Paprika - A few quick words
Terrence Briggs
out. Some quick thoughts:
+You'll leave the theater dazzled and dazed, for better or worse.
This film, more than any of Kon's previous works, is Kon At Play.
Playing with time, space, editing, CGI, physics, size, scale, and
sensical dialogue. It *IS* a movie about dreams after all.
+Excellent Mad House animation complements superb production design.
Imagine Paranoia Agent with an even greater budget for character
animation.
+Some of the dreamlike transitions between scenes are sweet.
Characters jump through TV sets and come out of the TV cameras filming
the images. Ditto for tearing through a movie screen into the "fourth
wall" of the movie's scene, and leaping into movie posters to make the
figures talk. Solid surfaces regularly become soft as quicksand.
-As Mike D'Angelo observed, "Cinema is an inherently oneiric medium,
which makes movies that overtly traffic in dream logic the equivalent
of a hat on a hat." That works AGAINST the movie's effectiveness,
since the cast (not to mention the audience) is essentially butting in
on other people's highly subjective thought processes. That's fine if
the imagery is compelling enough, or the composition and choreography
lucid enough. To that extent, the film is only a partial success.
-Tokyo Godfathers is my favorite Kon film, because its the only one
where the characters came to the fore. (This is also true of the best
Paranoia Agent episodes I've seen) Here, as in Millenium Actress and
Perfect Blue, the situations seem to be more important than the people
experiencing them.
-There were a dozen or so walkouts from the 100-seat theater. I can
safely say that very few people will love this film, and many, many
more will get fed up with its narrative gimmickry.
-The film will be a minor arthouse failure in the U.S., like Kon's
other films, because it's so freakin' weird. American moviegoers
prefer their roller coasters to roll over familiar tracks. Paprika
features too many unconventional loops and swerves to sustain the
patience of an audience waiting for the next deliberate, foreign-
language masterpiece, intellectual aspirations be darned.
Dueeper thoughts will probably be reserved for fpsmagazine, but I
definitely want to know what you guys think.
On a side note, I got to meet Kon in person before the screening. I
offered a gaijin bow, a handshake, and a double thumbs up while
muttering "Tokyo Godfathers!" Dude then grabbed a piece of scratch
paper and spat out a gorgeous sketch of Paprika *IN 30 SECONDS* - a
gift to the DC Anime Club that I'll hopefully have on the web site
next week.
On a final note, I asked Kon's (through his translator) the Question
of the Century:
Why does he tell his stories in animation, rather than live action?
Because he can best express himself in animation. Exacly what I said
on USENET after my first viewing of Tokyo Godfathers.
Take THAT, Ray Harryhausen!
Terrence Briggs, who has a LONG story about the miracle of using Real
Player as a slideshow presenter
Peace to you...
Derek Janssen
>
> -The film will be a minor arthouse failure in the U.S., like Kon's
> other films, because it's so freakin' weird. American moviegoers
> prefer their roller coasters to roll over familiar tracks. Paprika
> features too many unconventional loops and swerves to sustain the
> patience of an audience waiting for the next deliberate, foreign-
> language masterpiece, intellectual aspirations be darned.
And because US anime fans have long since accustomed themselves to
arthouse-distributed theatrical animes being long, obscure, and
paint-dryingly humorless art-farts compared to the mainstream-thrills
that are readily available on TV-anime DVD's.
(And face it, when even Roger Ebert pans "Steamboy", somebody's hurtin'...)
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
Lee Ratner
> Terrence Briggs wrote:
>
> > -The film will be a minor arthouse failure in the U.S., like Kon's
> > other films, because it's so freakin' weird. American moviegoers
> > prefer their roller coasters to roll over familiar tracks. Paprika
> > features too many unconventional loops and swerves to sustain the
> > patience of an audience waiting for the next deliberate, foreign-
> > language masterpiece, intellectual aspirations be darned.
>
> And because US anime fans have long since accustomed themselves to
> arthouse-distributed theatrical animes being long, obscure, and
> paint-dryingly humorless art-farts compared to the mainstream-thrills
> that are readily available on TV-anime DVD's.
>
Philistines. Just because something is not mainstream or enjoyable by
Joe Six-Pack does not mean that its not good.
Terrence Briggs
> On Apr 15, 12:55 am, Derek Janssen <eja...@comcast.net> wrote:> Terrence Briggs wrote:
>
> > > -The film will be a minor arthouse failure in the U.S., like Kon's
> > > other films, because it's so freakin' weird. American moviegoers
> > > prefer their roller coasters to roll over familiar tracks. Paprika
> > > features too many unconventional loops and swerves to sustain the
> > > patience of an audience waiting for the next deliberate, foreign-
> > > language masterpiece, intellectual aspirations be darned.
>
> > And because US anime fans have long since accustomed themselves to
> > arthouse-distributed theatrical animes being long, obscure, and
> > paint-dryingly humorless art-farts compared to the mainstream-thrills
> > that are readily available on TV-anime DVD's.
Papirka is not long (90 minutes with the credits), and not humorless.
The audience roared on at least 5 separate occassions (2 of them were
anime cultural references, but what are you gonna do?), and gave the
film a 40-second ovation at the end.
Obscure, well, US anime fans dig giant robots, too. Idiosyncratic
anime wackiness isn't obscure to us. It's the reason some of us
BECAME anime fans :-)
> Derek people you said things like this used to be called
> Philistines. Just because something is not mainstream or enjoyable by
> Joe Six-Pack does not mean that its not good.
I wouldn't be so judgmental. If anything, we should understand WHY
audience react the way they do to certain fims. Despite my playful
prodding of the "animation seculars", I would never call them
"Philistines", or even ignorant (which you didn't say, but I'm making
a point).
BTW, Jerry Beck's observations of Paprika fascinatingly mirror Manohla
Dargis'. Both saw the film and waxed rhapsodic about the
possibilities of animation being exercised by Japanese filmmakers, as
opposed to the creative straitjacket that suffocates American
commercial endeavors in 2D animation:
"The Japanese continue to advance the possibilities of animation in
the feature film arena. They seem undisturbed by the CG/Mo-Cap
blockbuster-mentality that Hollywood has embraced"
Terrence Briggs, whose "morning after" opinion of Paprika keeps
drifting from "noisy mess" to "delightfully daffy"
Peace to you...
le...@my-deja.com
I think I get Derek's point. The anime fans that would make up the
arthouse audience for theatrical anime releases comprise only a small
percentage (i.e. grown-ups) of the anime audience in the U.S. The kids
that clamor for Naruto and Bleach are not going to go to the theater
to see PAPRIKA, just as they didn't go to see STEAMBOY, PERFECT BLUE,
MILLENNIUM ACTRESS, TOKYO GODFATHERS, GHOST IN THE SHELL 2, what
else...? They may have gone to see SPIRITED AWAY, but probably not
MONONOKE or HOWL'S. I don't consider any of these films "long,
obscure and paint-dryingly humorless art-farts," but then again, I'm a
grown-up used to such fare and I can see how others could consider,
say, MILLENNIUM ACTRESS, STEAMBOY, and GITS2 that way. Still, I'm
curious to know if these were the theatrical anime features Derek was
thinking of when he fashioned that description or if there are others
I've forgotten.
Re: PAPRIKA. I saw it at the New York Film Festival last fall and felt
I'd have to see it again to determine what I thought of it. I didn't
have that problem with Kon's other works (all of which I saw in
theaters, sometimes more than once). My big problem with it is the
curious notion at the heart of the film that the content of our dreams
would have such power as to impact the "real" world. I tend to go with
the school that asserts that dreams have no real meaning, but tend to
be the waste products of our consciousness, spewed out while we sleep.
So to see dream content come "alive" in an ostensibly serious science
fiction film tends to undermine my suspension of disbelief. At least
that's how I recall my reaction.
Derek Janssen
No, but when even Joe Niche-Geek doesn't like them either, you got
troubles...
Derek Janssen (look, I don't want to have to bring up "Princess
Mononoke" in theaters again, it *always* comes down to this)
eja...@comcast.net
Derek Janssen
I'm not slamming the "art" directors like Kon, I'm trying to put them in
context--Which most critics, who never usually watch this stuff outside
of theaters, don't:
Over on this continent, we have to seek out anime TV series on DVD, but
over there, of course, it plays for free on the cheap channels...Compare
this, for ex., to longtime DVD and BitTorrent fans who snub "little kids
who watch Naruto on CN".
Naturally, when a Tokyo anime director wants to his Big Artistic Epic,
he wants to do something you CAN'T see for free on TV, and will try his
lil' self-indulgent heart out to be an Animation Genius, exploring every
Epic Art film-student notion that occurs to him on a relatively
unlimited studio budget.
Now, that's fine in a country where you have anime on TV (just like,
say, Brad Bird did better movies for Pixar than he ever did for "The
Simpsons")--But it's not ALL of anime.
And at this point in the discussion, we start bringing back the days of
when there *was* no DVD, there *was* no Bleach on Cartoon Network,
anything subtitled you found on the campus-club underground, and people
considered themselves "anime experts" because they'd gone to see GitS at
the college theater.
It's been a trickle-down effect over the last fifteen years--But now we
have anime fans who can get their Naruto or Bleach anywhere they want,
and mainstream NY critics who consider themselves Anime Experts because
they went to see "Metropolis" and "Tokyo Godfathers" in a theater.
(And guess it's some kind of Taboo-game that they have to use the words
"US", "Kiddie" and "Sandbox" somewhere in their rave reviews, kind of a
code-signal.)
...And for the record, more mainstream people did go to see "Howl"'s
than went to see "Spirited" (most of whom had never seen anime before SA)--
And I seem to recall fewer people enjoyed it.
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
David Johnston
wrote:
Heck if something is enjoyable that's what means it's not good.
Derek Janssen
So, flailing yourself with a cat-o'-nine-tails because you can is
*better* than a caramel sundae, then? Oooo-kay.
Derek Janssen (little too much information, there) ;)
eja...@comcast.net
David Johnston
wrote:
No, it doesn't work the other way. Something can be both bad and
unenjoyable.
Lee Ratner
>
> BTW, Jerry Beck's observations of Paprika fascinatingly mirror Manohla
> Dargis'. Both saw the film and waxed rhapsodic about the
> possibilities of animation being exercised by Japanese filmmakers, as
> opposed to the creative straitjacket that suffocates American
> commercial endeavors in 2D animation:
>
> "The Japanese continue to advance the possibilities of animation in
> the feature film arena. They seem undisturbed by the CG/Mo-Cap
> blockbuster-mentality that Hollywood has embraced"
I think the problem with the American animation industry is a
bit more complicated
than critics think. Like, we've discussed many times, Americans tend
to possess stricter views on animation and what is and is not
appropriate for children than the Japanese. The money part of the
industry seems to be firmer in control in America than Japan. This
means that American animators can't really put as much violence and
sex and other taboo things in animation aimed at kids because parents
would not stand for it. This prevents the formation of animation aimed
at adults for the most part because kiddie animation is really
juvenile. At best we get things like the Simpson and South Park. I
love the Simpsons dearly but it would be nice to see Americans produce
mature animation that is not satire. Since the money elemenent is more
in control in America, animators can't really push the envelope unless
they win the mega-million lottery and use the money to make what they
want.
Its getting better though, we have had a few shows made by
Americans that include more complicated themes than anything produced
in the past thanks to CN and Nick. When the current crop of kids are
grown we might have a wider variety of animation.
macr...@excite.com
>
> Its getting better though, we have had a few shows made by
> Americans that include more complicated themes than anything produced
> in the past thanks to CN and Nick. When the current crop of kids are
> grown we might have a wider variety of animation.
Back in 1989 I actually thought things would be better by now (2007)
but I am actually quite disappointed at the lack of
genres in animation these days. It's always satire, and on network TV,
usually involving a family of some sort.
I figured many people in their 20s would be ready for something
different by 2007 but a lot of them have turned their back
on the idea of animation as anything more than a good laugh.
People now celebrate shows like Avatar, but IMO Batman and Gargoyles
were far more revolutionary and we've actually moved BACK from that.
There are some shows, like Broken Saints or even Boondocks, that
sometimes do something interesting and different but they're much too
far geared in one direction to be totally embraced by a general
audience. I'm still waiting for more animated action shows that are a
bit more hardcore, some fluffy animated rom-coms, some straight up
dramas... that DON'T come from Japan.
But I wouldn't hold my breath.
Derek Janssen
>
>>BTW, Jerry Beck's observations of Paprika fascinatingly mirror Manohla
>>Dargis'. Both saw the film and waxed rhapsodic about the
>>possibilities of animation being exercised by Japanese filmmakers, as
>>opposed to the creative straitjacket that suffocates American
>>commercial endeavors in 2D animation:
>>
>>"The Japanese continue to advance the possibilities of animation in
>>the feature film arena. They seem undisturbed by the CG/Mo-Cap
>>blockbuster-mentality that Hollywood has embraced"
>
>
> I think the problem with the American animation industry is a
> bit more complicated than critics think.
They're basically where WE anime fans were in 1988-'92:
Take one look at "Akira" and/or "Ghost in the Shell" for the first time,
and say, "Wow, isn't it so cool and DIFFERENT??...Not like those
dummy-head US animators, all they ever make is 'The Flintstones'! :-P "
(And that was, what, twenty years ago, and who of us even *watches*
Akira today?
Like I said: Used to be us, but...trickle-down effect. Their turn to
build up future embarrasment for themselves now.)
> This means that American animators can't really put as much violence and
> sex and other taboo things in animation aimed at kids because parents
> would not stand for it. This prevents the formation of animation aimed
> at adults for the most part because kiddie animation is really
> juvenile. At best we get things like the Simpson and South Park. I
> love the Simpsons dearly but it would be nice to see Americans produce
> mature animation that is not satire.
At least it can be said that US animation produced two schools of thought:
1) Animation for kids, and
2) Boring old self-absorbed Ralph Bakshi/John K.-ites who patted
themselves on the back for saying "Look, it's cartoon characters, only
they're cursing!--Isn't that counter-cultural, 'n stuff??"
Whereas in Japan, animation came out of the popularity and saturation of
manga comics in all genres--And the manga illustrated-storytelling
phenomenon could catch on in a country where you can't functionally read
the entire language till high school.
(Here, some would argue, "Well, what about Graphic Novels here?"
Which...ALSO came about when comic artists started saying "Look, it's
like a superhero comic, only it's all dark!--Isn't that
counter-cultural, 'n stuff??")
> Its getting better though, we have had a few shows made by
> Americans that include more complicated themes than anything produced
> in the past thanks to CN and Nick. When the current crop of kids are
> grown we might have a wider variety of animation.
The problem with CN, though [yeah, I know we've been through this on the
r.a.a.'s, just summarizing past discussions to bring the movie
cross-group up to speed], is that they also have a wishful
interpretation of What Anime Is, and tend to license only Really Hip and
Cool Action shows--
Fans have *begged* CN to license a comedy or romance series, but even if
they could, the only good ones are owned by companies trying to get
their own cable micro-networks started.
So, on one hand, you have critics thinking All Anime is Paprika, and on
the other, you have CN fans thinking All Anime is Full Metal Alchemist,
and CN-copycat networks like Nick thinking All Anime is Dragonball Z--
And in the middle, all the reasonable experienced anime fans saying,
"Look, just rent the darn DVD's, it won't kill you!"
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
Derek Janssen
>>
>>>>-The film will be a minor arthouse failure in the U.S., like Kon's
>>>>other films, because it's so freakin' weird. American moviegoers
>>>>prefer their roller coasters to roll over familiar tracks. Paprika
>>>>features too many unconventional loops and swerves to sustain the
>>>>patience of an audience waiting for the next deliberate, foreign-
>>>>language masterpiece, intellectual aspirations be darned.
>>
>>>And because US anime fans have long since accustomed themselves to
>>>arthouse-distributed theatrical animes being long, obscure, and
>>>paint-dryingly humorless art-farts compared to the mainstream-thrills
>>>that are readily available on TV-anime DVD's.
>
> Dargis'. Both saw the film and waxed rhapsodic about the
> possibilities of animation being exercised by Japanese filmmakers, as
> opposed to the creative straitjacket that suffocates American
> commercial endeavors in 2D animation:
>
> "The Japanese continue to advance the possibilities of animation in
> the feature film arena. They seem undisturbed by the CG/Mo-Cap
> blockbuster-mentality that Hollywood has embraced"
That comment wasn't specifically directed at US animation in general,
more toward rhapsodizing over how most Japanese animators see themselves
as working on their own stories--
As opposed to the "CG/Mo-cap Blockbuster mentality", meaning, that most
non-Disney studios are gridlocked at the moment into not only making
exactly what the other studios are making, but WANTING to make exactly
what the other studios are making.
I remember describing one Weinsteins release as "Warning: THIS is what
could happen to you someday, if you thought Shrek was funny."
The problem with the 3D-CGI craze is that most of Hollywood *did* think
Shrek was funny, or worse yet, had never seen CGI in their lives before
and thought it was some kind of industry model.
Whereas with Japanese animation, the genres are all over the place,
there's no one target to aim for, and animators are left trying to come
up with their own hits on their own effort--There might still be copycat
series of a current hit, but there's no ONE single gold-rush for every
studio in the business to whip up the sled dogs and start claim-jumping
everyone's pile over.
Which explains--bringing the subject back to critics gushing over boring
old noisy-mess arthouse anime--the perils of
A) worshipping somebody else's movie instead of your own, and
B) not doing your homework on Caesar before burying him OR praising him.
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
Lee Ratner
> Lee Ratner wrote:
>
>
> At least it can be said that US animation produced two schools of thought:
> 1) Animation for kids, and
This isn't necessarily bad. Most anime is for kids, the
difference is that Japanese parents tolerate much risque stuff in
their kid's cartoons than Americans do.
> 2) Boring old self-absorbed Ralph Bakshi/John K.-ites who patted
> themselves on the back for saying "Look, it's cartoon characters, only
> they're cursing!--Isn't that counter-cultural, 'n stuff??"
This is because animation aimed at kid's is really restricted.
If it was more free, the bar for adult animation would probably be
higher.
> Whereas in Japan, animation came out of the popularity and saturation of
> manga comics in all genres--And the manga illustrated-storytelling
> phenomenon could catch on in a country where you can't functionally read
> the entire language till high school.
You should know that the US comic industry used to be more
diverse until Wertham came along. We used to even have an American
equivalent of shoujo in the U.S. There were cartoons based on comics
from at least the late sixties. Restrictions on kids' tv shows ensured
that translations from comic to tv was not that good.
> (Here, some would argue, "Well, what about Graphic Novels here?"
> Which...ALSO came about when comic artists started saying "Look, it's
> like a superhero comic, only it's all dark!--Isn't that
> counter-cultural, 'n stuff??")
Most Graphic Novels, even in the early days, had nothing to do
with Super Heros. The works of Will Eisner, which could provide a good
source for adult animation, are not Superhero centric for the most
part.
> > Its getting better though, we have had a few shows made by
> > Americans that include more complicated themes than anything produced
> > in the past thanks to CN and Nick. When the current crop of kids are
> > grown we might have a wider variety of animation.
>
> The problem with CN, though [yeah, I know we've been through this on the
> r.a.a.'s, just summarizing past discussions to bring the movie
> cross-group up to speed], is that they also have a wishful
> interpretation of What Anime Is, and tend to license only Really Hip and
> Cool Action shows--
> Fans have *begged* CN to license a comedy or romance series, but even if
> they could, the only good ones are owned by companies trying to get
> their own cable micro-networks started.
>
I can't really blame CN for not airing a wider variety of
anime. The core Adult Swim audience, besides anime fans, are frat boy
types. The core CN audience are kids in elementary and middle school.
Neither group would really be interested in comedy or romance anime,
unless it was kind of close to South Park or Family Guy like Super
Milk-Chan. With kids you have the problem with the restrictions placed
on kid's anime. In Japan, its perfectly reasonble for 15 year old
Kyosuke Kasuga to recognize that Madoka Ayukawa is "mature" for her
age. His American counterpart would be more pure, chilvarous even.
Nothing wrong with chivalry but its not how most 15 year olds think,
even wimpy ones like Kyosuke.
> So, on one hand, you have critics thinking All Anime is Paprika, and on
> the other, you have CN fans thinking All Anime is Full Metal Alchemist,
> and CN-copycat networks like Nick thinking All Anime is Dragonball Z--
> And in the middle, all the reasonable experienced anime fans saying,
> "Look, just rent the darn DVD's, it won't kill you!"
>
Especially, with Net Flix. I do wish that Americans were more
aware of anime's true extent but the hand we have right now is not
really bad. I became an anime fan in 1996 and its amazing how much our
options improved since then.
Lee Ratner
> could happen to you someday, if you thought Shrek was funny."
> The problem with the 3D-CGI craze is that most of Hollywood *did* think
> Shrek was funny, or worse yet, had never seen CGI in their lives before
> and thought it was some kind of industry model.
I know, the number of Shrek imitations released are mind
boggling.
> Whereas with Japanese animation, the genres are all over the place,
> there's no one target to aim for, and animators are left trying to come
> up with their own hits on their own effort--There might still be copycat
> series of a current hit, but there's no ONE single gold-rush for every
> studio in the business to whip up the sled dogs and start claim-jumping
> everyone's pile over.
Well, we've discussed the historical reasons why US animation
is so limited and Japanese animation is broad in scope. We're probably
missing some, it can't all be industry happenstance, there are
probably some deeper cultural reasons for gap based on factors to
numerous for this group to consider. One reason why sex permeates
anime more, even kid's anime, is probably because Japanese culture has
long been more sex positive than Western culture, which was rather sex
negative until recently for the most part. Its an over simplification
but its more or less true and explains a difference.
Quick poll: Is the gap between American and Japanese comics and
animation that result of happenstance in the development of those
industries or deeper cultural reasons? Would comics in the US be as
developed as they were in Japan without Wertham or would something
else prevent the development of comics in the US? Same with animation?
Derek Janssen
>
>>The problem with CN, though [yeah, I know we've been through this on the
>>r.a.a.'s, just summarizing past discussions to bring the movie
>>cross-group up to speed], is that they also have a wishful
>>interpretation of What Anime Is, and tend to license only Really Hip and
>>Cool Action shows--
>>Fans have *begged* CN to license a comedy or romance series, but even if
>>they could, the only good ones are owned by companies trying to get
>>their own cable micro-networks started.
>
> I can't really blame CN for not airing a wider variety of
> anime. The core Adult Swim audience, besides anime fans, are frat boy
> types. The core CN audience are kids in elementary and middle school.
> Neither group would really be interested in comedy or romance anime,
> unless it was kind of close to South Park or Family Guy like Super
> Milk-Chan.
Then again, with CN, you have the question of "Is it on because they
watch it, or do they watch it because it's on?"
I'm still convinced that Azumanga Daioh has enough webcomic-style appeal
to be universally quirky (a sort of "Anti-Super Milk-Chan") with no
explanations necessary--
And once ADV can get their industry-breakout ball rolling again on Sgt.
Frog, you could have subjected CN fans to SMART mind-blowing insanity,
clean and sober.
And even the network that invented "digital bikinis" is too caught up in
individual censorship concerns to consider Ranma 1/2 as a cult
comedy...And instead left it up to Williams Street to make old dusty
90's jokes about it attracting "geek fans", just because a lotta otaku
like to dress up as Shampoo at conventions.
They COULD have been good CN considerations, if ADV and Viz weren't so
busy trying to start their own little jerkwater-town networks because
they were tired of waiting for CN to call them about broadcast-royalty
deals.
>>So, on one hand, you have critics thinking All Anime is Paprika, and on
>>the other, you have CN fans thinking All Anime is Full Metal Alchemist,
>>and CN-copycat networks like Nick thinking All Anime is Dragonball Z--
>>And in the middle, all the reasonable experienced anime fans saying,
>>"Look, just rent the darn DVD's, it won't kill you!"
>>
> Especially, with Net Flix. I do wish that Americans were more
> aware of anime's true extent but the hand we have right now is not
> really bad. I became an anime fan in 1996 and its amazing how much our
> options improved since then.
Trying not to get back into that old argument again, but anime's biggest
enemy is its own "fans" that try to win converts through boring old
theatrical animes, just because they're either easily impressed or think
it's "easier" for other mainstream fans to start with it...Or both.
There's an amazing more amount of anime DVD on Netflix today than there
was even in 1999; we should graduate to considering theatrical anime the
same 1% "fringe" industry that the Japanese themselves consider it.
Derek Jansen
eja...@comcast.net
Antonio E. Gonzalez
wrote:
Don't bother with him; retarDerek has the distinct belief that if he
doesn't like something, it's impossible for others to like it!
--
- ReFlex76
- "Let's beat the terrorists with our most powerful weapon . . . hot
girl-on-girl action!"
- "The difference between young and old is the difference between
looking forward to your next birthday, and dreading it!"
- Jesus Christ - The original hippie!
Terrence Briggs
So... you don't think that Japanese animators are telling more
ambitious, mature stories than their American counterparts?
By "more", I mean, is there a greater "quantity" of mature, ambitious
stories being told by Japanese animators?
If you don't want to go there, do you at least agree that Paprika is
symbolic of the kind of film that no major American studio would DARE
to animate right now?
Do you walk out of Paprika saying, "Nah, I'd rather watch Cyber
Chase"?
Do you walk out of Paprika saying "Nah, I'd rather watch Azumanga
Daioh"?
> ...And for the record, more mainstream people did go to see "Howl"'s
> than went to see "Spirited" (most of whom had never seen anime before SA)--
> And I seem to recall fewer people enjoyed it.
I don't recall HMC's box office total being significantly higher than
SA. I can't say for sure that HMC's audience wasn't just composed of
SA converts and anime fans.
> Derek Janssen
> eja...@comcast.net
Terrence Briggs, who can't believe he dropped Cyber Chase into an art
film thread.
Peace to you...
Derek Janssen
>
>>And at this point in the discussion, we start bringing back the days of
>>when there *was* no DVD, there *was* no Bleach on Cartoon Network,
>>anything subtitled you found on the campus-club underground, and people
>>considered themselves "anime experts" because they'd gone to see GitS at
>>the college theater.
>>It's been a trickle-down effect over the last fifteen years--But now we
>>have anime fans who can get their Naruto or Bleach anywhere they want,
>>and mainstream NY critics who consider themselves Anime Experts because
>>they went to see "Metropolis" and "Tokyo Godfathers" in a theater.
>>(And guess it's some kind of Taboo-game that they have to use the words
>>"US", "Kiddie" and "Sandbox" somewhere in their rave reviews, kind of a
>>code-signal.)
>
> So... you don't think that Japanese animators are telling more
> ambitious, mature stories than their American counterparts?
No, I just don't throw my big white gaijin arms around it and horsewhip
the local product because of it, in my newfound fervor.
> If you don't want to go there, do you at least agree that Paprika is
> symbolic of the kind of film that no major American studio would DARE
> to animate right now?
You might want to rephrase that question... ;)
> Do you walk out of Paprika saying, "Nah, I'd rather watch Cyber
> Chase"?
(I tape CyberChase every afternoon--
It's the last surviving bit of Educational left on PBS weekdays,
struggling among the preschool Arthur wasteland...Geez, I feel old for
wanting "Wishbone" back.)
> Do you walk out of Paprika saying "Nah, I'd rather watch Azumanga
> Daioh"?
...HELL, YES!!! >: 0
>>...And for the record, more mainstream people did go to see "Howl"'s
>>than went to see "Spirited" (most of whom had never seen anime before SA)--
>>And I seem to recall fewer people enjoyed it.
>
> I don't recall HMC's box office total being significantly higher than
> SA. I can't say for sure that HMC's audience wasn't just composed of
> SA converts and anime fans.
I can remember the HMC audience was divided into two distinct types:
Those who hadn't heard of Miyazaki or anime before SA, who thought HMC
was a "dazzling, inventive fairytale"...
And those who HAD heard of Miyazaki before SA, and groaned that Hayao
threw the book out the window, assembled the movie out of spare scraps
from all his old films, and was pretty much coasting on fumes for this one.
Derek Janssen (which brings us back to the "educated judgment" thing)
eja...@comcast.net
Terrence Briggs
> Terrence Briggs wrote:
>
> >>And at this point in the discussion, we start bringing back the days of
> >>when there *was* no DVD, there *was* no Bleach on Cartoon Network,
> >>anything subtitled you found on the campus-club underground, and people
> >>considered themselves "anime experts" because they'd gone to see GitS at
> >>the college theater.
> >>It's been a trickle-down effect over the last fifteen years--But now we
> >>have anime fans who can get their Naruto or Bleach anywhere they want,
> >>and mainstream NY critics who consider themselves Anime Experts because
> >>they went to see "Metropolis" and "Tokyo Godfathers" in a theater.
> >>(And guess it's some kind of Taboo-game that they have to use the words
> >>"US", "Kiddie" and "Sandbox" somewhere in their rave reviews, kind of a
> >>code-signal.)
>
> > So... you don't think that Japanese animators are telling more
> > ambitious, mature stories than their American counterparts?
>
> No, I just don't throw my big white gaijin arms around it and horsewhip
> the local product because of it, in my newfound fervor.
In all fairness to the local product, I defended all three of this
year's Best Animated Feature nominees against horsewhippers. In
fairness to Paprika, if it had been eligible last year, I would have
have put it in Cars' spot. But that's just me.
> > If you don't want to go there, do you at least agree that Paprika is
> > symbolic of the kind of film that no major American studio would DARE
> > to animate right now?
>
> You might want to rephrase that question... ;)
I'm open to suggestions. And please put on your tact hat before
rephrasing, please :-)
<snip>
> > Do you walk out of Paprika saying "Nah, I'd rather watch Azumanga
> > Daioh"?
>
> ...HELL, YES!!! >: 0
The point I'm making is that AD aims far lower on the scale of
narrative ambition that Paprika. I don't walk out of, say, Akira
Kurosawa's Ran and say "I'd rather watch Mulan". By the same token, I
wouldn't demand that Japanese art film newbies stick with lighter,
less challenging Japanese TV shows, because they didn't like Paprika.
You don't advance the art form by spitting on ANY attempt to be
unconventional, serious, or unconventionally serious. And, to wit,
you don't advance the art form by dismissing conventionally told grade-
schooler-friendly stories that are at least well-crafted (i.e., Toy
Story, Incredibles, Finding Nemo).
My argument, as always, is that we have PLENTY of well-crafted,
conventionally told, grade-schooler friendly stories on this side of
the Pacific. Would any of my North American brothers and sisters care
to break convention, for a change? "Gotta grow up sometime", goes the
theme song to Swan's Crossing :P
> >>...And for the record, more mainstream people did go to see "Howl"'s
> >>than went to see "Spirited" (most of whom had never seen anime before SA)--
> >>And I seem to recall fewer people enjoyed it.
>
> > I don't recall HMC's box office total being significantly higher than
> > SA. I can't say for sure that HMC's audience wasn't just composed of
> > SA converts and anime fans.
>
> I can remember the HMC audience was divided into two distinct types:
> Those who hadn't heard of Miyazaki or anime before SA, who thought HMC
> was a "dazzling, inventive fairytale"...
> And those who HAD heard of Miyazaki before SA, and groaned that Hayao
> threw the book out the window, assembled the movie out of spare scraps
> from all his old films, and was pretty much coasting on fumes for this one.
This one sounds like Derek Janssen :-)
Who readOn Apr 18, 11:15 pm, Derek Janssen <eja...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Terrence Briggs wrote:
>
> >>And at this point in the discussion, we start bringing back the days of
> >>when there *was* no DVD, there *was* no Bleach on Cartoon Network,
> >>anything subtitled you found on the campus-club underground, and people
> >>considered themselves "anime experts" because they'd gone to see GitS at
> >>the college theater.
> >>It's been a trickle-down effect over the last fifteen years--But now we
> >>have anime fans who can get their Naruto or Bleach anywhere they want,
> >>and mainstream NY critics who consider themselves Anime Experts because
> >>they went to see "Metropolis" and "Tokyo Godfathers" in a theater.
> >>(And guess it's some kind of Taboo-game that they have to use the words
> >>"US", "Kiddie" and "Sandbox" somewhere in their rave reviews, kind of a
> >>code-signal.)
>
> > So... you don't think that Japanese animators are telling more
> > ambitious, mature stories than their American counterparts?
>
> No, I just don't throw my big white gaijin arms around it and horsewhip
> the local product because of it, in my newfound fervor.
In all fairness to the local product, I defended all three of this
year's Best Animated Feature nominees against horsewhippers. In
fairness to Paprika, if it had been eligible last year, I would have
have put it in Cars' spot. But that's just me.
> > If you don't want to go there, do you at least agree that Paprika is
> > symbolic of the kind of film that no major American studio would DARE
> > to animate right now?
>
> You might want to rephrase that question... ;)
I'm open to suggestions. And please put on your tact hat before
rephrasing, please :-)
<snip>
> > Do you walk out of Paprika saying "Nah, I'd rather watch Azumanga
> > Daioh"?
>
> ...HELL, YES!!! >: 0
The point I'm making is that AD aims far lower on the scale of
narrative ambition that Paprika. I don't walk out of, say, Akira
Kurosawa's Ran and say "I'd rather watch Mulan". By the same token, I
wouldn't demand that Japanese art film newbies stick with lighter,
less challenging Japanese TV shows, because they didn't like Paprika.
You don't advance the art form by spitting on ANY attempt to be
unconventional, serious, or unconventionally serious.
> >>...And for the record, more mainstream people did go to see "Howl"'s
> >>than went to see "Spirited" (most of whom had never seen anime before SA)--
> >>And I seem to recall fewer people enjoyed it.
>
> > I don't recall HMC's box office total being significantly higher than
> > SA. I can't say for sure that HMC's audience wasn't just composed of
> > SA converts and anime fans.
>
> I can remember the HMC audience was divided into two distinct types:
> Those who hadn't heard of Miyazaki or anime before SA, who thought HMC
> was a "dazzling, inventive fairytale"...
The SA converts, then.
> And those who HAD heard of Miyazaki before SA, and groaned that Hayao
> threw the book out the window, assembled the movie out of spare scraps
> from all his old films, and was pretty much coasting on fumes for this one.
This one sounds like Derek Janssen :-)
Dude, how many people read that book? How many of them heard of
Miyazaki? I'm betting you, and about 9 other people.
Obviously, I belong to a hypothetical third group.
> Derek Janssen (which brings us back to the "educated judgment" thing)
> eja...@comcast.net
I'm afraid that Paprika's North American audience will be too small
educate anyone on anything. You can't start a movement to win the
hearts of minds of the masses with a Sunday conversation club. "So
who did the homework last night? Anyone?"
Terrence Briggs, who figures the June launch won't help. Who wants to
compete with Shrek 3?
Peace to you...
Derek Janssen
> <snip>
>
>>>Do you walk out of Paprika saying "Nah, I'd rather watch Azumanga
>>>Daioh"?
>>
>>...HELL, YES!!! >: 0
>
> The point I'm making is that AD aims far lower on the scale of
> narrative ambition that Paprika. I don't walk out of, say, Akira
> Kurosawa's Ran and say "I'd rather watch Mulan". By the same token, I
> wouldn't demand that Japanese art film newbies stick with lighter,
> less challenging Japanese TV shows, because they didn't like Paprika.
And yet, AD, on a computer-produced TV budget, can give us more
appealing and approachable insight into quirky human character in thirty
seconds through one of Osaka's Deep Thoughts or Sakaki's kitten-chomps,
than Kon can through 90 minutes of cold, impersonal Weird Eye-Popping
Artistic Surrealism with a whole major studio behind him...
But then, you don't see too much laid-back humor in the "art" theatrical
output, anyway.
> You don't advance the art form by spitting on ANY attempt to be
> unconventional, serious, or unconventionally serious. And, to wit,
> you don't advance the art form by dismissing conventionally told grade-
> schooler-friendly stories that are at least well-crafted (i.e., Toy
> Story, Incredibles, Finding Nemo).
And yet we do anyway, like any country that shows them on TV:
We may make fun of people who want to buy "Thundercats" on DVD because
they remembered it as kids, but that's nothing compared to most working
employed Japanese making of fans who still watch Sailor Moon or
Doraemon, or who gush over what a classic that darn Urusei Yatsura is,
coming back for a twenty-five year revival...But, of course, the
Japanese would've thought a Powerpuff Girls Movie would've been a big deal.
Thing is, THEY'VE heard of the local TV product, and they're sick of it
because it didn't have the mystique created by trying to seek it out.
The grass is always greener, etc., and a prophet is always art-snubbed
in his own hometown.
>>I can remember the HMC audience was divided into two distinct types:
>>Those who hadn't heard of Miyazaki or anime before SA, who thought HMC
>>was a "dazzling, inventive fairytale"...
>>And those who HAD heard of Miyazaki before SA, and groaned that Hayao
>>threw the book out the window, assembled the movie out of spare scraps
>>from all his old films, and was pretty much coasting on fumes for this one.
>
> Dude, how many people read that book? How many of them heard of
> Miyazaki? I'm betting you, and about 9 other people.
Even Roger Ebert--and let's underline that phrase for a moment, folks,
EVEN ROGER EBERT, who hadn't been largely familiar with Miyazaki's half
of the arthouse-anime market before Mononoke got the press and Spirited
got the Oscar--complained that Hayao seemed to be missing from the
movie, phoning it in long-distance, and panned that there wasn't much
point to whatever the heck was going on.
...Y'know, something's just *wrong* when that happens. Gotta check the
sparkplugs.
> I'm afraid that Paprika's North American audience will be too small
> educate anyone on anything. You can't start a movement to win the
> hearts of minds of the masses with a Sunday conversation club. "So
> who did the homework last night? Anyone?"
The only bee in my bonnet from the beginning were the theatrical nuts
who thought the hi-profile "Art" product was "all" of anime, and don't
seek out the "junk" being produced for TV, because someone forgot to
tell them it was out there.
(Or, as we always metaphor at this point, "Imagine wondering what
British Televison was, being sat down and forced to watch all of
Masterpiece Theater in its entirety, and never being told that Doctor
Who or Monty Python ever existed.")
And when Sony puts Paprika out with a tagline implying "THIS is Anime",
it don't help the image none, either.
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
Derek Janssen
>
>>>Do you walk out of Paprika saying "Nah, I'd rather watch Azumanga
>>>Daioh"?
>>
>>...HELL, YES!!! >: 0
>
> The point I'm making is that AD aims far lower on the scale of
> narrative ambition that Paprika.
Still, when you compare Paprika back-to-back with Azumanga's "New Year's
Dream" episode, you notice that it only took 22 minutes for AD to do the
same "David Lynch-y real-dream surrealism" plot--
Ten, if you just count Sakaki's dream. :)
Derek Janssen (Chiyo, eat your tomatoes...)
eja...@comcast.net
Terrence Briggs
> > You don't advance the art form by spitting on ANY attempt to be
> > unconventional, serious, or unconventionally serious. And, to wit,
> > you don't advance the art form by dismissing conventionally told grade-
> > schooler-friendly stories that are at least well-crafted (i.e., Toy
> > Story, Incredibles, Finding Nemo).
>
> And yet we do anyway, like any country that shows them on TV:
> We may make fun of people who want to buy "Thundercats" on DVD because
> they remembered it as kids, but that's nothing compared to most working
> employed Japanese making of fans who still watch Sailor Moon or
> Doraemon, or who gush over what a classic that darn Urusei Yatsura is,
> coming back for a twenty-five year revival...But, of course, the
> Japanese would've thought a Powerpuff Girls Movie would've been a big deal.
>
> Thing is, THEY'VE heard of the local TV product, and they're sick of it
> because it didn't have the mystique created by trying to seek it out.
> The grass is always greener, etc., and a prophet is always art-snubbed
> in his own hometown.
The grass isn't ALWAYS greener. I don't see a lot of Americans
clamoring for, say, European or Indian animation. Me, I'll watch
anything, but I'm not snubbing the American product because the
foreign stuff looks ~MYSTERIOUSLY INTRIGUING~. Neither are the
critics who saw the Ghost in the Shell flicks and Kon previous
movies. In short, some of them are wild-eyed about this newfangled
anime thing because they're seeing potential that they never saw while
watching, say, Cars.
> >>I can remember the HMC audience was divided into two distinct types:
> >>Those who hadn't heard of Miyazaki or anime before SA, who thought HMC
> >>was a "dazzling, inventive fairytale"...
> >>And those who HAD heard of Miyazaki before SA, and groaned that Hayao
> >>threw the book out the window, assembled the movie out of spare scraps
> >>from all his old films, and was pretty much coasting on fumes for this one.
>
> > Dude, how many people read that book? How many of them heard of
> > Miyazaki? I'm betting you, and about 9 other people.
>
> Even Roger Ebert--and let's underline that phrase for a moment, folks,
> EVEN ROGER EBERT, who hadn't been largely familiar with Miyazaki's half
> of the arthouse-anime market before Mononoke got the press and Spirited
> got the Oscar--complained that Hayao seemed to be missing from the
> movie, phoning it in long-distance, and panned that there wasn't much
> point to whatever the heck was going on.
Yes, but he didn't complain about "straying from the book" :-)
> ...Y'know, something's just *wrong* when that happens. Gotta check the
> sparkplugs.
>
> > I'm afraid that Paprika's North American audience will be too small
> > educate anyone on anything. You can't start a movement to win the
> > hearts of minds of the masses with a Sunday conversation club. "So
> > who did the homework last night? Anyone?"
>
> The only bee in my bonnet from the beginning were the theatrical nuts
> who thought the hi-profile "Art" product was "all" of anime, and don't
> seek out the "junk" being produced for TV, because someone forgot to
> tell them it was out there.
Who said that? Dargis' comment wasn't saying that ALL Japanese
animation was "reaching for the stars" - only that it's (at least)
trying, which American filmmakers don't see to be doing.
Is there any American release (limited or otherwise), where a
miseducated film critic can look to say "Hey, the Americans ARE going
for more mature audiences!"
> (Or, as we always metaphor at this point, "Imagine wondering what
> British Televison was, being sat down and forced to watch all of
> Masterpiece Theater in its entirety, and never being told that Doctor
> Who or Monty Python ever existed.")
>
> And when Sony puts Paprika out with a tagline implying "THIS is Anime",
> it don't help the image none, either.
At least the Japanese are producing the occassional Masterpiece
Theater. Americans studios seem to be happy with sitcoms and Saturday
Morning action thrills. Where's the animated, say, Sopranos or West
Wing. Does everything have to be Star Wars or Bob Hope "Road to"
flicks?
Terrence Briggs, speaking metaphorically, or course
Peace to you...
> Derek Janssen
> eja...@comcast.net
Galen Musbach
<mrman1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Is there any American release (limited or otherwise), where a
>miseducated film critic can look to say "Hey, the Americans ARE going
>for more mature audiences!"
Lady Death?
Sin City?
Batman: Revenge of the Joker?
-Galen
Redkanary
> On 22 Apr 2007 11:05:13 -0700, Terrence Briggs
>Is there any American release (limited or otherwise), where a
>miseducated film critic can look to say "Hey, the Americans ARE going
>for more mature audiences!"
"A Scanner Darkly" is the first one that comes to mind, which had lots
of indie buzz and pretty decent reviews. However, the mo-cap style
was so far removed from the traditional conceptions of animation, I
think most people refused to think of it as animated.
- Red
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
Have you watched those? Just checking. ;-)
Laters. =)
Stan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ LostRune+sig [at] UofR [dot] net
| ( _| | http://www.uofr.net/~lostrune/
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
Derek Janssen
> Sun, 22 Apr 2007 2:59pm-0400, Galen Musbach <musb...@comcast.net>:
>
>> On 22 Apr 2007 11:05:13 -0700, Terrence Briggs
>> <mrman1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Is there any American release (limited or otherwise), where a
>>> miseducated film critic can look to say "Hey, the Americans ARE going
>>> for more mature audiences!"
>>
>> Lady Death?
>>
>> Sin City?
>>
>> Batman: Revenge of the Joker?
>
> Have you watched those? Just checking. ;-)
Well, he did say "miseducated" critics--
Which would certainly cover raves over the 90's Batman feature-lengths
and the HBO "Spawn".
(Remember when we had "Spawn is American anime!" threads, 'cause like,
it was dark and had cusswords in it?)
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
Galen Musbach
<LostRu...@UofR.SlamSpam.net> wrote:
>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 2:59pm-0400, Galen Musbach <musb...@comcast.net>:
>
>> On 22 Apr 2007 11:05:13 -0700, Terrence Briggs
>> <mrman1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Is there any American release (limited or otherwise), where a
>>> miseducated film critic can look to say "Hey, the Americans ARE going
>>> for more mature audiences!"
>>
>> Lady Death?
>>
>> Sin City?
>>
>> Batman: Revenge of the Joker?
>>
>
>Have you watched those? Just checking. ;-)
Not a one, in fact.
-Galen
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
I was just curious because those don't seem like your type.
Lee Ratner
in the box office and Disney vowed never to do an experiment like
Fantasia again. Otherwise, the works of Ralph Bakshi are the closest
Americans came to animation for mature audiences, even though most of
his work is crass just like South Park and Family Guy. There isn't
going to be an American equivalent of Kon or Oishii until American
kids can watch what Japanese kids watch without their parents
exploding. We need to broaden animation for children before we get our
Kon.
Derek Janssen
>
>>Is there any American release (limited or otherwise), where a
>>miseducated film critic can look to say "Hey, the Americans ARE going
>>for more mature audiences!"
>
> Fantasia was suppossed to be for adults but it was such a failure
> in the box office and Disney vowed never to do an experiment like
> Fantasia again.
(People...Think carefully for a moment:
You don't REALLY want me to post every long, sad historical detail of
how RKO chopped the movie into clueless incoherence when Walt sold the
wide-release rights off to pay the bills on his new stereo system, do you?
No. Of course you don't. We're educated people, we know how to look up
the facts for ourselves, and we don't blindly follow urban legends that
even Walt himself believed for 67 years.)
> Otherwise, the works of Ralph Bakshi are the closest
> Americans came to animation for mature audiences, even though most of
> his work is crass just like South Park and Family Guy.
To make maturity, you must first find it in yourself--
All three have a long way to go on that one.
> There isn't
> going to be an American equivalent of Kon or Oishii until American
> kids can watch what Japanese kids watch without their parents
> exploding.
Or until American adults can watch what Japanese kids watch without
Japanese kids exploding. [<- Akira ref] :)
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
Juan F. Lara
Lee Ratner <LBRa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Fantasia was suppossed to be for adults but it was such a failure
>in the box office and Disney vowed never to do an experiment like
>Fantasia again.
IMHO, "The Three Caballeros" has scenes that rival "Fantasia" in terms of
experimentation. And the last 15 minutes or so of that movie carries out that
experiment more successfully.
- Juan F. Lara
Derek Janssen
And, unlike Fantasia--which had run for two years in its roadhouse
engagements--it DIDN'T have RKO chop a half hour out of it without
Walt's consent and saddle it with dopey advertising campaigns, either! :)
Derek Janssen (still, that 3Cab ending "acid trip" is better talked
about than watched >_< )
eja...@comcast.net
Anim8rFSK
Redkanary <redk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
It's not even mocrap. And, yes, I refuse to consider it animated. Or
watchable.
Terrence Briggs
>
> >> On 22 Apr 2007 11:05:13 -0700, Terrence Briggs
>
> >>> Is there any American release (limited or otherwise), where a
> >>> miseducated film critic can look to say "Hey, the Americans ARE going
> >>> for more mature audiences!"
>
> >> Lady Death?
>
> >> Sin City?
>
> >> Batman: Revenge of the Joker?
Sorry, guys. I meant to say "recent" American animated films.
> > Have you watched those? Just checking. ;-)
>
> Well, he did say "miseducated" critics--
> Which would certainly cover raves over the 90's Batman feature-lengths
The only animated theatrical release was Mask of the Phantasm.
Obviously, it bombed. Siskel & Ebert didn't even review it until the
video came out. (Siskel's lines was something like, "We didn't review
it in theathers, and we made a big mistake, because it's terrific!").
I believe Entertainment Weekly and the Washington Post stuck third-
tier film critics with the job of doing the print reviews :P
> and the HBO "Spawn".
Not released theatrically, so I can't point film critics towards it.
It's nice to send them videos, all the same. They watch Sopranos,
don't they?
> (Remember when we had "Spawn is American anime!" threads, 'cause like,
> it was dark and had cusswords in it?)
I know dudes who think Transformers (not to mention Avatar) is anime,
even though they're awfully light and free of profanity :-)
> Derek Janssen
> eja...@comcast.net
Terrence Briggs, reading Edelstein's Spiderman 3 recommendation. Why
did everyone love Doc Ock so much?!
Peace to you...
Derek Janssen
>>
>>>>>Is there any American release (limited or otherwise), where a
>>>>>miseducated film critic can look to say "Hey, the Americans ARE going
>>>>>for more mature audiences!"
>>
>
> Sorry, guys. I meant to say "recent" American animated films.
>
>>>Have you watched those? Just checking. ;-)
>>
>>Well, he did say "miseducated" critics--
>>Which would certainly cover raves over the 90's Batman feature-lengths
>
> The only animated theatrical release was Mask of the Phantasm.
> Obviously, it bombed. Siskel & Ebert didn't even review it until the
> video came out. (Siskel's lines was something like, "We didn't review
> it in theathers, and we made a big mistake, because it's terrific!").
> I believe Entertainment Weekly and the Washington Post stuck third-
> tier film critics with the job of doing the print reviews :P
Think I've already re-posted this vintage '97 Google flashback on other
groups, but dang, it's worth repeating: ^_^
http://tinyurl.com/yrkh4j
(Although, FTR, I remember Warner adding side images of Bruce, the girl,
and the Joker to the release poster at the time, which don't appear on
the "official" poster art and would spoil the joke.)
> Terrence Briggs, reading Edelstein's Spiderman 3 recommendation. Why
> did everyone love Doc Ock so much?!
HE (ie. Alfred Molina) was good, plausible, and brought the action plot;
the "Sad-Sack Peter" subplot wasn't, and didn't--
Better a drop of water in the desert. :)
Derek Janssen
eja...@comcast.net
Terrence Briggs
> Terrence Briggs wrote:
>
> >>>>>Is there any American release (limited or otherwise), where a
> >>>>>miseducated film critic can look to say "Hey, the Americans ARE going
> >>>>>for more mature audiences!"
>
> >>>>Batman: Revenge of the Joker?
>
> > Sorry, guys. I meant to say "recent" American animated films.
>
> >>>Have you watched those? Just checking. ;-)
>
> >>Well, he did say "miseducated" critics--
> >>Which would certainly cover raves over the 90's Batman feature-lengths
>
> > The only animated theatrical release was Mask of the Phantasm.
> > Obviously, it bombed. Siskel & Ebert didn't even review it until the
> > video came out. (Siskel's lines was something like, "We didn't review
> > it in theathers, and we made a big mistake, because it's terrific!").
> > I believe Entertainment Weekly and the Washington Post stuck third-
> > tier film critics with the job of doing the print reviews :P
>
> Think I've already re-posted this vintage '97 Google flashback on other
>
> (Although, FTR, I remember Warner adding side images of Bruce, the girl,
> and the Joker to the release poster at the time, which don't appear on
> the "official" poster art and would spoil the joke.)
>
> > Terrence Briggs, reading Edelstein's Spiderman 3 recommendation. Why
> > did everyone love Doc Ock so much?!
>
> HE (ie. Alfred Molina) was good, plausible, and brought the action plot;
Everything I loved about Molina was in Act 1. Doc chatting with his
wife and Peter Parker was great. Doc chatting to himself with his
mechnical arms was not. Pretty much everything after the Evil Dead -
esque hospital scene was dead to me, with respect to his arc.
> the "Sad-Sack Peter" subplot wasn't, and didn't--
> Better a drop of water in the desert. :)
The action scenes were good, at least, screaming chicks and all :-)
> Derek Janssen
> eja...@comcast.net
Terrence Briggs, can't get discount tickets to Spiderman 3. Maybe I
should wait for video?
Peace to you...
Terrence Briggs
> Terrence Briggs wrote:
>
> >>>>>Is there any American release (limited or otherwise), where a
> >>>>>miseducated film critic can look to say "Hey, the Americans ARE going
> >>>>>for more mature audiences!"
>
> >>>>Batman: Revenge of the Joker?
>
> > Sorry, guys. I meant to say "recent" American animated films.
>
> >>>Have you watched those? Just checking. ;-)
>
> >>Well, he did say "miseducated" critics--
> >>Which would certainly cover raves over the 90's Batman feature-lengths
>
> > The only animated theatrical release was Mask of the Phantasm.
> > Obviously, it bombed. Siskel & Ebert didn't even review it until the
> > video came out. (Siskel's lines was something like, "We didn't review
> > it in theathers, and we made a big mistake, because it's terrific!").
> > I believe Entertainment Weekly and the Washington Post stuck third-
> > tier film critics with the job of doing the print reviews :P
>
> Think I've already re-posted this vintage '97 Google flashback on other
>
> (Although, FTR, I remember Warner adding side images of Bruce, the girl,
> and the Joker to the release poster at the time, which don't appear on
> the "official" poster art and would spoil the joke.)
Okay, that was a pretty funny post. Now try that with the
Transformers posters :-)
The only thing worse than overrevealing trailers and posters is
underrevealing posters and trailers. Gee, just wave the word
"transfomers" in front of us fanboys, and score $70 million just for
showing up!
Terrence Briggs, would've loved to see World's Finest on a big screen
Peace to you...
Anim8rFSK
Terrence Briggs <mrman1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Terrence Briggs, can't get discount tickets to Spiderman 3. Maybe I
> should wait for video?
The "Discount" better involve them giving YOU money. And free snacks.
And a hot date. And maybe a video iPod so you have something to watch
while they movie is playing.
--
This message came from the number one poster
on rec.arts.tv for the month of May 2007,
as officially certified by Ken from Chicago.
Galen Musbach
wrote:
snip
>
>The "Discount" better involve them giving YOU money. And free snacks.
>And a hot date. And maybe a video iPod so you have something to watch
>while they movie is playing.
You're in a movie theatre with a hot date, and your
wish is for a iPod? Do they record, or something?
-Galen
Anim8rFSK
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> In article <mo9353tn01e2221nm...@4ax.com>,
> Galen Musbach <musb...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 21 May 2007 06:16:14 -0700, Anim8rFSK <ANIM...@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>> snip
>>>
>>> The "Discount" better involve them giving YOU money. And free snacks.
>>> And a hot date. And maybe a video iPod so you have something to watch
>>> while they movie is playing.
>>
>> You're in a movie theatre with a hot date, and your
>> wish is for a iPod? Do they record, or something?
>>
>
> hah!
>
Maybe he wants to show her his "sketches" saved in his iPod
to get her in the mood. ;-)
Terrence Briggs
> In article <1179697720.779591.226...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> Terrence Briggs <mrman1mrm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Terrence Briggs, can't get discount tickets to Spiderman 3. Maybe I
> > should wait for video?
>
> The "Discount" better involve them giving YOU money. And free snacks.
> And a hot date. And maybe a video iPod so you have something to watch
> while they movie is playing.
Ha! You're mean and honest. I'll let you know how much I hate the
film if I can sneak in after a Paprika screening. :-)
(Oh, stop. It's all Sony money.)
> This message came from the number one poster
> on rec.arts.tv for the month of May 2007,
> as officially certified by Ken from Chicago.
Terrence Briggs, who'll probably watch movies on his PSP during
Spiderman 3
Peace to you...
Eric Schwartz
> Maybe he wants to show her his "sketches" saved in his iPod
> to get her in the mood. ;-)
Etchings. You show her your *etchings*, not sketches. Kids today, I
dunno...
-=Eric
Anim8rFSK
<87myzug...@beorn.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-shoot-me>,
Eric Schwartz <emsc...@pobox.com> wrote:
Yeah, but you can get an iPod laser etched!