What Bugs Me About Anime Fans
8-Bit Star
1. THEY ALWAYS OVERGENERALIZE/BASTARDIZE ARGUEMENTS
I'm not talking about anime fans as a whole. I never am.
Usually I *very specifically* point out one small fraction
of the anime fandom that bothers me, and take *paragraphs*
just to make this clear.
But does it ever help? No. Apparently, Anime fans
can't seem to grasp the concept of someone who hates
*specific* groups of anime fans but not anime fans as
a whole.
Some time ago, on a messageboard, I got into a discussion
where I mentioned "Otaku" in a negative light. I *clearly*
stated that I was using the TRUE definition of Otaku, which
is someone with an unhealthy obsession with something. I
took a 15-line paragraph making *sure* there was no way any
present anime fans could get any other idea than the one I
was trying to convey, but WHAT HAPPENS? They accuse me of
bashing anime fans in general, AGAIN, despite that that was
clearly what I was *not* doing! I used a whole response to
try to correct the misconception, but it never seemed to
register, and instead the anime fan I managed to accidentally
tick off attacked me to the point where the discussion was
about to erupt in flames, all because the fan in question
couldn't understand that she made a mistake!
Really, it's pointless to even try to narrow out *specific*
anime fans, because as far as they're concerned, there are
no fractions, just one big whole.
To paraphrase Psycho Dave's excellent "Why I Hate Anime Geeks"
Article: "I get messages from these people all the time, who
bitch about how I overgeneralize. They, of course, aren't really
reading my articles -- they are seeing some aspects of themselves
portrayed, and jump to the conclusion that i am attacking them."
Let's face it: They never, *ever* give a straight, direct
response to any arguements brought up, and instead end up confusing
the arguement until it's nothing but a senseless mass of babbling.
To drive the point home: Let's see how many Otaku here actually
read this *whole thing* and then make a direct, intelligent response
to it. Chances are, only about two or three will pass, and the
rest will simply try to flame me.
2. THEY ALL MAKE THE SAME, STUPID ASSUMPTIONS, DESPITE ALL
EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY
On a related note: In the minds of Otaku (I'm using the
Bastardized Anime Fan definition this time) not liking Anime
fans is somehow the same as not liking Anime. Also, not liking
Anime or even one Anime in particular is somehow an attack on
Anime Fandom, even if you don't say *anything* derogatory about
the Fans. Even if you say something as simple as "I don't like
Sailor Moon" they take that out of proportion and end up somehow
thinking you hate *all* anime!
I myself have fallen under this same category several times. Somehow,
not liking Ghost in the Shell and Ninja Scroll means I must also hate
Ranma,
Voltron, Robotech, and Galaxy Express 999, despite my ever-growing
Robotech DVD collection and my openly stating otherwise.
Another typical Anime Fan assumption is that if you don't
like anime, you must have not seen much of it outside of the
"Crap" on TV (Almost all of which were big names in Otakudom
3-5 years ago, BTW). Again, I've fallen under this category, despite
my having seen not *just* the "TV Crap" but also a good chunk of
what was popular in the late 90s and many non-suggested ones that
I picked up at random, and about ten or so that many Otaku had never
even heard of before this year (Like Sherlock Hound, which was obscure
until some company picked it up for DVD release, and Ninja the Wonder
Boy, which to my knowledge is still an unknown title), yet, because I
don't
like *certain* titles, I'm "ignorant" to *all* anime. Does that make
sense
to any non-Otaku out there?
3. DELUDED ELATION OF CARTOONS
Years ago, Otaku were raving about how Sailor Moon (which
I just addressed), Dragon Ball Z (A bunch of endless fighting),
Ghost in the Shell ("Not Really" Nude girl fights people), Akira
(Blood, guts, no content), Macross Plus (A sh**ty love story)
and Tenchi (which varies depending on which version you watch)
had such excellent plotlines, how "deep" they were, how complex
the characters!
They still do that, except now the list has been updated
to include more recent anime, because the older stuff is being
played on TV, so we're all having a chance to see that, good
as it may be, it obviously isn't a collection of masterpieces
like Otaku would like to believe.
I can think of exactly *one* person (besides myself) who
likes an anime--Cowboy Bebop--For being what it *is*, rather
than having to delude himself into believing it's some sort
of Sci-Fi masterpiece. Said guy is, sadly, a troll (which
unfortunately gives the simple-minded Otaku an excuse to
blow off any good points he makes).
I myself like Robotech. I like it *not* because it
has some sort of deep, meaningful plot (Which it doesn't),
but rather because it has action, suspense, great music, the
corn factor of the ever-present narrator, and because I have
a thing for shows of a serial nature (Except for when it's
convenient for one of my little raves that I don't).
It's really, really sad that Otaku feel they have to
justify their preferences. Not only because it blocks them
from enjoying all but a meager 10% of what's available, but
because their delusions end up turning them into unreasonable
hypocrites.
4. THE GENERAL TREND OF SAMEYNESS IN THE FANDOM
This one's easy to prove: Try asking them to recommend
anime to you (or wait for a newbie to ask for recommendations).
They'll all recommend the same thing. These anime they list
are pretty much all they talk about in other threads, which
makes it even *worse*. After a normal day on rec.arts.anime.misc,
the *only* reason I don't want to watch Utena, Tenchi, Cowboy
Bebop, Outlaw Star, Ghost in the Shell, or various Gundams is
simply because I got bored hearing so damn much about them.
Now, let's suppose you actually *do* like anime, but the
anime you happen to like just doesn't happen to be one of the
"Big names." Try saying, say, that you like Speed Racer or
Robotech. Either you'll be flamed for having different tastes
in anime, or they'll become condescending and try to baby-step
you into watching "Real" anime.
Besides that, I can't think of how many times many of the
same subjects have kept coming up. When that happens, you can
usually expect the repeat to be a big, long post. I've seen
precisely *four* Goku vs. Superman threads. One on
Yesterdayland.com, another on the PlanetNamek forum, and *two*
on rec.arts.anime.misc. On RAAM, the post was f***ing long
(as if that was even a remotely interesting subject--Goku would
obviously win). And this isn't the only one.
It's no wonder I often have to take week-long breaks from
that newsgroup (or any place that predominantly features Otaku).
Threads in general tend to be samey, with the exact same arguements
being made again and again, always ending at a stalemate and
starting over again next week. And unless it involves DBZ (or
the Cable brothers) no one ever disagrees (because the Otaku
would go haywire if you did). So basically you'll see big long
threads where basically someone says something someone agrees
with and everyone else chimes in to talk about how right he is.
Occasionally a "Troll" comes in, but we can't have someone actually
making the thread *interesting* so everyone has to killfile him
and go back to talking about how right everyone else is.
5. BLATANT DOUBLE-STANDARDS WITH REGARDS TO AMERICAN
CARTOONS
[This one was originally up-front, but I decided to put it here
because otherwise the Otaku would've ignored the rest of the article
and responded to this alone].
I one time saw an Otaku claim American toons were all
comedies. This is, obviously, wrong, so I merely pointed
out as much (No flames or anything) and what happened? He
snapped at me!
Chances are, if I had went in, saying "Anime is nothing
but comedies" he would, too, have tried to correct me, like
I tried to correct him. Remember, in Otakudom, they already
go hay crazy if you try to point out flaws in any given anime.
So, it's alright to make obviously wrong generalizations
about American Cartoons, but anyone who comments on Anime has
to have an Anime Encyclopedia handy before their comments are
valid.
This isn't even the worst of the Double-Standards. Anime
Fans make up about half of another crowd I hate--those who bash
classic 80s Cartoons, for reasons like "They're nothing but
toy commercials", "They're all cheaply produced" and "The animation
really sucked." (Remember, they're criticizing a whole ten-year
output for all this). What's sad is that alot of these "Flaws"
are true for a lot of anime, as well, a few examples:
Watch Thundercats. Notice something about the animation?
It is 100% an exact mimic of anime style! Yet somehow Thundercats
has sucky, cheap animation, but the average anime (which, again,
has no stylistic difference) doesn't.
One anime that Otaku really like (unless it's convenient
for their arguement that they consider it "TV Trash") is Sailor
Moon, an anime that is riddled with stock footage, corny dialogue,
and formula plotlines. This leads to one of my favorite match
ups: Sailor Moon vs. She-Ra (It was Sailor Moon vs. He-Man, but
I like She-Ra better).
She-Ra is very similar to Sailor Moon in many respects. They
both have the same plot--A girl finds out she's a princess and a
superhero and uses her powers to fight evil--both have corny
dialogue, and lots of stock footage. There is *absolutely nothing*
that makes one better than the other.
Here's where the Double-standard comes in: Sailor Moon is
considered an artistic, well-written epic, whereas She-Ra is
considered a cheap piece of crap meant to sell a toy. This is
despite that Sailor Moon was also toy-based, and She-Ra's makers
obviously put more effort into production than Sailor Moon's did
(They even rotoscoped it using live actors, and at *least* had
the decency to change the backgrounds for given situations--Sailor
Moon didn't even do *that*!).
And this leads me to the last Double-Standard: Samey character
designs. Both American and Japanese toons have a tendancy for 'em,
but somehow the Otaku can ignore it when it happens in anime, but
it's an unforgiveable sin if done in America.
Actually, there's one last double-standard: Otaku are always
bitching about how American toons should be more mature--but
they conveniently ignore the fact that mature American toons have
been being produced in America for a *long* time (most predominantly
since 1992).
Geoff Watson
8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3C69D108...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> I'm not talking about anime fans as a whole.
Great Troll!
Geoff.
Danger X
"Geoff Watson" <geoffre...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:3c69dc09$0$24584$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
You could read all of that without sleeping?
Just wondering,
Kyle
Metlhd3138
Last i checked 8 bit star isnt a troll. I mean, by that estimation, someone
saying "compared to the manga, battle angel sucks" is a troll.
Tsurugi
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to jump out and
point. :P
I donno which infests this newsgroup more these days... trolls, or
troll spotters.
Tsuuuuuuuu! XD
8-Bit Star
Danger X wrote:
Either he was joking or both of you just proved that all my points
are 100% correct.
>
>
> Just wondering,
> Kyle
Metlhd3138
>I donno which infests this newsgroup more these days... trolls, or
>troll spotters.
Maybe we need an army of elves to defend us<G>.
Danger X
"But does it ever help? No."
Good point! Why waste your time after that?
More or less,
Kyle
Skeleton Man
"8-Bit Star" <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3C69E488...@hotmail.com...
> Either he was joking or both of you just proved that all my points
> are 100% correct.
>
Nope. You were right.
--
Skeleton Man
http://users.lvcm.com/artfx
The SHADOWSKIN is COMING!!
Fish Eye no Miko
news:20020212231121...@mb-mk.aol.com...
> >I donno which infests this newsgroup more these days... trolls,
> >or troll spotters.
>
> Maybe we need an army of elves to defend us<G>.
Oh! Oh! I get Legolas as a personal body guard!
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"I will take the Ring to Mordor, though I do not know the way."
-Frodo Baggins, _The Fellowship of the Ring_.
Tsurugi
Hehee... aren't Otaku great? ;D
Tsuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu! XD
. . . also a troll.
Robert Hutchinson
> 8-Bit Star wrote ...
> > I'm not talking about anime fans as a whole.
>
> Great Troll!
Now, now. 8-Bit's not a troll. He only responds to them constantly,
that's all.
--
I just found out (what everyone knows)
Robert Hutchinson |
| "Butterflies are real asses."
| -- Conan O'Brien
|
8-Bit Star
Danger X wrote:
Hmm...
GOOD POINT! Thanks man! You're a pal!
>
>
> More or less,
> Kyle
Blade
8-Bit Star wrote:
>
> 1. THEY ALWAYS OVERGENERALIZE/BASTARDIZE ARGUEMENTS
> I'm not talking about anime fans as a whole. I never am.
Uh-huh.
> Usually I *very specifically* point out one small fraction
> of the anime fandom that bothers me, and take *paragraphs*
> just to make this clear.
Yet...
> Really, it's pointless to even try to narrow out *specific*
> anime fans, because as far as they're concerned, there are
> no fractions, just one big whole.
...and...
> Let's face it: They never, *ever* give a straight, direct
> response to any arguements brought up, and instead end up confusing
> the arguement until it's nothing but a senseless mass of babbling.
> To drive the point home: Let's see how many Otaku here actually
> read this *whole thing* and then make a direct, intelligent response
> to it. Chances are, only about two or three will pass, and the
> rest will simply try to flame me.
Thus, allowing good 'ol 8-bit to respond to any refutation of his Divine
Theorem with "See? I -told- you they'd flame me!" Only "I agree" is
allowed to pass the muster.
> 2. THEY ALL MAKE THE SAME, STUPID ASSUMPTIONS, DESPITE ALL
> EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY
Yeah. And they overgeneralise, too!
> I can think of exactly *one* person (besides myself) who
> likes an anime--Cowboy Bebop--For being what it *is*, rather
> than having to delude himself into believing it's some sort
> of Sci-Fi masterpiece. Said guy is, sadly, a troll (which
I like Ed. And Spike is pretty cool. It's an expensive TV show with
some decent style to it, a tacked on plotline, and an ending I
personally found dissatisfying.
Since I'm not a troll, I guess now you will be able to think of two
people.
> unfortunately gives the simple-minded Otaku an excuse to
> blow off any good points he makes).
And they overgeneralise, too! After all, there's no reason not to like
the trolls on this group!
> I myself like Robotech. I like it *not* because it
> has some sort of deep, meaningful plot (Which it doesn't),
> but rather because it has action, suspense, great music, the
> corn factor of the ever-present narrator, and because I have
> a thing for shows of a serial nature (Except for when it's
> convenient for one of my little raves that I don't).
> It's really, really sad that Otaku feel they have to
> justify their preferences. Not only because it blocks them
> from enjoying all but a meager 10% of what's available, but
> because their delusions end up turning them into unreasonable
> hypocrites.
...I have to wonder if this is deliberate, by this point.
> 4. THE GENERAL TREND OF SAMEYNESS IN THE FANDOM
> This one's easy to prove: Try asking them to recommend
> anime to you (or wait for a newbie to ask for recommendations).
> They'll all recommend the same thing. These anime they list
What they like. How amazing is THAT?
> are pretty much all they talk about in other threads, which
> makes it even *worse*. After a normal day on rec.arts.anime.misc,
> the *only* reason I don't want to watch Utena, Tenchi, Cowboy
> Bebop, Outlaw Star, Ghost in the Shell, or various Gundams is
> simply because I got bored hearing so damn much about them.
The two most popular of those shows here are Utena and Bebop, neither of
which are liked by a vocal majority of this group (hell, a large
percentage of the group has never even seen the former). Some shows get
recommended a lot...but saying "everybody" would recommend the same
thing is pure bullshit.
> Now, let's suppose you actually *do* like anime, but the
> anime you happen to like just doesn't happen to be one of the
> "Big names." Try saying, say, that you like Speed Racer or
> Robotech. Either you'll be flamed for having different tastes
> in anime, or they'll become condescending and try to baby-step
> you into watching "Real" anime.
Yeah, I've seen so many Robotech fans on this group get told off and
condescendingly informed to watch "real" anime like DBZ and Outlaw Star.
Oh no, wait, I haven't. Ever. Perhaps you're thinking of a different
newsgroup?
> Besides that, I can't think of how many times many of the
> same subjects have kept coming up. When that happens, you can
> usually expect the repeat to be a big, long post. I've seen
> precisely *four* Goku vs. Superman threads. One on
> Yesterdayland.com, another on the PlanetNamek forum, and *two*
> on rec.arts.anime.misc. On RAAM, the post was f***ing long
Only two? You obviously haven't been around long.
> It's no wonder I often have to take week-long breaks from
> that newsgroup (or any place that predominantly features Otaku).
No wonder, indeed. Feel free to take even longer breaks if that makes
you feel better. We'll try, somehow, to carry on without you.
> Threads in general tend to be samey, with the exact same arguements
> being made again and again, always ending at a stalemate and
> starting over again next week. And unless it involves DBZ (or
> the Cable brothers) no one ever disagrees (because the Otaku
<LAUGH>
Considering who I am, do I really even need to respond to this? No, I
think not.
> would go haywire if you did). So basically you'll see big long
> threads where basically someone says something someone agrees
> with and everyone else chimes in to talk about how right he is.
> Occasionally a "Troll" comes in, but we can't have someone actually
> making the thread *interesting* so everyone has to killfile him
> and go back to talking about how right everyone else is.
<yawn> Yep, RAAM was so boring until Gaza came along and lightened up
our dreary lives.
> 5. BLATANT DOUBLE-STANDARDS WITH REGARDS TO AMERICAN
> CARTOONS
> [This one was originally up-front, but I decided to put it here
> because otherwise the Otaku would've ignored the rest of the article
> and responded to this alone].
Nah, this actually has an element of truth to it. Of course, it's
written with the same contemptuous,
you-are-all-not-worthy-to-breathe-the-same-air-as-I tone that you write
everything else, and contains the same tiresome overgeneralisations and
simplifications as the rest of this post.
Hey, 8-bit...you ever consider that one reason so many people seem to
"snap" at you might have more to do with HOW you say things rather than
what you're saying? That maybe, just maybe, if you didn't come off as
-quite- so much of an egotistical asshole, people might be more willing
to listen?
Oh, wait. You're the same guy who says we all agreed with each other
until Rob and the Cables came along to say something "interesting".
Never mind.
Blade
*******
Also Known As: Chris McNeil, The Annoying Jerk, The Enemy of Democracy,
"That Guy That Can't Write A Lunch Menu Without Pantyhose Tarou Being In
It Somewhere"
All web pages, except my Evil Zone one, down
till further notice. Bleahh. >_<
"Oh, come on. Being printed "in English" is no reason to choose a
particular spelling. If it were, we'd all be saying "Captain Herlock.""
- Trish Ledoux on the Ah!/Oh My Goddess controversy, 14/09/93
Danger X
Hey! If only all disagreements were so easily solved!
Cheers!
Kyle
Arthur Levesque
8BS>I'm not talking about anime fans as a whole. I never am. Usually I
8BS>*very specifically* point out one small fraction of the anime fandom
8BS>that bothers me, and take *paragraphs* just to make this clear...
8BS>I *clearly* stated that I was using the TRUE definition of Otaku...
The distinction I use is between fans (who like something) and
fanboys (who are obsessed and unable to think rationally about the
target of their obsession; and take any and all criticism personally).
It's not even an anime thing, it spans all of fandom -- like the
difference between Trekkers and Trekkies, etc.
--
/\ Arthur M Levesque 2A4W <*> b...@boog.orgy =/\= http://boog.org __
\B\ack King of the Potato People <fnord> "Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!" (oO)
\S\lash When is Alec Baldwin going to leave? (-O-) Urban Spaceman /||\
\/ I was a lesbian before it was fashionable "I hate rainbows!"-EC
8-Bit Star
Blade wrote:
> 8-Bit Star wrote:
<Snipped the rest of Blade's spot-on and often rather funny response>
Notice that I actually admitted I snipped some of Blade's good points...
Whcih of course proves that I'm totally willing to admit when I'm at
fault (Something Blade likes to repeatedly deny).
>
> > 5. BLATANT DOUBLE-STANDARDS WITH REGARDS TO AMERICAN
> > CARTOONS
> > [This one was originally up-front, but I decided to put it here
> > because otherwise the Otaku would've ignored the rest of the article
> > and responded to this alone].
>
> Nah, this actually has an element of truth to it. Of course, it's
> written with the same contemptuous,
> you-are-all-not-worthy-to-breathe-the-same-air-as-I tone that you write
> everything else,
Which, except for some posts where I'm countering your fellow Otaku who
do the exact same thing, is a blatant lie.
> and contains the same tiresome overgeneralisations and
> simplifications as the rest of this post.
>
> Hey, 8-bit...you ever consider that one reason so many people seem to
> "snap" at you might have more to do with HOW you say things rather than
> what you're saying?
I recognize that when it's true--which yes, actually *has* happened quite a
number of times. Despite what you seem to like to believe, no, it's *not*
always 100% my fault I get snapped at. Especially on some fandom-specific
message boards which forbid flaming. It was on one such board that an Otaku
snapped at me. This isn't the only Otaku horror story I've ever had. It's
also
an odd coincidence that these Otakus were also usually the only people who
found me worthy of being snapped at. Everyone else (and sometimes even
the less obsessive Otaku) never found me so offending. Yes I'll admit there
are times when I am at fault, and when *everyone* gets mad at me. Now it's
time for *you* to admit that, yes, sometimes the Otaku are at fault.
> That maybe, just maybe, if you didn't come off as
> -quite- so much of an egotistical asshole, people might be more willing
> to listen?
There are only two times I'm ever egotistical. In the first instance, the
discussion
is non-serious and thus I'm usually joking anyway. The second time is in a
heated
flame war, in which case I'm showing what virtues I have that my enemy
doesn't.
Neither are serious discussions and anything goes.
Any other time, I'm not being egotistical, though many of the people I've
been
in arguements with like to believe so because it gives them a convenient
excuse
to dodge my points. Hell, I've even noticed several problems with myself
that
most others miss, and have criticized myself and almost all of my own
writing on
several occasions, so I'm obviously not egotistical.
Ethan Hammond
How long did this take you to type? What? What? What? What?
Go watch Nuku Nuku and Bastard and read all the manga and stop your
whining.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
alan
"Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3C6A36...@worldnet.att.net...
> 8-Bit Star wrote:
<snip>
> How long did this take you to type? What? What? What? What?
> Go watch Nuku Nuku and Bastard and read all the manga and stop your
> whining.
>
> --
> All Purpose Cultural Randomness
> http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
It's kind of funny how as of this posting, Blade was the only one to respond
to his points. I think Ethan is right: Go watch some Japanese cartoons,
read their comic books, and be happy.
Frank Raymond Michaels
Always worked for me...
---
FRM
David Johnston
> To drive the point home: Let's see how many Otaku here actually
> read this *whole thing* and then make a direct, intelligent response
> to it.
Your grasp of basic logic is really weak. Since you define anyone who
makes an intelligent response as not being an "otaku", then obviously no
"otaku" will make one.
Chances are, only about two or three will pass, and the
> rest will simply try to flame me.
>
> 2. THEY ALL MAKE THE SAME, STUPID ASSUMPTIONS, DESPITE ALL
> EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY
> On a related note: In the minds of Otaku (I'm using the
> Bastardized Anime Fan definition this time) not liking Anime
> fans is somehow the same as not liking Anime.
Since anyone who likes anime is an anime fan, someone who dislikes
anime fans while liking anime, dislikes theirself. Now of course
it is theoretically possible to not care about anime while disliking
anime fans but it seems a odd thing to dislike if you have no opinion
on the subject of anime. Why would someone who didn't care at all about
anime read or post anything at all in rec.arts.anime.misc?
While you did write a disclaimer at the start claiming that you weren't
referring to anime fans in general, I have to balance that against your
specific statement right here that you are referring to anime fans in
general.
Also, not liking
> Anime or even one Anime in particular is somehow an attack on
> Anime Fandom, even if you don't say *anything* derogatory about
> the Fans. Even if you say something as simple as "I don't like
> Sailor Moon" they take that out of proportion and end up somehow
> thinking you hate *all* anime!
Who are these imaginary people you are talking about?
Many, many people have posted in rec.arts.anime.misc saying that they
hate Sailor Moon, or Dragonball Z or Evangelion and not once have they
been accused of hating anime in general that I have seen. Please
provide examples of some people actually doing what you claim the
"Otaku" are actually doing. I find myself particularly skeptical of
your claim since I am on record repeatedly as saying that I hate
Evangelion, Dragonball Z and Odin with the purity of passion that verges
on bigotry and not once, not once, have I received any messages accusing
me of hating anime in general.
And, by the way, I STILL despise Dragonball Z (which is a tedious
exercise in uninteresting fighting scenes and ludicrous
fantasies of limitless power) and I STILL despise Evangelion (because
all the characters save Misato are repellent and I don't give a damn
whether they live or die). And I'm willing to bet that although fans of
those shows may shower me with brickbats for my "misjudgement" of the
shows in question, not one of them will accuse me of disliking Ranma
1/2, Project A-ko or Gall Force on this occasion or any other.
Nobody will shower me with brickbats for disliking Odin, though.
Maybe a single whiffle bat, since there's no series so bad that there
isn't someone out there willing to like it. Somewhere out there,
there's one Odin fan...just as somewhere out there there is one Starlost
fan.
> I myself have fallen under this same category several times. Somehow,
>
> not liking Ghost in the Shell and Ninja Scroll means I must also hate
> Ranma,
> Voltron, Robotech, and Galaxy Express 999, despite my ever-growing
> Robotech DVD collection and my openly stating otherwise.
Cite!
Bear in mind, though that people may have assumed that you dislike
anime because you spent time championing a pair of idiots who
posted a couple of hundred generically insulting messages about anime
and people who like anime. One is known by the company one keeps, after
all.
> Another typical Anime Fan assumption is that if you don't
> like anime, you must have not seen much of it outside of the
> "Crap" on TV (Almost all of which were big names in Otakudom
> 3-5 years ago, BTW).
All of which still are big names in Otakudom, although an otaku is
almost by definition unhappy with the english dub and editing job of
just about any of them.
> It's really, really sad that Otaku feel they have to
> justify their preferences. Not only because it blocks them
> from enjoying all but a meager 10% of what's available,
As long as it is the 10% they actually like, what's the problem
with that?
but
> because their delusions end up turning them into unreasonable
> hypocrites.
Are you just pissed that your favourite series aren't all that
popular with the "in-crowd"?
>
> 4. THE GENERAL TREND OF SAMEYNESS IN THE FANDOM
> This one's easy to prove: Try asking them to recommend
> anime to you (or wait for a newbie to ask for recommendations).
> They'll all recommend the same thing.
This strikes me as circular logic. If you define all the people
who make the same recommendations as otaku and anyone who makes a
different or unusual recommendation as a non-otaku, then it should
come as no surprise that they all make the same recommendations.
You've defined everyone who makes a different recommendation out of
your field of reference. Thus, I am not an otaku because I habitually
recommend "They Were Eleven" a fairly old and forgotten film, even if I
sit around Saturday in my bathrobe watching anime tapes for twelve hours
straight.
Er...hypothetically speaking.
More importantly, have you considered the possibility that "everyone"
(except for the people who aren't "everyone") recommends the popular
series because, by definition, a popular series is one that a lot of
people like at the moment? There's no escape from it, you know.
Go into rec.arts.tv and ask them what the best dramas are on tv and
"everyone" (except for the people who aren't "everyone") will trot out
and recommend "West Wing" and a few other shows that show up in the top
ten, plus some shows that have more restricted but large andverbally
enthusiastic followings. Very, very few of them will recommend Glory
Days, or reruns of Queen of Swords, or Between the Lines, or a number
of the other shows I like. Objecting to the existence of majority
preferences is like objecting to any other inevitable fact of reality.
It's an exercise in meretricious whining.
> It's no wonder I often have to take week-long breaks from
> that newsgroup (or any place that predominantly features Otaku).
> Threads in general tend to be samey, with the exact same arguements
> being made again and again, always ending at a stalemate and
> starting over again next week. And unless it involves DBZ (or
> the Cable brothers) no one ever disagrees (because the Otaku
> would go haywire if you did). So basically you'll see big long
> threads where basically someone says something someone agrees
> with and everyone else chimes in to talk about how right he is.
You may. I don't. Threads in which everyone agrees are in my
experience pretty much invariably short. The really long threads
tend to be ones which inspire violent disagreement, albeit over
subjects that no normal person would care about.
> Occasionally a "Troll" comes in, but we can't have someone actually
> making the thread *interesting* so everyone has to killfile him
> and go back to talking about how right everyone else is.
Sure. Whatever. Personally I find people acting like assholes
to be boring, not interesting. Vague generic insults are tedious
to read through.
> I one time saw an Otaku claim American toons were all
> comedies. This is, obviously, wrong, so I merely pointed
> out as much (No flames or anything) and what happened? He
> snapped at me!
Oh heavens. The horror. Someone was rude when contradicted.
Well that certainly never happens on the internet except with
otaku. Yup, you can count on universal politeness and calm
acceptance of contradiction, whether you point out that Sea-Lion
was obviously doomed to failure on soc.history.what-if,
point out that someone is distorting the definition of "socialist"
on alt.politics, or explain the law of entropy to yet another
creationist who doesn't understand it but thinks he does on
talk.origins.
> Watch Thundercats. Notice something about the animation?
> It is 100% an exact mimic of anime style! Yet somehow Thundercats
> has sucky, cheap animation, but the average anime (which, again,
> has no stylistic difference) doesn't.
Exactly who said that Thundercats has sucky, cheap animation?
Not of course that I've ever seen it to judge one way or t'other.
Canadian television didn't run cartoons when it was on.
>
> One anime that Otaku really like (unless it's convenient
> for their arguement that they consider it "TV Trash") is Sailor
Hold on. Now that's just plain dishonest. What makes you think
that otaku are lieing when they say they don't like Sailor Moon?
A _lot_ of rabid anime fans don't really don't like Sailor Moon.
Me, I have mixed feelings about it.
> Moon, an anime that is riddled with stock footage, corny dialogue,
> and formula plotlines. This leads to one of my favorite match
> ups: Sailor Moon vs. She-Ra (It was Sailor Moon vs. He-Man, but
> I like She-Ra better).
> She-Ra is very similar to Sailor Moon in many respects. They
> both have the same plot--A girl finds out she's a princess and a
> superhero and uses her powers to fight evil--both have corny
> dialogue, and lots of stock footage. There is *absolutely nothing*
> that makes one better than the other.
<Shrug> Never seen She-Ra either save for one episode that I totally
fail to recall any details of except that it had this annoying character
in a pointy purple hat. But I have to wonder, how many of the villains
on She-Ra died? Did a villain ever switch sides and then die on She-Ra?
Did She-Ra ever finally defeat her arch-villain? Did She-Ra _kill_ her
arch-villain? Because, you know, that's something I liked about Sailor
Moon, even though most of the episodes were totally forgettable. That
slam-bang finish to the series with all the pyrotechnics as she took on
Queen Beryl and blew her up real good is something the likes of which I
rarely see on American children's television. And of course lesbians.
> And this leads me to the last Double-Standard: Samey character
> designs. Both American and Japanese toons have a tendancy for 'em,
> but somehow the Otaku can ignore it when it happens in anime, but
> it's an unforgiveable sin if done in America.
Really? I've never noticed anyone complaining about that. Are you sure
you did? Now anime fans will say that they like the current big eyed
Japanese style better than American toons with more realistic eye size
on occasion, but that's not the same thing as complaining about the
standardisation of their character design. It's just preferring a
different standard and preferring a different standard is a fan's
prerogative. And of course lesbians.
>
> Actually, there's one last double-standard: Otaku are always
> bitching about how American toons should be more mature--but
> they conveniently ignore the fact that mature American toons have
> been being produced in America for a *long* time (most predominantly
> since 1992).
And every year I see fewer and fewer anime fans making that claim in the
first place. A lot of it is simply out of date standards, opinions
formed when there was an absolutely clear dividing line between what you
could get away with on American television, and what you could get away
with on Japanese television.
Even so, I feel reasonably certain that if Curare had been an anime
character, that she would have been allowed to kill her bosses as in
fact she was not on Batman Beyond. Batman Beyond is a great show, one
of my favourites, but I was really annoyed that the WB placed that
constraint on the character even though it made no sense in the context
of the story.
On the other hand I've seen enough ludicrous gore on poorly chosen video
rentals to recognise that anime sometimes goes too far in the other
direction for my enjoyment.
And of course, lesbians.
kesi...@math.ttu.edu
: How long did this take you to type? What? What? What? What?
Were you under some obligation to quote the whole damn post?
==Jake
--
Jake Kesinger ``The danger already exists that mathematicians
<kesi...@math.ttu.edu> have made a covenant with the devil to darken
DVD Hub and Image Gallery the spirit and confine man in the bonds of Hell.''
<http://www.math.ttu.edu/~kesinger/dvd/> (St. Augustine)
8-Bit Star
alan wrote:
Yea, you're probably right.
Oh BTW, the other guy was wondering how long it took me to write this?
... Ten minutes, I think.
Andrew Hollingbury
> I'm not talking about anime fans as a whole. I never am.
> Usually I *very specifically* point out one small fraction
> of the anime fandom that bothers me, and take *paragraphs*
> just to make this clear.
Oakily doakily...
Fine then... you're just bashing SOME fans, not all.
>
>
> Let's face it: They never, *ever* give a straight, direct
> response to any arguements brought up, and instead end up confusing
> the arguement until it's nothing but a senseless mass of babbling.
> To drive the point home: Let's see how many Otaku here actually
> read this *whole thing* and then make a direct, intelligent response
> to it. Chances are, only about two or three will pass, and the
> rest will simply try to flame me.
Otaku in the "anime fan" sense, or otaku in the "obsession" sense?
Senseless obsession always produces irrationality - to be blunt, witness
Ethan Hammond's responses to many posts (they ARE sometimes funny though,
but there's only so much Nuku Nuku fun time in the world...)
This is sensible... so far...
> 3. DELUDED ELATION OF CARTOONS
> Years ago, Otaku were raving about how Sailor Moon (which
> I just addressed), Dragon Ball Z (A bunch of endless fighting),
> Ghost in the Shell ("Not Really" Nude girl fights people), Akira
> (Blood, guts, no content), Macross Plus (A sh**ty love story)
> and Tenchi (which varies depending on which version you watch)
> had such excellent plotlines, how "deep" they were, how complex
> the characters!
> They still do that, except now the list has been updated
> to include more recent anime, because the older stuff is being
> played on TV, so we're all having a chance to see that, good
> as it may be, it obviously isn't a collection of masterpieces
> like Otaku would like to believe.
If we're on the bastardised "Anime Fan" definition of Otaku that you seem to
be talking about, there are hordes of people who don't like Sailor Moon,
DBZ, GitS etc. (I like Sailor Moon and Tenchi, haven't seen Macross, don't
like the others).
Even so, fans are always going to like samples of their chosen fandom more
than non-fans.
You haven't really addressed Sailor Moon yet at this point in the post by
the way - that comes with the She Ra bashing I think (sorry to be pedantic
and sad here)
> I can think of exactly *one* person (besides myself) who
> likes an anime--Cowboy Bebop--For being what it *is*, rather
> than having to delude himself into believing it's some sort
> of Sci-Fi masterpiece. Said guy is, sadly, a troll (which
> unfortunately gives the simple-minded Otaku an excuse to
> blow off any good points he makes).
You're being deliberately antagonistic here - if you want a rational reply,
refrain from calling people "simple-minded". Though too many people flame
without due thought at the Cable posts I must say.
> I myself like Robotech. I like it *not* because it
> has some sort of deep, meaningful plot (Which it doesn't),
> but rather because it has action, suspense, great music, the
> corn factor of the ever-present narrator, and because I have
> a thing for shows of a serial nature (Except for when it's
> convenient for one of my little raves that I don't).
> It's really, really sad that Otaku feel they have to
> justify their preferences. Not only because it blocks them
> from enjoying all but a meager 10% of what's available, but
> because their delusions end up turning them into unreasonable
> hypocrites.
Wah?
Cowboy Bebop is admired by many, despite its mainly episodic nature, because
"it has action, suspense, great music". I like Vision of Escaflowne because
"it has action, suspense, great music... and because I have a thing for
shows of a serial nature". Neither show has a particularly deep meaningful
plot in reality...
For those in the know - how much was Robotech changed from its three
component anime?
> 4. THE GENERAL TREND OF SAMEYNESS IN THE FANDOM
> This one's easy to prove: Try asking them to recommend
> anime to you (or wait for a newbie to ask for recommendations).
> They'll all recommend the same thing. These anime they list
> are pretty much all they talk about in other threads, which
> makes it even *worse*. After a normal day on rec.arts.anime.misc,
> the *only* reason I don't want to watch Utena, Tenchi, Cowboy
> Bebop, Outlaw Star, Ghost in the Shell, or various Gundams is
> simply because I got bored hearing so damn much about them.
Surely people are allowed to recommend good shows?
> Now, let's suppose you actually *do* like anime, but the
> anime you happen to like just doesn't happen to be one of the
> "Big names." Try saying, say, that you like Speed Racer or
> Robotech. Either you'll be flamed for having different tastes
> in anime, or they'll become condescending and try to baby-step
> you into watching "Real" anime.
Besides that, I can't think of how many times many of the
> same subjects have kept coming up. When that happens, you can
> usually expect the repeat to be a big, long post. I've seen
> precisely *four* Goku vs. Superman threads. One on
> Yesterdayland.com, another on the PlanetNamek forum, and *two*
> on rec.arts.anime.misc. On RAAM, the post was f***ing long
> (as if that was even a remotely interesting subject--Goku would
> obviously win). And this isn't the only one.
New faces appear in newsgroups all the time - so repeated threads often
appear.
> It's no wonder I often have to take week-long breaks from
> that newsgroup (or any place that predominantly features Otaku).
> Threads in general tend to be samey, with the exact same arguements
> being made again and again, always ending at a stalemate and
> starting over again next week. And unless it involves DBZ (or
> the Cable brothers) no one ever disagrees (because the Otaku
> would go haywire if you did). So basically you'll see big long
> threads where basically someone says something someone agrees
> with and everyone else chimes in to talk about how right he is.
> Occasionally a "Troll" comes in, but we can't have someone actually
> making the thread *interesting* so everyone has to killfile him
> and go back to talking about how right everyone else is.
>
> 5. BLATANT DOUBLE-STANDARDS WITH REGARDS TO AMERICAN
> CARTOONS
> [This one was originally up-front, but I decided to put it here
> because otherwise the Otaku would've ignored the rest of the article
> and responded to this alone].
> I one time saw an Otaku claim American toons were all
> comedies. This is, obviously, wrong, so I merely pointed
> out as much (No flames or anything) and what happened? He
> snapped at me!
Whenever anyone says "I merely pointed out as much" they mean "I wrote a
rude/patronising reply stating that said person was completely wrong".
Whether it appeared so to them is another matter...
> Chances are, if I had went in, saying "Anime is nothing
> but comedies" he would, too, have tried to correct me, like
> I tried to correct him. Remember, in Otakudom, they already
> go hay crazy if you try to point out flaws in any given anime.
> So, it's alright to make obviously wrong generalizations
> about American Cartoons, but anyone who comments on Anime has
> to have an Anime Encyclopedia handy before their comments are
> valid.
> This isn't even the worst of the Double-Standards. Anime
> Fans make up about half of another crowd I hate--those who bash
> classic 80s Cartoons, for reasons like "They're nothing but
> toy commercials", "They're all cheaply produced" and "The animation
> really sucked." (Remember, they're criticizing a whole ten-year
> output for all this). What's sad is that alot of these "Flaws"
> are true for a lot of anime, as well, a few examples:
>
> Watch Thundercats. Notice something about the animation?
> It is 100% an exact mimic of anime style! Yet somehow Thundercats
> has sucky, cheap animation, but the average anime (which, again,
> has no stylistic difference) doesn't.
I'd have to disagree - Thundercats looks much more Western to my mind - not
many dropped frames, proportionate characters etc.
I really like Thundercats...
> One anime that Otaku really like (unless it's convenient
> for their arguement that they consider it "TV Trash") is Sailor
> Moon, an anime that is riddled with stock footage, corny dialogue,
> and formula plotlines. This leads to one of my favorite match
> ups: Sailor Moon vs. She-Ra (It was Sailor Moon vs. He-Man, but
> I like She-Ra better).
> She-Ra is very similar to Sailor Moon in many respects. They
> both have the same plot--A girl finds out she's a princess and a
> superhero and uses her powers to fight evil--both have corny
> dialogue, and lots of stock footage. There is *absolutely nothing*
> that makes one better than the other.
> Here's where the Double-standard comes in: Sailor Moon is
> considered an artistic, well-written epic, whereas She-Ra is
> considered a cheap piece of crap meant to sell a toy. This is
> despite that Sailor Moon was also toy-based,
Sailor Moon was based on a popular comic book series in Japan, NOT a toy.
and She-Ra's makers
> obviously put more effort into production than Sailor Moon's did
> (They even rotoscoped it using live actors, and at *least* had
> the decency to change the backgrounds for given situations--Sailor
> Moon didn't even do *that*!).
Where is the serial nature in She-Ra? Despite the very episodic nature of
parts of Sailor Moon, there IS a plot-arc.
> And this leads me to the last Double-Standard: Samey character
> designs. Both American and Japanese toons have a tendancy for 'em,
> but somehow the Otaku can ignore it when it happens in anime, but
> it's an unforgiveable sin if done in America.
This is more of an attack of "What bugs me about any type of fan" really...
Otaku no Baka
>Blade wrote:
>
>> Nah, this actually has an element of truth to it. Of course, it's
>> written with the same contemptuous,
>> you-are-all-not-worthy-to-breathe-the-same-air-as-I tone that you write
>> everything else,
>
>Which, except for some posts where I'm countering your fellow Otaku who
>do the exact same thing, is a blatant lie.
Point: It's very hard to get across tone-of-voice in a written message.
Studies have shown that people will take greater insult from a written message
than a spoken one because of the lack of subtle modifiers. This is part of the
reason we have invented the smilie. :-) ^__^
Otaku no Ba...@aol.com.jp
When I have a little money, I buy some anime. If I have any left over, I buy
food and clothes.
Otaku no Baka
(Arthur Levesque) writes:
>like the difference between Trekkers and Trekkies, etc.
Actually that difference is different. Trekies called themselves Trekkies
until they caught on that the general public was using the term to make fun of
them, so they switched to the term Trekker. So if you call yourself a Trekkie,
they know you're not "in the fandom."
Now there are Trek fanboys, but those aren't the labels for them. They're
ususally called weird. *Remembers a Klingon camp where you had to say in
costume and speak the language during the two weeks of your stay."
Trekker no baka
Death Chase Ramen
news:a4d3fm$19sfih$4...@ID-75701.news.dfncis.de...
> 8-Bit Star (nes_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> 8BS>I'm not talking about anime fans as a whole. I never am. Usually I
> 8BS>*very specifically* point out one small fraction of the anime fandom
> 8BS>that bothers me, and take *paragraphs* just to make this clear...
> 8BS>I *clearly* stated that I was using the TRUE definition of Otaku...
>
> The distinction I use is between fans (who like something) and
> fanboys (who are obsessed and unable to think rationally about the
> target of their obsession; and take any and all criticism personally).
Why is it you people are able to see this NOW?
Death Chase Ramen
news:a4e2o...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> Ethan Hammond <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> : How long did this take you to type? What? What? What? What?
>
> Were you under some obligation to quote the whole damn post?
Even on a modem it shouldn't take more than a second to download.
Shadow6865
> been being produced in America for a *long* time (most predominantly
> since 1992).
>>
I don't have 8 bit star's original post so I have to respond to this from
someone else's response. I don't think American animation has become "more
mature" since 1992. There have been a select few pieces of mature american
animation like the Simpsons, The Critic, Batman: The Animated Series, and
Daria. However if you think that Beavis and Butthead, South Park, Family Guy,
Futurama, et al. are mature you are gravely mistaken.
It is "adult" animation but adult does not equal mature. What those shows are
simply crass, rude, vulgar, and pure shock value. None of these qualities alone
or together equal maturity. They are for a Howard Stern/Don Imus/Jerry Springer
dysfunctional audience. An audience that likes to have loud mouth and bold
opinions but can't bother to be informed about the issues they are talking
about. An audience who can't stand to read anything excpet superficial fluff
like People magazine, fashion magazines for any gender or sexuality, and the
sports pages. An audience that would never read Democracy in America or
possibly even the Declaration of Indepedence and the Constitution of the United
States.
Shadow
Unfortunatly a cultural snob
Fish Eye no Miko
news:20020213163351...@mb-fo.aol.com...
> I don't have 8 bit star's original post so I have to respond to this from
> someone else's response. I don't think American animation has become
> "more mature" since 1992. There have been a select few pieces of mature
> american animation like the Simpsons, The Critic, Batman: The Animated
> Series, and Daria. However if you think that Beavis and Butthead, South
> Park, Family Guy, Futurama, et al. are mature you are gravely mistaken.
> It is "adult" animation but adult does not equal mature. What those shows
> are simply crass, rude, vulgar, and pure shock value. None of these
qualities
> alone or together equal maturity. They are for a Howard Stern/Don
Imus/Jerry
> Springer dysfunctional audience.
You know, you lumping all these shows together is no better than others who
think all anime is "violent porn cartoons". There's a world of difference
between Daria and South Park (BOTH of which I like), and you stating that
it's "simply crass, rude, vulgar, and pure shock value" tells me that you
haven't watched it.
Catherine Johnson. Generalize much?
--
dis "able" to reply
"There are fifteen different kinds of animation in this movie--and they all
suck."
-Christina Holland, stomptokyo.com, on Ralph Bakshi's animated version
of _Lord of the Rings_.
sk...@goddos.net
Why is it you people assumed we didn't know it all along?
Oh, right, you never cared.
Death Chase Ramen
I think it had more to do with the general and obvious replies of
misunderstanding.
Death Chase Ramen
news:C6Ba8.3126$SJ3.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
> "Shadow6865" <shado...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020213163351...@mb-fo.aol.com...
>
> > I don't have 8 bit star's original post so I have to respond to this
from
> > someone else's response. I don't think American animation has become
> > "more mature" since 1992. There have been a select few pieces of mature
> > american animation like the Simpsons, The Critic, Batman: The Animated
> > Series, and Daria. However if you think that Beavis and Butthead, South
> > Park, Family Guy, Futurama, et al. are mature you are gravely mistaken.
> > It is "adult" animation but adult does not equal mature. What those
shows
> > are simply crass, rude, vulgar, and pure shock value. None of these
> qualities
> > alone or together equal maturity. They are for a Howard Stern/Don
> Imus/Jerry
> > Springer dysfunctional audience.
>
> You know, you lumping all these shows together is no better than others
who
> think all anime is "violent porn cartoons". There's a world of difference
> between Daria and South Park (BOTH of which I like), and you stating that
> it's "simply crass, rude, vulgar, and pure shock value" tells me that you
> haven't watched it.
Oops you crushed his argument.
Fata Morgana
"alan" <acf...@yahoo.do_not_spam_me.com> wrote in message
news:a4ddqf$ad5$1...@usenet.Stanford.EDU...
Or American cartoons and comics, as the case may be. ^_^
Fata Morgana
--
The Jazz Messengers - A broadcast guide to Cowboy Bebop:
http://www.jazzmess.com/
Disruptor
> 2. THEY ALL MAKE THE SAME, STUPID ASSUMPTIONS, DESPITE ALL
> EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY
> I myself have fallen under this same category several times. Somehow,
The tone of this post makes it seem like you are flaming people
> not liking Ghost in the Shell and Ninja Scroll means I must also hate
> Ranma,
> Voltron, Robotech, and Galaxy Express 999, despite my ever-growing
> Robotech DVD collection and my openly stating otherwise.
I hate Ninja Scroll and like Dangaio(what is usually hated), but I'm
never accused of hating anime in general.
> Another typical Anime Fan assumption is that if you don't
> like anime, you must have not seen much of it outside of the
> "Crap" on TV
Nah. Some people just don't like animation.
>(Almost all of which were big names in Otakudom
> 3-5 years ago, BTW). Again, I've fallen under this category, despite
> my having seen not *just* the "TV Crap" but also a good chunk of
> what was popular in the late 90s and many non-suggested ones that
> I picked up at random, and about ten or so that many Otaku had never
> even heard of before this year (Like Sherlock Hound, which was obscure
> until some company picked it up for DVD release, and Ninja the Wonder
> Boy, which to my knowledge is still an unknown title), yet, because I
> don't
> like *certain* titles, I'm "ignorant" to *all* anime. Does that make
> sense
> to any non-Otaku out there?
The tone of your post makes you seem like a dipwad, not your prefrences.
> 3. DELUDED ELATION OF CARTOONS
> Years ago, Otaku were raving about how Sailor Moon (which
> I just addressed), Dragon Ball Z (A bunch of endless fighting),
> Ghost in the Shell ("Not Really" Nude girl fights people), Akira
> (Blood, guts, no content), Macross Plus (A sh**ty love story)
> and Tenchi (which varies depending on which version you watch)
> had such excellent plotlines, how "deep" they were, how complex
> the characters!
Compared to Tom & Jerry and the old Scooby-Doo shows, they are.
> They still do that, except now the list has been updated
> to include more recent anime, because the older stuff is being
> played on TV, so we're all having a chance to see that, good
> as it may be, it obviously isn't a collection of masterpieces
> like Otaku would like to believe.
You are also seeing a seperation of the fandom.
> I can think of exactly *one* person (besides myself) who
> likes an anime--Cowboy Bebop--For being what it *is*, rather
> than having to delude himself into believing it's some sort
> of Sci-Fi masterpiece. Said guy is, sadly, a troll (which
> unfortunately gives the simple-minded Otaku an excuse to
> blow off any good points he makes).
> I myself like Robotech. I like it *not* because it
> has some sort of deep, meaningful plot (Which it doesn't),
> but rather because it has action, suspense, great music, the
> corn factor of the ever-present narrator, and because I have
> a thing for shows of a serial nature (Except for when it's
> convenient for one of my little raves that I don't).
allowing you to have a double standard whenever you want to be a jerk.
> It's really, really sad that Otaku feel they have to
> justify their preferences. Not only because it blocks them
> from enjoying all but a meager 10% of what's available, but
> because their delusions end up turning them into unreasonable
> hypocrites.
hahaha. I don't need to justify my prefrences
> 4. THE GENERAL TREND OF SAMEYNESS IN THE FANDOM
> This one's easy to prove: Try asking them to recommend
> anime to you (or wait for a newbie to ask for recommendations).
> They'll all recommend the same thing.
Mostly because its popular and the more recent fans haven't seen some of
the more obscure titles out there
> These anime they list
> are pretty much all they talk about in other threads, which
> makes it even *worse*. After a normal day on rec.arts.anime.misc,
> the *only* reason I don't want to watch Utena, Tenchi, Cowboy
> Bebop, Outlaw Star, Ghost in the Shell, or various Gundams is
> simply because I got bored hearing so damn much about them.
Don't read the thread. I haven't seen Cowboy Bebop or Outlaw Star
> Now, let's suppose you actually *do* like anime, but the
> anime you happen to like just doesn't happen to be one of the
> "Big names." Try saying, say, that you like Speed Racer or
> Robotech. Either you'll be flamed for having different tastes
> in anime, or they'll become condescending and try to baby-step
> you into watching "Real" anime.
No one has bothered me into watching real anime. But, I've always been
the oddball among oddballs. I like Odin and I do break out my
Tekkaman:The Space Knight shows to watch
> Besides that, I can't think of how many times many of the
> same subjects have kept coming up. When that happens, you can
> usually expect the repeat to be a big, long post. I've seen
> precisely *four* Goku vs. Superman threads.
Ah yes. That
> One on
> Yesterdayland.com, another on the PlanetNamek forum, and *two*
> on rec.arts.anime.misc. On RAAM, the post was f***ing long
> (as if that was even a remotely interesting subject--Goku would
> obviously win). And this isn't the only one.
careful there. You almost restarted the thread in this post.
> It's no wonder I often have to take week-long breaks from
> that newsgroup (or any place that predominantly features Otaku).
> Threads in general tend to be samey, with the exact same arguements
> being made again and again, always ending at a stalemate and
> starting over again next week. And unless it involves DBZ (or
> the Cable brothers) no one ever disagrees (because the Otaku
> would go haywire if you did). So basically you'll see big long
> threads where basically someone says something someone agrees
> with and everyone else chimes in to talk about how right he is.
> Occasionally a "Troll" comes in, but we can't have someone actually
> making the thread *interesting* so everyone has to killfile him
> and go back to talking about how right everyone else is.
But the trolls usually xpost to other unrelated newsgroups and that's a
no-no
> 5. BLATANT DOUBLE-STANDARDS WITH REGARDS TO AMERICAN
> CARTOONS
> [This one was originally up-front, but I decided to put it here
> because otherwise the Otaku would've ignored the rest of the article
> and responded to this alone].
> I one time saw an Otaku claim American toons were all
> comedies. This is, obviously, wrong, so I merely pointed
LAUGH
> out as much (No flames or anything) and what happened? He
> snapped at me!
But if your writing was as snippy as this post, he'd have readon to snap
at you.
> Chances are, if I had went in, saying "Anime is nothing
> but comedies" he would, too, have tried to correct me, like
> I tried to correct him. Remember, in Otakudom, they already
> go hay crazy if you try to point out flaws in any given anime.
On the Sailor Moon newsgroup, I have stated I disliked Chibi-usa for
where she came from(future), not her character. I have not been flamed
for that by the rabid Chibi-usa fans, because I had a sensible argument
and was being polite about it.
> So, it's alright to make obviously wrong generalizations
> about American Cartoons, but anyone who comments on Anime has
> to have an Anime Encyclopedia handy before their comments are
> valid.
To me, Akira is gross
> This isn't even the worst of the Double-Standards. Anime
> Fans make up about half of another crowd I hate--those who bash
> classic 80s Cartoons, for reasons like "They're nothing but
> toy commercials", "They're all cheaply produced" and "The animation
> really sucked." (Remember, they're criticizing a whole ten-year
> output for all this). What's sad is that alot of these "Flaws"
> are true for a lot of anime, as well, a few examples:
90% of anything is crap. For a long time, the fans have only been
seeing a very small section of anime
Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors & Jem and the Holograms have never been
criticized on this group. Nor has The Galaxy Rangers. Galaxy Rangers
actually has a place in the rec.arts.anime.creative archive.
Other shows that have earned a respectable place are Mighty Orbots and
Dungeons & Dragons
> Watch Thundercats. Notice something about the animation?
> It is 100% an exact mimic of anime style!
No. It isn't. Eyes are in proportion to their body and there is lip
sycronization between the audio track and the characters
> Yet somehow Thundercats
> has sucky, cheap animation, but the average anime (which, again,
> has no stylistic difference) doesn't.
>
> One anime that Otaku really like (unless it's convenient
> for their arguement that they consider it "TV Trash") is Sailor
> Moon, an anime that is riddled with stock footage, corny dialogue,
> and formula plotlines. This leads to one of my favorite match
> ups: Sailor Moon vs. She-Ra (It was Sailor Moon vs. He-Man, but
> I like She-Ra better).
> She-Ra is very similar to Sailor Moon in many respects. They
> both have the same plot--A girl finds out she's a princess and a
> superhero and uses her powers to fight evil--both have corny
But Adora was under Hortak's control when her twin borther Adam showed
up and she found out the truth. Usagi was thrust into the role by a
talking cat.
> dialogue, and lots of stock footage. There is *absolutely nothing*
> that makes one better than the other.
Other than the fact that Sailor Moon has an ending.
> Here's where the Double-standard comes in: Sailor Moon is
> considered an artistic, well-written epic, whereas She-Ra is
> considered a cheap piece of crap meant to sell a toy. This is
No, a cheap piece of crap meant to sell a toy was Ring Raiders.
> despite that Sailor Moon was also toy-based, and She-Ra's makers
No. Sailor Moon is manga based
> obviously put more effort into production than Sailor Moon's did
> (They even rotoscoped it using live actors, and at *least* had
> the decency to change the backgrounds for given situations--Sailor
> Moon didn't even do *that*!).
> And this leads me to the last Double-Standard: Samey character
> designs. Both American and Japanese toons have a tendancy for 'em,
> but somehow the Otaku can ignore it when it happens in anime, but
> it's an unforgiveable sin if done in America.
That's a stylistic differece. US shows are usally done with a mind to
have the characters look as induvidual as possible.
> Actually, there's one last double-standard: Otaku are always
> bitching about how American toons should be more mature--but
Not quite. Endings of shows, a realxation of the Network Censors
guidelines(A fistfight between two people where 50 punches were thrown
doesn't count as one violent act, but 50 or each shot from a
machine-gun on full auto counts as a violent action that sort of thing)
> they conveniently ignore the fact that mature American toons have
> been being produced in America for a *long* time (most predominantly
> since 1992).
The ones that do qualify are on at some riducuolus time. Here's the
scedule that my Fox station once had
5:00am Galaxy Rangers
5:30am Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors
6:00am Pre-School Playhouse
6:30am Glo-Worms
Trying to find the good US animation is hard, because of the censors
--
Tom Mathews a.k.a. Disruptor
http://home1.gte.net/mathews1/
Michael Lo
Nah, I'm sure he's a pretty decent, law-abiding fellow and I have no
gripe with him. But since he issued a challenge, I better respond.
Yup, I do agree in part with what you say. I too remember the days
when you'd get really nasty bloke here, shrieking out at the top of
his lungs that ahem "The best US animation is no better than lower
medium grade anime." That used to be a pretty common statement on
this newsgroup. I wrote off this newsgroup back then and stuck only
with rec.arts.animation. But over there I saw a few names from here
and decided to check it out again. What do you know to my surprise
the more fanatical elements seem to have disappeared from here.
So I on occassion check this place out.
It's nice that you do try to elaborate your position but I read your
entire piece and I have to point out that you could have positioned
some of your statements differently for better effect. For example
your title "What Bugs Me About Anime Fans" Wouldn't it be more
accurate to write "What Bugs Me About SOME TYPES of Anime Fans"
Otherwise you'd be lumping a vast percentage of people from East Asia
such as Hong Kong, Brunei and etc. :)
As for encountering people throwing up unfounded accusations, let's
face it there's lot of pinheads kicking out anywhere. You've called
them out on it, good on you. I also agree that there's plenty of crap
Japanese cartoons out there.
If people feel something has some kind of ahem, "deep" meaning for
them let them feel whatever they want to. If they come up with good
reasons, then hey that's great they were able to come to those
conclusions.
As for your feeling that there's too much "sameness" on this
newsgroup, here's what I say to that. IT MEANS NOTHING. There's a
fallacy, that the person who ahem "stands outside of the group" is
inherently better and almost certainly right. That's uterine,
piss-ridden 2 week old bullshit :) Skeptics ripped apart this
arguement, when they encountered it being used to excuse the beliefs
of certain cults that are way far from mainstream. I mean gee, I
can't be impressed by a group's sense of morals if they eye gouge
people during excorsisms. From what I gather here, the people on this
newsgroup seem to come by their likes honestly and if there's
consensus between likes, then it could be that people here enjoyed
similar aspects. I severely doubt that there's a hivemind society at
work here.
Also in what you wrote, you've implied that you're the only one who
enjoyed Cowboy Bebop for what it is except for whoever it was you
didn't mention. Is that so true? I like CB 'cuz it's fun, there's a
nice jazzy mood to the show, it's eventful and it's got real feeling.
It's obvious you're not ignorant of what's out there and I never
accused you of that. However I have some points to pick with you.
You made the comparison between Sailor Moon and She-Ra. Frankly I
don't care much for Sailor Moon but I wish to ask you how much do you
know about She-Ra? You mention it was roto-scoped. But as the
animators on rec.arts.animation mention, what this does is create
stiff, lifeless movement for your characters. And here's the kicker
for She-Ra, the animators hated working for that and He-Man. The show
was utter crap to work for as the animators mainly just re-used old
stock motion footage, followed decisions that were motivated by toy
sales such as having to put in new characters based on what Mattel is
coming out with. Morale was murder over there.
As for Thundercats, yup it's got worse animation than in the vast
majority of shows from Japan. As for what makes good animation? Well
one hint, it doesn't always involve the number of cels flipped :)
As for American vs. Japanese animation, well preferably there
shouldn't be this argument floating about. Yes you're right that the
US has created animated TV features for mature audiences. Take a look
at the Maxx, great work easily one of the best animated works period.
And definitely America was the big pioneer of animation and the early
US animation was excellent stuff. However animation is taking a
brutal beating in the US. Networks are gutting it and let's face it
animation was never a big thing for the networks. I saw US and
Japanese shows side by side in Hong Kong and I'm sorry to say that the
US didn't fare very good. Yup there's still great shows on the US
like Powerpuff Girls, Oggy & the Cockroaches and Dexter's Lab but they
were severely outnumbered by the sheer number of great shows from
Japan. Let's face it, it didn't exactly help the North American cause
to export Ripley's Believe it or Not the animated series.
Hmm, one question I have to ask you okay? Were you the one you wrote
down that you were losing respect for Japanese people because they had
ahem weak wills on the Final Fantasy newsgroup?
If so, I'm not going to castigate you but I can readily refute your
argument.
Anyways, you take care and overall you got a fairly sound piece of
writing.
8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3C69D108...@hotmail.com>...
> 1. THEY ALWAYS OVERGENERALIZE/BASTARDIZE ARGUEMENTS
> I'm not talking about anime fans as a whole. I never am.
> Usually I *very specifically* point out one small fraction
> of the anime fandom that bothers me, and take *paragraphs*
> just to make this clear.
> But does it ever help? No. Apparently, Anime fans
> can't seem to grasp the concept of someone who hates
> *specific* groups of anime fans but not anime fans as
> a whole.
> Some time ago, on a messageboard, I got into a discussion
> where I mentioned "Otaku" in a negative light. I *clearly*
> stated that I was using the TRUE definition of Otaku, which
> is someone with an unhealthy obsession with something. I
> took a 15-line paragraph making *sure* there was no way any
> present anime fans could get any other idea than the one I
> was trying to convey, but WHAT HAPPENS? They accuse me of
> bashing anime fans in general, AGAIN, despite that that was
> clearly what I was *not* doing! I used a whole response to
> try to correct the misconception, but it never seemed to
> register, and instead the anime fan I managed to accidentally
> tick off attacked me to the point where the discussion was
> about to erupt in flames, all because the fan in question
> couldn't understand that she made a mistake!
> Really, it's pointless to even try to narrow out *specific*
> anime fans, because as far as they're concerned, there are
> no fractions, just one big whole.
> To paraphrase Psycho Dave's excellent "Why I Hate Anime Geeks"
> Article: "I get messages from these people all the time, who
> bitch about how I overgeneralize. They, of course, aren't really
> reading my articles -- they are seeing some aspects of themselves
> portrayed, and jump to the conclusion that i am attacking them."
>
>
>
> Let's face it: They never, *ever* give a straight, direct
> response to any arguements brought up, and instead end up confusing
> the arguement until it's nothing but a senseless mass of babbling.
> To drive the point home: Let's see how many Otaku here actually
> read this *whole thing* and then make a direct, intelligent response
> to it. Chances are, only about two or three will pass, and the
> rest will simply try to flame me.
>
>
> 2. THEY ALL MAKE THE SAME, STUPID ASSUMPTIONS, DESPITE ALL
> EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY
> On a related note: In the minds of Otaku (I'm using the
> Bastardized Anime Fan definition this time) not liking Anime
> fans is somehow the same as not liking Anime. Also, not liking
> Anime or even one Anime in particular is somehow an attack on
> Anime Fandom, even if you don't say *anything* derogatory about
> the Fans. Even if you say something as simple as "I don't like
> Sailor Moon" they take that out of proportion and end up somehow
> thinking you hate *all* anime!
> I myself have fallen under this same category several times. Somehow,
>
> not liking Ghost in the Shell and Ninja Scroll means I must also hate
> Ranma,
> Voltron, Robotech, and Galaxy Express 999, despite my ever-growing
> Robotech DVD collection and my openly stating otherwise.
> Another typical Anime Fan assumption is that if you don't
> like anime, you must have not seen much of it outside of the
> "Crap" on TV (Almost all of which were big names in Otakudom
> 3-5 years ago, BTW). Again, I've fallen under this category, despite
> my having seen not *just* the "TV Crap" but also a good chunk of
> what was popular in the late 90s and many non-suggested ones that
> I picked up at random, and about ten or so that many Otaku had never
> even heard of before this year (Like Sherlock Hound, which was obscure
> until some company picked it up for DVD release, and Ninja the Wonder
> Boy, which to my knowledge is still an unknown title), yet, because I
> don't
> like *certain* titles, I'm "ignorant" to *all* anime. Does that make
> sense
> to any non-Otaku out there?
>
> 3. DELUDED ELATION OF CARTOONS
> Years ago, Otaku were raving about how Sailor Moon (which
> I just addressed), Dragon Ball Z (A bunch of endless fighting),
> Ghost in the Shell ("Not Really" Nude girl fights people), Akira
> (Blood, guts, no content), Macross Plus (A sh**ty love story)
> and Tenchi (which varies depending on which version you watch)
> had such excellent plotlines, how "deep" they were, how complex
> the characters!
> They still do that, except now the list has been updated
> to include more recent anime, because the older stuff is being
> played on TV, so we're all having a chance to see that, good
> as it may be, it obviously isn't a collection of masterpieces
> like Otaku would like to believe.
> I can think of exactly *one* person (besides myself) who
> likes an anime--Cowboy Bebop--For being what it *is*, rather
> than having to delude himself into believing it's some sort
> of Sci-Fi masterpiece. Said guy is, sadly, a troll (which
> unfortunately gives the simple-minded Otaku an excuse to
> blow off any good points he makes).
> I myself like Robotech. I like it *not* because it
> has some sort of deep, meaningful plot (Which it doesn't),
> but rather because it has action, suspense, great music, the
> corn factor of the ever-present narrator, and because I have
> a thing for shows of a serial nature (Except for when it's
> convenient for one of my little raves that I don't).
> It's really, really sad that Otaku feel they have to
> justify their preferences. Not only because it blocks them
> from enjoying all but a meager 10% of what's available, but
> because their delusions end up turning them into unreasonable
> hypocrites.
>
> 4. THE GENERAL TREND OF SAMEYNESS IN THE FANDOM
> This one's easy to prove: Try asking them to recommend
> anime to you (or wait for a newbie to ask for recommendations).
> They'll all recommend the same thing. These anime they list
> are pretty much all they talk about in other threads, which
> makes it even *worse*. After a normal day on rec.arts.anime.misc,
> the *only* reason I don't want to watch Utena, Tenchi, Cowboy
> Bebop, Outlaw Star, Ghost in the Shell, or various Gundams is
> simply because I got bored hearing so damn much about them.
> Now, let's suppose you actually *do* like anime, but the
> anime you happen to like just doesn't happen to be one of the
> "Big names." Try saying, say, that you like Speed Racer or
> Robotech. Either you'll be flamed for having different tastes
> in anime, or they'll become condescending and try to baby-step
> you into watching "Real" anime.
> Besides that, I can't think of how many times many of the
> same subjects have kept coming up. When that happens, you can
> usually expect the repeat to be a big, long post. I've seen
> precisely *four* Goku vs. Superman threads. One on
> Yesterdayland.com, another on the PlanetNamek forum, and *two*
> on rec.arts.anime.misc. On RAAM, the post was f***ing long
> (as if that was even a remotely interesting subject--Goku would
> obviously win). And this isn't the only one.
> It's no wonder I often have to take week-long breaks from
> that newsgroup (or any place that predominantly features Otaku).
> Threads in general tend to be samey, with the exact same arguements
> being made again and again, always ending at a stalemate and
> starting over again next week. And unless it involves DBZ (or
> the Cable brothers) no one ever disagrees (because the Otaku
> would go haywire if you did). So basically you'll see big long
> threads where basically someone says something someone agrees
> with and everyone else chimes in to talk about how right he is.
> Occasionally a "Troll" comes in, but we can't have someone actually
> making the thread *interesting* so everyone has to killfile him
> and go back to talking about how right everyone else is.
>
> 5. BLATANT DOUBLE-STANDARDS WITH REGARDS TO AMERICAN
> CARTOONS
> [This one was originally up-front, but I decided to put it here
> because otherwise the Otaku would've ignored the rest of the article
> and responded to this alone].
> I one time saw an Otaku claim American toons were all
> comedies. This is, obviously, wrong, so I merely pointed
> out as much (No flames or anything) and what happened? He
> snapped at me!
> Chances are, if I had went in, saying "Anime is nothing
> but comedies" he would, too, have tried to correct me, like
> I tried to correct him. Remember, in Otakudom, they already
> go hay crazy if you try to point out flaws in any given anime.
> So, it's alright to make obviously wrong generalizations
> about American Cartoons, but anyone who comments on Anime has
> to have an Anime Encyclopedia handy before their comments are
> valid.
> This isn't even the worst of the Double-Standards. Anime
> Fans make up about half of another crowd I hate--those who bash
> classic 80s Cartoons, for reasons like "They're nothing but
> toy commercials", "They're all cheaply produced" and "The animation
> really sucked." (Remember, they're criticizing a whole ten-year
> output for all this). What's sad is that alot of these "Flaws"
> are true for a lot of anime, as well, a few examples:
>
> Watch Thundercats. Notice something about the animation?
> It is 100% an exact mimic of anime style! Yet somehow Thundercats
> has sucky, cheap animation, but the average anime (which, again,
> has no stylistic difference) doesn't.
>
> One anime that Otaku really like (unless it's convenient
> for their arguement that they consider it "TV Trash") is Sailor
> Moon, an anime that is riddled with stock footage, corny dialogue,
> and formula plotlines. This leads to one of my favorite match
> ups: Sailor Moon vs. She-Ra (It was Sailor Moon vs. He-Man, but
> I like She-Ra better).
> She-Ra is very similar to Sailor Moon in many respects. They
> both have the same plot--A girl finds out she's a princess and a
> superhero and uses her powers to fight evil--both have corny
> dialogue, and lots of stock footage. There is *absolutely nothing*
> that makes one better than the other.
> Here's where the Double-standard comes in: Sailor Moon is
> considered an artistic, well-written epic, whereas She-Ra is
> considered a cheap piece of crap meant to sell a toy. This is
> despite that Sailor Moon was also toy-based, and She-Ra's makers
> obviously put more effort into production than Sailor Moon's did
> (They even rotoscoped it using live actors, and at *least* had
> the decency to change the backgrounds for given situations--Sailor
> Moon didn't even do *that*!).
> And this leads me to the last Double-Standard: Samey character
> designs. Both American and Japanese toons have a tendancy for 'em,
> but somehow the Otaku can ignore it when it happens in anime, but
> it's an unforgiveable sin if done in America.
>
> Actually, there's one last double-standard: Otaku are always
> bitching about how American toons should be more mature--but
Rob
> EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY
> On a related note: In the minds of Otaku (I'm using the
> Bastardized Anime Fan definition this time) not liking Anime
> fans is somehow the same as not liking Anime.
If you are a fan of anime, in other words liking it, then how can you
not like an anime fans? You are disliking a group you admit to belonging
to.
Also, not liking
> Anime or even one Anime in particular is somehow an attack on
> Anime Fandom, even if you don't say *anything* derogatory about
> the Fans. Even if you say something as simple as "I don't like
> Sailor Moon" they take that out of proportion and end up somehow
> thinking you hate *all* anime!
Where do you come up with this? A lot of people in here dislike
certain animes, and don't have any problems. A lot of people in here
dislike popular animes, and don't have any problems. And with the large
amount of review sites I've seen, they generally tend to be spread out in
there reviews. Some get really bad reviews, some get really great reviews,
and some end up in the middle. Not to mention that the people involved in
running the largest sites are more often than not the biggest fans, since
it takes a lot of work to put that together. And someone with just a
casual interest in anime isn't going to donate hours of their time to put
up a large website.
> I myself have fallen under this same category several times. Somehow,
>
> not liking Ghost in the Shell and Ninja Scroll means I must also hate
> Ranma,
> Voltron, Robotech, and Galaxy Express 999, despite my ever-growing
> Robotech DVD collection and my openly stating otherwise.
Well I didn't think too much of Ghost in the Shell. I don't think
anyone here will say that there's anything wrong with it. In fact my
earlier thread about Slayers Try not living up got opinions on both sides,
and there's no fighting going on over there. Possibly your over-sensitive,
or more likely you're leaving important information out.
> Another typical Anime Fan assumption is that if you don't
> like anime, you must have not seen much of it outside of the
> "Crap" on TV (Almost all of which were big names in Otakudom
> 3-5 years ago, BTW). Again, I've fallen under this category, despite
> my having seen not *just* the "TV Crap" but also a good chunk of
> what was popular in the late 90s and many non-suggested ones that
> I picked up at random, and about ten or so that many Otaku had never
> even heard of before this year (Like Sherlock Hound, which was obscure
> until some company picked it up for DVD release, and Ninja the Wonder
> Boy, which to my knowledge is still an unknown title), yet, because I
> don't
> like *certain* titles, I'm "ignorant" to *all* anime. Does that make
> sense
> to any non-Otaku out there?
It seems more like you have a warped sense of reality. Who is saying
you haven't seen anime except what's on TV? I find most people who don't
care for anime haven't seen much anime. That is to be expected though. Why
would someone who didn't care much for anime watch a lot of it just to be
sure.
> 3. DELUDED ELATION OF CARTOONS
> Years ago, Otaku were raving about how Sailor Moon (which
> I just addressed), Dragon Ball Z (A bunch of endless fighting),
> Ghost in the Shell ("Not Really" Nude girl fights people), Akira
> (Blood, guts, no content), Macross Plus (A sh**ty love story)
> and Tenchi (which varies depending on which version you watch)
> had such excellent plotlines, how "deep" they were, how complex
> the characters!
When exactly was this? I've never seen a strong movement with in the
anime fan community supporting Dragon Ball Z. In fact the fan movement is
more opposed to it than excepting it, and the large fan base involved with
the show is usually unrealated to anime in general. Likewise, I've never
seen a huge movement for Sailor Moon. I understand a lot of people like
it, but the majority of Sailor Moon fans that I've met were unaware that
the show wasn't American made.
> They still do that, except now the list has been updated
> to include more recent anime, because the older stuff is being
> played on TV, so we're all having a chance to see that, good
> as it may be, it obviously isn't a collection of masterpieces
> like Otaku would like to believe.
Cowboy Bebop isn't still on the top of everyone's list? The non-Gundam
Wing gundam shows that have been shown on cartoon network on still
considered good? With the exception of bad editing, I don't think anyone
has ever put down a show based only on the fact that it has appeared on
television.
> I can think of exactly *one* person (besides myself) who
> likes an anime--Cowboy Bebop--For being what it *is*, rather
> than having to delude himself into believing it's some sort
> of Sci-Fi masterpiece. Said guy is, sadly, a troll (which
> unfortunately gives the simple-minded Otaku an excuse to
> blow off any good points he makes).
It is a masterpiece. When you grow up some, I can tell how young you
are, and have a bit more life behind you, take some of the classes in
higher literature and film that will be made available to you. Then go
back and watch it again. There is a lot of symbolism, themes, ect. in
Cowboy Bebop, and I can find proofs for enough of it to prove that it was
not done unintentionally. If you aren't yet at the level where you can
understand the meanings behind higher works of fiction, and you aren't yet
mature enough to understand character development and relationships,
there's not much I can do to disuade your opinion.
> It's really, really sad that Otaku feel they have to
> justify their preferences. Not only because it blocks them
> from enjoying all but a meager 10% of what's available, but
> because their delusions end up turning them into unreasonable
> hypocrites.
It's not a justification. I like Ninja Scroll for no other reason but
because it's damn cool to see a guy get his arms ripped off from time to
time. Just like anything else though, there are works that will be of a
higher order than other works. Some things are made just because it's a
sure seller, and some are made with a much more artistic motive. Cowboy
Bebop is a work of higher fiction. It has the basic elements of higher
fiction in it. More than that it has some of the best character
development I've ever seen inside of television, and it's exposition is
dead on. More than that though it is able to draw appeal without those
things. It can be a good show about nothing more than shoot-outs and cheap
humor. If that's as far as you're capable of going into a work, it's your
loss and something you should rectify. On the same note shakespeare can be
taken as nothing more than a few cool sword fights, some great lines, and
some cheap humor. You'd be a fool to try to argue that among intellegent
people though.
> 4. THE GENERAL TREND OF SAMEYNESS IN THE FANDOM
> This one's easy to prove: Try asking them to recommend
> anime to you (or wait for a newbie to ask for recommendations).
> They'll all recommend the same thing. These anime they list
> are pretty much all they talk about in other threads, which
> makes it even *worse*. After a normal day on rec.arts.anime.misc,
> the *only* reason I don't want to watch Utena, Tenchi, Cowboy
> Bebop, Outlaw Star, Ghost in the Shell, or various Gundams is
> simply because I got bored hearing so damn much about them.
Um, did you ever think that popular anime means something? If someone
asks for a recomendation, is it all that likely that we'll all turn to the
unpopular anime that no one likes? If an anime is good, wouldn't the
majority of the people who have seen it like it and recomend it? I don't
see anyone bashing movie critics for giving great reviews to all the same
movies almost across the board every time.
> Now, let's suppose you actually *do* like anime, but the
> anime you happen to like just doesn't happen to be one of the
> "Big names." Try saying, say, that you like Speed Racer or
> Robotech. Either you'll be flamed for having different tastes
> in anime, or they'll become condescending and try to baby-step
> you into watching "Real" anime.
When has this happened? I don't see this. Of course if you like an
anime, and you post it, and someone dislikes it, well they have every
right to disagree with you and be vocal about that point. If you're of the
over-sensitive variety, and don't like disagreement, then I suggest you
stay off of Usenet entirely. There are very few places where you can find
a group in agreement, and less where they'll agree entirely with your
point of view.
> Besides that, I can't think of how many times many of the
> same subjects have kept coming up. When that happens, you can
> usually expect the repeat to be a big, long post. I've seen
> precisely *four* Goku vs. Superman threads. One on
> Yesterdayland.com, another on the PlanetNamek forum, and *two*
> on rec.arts.anime.misc. On RAAM, the post was f***ing long
> (as if that was even a remotely interesting subject--Goku would
> obviously win). And this isn't the only one.
Well then just don't read it stupid. I completely missed the Goku and
Superman thread. I don't like Goku, and with the exception of Gene Hackman
as Lex Luther I don't like Superman. So I don't read the damn threads
concerning Goku and Superman. If you don't like what's said on these
boards and in this group, then I have to ask why the hell you keep reading
them? I know I have little free time, and so I don't spend it reading
Usenet groups and message boards that I don't like the topics of. If on
the other hand you want a board that will talk in the manner you want,
well then go put it up and see if anyone will come there. If they do, good
for you. As it is the topics in this group are what the people currently
in this group want to talk about. In other words, you can't change that.
> It's no wonder I often have to take week-long breaks from
> that newsgroup (or any place that predominantly features Otaku).
> Threads in general tend to be samey, with the exact same arguements
> being made again and again, always ending at a stalemate and
> starting over again next week. And unless it involves DBZ (or
> the Cable brothers) no one ever disagrees (because the Otaku
> would go haywire if you did).
Once again you're saying something you don't have proof of. I see
disagreement in here all the time. Lots of it. People are constantly
disagreeing on what is or isn't good, or what something did or didn't
mean. And unlike your above statements, I don't see flame wars starting
over this.
> 5. BLATANT DOUBLE-STANDARDS WITH REGARDS TO AMERICAN
> CARTOONS
> [This one was originally up-front, but I decided to put it here
> because otherwise the Otaku would've ignored the rest of the article
> and responded to this alone].
> I one time saw an Otaku claim American toons were all
> comedies. This is, obviously, wrong, so I merely pointed
> out as much (No flames or anything) and what happened? He
> snapped at me!
Most of the good ones are comedies.
> So, it's alright to make obviously wrong generalizations
> about American Cartoons, but anyone who comments on Anime has
> to have an Anime Encyclopedia handy before their comments are
> valid.
Once again you seem to get this out of left field. Would you like to
cite your sources for all of this? If it was on this group, it's archived
at Google, and there is a URL that will lead to it. If you make outragous
aligations and don't back them up, then why should anyone take you
seriously. You haven't even given a name, a place, or a subject for any of
this. You've just said some guy once snapped at you. Even if it is true,
this could be some drunk homeless guy you see when you walk home from
school.
> This isn't even the worst of the Double-Standards. Anime
> Fans make up about half of another crowd I hate--those who bash
> classic 80s Cartoons, for reasons like "They're nothing but
> toy commercials",
A lot aren't. There are some exceptions though, and there are some
cartoons that had pretty much free reign to do whatever they wanted as
long as the toys were somehow show cased.
"They're all cheaply produced" and "The animation
> really sucked."
That's seventies cartoons. Get your facts straight on these things.
(Remember, they're criticizing a whole ten-year
> output for all this). What's sad is that alot of these "Flaws"
> are true for a lot of anime, as well, a few examples:
Yes there is a lot of bad anime out there. I don't think anyone denies
that. I'm sure most people could come up with at least one or two titles a
person shouldn't watch no matter how bored they are.
> Watch Thundercats. Notice something about the animation?
> It is 100% an exact mimic of anime style! Yet somehow Thundercats
> has sucky, cheap animation, but the average anime (which, again,
> has no stylistic difference) doesn't.
Thundercats has bad monotone voice acting, and some really bad
dialogue on top of that.
> One anime that Otaku really like (unless it's convenient
> for their arguement that they consider it "TV Trash") is Sailor
> Moon, an anime that is riddled with stock footage, corny dialogue,
> and formula plotlines. This leads to one of my favorite match
> ups: Sailor Moon vs. She-Ra (It was Sailor Moon vs. He-Man, but
> I like She-Ra better).
He-man's better. She-Ra was just a spin-off. I don't watch Sailor
Moon, but I will say that this whole movement towards Sailor Moon you've
continually mentioned is something I've yet to see.
> She-Ra is very similar to Sailor Moon in many respects. They
> both have the same plot--A girl finds out she's a princess and a
> superhero and uses her powers to fight evil--both have corny
> dialogue, and lots of stock footage. There is *absolutely nothing*
> that makes one better than the other.
Have you actually seen She-Ra? It's nothing like Sailor Moon, and
niether is He-Man for that matter. This is about as same as comparing Star
Wars to Alien.
> Here's where the Double-standard comes in: Sailor Moon is
> considered an artistic, well-written epic, whereas She-Ra is
> considered a cheap piece of crap meant to sell a toy. This is
> despite that Sailor Moon was also toy-based, and She-Ra's makers
> obviously put more effort into production than Sailor Moon's did
> (They even rotoscoped it using live actors, and at *least* had
> the decency to change the backgrounds for given situations--Sailor
> Moon didn't even do *that*!).
Where is this damn Sailor Moon movement? I'm aware of some fan
websites out there, but not this movement you talk of. There are a handful
of He-Man/She-Ra websites out there, but since very little of it was
commercially released on VHS, none on LD or DVD, and the show hasn't aired
in something like fifteen years now, not many people are too current on
the series, and very few fans are left to make websites for them.
> And this leads me to the last Double-Standard: Samey character
> designs. Both American and Japanese toons have a tendancy for 'em,
> but somehow the Otaku can ignore it when it happens in anime, but
> it's an unforgiveable sin if done in America.
Um, what are you talking about. I have no idea what Samey character
design means. Do you mean like 45% of all American Animation uses talking
animals or something.
> Actually, there's one last double-standard: Otaku are always
> bitching about how American toons should be more mature--but
> they conveniently ignore the fact that mature American toons have
> been being produced in America for a *long* time (most predominantly
> since 1992).
There hasn't been much released in adult targeted cartoons since they
made their way to television. Since the late eighties there has been a
movement for child and adult targeted cartoons, in other words taking
advantage of both markets, but very little in terms of adult only, and
less good ones. With the exception of Matt Groenings works and Duckman, I
don't think there's been a good adult targeted cartoon on television.
Outside of television there's only a few movies, like Heavy Metal.
Dyson
David Johnston wrote:
> Since anyone who likes anime is an anime fan, someone who dislikes
> anime fans while liking anime, dislikes theirself.
Actually, this is inaccurate. You *can* like something without
being a fan. It's a question of intensity. A fan, by definition,
is a fanatic.
While I like anime, in fact I like it a lot, I'm by no means a
'fan'. There's a certain mindset with fandom that I just don't
understand, and doubt I ever will. It's an intesity of interest
maybe truly a 'love', that I just can't get worked up enough to
have. I don't sing along with theme songs; I don't pepper my
speech with little Japanese phrases that I can't use with proper
grammar (ex. "You're a baka."); I can't understand why certain
people lust after anime characters; I certainly don't understand
the intesity of dedication to certain shows to the point where a
criticism of the show is taken as a personal insult.
These are the trappings of a fan, and well, as I've mentioned
none of them apply to me. Anime is just a visual medium that
happens to tell stories that I like to watch, and does so in
a style that appeals to me. Period, that's it.
So, to wind up this all, it's very possible for someone to
like anime and not be a fan, as the fervor just doesn't
exist in me that exists in fans.
Doug Jacobs
> 1. THEY ALWAYS OVERGENERALIZE/BASTARDIZE ARGUEMENTS
[200 line diatribe snipped]
Pot, kettle, black, anyone?
8-Bit Star
Michael Lo wrote:
> Should I write what bugs me about 8-bit Star? :)
Oh I dunno. I might find it entertaining :).
<snip a lot of good points I couldn't argue with>
>
>
> You made the comparison between Sailor Moon and She-Ra. Frankly I
> don't care much for Sailor Moon but I wish to ask you how much do you
> know about She-Ra? You mention it was roto-scoped.
The stock footage was, but not the entire show.
> But as the
> animators on rec.arts.animation mention, what this does is create
> stiff, lifeless movement for your characters.
... I need to see that. All I've seen it do is make them move around
realistically.
> And here's the kicker
> for She-Ra, the animators hated working for that and He-Man. The show
> was utter crap to work for as the animators mainly just re-used old
> stock motion footage,
I noticed. One thing I love about old Filmation 'toons is how much me
and my friends could joke about them (Including several stock footage
jokes)...that and when the shows would break self-imposed bounds and
do something interesting (Like Orko realizing that he sucks and deciding
to run off--Something the Wonder Twins *should* have done).
> followed decisions that were motivated by toy
> sales such as having to put in new characters based on what Mattel is
> coming out with. Morale was murder over there.
For the animators perhaps. I don't know their side of the story. However
I've seen interviews with several of the writers, and they had fond memories
of their work with the two shows.
>
>
> As for Thundercats, yup it's got worse animation than in the vast
> majority of shows from Japan. As for what makes good animation? Well
> one hint, it doesn't always involve the number of cels flipped :)
True. Very true, though Thundercats didn't flip many cells...
>
>
> As for American vs. Japanese animation, well preferably there
> shouldn't be this argument floating about. Yes you're right that the
> US has created animated TV features for mature audiences. Take a look
> at the Maxx, great work easily one of the best animated works period.
> And definitely America was the big pioneer of animation and the early
> US animation was excellent stuff. However animation is taking a
> brutal beating in the US. Networks are gutting it and let's face it
> animation was never a big thing for the networks. I saw US and
> Japanese shows side by side in Hong Kong and I'm sorry to say that the
> US didn't fare very good. Yup there's still great shows on the US
> like Powerpuff Girls, Oggy & the Cockroaches and Dexter's Lab but they
> were severely outnumbered by the sheer number of great shows from
> Japan. Let's face it, it didn't exactly help the North American cause
> to export Ripley's Believe it or Not the animated series.
Not going to argue this. Animation in the US works on a constantly up-down
basis (With the 70s being an all-time low). Powerpuff is good (What's Oggy
and the Cockroaches?) but hardly the best examples of good American
animation. Whereas Japan and other countries seem able to stabilize the
quality of their work, so even the worst stuff has redeeming value.
>
>
> Hmm, one question I have to ask you okay? Were you the one you wrote
> down that you were losing respect for Japanese people because they had
> ahem weak wills on the Final Fantasy newsgroup?
I did at one time believe that, but a friend of mine on MSN convinced me
otherwise by informing me of some of the reasons behind their thinking.
Now that it makes sense, I've dropped my negative beliefs about the
Japanese.
Ethan Hammond
>
> Ethan Hammond <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> : How long did this take you to type? What? What? What? What?
>
> Were you under some obligation to quote the whole damn post?
It is the code of the schoolyard of course.
Ethan Hammond
> much static and he just argues with the Cables, same thing over and
> over.
> So Ethan, how's the wife?
Cute and fuzz brained. *Thumbs up*
deep within the bowels of aohell
novel's worth.
>1. THEY ALWAYS OVERGENERALIZE/BASTARDIZE ARGUEMENTS
I understand what you mean. Sometimes even when you say that a certain anime
is just not your favorite "type" of anime they will still flame you. I have
found, though that this is usually not the case and most anime fans are polite.
Even nice anime fans will flame somebody if they say, "<name of show here>
really SUCKS!" or something to that effect.
And I have to say that they deserve it. Even if you have seen said anime and
don't like it you should still respect somebody else's opinion.
I thought that "Otaku" litterally translated means, "Nerd"?
>2. THEY ALL MAKE THE SAME, STUPID ASSUMPTIONS, DESPITE ALL
> EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY
I have never had this problem. I don't believe that if you don't like a
certain show that it means you don't like all anime.
I do think that the "TV Crap" gives some anime a bad name.
DBZ was a good example during the first 3 American "seasons".
I'm not saying that DBZ is a really "deep" series or anything, all I'm saying
is that the dialogue is a heck of a lot more mature than what they made it out
to be. They tired to generalize it so it would appeal ONLY to children. It is
a fact that in Japan they marketed the TV series to kids (with product tie in's
and such) but it is also a fact that Dragonball appealed to adults as well.
Some adults were watching it as well. I remember something Akira Toriyama (the
creator of DB) said. He said that (pharaphased) "Dragonball is for everybody
that wants to read it."
I do like Ghost in the Shell and I think it does have a deeper meaning to it,
that is "Should we treat Andriods with the same respect that we give to human
beings?" That's my opinion and anybody is free to disagree with that, just as
long as you don't start off by calling me an "f****** idoit"
THAT is what will piss me off.
> 3. DELUDED ELATION OF CARTOONS
I have to stronging disagree with the use of "cartoons"
Nothing is a "cartoon" it is animation. In Japan and America, animation is
made for kids and adults. The reason that I disagree with the word, "cartoon"
is because it brings to mind something silly and for kids. Even some American
animation is aimed at kids but it is really for everybody. (Batman, Samurai
Jack, etc.) They make jokes and comments in these two shows that a six year
old would not understand and that a adult would get.
DBZ is mostly endless fighting but I still like it. DBZ kind of lost the
innocent and care free spirit of adventure that Dragonball had but, Hey! It's
fun to watch guys blow stuff up! DBZ is only ONE of my favorites however.
What do you think Cowboy BeBop is really about? If it is a masterpiece is a
matter of opinion I guess but I think it's excellent show. My advice is: When
you watch something, watch with an open mind.
If you don't think CB is mature then watch the episodes "Ganymede Elegy" and
"Jupiter Jazz (parts 1&2)" I think those episodes have very mature subject
matter.
> 4. THE GENERAL TREND OF SAMEYNESS IN THE FANDOM
Yes, a lot of people do recommend the same things but that is because they are
generally recoginzed as being good.
If someone asked me to recommend a anime show I would first ask them what kind
of shows they usually enjoy, drama, comedy? and then I would recommend
something.
I wouldn't automaticly not watch a show (Tenchi, Gundam) because the fans made
you mad. Give it a chance and make up your OWN mind whether you like it or
not. I did that with Salior Moon and I still didn't like it, just not my
thing. But I don't flame Saloir Moon fans, heck I've even discussed it with
people before.
>5. BLATANT DOUBLE-STANDARDS WITH REGARDS TO AMERICAN
> CARTOONS
I agree with you here. Just because it is American animation doesn't make it
automaticly inferior. Some people have said, for example that Samurai Jack is
pesdo anime. I don't think so, I think it is good enough to stand on it's own.
In conclusion, I think that if some people would be more open minded and
respectful that there wouldn't be so much spite between anime fans.
-
Alan
"Hey Mister, this here's the stairway to heaven. You know that don't cha'?"
"Obnoxious little frog." - Spike, Cowboy BeBop
Frank Wustner
> David Johnston wrote:
> > Since anyone who likes anime is an anime fan, someone who dislikes
> > anime fans while liking anime, dislikes theirself.
> Actually, this is inaccurate. You *can* like something without
> being a fan. It's a question of intensity. A fan, by definition,
> is a fanatic.
I must respecfully disagree with your definition. 'Fan' and 'fanatic'
are not the same thing. They are similar, but different by a matter of
degree. All fanatics are fans, but not all fans are fanatics.
Though I dislike "argument by dictionary", I will resort to it this one
time. In my dictionary, one of three definitions for 'fan' is "an
admirer of a sport, passtime, celebrity, etc.". 'Fanatic', however, is
"a person with extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal".
Again, they are similar, but not the same. I posit that you *are* a fan.
You are just a casual fan like me and not a drooling zealot.
--
The Deadly Nightshade
http://deadly_nightshade.tripod.com/
http://members.tripod.com/~deadly_nightshade/
|-----------------------------------|
|"I, too, believe in fate... |
|the fate a man makes for himself." |
|Lord Soth ("Time of the Twins") |
|-----------------------------------|
| Want to email me? Go to the URL |
| above and email me from there. |
|-----------------------------------|
Blade
> Blade wrote:
>
> <Snipped the rest of Blade's spot-on and often rather funny response>
>
> Notice that I actually admitted I snipped some of Blade's good points...
> Whcih of course proves that I'm totally willing to admit when I'm at
> fault (Something Blade likes to repeatedly deny).
Uh, 8-bit, when did I deny you were willing to admit you were at fault?
> > > 5. BLATANT DOUBLE-STANDARDS WITH REGARDS TO AMERICAN
> > > CARTOONS
> > > [This one was originally up-front, but I decided to put it here
> > > because otherwise the Otaku would've ignored the rest of the article
> > > and responded to this alone].
> >
> > Nah, this actually has an element of truth to it. Of course, it's
> > written with the same contemptuous,
> > you-are-all-not-worthy-to-breathe-the-same-air-as-I tone that you write
> > everything else,
>
> Which, except for some posts where I'm countering your fellow Otaku who
> do the exact same thing, is a blatant lie.
Actually, you're probably right...since you've been around for awhile
and I don't recall having this reaction to everything you write, I was
probably overstating the case. Let me rephrase: "that you write all
these rants in".
> > and contains the same tiresome overgeneralisations and
> > simplifications as the rest of this post.
> >
> > Hey, 8-bit...you ever consider that one reason so many people seem to
> > "snap" at you might have more to do with HOW you say things rather than
> > what you're saying?
>
> I recognize that when it's true--which yes, actually *has* happened quite a
> number of times. Despite what you seem to like to believe, no, it's *not*
> always 100% my fault I get snapped at. Especially on some fandom-specific
> message boards which forbid flaming. It was on one such board that an Otaku
> snapped at me. This isn't the only Otaku horror story I've ever had. It's
> also
> an odd coincidence that these Otakus were also usually the only people who
> found me worthy of being snapped at. Everyone else (and sometimes even
> the less obsessive Otaku) never found me so offending. Yes I'll admit there
> are times when I am at fault, and when *everyone* gets mad at me. Now it's
> time for *you* to admit that, yes, sometimes the Otaku are at fault.
Sure. I will freely admit that, in fact endorse it wholeheartedly. My
post was not intended in any way to defend the more obsessive branches
of fandom, which I loathe. It was intended to rebut a) your
generalisations about this group, and about anime fandom in general, and
b) your overall tone.
> > That maybe, just maybe, if you didn't come off as
> > -quite- so much of an egotistical asshole, people might be more willing
> > to listen?
> There are only two times I'm ever egotistical. In the first instance, the
> discussion
> is non-serious and thus I'm usually joking anyway. The second time is in a
> heated
> flame war, in which case I'm showing what virtues I have that my enemy
> doesn't.
> Neither are serious discussions and anything goes.
>
> Any other time, I'm not being egotistical, though many of the people I've
> been
> in arguements with like to believe so because it gives them a convenient
> excuse
> to dodge my points. Hell, I've even noticed several problems with myself
> that
> most others miss, and have criticized myself and almost all of my own
> writing on
> several occasions, so I'm obviously not egotistical.
I'll take your word for it. In that case, you might want to be a little
more careful with how you phrase things, since some of your posts (such
as the original one of this thread) certainly come off SOUNDING
egotistical.
Blade
*******
Also Known As: Chris McNeil, The Annoying Jerk, The Enemy of Democracy,
"That Guy That Can't Write A Lunch Menu Without Pantyhose Tarou Being In
It Somewhere"
All web pages, except my Evil Zone one, down
till further notice. Bleahh. >_<
"Oh, come on. Being printed "in English" is no reason to choose a
particular spelling. If it were, we'd all be saying "Captain Herlock.""
- Trish Ledoux on the Ah!/Oh My Goddess controversy, 14/09/93
Shadow6865
between Daria and South Park >>
Read more carefully. I stated that there were some mature american animation
and I said Daria was one these. Then I said there was some american animation
which was adult but far from mature. I included South Park in this category.
<< South Park (BOTH of which I like), and you stating that
it's "simply crass, rude, vulgar, and pure shock value" tells me that you
haven't watched it. >>
i have seen plenty of episodes of South Park (about 15-20 episodes) including
the original short with Jesus and Santa Claus kung-fu fighting each other. I
think it is my description of it was perfectly acceptable. I have also seen
plenty of Family Guy and Beavis and Butthead and I think that my description of
those shows stand perfectly well too,
Dyson
Frank Wustner wrote:
>
> Dyson <sile...@altavista.com> wrote:
> > David Johnston wrote:
>
> > > Since anyone who likes anime is an anime fan, someone who dislikes
> > > anime fans while liking anime, dislikes theirself.
>
> > Actually, this is inaccurate. You *can* like something without
> > being a fan. It's a question of intensity. A fan, by definition,
> > is a fanatic.
>
> I must respecfully disagree with your definition. 'Fan' and 'fanatic'
> are not the same thing. They are similar, but different by a matter of
> degree. All fanatics are fans, but not all fans are fanatics.
>
> Though I dislike "argument by dictionary", I will resort to it this one
> time. In my dictionary, one of three definitions for 'fan' is "an
> admirer of a sport, passtime, celebrity, etc.". 'Fanatic', however, is
> "a person with extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal".
>
Unfortunately, you've forgotten that 'fan' is short for
'fanatic', always has been, always will be. All the dictionary
you used is provide the popular definition and not the root.
I'm actually surprised that the dictionary used to look up
the definitions didn't point that one out.
Robert Hutchinson
> Unfortunately, you've forgotten that 'fan' is short for
> 'fanatic', always has been, always will be. All the dictionary
> you used is provide the popular definition and not the root.
> I'm actually surprised that the dictionary used to look up
> the definitions didn't point that one out.
'Lunatic' refers to the moon, so be sure not to call someone that unless
you believe their behavior is directly influenced by the moon.
--
Since when does a word's root define it for eternity?
Robert Hutchinson |
| "Butterflies are real asses."
| -- Conan O'Brien
|
ZoqFotPik
> 1. THEY ALWAYS OVERGENERALIZE/BASTARDIZE ARGUEMENTS
> I'm not talking about anime fans as a whole. I never am.
> Usually I *very specifically* point out one small fraction
> of the anime fandom that bothers me, and take *paragraphs*
> just to make this clear.
> But does it ever help? No. Apparently, Anime fans
> can't seem to grasp the concept of someone who hates
> *specific* groups of anime fans but not anime fans as
> a whole.
The criteria you use to define that "specific group" tend to include
more people that you suspect...
> Some time ago, on a messageboard, I got into a discussion
> where I mentioned "Otaku" in a negative light. I *clearly*
> stated that I was using the TRUE definition of Otaku, which
> is someone with an unhealthy obsession with something. I
> took a 15-line paragraph making *sure* there was no way any
> present anime fans could get any other idea than the one I
> was trying to convey, but WHAT HAPPENS? They accuse me of
> bashing anime fans in general, AGAIN, despite that that was
> clearly what I was *not* doing! I used a whole response to
> try to correct the misconception, but it never seemed to
> register, and instead the anime fan I managed to accidentally
> tick off attacked me to the point where the discussion was
> about to erupt in flames, all because the fan in question
> couldn't understand that she made a mistake!
> Really, it's pointless to even try to narrow out *specific*
> anime fans, because as far as they're concerned, there are
> no fractions, just one big whole.
That is an entirely unfounded generalization.
> To paraphrase Psycho Dave's excellent "Why I Hate Anime Geeks"
> Article: "I get messages from these people all the time, who
> bitch about how I overgeneralize. They, of course, aren't really
> reading my articles -- they are seeing some aspects of themselves
> portrayed, and jump to the conclusion that i am attacking them."
If you make statemets as broad as the one above, obviously people will
think that you are attacking them.
> Let's face it: They never, *ever* give a straight, direct
> response to any arguements brought up, and instead end up confusing
> the arguement until it's nothing but a senseless mass of babbling.
For example, at this point in your diatribe "they" would appear to be
anime fans, or perhaps "anime geeks". As I am an anime fan, when
reading the above paragraph, I find myself being accused of doing
things I most certainly do not do.
> To drive the point home: Let's see how many Otaku here actually
> read this *whole thing* and then make a direct, intelligent response
> to it. Chances are, only about two or three will pass, and the
> rest will simply try to flame me.
A self-fulfilling prophecy...
> 2. THEY ALL MAKE THE SAME, STUPID ASSUMPTIONS, DESPITE ALL
> EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY
> On a related note: In the minds of Otaku (I'm using the
> Bastardized Anime Fan definition this time) not liking Anime
> fans is somehow the same as not liking Anime. Also, not liking
> Anime or even one Anime in particular is somehow an attack on
> Anime Fandom, even if you don't say *anything* derogatory about
> the Fans. Even if you say something as simple as "I don't like
> Sailor Moon" they take that out of proportion and end up somehow
> thinking you hate *all* anime!
> I myself have fallen under this same category several times. Somehow,
>
> not liking Ghost in the Shell and Ninja Scroll means I must also hate
> Ranma,
> Voltron, Robotech, and Galaxy Express 999, despite my ever-growing
> Robotech DVD collection and my openly stating otherwise.
You have a tendancy to critisize elements in the things that you
dislike that are quite common across entire genres or mediums, leading
to the obvious conclusion that you dislike that genre or medium.
> Another typical Anime Fan assumption is that if you don't
> like anime, you must have not seen much of it outside of the
> "Crap" on TV (Almost all of which were big names in Otakudom
> 3-5 years ago, BTW). Again, I've fallen under this category, despite
> my having seen not *just* the "TV Crap" but also a good chunk of
> what was popular in the late 90s and many non-suggested ones that
> I picked up at random, and about ten or so that many Otaku had never
> even heard of before this year (Like Sherlock Hound, which was obscure
> until some company picked it up for DVD release, and Ninja the Wonder
> Boy, which to my knowledge is still an unknown title), yet, because I
> don't
> like *certain* titles, I'm "ignorant" to *all* anime. Does that make
> sense
> to any non-Otaku out there?
It is usually when you claim that a particular example is
representative of the whole that you will be accused of ignorance.
> 3. DELUDED ELATION OF CARTOONS
> Years ago, Otaku were raving about how Sailor Moon (which
> I just addressed), Dragon Ball Z (A bunch of endless fighting),
> Ghost in the Shell ("Not Really" Nude girl fights people), Akira
> (Blood, guts, no content), Macross Plus (A sh**ty love story)
> and Tenchi (which varies depending on which version you watch)
> had such excellent plotlines, how "deep" they were, how complex
> the characters!
Macross Plus was excellent, yes. Ghost in the Shell and Akira tried
too hard, but were decent. DBZ, Sailor Moon, and especially the
Tenchi Muyo OVA's were fun, and meant as little more than that, though
all made a reasonable effort to establish their characters and
construct a storyline.
> They still do that, except now the list has been updated
> to include more recent anime, because the older stuff is being
> played on TV, so we're all having a chance to see that, good
> as it may be, it obviously isn't a collection of masterpieces
> like Otaku would like to believe.
They were milestones of anime, and influential, but not
"masterpieces".
> I can think of exactly *one* person (besides myself) who
> likes an anime--Cowboy Bebop--For being what it *is*, rather
> than having to delude himself into believing it's some sort
> of Sci-Fi masterpiece. Said guy is, sadly, a troll (which
> unfortunately gives the simple-minded Otaku an excuse to
> blow off any good points he makes).
Cowboy Bebop is well-made filler, nothing more. Very entertaining,
but not much else.
> I myself like Robotech. I like it *not* because it
> has some sort of deep, meaningful plot (Which it doesn't),
> but rather because it has action, suspense, great music, the
> corn factor of the ever-present narrator, and because I have
> a thing for shows of a serial nature (Except for when it's
> convenient for one of my little raves that I don't).
You realize, of course, that Robotech is a bastardized version of
three seperate series?
> It's really, really sad that Otaku feel they have to
> justify their preferences. Not only because it blocks them
> from enjoying all but a meager 10% of what's available, but
> because their delusions end up turning them into unreasonable
> hypocrites.
I cannot even begin to decipher this...
> 4. THE GENERAL TREND OF SAMEYNESS IN THE FANDOM
> This one's easy to prove: Try asking them to recommend
> anime to you (or wait for a newbie to ask for recommendations).
> They'll all recommend the same thing. These anime they list
> are pretty much all they talk about in other threads, which
> makes it even *worse*. After a normal day on rec.arts.anime.misc,
> the *only* reason I don't want to watch Utena, Tenchi, Cowboy
> Bebop, Outlaw Star, Ghost in the Shell, or various Gundams is
> simply because I got bored hearing so damn much about them.
A foolish decision. Watch them and then form your own opinions.
> Now, let's suppose you actually *do* like anime, but the
> anime you happen to like just doesn't happen to be one of the
> "Big names." Try saying, say, that you like Speed Racer or
> Robotech. Either you'll be flamed for having different tastes
> in anime, or they'll become condescending and try to baby-step
> you into watching "Real" anime.
Speed Racer and Robotech definitely represent the shallow end of the
pool, so to speak. There is better anime out there.
> Besides that, I can't think of how many times many of the
> same subjects have kept coming up. When that happens, you can
> usually expect the repeat to be a big, long post. I've seen
> precisely *four* Goku vs. Superman threads. One on
> Yesterdayland.com, another on the PlanetNamek forum, and *two*
> on rec.arts.anime.misc. On RAAM, the post was f***ing long
> (as if that was even a remotely interesting subject--Goku would
> obviously win). And this isn't the only one.
> It's no wonder I often have to take week-long breaks from
> that newsgroup (or any place that predominantly features Otaku).
> Threads in general tend to be samey, with the exact same arguements
> being made again and again, always ending at a stalemate and
> starting over again next week. And unless it involves DBZ (or
> the Cable brothers) no one ever disagrees (because the Otaku
> would go haywire if you did). So basically you'll see big long
> threads where basically someone says something someone agrees
> with and everyone else chimes in to talk about how right he is.
> Occasionally a "Troll" comes in, but we can't have someone actually
> making the thread *interesting* so everyone has to killfile him
> and go back to talking about how right everyone else is.
If by "interesting" you mean "insulting", then no, we cannot have
that.
> 5. BLATANT DOUBLE-STANDARDS WITH REGARDS TO AMERICAN
> CARTOONS
> [This one was originally up-front, but I decided to put it here
> because otherwise the Otaku would've ignored the rest of the article
> and responded to this alone].
> I one time saw an Otaku claim American toons were all
> comedies. This is, obviously, wrong, so I merely pointed
> out as much (No flames or anything) and what happened? He
> snapped at me!
> Chances are, if I had went in, saying "Anime is nothing
> but comedies" he would, too, have tried to correct me, like
> I tried to correct him. Remember, in Otakudom, they already
> go hay crazy if you try to point out flaws in any given anime.
> So, it's alright to make obviously wrong generalizations
> about American Cartoons, but anyone who comments on Anime has
> to have an Anime Encyclopedia handy before their comments are
> valid.
> This isn't even the worst of the Double-Standards. Anime
> Fans make up about half of another crowd I hate--those who bash
> classic 80s Cartoons, for reasons like "They're nothing but
> toy commercials", "They're all cheaply produced" and "The animation
> really sucked." (Remember, they're criticizing a whole ten-year
> output for all this). What's sad is that alot of these "Flaws"
> are true for a lot of anime, as well, a few examples:
But they most certainly are true of much of the animation that came
out of America in the 80's. The 90's were something of a rennaisance
for US animation.
> Watch Thundercats. Notice something about the animation?
> It is 100% an exact mimic of anime style! Yet somehow Thundercats
> has sucky, cheap animation, but the average anime (which, again,
> has no stylistic difference) doesn't.
Being unable to see a stylistic difference between the Thudercats and
the average anime series really calls the rest of your opinions into
question...
> One anime that Otaku really like (unless it's convenient
> for their arguement that they consider it "TV Trash") is Sailor
> Moon, an anime that is riddled with stock footage, corny dialogue,
> and formula plotlines. This leads to one of my favorite match
> ups: Sailor Moon vs. She-Ra (It was Sailor Moon vs. He-Man, but
> I like She-Ra better).
> She-Ra is very similar to Sailor Moon in many respects. They
> both have the same plot--A girl finds out she's a princess and a
> superhero and uses her powers to fight evil--both have corny
> dialogue, and lots of stock footage. There is *absolutely nothing*
> that makes one better than the other.
There is actually a great deal that makes one better than the other,
especially if you attempt to compare She-Ra to the original,
unmodified version of Sailor Moon. In spite of all its filler, Sailor
Moon had its share of very powerful, dramatic moments, and some of the
episodes were very well animated.
> Here's where the Double-standard comes in: Sailor Moon is
> considered an artistic, well-written epic, whereas She-Ra is
> considered a cheap piece of crap meant to sell a toy. This is
> despite that Sailor Moon was also toy-based, and She-Ra's makers
> obviously put more effort into production than Sailor Moon's did
> (They even rotoscoped it using live actors, and at *least* had
> the decency to change the backgrounds for given situations--Sailor
> Moon didn't even do *that*!).
She-Ra's makers obviously put very little effort into it's production.
Filmation's cartoons were generally very cheaply made.
> And this leads me to the last Double-Standard: Samey character
> designs. Both American and Japanese toons have a tendancy for 'em,
> but somehow the Otaku can ignore it when it happens in anime, but
> it's an unforgiveable sin if done in America.
Neither American nor Japanese cartoons have such homogenous character
designs.
> Actually, there's one last double-standard: Otaku are always
> bitching about how American toons should be more mature--but
> they conveniently ignore the fact that mature American toons have
> been being produced in America for a *long* time (most predominantly
> since 1992).
Only a tiny handfull. Aside from WB's DC cartoons, prime time
comedies, and an occasional gem, American animation has never been
especially mature.
Fata Morgana
"Dyson" <sile...@altavista.com> wrote in message
news:3C6B057B...@altavista.com...
>
>
> I don't sing along with theme songs;
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I sing along with theme songs. I also sing along with
the radio when I'm in my car. And if I have a Puccini opera CD playing, or
a Sting CD, or a recording of "The Merry Widow" (in German, of course), I
sing along as well. I happen to like to sing, even if I'm not very good at
it, and don't know the language. ^_^; Does that make me a "fan" by your
definition? Seems to me it just makes me an Italian. ^_^;;;
Fata Morgana
"8-Bit Star" <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3C69D108...@hotmail.com...
>
>
>
> 1. THEY ALWAYS OVERGENERALIZE/BASTARDIZE ARGUEMENTS
*cough* *cough* Sorry, but isn't that an overgeneralization? :p
> I'm not talking about anime fans as a whole. I never am.
OK. Personally, when I'm talking about the most "fanatical" branch of anime
fans, I say "otaku." It just helps with language to have some separation
between "someone who likes anime" and "someone who is consumed by anime."
My favorite (and most chilling) definition of otaku can be found here:
http://www.z-builder.com/manga/
Andy's definition is at the bottom of the page, in small print.
<<snip of some ranting>>
> Really, it's pointless to even try to narrow out *specific*
> anime fans, because as far as they're concerned, there are
> no fractions, just one big whole.
Hmm, sounds like another generalization. However, I admit the point that
there are some message boards out there where the group-think was a bit
heavy.
<<snipity>>
> To drive the point home: Let's see how many Otaku here actually
> read this *whole thing* and then make a direct, intelligent response
> to it. Chances are, only about two or three will pass, and the
> rest will simply try to flame me.
So far, you haven't gotten any real "flames", except for perhaps that one
troll accusation. But even that seemed like a good-natured rib. However,
by all means, take it as a flame if you like. It still makes the majority
of responses to this thread "direct" and "intelligent".
>
>
> 2. THEY ALL MAKE THE SAME, STUPID ASSUMPTIONS, DESPITE ALL
> EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY
> On a related note: In the minds of Otaku (I'm using the
> Bastardized Anime Fan definition this time) not liking Anime
> fans is somehow the same as not liking Anime. Also, not liking
> Anime or even one Anime in particular is somehow an attack on
> Anime Fandom, even if you don't say *anything* derogatory about
> the Fans. Even if you say something as simple as "I don't like
> Sailor Moon" they take that out of proportion and end up somehow
> thinking you hate *all* anime!
Hmm. Did somebody here say something like that? I hate Sailor Moon. I'm
pretty sure I've posted that here before. So far, I haven't gotten any
flames for it, or told that I hate all anime because of it. I guess you
must be talking about some other place. But really, I've never been on any
message board/newsgroup where the people flamed you for disliking Sailor
Moon. Maybe it's just the places you've been hanging out.
<<snip>>
> 3. DELUDED ELATION OF CARTOONS
So I like cartoons. Sue me. :p
> Years ago, Otaku were raving about how Sailor Moon (which
> I just addressed), Dragon Ball Z (A bunch of endless fighting),
> Ghost in the Shell ("Not Really" Nude girl fights people),
>Akira
> (Blood, guts, no content),
Actually, I've always looked at Akira as a beautifully drawn music video.
;) The animation and music are the main reasons why I own the film.
>Macross Plus (A sh**ty love story)
Again, the animation and music. And kick ass fight scenes.
> and Tenchi (which varies depending on which version you watch)
> had such excellent plotlines, how "deep" they were, how complex
> the characters!
I guess I haven't been at RAAM long enough. The couple of years I've been
here, I don't recall anyone calling any of those cartoons "deep", except
maybe Akira, and that was only because of it's association with the manga.
Of course, someone might have said something about SM, DB, or Tenchi being
deep. My eyes go blurry whenever I accidentally click on a thread about one
of those series, so I really don't know what such threads might contain. ;)
> I can think of exactly *one* person (besides myself) who
> likes an anime--Cowboy Bebop--For being what it *is*, rather
> than having to delude himself into believing it's some sort
> of Sci-Fi masterpiece. Said guy is, sadly, a troll (which
> unfortunately gives the simple-minded Otaku an excuse to
> blow off any good points he makes).
Well, you can add me to that list, if you aren't blinded by prejudice. Hell
yeah, I like CB for what it is. It's pretty much the same reason I like
films like "The Big Sleep" and "To Have and Have Not." Half of the films
Bogie made were popular because of style, mood and character interaction
(same reason I like CB). Plot, character development, and coherence (see:
"The Big Sleep" :p) basically went out the window.
<<snip>>
> 4. THE GENERAL TREND OF SAMEYNESS IN THE FANDOM
> This one's easy to prove: Try asking them to recommend
> anime to you (or wait for a newbie to ask for recommendations).
> They'll all recommend the same thing. These anime they list
> are pretty much all they talk about in other threads, which
> makes it even *worse*. After a normal day on rec.arts.anime.misc,
> the *only* reason I don't want to watch Utena, Tenchi, Cowboy
> Bebop, Outlaw Star, Ghost in the Shell, or various Gundams is
> simply because I got bored hearing so damn much about them.
Um. . . so you don't like popular series. . . because they're popular?
Well, I admit to some of that kind of snobbery myself. I tend to shy away
from things I percieve as "popular." But half the time, I end up kicking
myself when I finally watch these things, wondering why I waited so long.
> Now, let's suppose you actually *do* like anime, but the
> anime you happen to like just doesn't happen to be one of the
> "Big names." Try saying, say, that you like Speed Racer or
> Robotech.
I like Robotech. It was one of the first Japanese series that I ever really
dug. Anyone have a problem with that?
. . . .
Didn't think so.
>Either you'll be flamed for having different tastes
> in anime, or they'll become condescending and try to baby-step
> you into watching "Real" anime.
> Besides that, I can't think of how many times many of the
> same subjects have kept coming up. When that happens, you can
> usually expect the repeat to be a big, long post. I've seen
> precisely *four* Goku vs. Superman threads. One on
> Yesterdayland.com, another on the PlanetNamek forum, and *two*
> on rec.arts.anime.misc. On RAAM, the post was f***ing long
> (as if that was even a remotely interesting subject--Goku would
> obviously win). And this isn't the only one.
Whenever anyone mentions DB my eyes glaze over. I never even see those
threads, because I'm hard-wired to ignore them. You should try ignoring
them yourself. You probably wouldn't get so worked up about the subject if
you did.
> It's no wonder I often have to take week-long breaks from
> that newsgroup (or any place that predominantly features Otaku).
The funny thing is, in some ways this group is _anti-otaku_. I remember way
back in the day, the first time I came here. When I first got into anime,
you could probably have labeled me an "otaku" with some justice (well,
except that I didn't know any Japanese, didn't own any posters, and didn't
own any anime to speak of. But by your definition of fanatic loyalty to
anime, thinking that it was better than American animation, I was an otaku).
And when I came here the first time, I was scared to death of posting here.
Everyone was so damn _mean_ to otaku. Anyone who posted an otaku-style post
got cut down to size. For a long time, I stayed away from this group, and
instead frequented groups/message boards that were more kindly to otaku
mentality. There are many groups guilty of otaku-think. This is not one of
them.
> Threads in general tend to be same, with the exact same arguements
> being made again and again, always ending at a stalemate and
> starting over again next week.
Might that have something to do with the fact that a lot of new posters come
here, and also that those of us who are regulars don't read every thread?
Just a theory.
> And unless it involves DBZ (or
> the Cable brothers) no one ever disagrees (because the Otaku
> would go haywire if you did).
Bwahahahahahahah!! Thanks, I need that. :p Now see, when you post things
like this, people think you're a troll. No one ever disagrees?! People
here disagree on everything. Even Cowboy Bebop, which was a series I
thought it was impossible to dislike. (Sea Wasp, how the frell can you hate
jazz?!) I know you've spent more time in this group that this statement
lets on. So either you have an extremely short term memory, or you're using
subterfuge to (try to) set people off.
<<snip>>
>
> 5. BLATANT DOUBLE-STANDARDS WITH REGARDS TO AMERICAN
> CARTOONS
This is actually kind of true. But I wish you'd stay away from the
generalizations; it make you look like the people you're criticising.
<<snipity>>
> Actually, there's one last double-standard: Otaku are always
> bitching about how American toons should be more mature--but
> they conveniently ignore the fact that mature American toons have
> been being produced in America for a *long* time (most predominantly
> since 1992).
Longer than that. If you look at Max Fleischer cartoons from the 20's and
30's and Bugs Bunny 'toons from the 30s and 40s, there's mature humor there
that obviously predates anime. Sexual innuendo, satire on modern society
(modern for the period, of course), parody of current events. Bugs is the
greatest! I _really_ became a Bugs Bunny fan around the age of 18, when I
finally got the "other" jokes that Bugs was making. ;)
Anyway, blah blah blah. Anime fans bad, evil, must be destroyed. A few good
points in your post, but way too much overgeneralization.
Death Chase Ramen
> << South Park (BOTH of which I like), and you stating that
> it's "simply crass, rude, vulgar, and pure shock value" tells me that you
> haven't watched it. >>
>
> i have seen plenty of episodes of South Park (about 15-20 episodes)
including
> the original short with Jesus and Santa Claus kung-fu fighting each other.
I
> think it is my description of it was perfectly acceptable. I have also
seen
> plenty of Family Guy and Beavis and Butthead and I think that my
description of
> those shows stand perfectly well too,
Usually SP has some sort of parody theme going on but generally most people
watch it because they think a show with swearing and fart jokes makes them
edgy and cool.
Blade
If you say "a fan, by -definition-, if a fanatic" (emphasis mind), then
the definition of the word is rather relevent, no?
The origin of the word isn't really relevent, only what it actually
means in common parlance.
Homyguy Z
"Doug Jacobs" <dja...@rawbw.com> wrote in message
news:u6m32kc...@corp.supernews.com...
If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
overgeneralization.
-Homyguy Z
Homyguy Z
"Blade" <takatsu...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:3C6BC2B6...@rogers.com...
Aw, bullshit. You just like to disagree. :D
-Homyguy Z
Fish Eye no Miko
news:20020214090036...@mb-md.aol.com...
>> There's a world of difference between Daria and South Park
>
> Read more carefully. I stated that there were some mature american
animation
> and I said Daria was one these. Then I said there was some american
animation
> which was adult but far from mature. I included South Park in this
category.
My bad. Sorry.
<though, in the future, it would help people "read more carefully" if you'd
include what they're supposed to be reading. I had to go back and find it
on my server>
> > South Park (BOTH of which I like), and you stating that it's "simply
>> crass, rude, vulgar, and pure shock value" tells me that you haven't
>> watched it.
>
> i have seen plenty of episodes of South Park
Now you need to read more carefully. I was referring to _Daria_.
My sentence was:
:: There's a world of difference between Daria and South Park (BOTH of
which
:: I like), and you stating that it's "simply crass, rude, vulgar, and pure
shock value"
:: tells me that you haven't watched it.
The "it's" in the second line refers to Daria.
Actually.. Perhaps I was a bit unclear. If so, I'm sorry.
Catherine Johnson. Oy.
--
dis "able" to reply
"I will take the Ring to Mordor, though I do not know the way."
-Frodo Baggins, _The Fellowship of the Ring_.
Fish Eye no Miko
news:MPG.16d5a4dde...@news.vol.com...
> Dyson says...
>
> > Unfortunately, you've forgotten that 'fan' is short for
> > 'fanatic', always has been, always will be. All the dictionary
> > you used is provide the popular definition and not the root.
> > I'm actually surprised that the dictionary used to look up
> > the definitions didn't point that one out.
>
> 'Lunatic' refers to the moon, so be sure not to call someone that
> unless you believe their behavior is directly influenced by the moon.
And let's not eve get into the roots for the word "hysterical"
> Since when does a word's root define it for eternity?
Actually, I had a debate on an ng about the fact that I shouldn't use the
word "homophobe" since people who don't approve of homosexuality aren't
necessarily "afraid" of them.
(of course, "homo" means same, so if you insist on sticking to a word's
roots, all "homophobe" really means is "fear of sameness")
Languages change, folk. Always have, always will. Heck, about 10-20
years ago, the words "Internet" and "Usenet" didn't exist, and "Web" was
just something a spider or a liar wove.
Catherine Johnson.
--
dis "able" to reply
"Yes, it's 500 years in the future. Man is a degraded species, apes rule
the planet; everything you know and love is gone. Now, your movie this
week..."
-Professor Bobo , _Mystery Science Theater 3000_.
Death Chase Ramen
news:ecWa8.140784$a07.40...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
And people who try to blow off an argument with cliché catch phrases in a
pale attempt to be "clever".
David Johnston
Do you always use the root definition for a word? If so you must
have difficulty communicating with people speaking 20th century
english.
David Johnston
>
> "Doug Jacobs" <dja...@rawbw.com> wrote in message
> news:u6m32kc...@corp.supernews.com..
> >
> >
> >
> > > 1. THEY ALWAYS OVERGENERALIZE/BASTARDIZE ARGUEMENTS
> > [200 line diatribe snipped]
> >
> > Pot, kettle, black, anyone?
>
> If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
> overgeneralization.
It is, however, stupid.
"People who always overgeneralise, always overgeneralise."
Of course quite apart from that shining example of circularity,
he did quite a bit of overgeneralising about other things in his
rant.
David Johnston
>
> "Homyguy Z" <chay...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:ecWa8.140784$a07.40...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com..
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 1. THEY ALWAYS OVERGENERALIZE/BASTARDIZE ARGUEMENTS
> > > [200 line diatribe snipped]
> > >
> > > Pot, kettle, black, anyone?
> >
> > If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
> > overgeneralization.
>
> And people who try to blow off an argument with cliché catch phrases in a
> pale attempt to be "clever".
You forgot to finish your sentence.
Doug Jacobs
So, it's OK to slam a group for overgeneralizing by making an
overgeneralization yourself?
Sorry, but that's the easiest way to lose an argument. It's really a
shame they don't teach formalized debate in schools anymore...
Doug Jacobs
> Now there are Trek fanboys, but those aren't the labels for them. They're
> ususally called weird. *Remembers a Klingon camp where you had to say in
> costume and speak the language during the two weeks of your stay."
Well, the best way to learn a language (any language) is total immersion.
Since we can't go to Khronos, this seems reasonable to me...
I can certainly understand learning a language for a hobby...after all,
how many here are studying Japanese because of anime? To call Klingon
students "weird" seems awfully close minded to me.
Laurie Cubbison
Doug Jacobs wrote:
Well, I'm trying, but I don't think any of my students are on this news
group. More's the pity.
laurie
Death Chase Ramen
news:3C6C43...@telusplanet.net...
Yes, I should have pointed out the number one resident example.
Farix
Farix
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8-Bit Star
ZoqFotPik wrote:
> 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3C69D108...@hotmail.com>...
>
> > Let's face it: They never, *ever* give a straight, direct
> > response to any arguements brought up, and instead end up confusing
> > the arguement until it's nothing but a senseless mass of babbling.
>
> > To drive the point home: Let's see how many Otaku here actually
> > read this *whole thing* and then make a direct, intelligent response
> > to it. Chances are, only about two or three will pass, and the
> > rest will simply try to flame me.
>
> A self-fulfilling prophecy...
Except for one thing: It never happened. The thread is dead now, and
the "Self fulfilling prophecy" never happened.
<snip some points that I'm not up to argueing and are probably right anyway>
>
> > I myself like Robotech. I like it *not* because it
> > has some sort of deep, meaningful plot (Which it doesn't),
> > but rather because it has action, suspense, great music, the
> > corn factor of the ever-present narrator, and because I have
> > a thing for shows of a serial nature (Except for when it's
> > convenient for one of my little raves that I don't).
>
> You realize, of course, that Robotech is a bastardized version of
> three seperate series?
Yes, and after I got into Robotech (which happened purely by chance,
BTW) I didn't really care. If I did, I'd buy Macross, Southern Cross,
and Mospeada, and boycott Robotech. (Actually, I'm considering
getting Macross anyway).
>
>
> > Now, let's suppose you actually *do* like anime, but the
> > anime you happen to like just doesn't happen to be one of the
> > "Big names." Try saying, say, that you like Speed Racer or
> > Robotech. Either you'll be flamed for having different tastes
> > in anime, or they'll become condescending and try to baby-step
> > you into watching "Real" anime.
>
> Speed Racer and Robotech definitely represent the shallow end of the
> pool, so to speak. There is better anime out there.
Depends on your tastes, I guess. Speed Racer has all sorts of little
things going for it, and I've already explained my Robotech criteria...
I think...
Not really... The only *bad* decade American animation ever really had
was the 70s.
>
> > One anime that Otaku really like (unless it's convenient
> > for their arguement that they consider it "TV Trash") is Sailor
> > Moon, an anime that is riddled with stock footage, corny dialogue,
> > and formula plotlines. This leads to one of my favorite match
> > ups: Sailor Moon vs. She-Ra (It was Sailor Moon vs. He-Man, but
> > I like She-Ra better).
> > She-Ra is very similar to Sailor Moon in many respects. They
> > both have the same plot--A girl finds out she's a princess and a
> > superhero and uses her powers to fight evil--both have corny
> > dialogue, and lots of stock footage. There is *absolutely nothing*
> > that makes one better than the other.
>
> There is actually a great deal that makes one better than the other,
> especially if you attempt to compare She-Ra to the original,
> unmodified version of Sailor Moon. In spite of all its filler, Sailor
> Moon had its share of very powerful, dramatic moments, and some of the
> episodes were very well animated.
*Shrugs* She-Ra has more intense fight scenes, more varied episodes,
and the better transformation sequence of the two.
>
>
> > Here's where the Double-standard comes in: Sailor Moon is
> > considered an artistic, well-written epic, whereas She-Ra is
> > considered a cheap piece of crap meant to sell a toy. This is
> > despite that Sailor Moon was also toy-based, and She-Ra's makers
> > obviously put more effort into production than Sailor Moon's did
> > (They even rotoscoped it using live actors, and at *least* had
> > the decency to change the backgrounds for given situations--Sailor
> > Moon didn't even do *that*!).
>
> She-Ra's makers obviously put very little effort into it's production.
> Filmation's cartoons were generally very cheaply made.
I think that's pretty much Filmation's main claim to fame. They at least
had some clever writers (Well, He-Man did... She-Ra had the Amazing
Technicolor War-Torn World).
Blade
> Aw, bullshit. You just like to disagree. :D
<laugh out loud>
Thanks. I needed that. ^_^
Frank Wustner
> Frank Wustner wrote:
> > Dyson <sile...@altavista.com> wrote:
> > > David Johnston wrote:
> > > > Since anyone who likes anime is an anime fan, someone who dislikes
> > > > anime fans while liking anime, dislikes theirself.
> > > Actually, this is inaccurate. You *can* like something without
> > > being a fan. It's a question of intensity. A fan, by definition,
> > > is a fanatic.
> > I must respecfully disagree with your definition. 'Fan' and 'fanatic'
> > are not the same thing. They are similar, but different by a matter of
> > degree. All fanatics are fans, but not all fans are fanatics.
> > Though I dislike "argument by dictionary", I will resort to it this one
> > time. In my dictionary, one of three definitions for 'fan' is "an
> > admirer of a sport, passtime, celebrity, etc.". 'Fanatic', however, is
> > "a person with extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal".
> Unfortunately, you've forgotten that 'fan' is short for
> 'fanatic', always has been, always will be.
Uh, please don't pretend to be a mind reader. I forgot nothing.
> All the dictionary
> you used is provide the popular definition and not the root.
FYI, popular meanings are at least as important as the roots.
--
The Deadly Nightshade
http://deadly_nightshade.tripod.com/
http://members.tripod.com/~deadly_nightshade/
|-----------------------------------|
| "Never say 'bite me' to Shishio |
| Makoto." |
Jack Bohn
>Michael Lo wrote:
>
>> for She-Ra, the animators hated working for that and He-Man. The show
>> was utter crap to work for as the animators mainly just re-used old
>> stock motion footage,
>
>I noticed. One thing I love about old Filmation 'toons is how much me
>and my friends could joke about them (Including several stock footage
>jokes)...
"Even you can't be that evil, Skeletor!"
"Ah, but I can, He-Man!"
--
-Jack
ZoqFotPik
> Except for one thing: It never happened. The thread is dead now, and
> the "Self fulfilling prophecy" never happened.
Only because you were not flamed as you had expected to be.
> Depends on your tastes, I guess. Speed Racer has all sorts of little
> things going for it, and I've already explained my Robotech criteria...
> I think...
There simply is no reasonable criteria by which Speed Racer or
Robotech could be considered superior to something like Cowboy Bebop
or Princess Mononoke.
> Not really... The only *bad* decade American animation ever really had
> was the 70s.
The 80's were not particularly bad, they simply were not very good.
> *Shrugs* She-Ra has more intense fight scenes, more varied episodes,
> and the better transformation sequence of the two.
You have a very vivid imagination.
> I think that's pretty much Filmation's main claim to fame. They at least
> had some clever writers (Well, He-Man did... She-Ra had the Amazing
> Technicolor War-Torn World).
No, Filmation's cartoon were not particularly well written either.
David Johnston
>
> Dyson <sile...@altavista.com> wrote:
> > Frank Wustner wrote:
> > > Dyson <sile...@altavista.com> wrote:
> > > > David Johnston wrote:
>
> > > > > Since anyone who likes anime is an anime fan, someone who dislikes
> > > > > anime fans while liking anime, dislikes theirself.
>
> > > > Actually, this is inaccurate. You *can* like something without
> > > > being a fan. It's a question of intensity. A fan, by definition,
> > > > is a fanatic.
>
> > > I must respecfully disagree with your definition. 'Fan' and 'fanatic'
> > > are not the same thing. They are similar, but different by a matter of
> > > degree. All fanatics are fans, but not all fans are fanatics.
>
> > > Though I dislike "argument by dictionary", I will resort to it this one
> > > time. In my dictionary, one of three definitions for 'fan' is "an
> > > admirer of a sport, passtime, celebrity, etc.". 'Fanatic', however, is
> > > "a person with extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal".
>
> > Unfortunately, you've forgotten that 'fan' is short for
> > 'fanatic', always has been, always will be.
>
> Uh, please don't pretend to be a mind reader. I forgot nothing.
>
> > All the dictionary
> > you used is provide the popular definition and not the root.
>
> FYI, popular meanings are at least as important as the roots.
>
More. The root is often of purely historical interest. For example
I know that the word "awful" originally means "so impressive that
it inspires awe", but knowing that is far less important than knowing
that in the modern day it means "horrible".
David Johnston
>
> 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3C6C8290...@hotmail.com>...
>
> > Except for one thing: It never happened. The thread is dead now, and
> > the "Self fulfilling prophecy" never happened.
>
> Only because you were not flamed as you had expected to be.
>
> > Depends on your tastes, I guess. Speed Racer has all sorts of little
> > things going for it, and I've already explained my Robotech criteria...
> > I think...
>
> There simply is no reasonable criteria by which Speed Racer or
> Robotech could be considered superior to something like Cowboy Bebop
> or Princess Mononoke.
A feature film like Princess Mononoke isn't really a fair comparison.
Superiority aside though, I can easily see liking Robotech better for
not having a downer ending. For all the horrible things that happen
in Robotech, it ends on a note of hope that isn't there in Princess
Mononoke, that the opposing sides do overcome their differences in
a way that never happens in P.M.
>
> > Not really... The only *bad* decade American animation ever really had
> > was the 70s.
>
> The 80's were not particularly bad, they simply were not very good.
>
> > *Shrugs* She-Ra has more intense fight scenes, more varied episodes,
> > and the better transformation sequence of the two.
>
> You have a very vivid imagination.
>
No, I can easily believe that She-Ra had more varied episodes on a day to
day basis. Sailor Moon had a lot of forgettable episodes where the exact
same thing happened this episode that happened last episode except that
this victim was an animator and that victim was a tennisplayer.
Of course Sailor Moon had a lot more episodes, period, than any American
cartoon I know of.
Kagami101
Bitching about anime and anime fans is like spitting in the ocean. It does
absolutely nothing but waste time you could have spent finding another hobby to
get mad about. =D
Todd
Death Chase Ramen
news:3937a132.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > things going for it, and I've already explained my Robotech criteria...
> > I think...
>
> There simply is no reasonable criteria by which Speed Racer or
> Robotech could be considered superior to something like Cowboy Bebop
> or Princess Mononoke.
That's a pretty stupid assumption. IT's all based on opinions and personal
taste in what is good.
Nargun
> 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3C6C8290...@hotmail.com>...
>
> > Except for one thing: It never happened. The thread is dead now, and
> > the "Self fulfilling prophecy" never happened.
>
> Only because you were not flamed as you had expected to be.
>
> > Depends on your tastes, I guess. Speed Racer has all sorts of little
> > things going for it, and I've already explained my Robotech criteria...
> > I think...
>
> There simply is no reasonable criteria by which Speed Racer or
> Robotech could be considered superior to something like Cowboy Bebop
> or Princess Mononoke.
"Suitability for broadcast on US syndicated television in the mid-80s."
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l.patt...@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au
"If you are asked to pass the butter, always remember to pass
the plate as well" - Lennie Lower, "Etiquette without tears"
Fata Morgana
>
> A feature film like Princess Mononoke isn't really a fair comparison.
> Superiority aside though, I can easily see liking Robotech better for
> not having a downer ending. For all the horrible things that happen
> in Robotech, it ends on a note of hope that isn't there in Princess
> Mononoke, that the opposing sides do overcome their differences in
> a way that never happens in P.M.
Say wha...? PM ends on a note of hope. And it ends with all sides
reconciling, to a point. It's just that Miyazaki is something of a
realist; he provides the possibility of true peace, while not blinding
the audience to the fact that human beings are flawed. This's what I
love about Miyazaki's creations - the willingness to look at human
beings "warts and all."
Robotech is enjoyable fluff. I can certainly see someone enjoying it
more than PM. At the same time, it's more than just a matter of taste
to say that PM is higher quality than Robotech, even if you hate the
film. But as you say, it isn't a fair comparison.
Fata Morgana
Bob Macfie
Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> (of course, "homo" means same, so if you insist on sticking to a
> word's roots, all "homophobe" really means is "fear of sameness")
In 1975, the only definition you could find for homophobia
was "Fear of sameness, of monotony." (Monotony - there's
another word people use without considering its origins.)
As you point out, language changes. As long as it's a
living language, of course.
Don't mind me, just committing chronocide. ^_^
Bob Macfie
Ten Years After - I'd Love to Change the World.mp3
> "Arthur Levesque" <meist...@boog.org> wrote in message
> > 8-Bit Star (nes_...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> > 8BS>I'm not talking about anime fans as a whole. I never am. Usually I
> > 8BS>*very specifically* point out one small fraction of the anime fandom
> > 8BS>that bothers me, and take *paragraphs* just to make this clear...
> > 8BS>I *clearly* stated that I was using the TRUE definition of Otaku...
> > The distinction I use is between fans (who like something) and
> > fanboys (who are obsessed and unable to think rationally about the
> > target of their obsession; and take any and all criticism personally).
>
> Why is it you people are able to see this NOW?
You mean after we pancor jackhammered it into their skulls for half a year?
--
Jsoh "Fully Automatic Sustained Fire Carbine Anything" Caebl
http://animehistory.keenspace.com
Giving your command of squadrons Korr and JISSOUGH
Jaws was never my scene
And I don't like Star Wars
chika
Bob Macfie <bobm...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Fish Eye no Miko wrote:
> > (of course, "homo" means same, so if you insist on sticking to a
> > word's roots, all "homophobe" really means is "fear of sameness")
> In 1975, the only definition you could find for homophobia
> was "Fear of sameness, of monotony." (Monotony - there's
> another word people use without considering its origins.)
> As you point out, language changes. As long as it's a
> living language, of course.
Yup. Consider the last line of the old Flintstones theme. Now there's a
line that wouldn't be written now - "We'll have a gay old time!" You just
can't use that word in that context anymore without certain people
sniggering or taking it the wrong way.
Sometimes you can't even use the word "it" without getting a dirty laugh...
--
----- Chika - miy...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\//
----- CrashnetUK - crashnet.org.uk (come.to/arena.essex)
... My hat covers my head.... Just like hair used to!!
Homyguy Z
> Homyguy Z <chay...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > "Doug Jacobs" <dja...@rawbw.com> wrote in message
> > news:u6m32kc...@corp.supernews.com...
> >> 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > 1. THEY ALWAYS OVERGENERALIZE/BASTARDIZE ARGUEMENTS
> >> [200 line diatribe snipped]
> >>
> >> Pot, kettle, black, anyone?
>
> > If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
> > overgeneralization.
>
> So, it's OK to slam a group for overgeneralizing by making an
> overgeneralization yourself?
If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
overgeneralization.
-Homyguy Z
chika
Homyguy Z <chay...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> > > If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
> > > overgeneralization.
> >
> > So, it's OK to slam a group for overgeneralizing by making an
> > overgeneralization yourself?
> If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
> overgeneralization.
...unless the reference is in itself an overgeneralisation... whatever
that is...
Bob Macfie
Well, I do have to raise my eyebrows at people who only
learned one of Tolkien's Elvish languages or Klingon, but
found it "too much work" to learn Spanish, French, or
another language.
The drawback of learning only fictional languages is that
it's unlikely you needed them to properly appreciate
literature. Nothing gets lost in translation from Klingon -
because it was originally expressed in English (as a rule)
thought. The same can't be said of Victor Hugo's works -
translations usually focus too much on what has been said
and not how it's been expressed.
That said, I don't have a problem with Klingon speakers -
mental exercise is mental exercise, even if it doesn't land
you a better job or a date.
Bob Macfie
Homyguy Z
"chika" <miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4b09db4d...@argonet.co.uk...
Well, he obviously considers anime fans to be the kinds of people he
described. The term in itself is a generalization (especially seeing as how
it has no universal meaning, even within an anime group), so there's no
reason anyone should feel insulted just because they like anime. Or even if
someone _did_ consider themselves a fan of anime, it would be by their own
definition and probably not his, so it shouldn't matter.
And either way, he DID say his complaints didn't apply to all anime fans.
Which he really shouldn't have had to say at all.
-Homyguy Z
chika
Bob Macfie <bobm...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > I can certainly understand learning a language for a hobby...after
> > all, how many here are studying Japanese because of anime? To call
> > Klingon students "weird" seems awfully close minded to me.
> Well, I do have to raise my eyebrows at people who only
> learned one of Tolkien's Elvish languages or Klingon, but
> found it "too much work" to learn Spanish, French, or
> another language.
Agreed. I can remember those message boards at festivals where someone
would leave a message in Daerons' Runes or something similar...
Gobsmacked is probably not translatable! :)
--
----- Chika - miy...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\//
----- CrashnetUK - crashnet.org.uk (come.to/arena.essex)
... Doing my part to preserve order in the universe
8-Bit Star
ZoqFotPik wrote:
> 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3C6C8290...@hotmail.com>...
>
> > Except for one thing: It never happened. The thread is dead now, and
> > the "Self fulfilling prophecy" never happened.
>
> Only because you were not flamed as you had expected to be.
>
> > Depends on your tastes, I guess. Speed Racer has all sorts of little
> > things going for it, and I've already explained my Robotech criteria...
> > I think...
>
> There simply is no reasonable criteria by which Speed Racer or
> Robotech could be considered superior to something like Cowboy Bebop
> or Princess Mononoke.
I never said they were, now, did I?
>
>
> > Not really... The only *bad* decade American animation ever really had
> > was the 70s.
>
> The 80's were not particularly bad, they simply were not very good.
The 80s was just as good as the 90s, it simply had a different set of standards.
>
>
> > *Shrugs* She-Ra has more intense fight scenes, more varied episodes,
> > and the better transformation sequence of the two.
>
> You have a very vivid imagination.
One of these days I'm going to have a complete set of episodes, as well.
>
>
> > I think that's pretty much Filmation's main claim to fame. They at least
> > had some clever writers (Well, He-Man did... She-Ra had the Amazing
> > Technicolor War-Torn World).
>
> No, Filmation's cartoon were not particularly well written either.
True, but they did pull some interesting shit every once in awhile. They at
least were focused.
David Johnston
>
> "chika" <miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4b09db4d...@argonet.co.uk..
> > Homyguy Z <chay...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > > If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
> > > > > overgeneralization.
> > > >
> > > > So, it's OK to slam a group for overgeneralizing by making an
> > > > overgeneralization yourself?
> >
> > > If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
> > > overgeneralization.
> >
> > ...unless the reference is in itself an overgeneralisation... whatever
> > that is...
>
> Well, he obviously considers anime fans to be the kinds of people he
> described. The term in itself is a generalization (especially seeing as how
> it has no universal meaning, even within an anime group)
Actually we pretty much all said that anime fans are people who like anime
a lot. But don't worry, we really appreciate your efforts to murkify the
obfuscation.
, so there's no
> reason anyone should feel insulted just because they like anime. Or even if
> someone _did_ consider themselves a fan of anime, it would be by their own
> definition and probably not his, so it shouldn't matter.
Right. So if someone insults white people but defines "white people"
as "Germans who slap people with mackeral" then nobody who isn't a German
slaps people with mackerel should feel insulted when he claims that
all white people slap people with mackeral. Right?
8-Bit Star
ZoqFotPik wrote:
[First off, excuse me if there's two replies to this--I tried to Cancel the
other one, but I've noticed the "Cancel" command in Netscape's Newsgroup
browser tends to not work as well as I would hope]
> 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3C6C8290...@hotmail.com>...
>
> > Except for one thing: It never happened. The thread is dead now, and
> > the "Self fulfilling prophecy" never happened.
>
> Only because you were not flamed as you had expected to be.
Exactly.
>
>
> > Depends on your tastes, I guess. Speed Racer has all sorts of little
> > things going for it, and I've already explained my Robotech criteria...
> > I think...
>
> There simply is no reasonable criteria by which Speed Racer or
> Robotech could be considered superior to something like Cowboy Bebop
> or Princess Mononoke.
I never said they were.
>
>
> > Not really... The only *bad* decade American animation ever really had
> > was the 70s.
>
> The 80's were not particularly bad, they simply were not very good.
No, they were good, but for different reasons. You can't judge 80s toons
by 90s standards. That's about as reasonable as expecting an SNES game
to have PS2 graphics.
>
>
> > *Shrugs* She-Ra has more intense fight scenes, more varied episodes,
> > and the better transformation sequence of the two.
>
> You have a very vivid imagination.
Actually, the "More varied" part at least *is* true, since Sailor Moon works
on a formula and She-Ra doesn't.
>
>
> > I think that's pretty much Filmation's main claim to fame. They at least
> > had some clever writers (Well, He-Man did... She-Ra had the Amazing
> > Technicolor War-Torn World).
>
> No, Filmation's cartoon were not particularly well written either.
Given their aim and limitations on the medium at the time, yes they were. The
only company that did better at the time was Sunbow (and then they had the
advantage of being a devision of Marvel Comics).
Nargun
To end a civil war, the spanish army once agreed to accept all officers
from both sides; at one stage, there was one generel for every 163
privates, I believe. Or it could have been "enlisted men"; possibly
"non-generals", but I don't think so.
*That's* overgeneralisation. Don't see what it's got to do with the topic,
though.
chika
<Pine.OSF.4.10.102021...@cassius.its.unimelb.edu.au>,
Nargun <lou...@student.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> To end a civil war, the spanish army once agreed to accept all officers
> from both sides; at one stage, there was one generel for every 163
> privates, I believe. Or it could have been "enlisted men"; possibly
> "non-generals", but I don't think so.
LOL
> *That's* overgeneralisation. Don't see what it's got to do with the
> topic, though.
Possibly that this whole business of analysing anime fans, otaku or
whatever folks wish to call ppl who like anime is becoming almost as
boring as those guys last year who were continually searching for issues
of sexuality in anime. It's one of the less interesting parts of this
group that occasionally drives me elsewhere; the intense amount of navel
gazing...
And now, Radio 4 will explode. ^_^
--
----- Chika - miy...@argonet.co.uk IRCnet#anime MMW CAPOW ZFC/A
//\//
----- CrashnetUK - crashnet.org.uk (come.to/arena.essex)
... (((((YOU)))))((((ARE))))((((((FEELING))))))(((((SLEEPY)))))
Homyguy Z
> Homyguy Z wrote:
> >
> > "chika" <miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:4b09db4d...@argonet.co.uk..
> > > In article <3qyb8.2385$nr.23...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>,
> > > Homyguy Z <chay...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > > > If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
> > > > > > overgeneralization.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, it's OK to slam a group for overgeneralizing by making an
> > > > > overgeneralization yourself?
> > >
> > > > If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
> > > > overgeneralization.
> > >
> > > ...unless the reference is in itself an overgeneralisation... whatever
> > > that is...
> >
> > Well, he obviously considers anime fans to be the kinds of people he
> > described. The term in itself is a generalization (especially seeing as
how
> > it has no universal meaning, even within an anime group)
>
> Actually we pretty much all said that anime fans are people who like anime
> a lot. But don't worry, we really appreciate your efforts to murkify the
> obfuscation.
In other words, bringing to light the possibility that your definition of an
'anime fan' might not be the only one.
> , so there's no
> > reason anyone should feel insulted just because they like anime. Or even
if
> > someone _did_ consider themselves a fan of anime, it would be by their
own
> > definition and probably not his, so it shouldn't matter.
>
> Right. So if someone insults white people but defines "white people"
> as "Germans who slap people with mackeral" then nobody who isn't a German
> slaps people with mackerel should feel insulted when he claims that
> all white people slap people with mackeral. Right?
This would make sense if 'white person' was a self-defined term. No one is
an 'anime fan' at birth, and as a "title", it only refers to a person's
interests and not any kind of physical description. In other words, being a
white person is a definite label while being an anime fan is an indefinite
label. Besides, since the term has no clear definition and is only a
self-given "title", those who felt insulted at 8-bit's post or felt the need
to angrily point out things he had _already taken the time to clarify IN THE
RANT_ were really just being oversensitive.
-Homyguy Z
David Johnston
>
> "David Johnston" <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> news:3C6EE4...@telusplanet.net..
> > >
> > > "chika" <miy...@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:4b09db4d...@argonet.co.uk.
> > > > Homyguy Z <chay...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
> > > > > > > overgeneralization.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, it's OK to slam a group for overgeneralizing by making an
> > > > > > overgeneralization yourself?
> > > >
> > > > > If he's referring to the people who do that, then it's not an
> > > > > overgeneralization.
> > > >
> > > > ...unless the reference is in itself an overgeneralisation... whatever
> > > > that is...
> > >
> > > Well, he obviously considers anime fans to be the kinds of people he
> > > described. The term in itself is a generalization (especially seeing as
> how
> > > it has no universal meaning, even within an anime group)
> >
> > Actually we pretty much all said that anime fans are people who like anime
> > a lot. But don't worry, we really appreciate your efforts to murkify the
> > obfuscation.
>
> In other words, bringing to light the possibility that your definition of an
> 'anime fan' might not be the only one.
<Shrug> Doesn't matter. If you are going around insulting people it's your
responsibility to choose an unambiguous descriptor of who you want to insult,
unless of course you don't care who you insult, just as long as you get to
insult someone.
> > Right. So if someone insults white people but defines "white people"
> > as "Germans who slap people with mackeral" then nobody who isn't a German
> > slaps people with mackerel should feel insulted when he claims that
> > all white people slap people with mackeral. Right?
>
> This would make sense if 'white person' was a self-defined term.
It is. Oh other people may reject your self-identification as white
or non-white because you don't fit their criteria for whiteness, but there
are plenty of people who define themselves as white despite having an
American Indian grandfather or a great grandmother from Africa. The
only really white people are albinos.
No one is
> an 'anime fan' at birth, and as a "title", it only refers to a person's
> interests and not any kind of physical description.
How do you know that? I mean we can make up any definition we want for
anime fan, right? You know what I hate about anime fans? It's their
incredibly long noses. All anime fans have incredibly long noses because
I have just defined "anime fan" as a person who has an extended honker.
In other words, being a
> white person is a definite label while being an anime fan is an indefinite
> label. Besides, since the term has no clear definition and is only a
> self-given "title", those who felt insulted at 8-bit's post or felt the need
> to angrily point out things he had _already taken the time to clarify IN THE
> RANT_ were really just being oversensitive.
Nobody felt insulted at 8-bit's post that I am aware of.
ZoqFotPik
> I never said they were.
You implied that you resented it when "otaku" reccomended the latest
and greatest to you and implied that you were satisfied with watching
things like Speed Racer and Robotech.
> No, they were good, but for different reasons. You can't judge 80s toons
> by 90s standards.
In terms of script and content, I most certainly can.
> Actually, the "More varied" part at least *is* true, since Sailor Moon works
> on a formula and She-Ra doesn't.
She-Ra was not formulaic? Again, you have a very vivid imagination...
> Given their aim and limitations on the medium at the time, yes they were.
Their aim was no ecuse for poor writing, nor was there anything about
the medium that would limit their writers.
Kristopher Means
> I thought that "Otaku" litterally translated means, "Nerd"?
According to my friend in Shin Yokohama, to this day the word "otaku" is
still closely associated with Tsutomu Miyazaki, who (if you don't recall)
kidnapped, raped, tortured, and dismembered 4 young girls in 1989. I mean,
he's like the Japanese Jeffrey Dalmer.
So while these self-styled American "otaku" love using that term referring
to themselves because they think they know *so* much about Japanese culture
and society, they are actually blissfully ignorant about the Japanese label
they choose for themselves. How ironic.
-- Kris
kmeans AT mindspring DOT com
"There is something to be said about geeks who know they are geeks.
People who are self-aware about their place in the world possess, at
the least, a sense of humor. Anime fans and computer nerds fall into
this category. Goth people and Renaissance festival fanatics do not."
http://www.houstonpress.com/issues/2001-08-02/feature.html
sk...@goddos.net
>
> According to my friend in Shin Yokohama, to this day the word "otaku" is
> still closely associated with Tsutomu Miyazaki, who (if you don't recall)
> kidnapped, raped, tortured, and dismembered 4 young girls in 1989. I mean,
> he's like the Japanese Jeffrey Dalmer.
>
> So while these self-styled American "otaku" love using that term referring
> to themselves because they think they know *so* much about Japanese culture
> and society, they are actually blissfully ignorant about the Japanese label
> they choose for themselves. How ironic.
Or, alternatively, they know about all the negative connotations of the word and
choose to use it anyway, because they feel it doesn't apply to them in the same
manner. Such is the nature of loanwords. The truest Japanese definition is
either "house" or "residence" (in a very formal manner), more broadly speaking,
the term applies to anyone who is a hard-core fan of something (not just anime.)
Americans will tend to just use it to refer to anime fans, though.
Also, some groups of people will embrace a negative label wholeheartedly.
Eventually, it takes away the sting that could be associated with it. What you
may not know is that there have been _Japanese_ anime fans who have referred to
themselves as "otaku" since the Miyazaki (who isn't related to Hayao Miyazaki)
incident. IIRC, a number of them even got T-shirts that said "Otaku" in English
a while back.
> -- Kris
Damien Roc
David Johnston
> So while these self-styled American "otaku" love using that term referring
> to themselves because they think they know *so* much about Japanese culture
> and society, they are actually blissfully ignorant about the Japanese label
> they choose for themselves. How ironic.
So you don't know the difference between not knowing and not caring?
Metlhd3138
limited to Anime.
8-Bit Star
ZoqFotPik wrote:
> 8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3C6F357E...@hotmail.com>...
>
> > I never said they were.
>
> You implied that you resented it when "otaku" reccomended the latest
> and greatest to you and implied that you were satisfied with watching
> things like Speed Racer and Robotech.
No, I said they'd condescend to you if you told them you liked either of
those, and that then they'd try to get you to watch something more well-liked.
Besides, being "satisfied" and thinking those are superior are two different
things altogether.
>
>
> > No, they were good, but for different reasons. You can't judge 80s toons
> > by 90s standards.
>
> In terms of script and content, I most certainly can.
Content is a definate maybe, since there were things that just weren't allowed
back then (and even more things were just then being thought of).
As for script... I guess that would have to depend on what makes a good script.
>
>
> > Actually, the "More varied" part at least *is* true, since Sailor Moon works
> > on a formula and She-Ra doesn't.
>
> She-Ra was not formulaic? Again, you have a very vivid imagination...
"Formulaic" would imply that the same thing happens every episode. Sailor Moon,
Inspector Gadget, and Scooby Doo are all good examples of this. If you think
She-Ra had 93 episodes, a movie, and a special that all had the exact same plot,
you probably haven't seen that much of it.
>
>
> > Given their aim and limitations on the medium at the time, yes they were.
>
> Their aim was no ecuse for poor writing, nor was there anything about
> the medium that would limit their writers.
Sure there was, a lot of things you see in cartoons today just weren't allowed
in cartoons back then.
As for their aim--You seem to think "Bad writing" is any show that doesn't
have a complex, serialized plotline (judging by our previous conversations).
That's not what Filmation was out to create. They just wanted to create a
series of heroic adventures, and that they did quite well.
sk...@goddos.net
>
> > > Actually, the "More varied" part at least *is* true, since Sailor Moon works
> > > on a formula and She-Ra doesn't.
> >
> > She-Ra was not formulaic? Again, you have a very vivid imagination...
>
> "Formulaic" would imply that the same thing happens every episode. Sailor Moon,
> Inspector Gadget, and Scooby Doo are all good examples of this. If you think
> She-Ra had 93 episodes, a movie, and a special that all had the exact same plot,
> you probably haven't seen that much of it.
If you think that the many episodes, movies, and whatnot of Sailormoon all had
the same plot, you probably haven't seen much of it, either.
While I haven't seen ALL of Sailor Moon, I have seen all of S, and while there
are a startling number of episodes that follow the same plot structure, there
are more than a few that have a different progression.
Damien Roc
Death Chase Ramen
Double Standards again. On the same level I'm sure that shows like She-Ra
are just as diverse if not original in some instances in their time. So
much today is just a big rip off of that which has already come.