the same thing is happening in anime (or at least not the anime I have
> watched).
Anime chara design and plot development are both being homogenized to an
extent that is close to being a crisis. It's still much more varied than
American comics, but it's less varied than manga (not that it was ever
close to its variety, but it's now farther away). It's this parallel
devolution I'm referring to.
Actuallyl, American comics now have worse artwork in general; the artists
are woefully ignorant of (or just plain ignoring) human anatomy. Nobody
draws like Neal Adams any more save Alex Ross.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>Hmmm...I overstated somewhat (now that I think about it). Most of today's
>animation is at the level of yesteryear, but without the amount of
>experimentation the old works had (especially Tatsunoko's). It has become
>complacent, and to me complacency is something one enjoys briefly, not for a
>decade or more. The standard has also gotten lower. What was yesterday's
>TV anime standard becomes today's OVA standard (look at Zeta Gundam and
>Maison Ikkoku then look at today's OVA offerings). 25-year old series like
>Gatchaman (OK, 24) are often drawn with more care than today's series
>(e.g., V Gundam).
as Zeta Gundam and Maison Ikkoku. Maison Ikkoku and Zeta Gundam were
unusually well-animated TV series for their time. In fact, there were
shows in the early '90s with equal (or superior) animation and drawing
quality. Miracle Girls, for instance, compares well with Maison Ikkoku.
What were the OAVs running in 1985, when Zeta was running? Dallos?
Cosmo Police Justy? Megazone 23 had come out the year before, and it
was clearly inferior in artwork to Zeta, and breaking even at best in
animation quality.
Much the same problem can be found when talking about Seventies anime:
the high-quality anime remains, while the dross moulders in the collections
of the more compulsive otaku.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs Department of Dissimilar Citrus Analysis
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>I don't, but it was the best term for the concept I could think of. My
>particular family branch reproduces slowly. My grandparents came from the
>19th century, yet I'm only 25.
must have had a child in their late forties...
>Those "old" series referred to by other fogies are likely middle-aged,
>which means series from early-to-mid '80s. Anime art tended to be more
>detailed then. Drawings have become simpler again partially due to
>subcontracting work to out-of-country studios. '70s artwork was pretty
>simple, but stylistically different from today's.
run.
>Not sure if that's a real issue in Asia.
been listening to, and the "cleaned up" nature of the TV El Hazard
as opposed to the OAV version, and I'm thinking that we're seeing the
influence of those dreaded mothers' groups.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs Department of Departments
Geoffrey Scott
Charles Hagmaier (foole...@delphi.com) wrote:
: Anand Chelian <ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
:
: >I think there is a serious difference. While the artwork in the old
: >American comics was fairly poor (in fact, often miserable), it was at
: >least a varied medium, with occasional attempts at new things. Modern
: >American comics have "better" artwork, but it has homogenized to an
: >extent that there is little difference between DC (proper), Marvel,
: >and Image, almost all being spandex angst. I really don't see that
: >the same thing is happening in anime (or at least not the anime I have
: >watched).
: Part of the reason that I haven't attacked Mike's "old comics" line
: of reasoning is that I'm really not very familiar with the material.
: However, as I remember my McCloud, the real genius of Kirby et al lies
: not in the artwork or story, but rather in the structural elements.
: Kirby was inovative in his use of more cinematic, and more expressionistic
: (comparative to his predecessors) panel design and layout. When people
: talk about flashier "Image" type comics, the complaints lie in their
: weak grasp of strong structural grammar. Everyone should read McCloud.
: He's invaluable.
"Everybody who reads comic books knows that the Kirby Silver Surfer was
the only real Silver Surfer!"
(sorry, couldn't resist...just saw Crimson Tide on Showtime)
Geo
Ryo-oh-ki
Charles Hagmaier <foole...@delphi.com> wrote:
:
:It might be more useful to compare the OAVs being produced at the same time
:as Zeta Gundam and Maison Ikkoku. Maison Ikkoku and Zeta Gundam were
:unusually well-animated TV series for their time. In fact, there were
:shows in the early '90s with equal (or superior) animation and drawing
:quality. Miracle Girls, for instance, compares well with Maison Ikkoku.
:What were the OAVs running in 1985, when Zeta was running? Dallos?
Dallos was 1984. Wasn't much in OVAs back then.
:Cosmo Police Justy? Megazone 23 had come out the year before, and it
:was clearly inferior in artwork to Zeta, and breaking even at best in
:animation quality.
Megazone 23 actually came out in 1985. OVAs of that time included
Area 88, Iczer-1, Dirty Pair: Affair of Nolandia, and other lesser
know titles.
:Much the same problem can be found when talking about Seventies anime:
:the high-quality anime remains, while the dross moulders in the collections
:of the more compulsive otaku.
So it's not '70s anime --- I miss "What's Michael"!
___/^_^\___ Eugene Lee Ryo-oh-ki Muyo! Tenchi
zan...@netcom.com The Memory of Trees
Geoffrey Scott
M.R. Opel (MRO9...@UConnVM.UConn.Edu) wrote:
: Something that might be interesting for those following this thread:
: Newtype (5/96) has the video sales figures for February, and Evangelion
: vol. 1 was the top selling VHS tape and laser disc when it came out.
: Not the #1 _anime_ video, but the #1 video of any kind!
: This would seem to indicate (among other things) that Eva has a
: substantial following in the adult population: middle school students
: simply cannot afford to buy Y5800 LDs.
This is not neccessarily true. Not neccessarily untrue either, but, in the
US, Disney cartoons and other kids' films and cartoons frequently top the
video sales charts, because kids like to see the same show/movie over
and over again, and parents are happy to oblige to shut them up, so they
buy lots of copies of "Alladin". What really tracks what movies are
popular throughout the whole population are the rental figures. Most
adults, other than movie buffs with LD players and their own little THX
systems in their living rooms, rent movies much more often than they buy
them. The only adult-oriented movies that really sell exceeding well
are instant cult classics (such as Pulp Fiction, X-Files tapes), when priced
for sell through, and soft-porn (Playboy, etc.) Conventional movies
don't do as well in the sales market as in the rental market, typically.
Geo
Michael Liu
There are a few points that I may not have made clear in my quickie replies
to various counter-arguments in this thread:
1) Some referred to the rich symbolism and character analysis in later
episodes of Evangelion as its strength. I think the portion some other
people referred to as "psychobabble" is childish and ludicrous; but that is
neither here nor there. That portion, as I've pointed out in another
follow-up, is the core of the series. To say that it can be a direct
contribution to anime is like saying my personality directly enriches
rec.arts.anime. One can learn from another's actions and works, but one
cannot expand on--only copy--the particular set of ideas expressed at the end
of Eva (the themes may be recycled and expandded, however). Other studios may
re-learn to throw themselves into their work like Gainax or learn to use overt
symbolism and certain storytelling techniques, but they will not rehash the
biblical references in the same way (if they've got dignity). So, to discuss
those references and ideas in Eva in the same breath as Eva's contribution to
anime in general is bizarre. Those ideas are the distinguishing characteristics
of Eva. Analyze them to death if you wish--God knows this group needs some
intelligent posts. I have nothing against the "character" of Eva. I may
dislike it, but it has nothing to do with my opinion of its standing in the
pantheon of giant robots. It's not what Eva offered to viewers; it's what it
offered in ideas and techniques others in the industry can use to advance the
medium (or the giant robot genre). Please do not mix what Eva offered in terms
of food for thought (i.e., artistic achievement) with what it innovated (i.e.,
nothing, actually, but it introduced a lot of techniques to anime).
Some may think that the introduction of common techniques from other media is
not much of a contribution. Many anime creators today no longer explore the
other media, however, and anime becomes their sole source of new materials. It
is one of the causes in the stagnation of the medium. If other studios learn
to abandon themselves in their production, then Gainax will have succeeded in
restoring the "status quo" of the past. The majority of new anime every year
in both past and present are undeniably "get-bys"--works to appease demand and
deadline, but I find there are less acting souls (there may just be as many
willing souls today as yesterday) who will advance the medium with each
succeeding piece of work. Tatsunoko dabbled in mixing anime with live-action
and psychedelic effects in every series they put out in the early '70s. Where
is that spirit of experimentation today with all the high-tech gadgetry? The
special effects employed in today's works are either commonplace or lack
originality (e.g., everybody's using CG). Some people may recall how cool
Sosai X appeared in the original Gatchaman back in '72. The Sosai X in the
1994 remake, however, lacked the same visual punch in this day and age.
I sometimes value good works with potential more than a slam-bang knockout that
no one else may repeat as effectively, and this is the reason I rate Evagelion
as a good series, but not greater.
NOTE: Evangelion may be a great artistic contribution to anime, but that only
serves to increase the respect others (i.e., non-anime viewers) may have for
the perceived medium for children.
2) Yes, Evangelion is a (piloted) giant robot show. It's the first pure-bred
one in six years, actually. The requirements for being a giant robot show are
simple and Eva has unique robots controlled by select pilots to face an
unknown alien threat. There are a few more characteristics than that, but
they escape me at the moment. There's nothing wrong with a label if it
grants plenty of room for expansion.
NOTE: there was Iron Man no.28 FX in 1992, which is the reason I added the word
"piloted" before "giant robot."
3) The type of fan-service mentioned repeatedly in Eva (but often not
delivered) is one of the reasons anime is not regarded as respectable a hobby
as, say, tennis. Many of us do not care if there is no nudity or cheesecake in
any anime for an entire decade, and thinking that all fans want to be pandered
in such manner likely alienates more viewers than gains.
4) No, it is not necessary to view thousands of titles of anime to understand
it in its time-space continuum. One only needs to see the major works of each
genre--sometimes not in entirety but enough to understand the gist--and
reference books will do the rest. Do watch plenty of SFX and read lots of
manga, however, because those two media and anime are inseparable.
5) I'm not an arrogant person, even though my posts may convey another
impression. I've never talked like a child and find many adults foolish
regardless of their age. It's my character. Having been around many people
who are much older or are more eccentric and intelligent than I am taught me
more than I know. I laugh at Eva's ideas because I've been through some of
them as a teenager, and find them funny when I look back upon them. Exactly
why I laugh? I don't really know.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
Mark L. Neidengard (mnei...@ugcs.caltech.edu) writes:
>
> I still haven't heard any definitive proof from you of this "devolution" in
> animation quality. Nor have I heard proof to the effect that noone besides
> Gainax is attempting to make better entertainment. What criteria are you
> using for "better" and where _specifically_ is the current crop of material
> falling short?
I think I answered this question in another post. If not, then this thread
will end yet. :-)
> What about this: you agree to lament the lack of impetus in the current
> industry and some of us will agree to lament the deficiencies in presentation
> in the old industry? =) Meanwhile, I'll be saving up for the Patlabor Perfect
> Works and the Key the Metal Idol discs.
Those aren't bad. I don't think I've ever dissed Patlabor or Key. To me,
lack of presentation does not matter if the content is there. Your
argument seems to mean that if a teacher is bad, the material taught is
less relevant. I say the content stands on its own and whether it's well
presented only affects the learning of the students. The old stuff
introduced ideas; the new stuff does not.
> Neither does modern anime.
Name one old anime that makes a grab at teenagers' collective crotch.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
Charles Hagmaier (foole...@delphi.com) writes:
>
> It might not be worthy of grace in your sect, but the kawaii people
> have their own widdle theology, with it's own rules. Part of the
> problem may be evangelical incompatability.
Cute.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
Charles Hagmaier (foole...@delphi.com) writes:
>
> unusually well-animated TV series for their time. In fact, there were
> shows in the early '90s with equal (or superior) animation and drawing
> quality. Miracle Girls, for instance, compares well with Maison Ikkoku.
I was arguing from the point of view that a direct-to-video release should
have a higher quality than TV release. Dallos came out earlier than 1985,
and I hear it was well-done for its time. Even late '80s offerings like
Ryger sometimes look better than Sunrise's Dirty Pair Flash. I think the
average quality of OVA today has become steadily lower in order to break
even. The animation in Key the Metal Idol is sometimes less than
Gatchaman's.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960509...@bambam.magiccarpet.com>,
Ataru Moroboshi <at...@bambam.magiccarpet.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 9 May 1996, Anand Chelian wrote:
>> Sorry, didn't mean to convey that impression. I just meant to say that
>> there is good stuff out there, even now. Among modern shows, I sorta
>> like Slayers, Rayearth, and Fushigi Yuugi,
>
>Fushigi Yuugi.. is this "The Wonder Play"? If so, I have seen one episode. I
>didn't like it much until I was told what it was about, since I got it
>taped off of Japanese TV...
There is a lot of uncertainty as to exactly how to translate "Fushigi Yuugi".
I think I like "Mysterious Game" myself, but I think the ambiguity inherent
in the Japanese provides a nice multiple-ententre that suits the series quite
well.
DREW WEBBER
Anand Chelian (ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu) wrote:
: >This is another one I was surprised to here so much praise about. What is
: >this one about?
: It is about innocence.
Well, THAT'S saying a lot. :) Actually, I just read a description of it
somewhere else yesterday. It DOES sounds good...
--
Anand Chelian
In article <4mvrpd$n...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Anand Chelian (ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu) writes:
>> I am curious as to what you find worse about modern animation
>> techniques? How are they inferior?
>Hmmm...I overstated somewhat (now that I think about it). Most of today's
>animation is at the level of yesteryear, but without the amount of
>experimentation the old works had (especially Tatsunoko's). It has become
>complacent, and to me complacency is something one enjoys briefly, not for a
>decade or more.
Ah, so part of your complaint is about the rate of innovation in the
animation. I will say that the next great frontier in the animation
industry seems to be computer graphics, and it looks like people are
trying to get over the capital potential barrier to get the equipment
and training. So when computer animation manages to get more sophisti-
cated, we will probably see another age of innovation. Until then,
the animation probably will not change much from the current standards.
The standard has also gotten lower. What was yesterday's
>TV anime standard becomes today's OVA standard (look at Zeta Gundam and
>Maison Ikkoku then look at today's OVA offerings). 25-year old series like
>Gatchaman (OK, 24) are often drawn with more care than today's series
>(e.g., V Gundam).
If I remember Zeta Gundam correctly, the amount of work put into the
animation was low, and seemed almost reminiscent of Gundam in terms of
lack of detail. (The number of lines per mech, and the number of curves
per face seemed low.) As for MI, it was truly far ahead of it's time
in terms of animation quality, I think it shows in the fact that very
few shows period have managed the consistency and quality of MI (not
even many movies). There are shows with animation that is equivalent,
but there are very few shows w/ backgrounds as good.
>The inferiority comes from both a lowering of quality standards and a lack
>of spirit.
Well, I will say that a lot of the artwork produced today doesn't match
well when considered against the best the past has to offer, but "the
best the past has to offer," is the best, and really doesn't make a fair
comparision.
And if I understand the "lack of spirit" correctly, i.e. a reflection of
the rate of innovation, then you might be correct. I tend to think that
the artists are trying to innovate in different areas.
>I don't mind cliched works at all, and I don't think I've attacked works
>for being cliched--but for their being unoriginal. (Walking a fine line
>here.) Well-presented cliches can be immensely enjoyable, like your
>example of Star Wars. Evangelion's various battles with Angels are
>essentially recycles of old, innovative battles seen in giant robot and
>giant hero (live action) shows, but they're damned fun!
I have occasionally noted a difference between being cliche, and being
cliche in new and interesting ways. However, I think that limiting your
definitions of cliche only to certain areas (i.e. plot, or animation)
can miss the point. After all, the important thing in my mind is that
the best gets better as time goes on, and if we are lucky, the worst gets
better as well. And I find the story/plot, etc. more important than a
lot of the other stuff anyway.
>> It looks like the old anime
>> wasn't far enough above it's origins to make it. Just because this is a
>> new generation, does not mean that they are wrong, uninnovative, or bad.
>Well, the current generation needs a kick in the pants. ^_^; Old anime
>does make it far, but many here don't have access to it. Series from both
>'70s and '80s are being released on LDs in droves. I seriously doubt it
>would be the case if there's not a market for them.
They are being released on LDs for the first time, and all the old fans
leap out to buy them. I must say, I am tempted by nostalgia as well, but
not to the point of letting good memories interfere w/ current tastes.
At anyrate, things like the (now defunct) Zeta Gundam project would have
been leveraged by those. Besides, US is about a decade behind Japan as
far as regular anime goes anyway, so maybe we'll see some of the old
classics in the US again later.
>> Having seen some Rose of Versailles, and some Harlock, I must dispute
>> the claim that the animation was more anatomically correct.
>I did say on average. Matsumoto is well-known for his conscious or
>unconscious fixation on characters with Twiggy-like figures. :-) And the
>shojo genre has never been a champion of correct figure forms.
Gundam was no great shakes on the anatomically correct front either. I
think I'd have to see more to make a conclusive judgement, but at first
sight, I think modern animation has the old stuff beat hands down.
>Please do not forget the rise of Sunrise and Bandai and their collective
>choke on the industry. Serious progress stalled ever since. Toei can be
>forgiven for their non-aggressive attitude because they're so big, nobody
>in Japan presents a serious competition.
True, you may rule the world, but Bandai will own it.. ;-)
Still, it looks like Bandai's iron grip is weakening (or at least they are
taking more chances).
>What I see as original was original in its time. Evangelion is "inferior"
>to Mazinger Z and Gatchaman in the sense it did not provide as much
>stimulation to people and the industry as those series did. (I should add
>that both were eye-popping in the visual sense in those days.) I do
>not disagree that different times call for different vanguards, but I bemoan
>the lack of people who are willing to take charge and the quality of work
>that does end up being forefront.
Hmm... I think that it is a bit early to come to conclusions about the
lasting effect of Evangelion. The propogation of ideas takes time. Also,
the cutting edge is the bleeding edge, and not many people are brave
enough to stay out there, especially in the current economy.
So anyway, what was the by-year count of the good stuff in the "Golden
Age?"
>Key is not bad (though not in animation--it's damn cheap), but it's a
>direct-to-video release (i.e., not intended for the majority of people).
>I'd like something far more influetial and omnipresent. Surely Sailor
>Moon, Slam Dunk and DBZ aren't it.
They (SM, Slam Dunk, DBZ) are definitely not it. =) But they can be fun.
I think the producers have come to the conclusion that as long as the
animation is above certain minimum standards, they will just make the
animation as good as it needs to be to tell the story, and if they have
a bigger budget, you'll see better artwork. If this results in better
stories, then I'll be satisfied to wait for the next quantum leap.
Besides, pushing the state of the art is intrinsically a fringe process.
>Michael Liu
>ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Anand Chelian
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960509...@bambam.magiccarpet.com>,
Ataru Moroboshi <at...@bambam.magiccarpet.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 9 May 1996, Anand Chelian wrote:
>Fushigi Yuugi.. is this "The Wonder Play"? If so, I have seen one episode. I
>didn't like it much until I was told what it was about, since I got it
>taped off of Japanese TV...
Yes, it is. It is a bit difficult to understand, but luckily it tends to
follow the manga very closely, which makes catching dialog so very much
easier.
>> Besides, large breast size has always been a problem. Heck the US movie
>> industry, before they sicced the censors on them, was a cesspool (not that
>> it isn't now).
>Yeah.. but it wasn't nearly as bad as it has been since around 1990.
I was talking back in the 'teens, and the '20s. Most of the offerings
ranged around the X rated category (if I remember correctly). At some
point people complained, and movie makers began self-censorship.
>> The dub does have a couple of points where it is different from the sub/
>> original. Most notably in the religious ideas it tries to convey. I feel
>> that the religious themes were seriously mishandled (unfortunately, those
>> were the only things I came to see, not having understood them fully in the
>> original).
>That's good to hear, since those points were what bugged me about the
>dub. Such a shame, too, since the dubbing actually wasn't THAT bad.. I'm
>going to try and see a subbed version soon, so maybe that will change my
>opinion of the movie.
Yeah. WoH manages to get lots of criticism from me because it is so good
and so close to the original. Most other dubs, I simply ignore out of
hand, but this was good enough to catch my attention.
>*---Rev. Drew Webber--aka Ataru Morobosh...@bambam.magiccarpet.com--*
--
M.R. Opel
Here's some more info bearing on the question of "do normal Japanese
adults watch Eva?"....
We've been watching Evangelion at meetings of the UConn anime club
for the past 5 months or so, and it draws in three Japanese grad students
every week (all over age 25, I would guess). A pretty good turnout,
considerng that the Japanese population of the university numbers about
20. This is the interesting part: none of these people are anime fans -
they show up for Eva, then leave under cover of darkness before anyone
assoiates them with the otaku crowd ^_^ A fourth grad student doesn't
often come to meetings, but had her sister in Japan tape the show for
her. The sister, who is a karaoke fan, went out and bought the CD single
for "Zankoku na Tenshi no Teeze" after being coerced into watching a
couple of episodes. ^_^
Not to mention the 20 or 30 non-Japanese members of the club who
absolutely love the show, as indicated in a recent pole...
-Matt Opel
"wai wai! there are Eva threads again!"
Kagato
DREW WEBBER (at...@magiccarpet.com) wrote:
: Well, THAT'S saying a lot. :) Actually, I just read a description of it
: somewhere else yesterday. It DOES sounds good...
It is the best OAV series I've seen in the past year and a half.
(And I'll have my ep. 10/11 LD this week ^^)
It is an android-seeking-humanity story, but without any hint of the
cliche this might suggest. *Exceptionally* well done; especially
director Sato Hiroaki's visual style.
--
/*------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher S. Rider -- "The Old Crow" -- http://www.mcs.com/~syzygy/
God's in his Heaven. All's right with the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------------*/
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <4mvu06$o...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Mayeen Alam (ma...@netcom.com) writes:
>> I hardly find any bit of animation technique to be worthy of even a
>>honorable mention in animation hall of fame. For it's time, even Hanna
>>Barbara had better techniques. Or maybe you like watching the ground move one
>>tires) moves in a totally different direction. Perhaps you like the way many
>>of the robots look like they are doing the Motown Sneak while walking about.
>>Perhaps you like the oh so wonderful storylines (GAAAACK! would adequetly
>>summerize my reaction).
>
>That's artwork; not animation. Today's production is about as jerky as
>productions in the past.
I beg your pardon? The mechanics of portraying a dynamic scene (motorcycles
moving or what have you) by a series of still frames is most certainly
"animation". "Artwork" seems to apply to the _aesthetic_ properties of the
work (beautiful backgrounds, finely-detailed clothing), but "animation"
applies to the _kinetic_ and _temporal_ properties of the work.
>>Then what, pray tell was the point? Ground breaking? Not. Philosophy? Not
>>even close. Am I missing something having watched them that you have not?
>>What exactly?
>
>The pioneering spirit and anime ground-breaking. Eva had neither. Gainax
>had the attitude but not the spirit. It's like going to war with bloodlust
>but not a desire to save people. You gotta have both to be whole. That's
>why I called Eva something like a clone show from the '70s. Those guys had
>pioneering spirit but no bloodlust. Eva's out for blood only.
I don't think your analogy of war is valid. "Pioneering spirit" is what is
needed to _colonize_ a frontier. "Entrepeneurial spirit" is what is necessary
to _develop_ that frontier. In both cases the frontier folk have a standard
of living to be concerned with. A small number of people would like to be
colonists for the raw thrill of carving out a minimal existence from bare
rock and sand, and perhaps paving the way for "future generations". I contend
that most people would much rather live in the homes with running water and
electricity. To be precise: I think most people would rather _perfect_ an
art than invent it, especially if the products of that art must be appreciated
by others to have much value.
>> What Eva most reminded me of was an effective and seriouse lampooning
>>of the genre. It shishkabobed it very effectively. I'm picturing Mazinga Z on
>>a BBQ pit with a silver rod going through it's heart spinning lazily in the
>>summer sun with tire treads running all over its body. But then that's just
>>me.
>
>No, Eva lampooned nothing. It's your perception. :-) People often look
>at Japan's live-action shows or anime like Mazinger and decide it's camp.
>They are decidedly not. They were made seriously. Gainax understands
>that. North Americans either can't cross the cultural gap or just can't
>take things too seriously.
I would be very wary of making blanket statements about North Americans like
that.
Michael Liu
> moving or what have you) by a series of still frames is most certainly
> "animation". "Artwork" seems to apply to the _aesthetic_ properties of the
> work (beautiful backgrounds, finely-detailed clothing), but "animation"
> applies to the _kinetic_ and _temporal_ properties of the work.
The change from speedlines to a mostly still background is still mainly
artwork, not animation. Having something drawn at the back--even if it
moves little or not at all--can have more effect than people might suppose.
(Note: I know little about the actual craft of animation. The observations
I make are based on years of viewing.) The style of artwork may sometimes
make the audience think the pictures are livlier than they actually are. I
think the current style make the screen look busy, but the animation hasn't
really improved.
> I don't think your analogy of war is valid. "Pioneering spirit" is what is
> needed to _colonize_ a frontier. "Entrepeneurial spirit" is what is necessary
> to _develop_ that frontier. In both cases the frontier folk have a standard
> of living to be concerned with.
That standard of living hasn't changed much for over 10 years. The old
series managed to break new grounds and look good (for their time, of
course) simultaneously. The bloodlust I mentioned is what you mean by
"entrepreneurial spirit." Gainax struck me as having gone out to deliver a
slam-bang piece of entertainment and demolish the competition (i.e., uh,
development ^_^) rather than going to somewhere new.
For Chinese, pioneering means war. ^_^;
> I would be very wary of making blanket statements about North Americans like
> that.
Please don't get nit-picky. The statement obviously meant "most North
Americans." OK, how many of you can actually watch Japanese SFX from any
time period without breaking out into fits of laughter, understand what
they're trying to convey, and become hot-blooded? If you can't, you don't
get it. :-)
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Donny CHAN
In article <177841205BS...@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>,
MRO9...@UConnVM.UConn.Edu (M.R. Opel) wrote:
] Here's some more info bearing on the question of "do normal Japanese
]adults watch Eva?"....
[Munch]
] Not to mention the 20 or 30 non-Japanese members of the club who
]absolutely love the show, as indicated in a recent pole...
Do you bash each non-Japanese member with the "pole" until he/she confesses
he/she absolutely loves the show? 8)
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| crs...@inforamp.net (Donny CHAN) |
| University of Toronto Mechanical Engineering 9T3+1 ERTW |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Don "Gamera" Chan's Top Three Anime Girls |
| |
| Name Anime Seiyuu |
| |
| Asagiri Yohko Genmu Senki LEDA Tsuru Hiromi |
| Ayukawa Madoka Kimagure ORANGE ROAD Tsuru Hiromi |
| Tokimatsuri Eve Mugen Chitai MEGAZONE 23 Miyasato Kumi |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>Name one old anime that makes a grab at teenagers' collective crotch.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
Charles Hagmaier
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> writes:
>I was arguing from the point of view that a direct-to-video release should
>have a higher quality than TV release. Dallos came out earlier than 1985,
>and I hear it was well-done for its time. Even late '80s offerings like
>Ryger sometimes look better than Sunrise's Dirty Pair Flash. I think the
>average quality of OVA today has become steadily lower in order to break
>even. The animation in Key the Metal Idol is sometimes less than
>Gatchaman's.
respectable animation level (not stunning, but workmanlike). Also, it
plays with the ideas that you insistently complain are no longer addressed
in anime... DF Flash was more interesting, to me, than any of the Old
DP, except maybe Eden. I always thought the Flash writers were pretty
brave in letting the protagonists be a pair of patsies, employed by
a WWWA that wasn't much better than a government-recognized mafia.
There's something charmingly ugly at the core of the first DF Flash
series. Of course, a lot of fanboys looked at all the "fan service"
and surface jokes (the dippy transformation bits, the damn lightsabre)
and didn't pay attenton to the action underneath it.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
Mughi
In article <4n2q48$g...@bambam.magiccarpet.com>, at...@magiccarpet.com says...
>
>Anand Chelian (ana...@ugcs.caltech.edu) wrote:
>
>: >This is another one I was surprised to here so much praise about. What is
>: >this one about?
>
>: It is about innocence.
>
>somewhere else yesterday. It DOES sounds good...
It is very good. I've only seen it in origional form(going to be getting a
sub next week), but I still LOVE KtMI. If you get a chance to see it, DO
IT! It's one of my favorites. And actually, its about alot of things.
Innocence is only a part of it. Soundtrack is good to. :)
-Josh
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| jhol...@oboe.aix.calpoly.edu |or beautiful! -Gally |
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Michael Liu
Michael Liu (ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
>
> The change from speedlines to a mostly still background is still mainly
> artwork, not animation. Having something drawn at the back--even if it
> moves little or not at all--can have more effect than people might suppose.
> (Note: I know little about the actual craft of animation. The observations
> I make are based on years of viewing.) The style of artwork may sometimes
> make the audience think the pictures are livlier than they actually are. I
> think the current style make the screen look busy, but the animation hasn't
> really improved.
I think both Mark and I are sidetracked by semantics and trivia here. What
I refer to as an improvement in artwork is probably considered as an
improvement in animation by the professionals, but can you agree that
animation hasn't really changed very much over the decades, Mark? I mean,
surely today's products look a heck of a lot better to some people, but the
frame count is likely very much the same.
Yes, I agree there were many deficiencies in the old days, but there are
probably just as many in today's animation. We need more works like Eva.
Anyways, let's get back on the road and head off to whereever we were
headed and dash to the end of rec.arts.anime in a blaze of glory. ^O^
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Michael Liu
Donny CHAN (crs...@inforamp.net) writes:
>
> In article <177841205BS...@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>,
> MRO9...@UConnVM.UConn.Edu (M.R. Opel) wrote:
>
> ] Not to mention the 20 or 30 non-Japanese members of the club who
> ]absolutely love the show, as indicated in a recent pole...
>
> Do you bash each non-Japanese member with the "pole" until he/she confesses
> he/she absolutely loves the show? 8)
Nah, those non-Japanese members more than likely carved in the poles around
campus with graffitti like, "[Student Name] + Asuka 4 Ever." This is
precisely the type of behaviour that makes anime otakus social outcasts,
you know. They deserve all the bashes in the head they can receive.
Michael Liu
ae...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Mark L. Neidengard
In article <4n24qo$e...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Michael Liu <ae...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Those aren't bad. I don't think I've ever dissed Patlabor or Key. To me,
>lack of presentation does not matter if the content is there. Your
>argument seems to mean that if a teacher is bad, the material taught is
>less relevant. I say the content stands on its own and whether it's well
>presented only affects the learning of the students. The old stuff
>introduced ideas; the new stuff does not.
My argument is, in part, that if the teacher is bad the material is less
_accessible_ (although not necessarily less relevent). This seems to be
common sense. =) The most important point in the world is for naught if
noone can be made to understand it.
>> Neither does modern anime.
>
>Name one old anime that makes a grab at teenagers' collective crotch.
Well, you've said that you consider Iczer One to be recent (though I believe
it is a decade old by now), but I'd call that one of the older anime that
has some unmistakable fan shots included. One of the very few episodes of
Cat's Eye that I watched (and subsequently couldn't stand to watch any more)
had some _pretty_ skin-tight clothing on its heroines at a couple points.
"But they were stealing something at the time!" Shikatta nai. And then of
course, there's Dream Hunter Rem, especially the special X-rated version of
the first episode (material that is both dated and gratuitous). When did that
come out?