How commercialized is otakudom in Japan
Lee Ratner
Slate.com had an article on dating sims today in their Double X
blog. This got me thinking about a major difference between Japanese
otakudom and Western fendom. Japanese otakudom seems to be much more
commercialized than Western fendom in that there are lots more
businesses dedicated to making money by catering to the tastes of
otaku than businesses dedicated to making money from the tastes of
Western fen. Dating sims were created as a way to make money off of
the emotional needs of otaku, who stereotypically lack girlfriends.
Many Western fen, especially boys and men, have similar problems
stereotypically but no industry, except maybe porn, tried to cater to
these needs.
Any reason why Japanese business people, who are not necessarily
otaku, are more willing to try to make money by catering to otaku
taste than Western businessmen are to catering to the tastes of
Western fen?
Giovanni Wassen
> Many Western fen
I'm curious, is 'fen' actually a word? I do know a certain creature living
in hyperspace from the shortlived live action series Crusade was called
'fen' as a deliberate pun (since they were attracted to bright shiny
objects but lose interest quickly).
--
Gio
http://www.watkijkikoptv.info
http://myanimelist.net/profile/extatix
http://watkijkikoptv.info/animeblog
Benjamin L. Russell
Most likely, it's just the sheer indigenous population of otaku. There
are enough otaku in Tokyo alone to keep the streets of Akihabara full
of people most days of the year; even the architecture of the
buildings in Akihabara, which are designed to keep people outside the
buildings from seeing who is inside them, is catered specifically to
the needs of otaku. Compare the dominant architecture of the
buildings in Akihabara with that of the buildings in Shibuya (which is
a district in Tokyo geared mainly to teenagers and adults in their
20's, with many buildings with large windows overlooking the city),
and you can immediately see the difference.
There was even a topic broadcast once on the NHK WORLD TV program
"BEGIN Japanology" (see
http://www.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/english/tv/japanology/) in which the
host, Peter Barakan, claimed that there were no locations similar to
Akihabara in which a subculture (as opposed to an ethnic group or
economic class) influenced the dominant city architecture. Another
person on an electronic bulletin board in New York City who claimed to
have visited Tokyo commented that Tokyo was unusual in being a city
with areas having specific "moods"; i.e., Akihabara had an "otaku
mood," Shibuya a "youth-oriented mood," Harajuku a "fashion mood," and
so forth; he wrote that most Western cities that he knew had a single
mood for the entire city.
Another possible reason is Japanese culture. I work in Tokyo, and
many of my Japanese coworkers tend to work late. Recently, because of
the recession, many coworkers have been going home earlier, but Japan
is mostly a group-oriented society with no "singles bar" custom (i.e.,
when people go to bars in Tokyo, they go in groups, not alone, and
don't usually meet new people). One coworker back in Manhattan who
once worked in Japan told me that unlike in bars in New York City, in
bars in Tokyo, "you go with your group, and you leave with your
group." There is no social custom, other than arranged marriage, that
specifically encourages singles in one group to meet singles who are
strangers in another group after college. As a result, although
people form groups, they don't meet members of the opposite gender
outside of their own group easily, and I suspect that this phenomenon
tends to lead to the formation of many more otaku in Japan (especially
in Tokyo) than in most Western countries.
With such a relatively large population of indigenous otaku, it tends
to be much easier to run a profitable business catering to them here
than in many Western countries. Hence, Japanese business people (who
may not necessarily be otaku themselves) tend to be more willing to
cater to the tastes of otaku (since they can earn higher profits by
doing so) than their Western counterparts.
But at least the otaku subculture is rich enough in Tokyo (at least in
Akihabara) to keep life from becoming boring for many otaku. With all
the anime, manga, role-playing games, online games, game centers,
events, costumes, dolls, costume plays, and even maid-kissa coffee
shops here, some otaku here may worry more about simply getting enough
sleep than something so mundane as dating! There's always something
fascinating to do, especially if one wants to keep up in discussions
with other otaku on 2-channel (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2channel), and never enough time to do
everything that needs to be done.
-- DekuDekuplex
--
Benjamin L. Russell / DekuDekuplex at Yahoo dot com
http://dekudekuplex.wordpress.com/
Translator/Interpreter / Mobile: +011 81 80-3603-6725
"Furuike ya, kawazu tobikomu mizu no oto."
-- Matsuo Basho^
Galen
<DekuDe...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
> even the architecture of the
>buildings in Akihabara, which are designed to keep people outside the
>buildings from seeing who is inside them, is catered specifically to
>the needs of otaku.
Post-war Akihabara was smuggling and grey market goods.
Lee Ratner
wrote:
Japanese otakudom is more commercialized than Western fandom due to a
combination of geography, demographics, and economics. Japan's
geography makes Japan a dense place, with around 46 million living in
the Kanto area alone. This leads to many area of Japan having a higher
population of otaku than a metropolitan area in America or Europe
would have of Western fen. The higher concentration of otaku, has
anybody every done a proper census to figure out how many otaku or fen
are there, creates more opportunities for businessmen to cater to
otaku tastes. The average otaku seems to have more disposable income
than the average fan or at least more prone to spend money poorly
allowing said otaku businesses to thrive.
Lee Ratner
> Lee Ratner wrote:
> > Many Western fen
>
> I'm curious, is 'fen' actually a word? I do know a certain creature living
> in hyperspace from the shortlived live action series Crusade was called
> 'fen' as a deliberate pun (since they were attracted to bright shiny
> objects but lose interest quickly).
>
European fandom use it as a slang plural of fan.
sanjian
"Giovanni Wassen" <ext...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9CB257A322...@188.40.43.213...
> Lee Ratner wrote:
>
>> Many Western fen
>
> I'm curious, is 'fen' actually a word? I do know a certain creature living
> in hyperspace from the shortlived live action series Crusade was called
> 'fen' as a deliberate pun (since they were attracted to bright shiny
> objects but lose interest quickly).
That depends on your definition of "word." I say it is, because it's in
wide-spread use. At least in America, we don't have a Ministry of Language
(MiniWord), so that which people say are words, whether the dictionary
companies agree or not. And, in the end, a dictionary can only be
descriptive, since they have no authority to be prescriptive in any sense
beyond "helpful suggestion."
Granted, the teaching world may take issue with my Humpty-Dumpty views, here
(with all due deference to "A Certain Linguistic Sensei").
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Lee Ratner wrote:
>
>> Many Western fen
>
> I'm curious, is 'fen' actually a word?
Yep. It's an invention of science-fiction fandom dating back to, oh,
the 60s at least I think. It's a plural of "fan", following the same
pattern as "man"--"men", thus "fan" -- "fen".
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
John Burnham
> And, in the end, a dictionary can only be
> descriptive, since they have no authority to be prescriptive in any sense
> beyond "helpful suggestion."
>
Well, given that's the same sort of attitude the head of the lexicography
team for the OED had when I was going out with an OED lexicographer, I'd
say you're in good company.
Dictionaries should document how language is used, not constrain the
language in a straitjacket.
J
Aje.RavenStar
"Lee Ratner" <lbra...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1ffd7925-464b-44ea...@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
It's a word as far as I'm concerned. I've seen it used for 30-40 years, in
verbal conversation and in print (at least 2 books I can think of off the
top of my head, including a Larry Niven one). Specialized term, but every
field has those, with a clear and accepted definition and meaning.
sanjian
"John Burnham" <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.10.28....@jaka.demon.co.uk...
"I will not crucify this language upon a cross of gold!" -- William
Jennings Bryan
"The dictionary is not a suicide pact." -- Various Right Wingers
"The dictionary is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed
and degraded state of linguistic ability which thinks that no rules of usage
are valid is much worse. The person who has no words for which he is willing
to fight, nothing which is more important than his own tribe's slang, is a
miserable creature and has no chance of being literate unless made and kept
so by the exertions of better men than himself." -- John Stewart Mill
John Burnham
> "The dictionary is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed
> and degraded state of linguistic ability which thinks that no rules of usage
> are valid is much worse. The person who has no words for which he is willing
> to fight, nothing which is more important than his own tribe's slang, is a
> miserable creature and has no chance of being literate unless made and kept
> so by the exertions of better men than himself." -- John Stewart Mill
Intriguing. One way of interpreting this is that he's arguing for the
stagnation of language, preventing its evolution....
Personally, I believe that there should be rules of usage that everyone
agrees on (otherwise communication becomes more difficult) but they must
never be allowed to become hidebound. Defying any change is a surefire
way to extinction - adapt and evolve.
(Oh, but a side effect of going out with a lexicographer is an intense
hatred of the kind of Sunday supplement journalist who spends their career
inventing new words merely for the sake of it.)
J
John Burnham
> Fen is not an actual word
Actually, it is - but I can only find 6 different definitions in the OED
of which none are the usage here:
1) Low land covered wholly or partially with shallow water, or subject to
frequent inundations; a tract of such land, a marsh
2) A mould or parasitical fungus that attacks the hop-plant.
3) A section in Avicenna's Canon.
4) A Chinese monetary unit equivalent to one hundredth of a yuan or one
tenth of a jiao; formerly, a candareen. Also, a coin of this value.
5) intr. Of certain animals: To void dung.
6) trans. To forbid. Only in ‘Fen (larks, etc.)!’, a prohibitory
exclamation, used chiefly by boys at marbles, etc., in order to balk, bar,
or prevent some action on the part of another.
But, as stated, dictionaries document usage and do not prescribe. If there
are sufficient documented written examples of fen meaning "plural of
fans", then it will make the OED eventually.
J (Dictionary geek)
sanjian
"John Burnham" <jo...@jaka.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.10.28....@jaka.demon.co.uk...
Actually, I wouldn't look for those to be his actual words. Consider them
to be my version of "Slightly Fractured Fairy Tales."
paul_0090
revised 3 times, last was 1935; also VW's 1st work for the orchestra.
from Chandos's program notes.
Aje.RavenStar
"paul_0090" <gu...@may.be.really.invalid> wrote in message
news:hc9rfm$jk7$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Well, like the post from John Burnham above this one (which mistakenly
quoted me, not Lee R., as saying fen was not a word), I think both of you
are off track. I was making my argument solely on 'fen' as used to specify
or identify members of fandom.
Doug Jacobs
>
>
> Slate.com had an article on dating sims today in their Double X
> blog. This got me thinking about a major difference between Japanese
> otakudom and Western fendom. Japanese otakudom seems to be much more
> commercialized than Western fendom in that there are lots more
> businesses dedicated to making money by catering to the tastes of
> otaku than businesses dedicated to making money from the tastes of
> Western fen.
Well, the market in Japan is a lot larger as well. I'm also not sure
what you'd call an otaku item, since anime and manga are merchandised a
lot more agressively than here. For instance when I was in Japan, the
stationary department in the local department store was clogged with
Sailor Moon and Dragonball Z stuff. Pens, pencisl, erasers, notebooks,
etc. But this wasn't stuff considered for otakus. Even visiting an
actual "anime store" in Osaka mainly carried stuff you could get at any
department store of book store.
Of course you had the garage model and figure kit companies selling their
wares out of a house somewhere. I'm not even sure why they're called
"garage models" as most places don't have a garage - attached or otherwise.
> Dating sims were created as a way to make money off of
> the emotional needs of otaku, who stereotypically lack girlfriends.
> Many Western fen, especially boys and men, have similar problems
> stereotypically but no industry, except maybe porn, tried to cater to
> these needs.
Dating sims' appeal go beyond the otaku, and are more of the result of
wanting to recreate romantic anime/manga in video game form. Of course
then there's the pornographic ones, but even those aren't marketed
specifically to otaku.
As for Americans who declare themselves to be otaku, I'm sorry, but 99% of
them don't even come close to the real thing.
> Any reason why Japanese business people, who are not necessarily
> otaku, are more willing to try to make money by catering to otaku
> taste than Western businessmen are to catering to the tastes of
> Western fen?
Again, size of the fandom is a major factor, and it's not just the hard
core fans. Look at Disney as a corrolary for the Japanese anime market.
Disney stuff is enjoyed by people of all ages, not just kids. There's
even fine jewelry of Mickey Mouse and other characters that costs
hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. There are Disney fans, but most of
what they collect isn't found in the general stores. They're after rare
and hard to find items such as the pins or old items no longer in
circulation. There are entire cottage industires for these fans, even
though we don't see any evidence of it just walking down the street.
Now take the breadth and depth of the Disney merchandising market and
imagine if it were applied to anime. That's what you have (soemwhat) in
Japan. Characters get printed on t-shirts, hats, stationary goods,
pressed into service selling items on TV, video games, collectible
figures, toys - you name it, there's probably an anime series or character
who has sold it at one point. Yet the majority of people buying this
stuff aren't otakus. Heck, they don't even consider themselves to be fans
at all. It'd be like saying everyone who liked Shrek is an otaku.
--
It's not broken. It's...advanced.
Inu-Yasha
including Larry Niven, and I do not remember ever seeing or hearing the
word fen or fendom until today. Actually, I believe dictionaries are
suppose to prevent the language from being contaminated {my words) with
unknown words invented by unknown people, until recognized language
authorities believe the word is unique and has acceptable meaning in
somewhat common usage. This keeps me from inventing a word like say
breevining, and saying it means reading a sci-fi book. I'm not even
certain if a Heinlein invented word 'grok' is in the dictionary. ^_^
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^
Aje.RavenStar
"Inu-Yasha" <tomco...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4ae8e6ed$0$5076$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com...
Fallen Angels, Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle, Michael Flynn. One of the best
sf book incorporation of fandom I've ever found. The place to send someone
who needs to know what a SMOF, fen, fanac, and a sensative fannish face are.
Inu-Yasha
Wait, isn't that something off of The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show?
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^
sanjian
> sanjian wrote:
>> Actually, I wouldn't look for those to be his actual words. Consider
>> them to be my version of "Slightly Fractured Fairy Tales."
>
> Wait, isn't that something off of The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show?
Why yes. Yes it is.
Inu-Yasha
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^
Captain Nerd
Inu-Yasha <tomco...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
They have many fine over-the-counter treatments for that nowadays...
^====^
To throw my 20 millidollars in, I've seen "fen" as a tongue-in-cheek
plural of "fan" since before the Internet. I believe I found it in
one of the old David Gerrold "Making of Star Trek" books from the
70's, although I don't remember exactly. I do know I've know of
"fen" for about 30 years.
Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
Captain Nerd
Doug Jacobs <dja...@rawbw.com> wrote:
> Lee Ratner <lbra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Slate.com had an article on dating sims today in their Double X
> > blog. This got me thinking about a major difference between Japanese
> > otakudom and Western fendom. Japanese otakudom seems to be much more
> > commercialized than Western fendom in that there are lots more
> > businesses dedicated to making money by catering to the tastes of
> > otaku than businesses dedicated to making money from the tastes of
> > Western fen.
>
> Well, the market in Japan is a lot larger as well. I'm also not sure
> what you'd call an otaku item, since anime and manga are merchandised a
> lot more agressively than here. For instance when I was in Japan, the
> stationary department in the local department store was clogged with
> Sailor Moon and Dragonball Z stuff. Pens, pencisl, erasers, notebooks,
> etc. But this wasn't stuff considered for otakus. Even visiting an
> actual "anime store" in Osaka mainly carried stuff you could get at any
> department store of book store.
>
> Of course you had the garage model and figure kit companies selling their
> wares out of a house somewhere. I'm not even sure why they're called
> "garage models" as most places don't have a garage - attached or otherwise.
Except for Sanrio, how many companies in Japan monitor all those
different products? I had the impression that garage kits fall into
that "gray area" that doujinshi are in, unofficial but ignored as
long as it promotes the main product, and hence other more official
merchandise.
> Now take the breadth and depth of the Disney merchandising market and
> imagine if it were applied to anime. That's what you have (soemwhat) in
> Japan. Characters get printed on t-shirts, hats, stationary goods,
> pressed into service selling items on TV, video games, collectible
> figures, toys - you name it, there's probably an anime series or character
> who has sold it at one point. Yet the majority of people buying this
> stuff aren't otakus. Heck, they don't even consider themselves to be fans
> at all. It'd be like saying everyone who liked Shrek is an otaku.
I think the point about Disney merchandise may be close to it,
although part of it is Disney's absolute power in pursuing any
trace of unofficial use of Disney trademarks. I don't know if
the Japanese companies have the equivalent of US "trademark" on
their characters and images, but it seems they are less aggressive
in pursuing protection, and that may leave the door open to more
companies and individuals riding their coattails. Lowering the
barriers to entry tends to make markets more crowded.
Also, the culture of manga there makes it more likely that people
will be exposed to characters for further into their adulthoods,
and there is (slightly) less stigma associated with reading manga.
Although I have to say, I rode the rails and Metro for 5 weeks a
couple years ago, and I didn't see many people reading, much
less reading manga. It could be the time of day I usually was on
there, but the passengers were mostly standing, sleeping, or
(if they were young) texting or gaming.
Oh, and I have to disagree with whoever said that Akiba was more
"closed" than Shibuya et. al., because "you can't see what's
going on in the buildings". Every building in Japan that I saw
had large columns of signage outside that advertised the company
and the floor they were on, and Akihabara was no different. Just
thought I'd throw that out.
Jim diGriz
> Lee Ratner wrote:
>
>> Many Western fen
>
> I'm curious, is 'fen' actually a word? I do know a certain creature living
fen as the plural for fan has been around for ages, at least in
science-fiction fandom.
JdG
Giovanni Wassen
>>> Many Western fen
>>
>> I'm curious, is 'fen' actually a word? I do know a certain creature
>> living
>
> fen as the plural for fan has been around for ages, at least in
> science-fiction fandom.
Well, outside of the afore mentionted SF series Crusade I've never heard of
it :) And I do read and watch lots of SF.
John Burnham
> I'm not even
> certain if a Heinlein invented word 'grok' is in the dictionary. ^_^
>
Yep. From the OED:
Grok: U.S. slang.
a. trans. (also with obj. clause) To understand intuitively or by
empathy; to establish rapport with. b. intr. To empathize or
communicate sympathetically (with); also, to experience enjoyment.
J
John Burnham
. Actually, I believe dictionaries are
> suppose to prevent the language from being contaminated {my words) with
> unknown words invented by unknown people, until recognized language
> authorities believe the word is unique and has acceptable meaning in
> somewhat common usage. This keeps me from inventing a word like say
> breevining, and saying it means reading a sci-fi book.
Oh yeah, you might be interested in this
<http://www.askoxford.com/worldofwords/newwords/newwordsdict/>
then. It describes how new words make it to the OED. The rule about 5
independent printed uses in 5 years is actually tighter than it was - it
used to only require 3 independent printed uses.
J
Galen
<ext...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Jim diGriz wrote:
>
>>>> Many Western fen
>>>
>>> I'm curious, is 'fen' actually a word? I do know a certain creature
>>> living
>>
>> fen as the plural for fan has been around for ages, at least in
>> science-fiction fandom.
>
>Well, outside of the afore mentionted SF series Crusade I've never heard of
>it :) And I do read and watch lots of SF.
Have you read
_Bimbos of the Death Sun_?
-Galen
Giovanni Wassen
>>Well, outside of the afore mentionted SF series Crusade I've never
>>heard of it :) And I do read and watch lots of SF.
> Have you read
> _Bimbos of the Death Sun_?
No, I didn't.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
It's unlikely he would have since if he's never heard the word "fen" in
that context, he's a fan, but not part of fan CULTURE, because that's
where you'd encounter it -- going to SF (not anime) conventions, hanging
out or talking with (mostly older-school) SF fans online, etc. You'll
see the word used fairly often in r.a.sf.w and r.a.sf.composition.
It's roughly equivalent to "otaku" in American anime fandom. It's a
self-designate that says "I'm a member of this 133t inner circle".
B Sellers
> Jim diGriz wrote:
>
>>>> Many Western fen
>>> I'm curious, is 'fen' actually a word? I do know a certain creature
>>> living
>> fen as the plural for fan has been around for ages, at least in
>> science-fiction fandom.
>
> Well, outside of the afore mentionted SF series Crusade I've never heard of
> it :) And I do read and watch lots of SF.
>
>
This is one of the long organized fan bases and people like me
who basically read lots of genre including SF seldom have anything to
do with fan publications which were very active over the 1940s and
1950s. I think the first fan convention happened in the 1930s but it
may have been before that with the group of writers in correspondence
with the estimable Howard Phillips Lovecraft.
later
bliss who has been to one SF convention and found I was an alien
among the cosplayers & partiers of the day. in the 1970s.
Giovanni Wassen
>>>>> Many Western fen
>>>> I'm curious, is 'fen' actually a word? I do know a certain creature
>>>> living
>>> fen as the plural for fan has been around for ages, at least in
>>> science-fiction fandom.
>>
>> Well, outside of the afore mentionted SF series Crusade I've never
>> heard of it :) And I do read and watch lots of SF.
>>
>>
> But how much Science Fiction fan publications do you access?
At the moment none.
> This is one of the long organized fan bases and people like me
> who basically read lots of genre including SF seldom have anything to
> do with fan publications which were very active over the 1940s and
> 1950s. I think the first fan convention happened in the 1930s but it
> may have been before that with the group of writers in correspondence
> with the estimable Howard Phillips Lovecraft.
I'll look in my SF encyclopedia what that has got to say about it :)
Gerardo Campos
>
> I have to admit that I've been around a while, read a lot of Sci-Fi,
> including Larry Niven, and I do not remember ever seeing or hearing the
> word fen or fendom until today. Actually, I believe dictionaries are
> suppose to prevent the language from being contaminated {my words) with
> unknown words invented by unknown people, until recognized language
> authorities believe the word is unique and has acceptable meaning in
> somewhat common usage. This keeps me from inventing a word like say
> breevining, and saying it means reading a sci-fi book. I'm not even
> certain if a Heinlein invented word 'grok' is in the dictionary. ^_^
>
The charter for this newsgroup, as I recall from an old faq, is:
Japanese animation fen discussion
[Editor’s Note: fen is a pluralized form of fan.]
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Lee Ratner
> In article <JPmdnUNzl6l6SnXXnZ2dnUVZ_umdn...@posted.rawbandwidth>,
> Doug Jacobs <djac...@rawbw.com> wrote:
The reason that Japanese companies do not pursue their trademarks
as hard as Disney or WB or other Ameircan companies is mainly because
they have fewer lawyers than can rely on, since very few Japanese
become lawyers, and there are not enough judges to deal with the cases
that would swamp the courts if they tried, again without lawyers you
do not get judges. I think more than a few Japanese business people
said they would strike down on doujinshi artists, especially the ones
that make CCS or the equivalent porn, as fast as Disney cracks down on
Mickey Mouse porn if they had the lawyers and judges to do so.
Doug Jacobs
> Except for Sanrio, how many companies in Japan monitor all those
> different products? I had the impression that garage kits fall into
> that "gray area" that doujinshi are in, unofficial but ignored as
> long as it promotes the main product, and hence other more official
> merchandise.
otaku in the first place. Even big fans of a series can still find plenty
of official stuff to buy without even having to venture into that world.
Most folks in Japan don't even know about it. It's like asking the man on
the street about where could one buy an Andorian officer's uniform. If
you're lucky he may know you're talking about Star Trek but more than
likely they'll have no idea what you're talking about.
>> Now take the breadth and depth of the Disney merchandising market and
>> imagine if it were applied to anime. That's what you have (soemwhat) in
>> Japan. Characters get printed on t-shirts, hats, stationary goods,
>> pressed into service selling items on TV, video games, collectible
>> figures, toys - you name it, there's probably an anime series or character
>> who has sold it at one point. Yet the majority of people buying this
>> stuff aren't otakus. Heck, they don't even consider themselves to be fans
>> at all. It'd be like saying everyone who liked Shrek is an otaku.
>
> I think the point about Disney merchandise may be close to it,
> although part of it is Disney's absolute power in pursuing any
> trace of unofficial use of Disney trademarks. I don't know if
> the Japanese companies have the equivalent of US "trademark" on
> their characters and images, but it seems they are less aggressive
> in pursuing protection, and that may leave the door open to more
> companies and individuals riding their coattails. Lowering the
> barriers to entry tends to make markets more crowded.
Within Japan, I think the Japanese companies are pretty agressive.
Outside Japan, however, we know they really don't bother.
> Also, the culture of manga there makes it more likely that people
> will be exposed to characters for further into their adulthoods,
> and there is (slightly) less stigma associated with reading manga.
> Although I have to say, I rode the rails and Metro for 5 weeks a
> couple years ago, and I didn't see many people reading, much
> less reading manga. It could be the time of day I usually was on
> there, but the passengers were mostly standing, sleeping, or
> (if they were young) texting or gaming.
Very true. While I was in Japan there was a manga series about a
submarine crew that was popuar with young adult males. Soon you were
seeing the crew hawking energy drinks and hangover cures during late night
programs. Just an example of the type merchandising the US market hasn't
even imagined yet.
Maureen
Fancyclopedia I by Jack Speer (published in 1944) noted that fen had
been "officially" voted to be the plural of fan in 1943 at the Maine
convention. Logically, this would mean that the word had already
existed for some short time, unless it was invented for the purpose of
the Mecon joke.
It is heartwarming, of course, to reflect that even in WWII, fen found
time to have fun like this.
http://fanac.org/Fannish_Reference_Works/Fancyclopedia/Fancyclopedia_I/
Maureen
Doug Jacobs
> Most likely, it's just the sheer indigenous population of otaku.
I would be very surprised if 0.05% of the population considered themselves
otaku. We aren't talking about a very large number of people here.
Certainly nothing that you would normally base a business off of.
> There
> are enough otaku in Tokyo alone to keep the streets of Akihabara full
> of people most days of the year; even the architecture of the
> buildings in Akihabara, which are designed to keep people outside the
> buildings from seeing who is inside them, is catered specifically to
> the needs of otaku. Compare the dominant architecture of the
> buildings in Akihabara with that of the buildings in Shibuya (which is
> a district in Tokyo geared mainly to teenagers and adults in their
> 20's, with many buildings with large windows overlooking the city),
> and you can immediately see the difference.
No...no there aren't. While there are certainly otaku who spend a lot of
time at Akihabara, most of the folks aren't otaku at all. Just being a
geek, nerd, or fan doesn't make someone an otaku.
As for the architecture comparison, remember that those buildings were
built decades before the otaku phenomenon even appeared, much less was
named.
> There was even a topic broadcast once on the NHK WORLD TV program
> "BEGIN Japanology" (see
> http://www.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/english/tv/japanology/) in which the
> host, Peter Barakan, claimed that there were no locations similar to
> Akihabara in which a subculture (as opposed to an ethnic group or
> economic class) influenced the dominant city architecture. Another
> person on an electronic bulletin board in New York City who claimed to
> have visited Tokyo commented that Tokyo was unusual in being a city
> with areas having specific "moods"; i.e., Akihabara had an "otaku
> mood," Shibuya a "youth-oriented mood," Harajuku a "fashion mood," and
> so forth; he wrote that most Western cities that he knew had a single
> mood for the entire city.
Ugh, what a horrible comparison. It's like saying "Saks 5th Avenue" has a
"fashion vibe" to it, while the food court area of the mall has a
"Lunchtime vibe".
> Another possible reason is Japanese culture. I work in Tokyo, and
> many of my Japanese coworkers tend to work late. Recently, because of
> the recession, many coworkers have been going home earlier, but Japan
> is mostly a group-oriented society with no "singles bar" custom (i.e.,
> when people go to bars in Tokyo, they go in groups, not alone, and
> don't usually meet new people). One coworker back in Manhattan who
> once worked in Japan told me that unlike in bars in New York City, in
> bars in Tokyo, "you go with your group, and you leave with your
> group." There is no social custom, other than arranged marriage, that
> specifically encourages singles in one group to meet singles who are
> strangers in another group after college. As a result, although
> people form groups, they don't meet members of the opposite gender
> outside of their own group easily, and I suspect that this phenomenon
> tends to lead to the formation of many more otaku in Japan (especially
> in Tokyo) than in most Western countries.
Otaku have no group - that's one of the things that makes them otaku in
the first place. Even if their group goes out for drinks after work, the
otaku doesn't - or only goes for the minimum required amount of time.
> With such a relatively large population of indigenous otaku, it tends
> to be much easier to run a profitable business catering to them here
> than in many Western countries. Hence, Japanese business people (who
> may not necessarily be otaku themselves) tend to be more willing to
> cater to the tastes of otaku (since they can earn higher profits by
> doing so) than their Western counterparts.
What exactly is a business catering to otaku? The nearest I can think of
would be the maid cafe's, but even then those are popular with the same
group of folks who go to strip clubs or girly bars to oogle the girls.
One thing that hasn't been pointed out is that Japan in general is a lot
more accepting of fantasy. No one cares what you do in your private life
so long as it doesn't affect anyone else around you. And so, that's what
most otaku have done. They've constructed their own little private
fantasy world where they prefer to live, as opposed to the reality where
they've been rejected by a society that states YOU MUST FIT IN.
Inu-Yasha
Hopefully that's not electro-shock therapy. I have a hard enough time
as it is hangin' on to my bottle in a bag. ^__-;
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! belch!! 9_9;
Inu-Yasha
He, he, that gives new meaning to someone hollering "Incoming!", and
then hitting the dirt. <grin.
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^
Invid Fan
it covers both the fan and business side of things :)
--
Chris Mack *quote under construction*
'Invid Fan'
B Sellers
> I'm going to assume everyone in this thread has seen Otaku no Video, as
> it covers both the fan and business side of things :)
>
And of course "Welcome to the NHK" covers the less rational aspects
of the scene. But I like "Genshiken" for the group the otaku create and
"Animation
Runner Kuromi" for the light it sheds on the workers, some of whom are otaku
as well as I recall..
The first few volumes of "Comic Party" are pretty explanatory too. After
a while though the "harem" aspects of the situation over-power anything
else.
later
bliss
DekuDekuplex
wrote:
>Benjamin L. Russell <DekuDe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Most likely, it's just the sheer indigenous population of otaku.
>
>I would be very surprised if 0.05% of the population considered themselves
>otaku. We aren't talking about a very large number of people here.
>Certainly nothing that you would normally base a business off of.
Let's calculate: According to the entry for "Demographics of Japan"
in Wikipedia (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan),
"As of March 2009, Japan's population is 127,076,183, making it the
world's tenth most populated country." Even using your
ultra-conservative estimate, 0.05% of 127,076,183 is 63,538, which
seems enough of a base to run a business (most otaku that I know of
are sufficiently dedicated to their hobbies that they don't mind
spending an entire night outside a building in the cold in the winter
just to attend an special game event at Makuhari, or to travel from
Kyushu to Akihabara to purchase a limited edition anime/game item, so
it makes sense to use this estimate).
Also, I don't think that your estimate of "0.05% of the population" is
accurate. I work at a patent office in Tokyo with about 100
employees, and I know that there are at least 2 self-proclaimed
"otaku" employees in this company. That's 2% for one company, not
0.05%. 2% of 127,076,183 is 2,541,523, which is much more than enough
of a base to run a business.
>
>> There
>> are enough otaku in Tokyo alone to keep the streets of Akihabara full
>> of people most days of the year; even the architecture of the
>> buildings in Akihabara, which are designed to keep people outside the
>> buildings from seeing who is inside them, is catered specifically to
>> the needs of otaku. Compare the dominant architecture of the
>> buildings in Akihabara with that of the buildings in Shibuya (which is
>> a district in Tokyo geared mainly to teenagers and adults in their
>> 20's, with many buildings with large windows overlooking the city),
>> and you can immediately see the difference.
>
>No...no there aren't. While there are certainly otaku who spend a lot of
>time at Akihabara, most of the folks aren't otaku at all. Just being a
>geek, nerd, or fan doesn't make someone an otaku.
>
>As for the architecture comparison, remember that those buildings were
>built decades before the otaku phenomenon even appeared, much less was
>named.
Hm, that goes directly counter to what Peter Barakan said about the
architecture of Akihabara in one evening on the the NHK WORLD TV
program "BEGIN Japanology." I don't know what he based his statistics
on, but he specifically mentioned a connection between the different
styles of architecture in Akihabara and Shibuya and the types of
people who go to them, stating that "otaku" influence the architecture
of the former. Perhaps the buildings in Akihabara were not originally
designed for otaku, but the fact that they are currently used by many
otaku, and tend to serve their needs and draw them to that specific
location in a way that the buildings in Shibuya do not for that
particular subculture (vice-versa can be said for the subculture that
frequents Shibuya), is one reason that for this perceived correlation?
>
>> There was even a topic broadcast once on the NHK WORLD TV program
>> "BEGIN Japanology" (see
>> http://www.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/english/tv/japanology/) in which the
>> host, Peter Barakan, claimed that there were no locations similar to
>> Akihabara in which a subculture (as opposed to an ethnic group or
>> economic class) influenced the dominant city architecture. Another
>> person on an electronic bulletin board in New York City who claimed to
>> have visited Tokyo commented that Tokyo was unusual in being a city
>> with areas having specific "moods"; i.e., Akihabara had an "otaku
>> mood," Shibuya a "youth-oriented mood," Harajuku a "fashion mood," and
>> so forth; he wrote that most Western cities that he knew had a single
>> mood for the entire city.
>
>Ugh, what a horrible comparison. It's like saying "Saks 5th Avenue" has a
>"fashion vibe" to it, while the food court area of the mall has a
>"Lunchtime vibe".
It wasn't my comparison, but that of a bulletin board reader in New
York City. Also, I've been to both the Saks 5th Avenue in Manhattan
(I used to live there) and to Shibuya, but that kind of analogy isn't
accurate. Saks 5th Avenue is a store; Shibuya is a ward. It is more
similar to draw an analogy between the Upper West Side and Lower
Manhattan parts of New York (which I've both been to), and to compare
this analogy to that of Akihabara vs. Shibuya.
I used to live on West 94th Street on the Upper West Side in Manhattan
for 8 years, but the subculture there did not seem very different from
than in lower Manhattan: the dominant subcultural themes in both
areas were finance, art (theater, specifically, and art/natural
science museums), or a combination of the two (although each person
had different interests, these two themes stood out in seeming shared
by most people), and most people in the Upper West Side seemd to have
similar hobby-related interests as the people in Lower Manhattan, too
(mainly art (theater, specifically) and finance).
This is quite different from Akihabara vs. Shibuya. Akihabara, from
what I've seen by going there many times over the past 5 years (and
for another 11 years between 1979 and 1989, when I had previously also
lived in Tokyo, before going to college), tends to have a much higher
percentage of people who tend to be very interested in
anime/games/maid kissa than Shibuya. There are often young women
dressed in maid-like costumes distributing flyers outside Akihabara
Station, soliciting customers for these maid kissa. A much higher
percentage of young people in Akihabara dress very casually, and seem
more interested in specific media mix hobbies often related anime,
manga, and RPG products, than in wearing the latest fashion and
hanging out at cafes, fashion shops, or records stores as in Shibuya.
In other words, as far as I can tell, while the dominant subcultures
of the Upper West Side and Lower Manhattan areas of Manhattan are very
similar, those of Akihabara and Shibuya are quite different, and can
be distinguished the moment one steps out of the train station, often
just by looking around for a few seconds (I don't remember having seen
any maid kissa waitresses dressed in costumes in Shibuya recently, but
do remember having seen them recently in Akihabara). This, I think,
is what the bulletin board reader meant by "different moods."
>
>> Another possible reason is Japanese culture. I work in Tokyo, and
>> many of my Japanese coworkers tend to work late. Recently, because of
>> the recession, many coworkers have been going home earlier, but Japan
>> is mostly a group-oriented society with no "singles bar" custom (i.e.,
>> when people go to bars in Tokyo, they go in groups, not alone, and
>> don't usually meet new people). One coworker back in Manhattan who
>> once worked in Japan told me that unlike in bars in New York City, in
>> bars in Tokyo, "you go with your group, and you leave with your
>> group." There is no social custom, other than arranged marriage, that
>> specifically encourages singles in one group to meet singles who are
>> strangers in another group after college. As a result, although
>> people form groups, they don't meet members of the opposite gender
>> outside of their own group easily, and I suspect that this phenomenon
>> tends to lead to the formation of many more otaku in Japan (especially
>> in Tokyo) than in most Western countries.
>
>Otaku have no group - that's one of the things that makes them otaku in
>the first place. Even if their group goes out for drinks after work, the
>otaku doesn't - or only goes for the minimum required amount of time.
That's not quite true; I've been to stores that sell anime figurines
at the Nakano Sun Mall (see
http://www.worldstreetwalking.com/nakano_tokyo_us.html) (a popular
hideout for some otaku in Tokyo who have stopped going to Akihabara
because they belive that there are too many non-otaku people there
these days), and seen groups of otaku discussing which anime episodes
specific anime figurines appeared in. It's just that otaku need to
have identical interests to hang out together; if one anime otaku
likes mainly Gundam, and another likes mainly Suzumiya Haruhi no
Yuutsu, they won't group, even if they are both anime otaku.
Also, one of the distinguishing features that differentiates an otaku
from a mania(c) (the Japanese term for an aficionado of anime/games is
"mania," which is a shortened form of "maniakku," which is based on
"maniac" (see "Otaku - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku)) is an infatuation/obsession
with, or pseudo-romantic interest in, figurines based on characters in
the anime/RPG. This is definitely true of the Nakano Sun Mall crowd.
These are otaku, not mania(c)s.
>One thing that hasn't been pointed out is that Japan in general is a lot
>more accepting of fantasy. No one cares what you do in your private life
>so long as it doesn't affect anyone else around you. And so, that's what
>most otaku have done. They've constructed their own little private
>fantasy world where they prefer to live, as opposed to the reality where
>they've been rejected by a society that states YOU MUST FIT IN.
Okay, here we finally agree. That's definitely true. But who cares
about reality, anyway? "Reality" is whatever environment you
construct it to be. Those "little private fantasy world[s]" become
the reality for the otaku; after all, that's where their lives happen.
The other otaku whom I mentioned above who works in my company says
that he "temporarily leaves" the world in his games to do "trade" with
the real world in order to gather information, and then "returns" back
to that world when his "trading" is done. He doesn't really "live" in
what you call "reality"; instead, he re-defines "reality" to mean "the
world in his games," where his life actually happens. After all,
isn't that what "Meet Me" (a virtual Tokyo: see "Virtual Tokyo ‘Meet
Me’ goes into alpha stage | VintFalken.com" at
http://www.vintfalken.com/virtual-tokyo-meet-me-goes-into-alpha-stage/)
all about, too?
-- DekuDekuplex
--
DekuDekuplex / DekuDekuplex at Yahoo dot com
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
-- Albert Einstein
Jim diGriz
> Jim diGriz wrote:
>
>>>> Many Western fen
>>>
>>> I'm curious, is 'fen' actually a word? I do know a certain creature
>>> living
>>
>> fen as the plural for fan has been around for ages, at least in
>> science-fiction fandom.
>
> Well, outside of the afore mentionted SF series Crusade I've never heard of
> it :) And I do read and watch lots of SF.
Hmm. How many SF conventions have you been to? How many LoCs have you
written to SF Fanzines? How much fanac have you done?
JdG (not-a-SMOF)
Jim diGriz
> It's unlikely he would have since if he's never heard the word "fen" in
> that context, he's a fan, but not part of fan CULTURE, because that's
> where you'd encounter it -- going to SF (not anime) conventions, hanging
> out or talking with (mostly older-school) SF fans online, etc. You'll
Online? Online?! Luxury! Back in my day all we had was apazines. And we
liked it! Jim shakes his copy of Plokta at Sea Wasp !!SHAKES!!
JdG
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Yeah, yeah, pops, I was talking about today, so sit back in your
wheelchair and gum your applesauce.
We have copies of some pretty darn early *anime* APAs around here (how
early? Reviews of new anime include the original Mobile Suit Gundam and
Patalliro!, which makes it very early for an American-based anime APA).
Rob Kelk
You guys are, of course, going to scan those APAs so that you have
backup copies of the APAs, right?
(And maybe you'll share those scans so that there are more backup copies
of them, right?)
It wouldn't be a Good Thing if they were lost to fire or flood, right?
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2009 08:22:38 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> Jim diGriz wrote:
>>> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 10:38:58 -0400, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's unlikely he would have since if he's never heard the word "fen" in
>>>> that context, he's a fan, but not part of fan CULTURE, because that's
>>>> where you'd encounter it -- going to SF (not anime) conventions, hanging
>>>> out or talking with (mostly older-school) SF fans online, etc. You'll
>>> Online? Online?! Luxury! Back in my day all we had was apazines. And we
>>> liked it! Jim shakes his copy of Plokta at Sea Wasp !!SHAKES!!
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, yeah, pops, I was talking about today, so sit back in your
>> wheelchair and gum your applesauce.
>>
>> We have copies of some pretty darn early *anime* APAs around here (how
>> early? Reviews of new anime include the original Mobile Suit Gundam and
>> Patalliro!, which makes it very early for an American-based anime APA).
>
> You guys are, of course, going to scan those APAs so that you have
> backup copies of the APAs, right?
>
> (And maybe you'll share those scans so that there are more backup copies
> of them, right?)
>
> It wouldn't be a Good Thing if they were lost to fire or flood, right?
>
Do you really want late 70s, early 80s Patalliro! fanfiction?
Captain Nerd
Someone might, sometime. Information should be freely available,
so that the total value of the network is increased.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
There are some things that, if available, *decrease* the value of the
network. The Star Wars Holiday Special is the canonical example.
Captain Nerd
I don't know, some things should be available, if only to serve as
a warning to future generations...
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
But not on the NETWORK. Leave the directions to find the secure vaults
where you've sealed the toxic waste.
Captain Nerd
Maybe a few scenes up on Youtube rotation, kind of like using
killed or weakened viruses to build up an immunity in case of
exposure to the real thing.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
That might work, but what poor bastard are you going to sacrifice in
order to select the right scenes?
Captain Nerd
It's okay, there are no right scenes.
<RIMSHOT>
Giovanni Wassen
None, none and... none.
Doug Jacobs
> I'm going to assume everyone in this thread has seen Otaku no Video, as
> it covers both the fan and business side of things :)
The first time I watched this, it was when I was visiting a friend of mine
in Tokyo. I didn't know it was supposed to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
Also, about halfway through I realized I'd hit that point in my Japanese
studies where I could think in Japanese for extended periods of time. In
fact, even when they had the English interviews, I found myself paying more
attention to the Japanese voice overs or subtitles - they were easier to
understand.
The whole thing freaked me out pretty badly as I saw myself at a very
clear crossroads with one path leading to true otakudom. I consciously
made the decision to take the other path, and haven't regretted it.
Invid Fan
Jacobs <dja...@rawbw.com> wrote:
> Invid Fan <in...@loclanet.com> wrote:
> > I'm going to assume everyone in this thread has seen Otaku no Video, as
> > it covers both the fan and business side of things :)
>
> The first time I watched this, it was when I was visiting a friend of mine
> in Tokyo. I didn't know it was supposed to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek.
>
> Also, about halfway through I realized I'd hit that point in my Japanese
> studies where I could think in Japanese for extended periods of time. In
> fact, even when they had the English interviews, I found myself paying more
> attention to the Japanese voice overs or subtitles - they were easier to
> understand.
>
The subtitles of the Japanese voice over of the English interview has
nothing to do with what the guy is actually saying in English anyways
:)
> The whole thing freaked me out pretty badly as I saw myself at a very
> clear crossroads with one path leading to true otakudom. I consciously
> made the decision to take the other path, and haven't regretted it.
Yup. It's a show where at some point the viewer stops laughing, as they
suddenly see themselves on screen :)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
You mean, a show where the viewer suddenly leaps to his feet and shouts
**YES!!!** as he sees himself on screen.
Cassandra J. Nichols
> Doug Jacobs wrote:
>
>> The whole thing freaked me out pretty badly as I saw myself at a very
>> clear crossroads with one path leading to true otakudom. I consciously
>> made the decision to take the other path, and haven't regretted it.
>
> Yup. It's a show where at some point the viewer stops laughing, as they
> suddenly see themselves on screen :)
I didn't feel this way much during Otaku no Video, but it hit a lot
during Genshiken. I saw myself and my friends rather well-defined in
some of the characters.
--
- Cassandra J. Nichols
B Sellers
Being so ancient I don't see characters representing the aged
bibliophile who might have an interest in the study of the popular
visual culture but I enjoy most of the Genshiken in the manga and
the anime. Enough so that I finally ordered Genshiken 2 volume
1. I see some of myself in most of the characters.
I don't have the economic muscle to pursue Otakuhood. When
I did I was spending the money on motorcycles et al and of course
in those days I had subscriptions to all the SF magazines.
later
bliss