Well, congratulations -- sounds like you guys won another company's full demise...
Starcade
happy...
4Kids, in a corporate filing, disputes the charges in the lawsuit
filed by Yu-Gi-Oh's owners in Japan, but is prepared to declare
bankruptcy protection...
Congratulations -- you got another company out of business...
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-03-31/4kids-files-shareholders-report-on-yu-gi-oh-lawsuit
Mike
Bobby Clark
"Starcade" <darkst...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e64cc7f7-2f47-4475...@w7g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Mike, they did it by trying to cheat the Japanese out of rightfully due
royaltys. Nothing more. If anything the Japanese will be less likely to
license here due to 4Kids stealing from them.
Bobby
Bobbie Sellers
Don't bother Mikey with the facts now, if 4Kids goes under someone will
take its place. Mike attacks Anime fans as thieves
all the time. He never attacked companies like 4Kids before as
he assumed that they were honest and maybe they are, all we have
is the Japanese saying they are owed money. A court or two or
more will be making the decisions. We should let them do it.
and Starcade belongs on your killfile, it will save you
lots of aggravation.
later
bliss
rincewind
wrote:
> On 03/31/2011 07:29 PM, Bobby Clark wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:e64cc7f7-2f47-4475...@w7g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> >> And this one is going to make A LOT of anime thiev... erm, _fans_
> >> happy...
>
> >> 4Kids, in a corporate filing, disputes the charges in the lawsuit
> >> filed by Yu-Gi-Oh's owners in Japan, but is prepared to declare
> >> bankruptcy protection...
>
> >> Congratulations -- you got another company out of business...
>
>
> >> Mike
>
> > Mike, they did it by trying to cheat the Japanese out of rightfully due
> > royaltys. Nothing more. If anything the Japanese will be less likely to
> > license here due to 4Kids stealing from them.
>
> > Bobby
>
> Don't bother Mikey with the facts now, if 4Kids goes under someone will
> take its place. Mike attacks Anime fans as thieves
> all the time. He never attacked companies like 4Kids before as
> he assumed that they were honest and maybe they are, all we have
> is the Japanese saying they are owed money. A court or two or
> more will be making the decisions. We should let them do it.
> and Starcade belongs on your killfile, it will save you
> lots of aggravation.
>
> later
> bliss
Besides, it's 4Kids! I hate to see people losing jobs, but 4Kids has
shown itself to be completely out of the loop in what anime fans want
since it butchered "One Piece."
Antonio E. Gonzalez
It already speaks volumes he seems to be a fan of The Anime Rapi- .
. . errr, 4Kids . . .
--
- ReFlex76
Starcade
wrote:
> Mike, they did it by trying to cheat the Japanese out of rightfully due
> royaltys. Nothing more. If anything the Japanese will be less likely to
> license here due to 4Kids stealing from them.
Obviously, you've been one of those parties cheering for Kahn's/4Kids'
demise for quite some time, I would have to imagine.
I would say, if this is right, why would I (if I were a Japanese anime
company) want to touch _Funimation_ at this point, between the Navarre
sale rumors and this kind of situation possibly biting me in the butt?
If this were true, 4Kids is not the only company cheating the Japanese
(even on just this deal)...
So why is Funimation not in the lawsuit?
Mike
Starcade
wrote:
> Don't bother Mikey with the facts now, if 4Kids goes under someone will
> take its place.
You are a fucking dupe.
You are such an idiot, there should be an investigation.
You seem to think that there are an infinite number of companies who
are going to fill voids, throwing all their money away while the anime
fans (as the fucking thieves the vast supermajority of them are!!)
basically take all their hard work and make a complete financial zero
out of it.
You really must believe that there are companies just begging to go
bankrupt?
Then why has no one bought the biggest financial zero in all current
anime, Funimation?
> Mike attacks Anime fans as thieves all the time.
Facts are facts. Just because you are one and hang with more doesn't
mean you ignore the facts.
> He never attacked companies like 4Kids before as
> he assumed that they were honest and maybe they are, all we have
> is the Japanese saying they are owed money. A court or two or
> more will be making the decisions. We should let them do it.
> and Starcade belongs on your killfile, it will save you
> lots of aggravation.
Fuck you.
Mike
bil...@yahoo.com
Mike,
I appologize if I asked this in passed. If you did answer this
question, then I simply don't remember the answer.
Besides the piracy - reardless of Usenet or P2P network - how do
you believe used DVD sellers like Book Off and other local second-hand
shops fit into the equation? (i.e. A *real* DVD with an original MSRP
of $29.99 going for as little as $4.99?)
Also, I don't remember you ever stating how you feel about
zone-free players being available in the US or the fact that
"Recycling Booksellers" (what Book Off calls itself) sell used zone 2
discs. Thus, allowing the end-consumer to effectvly bypass US
companies alltogether.
Thanks for your time.
Cheers,
Bill N.
Bobbie Sellers
snip of trivialities
>
> Mike,
>
> I appologize if I asked this in passed. If you did answer this
> question, then I simply don't remember the answer.
>
> Besides the piracy - reardless of Usenet or P2P network - how do
> you believe used DVD sellers like Book Off and other local second-hand
> shops fit into the equation? (i.e. A *real* DVD with an original MSRP
> of $29.99 going for as little as $4.99?)
Don't forget remainders either since you are asking.
These are available from online dealers of repute as well
as at stores like Japan Video in Nihon Machi, San Francisco.
Gee Yawara is available now from TRSI for about $40 USD.
I paid a lot more than that for the box set from AnimEgo
but why should I get upset about? If I had the money I would
buy a stack of these to give away. Then more people would be
hollering for the rest of the show in licensed release in the
Western nations.
>
> Also, I don't remember you ever stating how you feel about
> zone-free players being available in the US or the fact that
> "Recycling Booksellers" (what Book Off calls itself) sell used zone 2
> discs. Thus, allowing the end-consumer to effectvly bypass US
> companies alltogether.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
> Cheers,
> Bill N.
>
later and keep on smiling Bill.
bliss
bliss
Dave Watson
> Mike,
>
> I appologize if I asked this in passed. If you did answer this
> question, then I simply don't remember the answer.
Bill, Bill, Bill...
Get it through your thick skull already. Dickhead is CERTIFIED INSANE,
ignores provable evidence contrary to the laws of the La-La Land inside his
head, and pretty much ignores reality as a whole. He is using this group
and the good people in it the same way he used Debbie Gibson. Stop giving
him attention. Put your time and effort towards worthier things, like
picking lint out of your navel. Thank you.
Watson.
Starcade
They're essentially irrelevant, because the damage was long-since
done.
For example, there's a decent network of such places like Amoeba
Records and Rasputin up in the Bay Area, and they have (though not
substantial) anime sections.
The problem is that you are basically asking how second-sale DVD
situations hurt the process when the piracy, etc. often can't even get
enough _first_-sales to take care of the companies. Deal with
increasing first-sales before we deal with decreasing (if it needs to
be) seconds...
Mike (Remember that the bulk of (at least for the used places) the DVD
are prior first-sales. If there are no first-sales...)
Starcade
> It already speaks volumes he seems to be a fan of The Anime Rapi- .
> . . errr, 4Kids . . .
I think that Al Kahn had about the only solution for your (supposed)
over-licensing:
If it can't be merchandised to Hell and back, then it has no real
reason to be licensed, in his view.
If you truly believe there's far too much licensing, then that has to
be the manner in which you operate.
So he (not like BVUSA's recognition of the minute number of anime fans
who actually buy the product (and set the prices accordingly)) was
_right_...
Mike
Starcade
wrote:
> Get it through your thick skull already. Dickhead is CERTIFIED INSANE,
Then have me locked up. For your own protection.
> ignores provable evidence contrary to the laws of the La-La Land inside his
> head, and pretty much ignores reality as a whole. He is using this group
> and the good people in it the same way he used Debbie Gibson. Stop giving
> him attention. Put your time and effort towards worthier things, like
> picking lint out of your navel. Thank you.
If that's the case, it'll probably end the same way -- minus that I
actually cared for the former.
You guys make me certifiably sick.
Mike
Dave Watson
really don't want to read this and your newsreader has a Subject Plonk like
40tude Dialogue does (my way of handling the current lame-ass RAAM invasion
attempt), just add this subject to it and read no further than this
paragraph. This is the only exception I plan to make in the present and
foreseeable future. I hope you appreciate that at least I'm trying to show
some courtesy to you this time.
Reply to Stalkerboy begins after the space.
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On Sat, 2 Apr 2011 18:29:57 -0700 (PDT), Starcade wrote:
> On Apr 2, 10:24 am, Dave Watson <dwbeingupfr...@fuspamma.gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Get it through your thick skull already. Dickhead is CERTIFIED INSANE,
>
> Then have me locked up. For your own protection.
"I'm tough! I'm tough!! Really, I am!!!"
Silly cunt.
>> ignores provable evidence contrary to the laws of the La-La Land inside his
>> head, and pretty much ignores reality as a whole. He is using this group
>> and the good people in it the same way he used Debbie Gibson. Stop giving
>> him attention. Put your time and effort towards worthier things, like
>> picking lint out of your navel. Thank you.
>
> If that's the case, it'll probably end the same way -- minus that I
> actually cared for the former.
>
> You guys make me certifiably sick.
No, we don't. We can all see that you genuinely care for us. In fact, I
bet you actually want to suck our collective rectums so badly that your
tongue aches. People normally don't continue to waste time and energy on
large groups of people they hate when it's obvious to them that said large
group will never take anything they have to say seriously. /b/tards and
their stupid memes bug the living shit out of me, so...I rarely go to 4chan
and stay far away from the /b/ forum when I do. Works well for me.
And don't give us that silly "you want me gone, make me go, bitch" bullshit
any more. Anyone can see that the only reason you say that is that you
actually don't want to go. In fact, you love us and what we have to say,
and you deeply feel that your life would be empty, meaningless, boring and
serve no actual purpose if it weren't for us.
Mind you, unlike you, I'm fine with being proven wrong. One of the things
I learn from, you see.
Watson.
Starcade
If people accused me of the types of things they've accused me of, who
in the fucking Hell do you think you are to think you'll get better?
You're an arrogant fuck, but you're an anime fan in 2011 -- in most
cases, that's repeating oneself.
The only reason that I haven't already fucked up an anime con
seriously (and done so four years ago) is because I have other things
than this in my life.
> > If that's the case, it'll probably end the same way -- minus that I
> > actually cared for the former.
>
> > You guys make me certifiably sick.
>
> No, we don't. We can all see that you genuinely care for us. In fact, I
> bet you actually want to suck our collective rectums so badly that your
> tongue aches.
You are truly mad.
But, again, you're on the Internet, you're an anime fan, so, again, in
most cases, that's repeating oneself.
> People normally don't continue to waste time and energy on
> large groups of people they hate when it's obvious to them that said large
> group will never take anything they have to say seriously.
You forget two very important things:
1) I'd be dead if I stopped "wasting time and energy on large groups
of people I hate". That pretty much describes _EVERYBODY_ at this
point.
2) I said years ago that I didn't do this for you. I did this so
that, when it all falls apart and the anime industry dies (which is
the one real outcome, and the desired outcome of most anime thieves/
fans), somebody was there to call it.
> /b/tards and their stupid memes bug the living shit out of me, so...I rarely go to 4chan
> and stay far away from the /b/ forum when I do. Works well for me.
The fact is that most cons I go to these days are actually meant to
give other people some R&R. There's about one convention a year that
I might enjoy anymore, and that depends on the guestlist.
> And don't give us that silly "you want me gone, make me go, bitch" bullshit
> any more. Anyone can see that the only reason you say that is that you
> actually don't want to go. In fact, you love us and what we have to say,
> and you deeply feel that your life would be empty, meaningless, boring and
> serve no actual purpose if it weren't for us.
No, son. I think you actually don't get it. Much like the Debheads
circa 1994-95-96-97... You just don't have the fucking guts to do it.
I'll take you even one better: You have no understanding of exactly
what it is you are saying. Otherwise, you'd make good on something
you (collectively) said years ago and do the one thing which might
help keep some of these meme-infested brats safe: Have me reported to
and banned from all conventions.
> Mind you, unlike you, I'm fine with being proven wrong. One of the things
> I learn from, you see.
Thing is, it's one thing to be fine with it. The first part of that
is that you have to be wrong.
What we are learning is exactly the kind of stuff I feared might be
going on, and would be about the only "defense" (and not even a legal
one) against pirating the product: That the entire industry's
existence was a blooming fraud.
The question now is, if this goes to trial, Funimation's going to be
called to the stand -- and I'd be the first to ask if there were other
secret deals (to create "preponderance of evidence" through a legal
concept called "course of conduct") to keep the situation afloat...
But since I'm a "silly cunt", I'm already clear that I'm not taken
seriously.
Considering the source...
Mike
Antonio E. Gonzalez
I mean, Al Kahn is said to have infamously uttered, "they won't be
able to tell it's Japanese when we're done with it." Good riddance.
Starcade
> I mean, Al Kahn is said to have infamously uttered, "they won't be
> able to tell it's Japanese when we're done with it." Good riddance.
I think it's then official... You want the American companies all to
die.
Mike
rincewind
>
> Mike
Why would this make anime "thieves" happy (and I don't agree that all
"fans" qualify as "thieves"?) Seems to me there's one less company for
them to rip off!
rincewind
No. I want the companies that can't respect what they're supposed to
be doing to fail.
rincewind
I don't know what the "Navarre sale rumor" is. But Japan realizes that
a large amount of their profit comes from America. (That is, if they
don't get ripped off for their royalties.) Japan is not going to see
EVERY American distributor as a rip-off artist. However, because of
this, they are going to watch any American distributor very closely.
Starcade
Elaborate, because I do wonder if that's possible, or if it ever was,
with the R1 dubbing companies.
Mike (I think the concept of "localization" will probably run counter
to what you believe the R1 companies are supposed to be doing.)
Starcade
> I don't know what the "Navarre sale rumor" is.
Until yesterday (or the day before), when Funimation was sold back to
Gen Fukunage for about 1/5 it's former value, there was a concerted
effort by their former parent and current distributor, Navarre, to
economically discontinue them and sell the company.
> But Japan realizes that a large amount of their profit comes from America. (That is, if they
> don't get ripped off for their royalties.)
That might come as news to a lot of people in this newsgroup.
> Japan is not going to see
> EVERY American distributor as a rip-off artist. However, because of
> this, they are going to watch any American distributor very closely.
I'm not so sure. To say that the Americans aren't wholesale frauds
would indicate that they have the right and ability to feasibly sell
product they are _licensed_ to sell.
Mike
Starcade
> Why would this make anime "thieves" happy (and I don't agree that all
> "fans" qualify as "thieves"?) Seems to me there's one less company for
> them to rip off!
Because THEY want to be the owners of the product.
Mike
--
Hello Mike,
I went to a party in Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey. At that party, I
was told that the cookies that were being served should have been
called Wookies, because they were chewy.
I was hoping to make a little light on such a dark subject.
Cheers to you,
Bill N. - New York
Antonio E. Gonzalez
Hence why companies like Funimation thrive, while 4Kids goes away
. . .
Rob Kelk
<edrh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Mar 31, 8:55=A0pm, Starcade <darkstar7...@gmail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
>Why would this make anime "thieves" happy (and I don't agree that all
>"fans" qualify as "thieves"?) Seems to me there's one less company for
>them to rip off!
Starcade has a view of reality that does not match the rest of the
world's. In his view, anyone who has ever watched a show without paying
for it is a thief.
Most of the rest of us - including the vocal anti-piracy advocates -
have grown tired of repeatedly pointing out the legal, dictionary, and
common definitions of "thief" over the years, and ignore his posts. The
group is much quieter (and saner) when one does that.
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"Aggresive killfiling. I highly recommend it. It isn't personal;
there's just a limited number of hours in the day."
- Russ Allbery (<http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>), in message
<yl66l68...@windlord.stanford.edu>
Starcade
> >No. I want the companies that can't respect what they're supposed to
> >be doing to fail.
>
> Hence why companies like Funimation thrive, while 4Kids goes away
> . . .
If you can call Funimation "thriving" at 20% of it's value from five
years ago...
Mike
Starcade
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 20:02:57 -0700 (PDT), rincewind
>
> >On Mar 31, 8:55=A0pm, Starcade <darkstar7...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> >Why would this make anime "thieves" happy (and I don't agree that all
> >"fans" qualify as "thieves"?) Seems to me there's one less company for
> >them to rip off!
>
> Starcade has a view of reality that does not match the rest of the
> world's. In his view, anyone who has ever watched a show without paying
> for it is a thief.
Close, but no cigar.
You see, in the real world, the companies who put stuff out on
television grant a limited license (and, believe you and me, there's
been court cases since the invention of the VCR as to _how_ limited of
a license) as to what to do with the material.
What the Internet thievery generation has been trying to do is
completely blow up that distinction, and effectively grant an
UNLIMITED license, from the point that the product is physically first
made available (even if the legal "airing" of the program has not been
made yet).
What this does in fact is render all future prospect of sale and
localization of the product irrelevant.
The fact is that the massive amount of anime "fans" are thieves who
don't want to pay for the product.
And trying to change the wording doesn't change the facts unless you
want to declare that the creators and licensees have no property
rights to the material whatsoever -- and THAT makes ALL sale fraud.
> Most of the rest of us - including the vocal anti-piracy advocates -
> have grown tired of repeatedly pointing out the legal, dictionary, and
> common definitions of "thief" over the years, and ignore his posts. The
> group is much quieter (and saner) when one does that.
Because most such anti-piracy advocates have given up and lost the
fight.
Result: See Funimation's current real value, and compare that to five
years ago.
Now compare market shares.
Mike
Antonio E. Gonzalez
To be clear, why companies that respect the anime they use, and
respect their fans like Funimation thrive, while companies that shit
on their product, and shit on their fans like 4Kids disappear . . .
Antonio E. Gonzalez
wrote:
>On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 20:02:57 -0700 (PDT), rincewind
><edrh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 31, 8:55=A0pm, Starcade <darkstar7...@gmail.com> wrote:
><SNIP>
>
>>Why would this make anime "thieves" happy (and I don't agree that all
>>"fans" qualify as "thieves"?) Seems to me there's one less company for
>>them to rip off!
>
>Starcade has a view of reality that does not match the rest of the
>world's. In his view, anyone who has ever watched a show without paying
>for it is a thief.
>
>Most of the rest of us - including the vocal anti-piracy advocates -
>have grown tired of repeatedly pointing out the legal, dictionary, and
>common definitions of "thief" over the years, and ignore his posts. The
>group is much quieter (and saner) when one does that.
Tell me about it. In what has turned out to be a brilliant
decision, the SPJA moved Anime Expo to the LA Convention Center, and
LA Live. You-know-who predicted con-goers would be repeatedly mugged
by the locals. Needless to say, three years, and not so much as
littering tickets. Might I add, the locals I met were quite sociable.
rincewind
> > Japan is not going to see
> > EVERY American distributor as a rip-off artist. However, because of
> > this, they are going to watch any American distributor very closely.
>
> I'm not so sure. To say that the Americans aren't wholesale frauds
> would indicate that they have the right and ability to feasibly sell
> product they are _licensed_ to sell.
I don't believe the American market is comprised of wholesale frauds.
Yes, there are problems, I don't believe these problems are contained
only in America.
Are we supposed to believe that there are NO anime fans in Canada,
Great Britain or Continental Europe who are stealing Japanese product?
I would like to point out that my wife is among those who actively
looks for Japanese products, which she watches until she can get a
hold of them legally. She watched "Deathnote" "Detroit Metal City"
"Money Crazy" mostly raw with no subtitles. When they became available
in DVD form, she snapped them up. (We were amazed at how close she got
to what was actually going on when she'd watched the stories raw.) Me
myself, I accidently found an anime called "Azumanga Diaoh," while
looking for videos of "Jump In The Line." I followed fan subs of this
series until I'd finished it. Then, when I found the DVD set, I
snatched it up as well.
rincewind
I'm not following. Who are they going to steal if from if it's not
being produced here?
Dave Watson
rince...don't bother. Stalkerboy is a restaurant-size jar full of loose
screws.
Watson.
rincewind
wrote:
OK, sorry. And I feel sorry for him as well.
Starcade
> Tell me about it. In what has turned out to be a brilliant
> decision, the SPJA moved Anime Expo to the LA Convention Center, and
> LA Live. You-know-who predicted con-goers would be repeatedly mugged
> by the locals. Needless to say, three years, and not so much as
> littering tickets. Might I add, the locals I met were quite sociable.
You must not have gone far.
Let's put it this way: I spent nine years on the streets of San
Francisco, and even _I_ have strong reason to fear going south of
Chick Hearn Station even 100 feet.
Mike
Starcade
> On Apr 6, 1:25 am, Starcade <darkstar7...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Japan is not going to see
> > > EVERY American distributor as a rip-off artist. However, because of
> > > this, they are going to watch any American distributor very closely.
>
> > I'm not so sure. To say that the Americans aren't wholesale frauds
> > would indicate that they have the right and ability to feasibly sell
> > product they are _licensed_ to sell.
>
> I don't believe the American market is comprised of wholesale frauds.
This would mean, again, that the American market has the right and the
ability to feasibly sell the product it is licensed to sell.
Unless you can compel the populace to either buy the product or not
consume it, the question as to whether they have the feasible ability
(and, given recent court decisions, even the right) to sell and
control the distribution of the product is a very real question.
Given the non-equivalence of lost sales and illegal downloads, plus
the economic impossibility to sue the rampant number of downloaders,
it is left to real question as to whether buying anime (at any price!)
is now not an act born of fraud, given that the real economic value of
the anime is zero...
> Yes, there are problems, I don't believe these problems are contained
> only in America.
No, I don't either. Doesn't change the fact that those problems are
here, as well as other places.
> Are we supposed to believe that there are NO anime fans in Canada,
> Great Britain or Continental Europe who are stealing Japanese product?
No, in fact ADV said that was one of the reasons they had to shut down
their Euro operations in January of the year they eventually had to
sever...
It's just far worse here because of sheer numbers.
> I would like to point out that my wife is among those who actively
> looks for Japanese products, which she watches until she can get a
> hold of them legally. She watched "Deathnote" "Detroit Metal City"
> "Money Crazy" mostly raw with no subtitles. When they became available
> in DVD form, she snapped them up. (We were amazed at how close she got
> to what was actually going on when she'd watched the stories raw.) Me
> myself, I accidently found an anime called "Azumanga Diaoh," while
> looking for videos of "Jump In The Line." I followed fan subs of this
> series until I'd finished it. Then, when I found the DVD set, I
> snatched it up as well.
Doesn't matter. You're still stealing the fucking product.
You have no right to do that until the product is legally available,
and then only through legal channels.
Mike
Starcade
> I'm not following. Who are they going to steal if from if it's not
> being produced here?
The Japanese companies, until they put them out of business.
Mike
rincewind
> Doesn't matter. You're still stealing the fucking product.
>
> You have no right to do that until the product is legally available,
> and then only through legal channels.
But then, how would I have known to buy it? I bought it BECAUSE I had
seen it.
Dave Watson
rince, didn't I tell you that the day this silly cunt shows signs of
listening to reason will be the day pigs fly?
Watson.
Starcade
No dice. You're still a fucking thief.
What you and a whole bunch of people don't get is that you have no
right to even view the product minus the manners in which the creators
and licensees prescribe.
I'd hate to see how you'd deal with having to pay for base television
(not talking about cable, talking about countries like England where
you have to pay to even have a television set!).
Mike
sanjian
Don't follow, just killfile. It really is the best course to maintain
sanity.
rincewind
> world's. In his view, anyone who has ever watched a show without paying
> for it is a thief.
>
> Most of the rest of us - including the vocal anti-piracy advocates -
> have grown tired of repeatedly pointing out the legal, dictionary, and
> common definitions of "thief" over the years, and ignore his posts. The
> group is much quieter (and saner) when one does that.
While I think he's being a jerk about it, he does have a point.
What's your take on the "thief" thing that mean we have a right to
watch something provided by someone who doesn't have the license to
present it?
As I've said. I have watched fandubs, but I've turned around and
purchased the product as soon as possible.
Starcade doesn't care about that, fine. I don't care a lot about
Starcade.
I just think he's wrong in his point of view that the "thieves" are
going to rejoice because 4kids is gone. The people rejoicing will be
people who want to see anime presented more truly to its original
format.
rincewind
> What this does in fact is render all future prospect of sale and
> localization of the product irrelevant.
And yet, "Azumanga Dioh" and "Oran High School Host Club," both of
which were presented as fansubs both also did very well in production.
> The fact is that the massive amount of anime "fans" are thieves who
> don't want to pay for the product.
But I did, and so did my wife. And we'll continue to buy stuff that we
see that piques our interest.
Ansgar -59cobalt- Wiechers
>> Starcade has a view of reality that does not match the rest of the
>> world's. In his view, anyone who has ever watched a show without
>> paying for it is a thief.
>>
>> Most of the rest of us - including the vocal anti-piracy advocates -
>> have grown tired of repeatedly pointing out the legal, dictionary,
>> and common definitions of "thief" over the years, and ignore his
>> posts. The group is much quieter (and saner) when one does that.
>
> While I think he's being a jerk about it, he does have a point.
> What's your take on the "thief" thing that mean we have a right to
> watch something provided by someone who doesn't have the license to
> present it?
The take of most people with at least some remote clue on the "thief
thing" is that the term means to deprive someone of the possession of a
physical item. Now tell me, which physical item is removed due to a
copyright infringement in a way that the original owner loses possession
of the item?
There is a reason why theft and copyright infringements are covered by
distinct laws, the reason being that the two have nothing to do with
each other. At. All.
> As I've said. I have watched fandubs, but I've turned around and
> purchased the product as soon as possible.
Most of us here have.
> Starcade doesn't care about that, fine. I don't care a lot about
> Starcade.
Then kindly stop dragging the idiot out of everyone's killfiles, lest be
killfiled yourself.
cu
59cobalt
--
"My surname is Li and my personal name is Kao, and there is a slight
flaw in my character."
--Li Kao (Barry Hughart: Bridge of Birds)
Rob Kelk
<edrh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Starcade has a view of reality that does not match the rest of the
>> world's. In his view, anyone who has ever watched a show without paying
>> for it is a thief.
>>
>> Most of the rest of us - including the vocal anti-piracy advocates -
>> have grown tired of repeatedly pointing out the legal, dictionary, and
>> common definitions of "thief" over the years, and ignore his posts. The
>> group is much quieter (and saner) when one does that.
>
>While I think he's being a jerk about it, he does have a point.
>What's your take on the "thief" thing that mean we have a right to
>watch something provided by someone who doesn't have the license to
>present it?
Y'know, you're the first person in all the years that this argument has
gone on who's actually asked me that question. (Everyone else has
assumed that I'm at one extreme or the other...)
Frist off, it isn't "stealing" - that's removal of property from its
rightful owner, which this doesn't do. This is a violation of copyright
law on the part of the person who didn't have the licence, and is
covered by a different law altogether.
As to your actual question... as long as the person who watched the show
did so in good faith (believing he was legally allowed to do so) or the
person has no way to watch the show legally, then I have no problem with
this. In the first case, the person was unaware that the show was
obtained illegally, so it isn't his fault (and Canadian copyright law
recognizes this as a valid defence). In the second case, the license
holder is not injured because there is no license holder - but in my
view this has the caveat that the show should be obtained legally once
it is licenced. (This is the old view that once a show has been picked
up professionally, all fansub distribution of the show is to stop.)
Using a fansub as an aid to understanding a legally-obtained copy of the
original show is also acceptable in my view.
>As I've said. I have watched fandubs, but I've turned around and
>purchased the product as soon as possible.
You're like me, then.
>Starcade doesn't care about that, fine. I don't care a lot about
>Starcade.
>
>I just think he's wrong in his point of view that the "thieves" are
>going to rejoice because 4kids is gone. The people rejoicing will be
>people who want to see anime presented more truly to its original
>format.
I can't argue with you there...
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
Starcade
> Frist off, it isn't "stealing" - that's removal of property from its
> rightful owner, which this doesn't do. This is a violation of copyright
> law on the part of the person who didn't have the licence, and is
> covered by a different law altogether.
And there's where you are wrong wrong and wrong again.
You have removed the property from the owner -- the property being the
actual product itself _AND_ the control over the dissemination of said
product (the latter is basically the concept of why there is a concept
called "intellectual property").
Without the right to control the dissemination (the _copy_ _right_, as
it were -- the basis for the term "copyright"), at best the companies
have the proverbial "goddamned piece of paper".
At worst, because they no longer have (in reality, and in more and
more cases, court-recognized) rights to control dissemination, the
product has no real financial value, and it becomes fraudulent to sell
it to those who believe it does.
> As to your actual question... as long as the person who watched the show
> did so in good faith (believing he was legally allowed to do so) or the
> person has no way to watch the show legally, then I have no problem with
> this.
The former is laughable, the latter is part of the entire concept of
copyright and intellectual property.
On the former:
If a person downloads off the Net and truly believes he or she has the
right to do so, either he or she is too ignorant of the law to be
allowed on the Internet circa 2011 or he or she is trying to subvert
said law.
I mean, there are people who honestly believe the wholesale
downloading, piracy, and subversion of intellectual property rights is
actually covered by Fair Use.
On the latter:
If a company has the right to control dissemination, it has the right
to permanently deny any person it so chooses from EVER getting the
product disseminated to them.
It has the right to do what Farix proposed (if USENET worked like
this): It has the right to compel parties to completely disallow any
individual or group it so chooses from ever being allowed to consume
the product.
The creators or licensees could legally ban the United States from
ever legally seeing anime today, if it chose to do so.
That does NOT, and NEVER will, give the right to the people to subvert
those property rights.
And without those property rights, the creators and licensees lose the
right to gain any financial recompense, and it is fraudulent for them,
then, to do so. For me to buy the product after such loss of rights
is buying on an expectation of real financial value which does not
exist. It is an action borne of a material misleading fact, and that
is fraud.
> In the first case, the person was unaware that the show was
> obtained illegally, so it isn't his fault (and Canadian copyright law
> recognizes this as a valid defence).
Which is madness, because any rational person who can not tell the
difference needs (as a condition of being on the Internet) an
educational primer on such legalities.
> In the second case, the license
> holder is not injured because there is no license holder - but in my
> view this has the caveat that the show should be obtained legally once
> it is licenced. (This is the old view that once a show has been picked
> up professionally, all fansub distribution of the show is to stop.)
This would presume there is no original owner, and, hence, no property
rights to assign.
Hence, all subsequent actions -- License, sale, and purchase -- become
fraudulent.
If I have the right to control who can localize my product, I can
legally deny any person or group from ever consuming it. That is the
concept of "property rights" at it's basic level.
> Using a fansub as an aid to understanding a legally-obtained copy of the
> original show is also acceptable in my view.
I used to believe that canard. I don't anymore, because of the
rampant abuse of the concept.
I think that the thief-dom of anime fans understands and believes the
entire legal and corporate nature of the fandom as a fraud.
Because, at that moment, you no longer have a product to sell.
What stops me, then, if I'm so desirous of a physical copy, from
downloading the anime and ripping the resultant files to DVD disk?
Most reasoned computers have burners built right in.
> >As I've said. I have watched fandubs, but I've turned around and
> >purchased the product as soon as possible.
>
> You're like me, then.
And you're both thieves.
You have subverted the fundamental property rights of the holders to
deny you permanently the product, should they so choose.
> >Starcade doesn't care about that, fine. I don't care a lot about
> >Starcade.
>
> >I just think he's wrong in his point of view that the "thieves" are
> >going to rejoice because 4kids is gone. The people rejoicing will be
> >people who want to see anime presented more truly to its original
> >format.
>
> I can't argue with you there...
Madness.
Most anime cannot be presented (in such a format which Kahn and his
merchandising kings would want it) in original form.
Hell, one would be surprised as to how little anime can actually ever
air in original form.
Mike
Starcade
<usenet-2...@planetcobalt.net> wrote:
> rincewind <edrho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Starcade has a view of reality that does not match the rest of the
> >> world's. In his view, anyone who has ever watched a show without
> >> paying for it is a thief.
>
> >> Most of the rest of us - including the vocal anti-piracy advocates -
> >> have grown tired of repeatedly pointing out the legal, dictionary,
> >> and common definitions of "thief" over the years, and ignore his
> >> posts. The group is much quieter (and saner) when one does that.
>
> > While I think he's being a jerk about it, he does have a point.
> > What's your take on the "thief" thing that mean we have a right to
> > watch something provided by someone who doesn't have the license to
> > present it?
>
> The take of most people with at least some remote clue on the "thief
> thing" is that the term means to deprive someone of the possession of a
> physical item. Now tell me, which physical item is removed due to a
> copyright infringement in a way that the original owner loses possession
> of the item?
They lose the right to control dissemination of the product (which, by
it's nature, is NOT a physical item, but is no less the "property" of
the creators and licensees than a physical product in a store -- such
is why I do NOT believe in the distinction between thievery and
piracy, nor theft and copyright protection).
Without the equivalence of illegal download and lost sale, or the
means by which mass numbers of suspected pirate downloaders can be
prosecuted for taking the product and the right to control it's
dissemination, the companies lose all such rights, including the
actual copyright. They are, at best, left with the proverbial
"goddamned piece of paper".
On top of that, those of us left to condemn piracy and attempt to be
anime fans without doing so are left with reduced product, reduced
quality of product, and the realization that there is no legal
protection for the purchase -- in fact, the purchase itself is
fraudulent, and rapidly becoming obsolete.
> There is a reason why theft and copyright infringements are covered by
> distinct laws, the reason being that the two have nothing to do with
> each other. At. All.
BULLSHIT.
They are, in fact, redundant!
Otherwise the act of licensure is fraud.
Otherwise the act of sale is fraud.
Otherwise the act of buying the product is being defrauded of one's
money.
The property rights of a physical item are no different than the
property rights of a non-physical item.
> > As I've said. I have watched fandubs, but I've turned around and
> > purchased the product as soon as possible.
>
> Most of us here have.
And that's why I hold most of you here in contempt. Pray I don't
physically meet many of you.
> > Starcade doesn't care about that, fine. I don't care a lot about
> > Starcade.
>
> Then kindly stop dragging the idiot out of everyone's killfiles, lest be
> killfiled yourself.
Fuck off, thieving cunt.
Mike
Syd M.
Totally. I get the feeling this one doesn't like fanboys at all.
PDW
Syd M.
> On Apr 8, 2:41 am, rincewind <edrho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 8, 12:43 am, Starcade <darkstar7...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Doesn't matter. You're still stealing the fucking product.
>
> > > You have no right to do that until the product is legally available,
> > > and then only through legal channels.
>
> > But then, how would I have known to buy it? I bought it BECAUSE I had
> > seen it.
>
> No dice. You're still a fucking thief.
>
Fuck you.
PDW
Syd M.
No, YOU fuck off, arrogant asshole.
PDW
Starcade
> No, YOU fuck off, arrogant asshole.
I see where this is going to end...
Sorry if it's arrogant to actually want to see more out of anime,
which is going to require the shocking action on the part of it's
fanbase to actually _pay_ for the content they consume.
"Arrogant asshole", in your eyes, bitch, doesn't even _BEGIN_ to
describe me.
Mike
Starcade
Truth hurts people like you, doesn't it?
Mike
Antonio E. Gonzalez
The Debbie Gibson thing points to a closet fanboy who projects.
Syd M.
> On Apr 29, 1:28 pm, "Syd M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > No, YOU fuck off, arrogant asshole.
>
> I see where this is going to end...
>
> Sorry if it's arrogant to actually want to see more out of anime,
> which is going to require the shocking action on the part of it's
> fanbase to actually _pay_ for the content they consume.
>
Most do, asshole. Your ranting about a very small subset.
PDW
Syd M.
It would, if you were telling the truth, asshole.
PDW
Syd M.
Really. Makes you wonder what he hopes to accomplish, except perhaps
making people mad at him.
Must be a total loser.
PDW
Starcade
> It would, if you were telling the truth, asshole.
I am.
What's your fucking excuse?
Mike
Starcade
> Really. Makes you wonder what he hopes to accomplish, except perhaps
> making people mad at him.
> Must be a total loser.
I don't "hope to accomplish" that.
Every day I breathe does that for me.
I hope to accomplish that somebody else (since you fuckers are
hopelessly lost!) will see this and understand someone tried to get
your fucktards to wake up.
Mike
Starcade
Buy one to steal 20.
Nice strawman.
And you realize that's pretty close to the average percentage.
As long as it is an insult to actually purchase the anime you consume,
good anime can no longer be made.
Mike
Syd M.
> On Apr 30, 10:05 pm, "Syd M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > It would, if you were telling the truth, asshole.
>
> I am.
>
Another lie.
> What's your fucking excuse?
>
About what? I don't have to explain myself to a self-important little
jackass like you.
PDW
Syd M.
You are hopeless, aren't you?
And how much have YOU actually stolen, asshole?
PDW
Starcade
> On May 2, 5:43 am, Starcade <darkstar7...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 30, 10:05 pm, "Syd M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > It would, if you were telling the truth, asshole.
>
> > I am.
>
> Another lie.
Considering the source...
> > What's your fucking excuse?
>
> About what? I don't have to explain myself to a self-important little
> jackass like you.
About everything, you thief-supporting, industry-killing little punk
ass.
You get your way, and there will be no such thing as copyright.
Mike
Starcade
> You are hopeless, aren't you?
Then the facts are similarly hopeless, bitch.
> And how much have YOU actually stolen, asshole?
Why do you think I barely, if at all, watch anime anymore?
It seems like fanship implies you have to be a fucking thief.
Mike
Rob Kelk
<pauldav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On May 2, 5:43=A0am, Starcade <darkstar7...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 30, 10:05=A0pm, "Syd M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > It would, if you were telling the truth, asshole.
>>
>> I am.
>>
>
>Another lie.
>
>> What's your fucking excuse?
>>
>
>About what? I don't have to explain myself to a self-important little
>jackass like you.
How about you explain yourself to me, then? (I'm one of the group's FAQ
maintainers.)
Specifically, please explain why you keep baiting a poster that you know
will continue to respond, rather than post something that's actually
on-topic for the group.
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"Aggresive killfiling. I highly recommend it. It isn't personal;
there's just a limited number of hours in the day."
- Russ Allbery (<http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>), in message
<yl66l68...@windlord.stanford.edu>
sanjian
> On Sun, 8 May 2011 12:43:04 -0700 (PDT), "Syd M."
> <pauldav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On May 2, 5:43=A0am, Starcade<darkstar7...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Apr 30, 10:05=A0pm, "Syd M."<pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It would, if you were telling the truth, asshole.
>>>
>>> I am.
>>>
>>
>> Another lie.
>>
>>> What's your fucking excuse?
>>>
>>
>> About what? I don't have to explain myself to a self-important little
>> jackass like you.
>
> How about you explain yourself to me, then? (I'm one of the group's FAQ
> maintainers.)
>
> Specifically, please explain why you keep baiting a poster that you know
> will continue to respond, rather than post something that's actually
> on-topic for the group.
>
Remember when we just used to declare certain people persona non gratia?
Starcade
> On Sun, 8 May 2011 12:43:04 -0700 (PDT), "Syd M."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On May 2, 5:43=A0am, Starcade <darkstar7...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Apr 30, 10:05=A0pm, "Syd M." <pauldavidwri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > It would, if you were telling the truth, asshole.
>
> >> I am.
>
> >Another lie.
>
> >> What's your fucking excuse?
>
> >About what? I don't have to explain myself to a self-important little
> >jackass like you.
>
> How about you explain yourself to me, then? (I'm one of the group's FAQ
> maintainers.)
>
> Specifically, please explain why you keep baiting a poster that you know
> will continue to respond, rather than post something that's actually
> on-topic for the group.
Because he's too stupid to know the truth, and too cowardly to take it
off the group and bring it face-to-face.
Mike
Rob Kelk
>On 5/8/2011 7:30 PM, Rob Kelk wrote:
<snip>
>> Specifically, please explain why you keep baiting a poster that you know
>> will continue to respond, rather than post something that's actually
>> on-topic for the group.
>>
>
>Remember when we just used to declare certain people persona non gratia?
I'm giving him a chance to mend his ways. But only the one chance.