American vs. Japanese Animation -- quality and perception [slightly OT]
Thomas E. Reed
<skel...@planetbone.com> wrote:
>I can understand where you're coming from, but I have no desire to EVER see
>such a show... What I want to see is an American show which can have the
>level of realism of Perfect Blue... or play as down-to-earth as Patlabor
>2... Doesn't have to be like anime, but I would like to see something even
>remotely engaging... PoE is really the closest I've seen to true drama in
>American animation... where the people ACT like real people....
>
>I want to see something like that in the REAL modern world... with some
>action/adventure thrown in of course...
The only anime I've ever seen that approaches the "real" world is
"Serial Experiments Lain." It's the only one I've seen that takes
place in a modestly ordinary world, with ordinary people.
I could also point out that the "REAL modern world...with some
action/acventure thrown of course..." is patently false. To use a
real-world comparison, what would you call "real"? "Lethal Weapon" or
"True Lies" or "Get Carter" or "Charlie's Angels"? How about film noir
like "The Hitch-Hiker" or "Gun Crazy"? The only thing close to "real
world" circumstances would have to be something like "Backdraft."
Now, as far as a "glass ceiling," isn't it possible that anime has a
pretty good one, too? How many anime series are recycled versions of
previous shows? About as many as American cartoons, I'd bet, since
Sturgeon's Law applies to them too.
You know, rather than looking for "ground breaking" cartoons, or
something to shock you out of your shorts, animation fans might find
it more satisfying to realize that everybody pretty much works with
the same basic materials, and to find the people who work best with
those mateirals. Like, f'rinstance, Warner makes a lot of superhero
cartoons...but Paul Dini (for example) does more interesting stuff
with superheroes than anyone else. Or for anime, somebody like Monkey
Punch has nailed the rogue character with "Lupin III" better than
anyone else.
Tom Reed says, The Games at
MegaCon are coming! Check out
http://www.megaconvention.com
Mari-chan
rec.arts.anime.misc, the assertion was made that American animation
seems to have stagnated.
Well, I look at it, and they seem to be right. Not so much as
stagnated as hit a glass ceiling that it can't seem to break.
As far as TV goes, look at the Breakthrough series that set high water
marks. Batman. Gargoyles. While *very* uneven (animation and story-
wise), no series so far has really surpassed them, either overall or at
their best.
True, good shows have still come and gone. We did get Superman (it at
least began and ended well, with some high points in between),
the "new" Batman, Batman Beyond (true, it's getting tiring, but when
it's occasionally good, it's very good), Exosquad, the Starship
Troopers CG series, etc. So to evaluate this, I'm going to toss out a
list of some of the better shows that have been mentioned (I haven't
seen all of these myself)... those with dates on it when I can recall
the dates (please help me fill in the rest), so we can see the course...
I will include Canadian animation on the list too, since Canada has
produced some good stuff, and Canada seems to be largely in the same
boat as the US. I am not including re-dubbed, re-purposed Japanese
shows, since it doesn't really count for the purposes of this
discussion, although where the shows were animated is immaterial.
Please add those that I forgot.
Batman:TAS
Gargoyles
"New" Batman
Batman Beyond (1999-2000?)
Superman (1998-2000?)
Exosquad
Wing Commander Academy
Savage Dragon
The Tick
Beast Wars
Reboot (1997-1999?)
Starship Troopers (1999-2000?)
CyberSix -not SabanSix- (2000-?)
I really wish I could arrange this chronologically... but I can't yet.
When it is, I hope this gives us a better picture of things.
(I didn't put Spawn on the list... if you want to add it and debate
it's addition, go ahead -- I haven't seen enough of it or heard enough
about it to decide, although what little I know leaves me with a
negative impression)
As for films, some say Titan A.E. might have changed things... had it
not really, really, sucked (we can get into who's to blame for that
also... Don Bluth, Bill Mechanic, Ben Edlund / Joss Whedon, the
editors, etc.)
Disney, despite breaking out of the horrible slump they had in the 80's
losing their best people, have really painted themselves into a
corner. Fantasia 2000 was different and decidedly non-formula... but
it still didn't live up to the original and was neither different nor
mainstream enough to really change much. Same
with "Tarzan". "Atlantis" is the one that may or may not change
things -- and that's coming in 2001. It should be fun arguing about
how "anime-like" it is.
Disney's CG studio's Dinosaur. Looks nice in some ways, but no
advancement in plot. Nothing special. Wasted opportunity, perhaps.
Dreamworks... I consider Prince of Egypt a definite step forward. El
Dorado a definite step backward. Where it goes from here is anyone's
guess.
Iron Giant was really, really, amazing -- the only good thing to come
out of WB Animation... perhaps ever. Certainly a classic. Almost
making up for the stagnation of Disney througught the decade. But as
far as it's effect on perception, it was relegated to non-succesful
cult status. So no real effect there.
Heavy Metal, both the original and 2000, were just keeping up the
Bashiki tradition of wannabe "adult" decidedly non-mainstream badly
animated crapfests. In other words, they didn't change a thing, and
certainly did nothing for animation as a whole.
Pixar (they are not Disney, they just have a distribution deal) has at
least made some great CG films. Some of the best all-ages fantasy ever
made. Whether they improve or stagnate is up for grabs.
Square Studio's Final Fantasy could change things, as far as CG
goes. Maybe. Or it could be Titan AE. (if you want to debate
whether this counts, go ahead. Done by an international team of CG
artists working in Hawaii, with a story idea by the Japanese creator of
Final Fantasy, written in English first with a script by Al Rineheart,
made with English-speaking audiences primarily in mind).
So the point is, as we all know, while Japan isn't perfect, animation
does have wider acceptance there and very talented individuals are
allowed to make very artsy, risky, pretentious, but sometimes beautiful
and rewarding films, OAVs, and TV shows. The animation that does have
widespread acceptance (Miyazaki) is very good, etc.
That is largely untrue in the US (and Canada too?), unfortunately. But
no one has written American/Canadian animation off... we want it to
catch up. But the question here is... will it? Or will it not break
the glass ceiling for a while? Change happens slowly, by generation.
Will it take much longer? Another decade?
--
-Mari K.
"New leadership for a new American Century -- Kenneth Yamaoka for
President!"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
tbr...@trinity.edu
In article <8ttehc$f8r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Mari-chan <mar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Ok, in the other thread "Who is the blame for anime's bad image?" in
> rec.arts.anime.misc, the assertion was made that American animation
> seems to have stagnated.
Okay, so I missed that.
> Well, I look at it, and they seem to be right. Not so much as
> stagnated as hit a glass ceiling that it can't seem to break.
As long as the "best" of American animation lacks in a few areas
(consistency, continuity, character, etc.), the "glass ceiling" will be
a fantasy. I don't believe in glass celings with respect to narratives
anyway.
> As far as TV goes, look at the Breakthrough series that set high water
> marks. Batman. Gargoyles. While *very* uneven (animation and story-
> wise), no series so far has really surpassed them, either overall or
at
> their best.
Sure some have. You mention a few later, and I'll throw in my two
cents.
> True, good shows have still come and gone. We did get Superman (it
at
> least began and ended well, with some high points in between),
> the "new" Batman, Batman Beyond (true, it's getting tiring, but when
> it's occasionally good, it's very good), Exosquad, the Starship
> Troopers CG series, etc. So to evaluate this, I'm going to toss out a
> list of some of the better shows that have been mentioned (I haven't
> seen all of these myself)... those with dates on it when I can recall
> the dates (please help me fill in the rest), so we can see the
course...
>
> I will include Canadian animation on the list too, since Canada has
> produced some good stuff, and Canada seems to be largely in the same
> boat as the US. I am not including re-dubbed, re-purposed Japanese
> shows, since it doesn't really count for the purposes of this
> discussion, although where the shows were animated is immaterial.
>
> Please add those that I forgot.
>
> Batman:TAS
> Gargoyles
> "New" Batman
> Batman Beyond (1999-2000?)
Entertaining as the new Batman series are, the WB series are more
symptomatic of "hitting a rut" and "sticking to the basics" than a true
evolution in my eyes.
> Superman (1998-2000?)
> Exosquad
> Wing Commander Academy
What's cool about the latter two series is the presence of the Edens
writing trio. The writing of WCA (96) is pretty much ExoSquad (93-94)
on a less ambitious scale, but the best-looking episodes of WCA
(animated by Madhouse) really put ExoSquad out to pasture.
> Savage Dragon
I really liked the second season of Savage Dragon (95-96), but if
you're gonna include that, I'm including Biker Mice From Mars and
WildCATS. For better or worse, I haven't seen an anime ac/adv series
that compares on the pure entertainment level.
And no, I'm not into the animated wrestling stuff like DBZ and Ninja
Scroll.
> The Tick
> Beast Wars
Frankly, I think all three American TF series have their qualities. I
defend Beast Machines nowadays because the storyline's tighter and the
universe more coherent than anything the franchise has attempted. I'm
not partciularly excited by the show, but it's as admirable as a "30-
minute toy commercial" can be expected to be.
> Reboot (1997-1999?)
1994-1995 on ABC.
> Starship Troopers (1999-2000?)
> CyberSix -not SabanSix- (2000-?)
As impressive as Cybersix looks, things don't seem to be building the
way I would've hoped. It's consistent without being involving right
now.
I'll add:
Phantom 2040 (1994-5) for being the sharpest animated sci-fi series
ever, bar none.
Extreme Ghostbusters (1997) for unheard-of consistency over 40+ eps,
and proving that a limited franchise and a revival weak concept can
STILL be the foundation for a quality show.
Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat, season 1 (1995) for proving that old-
school visual narrative can still kick your momma's behind with enough
imagination.
Animaniacs (1994-1998) for proving the other end of the comedy spectrum
isn't as dead as the old-school types would have you believe, and for
getting antipathetic types believing in the concept of adult animation.
The Maxx, the best animated product I've ever seen, period. It
integrates a dark comic tone into the drama that even the best anime
I've seen has never accomplished without devolving into slapstick (NGE,
for starters), and features such effective use of postmodernism that A-
list, live-action filmmakers should take notice.
> I really wish I could arrange this chronologically... but I can't yet.
> When it is, I hope this gives us a better picture of things.
Heavy leanings toward action/adventure series on your list. No
complaints from me, but it mentions a concern of mine that American
animation really needs to delve more into character comedy. The two
volumes of Here is Greenwood is a perfect example (just caught the
series, and it's a real low-key gem).
> (I didn't put Spawn on the list... if you want to add it and debate
> it's addition, go ahead -- I haven't seen enough of it or heard enough
> about it to decide, although what little I know leaves me with a
> negative impression)
What you'll see might not impress you, but your list might suggest
otherwise. My main beef is that it's dull. The Maxx'll set you
straight.
> As for films, some say Titan A.E. might have changed things... had it
> not really, really, sucked (we can get into who's to blame for that
> also... Don Bluth, Bill Mechanic, Ben Edlund / Joss Whedon, the
> editors, etc.)
Given the jibes taken toward the same=ol' same-ol' story TAE had, how
revolutionary could it be? Even Star Ward felt like something fresh to
the average filmgoer back in the 70s.
> Disney, despite breaking out of the horrible slump they had in the
80's
> losing their best people, have really painted themselves into a
> corner. Fantasia 2000 was different and decidedly non-formula... but
> it still didn't live up to the original and was neither different nor
> mainstream enough to really change much. Same
> with "Tarzan". "Atlantis" is the one that may or may not change
> things -- and that's coming in 2001. It should be fun arguing about
> how "anime-like" it is.
If Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin cemented the revival (sorry Derek),
and Lion King made it The Word, stuff like Tarzan may keep the teens
and young adults who grew up on the revival flicks coming back for
more. Anime or otherwise.
> Disney's CG studio's Dinosaur. Looks nice in some ways, but no
> advancement in plot. Nothing special. Wasted opportunity, perhaps.
Completely wasted. Why slop $200 million on a bunch of photorealistic
talking heads? Final Fantasy'd better not go that route. Btter not be
faithful to the souce material either...
> Dreamworks... I consider Prince of Egypt a definite step forward. El
> Dorado a definite step backward. Where it goes from here is anyone's
> guess.
Antz was a stepping stone. PoE showed real potential. Haven't seen
RtED. Chicken Run's story was lacking, but was one of the most
enjoyable comedies I've seen in a while. Like Antz, this won really
won over the adults.
> Iron Giant was really, really, amazing -- the only good thing to come
> out of WB Animation... perhaps ever. <
I didn't care much for Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, but everyone
else'll hang you from the rafters for ignoring it (even though both
flicks were b.o. stinkers, ne?)
> Certainly a classic. Almost
> making up for the stagnation of Disney througught the decade. But as
> far as it's effect on perception, it was relegated to non-succesful
> cult status. So no real effect there.
Stagnant as Disney's been, I still wanted more than an admirably
animated take on E.T. Maybe the average Joe thought the whole deal was
ho-hum.
> Heavy Metal, both the original and 2000, were just keeping up the
> Bashiki tradition of wannabe "adult" decidedly non-mainstream badly
> animated crapfests. In other words, they didn't change a thing, and
> certainly did nothing for animation as a whole.
Gave a certainl group of aniamtion fans something to look at.
> Pixar (they are not Disney, they just have a distribution deal) has at
> least made some great CG films. Some of the best all-ages fantasy
ever
> made. Whether they improve or stagnate is up for grabs.
Bug's Life is probably the best example here. The story was hardly
worth a half-penny, but Lasseter's still a genius. A million gags a
minute in that, and every Pixar flick.
> Square Studio's Final Fantasy could change things, as far as CG
> goes. Maybe. Or it could be Titan AE. <
Or Dinosaur.
> (if you want to debate
> whether this counts, go ahead. Done by an international team of CG
> artists working in Hawaii, with a story idea by the Japanese creator
of
> Final Fantasy, written in English first with a script by Al Rineheart,
> made with English-speaking audiences primarily in mind).
How else could you jsutify a $100 million price tag?
> So the point is, as we all know, while Japan isn't perfect, animation
> does have wider acceptance there and very talented individuals are
> allowed to make very artsy, risky, pretentious, but sometimes
beautiful
> and rewarding films, OAVs, and TV shows. The animation that does have
> widespread acceptance (Miyazaki) is very good, etc.
Enirque Conty mentioned how the lack of a quality live action
filmmaking industry forces Japanese artists to go that route.
Apparently, they built an acceptance in the process.
> That is largely untrue in the US (and Canada too?), unfortunately.
But
> no one has written American/Canadian animation off... we want it to
> catch up. <
I don't want American animation to be like anime. Anime is for
Japanese audiences and is enjoyed by guys like me because it's
translated from that cultural standard. I want both regional
executions of the medium to improve in their own ways. I want more
American dramas like Clockers. I want more Japanese dramas like Miyu.
I'm not sure if I want a manga ka[?] to go the Spike Lee route.
> But the question here is... will it? Or will it not break
> the glass ceiling for a while? Change happens slowly, by generation.
> Will it take much longer? Another decade?
On the action/adventure front, what's gonna advance the bounds of
storytelling the way Batman did? Personally, I'm looking for
continuity, dialogue with a natural cadence, and character
relationships with depth. Still waiting for that.
> --
> -Mari K.
> "New leadership for a new American Century -- Kenneth Yamaoka for
> President!"
Terrence Briggs DID say "Short", didn't he?
Peace to you...
Skeleton Man
"Kannan Vijayan" <kvij...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
> It's not a matter of a glass ceiling. When North America decides to
> target adults for animations, you'll see a lot more stuff that is worth
> watching. And it wont be the same as anime, but that's all for the
> better. I havn't seen an anime yet that matches the biting commentary
> on duckman, the campy goodness of PPG, or the simply bizzare plots in
> Captain Star or The Head.
>
I can understand where you're coming from, but I have no desire to EVER see
such a show... What I want to see is an American show which can have the
level of realism of Perfect Blue... or play as down-to-earth as Patlabor
2... Doesn't have to be like anime, but I would like to see something even
remotely engaging... PoE is really the closest I've seen to true drama in
American animation... where the people ACT like real people....
I want to see something like that in the REAL modern world... with some
action/adventure thrown in of course...
I feel it is a "glass cieling" becuase I get the feeling that unless you
make some silly cartoon LIKE "Duckman or PPG" you couldn't ever get away
more adult "commentary" or themes...
--
Skeleton Man
http://users.lvcm.com/artfx
Seen Chaos yet?
> -kannan
Stephen W. Worth
<skel...@planetbone.com> wrote:
> I can understand where you're coming from, but I have no desire to EVER see
> such a show... What I want to see is an American show which can have the
> level of realism of... (snip) where the people ACT like real people....
> I want to see something like that in the REAL modern world... with some
> action/adventure thrown in of course...
Seems to me there are a lot of live action films that would fit your
requirements... and they would probably do a better job of it than
a stiff, highly realistic animated film would.
See ya
Steve
--
Visit Spumco's Wonderful World of Cartoons:
http://www.spumco.com alt.animation.spumco
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Vintage Ink & Paint http://www.vintageip.com
Invid Fan
> "Kannan Vijayan" <kvij...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
>
> > It's not a matter of a glass ceiling. When North America decides to
> > target adults for animations, you'll see a lot more stuff that is worth
> > watching. And it wont be the same as anime, but that's all for the
> > better. I havn't seen an anime yet that matches the biting commentary
> > on duckman, the campy goodness of PPG, or the simply bizzare plots in
> > Captain Star or The Head.
> >
>
> I can understand where you're coming from, but I have no desire to EVER see
> such a show... What I want to see is an American show which can have the
> level of realism of Perfect Blue... or play as down-to-earth as Patlabor
> 2... Doesn't have to be like anime, but I would like to see something even
> remotely engaging... PoE is really the closest I've seen to true drama in
> American animation... where the people ACT like real people....
>
> I want to see something like that in the REAL modern world... with some
> action/adventure thrown in of course...
>
But, you see, there comes a point where a show is so "real" that it
should of been made live action. We see alot of anime that has been
created in that format because it's cheaper then attempting to film a
live action version. To me, there has to be a REASON that you're doing
a story in animation, some aspect that just can't be duplicated with
real actors or sets.
--
Chris Mack "Never let two artists marry! Always push the
'Invid Fan' painter down the well! GRR! I CAN'T FORGET!"
-Quinton, 'Thieves & Kings'
In...@localnet.com
Kannan Vijayan
>
> "Kannan Vijayan" <kvij...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
>
> > It's not a matter of a glass ceiling. When North America decides to
> > target adults for animations, you'll see a lot more stuff that is worth
> > watching. And it wont be the same as anime, but that's all for the
> > better. I havn't seen an anime yet that matches the biting commentary
> > on duckman, the campy goodness of PPG, or the simply bizzare plots in
> > Captain Star or The Head.
> >
>
> I can understand where you're coming from, but I have no desire to EVER see
> such a show... What I want to see is an American show which can have the
> level of realism of Perfect Blue... or play as down-to-earth as Patlabor
> 2... Doesn't have to be like anime, but I would like to see something even
> remotely engaging... PoE is really the closest I've seen to true drama in
> American animation... where the people ACT like real people....
>
> I want to see something like that in the REAL modern world... with some
> action/adventure thrown in of course...
>
> make some silly cartoon LIKE "Duckman or PPG" you couldn't ever get away
> more adult "commentary" or themes...
> --
> Skeleton Man
> http://users.lvcm.com/artfx
> Seen Chaos yet?
>
I think this is the result again of anmation being targeted exclusively
to children in north america. Aside from Duckman, Captain Star, and The
Head (and two of those are not North American), all other shows are
kid's shows that happent to have intelligent writers.
But it's true, fery vew in North Marica have taken animation as a
serious dramatic work of art. The Iron Giant is the closest I've seen
in this regard.
If and when the american market begins accepting animated shows as more
than 'little kid shows', and a market larger than 'anime and comic book
fans' emerges, you'll see better quality material beiing produced.
-kannan
When the going get's tough, and the stomach acids flow
the cold wind of conformity is nipping at your nose
some trendy new atrocity has brought you to your knees
come with us, we'll sail the seas of cheese
(primus)
DAS84J
cartoons shown today are kiddie shows. The few adult cartoon shows have no
reason to have flashy stuff cause its subject matter and story that is worked
on. Anime however has covers many genres and constantly integrates good stories
and fantastic animation.
Skeleton Man
"Invid Fan" <in...@localnet.com> wrote in message news:031120001345131741%
> But, you see, there comes a point where a show is so "real" that it
> should of been made live action. We see alot of anime that has been
> created in that format because it's cheaper then attempting to film a
> live action version. To me, there has to be a REASON that you're doing
> a story in animation, some aspect that just can't be duplicated with
> real actors or sets.
>
That's very true... and should be avoided... Perfect Blue did at least have
some weird aspects that would have been rather difficult in live action (not
impossible by any means, but costly)
I have run into that on two films I worked on now Iand I understand what you
mean... A lot of people say that about Ghost in the Shell, though I disagree
there....
Skeleton Man
"Stephen W. Worth" <big...@spumco.com> wrote in message news:bigshot-
> Seems to me there are a lot of live action films that would fit your
> requirements... and they would probably do a better job of it than
> a stiff, highly realistic animated film would.
>
Depends on how you look at it though... I've known people who say "The Cell"
with Jennifer Lopez would have been better as an anime! (like Perfect Blue I
guess)
Also, a film like Jin Roh is incredibly realistic but still "captivating" as
animated images... (the animation style (not looks but motion) is very
different from any other film too and it is far from stiff) I wouldn't trade
this particular example for live action... The writer himself says it could
not have been done live action...
Kannan Vijayan
>
> Please add those that I forgot.
>
>
> Batman:TAS
> Gargoyles
> "New" Batman
> Batman Beyond (1999-2000?)
> Superman (1998-2000?)
> Exosquad
> Wing Commander Academy
> Savage Dragon
> The Tick
> Beast Wars
> Reboot (1997-1999?)
> Starship Troopers (1999-2000?)
> CyberSix -not SabanSix- (2000-?)
Dont forget:
The Powerpuff Girls
Dexter's Lab
Duckman
The Head (this one is an independent I think)
Captain Star
Eek the Cat
PPG's & Dexter's animation is something I like a lot. Extremely crisp
style. Storylines are episodic, but kickass nonetheless.
Duckman and The Head have similar animation styles too, but not that
fantastic. The writing for the shows on the other hand, is pretty
cool.
I dont know where Captain Star is playing. It's odd. I dont know why
it's good, but it's good.
Eek (along with the Terrible Thunder Lizards) is one of my all-time
favourites, although it all went to hell after Klutter. The writing for
the show was dynamite.
> That is largely untrue in the US (and Canada too?), unfortunately. But
> no one has written American/Canadian animation off... we want it to
> catch up. But the question here is... will it? Or will it not break
> the glass ceiling for a while? Change happens slowly, by generation.
> Will it take much longer? Another decade?
>
>
>
> --
> -Mari K.
> "New leadership for a new American Century -- Kenneth Yamaoka for
> President!"
The difference between North American animation and Anime are not just
stylistic or skill-based. It has a lot to do with culture. North
America is not helped by the fact that cartoons have been exclusively
aimed at kids forever (with a few rare exceptions). Despite this, some
extremely good shows have come around, with reasonable success.
It's not a matter of a glass ceiling. When North America decides to
target adults for animations, you'll see a lot more stuff that is worth
watching. And it wont be the same as anime, but that's all for the
better. I havn't seen an anime yet that matches the biting commentary
on duckman, the campy goodness of PPG, or the simply bizzare plots in
Captain Star or The Head.
-kannan
James 'Tengu' King
> The Head (this one is an independent I think)
I thought we were looking for GOOD US shows.
> Captain Star
This one's British, actually.
--
James 'Tengu' King - The Tanuki of Total Bewilderment
"Hello, Mr. Postmodern"
-Lyabibrave referring to me on r.a.a.m.
Visit the Anime Tangents Page: http://westwood.fortunecity.com/smith/467/
Desperate, for something to touch
A moment of kindness like that in a dream
Your innocent eyes, have yet no idea
of the path your destiny will follow...
- Cruel Angel's Thesis - English Translation
Bruce Grubb
>Keeping things short and sweet for now. More later.
>
>In article <8ttehc$f8r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Mari-chan <mar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> Reboot (1997-1999?)
>
>1994-1995 on ABC.
Accually Reboot has three seasons. The first two were shown on ABC while the
third showed on Cartoon Network c1999.
>I'll add:
>
>Phantom 2040 (1994-5) for being the sharpest animated sci-fi series
>ever, bar none.
Except the ending was majorly lame; it was obvious that the writers needed to
wrap up the series in a hurry and the resulting episode was highly illogial
in both character deveopment and plot.
I should mention that Aeon Flux which showed on MTV was done by the same
person that did Phantom 2040
>Extreme Ghostbusters (1997) for unheard-of consistency over 40+ eps,
>and proving that a limited franchise and a revival weak concept can
>STILL be the foundation for a quality show.
The only problem this show had was that it was synidicated which in my area
tends to mean 'we will show it any time we want no matter how little sence it
makes'. 9:00 AM weekdays was a real stupid time to show something like this.
>Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat, season 1 (1995) for proving that old-
>school visual narrative can still kick your momma's behind with enough
>imagination.
I think I saw this but it got the crazy sceduling treatment so I lost track
of -when- the local station was even showing it.
AFAIK this didn't even show up in our area or it it did the station were real
quite about it.
>Animaniacs (1994-1998) for proving the other end of the comedy spectrum
>isn't as dead as the old-school types would have you believe, and for
>getting antipathetic types believing in the concept of adult animation.
>
>The Maxx, the best animated product I've ever seen, period. It
>integrates a dark comic tone into the drama that even the best anime
>I've seen has never accomplished without devolving into slapstick (NGE,
>for starters), and features such effective use of postmodernism that A-
>list, live-action filmmakers should take notice.
Another MTV cartoon which IIRC was reshown on HBO.
Slithy Tove
wrote:
>On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:48:40 -0800, "Skeleton Man"
><skel...@planetbone.com> wrote:
>
>>I can understand where you're coming from, but I have no desire to EVER see
>>such a show... What I want to see is an American show which can have the
>>level of realism of Perfect Blue... or play as down-to-earth as Patlabor
>>2... Doesn't have to be like anime, but I would like to see something even
>>remotely engaging... PoE is really the closest I've seen to true drama in
>>American animation... where the people ACT like real people....
>>
>>I want to see something like that in the REAL modern world... with some
>>action/adventure thrown in of course...
>
>The only anime I've ever seen that approaches the "real" world is
>"Serial Experiments Lain." It's the only one I've seen that takes
>place in a modestly ordinary world, with ordinary people.
Whoa. What world do you live in, exactly?
For real-world anime try Maison Ikkoku, YUA, Yawara, Oniisama e.
== Tove
--
Will no one tell me what she sings?
Perhaps the plaintive numbers flow
For old, unhappy, far-off things,
And battles long ago.
Ronixis
>And no, I'm not into the animated wrestling stuff like DBZ and Ninja
>Scroll.
>> The Tick
>> Beast Wars
>
>Frankly, I think all three American TF series have their qualities. I
>defend Beast Machines nowadays because the storyline's tighter and the
>universe more coherent than anything the franchise has attempted. I'm
>not partciularly excited by the show, but it's as admirable as a "30-
>minute toy commercial" can be expected to be.
>> Reboot (1997-1999?)
>
>1994-1995 on ABC.
>
>> Starship Troopers (1999-2000?)
>> CyberSix -not SabanSix- (2000-?)
>
>As impressive as Cybersix looks, things don't seem to be building the
>way I would've hoped. It's consistent without being involving right
>now.
>
>I'll add:
>
>Phantom 2040 (1994-5) for being the sharpest animated sci-fi series
>ever, bar none.
>Extreme Ghostbusters (1997) for unheard-of consistency over 40+ eps,
>and proving that a limited franchise and a revival weak concept can
>STILL be the foundation for a quality show.
>Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat, season 1 (1995) for proving that old-
>school visual narrative can still kick your momma's behind with enough
>imagination.
>Animaniacs (1994-1998) for proving the other end of the comedy spectrum
>isn't as dead as the old-school types would have you believe, and for
>getting antipathetic types believing in the concept of adult animation.
>The Maxx, the best animated product I've ever seen, period. It
>integrates a dark comic tone into the drama that even the best anime
>I've seen has never accomplished without devolving into slapstick (NGE,
>for starters), and features such effective use of postmodernism that A-
>list, live-action filmmakers should take notice.
>> I really wish I could arrange this chronologically... but I can't yet.
>> When it is, I hope this gives us a better picture of things.
>
>Heavy leanings toward action/adventure series on your list. No
>complaints from me, but it mentions a concern of mine that American
>animation really needs to delve more into character comedy. The two
>volumes of Here is Greenwood is a perfect example (just caught the
>series, and it's a real low-key gem).
>
>> (I didn't put Spawn on the list... if you want to add it and debate
>> it's addition, go ahead -- I haven't seen enough of it or heard enough
>> about it to decide, although what little I know leaves me with a
>> negative impression)
>
>What you'll see might not impress you, but your list might suggest
>otherwise. My main beef is that it's dull. The Maxx'll set you
>straight.
>> That is largely untrue in the US (and Canada too?), unfortunately.
>But
>> no one has written American/Canadian animation off... we want it to
>> catch up. <
>
>I don't want American animation to be like anime. Anime is for
>Japanese audiences and is enjoyed by guys like me because it's
>translated from that cultural standard. I want both regional
>executions of the medium to improve in their own ways. I want more
>American dramas like Clockers. I want more Japanese dramas like Miyu.
>I'm not sure if I want a manga ka[?] to go the Spike Lee route.
>> But the question here is... will it? Or will it not break
>> the glass ceiling for a while? Change happens slowly, by generation.
>> Will it take much longer? Another decade?
>On the action/adventure front, what's gonna advance the bounds of
>storytelling the way Batman did? Personally, I'm looking for
>continuity, dialogue with a natural cadence, and character
>relationships with depth. Still waiting for that.
Here are shows I like:
Buzz LightYear: I really like the way this has a TEN TIMES BETTER character intercation that any Animation show now (With the exepion of Batman Beyond, Static Shock...) Hell, its better than X-Men Evolution.
Skeleton Warriors: This show is beautiful (Done by Graz Animation) And has a good storyline, and was the closest to the ThunderCats (At the time)
And Most of What Terrence and Mari shows.
Ronixis
TriggerCross MB is now Online at
http://pub32.ezboard.com/btriggercross
Ronixis
>And no, I'm not into the animated wrestling stuff like DBZ and Ninja
>Scroll.
>> The Tick
>> Beast Wars
>
>Frankly, I think all three American TF series have their qualities. I
>defend Beast Machines nowadays because the storyline's tighter and the
>universe more coherent than anything the franchise has attempted. I'm
>not partciularly excited by the show, but it's as admirable as a "30-
>minute toy commercial" can be expected to be.
>
>1994-1995 on ABC.
>
>> Starship Troopers (1999-2000?)
>> CyberSix -not SabanSix- (2000-?)
>
>As impressive as Cybersix looks, things don't seem to be building the
>way I would've hoped. It's consistent without being involving right
>now.
>
>I'll add:
>
>Phantom 2040 (1994-5) for being the sharpest animated sci-fi series
>ever, bar none.
>and proving that a limited franchise and a revival weak concept can
>STILL be the foundation for a quality show.
>Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat, season 1 (1995) for proving that old-
>school visual narrative can still kick your momma's behind with enough
>imagination.
>isn't as dead as the old-school types would have you believe, and for
>getting antipathetic types believing in the concept of adult animation.
>integrates a dark comic tone into the drama that even the best anime
>I've seen has never accomplished without devolving into slapstick (NGE,
>for starters), and features such effective use of postmodernism that A-
>list, live-action filmmakers should take notice.
>> When it is, I hope this gives us a better picture of things.
>
>Heavy leanings toward action/adventure series on your list. No
>complaints from me, but it mentions a concern of mine that American
>animation really needs to delve more into character comedy. The two
>volumes of Here is Greenwood is a perfect example (just caught the
>series, and it's a real low-key gem).
>
>> (I didn't put Spawn on the list... if you want to add it and debate
>> it's addition, go ahead -- I haven't seen enough of it or heard enough
>> about it to decide, although what little I know leaves me with a
>> negative impression)
>
>What you'll see might not impress you, but your list might suggest
>otherwise. My main beef is that it's dull. The Maxx'll set you
>straight.
>But
>> no one has written American/Canadian animation off... we want it to
>> catch up. <
>
>I don't want American animation to be like anime. Anime is for
>Japanese audiences and is enjoyed by guys like me because it's
>translated from that cultural standard. I want both regional
>executions of the medium to improve in their own ways. I want more
>American dramas like Clockers. I want more Japanese dramas like Miyu.
>I'm not sure if I want a manga ka[?] to go the Spike Lee route.
>> the glass ceiling for a while? Change happens slowly, by generation.
>> Will it take much longer? Another decade?
>storytelling the way Batman did? Personally, I'm looking for
>continuity, dialogue with a natural cadence, and character
>relationships with depth. Still waiting for that.
Ronixis
>And no, I'm not into the animated wrestling stuff like DBZ and Ninja
>Scroll.
>> The Tick
>> Beast Wars
>
>Frankly, I think all three American TF series have their qualities. I
>defend Beast Machines nowadays because the storyline's tighter and the
>universe more coherent than anything the franchise has attempted. I'm
>not partciularly excited by the show, but it's as admirable as a "30-
>minute toy commercial" can be expected to be.
>
>1994-1995 on ABC.
>
>> Starship Troopers (1999-2000?)
>> CyberSix -not SabanSix- (2000-?)
>
>As impressive as Cybersix looks, things don't seem to be building the
>way I would've hoped. It's consistent without being involving right
>now.
>
>I'll add:
>
>Phantom 2040 (1994-5) for being the sharpest animated sci-fi series
>ever, bar none.
>and proving that a limited franchise and a revival weak concept can
>STILL be the foundation for a quality show.
>Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat, season 1 (1995) for proving that old-
>school visual narrative can still kick your momma's behind with enough
>imagination.
>isn't as dead as the old-school types would have you believe, and for
>getting antipathetic types believing in the concept of adult animation.
>integrates a dark comic tone into the drama that even the best anime
>I've seen has never accomplished without devolving into slapstick (NGE,
>for starters), and features such effective use of postmodernism that A-
>list, live-action filmmakers should take notice.
>> When it is, I hope this gives us a better picture of things.
>
>Heavy leanings toward action/adventure series on your list. No
>complaints from me, but it mentions a concern of mine that American
>animation really needs to delve more into character comedy. The two
>volumes of Here is Greenwood is a perfect example (just caught the
>series, and it's a real low-key gem).
>
>> (I didn't put Spawn on the list... if you want to add it and debate
>> it's addition, go ahead -- I haven't seen enough of it or heard enough
>> about it to decide, although what little I know leaves me with a
>> negative impression)
>
>What you'll see might not impress you, but your list might suggest
>otherwise. My main beef is that it's dull. The Maxx'll set you
>straight.
>But
>> no one has written American/Canadian animation off... we want it to
>> catch up. <
>
>I don't want American animation to be like anime. Anime is for
>Japanese audiences and is enjoyed by guys like me because it's
>translated from that cultural standard. I want both regional
>executions of the medium to improve in their own ways. I want more
>American dramas like Clockers. I want more Japanese dramas like Miyu.
>I'm not sure if I want a manga ka[?] to go the Spike Lee route.
>> the glass ceiling for a while? Change happens slowly, by generation.
>> Will it take much longer? Another decade?
>storytelling the way Batman did? Personally, I'm looking for
>continuity, dialogue with a natural cadence, and character
>relationships with depth. Still waiting for that.
Ronixis
>And no, I'm not into the animated wrestling stuff like DBZ and Ninja
>Scroll.
>> The Tick
>> Beast Wars
>
>Frankly, I think all three American TF series have their qualities. I
>defend Beast Machines nowadays because the storyline's tighter and the
>universe more coherent than anything the franchise has attempted. I'm
>not partciularly excited by the show, but it's as admirable as a "30-
>minute toy commercial" can be expected to be.
>
>1994-1995 on ABC.
>
>> Starship Troopers (1999-2000?)
>> CyberSix -not SabanSix- (2000-?)
>
>As impressive as Cybersix looks, things don't seem to be building the
>way I would've hoped. It's consistent without being involving right
>now.
>
>I'll add:
>
>Phantom 2040 (1994-5) for being the sharpest animated sci-fi series
>ever, bar none.
>and proving that a limited franchise and a revival weak concept can
>STILL be the foundation for a quality show.
>Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat, season 1 (1995) for proving that old-
>school visual narrative can still kick your momma's behind with enough
>imagination.
>isn't as dead as the old-school types would have you believe, and for
>getting antipathetic types believing in the concept of adult animation.
>integrates a dark comic tone into the drama that even the best anime
>I've seen has never accomplished without devolving into slapstick (NGE,
>for starters), and features such effective use of postmodernism that A-
>list, live-action filmmakers should take notice.
>> When it is, I hope this gives us a better picture of things.
>
>Heavy leanings toward action/adventure series on your list. No
>complaints from me, but it mentions a concern of mine that American
>animation really needs to delve more into character comedy. The two
>volumes of Here is Greenwood is a perfect example (just caught the
>series, and it's a real low-key gem).
>
>> (I didn't put Spawn on the list... if you want to add it and debate
>> it's addition, go ahead -- I haven't seen enough of it or heard enough
>> about it to decide, although what little I know leaves me with a
>> negative impression)
>
>What you'll see might not impress you, but your list might suggest
>otherwise. My main beef is that it's dull. The Maxx'll set you
>straight.
>But
>> no one has written American/Canadian animation off... we want it to
>> catch up. <
>
>I don't want American animation to be like anime. Anime is for
>Japanese audiences and is enjoyed by guys like me because it's
>translated from that cultural standard. I want both regional
>executions of the medium to improve in their own ways. I want more
>American dramas like Clockers. I want more Japanese dramas like Miyu.
>I'm not sure if I want a manga ka[?] to go the Spike Lee route.
>> the glass ceiling for a while? Change happens slowly, by generation.
>> Will it take much longer? Another decade?
>storytelling the way Batman did? Personally, I'm looking for
>continuity, dialogue with a natural cadence, and character
>relationships with depth. Still waiting for that.
Ronixis
>And no, I'm not into the animated wrestling stuff like DBZ and Ninja
>Scroll.
>> The Tick
>> Beast Wars
>
>Frankly, I think all three American TF series have their qualities. I
>defend Beast Machines nowadays because the storyline's tighter and the
>universe more coherent than anything the franchise has attempted. I'm
>not partciularly excited by the show, but it's as admirable as a "30-
>minute toy commercial" can be expected to be.
>
>1994-1995 on ABC.
>
>> Starship Troopers (1999-2000?)
>> CyberSix -not SabanSix- (2000-?)
>
>As impressive as Cybersix looks, things don't seem to be building the
>way I would've hoped. It's consistent without being involving right
>now.
>
>I'll add:
>
>Phantom 2040 (1994-5) for being the sharpest animated sci-fi series
>ever, bar none.
>and proving that a limited franchise and a revival weak concept can
>STILL be the foundation for a quality show.
>Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat, season 1 (1995) for proving that old-
>school visual narrative can still kick your momma's behind with enough
>imagination.
>isn't as dead as the old-school types would have you believe, and for
>getting antipathetic types believing in the concept of adult animation.
>integrates a dark comic tone into the drama that even the best anime
>I've seen has never accomplished without devolving into slapstick (NGE,
>for starters), and features such effective use of postmodernism that A-
>list, live-action filmmakers should take notice.
>> When it is, I hope this gives us a better picture of things.
>
>Heavy leanings toward action/adventure series on your list. No
>complaints from me, but it mentions a concern of mine that American
>animation really needs to delve more into character comedy. The two
>volumes of Here is Greenwood is a perfect example (just caught the
>series, and it's a real low-key gem).
>
>> (I didn't put Spawn on the list... if you want to add it and debate
>> it's addition, go ahead -- I haven't seen enough of it or heard enough
>> about it to decide, although what little I know leaves me with a
>> negative impression)
>
>What you'll see might not impress you, but your list might suggest
>otherwise. My main beef is that it's dull. The Maxx'll set you
>straight.
>But
>> no one has written American/Canadian animation off... we want it to
>> catch up. <
>
>I don't want American animation to be like anime. Anime is for
>Japanese audiences and is enjoyed by guys like me because it's
>translated from that cultural standard. I want both regional
>executions of the medium to improve in their own ways. I want more
>American dramas like Clockers. I want more Japanese dramas like Miyu.
>I'm not sure if I want a manga ka[?] to go the Spike Lee route.
>> the glass ceiling for a while? Change happens slowly, by generation.
>> Will it take much longer? Another decade?
>storytelling the way Batman did? Personally, I'm looking for
>continuity, dialogue with a natural cadence, and character
>relationships with depth. Still waiting for that.
A Shelton
<Snip - several hundred lines of text>
I don't have anything to add...I just wanted to show ronixis how to delete
text that has nothing to do with his reply. Although posting the reply
multiple times was also a nice touch.
There's also this cool trick called breaking lines at 80 characters!
> Here are shows I like:
> Buzz LightYear: I really like the way this has a TEN TIMES BETTER
character intercation that any Animation show now (With the exepion
of Batman Beyond, Static Shock...) Hell, its better than X-Men Evolution.
> Skeleton Warriors: This show is beautiful (Done by Graz Animation)
And has a good storyline, and was the closest to the ThunderCats (At the
time)
> And Most of What Terrence and Mari shows.
> Ronixis
> TriggerCross MB is now Online at
> http://pub32.ezboard.com/btriggercross
You owe me for replacement carriage-returns and wear and tear on my
delete key.
--
Apparently I'm insane, but I'm one of the happy kinds. (dilbert)
Andrew Shelton ashe...@cs.rmit.edu.au
GCS(2.1)-d+H+sw+v-C++UL+>L+++E-N++WV--R++tv-b+D++e+fr*y?
Mari-chan
> As long as the "best" of American animation lacks in a few areas
> (consistency, continuity, character, etc.), the "glass ceiling" will
be
> a fantasy. I don't believe in glass celings with respect to
narratives
> anyway.
I meant a "glass cieling" in that animation outside of that targeted
towards kiddies, "juvenile adults", etc. and all-ages-fantasy
and sitcoms has rarely been done or not at all, thus chances aren't
taken in attempting it.
> Entertaining as the new Batman series are, the WB series are more
> symptomatic of "hitting a rut" and "sticking to the basics" than a
true
> evolution in my eyes.
You've hit it exactly on the mark. I never meant to imply they were
evolutions... at best, they are retreads, and at worst, devolutions.
Sad thing is they make the list IMHO because they are still among some
of the best animated series's on TV today.
> I really liked the second season of Savage Dragon (95-96), but if
> you're gonna include that, I'm including Biker Mice From Mars and
> WildCATS. For better or worse, I haven't seen an anime ac/adv series
> that compares on the pure entertainment level.
I included it because I've heard many others speak well of it. I saw
very little myself, too little to judge.
I agree WildCATS was a lot of brainless fun. Didn't like Biker Mice
too much... it seemed little better than a TMNT retread, although I
only saw a few episodes.
If you want to drag anime into this, my personal preferences lie more
with long-running continuity with a payoff, rather than pure
episodic "fun" episodes. But for comparison, I'd say (the english
dubbed, to be fair) Tenchi OAV's, even Tenchi Universe, and certainly
Slayers are better than WildCATS or BikerMice.
> And no, I'm not into the animated wrestling stuff like DBZ and Ninja
> Scroll.
Neither am I. (Is NinjaScroll "animated wrestling"? I can say a lot
of negative things about it but not that. With DBZ the comment is so
dead on, though) Why bring this up?
> As impressive as Cybersix looks, things don't seem to be building the
> way I would've hoped. It's consistent without being involving right
> now.
True. Let us all wait for the season finale. Which may or may not be
screwed up by Fox's SabanSix. Plus it gets props for starring a female
cross-dresser.
> Phantom 2040 (1994-5) for being the sharpest animated sci-fi series
> ever, bar none.
Never saw it, thanks for adding.
> Extreme Ghostbusters (1997) for unheard-of consistency over 40+ eps,
> and proving that a limited franchise and a revival weak concept can
> STILL be the foundation for a quality show.
Unheard-of? There were no long-running plot threads that I could
find. If you want long-running consistency, Starship Troopers is
better, and Exosquad definitely is. I didn't like it that much anyway,
and if one is going to include this, one might as well include
Godzilla:The Series.
Oh, that reminds me! I forgot Men In Black! (1998-2000 ?)
> Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat, season 1 (1995) for proving that old-
> school visual narrative can still kick your momma's behind with enough
> imagination.
I feel bad for missing this.
> Animaniacs (1994-1998) for proving the other end of the comedy
spectrum
> isn't as dead as the old-school types would have you believe, and for
> getting antipathetic types believing in the concept of adult
animation.
Animaniacs disappointed me. It pretty much took off on Tiny Toon's
cultural-reference humor and overdid it to death. Still inspired
moments, but a whole lot of mediocrity as well. Compare how weak the
sentai-giant-robot-team parody (SuperStrongWarnerSiblings!) was to
Reboot's (NullZilla). Buttons and Mindy, The Goodfeathers were funny
twice, that's about it. Still, the songs are classic (Countries of the
World!).
Oh, that reminds me! I forgot Freakazoid! (1998 ?)
> The Maxx, the best animated product I've ever seen, period. It
> integrates a dark comic tone into the drama that even the best anime
> I've seen has never accomplished without devolving into slapstick
(NGE,
> for starters), and features such effective use of postmodernism that
A-
> list, live-action filmmakers should take notice.
Wow! I'm really sorry I missed this. And yes, NGE was very weak when
it devolved into slapstick (except ep. 26, which worked against the
tone)... but I tolerated it because a lot of it was genre parody. Plus
it was all gone it the latter half, which was the point, I suppose.
Anyway, I never detected a dark "comic" tone in NGE... did I miss
something? The comedy and bleak nihilistic "everything really sucks"
bits seemed pretty separate. Seems like a flawed comparison. Ok,
enough OT.
> Heavy leanings toward action/adventure series on your list. No
> complaints from me, but it mentions a concern of mine that American
> animation really needs to delve more into character comedy. The two
> volumes of Here is Greenwood is a perfect example (just caught the
> series, and it's a real low-key gem).
Well, that is because most of the series I and most others recognize as
good and ground-breaking (often for their dramatic element) are
action/adventure shows... with strong dramatic components. I have no
love of action/adventure by themselves.
I like action when it's well-done, but personally, that isn't my
preference. I like comedy, and I like good drama, and I like some good
romance. Comedy and Romance are in short supply. I did include The
Tick on the list... but that's about the best we have had. The best
Dramatic series seemingly have to have some action every episode (have
to cater to the kiddies somehow), e.g. Batman, Gargoyles, Exosquad
(though that's space opera, really).
You are very right. Where are the ensemble comedy shows? The low-key
domestic situation dramas (like sit-coms, but The Simpsons and it's ilk
have already pigenholed that term into something else). And Koko wa
Greenwood is a great example of what would be nice to have, but no one
wants to make.
> > As for films, some say Titan A.E. might have changed things... had
it
> > not really, really, sucked (we can get into who's to blame for that
> > also... Don Bluth, Bill Mechanic, Ben Edlund / Joss Whedon, the
> > editors, etc.)
>
> Given the jibes taken toward the same=ol' same-ol' story TAE had, how
> revolutionary could it be? Even Star Ward felt like something fresh
to
> the average filmgoer back in the 70s.
Changed things in that it was supposed to be aimed at Teens, rather
than kiddies or all-ages? Of course, I'm not sure that's a good thing,
but it would have been something *different*. I started not hoping for
much once the early reports of it being "very cliched" rolled in,
however. Looks like not even Edlund and Whedon can save cliches from
becoming dreck.
> If Beauty and the Beast and Aladdin cemented the revival (sorry
Derek),
> and Lion King made it The Word, stuff like Tarzan may keep the teens
> and young adults who grew up on the revival flicks coming back for
> more. Anime or otherwise.
>
> > Disney's CG studio's Dinosaur. Looks nice in some ways, but no
> > advancement in plot. Nothing special. Wasted opportunity, perhaps.
>
> Completely wasted. Why slop $200 million on a bunch of photorealistic
> talking heads? Final Fantasy'd better not go that route. Btter not
be
> faithful to the souce material either...
Why?
And I agree on the wasted effort part. Though I think the quest for
photorealism is interesting and may be a worthwhile quest, though
unsuccessful. It shows what *can* be done and that's important.
> Antz was a stepping stone. PoE showed real potential. Haven't seen
> RtED. Chicken Run's story was lacking, but was one of the most
> enjoyable comedies I've seen in a while. Like Antz, this won really
> won over the adults.
Stepping stone to what? Or do you mean as a first feature?
Don't see RtED if you haven't.
Aardman's strength is never in their stories. CR didn't come to mind
because it's stop motion though... not that I don't love stop motion,
but it wasn't what I was thinking of. And it's British. And it's no
more Dreamworks than Toy Story is Disney.
I'm an adult, and AntZ didn't really win me over. It was ok, but like
a house built out of matchstick cliches... or something like that.
> I didn't care much for Batman: Mask of the Phantasm, but everyone
> else'll hang you from the rafters for ignoring it (even though both
> flicks were b.o. stinkers, ne?)
I forgot about the Batman flicks. I guess I meant WB feature
animation... Batman:MotP was still their TV department, as it was done
as a Video release first, then rushed up to theatrical. I liked it as
a really well-done atmospheric Noir Batman film... and the best Batman
film made... but yeah, I didn't *love* it either. Just no emotional
impact or involvement. But for style and theme, it was a
breakthrough. And it was a B.O. stinker because it had a promotional
budget of approximately $45 and was released to maybe even less
theatres than Princess Mononoke. They just buried it, plain and simple.
> Stagnant as Disney's been, I still wanted more than an admirably
> animated take on E.T. Maybe the average Joe thought the whole deal
was
> ho-hum.
I loved it. I didn't much care for E.T. -- felt far more superficial
to me. I thought it *magical* (to use the dreaded adjective)... but
either it affected you or it didn't. No middle ground here.
> > Heavy Metal, both the original and 2000, were just keeping up the
> > Bashiki tradition of wannabe "adult" decidedly non-mainstream badly
> > animated crapfests. In other words, they didn't change a thing, and
> > certainly did nothing for animation as a whole.
>
> Gave a certainl group of aniamtion fans something to look at.
Ugly and badly animated violence... and... breasts. Umm, yay. I'm
glad desperate HM comic fanboys got to see an animated rendition of
Julie Strain's breasts. Because otherwise they'd be doing something
even less productive... like posting on USENET, say ;)
> Bug's Life is probably the best example here. The story was hardly
> worth a half-penny, but Lasseter's still a genius. A million gags a
> minute in that, and every Pixar flick.
Just as cliched as Antz's, but better in every way. Didn't rely on the
cliches... maybe that was it?
> > Square Studio's Final Fantasy could change things, as far as CG
> > goes. Maybe. Or it could be Titan AE. <
>
> Or Dinosaur.
Natch. Better not think of that. Too painful to contemplate.
> Enirque Conty mentioned how the lack of a quality live action
> filmmaking industry forces Japanese artists to go that route.
> Apparently, they built an acceptance in the process.
That may have been true then, it may be true now... maybe. I don't
like to make generalizations about other countries like that (saying
all their live-action films suck). Well, if it were true, there would
be a huge crossover of live-action talent into animation. Anyone know
if this is true?
> I don't want American animation to be like anime. Anime is for
> Japanese audiences and is enjoyed by guys like me because it's
> translated from that cultural standard. I want both regional
> executions of the medium to improve in their own ways. I want more
> American dramas like Clockers. I want more Japanese dramas like Miyu.
> I'm not sure if I want a manga ka[?] to go the Spike Lee route.
I didn't mean that. I meant for american animation to break out of the
tiny "bubbles" (if you will) of plot, theme, story, and content that it
seems to be largely mired in. Not for it to become culturally and
geographically stationed in Japan.
I.E. no primetime animation unless it's a sitcom, the lack of comedy
and romance, etc.
I want more drama like Miyu also.
While I think animated Spike Lee films would be interesting, they're
not highest on my list (nothing against Mr. Lee).
> > But the question here is... will it? Or will it not break
> > the glass ceiling for a while? Change happens slowly, by
generation.
> > Will it take much longer? Another decade?
>
> On the action/adventure front, what's gonna advance the bounds of
> storytelling the way Batman did? Personally, I'm looking for
> continuity, dialogue with a natural cadence, and character
> relationships with depth. Still waiting for that.
How about something with drama as good as the best Batman drama, action
as good as the best Batman action (but not a focus nor a reliance on
it), animation as good as the best animated episodes of Batman, the
continuity and long-running threads that Batman lacked... and engaging
and (sometimes at least) fun characters.
Shown prime time, perhaps, too?
Mari-chan
Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote:
> The only problem this show had was that it was synidicated which in
my area
> tends to mean 'we will show it any time we want no matter how little
sence it
> makes'. 9:00 AM weekdays was a real stupid time to show something
like this.
Try 3 AM on the SciFi channel. Surprising I got to see as much of it
as I did.
Mari-chan
> Dont forget:
>
> The Powerpuff Girls
> Dexter's Lab
> Duckman
> The Head (this one is an independent I think)
> Captain Star
> Eek the Cat
> PPG's & Dexter's animation is something I like a lot. Extremely crisp
> style. Storylines are episodic, but kickass nonetheless.
I like both shows... but not that much. But a lot of people, you
included, probably do.
> Duckman and The Head have similar animation styles too, but not that
> fantastic. The writing for the shows on the other hand, is pretty
> cool.
Duckman was the most assinine, juvenile wannabe-adult sitcom I ever
saw. Still, sometimes funny, and I did like Cornfed. But the "hey, a
vibrator -- hey, a giant blow up doll -- *snicker*snicker* -- this is
funny stuff!" adolescent-level jokes were cringe-worthy.
The Head? That was good? How?
> I dont know where Captain Star is playing. It's odd. I dont know why
> it's good, but it's good.
Never heard of it. Sounds interesting.
> Eek (along with the Terrible Thunder Lizards) is one of my all-time
> favourites, although it all went to hell after Klutter. The writing
for
> the show was dynamite.
Thanks for reminding me! Eek was much less consistent, but the only
thing close to The Tick. I remember the one where Sharky takes the
mind-altering medication and has a trippy vision... hilarious. TTL was
horrible, though, IMHO.
And please don't go for the "it's the cultural superiority" thing.
> -kannan
Mari-chan
tom...@sundial.net wrote:
> The only anime I've ever seen that approaches the "real" world is
> "Serial Experiments Lain." It's the only one I've seen that takes
> place in a modestly ordinary world, with ordinary people.
You haven't seen much of it then, have you? Nor much anime, for that
matter. There are plenty that essentially focus on real people with
more or less realistic problems (not too many get released in the west,
though)... Lain is not one of them.
> I could also point out that the "REAL modern world...with some
> action/acventure thrown of course..." is patently false. To use a
> real-world comparison, what would you call "real"? "Lethal Weapon" or
> "True Lies" or "Get Carter" or "Charlie's Angels"? How about film noir
> like "The Hitch-Hiker" or "Gun Crazy"? The only thing close to "real
> world" circumstances would have to be something like "Backdraft."
Backdraft, huh? How about "Brave Firefighter!" or whatever it was?
But you're on the right track... think Hollywood dramas rather than
action/adventure though.
> Now, as far as a "glass ceiling," isn't it possible that anime has a
> pretty good one, too? How many anime series are recycled versions of
> previous shows? About as many as American cartoons, I'd bet, since
> Sturgeon's Law applies to them too.
I never said it didn't. Sturgeons law applies just as well. Of
course, since more animation is made overall, there is more crap, but
also more gems. Cuts both ways.
> You know, rather than looking for "ground breaking" cartoons, or
> something to shock you out of your shorts, animation fans might find
> it more satisfying to realize that everybody pretty much works with
> the same basic materials, and to find the people who work best with
> those mateirals. Like, f'rinstance, Warner makes a lot of superhero
> cartoons...but Paul Dini (for example) does more interesting stuff
> with superheroes than anyone else. Or for anime, somebody like Monkey
> Punch has nailed the rogue character with "Lupin III" better than
> anyone else.
I never said groundbreaking==shocking. That's for Heavy Metal fans.
To me, a quiet, slowly-paced, realistic animated drama series on TV
would be "groundbreaking".
Yeah, Dini makes rather good Superhero-Action-Dramas. That's fine.
But what about the Dramas without the "Superhero-Action"?
That's what I am talking about. Some types of shows just *don't get
made*. Period. In Japan, they may be an occasional small minority
amongst the mountains of crap, but they *do get made*.
--
-Mari K.
"New leadership for a new American Century -- Kenneth Yamaoka for
President!"
Mari-chan
big...@spumco.com (Stephen W. Worth) wrote:
> Seems to me there are a lot of live action films that would fit your
> requirements... and they would probably do a better job of it than
> a stiff, highly realistic animated film would.
>
> See ya
> Steve
What's wrong with stiff, ultra-realistic looking animation?
--
-Mari K.
"New leadership for a new American Century -- Kenneth Yamaoka for
President!"
Mari-chan
Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
> But, you see, there comes a point where a show is so "real" that it
> should of been made live action. We see alot of anime that has been
> created in that format because it's cheaper then attempting to film a
> live action version. To me, there has to be a REASON that you're doing
> a story in animation, some aspect that just can't be duplicated with
> real actors or sets.
>
> --
> Chris Mack
Is the fact that it looks far better than live-action would at the same
budget reason enough? Provided they chose a nice visual style, of
course. This is subjective, naturally.
--
-Mari K.
"New leadership for a new American Century -- Kenneth Yamaoka for
President!"
mrm...@my-deja.com
"Ronixis" <po...@194.244.16.114> wrote:
>
> tbr...@trinity.edu wrote:
> >Keeping things short and sweet for now. More later.
> >
> >In article <8ttehc$f8r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Mari-chan <mar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
<snip>
> >> The Tick
> >> Beast Wars
> >
> >Frankly, I think all three American TF series have their qualities.
I
> >defend Beast Machines nowadays because the storyline's tighter and
the
> >universe more coherent than anything the franchise has attempted.
I'm
> >not partciularly excited by the show, but it's as admirable as a "30-
> >minute toy commercial" can be expected to be.
> What?... Its a Fanfic Story. Pure and Simple
That's probably why the stories go the length they do to EXPLAIN the
universe in which it exists. instead of using it simply as a backdrop
for robot combat scenes the way the worst eps of TF did.
<snip>
> >The Maxx, the best animated product I've ever seen, period. It
> >integrates a dark comic tone into the drama that even the best anime
> >I've seen has never accomplished without devolving into slapstick
(NGE,
> >for starters), and features such effective use of postmodernism that
A-
> >list, live-action filmmakers should take notice.
> I wish I seen that show.
If there's a Blockbuster near you, it might have it. Every one I've
visited does. MAxx fanatics who caught the series on MTV are probably
still boycotting the video for the stuff it cut from the tv run (due to
time constraints for a 2-hour tape, and their presumed cheapness for
not getting a 150-minute tape).
<snip>
> 3 things must happen (IMO): Spawn or Maxx gets air time on SatAM <
Not looking forward to THAT possibility. Why not a primetime or late-
night deal on a basic cable network, a la South Park? Or The Maxx? :)
>or ThunderCats Get a new Series, (I may become a conultent if that
happens) <
Gotta say, bud, that I've never read a Thundercats reference in a
discussion about groundbreaking animation before :)
Then again, there was that local/national ad revenue split thing...
>or EVA gets air play on Toonami, <
I say that if Gundam Wing gets some play, Eva mighjt as well. TV
rights might be hard to get, I suppose. How about a nationwide PBS
campaign or somethin'?
>If none of these happen, The Industry will stagnate for not 5, or 10,
bu 50 years. <
Heh. THERE is a prophecy :)
<snip>
> Here are shows I like:
>
> Buzz LightYear: I really like the way this has a TEN TIMES BETTER
character intercation that any Animation show now (With the exepion of
Batman Beyond, Static Shock...) Hell, its better than X-Men Evolution.
You've seen X-Men:E already? It's only Friday.
> Skeleton Warriors: This show is beautiful (Done by Graz Animation) <
Animated by AKOM, actually, but distributed by Graz. The same team was
responsible for X-Men, BTW.
>And has a good storyline, and was the closest to the ThunderCats (At
the time) <
The tone had a lot more to do with X-Men than Thundercats. Heavier on
the melodrama/action combination than anything on the latter.
Terrence Briggs
T."Rufus" Frazier
Vijayan) wrote:
.
>The difference between North American animation and Anime are not just
>stylistic or skill-based. It has a lot to do with culture. North
>America is not helped by the fact that cartoons have been exclusively
>aimed at kids forever (with a few rare exceptions). Despite this, some
>extremely good shows have come around, with reasonable success.
Yes
>
>It's not a matter of a glass ceiling. When North America decides to
>target adults for animations, you'll see a lot more stuff that is worth
>watching.
I disagree. Targeting animation to adults doesn't necessarily make it
high quality. You have to have the best writers and creators want to
work through the medium. Here, adult animation is assumed to
have a small audience and subsequently gets poor resources. In Japan,
the writers tend to be of a higher calibre because they can attract
the best. Animation in Japan is often used instead of live action.
Gainax's "His and Her Circumstances" for example.
And it wont be the same as anime, but that's all for the
>better. I havn't seen an anime yet that matches the biting commentary
>on duckman, the campy goodness of PPG, or the simply bizzare plots in
>Captain Star or The Head.
A lot of good stuff in Japan never makes it over here. There may not
be a Captain Star from Japan, but you won't see anyone producing
"Child's Toy" here either.
Invid Fan
<mar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <031120001345131741%in...@localnet.com>,
> Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
>
>
> > But, you see, there comes a point where a show is so "real" that it
> > should of been made live action. We see alot of anime that has been
> > created in that format because it's cheaper then attempting to film a
> > live action version. To me, there has to be a REASON that you're doing
> > a story in animation, some aspect that just can't be duplicated with
> > real actors or sets.
> >
> > --
> > Chris Mack
>
> Is the fact that it looks far better than live-action would at the same
> budget reason enough? Provided they chose a nice visual style, of
> course. This is subjective, naturally.
>
Unless you just prefer animation to anything live action, I don't think
that's a good reason. Any good director can chose a good visual style
for a live action film.
Kannan Vijayan
> Kannan Said:
>
> > Dont forget:
> >
> > The Powerpuff Girls
> > Dexter's Lab
> > Duckman
> > The Head (this one is an independent I think)
> > Captain Star
> > Eek the Cat
>
> > PPG's & Dexter's animation is something I like a lot. Extremely crisp
> > style. Storylines are episodic, but kickass nonetheless.
>
> I like both shows... but not that much. But a lot of people, you
> included, probably do.
It's not serious, it's extremely campy, but the characters are fun to
follow. And for me, interesting characters makes or breaks a show.
> > Duckman and The Head have similar animation styles too, but not that
> > fantastic. The writing for the shows on the other hand, is pretty
> > cool.
>
> Duckman was the most assinine, juvenile wannabe-adult sitcom I ever
> saw. Still, sometimes funny, and I did like Cornfed. But the "hey, a
> vibrator -- hey, a giant blow up doll -- *snicker*snicker* -- this is
> funny stuff!" adolescent-level jokes were cringe-worthy.
They made a lot of off-color jokes on duckman, but they also provided
some pretty insightful commentaries on everything from politics to the
media to age-old philosophies (one of my favourites is when Ajax takes a
trip to an alien planet and gets them all to worship Duckman as 'Dod')
> The Head? That was good? How?
The head had a well-crafted plot, and some extremely good scenes. For
example the scene with the alien and the little girl on the boat. I
missed a few episodes, but I saw enough to know that I liked it.
> > I dont know where Captain Star is playing. It's odd. I dont know why
> > it's good, but it's good.
>
> Never heard of it. Sounds interesting.
>
> > Eek (along with the Terrible Thunder Lizards) is one of my all-time
> > favourites, although it all went to hell after Klutter. The writing
> for
> > the show was dynamite.
>
> Thanks for reminding me! Eek was much less consistent, but the only
> thing close to The Tick. I remember the one where Sharky takes the
> mind-altering medication and has a trippy vision... hilarious. TTL was
> horrible, though, IMHO.
I would put The Tick below Eek the Cat, perhaps it's just nostalgia. I
actually watched 'Eekpocalypse Now' before I had a chance to watch
'Apocalypse Now', that was trippy.
> And please don't go for the "it's the cultural superiority" thing.
>
> > -kannan
I'm not claiming it's a cultural superiority thing. But I'm also not
going to go to Japan looking for decent commentary on North American
culture. In fact, pretty much all the anime I've seen depict the US in
pretty broadly generalized terms.
I would say that currently, Japanese animation is currenlty better than
NA (North American - I'm getting tired of typing this over and over
again) animation in both quality and maturity. But I beleive that's
because Japan actually has a serious market to cater to, while there
really isn't a serious NA market to cater to for NA Animators (and dont
try to tell me that the few hardcore comic readers and anime fanboys
count as a valid market, it is currently extremely small).
The problem I see is that people here just ARENT willing to sit down and
give animation the same amount of time or attention that they are
willing to give "real" movies. And until they start doing that, you
wont see any serious effort being put into releasing quality Adult NA
Animated titles, which means you wont see any large amount of quality
animation.
-kannan
Kannan Vijayan
> On 3 Nov 2000 08:46:12 GMT, kvij...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Kannan
> Vijayan) wrote:
> .
> >stylistic or skill-based. It has a lot to do with culture. North
> >America is not helped by the fact that cartoons have been exclusively
> >aimed at kids forever (with a few rare exceptions). Despite this, some
> >extremely good shows have come around, with reasonable success.
>
>
> >
> >It's not a matter of a glass ceiling. When North America decides to
> >target adults for animations, you'll see a lot more stuff that is worth
> >watching.
>
> high quality.
Perhaps my statement was badly worded. What I meant to say was that
until people start realizing that there is a serious market for
quality animation in north america, you wont see any quality animation.
> You have to have the best writers and creators want to
> work through the medium. Here, adult animation is assumed to
> have a small audience and subsequently gets poor resources. In Japan,
> the writers tend to be of a higher calibre because they can attract
> the best. Animation in Japan is often used instead of live action.
> Gainax's "His and Her Circumstances" for example.
Well, the thing is, Gainax did stuff with Kare Kano that just wouldn't
be possible with live action, and wouldn't have a tenth of the impact if
they tried. Miyazawa's entire gamut of facial expressions, especially
her demonic 'angry' face. The show's frequent habit of displaying
abstract scenes which are simply incomplete pencil sketches, or a
super-deformed Arima in a black nothingness with text swirling around
him, set an atmosphere that you just cant get with live action.
> And it wont be the same as anime, but that's all for the
> >better. I havn't seen an anime yet that matches the biting commentary
> >on duckman, the campy goodness of PPG, or the simply bizzare plots in
> >Captain Star or The Head.
>
>
> A lot of good stuff in Japan never makes it over here. There may not
> be a Captain Star from Japan, but you won't see anyone producing
> "Child's Toy" here either.
Yea, Kodocha is pretty whack shit. A friend of mine calls it 'shoujo on
crack'. I havn't seen it so I can't comment. But from what I've seen,
I dont think Japanese animation has the kind of cultural commentary that
NA stuff has. Perhaps it's just because I dont know japanese culture,
mabye I'm blithely missing a quick jab by one of the characters at some
political issue or government figure, I dont know. I just dont see it
happening in the stuff I watch.
What I was trying to say was that north american animation has some
qualitative differences that set it apart from japanese animation, and
make it worth watching for it's own sake, not just as 'a poor imitation
of what they do in Japan'.
-kannan
Franklin Harris
> > In article <031120001345131741%in...@localnet.com>,
> > Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > But, you see, there comes a point where a show is so "real" that it
> > > should of been made live action. We see alot of anime that has been
> > > created in that format because it's cheaper then attempting to film a
> > > live action version. To me, there has to be a REASON that you're doing
> > > a story in animation, some aspect that just can't be duplicated with
> > > real actors or sets.
> > >
[...]
> >
> Unless you just prefer animation to anything live action, I don't think
> that's a good reason. Any good director can chose a good visual style
> for a live action film.
Given the rapid advancements in special effects and CGI, there soon will be
*no* reason to tell a story as animation. According to your reasoning,
anyway.
--
Franklin Harris
Pulp Culture Online, www.pulpculture.net
"Vampires are make believe, just likes elves, gremlins, and Eskimos." --
Homer Simpson
Skeleton Man
"Franklin Harris" <fran...@pulpculture.net> wrote in message
> > Unless you just prefer animation to anything live action, I don't think
> > that's a good reason. Any good director can chose a good visual style
> > for a live action film.
>
> Given the rapid advancements in special effects and CGI, there soon will
be
> *no* reason to tell a story as animation. According to your reasoning,
> anyway.
>
Yeah but the reality is that that will not happen as CG artists tend to make
a TON of money, CG is still very hard to do and time consuming and requires
larger crews... The advance of technology can only advance the PERSON making
the art so far....
It will be difficult to get the prices to the point that can beat a sweat
shop in a third world country that cranks out tradition cel like mad.... and
don't forget that advancement of technology can only help them as well...
Budgets for Live action films have only gone up over the years... Not just
because of CG, but actors salaries, Set building etc. you name it....
Skeleton Man
shows in this list.... As an artist myself, to me, visuals plain and simply
DO matter... As NA animation goes the shows I gravitated to are Spawn, The
MAXX, Batman and Gargoyles....
But I don't think it's a fair comparison anyway.... Often times we don't
HAVE the types of shows they are making... We don't span multiple genres in
our animation... It's kid stuff and sitcoms that happen to be drawn (I hate
live action sitcoms too BTW)...
--
Skeleton Man
http://users.lvcm.com/artfx
Seen Chaos yet?
"Kannan Vijayan" <kvij...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
news:8u0orc$80s$1...@watserv3.uwaterloo.ca...
> Mari-chan (mar...@my-deja.com) wrote:
> > Kannan Said:
> >
> > > Dont forget:
> > >
> > > The Powerpuff Girls
> > > Dexter's Lab
> > > Duckman
> > > The Head (this one is an independent I think)
> > > Captain Star
> > > Eek the Cat
> >
> > > PPG's & Dexter's animation is something I like a lot. Extremely crisp
> > > style. Storylines are episodic, but kickass nonetheless.
> >
> > I like both shows... but not that much. But a lot of people, you
> > included, probably do.
>
> It's not serious, it's extremely campy, but the characters are fun to
> follow. And for me, interesting characters makes or breaks a show.
>
> > > Duckman and The Head have similar animation styles too, but not that
> > > fantastic. The writing for the shows on the other hand, is pretty
> > > cool.
> >
> > Duckman was the most assinine, juvenile wannabe-adult sitcom I ever
> > saw. Still, sometimes funny, and I did like Cornfed. But the "hey, a
> > vibrator -- hey, a giant blow up doll -- *snicker*snicker* -- this is
> > funny stuff!" adolescent-level jokes were cringe-worthy.
>
> They made a lot of off-color jokes on duckman, but they also provided
> some pretty insightful commentaries on everything from politics to the
> media to age-old philosophies (one of my favourites is when Ajax takes a
> trip to an alien planet and gets them all to worship Duckman as 'Dod')
>
> > The Head? That was good? How?
>
> The head had a well-crafted plot, and some extremely good scenes. For
> example the scene with the alien and the little girl on the boat. I
> missed a few episodes, but I saw enough to know that I liked it.
>
> > > I dont know where Captain Star is playing. It's odd. I dont know why
> > > it's good, but it's good.
> >
> > Never heard of it. Sounds interesting.
> >
> > > Eek (along with the Terrible Thunder Lizards) is one of my all-time
> > > favourites, although it all went to hell after Klutter. The writing
> > for
> > > the show was dynamite.
> >
> > Thanks for reminding me! Eek was much less consistent, but the only
> > thing close to The Tick. I remember the one where Sharky takes the
> > mind-altering medication and has a trippy vision... hilarious. TTL was
> > horrible, though, IMHO.
>
> I would put The Tick below Eek the Cat, perhaps it's just nostalgia. I
> actually watched 'Eekpocalypse Now' before I had a chance to watch
> 'Apocalypse Now', that was trippy.
>
> > And please don't go for the "it's the cultural superiority" thing.
> >
> > > -kannan
>
Invid Fan
<fran...@pulpculture.net> wrote:
> "Invid Fan" <in...@localnet.com> wrote in message
> news:041120000433326734%in...@localnet.com...
>
> > > In article <031120001345131741%in...@localnet.com>,
> > > Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > But, you see, there comes a point where a show is so "real" that it
> > > > should of been made live action. We see alot of anime that has been
> > > > created in that format because it's cheaper then attempting to film a
> > > > live action version. To me, there has to be a REASON that you're doing
> > > > a story in animation, some aspect that just can't be duplicated with
> > > > real actors or sets.
> > > >
> [...]
> > >
> > Unless you just prefer animation to anything live action, I don't think
> > that's a good reason. Any good director can chose a good visual style
> > for a live action film.
>
> Given the rapid advancements in special effects and CGI, there soon will be
> *no* reason to tell a story as animation. According to your reasoning,
> anyway.
>
CGI *IS* animation, just not hand drawn. Phantom Menace is really no
different then Rodger Rabbit in that both mix animation and live
action. However, even if CGI replaces traditional cell animation there
are still stories that can only be told in animation. Toy Story comes
to mind. The Hakkenden uses a visual style that can't be captured with
real humans.
My point above was that if you're going to try and create ultra
realistic animation, copying the look and feel of live action, why not
just do the story in live action? Apart from an artistic desire of the
creator to see what he can do, naturaly.
Mari-chan
Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
> Unless you just prefer animation to anything live action, I don't
think
> that's a good reason. Any good director can chose a good visual style
> for a live action film.
>
> --
> Chris
If it's well-done animation I do. Animation, even when done
realistically, has the potential to bring a unique stylistic viewpoint
to things that live-action cannot.
Of course, it can just look horrible as well. Titan A.E. might as well
have been made with actors+badly-integrated-CG rather than
DonBluth+badly-integrated-CG.
But I'd rather well-done animation than even the best live-action, yes.
Mari-chan
Invid Fan <in...@localnet.com> wrote:
> My point above was that if you're going to try and create ultra
> realistic animation, copying the look and feel of live action, why not
> just do the story in live action? Apart from an artistic desire of the
> creator to see what he can do, naturaly.
>
> --
> Chris
And what animation would you be reffering to that does this, anyway?
Usually when fans say something like this, it's just a preface to a
slam on Ghost in the Shell or something.
I've not seen any animation that copies live-action *exactly*, without
adding any stylistic elements of it's own.
Unless you're talking about the short film "Plug" or something. Which
used color-reduced live action combined with CG. That's how animation
would look if it really followed live-action exactly. And yes, that
would be a waste of cels.
Mari-chan
kvij...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Kannan Vijayan) wrote:
> Perhaps my statement was badly worded. What I meant to say was that
> until people start realizing that there is a serious market for
> quality animation in north america, you wont see any quality
> animation.
So it's a self-fufilling prophecy you're saying, then?
Hmmm... you may just be right.
> > You have to have the best writers and creators want to
> > work through the medium. Here, adult animation is assumed to
> > have a small audience and subsequently gets poor resources. In
> Yea, Kodocha is pretty whack shit. A friend of mine calls it 'shoujo
on
> crack'.
Actually, it's better than crack. And cheaper too. ;)
> But from what I've seen,
> I dont think Japanese animation has the kind of cultural commentary
that
> NA stuff has. Perhaps it's just because I dont know japanese culture,
> mabye I'm blithely missing a quick jab by one of the characters at
some
> political issue or government figure, I dont know. I just dont see it
> happening in the stuff I watch.
>
> What I was trying to say was that north american animation has some
> qualitative differences that set it apart from japanese animation, and
> make it worth watching for it's own sake, not just as 'a poor
imitation
> of what they do in Japan'.
>
> -kannan
Well, of the Japanese series that focus heavily on cultural and
political commentary, do you think they are going to be the first to be
released here? Certainly isn't a huge market for that sort of thing.
I'm NOT saying that American animation is a pale imitation. It's not
even an imitation.
There are american series that are very good. And there are series
that are very good at social commentary (the Best of Simpsons, et. all
the animated sitcoms are good examples... too bad we're awash in them,
and the Simpsons has gone downhill).
All I'm saying is we're missing something. Perhaps a lot of things.
Social commentary sitcoms and superhero action-dramas not among them.
Disruptor
>
> Ok, in the other thread "Who is the blame for anime's bad image?" in
> rec.arts.anime.misc, the assertion was made that American animation
> seems to have stagnated.
>
> stagnated as hit a glass ceiling that it can't seem to break.
> As far as TV goes, look at the Breakthrough series that set high water
> marks. Batman. Gargoyles. While *very* uneven (animation and story-
> wise), no series so far has really surpassed them, either overall or at
> their best.
threads, excellent animation and a decent BGM. The main characters fail
occasionly. King Arthuer actually made Rowan mad enough to leave
Camelot for a few episodes.
--
Tom Mathews a.k.a. Disruptor
http://home1.gte.net/mathews1/
Disruptor
>
> The problem I have with this comparison is that I don't like ANY of the
> shows in this list.... As an artist myself, to me, visuals plain and simply
> DO matter... As NA animation goes the shows I gravitated to are Spawn, The
> MAXX, Batman and Gargoyles....
Skeleton Man
--
Skeleton Man
http://users.lvcm.com/artfx
Seen Chaos yet?
"Disruptor" <math...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:3A0498...@gte.net...
8-Bit Star
Not to be neagtive here, but if crap like Batman, Extreme GB,
Reboot and Beast Wars is the way for American cartoons to
"Advance" then I don't think I want them to advance. Sure,
they may have continuity etc. but that really does not make
a good show, a good show is something that you can enjoy.
I have trouble enjoying any of the above as opposed to the
good stuff the had in the 80s. 80s cartoons may not
have had continuity or good animation, but they had more
important things: Characters who people could learn to
love as opposed to characters who advanced in development,
and don't even get me started on soundtracks (One of the
most important parts of any show) newer shows have had CRAP
soundtracks, or sometimes even no soundtrack at all (Though
that's more common in games than cartoons).
Then there's this recent foray into CGI Rendering... which has
spawned nothing but crap. Sure, it LOOKS good... but to anyone
who actually WATCHES shows rather than, well, watching them,
looks mean nothing, and heavy emphasis on them only proves that
cartoons have nothing else going for them. Bakc in the good ol'
days, Dem companies couldn't do that... they had to actually
MAKE shows!
Anyway, for people who want continuity, character development,
etc. watch anime. It does all that stuff WITHOUT being boring.
Anime is meant for more mature tastes, American animation isn't,
and I am willing to accept that, seeing as how attempts at
"Maturity" in America lead to long lines of boring cartoons.
Jay Pennington
>Not to be neagtive here, but if crap like Batman, Extreme GB,
>Reboot and Beast Wars is the way for American cartoons to
>"Advance" then I don't think I want them to advance. Sure,
>they may have continuity etc. but that really does not make
>a good show, a good show is something that you can enjoy.
>I have trouble enjoying any of the above as opposed to the
>good stuff the had in the 80s.
Please name some of these good 80s American cartoons.
I can't think of one that compares to Batman in terms of intelligent
writing, effective pacing (not non-stop), naturalistic voice
performances (not yelling all the time), lush scoring that's
well-placed (not wallpapered), dramatic layout, beautiful art design,
and especially ATMOSPHERE.
-Jay Pennington
Treadw...@Iavoidspambigfoot.com
(remove "Iavoidspam" from address when emailing)
See the Star Wars Special Edition FAQs in Treadwell's Techdome!
http://users.leading.net/~datalore/starwars
Izobel
skel...@planetbone.com wrote on 11/4/00 9:55 PM:
>
Gargoyles was what gave me hope for the American animation industry at all.
Too bad Disney had to be so awful to creator Greg Weisman. We could have
gotten a theater-released movie out of that series... sighhhhh...
Izobel
What is this, some kind of flying hippie?
Mari-chan a écrit :
> In article <bigshot-0311...@10.1.1.8>,
> big...@spumco.com (Stephen W. Worth) wrote:
>
> > Seems to me there are a lot of live action films that would fit your
> > requirements... and they would probably do a better job of it than
> > a stiff, highly realistic animated film would.
> >
> > See ya
> > Steve
>
> What's wrong with stiff, ultra-realistic looking animation?
The answer to that is in the message you quoted...
He says that live action films would do a better job anyway, so there's no
reason to use animation. I remember John K who said, in an interview for
a canadian tv show called splat, that anything that could be done as well
without using animation shouldn't be done in animation. (I can't use an
exact quote, the interview had a french voice-over).
He makes a damn good point if you ask me.
Jolly, Patrick
What is this, some kind of flying hippie?
Skeleton Man a écrit :
> I don't like ANY of the
> shows in this list....
And that goes to prove that there can't be a comparison of quality an
perception. It's just a matter of opinions, taste, it's all subjective. You
can't explain why you like melon jolly ranchers better than red jelly beans..
So there.
Jolly, Patrick
What is this, some kind of flying hippie?
8-Bit Star a écrit :
>
> and don't even get me started on soundtracks (One of the
> most important parts of any show) newer shows have had CRAP
> soundtracks, or sometimes even no soundtrack at all (Though
> that's more common in games than cartoons).
>
The "let's use the hottest song there is right now" phenomenon isn't
helping either... Look at the space jam soundtrack, for example (ok, you
were talking about tv shows, but still...)
And guess what song's on the rugrats movie 2: in paris (or whatever it's
called)?
Who let the dogs out.
Patrick
mrm...@my-deja.com
In article <3a01a615...@news.sundial.net>,
tom...@sundial.net wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:48:40 -0800, "Skeleton Man"
> <skel...@planetbone.com> wrote:
>
> >I can understand where you're coming from, but I have no desire to
EVER see
> >such a show... What I want to see is an American show which can have
the
> >level of realism of Perfect Blue... or play as down-to-earth as
Patlabor
> >2... Doesn't have to be like anime, but I would like to see
something even
> >remotely engaging... PoE is really the closest I've seen to true
drama in
> >American animation... where the people ACT like real people....
> >
> >I want to see something like that in the REAL modern world... with
some
> >action/adventure thrown in of course...
>
> The only anime I've ever seen that approaches the "real" world is
> "Serial Experiments Lain." It's the only one I've seen that takes
> place in a modestly ordinary world, with ordinary people.
Good point, though you WOULD choose an anime I've yet to see :)
Patlabor 2's an interesting example, though. Like anyone who didn't
blow off the flick as a dull disappointment, I'm set to watch it again
just
to understand it (not that Lain's any easier to comprehend, from what I
hear)
<g>.
Anyway, if you took out the mecha action in the movie's final act (and
that
mechanical spider in the opening scene), the flick could've been
handled as
a modern-day political thriller/drama.
> I could also point out that the "REAL modern world...with some
> action/acventure thrown of course..." is patently false. To use a
> real-world comparison, what would you call "real"? "Lethal Weapon" or
> "True Lies" or "Get Carter" or "Charlie's Angels"? How about film noir
> like "The Hitch-Hiker" or "Gun Crazy"? The only thing close to "real
> world" circumstances would have to be something like "Backdraft."
Msot folks here mention X-Men, thoguh I'd tone down the melodrama first.
Real people who HAPPEN to save the world every episode, and in between
interactions.
> Now, as far as a "glass ceiling," isn't it possible that anime has a
> pretty good one, too? How many anime series are recycled versions of
> previous shows? About as many as American cartoons, I'd bet, since
> Sturgeon's Law applies to them too.
There's something to be said for anime fans who've only seen what's been
brought over here. If 90 percent of everything is crap, and so much of
the anime already on these shores IS mediocre, I shudder to think what
we
AREN'T getting.
> You know, rather than looking for "ground breaking" cartoons, or
> something to shock you out of your shorts, animation fans might find
> it more satisfying to realize that everybody pretty much works with
> the same basic materials, and to find the people who work best with
> those mateirals. Like, f'rinstance, Warner makes a lot of superhero
> cartoons...but Paul Dini (for example) does more interesting stuff
> with superheroes than anyone else. Or for anime, somebody like Monkey
> Punch has nailed the rogue character with "Lupin III" better than
> anyone else.
Maybe he mentions it later, but Skeleton Man's taste in anime might lean
toward a particular artist's work. I know a few Miyazaki buffs, natch,
and if you remember Kevin Knowles, he's probably still a Kawajiri nut.
Terrence Briggs, who WAS a Umetsu nut until Casshan: Robot Hunter
mrm...@my-deja.com
8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <bgrubb-932E59....@www.zianet.com>,
> Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote:
> > In article <8ttihv$i33$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, tbr...@trinity.edu wrote:
>
> Not to be neagtive here, but if crap like Batman, Extreme GB,
> Reboot and Beast Wars is the way for American cartoons to
> "Advance" then I don't think I want them to advance. Sure,
> they may have continuity etc. but that really does not make
> a good show, a good show is something that you can enjoy.
> I have trouble enjoying any of the above as opposed to the
> good stuff the had in the 80s. 80s cartoons may not
> have had continuity or good animation, but they had more
> important things: Characters who people could learn to
> love as opposed to characters who advanced in development,<
Example? Say Thundercats and you're free to leave the conversation :)
> and don't even get me started on soundtracks (One of the
> most important parts of any show) newer shows have had CRAP
> soundtracks, or sometimes even no soundtrack at all (Though
> that's more common in games than cartoons).
Example? I push for Phantom 2040 and Batman Beyond, but nothing from
the 80s comes to mind as a standout. MAybe Real Ghostbusters.
> Then there's this recent foray into CGI Rendering... which has
> spawned nothing but crap. Sure, it LOOKS good... but to anyone
> who actually WATCHES shows rather than, well, watching them,
> looks mean nothing, and heavy emphasis on them only proves that
> cartoons have nothing else going for them. Back in the good ol'
> days, Dem companies couldn't do that... they had to actually
> MAKE shows!
On the cheap, at any rate. "Anyone who anyone who actually WATCHES
shows rather than, well, watching them" wouldn't preach about the good
ol' days of the 80s and having superior-looking shows to, say
Gargoyles, Batman, Spawn, The Maxx, CyberSix, X-Men: Evolution, etc.
> Anyway, for people who want continuity, character development,
> etc. watch anime. It does all that stuff WITHOUT being boring. <
I've seen plenty of boring anime with all that. NGE's first few eps
are a simple example. Tenchi's a better example.
> Anime is meant for more mature tastes, American animation isn't,
> and I am willing to accept that, seeing as how attempts at
> "Maturity" in America lead to long lines of boring cartoons.
The difference between adolescent maturity and adult maturity is an
issue I've already addressed.
But "crap like Batman" doesn't speak well for an argument that doesn't
qualify statements like along the lines of "anime isn't boring" with
anything otehr than conjecture.
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Terrence Briggs
Peace to you...
John Isles, iv
>CGI *IS* animation, just not hand drawn. Phantom Menace is really no
>different then Rodger Rabbit in that both mix animation and live
>action. However, even if CGI replaces traditional cell animation...
Let's hope it never does. If so, then the world of animation will be, to
be completely honest, crapola and nothing more than crapola.
>My point above was that if you're going to try and create ultra
>realistic animation, copying the look and feel of live action, why not
>just do the story in live action?
'Cause these bozos just want to see how mucked up the computer-rendered
recration of human movements can get.
--
From the mind of John Isles, iv <q...@as.net>
----------------------------------------------------------------
Pro wrestling - scripts + ice = hockey.
A Shelton
> There's something to be said for anime fans who've only seen what's been
> brought over here. If 90 percent of everything is crap, and so much of
> the anime already on these shores IS mediocre, I shudder to think what
> we
> AREN'T getting.
You're assuming that commercial release is any use as a quality filter?
I think it's safe to say that we've seen a decent amount of the lower
quality stuff brought over here thanks to cheap licensing deals. And
then there's the wonderful stuff that's been a success only in the
western market like Burn-up X and MD Geist.
Mind you, i'd love to know what percentage of Japanese animation output
has been translated (commercially or fansubbed) in any form. I'd guess
about 20%....but it would be nice to have a figure that isn't pure
guesswork.
And some fansubbers have strange tastes too...
>> You know, rather than looking for "ground breaking" cartoons, or
>> something to shock you out of your shorts, animation fans might find
>> it more satisfying to realize that everybody pretty much works with
>> the same basic materials, and to find the people who work best with
>> those mateirals. Like, f'rinstance, Warner makes a lot of superhero
>> cartoons...but Paul Dini (for example) does more interesting stuff
>> with superheroes than anyone else. Or for anime, somebody like Monkey
>> Punch has nailed the rogue character with "Lupin III" better than
>> anyone else.
Not exactly sure what this means...but I can't help thinking that with
any artistic creation it is almost always a case of the more the merrier.
Even for an individual creator getting to see someone do, say, a confused
giant-robot/religious/psycho drama and then go on to do a high school
romance show is part of what makes anime so much fun.
--
Apparently I'm insane, but I'm one of the happy kinds. (dilbert)
Andrew Shelton ashe...@cs.rmit.edu.au
GCS(2.1)-d+H+sw+v-C++UL+>L+++E-N++WV--R++tv-b+D++e+fr*y?
A Shelton
<snip>
> He says that live action films would do a better job anyway, so there's no
> reason to use animation. I remember John K who said, in an interview for
> a canadian tv show called splat, that anything that could be done as well
> without using animation shouldn't be done in animation. (I can't use an
> exact quote, the interview had a french voice-over).
> He makes a damn good point if you ask me.
I can't really see a basis for this myself. Animation allows a creator
total control over every aspect of the visual product, including removing
the `noise' of real life. Even stuff that could have been done as live
action, and i'm thinking of Jin-roh here, gained a lot of power from being
done as animation. It also allows the world to contain whatever elements of
fantasy are required (even if the base is reality) for no real expansion in
budget...with Patlabor being an example of this. The low budget allows for
interesting experiments (some of which work) to be carried out.
Even shoujo stuff, which could be called high school soap opera, gains from
having every movement, gesture and on-screen artifact designed for maximum
effect. Find me a real life girl whose eye's glitter at just the right time :)
Or find me a sailor moon or ranma who can stay the same age for 5+ years
of production.
Live action has a lot of things going for it (like reality) and works
better on the big screen than anime does (IMHO) but I do not see it as
being an inherently superior medium to animation.
Matt Martin
<ashe...@yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au> imparted the following wisdom unto
us:
> In rec.arts.anime.misc What is this, some kind of flying hippie? <drsp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > He says that live action films would do a better job anyway, so there's no
> > reason to use animation. I remember John K who said, in an interview for
> > a canadian tv show called splat, that anything that could be done as well
> > without using animation shouldn't be done in animation. (I can't use an
> > exact quote, the interview had a french voice-over).
> > He makes a damn good point if you ask me.
>
> I can't really see a basis for this myself. Animation allows a creator
> total control over every aspect of the visual product, including removing
> the `noise' of real life. Even stuff that could have been done as live
> action, and i'm thinking of Jin-roh here, gained a lot of power from being
> done as animation. It also allows the world to contain whatever elements of
> fantasy are required (even if the base is reality) for no real expansion in
> budget...with Patlabor being an example of this. The low budget allows for
> interesting experiments (some of which work) to be carried out.
Wings of Honneamise could very possibly have been done live-action,
although some scenes (like the launch) would have either needed
special effects or stock launch footage. However, I must agree that
by doing this as animation the director had full freedom in creating
the world (which was very much like yet still removed from our own)
and could add any element necessary easily. Being that the film was
non-CG I would assume that it didn't cost any (or much) more to show a
spectacular battle and launch sequence than it did to show Shiro
riding down the steet with a bunch of drunk buddies.
> Even shoujo stuff, which could be called high school soap opera, gains from
> having every movement, gesture and on-screen artifact designed for maximum
> effect. Find me a real life girl whose eye's glitter at just the right time :)
> Or find me a sailor moon or ranma who can stay the same age for 5+ years
> of production.
>
> Live action has a lot of things going for it (like reality) and works
> better on the big screen than anime does (IMHO) but I do not see it as
> being an inherently superior medium to animation.
I agree - both are mediums that aren't necessarily suited to the same
things, but as with any art form the creator is free to do whatever
they can/want regardless and can use either method for whatever
purpose they desire within budget constraints. Some things can be
better done in live action, and some can be done better in animation,
but the creator is still free to choose whichever medium they wish to
tell their story.
--
Matt Martin -=- b u f o r d @ n e k o m u s u m e . n e t
UR Japanese Anime Club -=- http://nekomusume.net/uranime/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Nothing in life is more exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
-- Winston Churchill
Sea Wasp
>
> "Invid Fan" writes:
>
> >CGI *IS* animation, just not hand drawn. Phantom Menace is really no
> >different then Rodger Rabbit in that both mix animation and live
> >action. However, even if CGI replaces traditional cell animation...
>
> Let's hope it never does. If so, then the world of animation will be, to
> be completely honest, crapola and nothing more than crapola.
>
> >My point above was that if you're going to try and create ultra
> >realistic animation, copying the look and feel of live action, why not
> >just do the story in live action?
>
> 'Cause these bozos just want to see how mucked up the computer-rendered
> recration of human movements can get.
Not really.
There will come a time -- in the not too distant future -- when
computers can reproduce actions so that you literally cannot tell them
from the real thing. They will also be able to produce what appear to
be perfect cel-animations, in whatever artistic style you choose.
Why would you do this?
Flexibility and money. If I have to hire 15 different artists to do
15 different animation styles, that's a lotta money, and if I can't
afford to hire that many, I have limited flexibility with respect to
the style I can produce my product in.
If I can afford, say, a $100,000 mainframe (in the year 2010, say)
which will reproduce live-action behavior perfectly, I can then
produce what appears to be a full live-action movie for the cost of a
few programmers and living expenses, rather than expending 50 million
just to hire actors, extras, buy sets, etc.
--
Sea Wasp http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.html
/^\
;;; _Morgantown: The Jason Wood Chronicles_, at
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/20040.html
PsychoKick
[snip]
>Even shoujo stuff, which could be called high school soap opera, gains from
>having every movement, gesture and on-screen artifact designed for maximum
>effect.
Don't forget the mood-sensitive environments! ^_^ Live action
soaps could never get away with half of the wonderfully freaky visual
stunts that anime soaps use to emphasize emotional states.
**kung fool**code freak**mad animator**
*-------------PsychoKick--------------*
*professional slacker*arrogant b@stard*
8-Bit Star
mrm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8u2bv8$8md$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote:
> > > In article <8ttihv$i33$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, tbr...@trinity.edu
wrote:
> >
> > Not to be neagtive here, but if crap like Batman, Extreme GB,
> > Reboot and Beast Wars is the way for American cartoons to
> > "Advance" then I don't think I want them to advance. Sure,
> > they may have continuity etc. but that really does not make
> > a good show, a good show is something that you can enjoy.
> > I have trouble enjoying any of the above as opposed to the
> > good stuff the had in the 80s. 80s cartoons may not
> > have had continuity or good animation, but they had more
> > important things: Characters who people could learn to
> > love as opposed to characters who advanced in development,<
>
First off, remember I said LOVABLE characters AS OPPOSED to Characters
who developed. In any case... I'm kinda on and off about Thundercats,
some eps are great but other are just stupid (One who episode involved
them trying to get out of a pit, ehhh). Top of the line would probably
be Real Ghostbusters, Filmation's Ghostbusters, and Teenage Mutant
Ninja Turtles in terms of characters... they never grew or advanced,
but we loved them anyway. Then there are He-Man, She-Ra, Rainbow
Brite, GI Joe... idolised heroes to some people (I don't idolise
people). Ya wanna really scrape the barrel? Then let's not forget
a popular cartoon singer known as Jem.
On a side track, I have a friend who loves My Little Pony.
(I'm not including Transformers in this list because I consider it
Anime).
>
> > and don't even get me started on soundtracks (One of the
> > most important parts of any show) newer shows have had CRAP
> > soundtracks, or sometimes even no soundtrack at all (Though
> > that's more common in games than cartoons).
>
> Example? I push for Phantom 2040 and Batman Beyond, but nothing from
> the 80s comes to mind as a standout. MAybe Real Ghostbusters.
We talking about Soundtracks? Yea, let's not be forgettin' Real GB
here (Extreme GB merely revamped its soundtrack). Jem and the
Holograms... That show was ABOUT singing. Rainbow Brite and MLP.
Thundercats had a cool theme song, at least. Then there's He-Man,
She-Ra, and Filmation's Ghostbusters (that, BTW, is the one with
the Gorilla for those who can't picture it).
>
> > Then there's this recent foray into CGI Rendering... which has
> > spawned nothing but crap. Sure, it LOOKS good... but to anyone
> > who actually WATCHES shows rather than, well, watching them,
> > looks mean nothing, and heavy emphasis on them only proves that
> > cartoons have nothing else going for them. Back in the good ol'
> > days, Dem companies couldn't do that... they had to actually
> > MAKE shows!
>
> On the cheap, at any rate. "Anyone who anyone who actually WATCHES
> shows rather than, well, watching them" wouldn't preach about the good
> ol' days of the 80s and having superior-looking shows to, say
> Gargoyles, Batman, Spawn, The Maxx, CyberSix, X-Men: Evolution, etc.
Too bad that's exactly my point: Nowadays they simply try to make
it LOOK good, in the eighties they COULDN't make them look good so
they had to actually BE good. Not to say all 90s stuff is bad...
I rather like X-Men, but 80s stuff still prevails, in pure enjoyment,
and without needless extras like continuity.
>
> > Anyway, for people who want continuity, character development,
> > etc. watch anime. It does all that stuff WITHOUT being boring. <
>
> I've seen plenty of boring anime with all that.
Thank you! This of course proves that none of it means a damn thing
about a show's quality.
> NGE's first few eps
> are a simple example. Tenchi's a better example.
>
> > Anime is meant for more mature tastes, American animation isn't,
> > and I am willing to accept that, seeing as how attempts at
> > "Maturity" in America lead to long lines of boring cartoons.
>
> The difference between adolescent maturity and adult maturity is an
> issue I've already addressed.
>
> But "crap like Batman" doesn't speak well for an argument that doesn't
> qualify statements like along the lines of "anime isn't boring" with
> anything otehr than conjecture.
Errrr... Ummmm.... What? I'm not sure I understand this last paragraph.
>
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
>
> Terrence Briggs
> Peace to you...
>
8-Bit Star
Treadw...@YOUKNOWWHATTODObigfoot.com wrote:
> 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Not to be neagtive here, but if crap like Batman, Extreme GB,
> >Reboot and Beast Wars is the way for American cartoons to
> >"Advance" then I don't think I want them to advance. Sure,
> >they may have continuity etc. but that really does not make
> >a good show, a good show is something that you can enjoy.
> >I have trouble enjoying any of the above as opposed to the
> >good stuff the had in the 80s.
>
> Please name some of these good 80s American cartoons.
> I can't think of one that compares to Batman in terms of intelligent
> writing, effective pacing (not non-stop), naturalistic voice
> performances (not yelling all the time), lush scoring that's
> well-placed (not wallpapered), dramatic layout, beautiful art design,
> and especially ATMOSPHERE.
First off, noen of this, as I've been trying to say, really means
squat when it involves a show's quality... I've seen lots of shows
that did all this and were boring as hell (as happens oft in America).
Two, how the hell does Batman have "Good writing?" You musta forgot
about how he is somehow "Just there" in the nick of time without
any rationale, how he can oddly enough always "Teleport" to right
behind the villain, and how he solves mysteries merely on whims.
That is not "Good Writing."
However, I won't chew Batman out for it, because I let bad writing
in 80s shows slip all the time.
Now, that list of good 80s cartoons you requested?
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, He-Man, She-Ra, Real Ghostbusters,
Filmation's Ghostbusters, Ducktales, Gummi Bears (I think this
was 80s, anyway), BraveStarr, Jem and the Holograms, Rainbow Brite,
My Little Pony, COPS, GI Joe, Thundercats (some eps, anyway..
Silverhawks, however, is worthless)... Did I forget anything?
>
> -Jay Pennington
> Treadw...@Iavoidspambigfoot.com
> (remove "Iavoidspam" from address when emailing)
>
> See the Star Wars Special Edition FAQs in Treadwell's Techdome!
> http://users.leading.net/~datalore/starwars
>
>
Avatar
"John Isles, iv" wrote:
>
> "Invid Fan" writes:
>
> >CGI *IS* animation, just not hand drawn. Phantom Menace is really no
> >different then Rodger Rabbit in that both mix animation and live
> >action. However, even if CGI replaces traditional cell animation...
>
> Let's hope it never does. If so, then the world of animation will be, to
> be completely honest, crapola and nothing more than crapola.
Watch your terminology. Traditional cel animation is dead, dead, dead,
and probably won't be coming back; they don't make the cels in Japan
anymore, even. OTOH, there's a difference between CGI and
computer-assisted animation...
Avatar
corin...@aol.com
there are to many restrictions and we do not get to see all the
excitement that the Japanese get to see. In North America they have a
lot of restrictions on television because of children. They believe
that if children see a lot of violence they will turn violent, but I do
not believe this is so because Japanese children watch these cartoons
and they are not violent and also in my house the kids are allowed to
watch the Japanese cartoons that we rent or buy and they are just
fine. I would like to see that North America would change its
restrictions and show the same cartoons as in Japan.
<0ag70tgq51dpdntrb...@4ax.com>,
"T.\"Rufus\" Frazier" <rufu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 3 Nov 2000 08:46:12 GMT, kvij...@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Kannan
> Vijayan) wrote:
> .
> >The difference between North American animation and Anime are not
just
> >stylistic or skill-based. It has a lot to do with culture. North
> >America is not helped by the fact that cartoons have been exclusively
> >aimed at kids forever (with a few rare exceptions). Despite this,
some
> >extremely good shows have come around, with reasonable success.
>
> Yes
>
> >
> >It's not a matter of a glass ceiling. When North America decides to
> >target adults for animations, you'll see a lot more stuff that is
worth
> >watching.
>
> I disagree. Targeting animation to adults doesn't necessarily make it
> high quality. You have to have the best writers and creators want to
> work through the medium. Here, adult animation is assumed to
> the writers tend to be of a higher calibre because they can attract
> the best. Animation in Japan is often used instead of live action.
> Gainax's "His and Her Circumstances" for example.
>
> And it wont be the same as anime, but that's all for the
> >better. I havn't seen an anime yet that matches the biting
commentary
> >on duckman, the campy goodness of PPG, or the simply bizzare plots in
> >Captain Star or The Head.
>
> A lot of good stuff in Japan never makes it over here. There may not
> be a Captain Star from Japan, but you won't see anyone producing
> "Child's Toy" here either.
Skeleton Man
"Avatar" <ak...@pdq.net> wrote in message
> Watch your terminology. Traditional cel animation is dead, dead, dead,
> and probably won't be coming back; they don't make the cels in Japan
> anymore, even. OTOH, there's a difference between CGI and
> computer-assisted animation...
>
> Avatar
Where did you get that idea? Have you watched the making of Jin-Roh lately?
Still traditional cel, BABY!!!
BTW: to transition a studio over to digital, even just for ink and paint is
expensive...You have ANY idea how much one SEAT of Animo costs?! You can
still be doing cheap cel in Corea and Mexico... traditional cel will be
around for a while, especially with Japan's econmomy currently....
Jay Pennington
>First off, noen of this, as I've been trying to say, really means
>squat when it involves a show's quality...
Oy.
>Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, He-Man, She-Ra, Real Ghostbusters,
>Filmation's Ghostbusters, Ducktales, Gummi Bears (I think this
>was 80s, anyway), BraveStarr, Jem and the Holograms, Rainbow Brite,
>My Little Pony, COPS, GI Joe, Thundercats
Double oy.
So let me get this straight: quality of artwork, sound, animation,
score, writing, voice performances, direction, layout and editing is
immaterial. A cartoon can be awful in all those areas and still be
good if you like the characters.
Nay. Yes, a good cartoon might be weak in some of these areas and
still transcend its faults, but I'd hardly agree that a "lovable
character" can redeem an otherwise horrible show.
I believe your affinity for such cartoons is due to the age you were
when you saw them. Nothing wrong with looking back fondly at something
you enjoyed in your youth, but the golden glow of nostalgia should not
color critical analysis of the material.
(I mean--when I was around 5 I LOVVVVED "Wheelie and the Choppers",
but I'd hardly vilify it as an objective standard of a quality
cartoon.)
Fred
Avatar wrote:
> Watch your terminology. Traditional cel animation is dead, dead, dead,
> and probably won't be coming back; they don't make the cels in Japan
> anymore, even.
Traditional cel animation is not dead in Japan, totally not true. So far,
only a small part of the anime studios are using the digital ink & paint
techniques, like Toei and Gonzo...etc. There're still many anime studios
using the traditional hand-painted cel techniques, like Studio Pierrot, AIC,
Madhouse, and Nippon Animation...etc. These studios are converting it slowly
now, but it will take at least several more years for all of them to convert
into digital.
John Isles, iv
>Traditional cel animation is not dead in Japan, totally not true. So far,
>only a small part of the anime studios are using the digital ink & paint
>techniques, like Toei and Gonzo...etc. There're still many anime studios
>using the traditional hand-painted cel techniques, like Studio Pierrot,
>AIC, Madhouse, and Nippon Animation...etc. These studios are converting
>it slowly now, but it will take at least several more years for all of
>them to convert into digital.
The only way I'll ever accept computer-aided animation is by pulling a
/South Park/-- by copying images onto a computer and using the computer to
thread the tranferred cels into animation.
--
From the mind of John Isles, iv <q...@as.net>
----------------------------------------------------------------
ĄSe habla everything!
Avatar
"John Isles, iv" wrote:
>
> "Fred" writes:
>
> >Traditional cel animation is not dead in Japan, totally not true. So far,
> >only a small part of the anime studios are using the digital ink & paint
> >techniques, like Toei and Gonzo...etc. There're still many anime studios
> >using the traditional hand-painted cel techniques, like Studio Pierrot,
> >AIC, Madhouse, and Nippon Animation...etc. These studios are converting
> >it slowly now, but it will take at least several more years for all of
> >them to convert into digital.
>
> The only way I'll ever accept computer-aided animation is by pulling a
> /South Park/-- by copying images onto a computer and using the computer to
> thread the tranferred cels into animation.
This is, in fact, what is done. Example: Bubblegum Crisis 2040 (an AIC
production!), totally digital animation process. There's spots where you
can notice it, especially in the intro (or maybe it's just because I've
seen it so blippin' often), but most of the time it's indistinguishable
from film...
...well, if you count "lacking any sort of artifact or grain or anything
else that can be attributed to film".
Avatar
andrew osmond
> I remember John K who said, in an interview for
>a canadian tv show called splat, that anything that could be done as well
>without using animation shouldn't be done in animation. (I can't use an
>exact quote, the interview had a french voice-over).
>He makes a damn good point if you ask me.
The ambiguity lies in the phrase 'as well.' Thinking of some of my
favourite anime - Ghibli films like Grave of the Fireflies, Only
Yesterday, Whisper of the Heart, and Ocean Waves, plus large chunks of
Orange Road (especially I Want to Return to That Day) and many of the
post-Heidi WMT shows like Anne of Green Gables and Romeo's Blue Skies...
in _all_ these case, the story could be probably told in live-action,
and often pretty inexpensively. But I still think I'd greatly prefer the
animated version to any live-action simulacrum. Can try to articulate
reasons if anyone's interested.
--
andrew osmond
The Amazing Puppy
Treadw...@YOUKNOWWHATTODObigfoot.com wrote:
> 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >First off, noen of this, as I've been trying to say, really means
> >squat when it involves a show's quality...
>
> Oy.
Oy?
>
> >Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, He-Man, She-Ra, Real Ghostbusters,
> >Filmation's Ghostbusters, Ducktales, Gummi Bears (I think this
> >was 80s, anyway), BraveStarr, Jem and the Holograms, Rainbow Brite,
> >My Little Pony, COPS, GI Joe, Thundercats
>
> Double oy.
I'm especially partial to My Little Pony...
>
> So let me get this straight: quality of artwork, sound, animation,
> score, writing, voice performances, direction, layout and editing is
> immaterial.
I think I'll help out Bitty since he'll be crying for me later on
anyway (Besides, me taughts him most anything he knows... not that
he comprehends it the same way I do but anyway...)
Art quality: Personally, I don't see how you can get much better
than the transformation scene in She-Ra.
Sound: Bitty said THIS was Immaterial? Screw him then.
Animation: May just be me but doesn't this go under "Art Quality"?
Score: I can reach up to 10000000 points in Super Mario Bros. doesn't
make me all that great.
Writing: A fun activity I like to do... oh, SCRIPT writing. Oh, that
always sucks, one way or another, especially in book-based movies
(Still remember that line from Hunt for Red October: "You're just a
CIA Analyst, what do YOU know?" now if THAT ain't stupid, what is?)
Voice Performances: Hey, Dubbed Anime continues to be made for a
reason (and no, its not so we can bitch about Ranma season four).
Direction: I'm not sure wether this means the direction of the
plot or the abilities of the director, both are gonna get kinda
screwed either way.
Layout: Like I even know what this is.
Editing: This is what took a series of great mystery novels, skewered
it, made it real gimmicky, and turned it into the somewhat lame series
of James Bond movies (After reading the books, I don't think I'll ever
like the movies again... 'cept Goldeneye and From Russia With Love).
On the other hand, it did give us the lovable Q...
> A cartoon can be awful in all those areas and still be
> good if you like the characters.
That was only one thing he mentioned, he also said the show had to
be enjoyable.
Not that I'm surprised, Bitty is so muddled that sometimes I'm the
only one who can understand him, and even then there's some difficulty.
>
> Nay. Yes, a good cartoon might be weak in some of these areas and
> still transcend its faults, but I'd hardly agree that a "lovable
> character" can redeem an otherwise horrible show.
Howsabout simply liking it? Yea, you know, just plain having fun
with it! Screw all the hubbub!
(It because of thinking like this that I can love almost anything
that doesn't say "Ronin Warriors" or "Dragon Ball (Z)")
>
> I believe your affinity for such cartoons is due to the age you were
> when you saw them. Nothing wrong with looking back fondly at something
> you enjoyed in your youth, but the golden glow of nostalgia should not
> color critical analysis of the material.
Right, like Bitty is capable of critical analysis.
In any case, nostalgia is as good a reason as any to cloud judgement,
I mean, I'm seeing such arbitrary (like I even know what that means)
criticisms like writing and voice acting and all other hubbub and
bub, this hubbub needs to gogogo! So if we can criticise a whole
show just because some guy mispronounced a french word or the
airplane doesn't sound like you THINK it should, then we can
dismiss it because thinking of the old days brings us to tears,
right? (And it happens all the time in Bitty's case).
>
> (I mean--when I was around 5 I LOVVVVED "Wheelie and the Choppers",
> but I'd hardly vilify it as an objective standard of a quality
> cartoon.)
Wheelie and the WHAT? I'm lost, and you're scaring me... Cartoons
I no hear of scare me (Not really, but hey I needed a break).
>
> -Jay Pennington
> Treadw...@Iavoidspambigfoot.com
> (remove "Iavoidspam" from address when emailing)
>
> See the Star Wars Special Edition FAQs in Treadwell's Techdome!
> http://users.leading.net/~datalore/starwars
>
>
mrm...@my-deja.com
8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <8u374e$sdt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> mrm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8u2bv8$8md$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote:
> > > > In article <8ttihv$i33$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, tbr...@trinity.edu
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Not to be neagtive here, but if crap like Batman, Extreme GB,
> > > Reboot and Beast Wars is the way for American cartoons to
> > > "Advance" then I don't think I want them to advance. Sure,
> > > they may have continuity etc. but that really does not make
> > > a good show, a good show is something that you can enjoy.
> > > I have trouble enjoying any of the above as opposed to the
> > > good stuff the had in the 80s. 80s cartoons may not
> > > have had continuity or good animation, but they had more
> > > important things: Characters who people could learn to
> > > love as opposed to characters who advanced in development,<
> >
:)
>
> First off, remember I said LOVABLE characters AS OPPOSED to Characters
> who developed. In any case... I'm kinda on and off about Thundercats,
> some eps are great but other are just stupid (One who episode involved
> them trying to get out of a pit, ehhh). Top of the line would
probably
> be Real Ghostbusters, Filmation's Ghostbusters, and Teenage Mutant
> Ninja Turtles in terms of characters... they never grew or advanced,
> but we loved them anyway. <
Pretty much any traditional ac/adv series in America features
characters that only change within episodes.
But I see your point in that interesting characters don't necessarliy
have to change.
> Then there are He-Man, She-Ra, Rainbow
> Brite, GI Joe... idolised heroes to some people (I don't idolise
> people). Ya wanna really scrape the barrel? Then let's not forget
> a popular cartoon singer known as Jem.
>
> On a side track, I have a friend who loves My Little Pony.
>
> (I'm not including Transformers in this list because I consider it
> Anime).
Uh, why? It was animated in Asia, but so are hundreds of series that
are otherwise developed outside of the continent.
Not many folks I know would consider Bots Master rf Winnie the Pooh to
be anime, but they were both animated in East Asia.
> > > and don't even get me started on soundtracks (One of the
> > > most important parts of any show) newer shows have had CRAP
> > > soundtracks, or sometimes even no soundtrack at all (Though
> > > that's more common in games than cartoons).
> >
> > Example? I push for Phantom 2040 and Batman Beyond, but nothing
from
> > the 80s comes to mind as a standout. MAybe Real Ghostbusters.
>
> We talking about Soundtracks? <
I'm referring to musical scores, not just opening themes.
> Yea, let's not be forgettin' Real GB here (Extreme GB merely revamped
its soundtrack). <
I think you're just talking about the theme. The in-show music to XGB
is worthless ambient stuff, with as much connection to Outer Limits as
the original GB.
> Jem and the
> Holograms... That show was ABOUT singing. <
Well, I've always liked Chase/Rucker. Or was it Kinder/Bryant for Jem?
> Rainbow Brite and MLP. <
Don't remember much about their soundtracks.
> Thundercats had a cool theme song, at least. <
:P
Silverhawks, I'll give some credit to.
> Then there's He-Man, She-Ra, and Filmation's Ghostbusters (that, BTW,
is the one with the Gorilla for those who can't picture it). <
Trying to determine if He-Man & She-Ra had close soundtracks. The
themes were differenct, at least.
But seriously, I don't believe any 80s series compares to the scores
and themes of Batman Beyond, Phantom 2040, Gargoyles, Invasion:
Amerioca, Migthy Max, etc.
> > > Then there's this recent foray into CGI Rendering... which has
> > > spawned nothing but crap. Sure, it LOOKS good... but to anyone
> > > who actually WATCHES shows rather than, well, watching them,
> > > looks mean nothing, and heavy emphasis on them only proves that
> > > cartoons have nothing else going for them. Back in the good ol'
> > > days, Dem companies couldn't do that... they had to actually
> > > MAKE shows!
> >
> > On the cheap, at any rate. "Anyone who anyone who actually WATCHES
> > shows rather than, well, watching them" wouldn't preach about the
good
> > ol' days of the 80s and having superior-looking shows to, say
> > Gargoyles, Batman, Spawn, The Maxx, CyberSix, X-Men: Evolution, etc.
>
> Too bad that's exactly my point: Nowadays they simply try to make
> it LOOK good, in the eighties they COULDN't make them look good so
> they had to actually BE good. <
Talk to enough animation fans, and they'll say they failed miserably.
This isn't the difference between black-and-white movies and color;
it's the difference between animated series produced under different
standards for creative control. A great deal of the animators and
writers I've read about spoke of SURVIVING the 80s, not looking back
fondly. Gen X-ers are the ones guilty of that, from what I've seen.
> Not to say all 90s stuff is bad...
> I rather like X-Men, but 80s stuff still prevails, in pure enjoyment,
> and without needless extras like continuity.
see above
> > > Anyway, for people who want continuity, character development,
> > > etc. watch anime. It does all that stuff WITHOUT being boring. <
> >
> > I've seen plenty of boring anime with all that.
>
> Thank you! This of course proves that none of it means a damn thing
> about a show's quality.
But I thoguht the argument was that the best of anime shows that a
higher narrative standard doesn't mean boring material.
> > NGE's first few eps
> > are a simple example. Tenchi's a better example.
> >
> > > Anime is meant for more mature tastes, American animation isn't,
> > > and I am willing to accept that, seeing as how attempts at
> > > "Maturity" in America lead to long lines of boring cartoons.
> >
> > The difference between adolescent maturity and adult maturity is an
> > issue I've already addressed.
> >
> > But "crap like Batman" doesn't speak well for an argument that
doesn't
> > qualify statements like along the lines of "anime isn't boring" with
> > anything otehr than conjecture.
>
> Errrr... Ummmm.... What? I'm not sure I understand this last
paragraph.
Your initial post essentially said that "80s cartoons ruled", but
didn't provide any examples. It also said that anime does what 90s
American cartoons aspire to, without being boring. Again, no
examples. Thanks for clearing some of that up, though.
Terrence Briggs
Peace to you...
What is this, some kind of flying hippie?
children, and most of them won't admit that they liked an animated movie or
tv show, and that's if they even bothered to watch one. Japanese people
(both audiences and production companies) are, say, more open minded. They
see animation as a medium like any other, not some kiddie-attracting puppet
show. So north america has to produce cartoons that will appeal to kids
(I'm talking about big productions, here. And yes, even with their dark look
and all, I think batman and gargoyles are somewhat kid-oriented.)
Jolly, Patrick
corin...@aol.com a écrit :
Sea Wasp
>
> "Fred" writes:
>
> >Traditional cel animation is not dead in Japan, totally not true. So far,
> >only a small part of the anime studios are using the digital ink & paint
> >techniques, like Toei and Gonzo...etc. There're still many anime studios
> >using the traditional hand-painted cel techniques, like Studio Pierrot,
> >AIC, Madhouse, and Nippon Animation...etc. These studios are converting
> >it slowly now, but it will take at least several more years for all of
> >them to convert into digital.
>
> The only way I'll ever accept computer-aided animation is by pulling a
> /South Park/-- by copying images onto a computer and using the computer to
> thread the tranferred cels into animation.
I doubt that. You've probably watched and enjoyed a lot of things
that were already "computer aided" animation. You just didn't know it
because there were no obvious cues.
Twenty years from now, unless you look behind the scenes there will
be no way for ANYONE to tell which were drawn and which were
computer-generated.
Bruce Grubb
Treadw...@YOUKNOWWHATTODObigfoot.com wrote:
>8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>First off, noen of this, as I've been trying to say, really means
>>squat when it involves a show's quality...
>
>Oy.
>
>>Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, He-Man, She-Ra, Real Ghostbusters,
>>Filmation's Ghostbusters, Ducktales, Gummi Bears (I think this
>>was 80s, anyway), BraveStarr, Jem and the Holograms, Rainbow Brite,
>>My Little Pony, COPS, GI Joe, Thundercats
>
>Double oy.
>
>So let me get this straight: quality of artwork, sound, animation,
>score, writing, voice performances, direction, layout and editing is
>immaterial. A cartoon can be awful in all those areas and still be
>good if you like the characters.
>
>Nay. Yes, a good cartoon might be weak in some of these areas and
>still transcend its faults, but I'd hardly agree that a "lovable
>character" can redeem an otherwise horrible show.
I agree and would go further to say that it makes the show all the more
painful to watch. Thundercat and GI Joe had this problem in their later
season as the character that one liked went through so many chances that all
the elements that made them interesting and good shows were lost.
>I believe your affinity for such cartoons is due to the age you were
>when you saw them. Nothing wrong with looking back fondly at something
>you enjoyed in your youth, but the golden glow of nostalgia should not
>color critical analysis of the material.
>(I mean--when I was around 5 I LOVVVVED "Wheelie and the Choppers",
>but I'd hardly vilify it as an objective standard of a quality
>cartoon.)
Sometimes a cartoon is so bad that one has no nostalgia about it. For me out
of the above list Filmation's Ghostbusters, Rainbow Brite, and COPS sucked.
Filmation's Ghostbusters was lame as it had nothing to do with the
Ghostbusters movie which it was trying to cash in on; never mind that it was
in fact bade on Ghost Busters a live action show from the 1970s
Rainbow Brite consept of color bwing the source of happyness was lame and the
shallowness of the characters didn't help. Besides DC camics had a Flash
villian called Rainbow Rider from the 1970s who was color blind and used
color to cause emotions so far me there was nothing interesting in this.
COPS had such shallow characters that I cannot even name them.
Fred
Avatar wrote:
> This is, in fact, what is done. Example: Bubblegum Crisis 2040 (an AIC
> production!), totally digital animation process. There's spots where you
> can notice it, especially in the intro (or maybe it's just because I've
> seen it so blippin' often), but most of the time it's indistinguishable
> from film...
Wrong. Bubblegum Crisis 2040 is mainly made in cels, with additional CG
effects added. I have seen tons of cels from this series, and I have bought a
few for my own. AIC is migrating slowly to computer, but the majority of its
recent series is still making by cels. I have asked this question when I talked
with the El Hazard character designer, Kazuto Nakazawa a few months ago. He
said AIC is changing slowly and still experimenting various digital techniques.
For instance, Ah! My Goddess: the Movie is produced with cels. Well, here're a
couple examples:
http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/23835320
http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/23673474
Elias Ross
>
>He says that live action films would do a better job anyway, so there's no
>a canadian tv show called splat, that anything that could be done as well
>without using animation shouldn't be done in animation.
I guess I could make the analogy that if anything that can be done in
photography well shouldn't be done by hand. People should give up
doing realistic potraits of people in paint since photography is a
comparable medium. Correct me if that analogy is weak.
How again does a live action film tell a story better than an animated
one? I would like to point out that film distorts reality (though
camera angles, lighting, editing, music) in much the same way that
animation does. I belive animation can take things much further that
film can.
> (I can't use an
>exact quote, the interview had a french voice-over).
>He makes a damn good point if you ask me.
He made an unqualified assertion, which I think is unfair. Why do you
think is his argument so compelling? What are some examples of things
that we can be sure would be better as live action instead? What
are some examples of live action that might have worked better as
animation? Are there any examples?
Juan F. Lara
Elias Ross <er...@ross.software.com> wrote:
>> I remember John K who said, in an interview for a canadian tv show called
>> splat, that anything that could be done as well without using animation
>> shouldn't be done in animation.
> I guess I could make the analogy that if anything that can be done in
> photography well shouldn't be done by hand.
Well, Renaissance era artwork placed strong value in how realisticly the
artists could portray their subjects. But when photography became practical
artists started to paint more abstractly in movements such as Impressionism and
Cubism, for some reason....
> People should give up doing realistic potraits of people in paint since
> photography is a comparable medium.
An artist can make a statement about the person in the portrait in the way
he/she paints. A good photographer can do that as using techniques like
lighting, but if you just take a picture of someone than it's nothing more than
objective reality.
If you make an animated film where the ultimate goal is portraying things
as closely to real life as you can, then you're not really putting any
artistic statement in your film.
> What are some examples of things that we can be sure would be better as live
> action instead?
Shows where people stand around and make wisecracks and cultural
references at each other would be better as live action. Nearly all the
cartoons on Saturday Morning are of that kind.
> What are some examples of live action that might have worked better as
> animation?
Compare both versions of "101 Dalmatians" movies.
- Juan F. Lara
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~jfl/intro.html
David Johnston
>
> On Sun, 05 Nov 2000 <drsp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >He says that live action films would do a better job anyway, so there's no
> >a canadian tv show called splat, that anything that could be done as well
> >without using animation shouldn't be done in animation.
>
> I guess I could make the analogy that if anything that can be done in
> doing realistic potraits of people in paint since photography is a
To a significant extent people DID give up doing realistic portraits of
people in paint because of photography. Impressionism, cubism and abstract
art are the byproducts of just such attitudes. Painting portraits does have
some things going for it that animation doesn't though. Snob appeal,
and the ability to flatter the paying customer.
>
> How again does a live action film tell a story better than an animated
> one? I would like to point out that film distorts reality (though
> camera angles, lighting, editing, music) in much the same way that
> animation does. I belive animation can take things much further that
> film can.
But when it does, it is no longer something that could be done just as well
in live action. 7
>
> > (I can't use an
> >exact quote, the interview had a french voice-over).
> >He makes a damn good point if you ask me.
>
> He made an unqualified assertion, which I think is unfair. Why do you
> think is his argument so compelling? What are some examples of things
> that we can be sure would be better as live action instead? What
> are some examples of live action that might have worked better as
> animation? Are there any examples?
Honestly? Star Trek would work better as animation than it does as live
action. The limitations of special effects and costume budgets led to people
putting a bump on a nose and calling that an alien. K.O.R. wouldn't necessarily
work better as live action than it does as animation, but I doubt it would be
worse, all other things (such as scripting and cast) being equal.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> In article <slrn90e1ju...@ross.software.com>,
> Elias Ross <er...@ross.software.com> wrote:
>
> > What are some examples of things that we can be sure would be better as live
> > action instead?
>
> Shows where people stand around and make wisecracks and cultural
> references at each other would be better as live action. Nearly all the
>
You're talking about Clerks, aren't ya?
How about Blair Witch Project?
I don't think it would've fooled people
as good as it did if it was animated (of course!).
How about documentaries? Sports? Or both, like Hoop Dreams?
How about some horror? Sometimes it has to be ultra-real
to get the same reaction from people like it's the real thing.
Arachnophobia? That film about killer earthworms? Jaws?
Laters. =)
Stan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/___ |__| |__|___| \ ___|
8-Bit Star
Well, the last few seasons of ANY show sucks, for me this has been true
even for anime (I'm even avoiding Seasons four and five of Ranma)
>
> >I believe your affinity for such cartoons is due to the age you were
> >when you saw them. Nothing wrong with looking back fondly at
something
> >you enjoyed in your youth, but the golden glow of nostalgia should
not
> >color critical analysis of the material.
>
> >(I mean--when I was around 5 I LOVVVVED "Wheelie and the Choppers",
> >but I'd hardly vilify it as an objective standard of a quality
> >cartoon.)
>
> Sometimes a cartoon is so bad that one has no nostalgia about it.
For me out
> of the above list Filmation's Ghostbusters, Rainbow Brite, and COPS
sucked.
>
> Filmation's Ghostbusters was lame as it had nothing to do with the
> Ghostbusters movie which it was trying to cash in on; never mind that
it was
> in fact bade on Ghost Busters a live action show from the 1970s
Not to try to say your opinions are invalid, but... Your hating it for
being itself rather than being something elsE?
>
> Rainbow Brite consept of color bwing the source of happyness was lame
and the
> shallowness of the characters didn't help. Besides DC camics had a
Flash
> villian called Rainbow Rider from the 1970s who was color blind and
used
> color to cause emotions so far me there was nothing interesting in
this.
For me, Rainbow brite had good music, just the right amount of
sillyness, a female hero who DOESN'T always lean on guys for help...
and the star Stealer movie actually had a good storyline, to boot.
>
> COPS had such shallow characters that I cannot even name them.
COPS was more of an action show.
8-Bit Star
Well, I got you convinced, but just to be sure, I think I'll mention
Garfield and Popeye, who are popular characters that never really
changed over the years (and Popeye has been around since the 20s).
>
> > Then there are He-Man, She-Ra, Rainbow
> > Brite, GI Joe... idolised heroes to some people (I don't idolise
> > people). Ya wanna really scrape the barrel? Then let's not forget
> > a popular cartoon singer known as Jem.
> >
> > On a side track, I have a friend who loves My Little Pony.
> >
> > (I'm not including Transformers in this list because I consider it
> > Anime).
>
> Uh, why? It was animated in Asia, but so are hundreds of series that
> are otherwise developed outside of the continent.
>
> Not many folks I know would consider Bots Master rf Winnie the Pooh to
> be anime, but they were both animated in East Asia.
Thing is, I doubt either of them had their stories changed in the
translation, or have seasons that Japan kept to themselves, or have
millions of JApan-only spinoffs...
>
> > > > and don't even get me started on soundtracks (One of the
> > > > most important parts of any show) newer shows have had CRAP
> > > > soundtracks, or sometimes even no soundtrack at all (Though
> > > > that's more common in games than cartoons).
> > >
> > > Example? I push for Phantom 2040 and Batman Beyond, but nothing
> from
> > > the 80s comes to mind as a standout. MAybe Real Ghostbusters.
> >
> > We talking about Soundtracks? <
>
> I'm referring to musical scores, not just opening themes.
>
> > Yea, let's not be forgettin' Real GB here (Extreme GB merely
revamped
> its soundtrack). <
>
> I think you're just talking about the theme.
In some of these cases, I am. Especially true here for GB...
> The in-show music to XGB
> is worthless ambient stuff, with as much connection to Outer Limits as
> the original GB.
Outer Limits? The old 50s Horror show (NOT the new one that plays on
Sci-Fi)?
>
> > Jem and the
> > Holograms... That show was ABOUT singing. <
>
> Well, I've always liked Chase/Rucker. Or was it Kinder/Bryant for
Jem?
Hell if I remember, I never really pay attention to the credits.
>
> > Rainbow Brite and MLP. <
>
> Don't remember much about their soundtracks.
Well, Rainbow Brite had two of them... one used in the regular TV
show and another made for the movie (and I am not talking about
themes). Later they started using the movie ST for the show.
MLP I'm mostly thinking about the theme though. Don't you have a
little sister or something that collected these things as a kid?
If so, look around for a "Firefly's Adventure" tape.
>
> > Thundercats had a cool theme song, at least. <
>
> :P
>
> Silverhawks, I'll give some credit to.
Errrr.... I didn't really like Silverhawks. Cool songs and all but
most of it seemed to be just a Sci-Fi revamp of Thundercats.
And what the hell is an obviously anime-inspired demon thing constantly
trying to steal GOLD for?
Best thing about these shows is that they still play on CN...
Silverhawks righ after Thundercats, just to make the similarities MORE
obvious.
>
> > Then there's He-Man, She-Ra, and Filmation's Ghostbusters (that,
BTW,
> is the one with the Gorilla for those who can't picture it). <
>
> Trying to determine if He-Man & She-Ra had close soundtracks. The
> themes were differenct, at least.
I have tapes of He-Man and She-Ra, and no, their soundtracks aren't
very similar except for those ambient background tunes, and even those
are somewhat different.
>
> But seriously, I don't believe any 80s series compares to the scores
> and themes of Batman Beyond,
This had a theme?
> Phantom 2040,
Never seen.
> Gargoyles,
Errrr.... I didn't think its soundtrack was that great.
> Invasion: Amerioca,
The one 90s show I WANTED to see... and I missed it.
> Migthy Max, etc.
Okay, now HERE was a classic in every way! This seems to prove that
even Toy Commercials can be great shows... course, I already knew
that, since almost EVERYTHING from the 80s was a Toy Commercial.
>
> > > > Then there's this recent foray into CGI Rendering... which has
> > > > spawned nothing but crap. Sure, it LOOKS good... but to anyone
> > > > who actually WATCHES shows rather than, well, watching them,
> > > > looks mean nothing, and heavy emphasis on them only proves that
> > > > cartoons have nothing else going for them. Back in the good ol'
> > > > days, Dem companies couldn't do that... they had to actually
> > > > MAKE shows!
> > >
> > > On the cheap, at any rate. "Anyone who anyone who actually WATCHES
> > > shows rather than, well, watching them" wouldn't preach about the
> good
> > > ol' days of the 80s and having superior-looking shows to, say
> > > Gargoyles, Batman, Spawn, The Maxx, CyberSix, X-Men: Evolution,
etc.
> >
> > Too bad that's exactly my point: Nowadays they simply try to make
> > it LOOK good, in the eighties they COULDN't make them look good so
> > they had to actually BE good. <
>
> Talk to enough animation fans, and they'll say they failed miserably.
I'd like them to explain how outside of none of the shows lasting more
than about three years.
>
> This isn't the difference between black-and-white movies and color;
> it's the difference between animated series produced under different
> standards for creative control. A great deal of the animators and
> writers I've read about spoke of SURVIVING the 80s, not looking back
> fondly. Gen X-ers are the ones guilty of that, from what I've seen.
Okay... Up until that line about the Gen X-ers whihc I didn't get
(But then I've never really read about or understood ANYTHING about
this Gen X stuff).
>
> > Not to say all 90s stuff is bad...
> > I rather like X-Men, but 80s stuff still prevails, in pure
enjoyment,
> > and without needless extras like continuity.
>
> see above
>
> > > > Anyway, for people who want continuity, character development,
> > > > etc. watch anime. It does all that stuff WITHOUT being boring.
<
> > >
> > > I've seen plenty of boring anime with all that.
> >
> > Thank you! This of course proves that none of it means a damn thing
> > about a show's quality.
>
> But I thoguht the argument was that the best of anime shows that a
> higher narrative standard doesn't mean boring material.
No, just that if you want it, go watch anime. I don't worship it, but
even the worst of anime does that stuff without boring me like American
shows do. Hell, the only time I'm repulsed by anime is when its
mixed with 3D Computer Rendering (Or when its Dragon Ball Z).
>
> > > NGE's first few eps
> > > are a simple example. Tenchi's a better example.
> > >
> > > > Anime is meant for more mature tastes, American animation isn't,
> > > > and I am willing to accept that, seeing as how attempts at
> > > > "Maturity" in America lead to long lines of boring cartoons.
> > >
> > > The difference between adolescent maturity and adult maturity is
an
> > > issue I've already addressed.
> > >
> > > But "crap like Batman" doesn't speak well for an argument that
> doesn't
> > > qualify statements like along the lines of "anime isn't boring"
with
> > > anything otehr than conjecture.
> >
> > Errrr... Ummmm.... What? I'm not sure I understand this last
> paragraph.
>
> Your initial post essentially said that "80s cartoons ruled", but
> didn't provide any examples. It also said that anime does what 90s
> American cartoons aspire to, without being boring. Again, no
> examples. Thanks for clearing some of that up, though.
Thanks, okay...
(Now if only I could find some James Bond Jr... more to subject Puppy
to it than anything else).
8-Bit Star
Treadw...@YOUKNOWWHATTODObigfoot.com wrote:
> 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >First off, noen of this, as I've been trying to say, really means
> >squat when it involves a show's quality...
>
> Oy.
>
> >Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, He-Man, She-Ra, Real Ghostbusters,
> >Filmation's Ghostbusters, Ducktales, Gummi Bears (I think this
> >was 80s, anyway), BraveStarr, Jem and the Holograms, Rainbow Brite,
> >My Little Pony, COPS, GI Joe, Thundercats
>
> Double oy.
>
> So let me get this straight: quality of artwork, sound, animation,
> score, writing, voice performances, direction, layout and editing is
> immaterial. A cartoon can be awful in all those areas and still be
> good if you like the characters.
Well, has to have a good soundtrack, or at least a good theme song,
but sometimes even that doesn't help (Baby Huey--the one that played on
Fox in 95--had a good theme but still sucked). So the important
facotrs are soundtrack, characters, and funfactor.
For a good example, let's talk about TMNT... In the last two seasons,
the Turtles fought some alien guy. The almost total lack of Shredder
(Who IMO is one of the greatest villains in cartoon history) made
those last two seasons suck, and apparently I'm not the only one
that thinks so.
>
> Nay. Yes, a good cartoon might be weak in some of these areas and
> still transcend its faults, but I'd hardly agree that a "lovable
> character" can redeem an otherwise horrible show.
>
> I believe your affinity for such cartoons is due to the age you were
> when you saw them. Nothing wrong with looking back fondly at something
> you enjoyed in your youth, but the golden glow of nostalgia should not
> color critical analysis of the material.
Why? People judge things by their looks, which is a totally irrelevent
standard, so why shouldn't I judge things by nostalgia?
Ah well, at least my nostalgia is mostly limited to cartoons... most
of the games I like, though old, are ones I hadn;t played until
recently.
>
> (I mean--when I was around 5 I LOVVVVED "Wheelie and the Choppers",
> but I'd hardly vilify it as an objective standard of a quality
> cartoon.)
What's Wheelie and the Choppers?
>
> -Jay Pennington
> Treadw...@Iavoidspambigfoot.com
> (remove "Iavoidspam" from address when emailing)
>
> See the Star Wars Special Edition FAQs in Treadwell's Techdome!
> http://users.leading.net/~datalore/starwars
>
>
Arnold Kim
8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8u7cf9$3ln$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Nay. Yes, a good cartoon might be weak in some of these areas and
> > still transcend its faults, but I'd hardly agree that a "lovable
> > character" can redeem an otherwise horrible show.
> >
> > I believe your affinity for such cartoons is due to the age you were
> > when you saw them. Nothing wrong with looking back fondly at something
> > you enjoyed in your youth, but the golden glow of nostalgia should not
> > color critical analysis of the material.
>
> Why? People judge things by their looks, which is a totally irrelevent
> standard, so why shouldn't I judge things by nostalgia?
You sound as if you think judging by looks is an ideal that one should
aspire to. :P
Arnold Kim
Bruce Grubb
wrote:
>In article <bgrubb-14DC54....@www.zianet.com>,
> Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote:
>> In article <CslN5.256$Ab....@news1.fdn.com>,
>> Treadw...@YOUKNOWWHATTODObigfoot.com wrote:
>>
>> >8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>First off, noen of this, as I've been trying to say, really means
>> >>squat when it involves a show's quality...
>> >
>> >Oy.
>> >
>> >>Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, He-Man, She-Ra, Real Ghostbusters,
>> >>Filmation's Ghostbusters, Ducktales, Gummi Bears (I think this
>> >>was 80s, anyway), BraveStarr, Jem and the Holograms, Rainbow Brite,
>> >>My Little Pony, COPS, GI Joe, Thundercats
>> >
>> >Double oy.
>> >
>> >So let me get this straight: quality of artwork, sound, animation,
>> >score, writing, voice performances, direction, layout and editing is
>> >immaterial. A cartoon can be awful in all those areas and still be
>> >good if you like the characters.
>> >
>> >Nay. Yes, a good cartoon might be weak in some of these areas and
>> >still transcend its faults, but I'd hardly agree that a "lovable
>> >character" can redeem an otherwise horrible show.
>>
>> I agree and would go further to say that it makes the show all the
>> more painful to watch. Thundercat and GI Joe had this problem in
>> their later season as the characters that one liked went through so
>> many chances that all the elements that made them interesting and good
>> shows were lost.
>
>Well, the last few seasons of ANY show sucks, for me this has been true
>even for anime (I'm even avoiding Seasons four and five of Ranma)
To a large extent I believe you are right. About the only exception I saw to
this was the Conon series (Conon with Needle the Phoenix rather than Conan
training three kids). To some extent I suspect it has to do with searies
going on too long and the writers running out of ideas.
>> >I believe your affinity for such cartoons is due to the age you were
>> >when you saw them. Nothing wrong with looking back fondly at
>> > something you enjoyed in your youth, but the golden glow of
>> > nostalgia should not color critical analysis of the material.
>>
>> >(I mean--when I was around 5 I LOVVVVED "Wheelie and the Choppers",
>> >but I'd hardly vilify it as an objective standard of a quality
>> >cartoon.)
>>
>> Sometimes a cartoon is so bad that one has no nostalgia about it.
>> For me out of the above list Filmation's Ghostbusters, Rainbow Brite,
>> and COPSsucked.
>>
>> Filmation's Ghostbusters was lame as it had nothing to do with the
>> Ghostbusters movie which it was trying to cash in on; never mind that
>> it was in fact bade on Ghost Busters a live action show from the 1970s
>
>Not to try to say your opinions are invalid, but... Your hating it for
>being itself rather than being something elsE?
I despised it for both reasons. It was IMHO a pooor cartoon and its obvious
attempt to cash in on the Ghostbusters movie just made it even worse.
>> Rainbow Brite consept of color bwing the source of happyness was lame
>> and the shallowness of the characters didn't help. Besides DC camics
>> had a Flash villian called Rainbow Rider from the 1970s who was color
>> blind and used color to cause emotions so for me there was nothing
>> interesting in this.
>
>For me, Rainbow brite had good music, just the right amount of
>sillyness, a female hero who DOESN'T always lean on guys for help...
>and the star Stealer movie actually had a good storyline, to boot.
I could never get past the consept which kept reminding me of Rainbow
Rider warmed over.
>> COPS had such shallow characters that I cannot even name them.
>
>COPS was more of an action show.
So? Just because one has an action show doesn't mean one has to wind up with
shallow character. Conan the Barbarian case in point, also even though they
were mainly toy shows GI Joe, He-man, and She-re had deeper character than
COPS did.
Skeleton Man
<tbr...@trinity.edu> wrote in message news:8u7tgq$i1l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> And what stories were changed in the translation? I thought anime
> referred to a Japanese creative project, that could be animated
> anywhere. Transformers is American is every way except the Toei
> animation.
>
Actually if you look at the original Transformers figures that were made
with actual metal (I think Optimus Prime and Megatron among others) They
bear a copyright of 1968 or so and it is a Japanese company that created
them....
DiPiCarat
>
> <tbr...@trinity.edu> wrote in message news:8u7tgq$i1l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> > And what stories were changed in the translation? I thought anime
> > referred to a Japanese creative project, that could be animated
> > anywhere. Transformers is American is every way except the Toei
> > animation.
> >
>
> Actually if you look at the original Transformers figures that were made
> with actual metal (I think Optimus Prime and Megatron among others) They
> bear a copyright of 1968 or so and it is a Japanese company that created
> them....
Takura, IIRC. They created a series of transforming toys. Hasbro (I think)
decided to import them and sell them for the local market. In order to make it
sell better, they hired an American comic artist (I can't remember who offhand,
but he was pretty big in the 70s, I think) to spiff up the designs. They used
the designs as a basis for the storyline and turned it into the cartoon that
we're oh-so familiar with. Like much of 80s animation, after the writing and
storyboarding had been done, it was shipped to Japan (Toei, specifically) to be
animated.
The Japanese redubbed it and also released it, but it's still a case of going
from America to Japan, not Japan to America.
For actual Transformers anime, you've got to look beyond the 5 seasons that were
American produced. The Japanese started a different continuity that ignored the
last few episodes of season 5. I'm not sure HOW many seasons they produced, but
they're still doing Transformers anime. I know they recently did a non CGI
Beastwars.
For me, I'll consider something anime if it's Japanese produced and targeted.
Transformers (at least the 5 seasons and the movie), Thundercats, Silverhawks,
etc... all fail to be considered as such. Which really doesn't have any bearing
on their quality.
> Skeleton Man
DiPiCarat
Water Dragon Productions
see neat stuff at http://www.improfanfic.com
"Once Zhuang Zhou dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering
around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuang
Zhou. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and umistakable Zhuang Zhou.
But he didn't know if he was Zhuang Zhou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a
butterfly dreaming he was Zhuang Zhou."
-The Zhuangzi
Ai, ai, ai... are you a little butterfly?
"Good is better than Evil. It costs less and does a better job.
There you go - Superman distilled down to laundry detergent."
-Jeph Loeb
mich...@my-deja.com
show was awful. I saw it in Hong Kong on their english channel
Star. It had a perennial villain who did nothing but gloat
behind an organ. It had a piece of shit soundtrack that accompanied
our "heroes" transformation scene:
Let's go Ghostbusters
Let's go Let's go
(repeat line until transformation sequence ends)
The "heroes" was a bumbling fat guy, an ape and some blond
guy with a honkin' shnoz who was supposed to be the show's
studmuffin. Oh yeah there was blondie's redhead girlfriend.
That was character?
Ghostbusters reminded me totally of Drac Pack and those were not
good memories.
I'm not going to go any further on My little Pony, She-Ra/He-Man,
Rainbow Brite, Care Bears and etc.
The shows of the 80's I liked as far as I recall (keep in mind I
didn't have access to every cartoon around) were:
Thundarr/Goldie Gold (cheezy fun, especially Thundarr)
Thunderbirds 2086
Sabre Rider (kinda fun in a cheezy way, it was shown on our education
channel)
Galaxy High
Dungeons and Dragons (I really liked the end theme score and as a kid
I had a crush on the redhead thief girl)
Mighty Orbots
Mighty Mouse
Sad to say but our '90s were much better for cartoons and animation.
We had Felix the Cat, Ren and Stimpy, Rugrats, Reboot,
Bump in the Night, Samurai Pizzacats, Daria, Downtown,
Liquid Television, Aeon Flux, the MTV Oddities, and etc.
We had some stinkers but nothing on the scale of NKOTB, Richie
Rich, Gary Coleman show and etc.
In article <8u4i60$qeb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <Og3N5.243$Ab....@news1.fdn.com>,
> Treadw...@YOUKNOWWHATTODObigfoot.com wrote:
> > 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Not to be neagtive here, but if crap like Batman, Extreme GB,
> > >Reboot and Beast Wars is the way for American cartoons to
> > >"Advance" then I don't think I want them to advance. Sure,
> > >they may have continuity etc. but that really does not make
> > >a good show, a good show is something that you can enjoy.
> > >I have trouble enjoying any of the above as opposed to the
> > >good stuff the had in the 80s.
> >
> > Please name some of these good 80s American cartoons.
> > I can't think of one that compares to Batman in terms of intelligent
> > writing, effective pacing (not non-stop), naturalistic voice
> > performances (not yelling all the time), lush scoring that's
> > well-placed (not wallpapered), dramatic layout, beautiful art
design,
> > and especially ATMOSPHERE.
>
> First off, noen of this, as I've been trying to say, really means
> squat when it involves a show's quality... I've seen lots of shows
> that did all this and were boring as hell (as happens oft in America).
> Two, how the hell does Batman have "Good writing?" You musta forgot
> about how he is somehow "Just there" in the nick of time without
> any rationale, how he can oddly enough always "Teleport" to right
> behind the villain, and how he solves mysteries merely on whims.
> That is not "Good Writing."
> However, I won't chew Batman out for it, because I let bad writing
> in 80s shows slip all the time.
>
> Now, that list of good 80s cartoons you requested?
>
> Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, He-Man, She-Ra, Real Ghostbusters,
> Filmation's Ghostbusters, Ducktales, Gummi Bears (I think this
> was 80s, anyway), BraveStarr, Jem and the Holograms, Rainbow Brite,
> My Little Pony, COPS, GI Joe, Thundercats (some eps, anyway..
> Silverhawks, however, is worthless)... Did I forget anything?
Jay Pennington
>Why? People judge things by their looks, which is a totally irrelevent
>standard, so why shouldn't I judge things by nostalgia?
Since animation is a visual medium, looks would be a quite relevant
standard. Nostalgia isn't.
>> (I mean--when I was around 5 I LOVVVVED "Wheelie and the Choppers",
>> but I'd hardly vilify it as an objective standard of a quality
>> cartoon.)
>What's Wheelie and the Choppers?
Exactly.
mrm...@my-deja.com
A Shelton <ashe...@yallara.cs.rmit.edu.au> wrote:
> In rec.arts.anime.misc mrm...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > There's something to be said for anime fans who've only seen what's
been
> > brought over here. If 90 percent of everything is crap, and so
much of
> > the anime already on these shores IS mediocre, I shudder to think
what
> > we
> > AREN'T getting.
>
> You're assuming that commercial release is any use as a quality
filter? <
It's not great, but it's all I have.
I've seen more anime than most folks, and a lot of the stuff I like
would be a REAL hard sell to the average animation fan. Problem is,
I've seen a good deal of stuff that's below-the-bar. Even of some of
it has garnered an audience for various reasons (DBZ, Dangaio, Tenchi
Muyo, etc.), I'm worried a lot of folks wouldn't be happy if they were
visiting Japan and wanted a heatlhy sample of what was out there.
> I think it's safe to say that we've seen a decent amount of the lower
> quality stuff brought over here thanks to cheap licensing deals. And
> then there's the wonderful stuff that's been a success only in the
> western market like Burn-up X and MD Geist.
Problem is, I've heard those are anime to avoid at all costs. If
they're popular, yeesh.
> Mind you, i'd love to know what percentage of Japanese animation
output
> has been translated (commercially or fansubbed) in any form. I'd guess
> about 20%....but it would be nice to have a figure that isn't pure
> guesswork.
>
> And some fansubbers have strange tastes too...
There's no way for me to answer that quandry, so I'll leave it to
others.
Peace to you...
Terrence Briggs
tbr...@trinity.edu
8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <8u5gtb$hn2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> mrm...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8u4hj8$q0p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
> > > Then there are He-Man, She-Ra, Rainbow
> > > Brite, GI Joe... idolised heroes to some people (I don't idolise
> > > people). Ya wanna really scrape the barrel? Then let's not
forget
> > > a popular cartoon singer known as Jem.
> > >
> > > On a side track, I have a friend who loves My Little Pony.
> > >
> > > (I'm not including Transformers in this list because I consider it
> > > Anime).
> >
> > Uh, why? It was animated in Asia, but so are hundreds of series
that
> > are otherwise developed outside of the continent.
> >
> > Not many folks I know would consider Bots Master rf Winnie the Pooh
to
> > be anime, but they were both animated in East Asia.
>
> Thing is, I doubt either of them had their stories changed in the
> translation, or have seasons that Japan kept to themselves, or have
> millions of JApan-only spinoffs...
Ninja Turtles had a Japan-only spinoff, too.
And what stories were changed in the translation? I thought anime
referred to a Japanese creative project, that could be animated
anywhere. Transformers is American is every way except the Toei
animation.
> > The in-show music to XGB
> > is worthless ambient stuff, with as much connection to Outer Limits
as
> > the original GB.
>
> Outer Limits? The old 50s Horror show (NOT the new one that plays on
> Sci-Fi)?
The old one.
My point is that the musical score to XGB has little in common with the
original series. Yes, the theme is a revamping.
> > But seriously, I don't believe any 80s series compares to the scores
> > and themes of Batman Beyond,
>
> This had a theme?
The opening theme to Batman Beyond is all over the Internet.
> > Phantom 2040,
>
> Never seen.
Aniamtion is crumby (like a lot of those 80s series), but the writing
for about 85 percent of the episodes is among the best an animation fan
will see.
> > Gargoyles,
>
> Errrr.... I didn't think its soundtrack was that great.
Well, if you were into the orchestrated stuff, it was stellar in most
ways.
> > Invasion: Amerioca,
>
> The one 90s show I WANTED to see... and I missed it.
Didn't miss much.
> > Migthy Max, etc.
>
> Okay, now HERE was a classic in every way! This seems to prove that
> even Toy Commercials can be great shows... course, I already knew
> that, since almost EVERYTHING from the 80s was a Toy Commercial.
We've... already discussed that.
> > > Too bad that's exactly my point: Nowadays they simply try to make
> > > it LOOK good, in the eighties they COULDN't make them look good so
> > > they had to actually BE good. <
> >
> > Talk to enough animation fans, and they'll say they failed
miserably.
>
> I'd like them to explain how outside of none of the shows lasting more
> than about three years.
Huh? Street Sharks lasted more than three years. So has Batman. Two
totally different ends of the quality spectrum of 90s animation, and
they both lasted. Has VERY little to do with a "quality" that you or I
could care about.
> > This isn't the difference between black-and-white movies and color;
> > it's the difference between animated series produced under different
> > standards for creative control. A great deal of the animators and
> > writers I've read about spoke of SURVIVING the 80s, not looking back
> > fondly. Gen X-ers are the ones guilty of that, from what I've seen.
>
> Okay... Up until that line about the Gen X-ers whihc I didn't get
> (But then I've never really read about or understood ANYTHING about
> this Gen X stuff).
My point is that 14-30-year-olds waxing nostalgic about the "good ol'
days" are about the only folks I know who could make a good case for
80s animation.
The occassional fan is educated in that opinion, to the extent that he
or she has acutally SEEN some of the shows they used to love within the
last few eyars, but a lot of them seem to ahve this attitude that they
were good becuase they were kids and didn't know any better.
I know *I* got that feeling watching Thundercats and Votlron for the
first time in nearly a decade. Those were two of my favorite shows as
a kid. Transformers held up, though. Real Ghostbusters was a BETTER
show than what I remembered as a kid.
> > > > > Anyway, for people who want continuity, character development,
> > > > > etc. watch anime. It does all that stuff WITHOUT being
boring.
> <
> > > >
> > > > I've seen plenty of boring anime with all that.
> > >
> > > Thank you! This of course proves that none of it means a damn
thing
> > > about a show's quality.
> >
> > But I thoguht the argument was that the best of anime shows that a
> > higher narrative standard doesn't mean boring material.
>
> No, just that if you want it, go watch anime. I don't worship it, but
> even the worst of anime does that stuff without boring me like
American
> shows do. Hell, the only time I'm repulsed by anime is when its
> mixed with 3D Computer Rendering (Or when its Dragon Ball Z).
For me, the worst of anime is bad animation, period, even when compared
to Street Sharks. The Battle for Space Station S-1 (if you haven't
seen it, don't) is BAD. Period. Street Sharks was relatively sub-par
compared to that garbage.
<snip>
> (Now if only I could find some James Bond Jr... more to subject Puppy
> to it than anything else).
I think of JBJ as an example of animation that'd be RIGHT AT HOME in
the 80s. No continuity, character development, or anything resembling
quality animation. By your earlier assertion, the creators HAD TO MAKE
IT GOOD, because it obviously looked like crap and had no aspirations
to include anything those "boring 90s cartoons" had.
Terrence Briggs
PEace to you...
Matt Martin
tbr...@trinity.edu <tbr...@trinity.edu> imparted the following
wisdom unto us:
> My point is that 14-30-year-olds waxing nostalgic about the "good ol'
> days" are about the only folks I know who could make a good case for
> 80s animation.
>
> The occassional fan is educated in that opinion, to the extent that he
> or she has acutally SEEN some of the shows they used to love within the
> last few eyars, but a lot of them seem to ahve this attitude that they
> were good becuase they were kids and didn't know any better.
>
> I know *I* got that feeling watching Thundercats and Votlron for the
> first time in nearly a decade. Those were two of my favorite shows as
> a kid. Transformers held up, though. Real Ghostbusters was a BETTER
> show than what I remembered as a kid.
I can't remember exactly what year(s), these shows were on the air,
but two I liked that don't seem to get mentioned much are The Pirates
of Dark Water and Peter Pan and the Pirates.
The Pirates of Dark Water was surprising in that characters changed,
and there was a definite continuing story. Heck, even a lot of people
died in that, including characters that played roles beyond being a
Star Trek redshirt equivalent (mostly by getting swallowed by dark
water).
Peter Pan and the Pirates had no real continuity or character
development from ep to ep, but there were episodes that delved into
the characters making them more than cardboard cutouts (such as the
one involving the pirate ship gunner's decision on whether to continue
serving Hook or join the Lost Boys). I particulary liked the
portrayal of Hook as a very proper clean-shaven and
powdered-wig-wearing cultured brute. His cultured exterior and love
of literature vs. his dark cruel nature made a strong contrast in this
verion of Hook, making him out to be very much like Wolf Larson in
London's _The Sea Wolf_. Never having read Barrie's novels, though, I
can't comment on how accurate this was to the book version of him.
--
Matt Martin -=- b u f o r d @ n e k o m u s u m e . n e t
UR Japanese Anime Club -=- http://nekomusume.net/uranime/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of
moral progress in the world."
-- Bertrand Russell
Matt Martin
Skeleton Man <skel...@planetbone.com> imparted the following wisdom unto us:
> > referred to a Japanese creative project, that could be animated
> > anywhere. Transformers is American is every way except the Toei
> > animation.
> >
>
> with actual metal (I think Optimus Prime and Megatron among others) They
> bear a copyright of 1968 or so and it is a Japanese company that created
> them....
The date on the side of Megatron is 1974. The toys were made by
Takara, and then licensed by Hasbro in the 80s. However, the US show
was an American invention, down to the character designs that varied
from the toys (Ironhide and Ratchet being prime examples). The show
was based on a toyline with no real storyline behind it. Hasbro
basically took the toys, came up with an idea that fit, and ran with
it.
Some of the later series, such as the current Car Robots (AKA
Transformers 2000) *are/were* Japanese shows, with Takara producing
the toys. (I have four of them on my desk here. I've never seen the
show - I hear it, well... sucks - but the toys rock ^_^)
It's kind of an odd case. The toys were made long before the show for
the Japanese market, later turned into a show based on said toys
by/for the US, and then the snowballed idea re-imported back to Japan
and extended upon with the US story and Japanese toy roots still
attached.
Jay Pennington
>The date on the side of Megatron is 1974. The toys were made by
>Takara, and then licensed by Hasbro in the 80s. However, the US show
>was an American invention
[snip]
>It's kind of an odd case. The toys were made long before the show for
>the Japanese market, later turned into a show based on said toys
>by/for the US, and then the snowballed idea re-imported back to Japan
>and extended upon with the US story and Japanese toy roots still
>attached.
What he said.
Might I add that Hasbro incorporated toys from unrelated Takara
toylines and even toys from Takara's competitors to form their own
toyline and subsequently the show. That is how a Bandai Valkyrie from
Macross (a Veritech from Robotech to the uninitiated) ended up as a
Transformer (Jetfire) (and why Matchbox was unable to use the awesome
toy for their Robotech line, even though that's where it really
belonged). Pretty clever mix-and-match marketing, actually.
Bottom line: the original Transformers cartoon is not anime, but now
there IS Transformers anime being produced for the Japanese market
that we don't get to see.
Confused? You'll still be after this episode of Soap....
James 'Tengu' King
news:slrn90f2el...@yggdrasil.dhs.org...
> The date on the side of Megatron is 1974. The toys were made by
> Takara, and then licensed by Hasbro in the 80s. However, the US show
> was an American invention, down to the character designs that varied
> from the toys (Ironhide and Ratchet being prime examples). The show
> was based on a toyline with no real storyline behind it. Hasbro
> basically took the toys, came up with an idea that fit, and ran with
> it.
Several toy lines, actually, a couple of which DID have real stories begind
them (Such as Macross - Jetfire was the Macross Valkyrie.).
The majority of the big vehicles, plus Dinobots and Insecticons came from a
line called Diaclone. The little ones from one called Microman - Megatron
and Soundwave also came from it.
The Pre-Transformers page (
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/pratchett/170/pre-tf.html ) is my
source for all this information. (Sorry, it loads kinda slow.)
--
James 'Tengu' King - The Tanuki of Total Bewilderment
"Hello, Mr. Postmodern"
-Lyabibrave referring to me on r.a.a.m.
Visit the Anime Tangents Page: http://westwood.fortunecity.com/smith/467/
Desperate, for something to touch
A moment of kindness like that in a dream
Your innocent eyes, have yet no idea
of the path your destiny will follow...
- Cruel Angel's Thesis - English Translation
80-watt Hamster
8-Bit Star wrote:
> In article <bgrubb-932E59....@www.zianet.com>,
> Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote
<SNIP>
> Bakc in the good ol'
> days, Dem companies couldn't do that... they had to actually
> MAKE shows!
<SNIP>
If all you're going to do is slip into bitter old man mode, you'd be
best off keeping your comments to your bitter old self, IMHO.
--
The 80-Watt Hamster
Now Flame-Resistant!
joodegaa @ usa . net
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80-watt Hamster
8-Bit Star wrote:
>
> Now, that list of good 80s cartoons you requested?
>
> Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, He-Man, She-Ra, Real Ghostbusters,
> Filmation's Ghostbusters, Ducktales, Gummi Bears (I think this
> was 80s, anyway), BraveStarr, Jem and the Holograms, Rainbow Brite,
> My Little Pony, COPS, GI Joe, Thundercats (some eps, anyway..
> Silverhawks, however, is worthless)... Did I forget anything?
>
>> -Jay Pennington
>> Treadw...@Iavoidspambigfoot.com
>> (remove "Iavoidspam" from address when emailing)
Yeah, you forgot to mention that over half those shows first aired after
'90.
80-watt Hamster
David Johnston wrote:
> Elias Ross wrote:
>
>
> Honestly? Star Trek would work better as animation than it does as live
> action. The limitations of special effects and costume budgets led to people
> putting a bump on a nose and calling that an alien. K.O.R. wouldn't necessarily
> work better as live action than it does as animation, but I doubt it would be
> worse, all other things (such as scripting and cast) being equal.
Think so? If you ask me, if Star Trek had been animated, it would've
been nothing more than a "serious" Jetsons. yeah, Jetsons is classic
American animation, but it hasn't spawned a frickin' subculture like
Star Trek has. Live action is much more successful at the whole
suspension of disbelief thing. As soon as something's animated, it's
fantasy. (Uh, for most people.) Essentially, if the original ST had
been animated, we would not have TNG, DS9, voyager, over half a dozen
movies, conventions, or the Klingon Bible. Wether this is a good thing
or not I leave up to the individual to decide.
8-Bit Star
<3A07B6EE...@usa.dontyouhateitwhenpeopledothingslikethiswiththeirem
ail.net>,
80-watt Hamster
<jood...@usa.dontyouhateitwhenpeopledothingslikethiswiththeiremail.net>
wrote:
>
>
> 8-Bit Star wrote:
>
> >
> > Now, that list of good 80s cartoons you requested?
> >
> > Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, He-Man, She-Ra, Real Ghostbusters,
> > Filmation's Ghostbusters, Ducktales, Gummi Bears (I think this
> > was 80s, anyway), BraveStarr, Jem and the Holograms, Rainbow Brite,
> > My Little Pony, COPS, GI Joe, Thundercats (some eps, anyway..
> > Silverhawks, however, is worthless)... Did I forget anything?
> >
> >> -Jay Pennington
> >> Treadw...@Iavoidspambigfoot.com
> >> (remove "Iavoidspam" from address when emailing)
>
> Yeah, you forgot to mention that over half those shows first aired
after
> '90.
No, the only ones that I might have incorrectly established as 80s
shows were Ducktales and Gummi Bears. I'm sure all the others first
ran in the 80s. I have tapes of nearly all of these so I can check.
>
> --
>
> The 80-Watt Hamster
> Now Flame-Resistant!
> joodegaa @ usa . net
>
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>
> http://www.geekcode.com/geek.html
>
>
80-watt Hamster
tbr...@trinity.edu wrote:
>
> My point is that 14-30-year-olds waxing nostalgic about the "good ol'
> days" are about the only folks I know who could make a good case for
> 80s animation.
I was wondering if I was the only person that felt this way...
> The occassional fan is educated in that opinion, to the extent that he
> or she has acutally SEEN some of the shows they used to love within the
> last few eyars, but a lot of them seem to ahve this attitude that they
> were good becuase they were kids and didn't know any better.
>
> I know *I* got that feeling watching Thundercats and Votlron for the
> first time in nearly a decade. Those were two of my favorite shows as
> a kid. Transformers held up, though. Real Ghostbusters was a BETTER
> show than what I remembered as a kid.
Transformers held up for me in everything but dialog. Going back and
listening to it makes one realize how bad the one-liners were. Not only
in Transformers, but (nearly) *all* the US-produced shows. Voltron I
don't know what to say about, because the only stuff I've been able to
find 'round here was from a REALLY early season... And it wasn't that
good, either. Inspector Gadget (don't think I've heard that one
mentioned) was just funny...still is if you don't start thinking. And
really, what's the point of thinking, for the most part, when watching
kids shows? That takes all the fun away.
8-Bit Star
Yea, but the show played in America for some time before Japan made a
spin-off. different story with Transformers.
>
> And what stories were changed in the translation? I thought anime
> referred to a Japanese creative project, that could be animated
> anywhere. Transformers is American is every way except the Toei
> animation.
In America, After Optimus gets ressurected, he... dies again. In the
Japanese one, he merges with Hot rod (I think... BTW there were also
a lot of name changes, Optimus Prime was simply called "Convoy")
and became the more powerful... God Ginrai I believe. Then he became
Victory Leo, then Victory Sabre, and ended the series. Its actually
more like we have two different shows.
>
> > > The in-show music to XGB
> > > is worthless ambient stuff, with as much connection to Outer
Limits
> as
> > > the original GB.
> >
> > Outer Limits? The old 50s Horror show (NOT the new one that plays
on
> > Sci-Fi)?
>
> The old one.
>
> My point is that the musical score to XGB has little in common with
the
> original series. Yes, the theme is a revamping.
Oh, okay.
>
> > > But seriously, I don't believe any 80s series compares to the
scores
> > > and themes of Batman Beyond,
> >
> > This had a theme?
>
> The opening theme to Batman Beyond is all over the Internet.
Ah, I haven't really looked (I don't usually look up stuff I don't
like except to find anti-pages... actually, I even look up Anti-pages
for stuff I DO like, because I find Anti-pages amusing).
>
> > > Phantom 2040,
> >
> > Never seen.
>
> Aniamtion is crumby (like a lot of those 80s series), but the writing
> for about 85 percent of the episodes is among the best an animation
fan
> will see.
Might rent it then...
>
> > > Gargoyles,
> >
> > Errrr.... I didn't think its soundtrack was that great.
>
> Well, if you were into the orchestrated stuff, it was stellar in most
> ways.
If you say so, but the show failed to impress me.
>
> > > Invasion: Amerioca,
> >
> > The one 90s show I WANTED to see... and I missed it.
>
> Didn't miss much.
Was it THAT bad?
>
> > > Migthy Max, etc.
> >
> > Okay, now HERE was a classic in every way! This seems to prove that
> > even Toy Commercials can be great shows... course, I already knew
> > that, since almost EVERYTHING from the 80s was a Toy Commercial.
>
> We've... already discussed that.
Least its a good thing I ain't ENTIRELY against 90s cartoons, right?
>
> > > > Too bad that's exactly my point: Nowadays they simply try to
make
> > > > it LOOK good, in the eighties they COULDN't make them look good
so
> > > > they had to actually BE good. <
> > >
> > > Talk to enough animation fans, and they'll say they failed
> miserably.
> >
> > I'd like them to explain how outside of none of the shows lasting
more
> > than about three years.
>
> Huh? Street Sharks lasted more than three years. So has Batman.
I was talking about 80s shows. You said 80s shows were failures, and
the only example of that I could think of was their short length.
Ehhh, I hate those kinda people...
>
> I know *I* got that feeling watching Thundercats and Votlron for the
> first time in nearly a decade. Those were two of my favorite shows as
> a kid. Transformers held up, though. Real Ghostbusters was a BETTER
> show than what I remembered as a kid.
Actually, Voltron I had never recalled seeing as a kid (though my
sister ensured me that I had, and then the theme song gave me a sense
of deja vu... but almost everything does that) but I still liked it
when I saw it for the possibly first time on KASN about three years
ago (Now known as UPN, and I think its a local channel... oh, and
the freaking idiots cancelled ALL their cartoons and replaced them
with boring news shows).
>
> > > > > > Anyway, for people who want continuity, character
development,
> > > > > > etc. watch anime. It does all that stuff WITHOUT being
> boring.
> > <
> > > > >
> > > > > I've seen plenty of boring anime with all that.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you! This of course proves that none of it means a damn
> thing
> > > > about a show's quality.
> > >
> > > But I thoguht the argument was that the best of anime shows that a
> > > higher narrative standard doesn't mean boring material.
> >
> > No, just that if you want it, go watch anime. I don't worship it,
but
> > even the worst of anime does that stuff without boring me like
> American
> > shows do. Hell, the only time I'm repulsed by anime is when its
> > mixed with 3D Computer Rendering (Or when its Dragon Ball Z).
>
> For me, the worst of anime is bad animation, period, even when
compared
> to Street Sharks.
Well, true, I wouldn't say DBZ held a candle to Street Sharks either.
(And Puppy would probably like to put a lot more on the list).
> The Battle for Space Station S-1 (if you haven't
> seen it, don't) is BAD. Period. Street Sharks was relatively sub-par
> compared to that garbage.
>
> <snip>
>
> > (Now if only I could find some James Bond Jr... more to subject
Puppy
> > to it than anything else).
>
> I think of JBJ as an example of animation that'd be RIGHT AT HOME in
> the 80s. No continuity, character development, or anything resembling
> quality animation.
If all that defines "Quality" then anything that wasn't made in the
90s is gonna suck. Sure thing I don't abide by these limits of taste,
otherwise I'd have to stop watching Speed Racer, Popeye, Garfield,
etc...
As for JBJ itself, I was thinking of it more as a joke (Puppy recently
got a big thing for James Bond because he read some of Ian Fleming's
original novels). I didn't really like it, but I didn't hate it
either. It was just something I watched.
Come to think of it, a lot of early 90s stuff was pretty good...
I do recall liking Peter Pan & the Pirates (And, oddly enough, it
DOES have character development).
8-Bit Star
I liked Dark Water (And the Genesis game was pretty good to boot),
made in late 80s or early 90s BTW, but I mostly wanted to comment
on Peter Pan (made in 1990).
First off, it was VERY accurate. Being a TV series, it took liberties,
but some of the character traits were accurate, though they didn't
match the physical descriptions from the book (Disney's is more
accurate in that area).
The Lost Boys, however, didn't really have much personality to speak
of in the novel (I'm not aware if there's more than one or not).
Oh yea, and Disney's Tinkerbell is almost completely consistent with
the book, even down to the not being able to talk.
Both versions took some liberties with Pan though... he was a prick
in the book.
>
> --
> Matt Martin -=- b u f o r d @ n e k o m u s u m e . n e t
> UR Japanese Anime Club -=- http://nekomusume.net/uranime/
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-
> "The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of
> moral progress in the world."
> -- Bertrand Russell
>
Ethan Hammond
>
> 8-Bit Star wrote:
>
> > In article <bgrubb-932E59....@www.zianet.com>,
> > Bruce Grubb <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > Bakc in the good ol'
> > days, Dem companies couldn't do that... they had to actually
> > MAKE shows!
>
> <SNIP>
>
> If all you're going to do is slip into bitter old man mode, you'd be
> best off keeping your comments to your bitter old self, IMHO.
And that was the way it was and we liked it.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Ethan Hammond
> been nothing more than a "serious" Jetsons. yeah, Jetsons is classic
> American animation, but it hasn't spawned a frickin' subculture like
> Star Trek has. Live action is much more successful at the whole
> suspension of disbelief thing. As soon as something's animated, it's
> fantasy. (Uh, for most people.) Essentially, if the original ST had
> been animated, we would not have TNG, DS9, voyager, over half a dozen
> movies, conventions, or the Klingon Bible. Wether this is a good thing
> or not I leave up to the individual to decide.
There is a cartoon of the original Star Trek. It used to be on Nickelodeon
back in the 80's when the channel was actually good. It was horrible,
horrible stuff. The live action as you assumed is far superior.
Ethan Hammond
> Japanese one, he merges with Hot rod (I think... BTW there were also
> a lot of name changes, Optimus Prime was simply called "Convoy")
> and became the more powerful... God Ginrai I believe. Then he became
> Victory Leo, then Victory Sabre, and ended the series. Its actually
> more like we have two different shows.
Actually you are wrong about both of those.
In the US Transfomer Optimus dies in the movie then he comes back to
life and dies again in Dark Awakening
and then comes back in The Return of Optimus Prime.
He then leads the Autobots in the US Transformers finale, Rebirth.
In the Japanese Transformers Convoy and Megatron die in Scramble
City. In Japanese Transformers the movie is not cannon, but more of a
side story type deal. The 3rd season of Japanese Transformers
is called Transformers 2010. Rodimus Convoy leads the Autobots against
Galvatron who is a completely separate chracter from Megatron.
2010 ends with the Return of Convoy.
Rebirth does not happen in Japanese TF and instead a completely
new show is created called Headmasters. Convoy dies in the 3rd
episode of Headmasters and Cybertron is destrozed in like the
10th episode of Headmasters by Megazarak(Scorponok). Megazarak
buries Galvatron in snow. Rodimus Convoy gives the Matrix to
Fortress Maximus and goes off with the surviving original autobots
to look for a new Cybertron. He is never seen again.
The next series is Masterforce which features Ginrai(Powermaster
Optimus Prime). Although Ginrai looks just like Convoy, he is a
completely separate character.
The next series after this is Victory which features Star Sabre.
Ginrai gets mortally wounded saying Star Sabre in battle and
is turned into a Lion Robot called Victory Leo. Victory Leo
combines with Star Sabre to form Victory Sabre.
The final Japanese TF is an OAV called Transformers Zone which
stars Di Atulus(something). In Zone Victory Sabre is wounded in
battle and Di Atulus takes over. The seven great Destron(Decepticon)
leaders are resurrected in Zone and destroyed by Di Atulus.