How do you know if you like a series or not?
Sean Abbey
Maybe I am not a jaded Viewer But I have never seen an anime video I
have not liked, Well Except E.Y.E.S. of Mars. I liked the movie Dune, I
think I might be the only person who does, Or it might be I think I like
it and actually do not, It takes quite a bit to make me not like
something.
So my question is how do you tell if you do not like a series? Is it
the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
I want to become more selective, So if you have any suggestions on how
to look at the videos more subjective, I would be grateful, Actually the
same thing goes for the music.
I was looking at the posts of most pathetic anime and quite a bit of
them I have and like or at least think I like, For example I like
Iczelion, Samurai Shodown, Ninja Scroll, And some other ones listed, so
it got me thinking do I actually like these programs.
Sean Abbey.
So if any of you want to tell me your method of choosing Videos, I
would be grateful.
Daniel Miles
> This might sound stupid But I have a question I would like to ask,
>Maybe I am not a jaded Viewer But I have never seen an anime video I
>have not liked, Well Except E.Y.E.S. of Mars. I liked the movie Dune,
Urrk! You're a sick, sick man...
>
> So my question is how do you tell if you do not like a series? Is it
>the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
>subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
>
The characters and plot are the most important to me. Good animation helps
too, although now that I think about it, most of my favorite anime series
don't have stellar animation. What they do have is likable or interesting
characters with lots of character development throughout the series. A
little humor is good as well, even in serious shows.
I try to give most shows a decent chance (4-6 episodes, a little longer
for shojo and magical girl anime) to see if I like it. However, I've
generally found that I either like a show from the get go, or I never
really enjoy it. In other words, I've never seen a series where I starting
liking it somewhere in the middle. Usually it's the other way around. I
really enjoy a series for awhile (the first season, usually), then the
show goes downhill, and I lose interest. Examples: Marmalade Boy and
Fushigi Yuugi.
This is the main reason I like 26 episode single season series. There's
not enough time for the show to go to pot, where you start to get "filler"
episodes and increasingly poorer animation.
Daniel Miles
miles_...@hotmail.com
Disruptor
>
> This might sound stupid But I have a question I would like to ask,
> Maybe I am not a jaded Viewer But I have never seen an anime video I
> think I might be the only person who does, Or it might be I think I like
> it and actually do not, It takes quite a bit to make me not like
> something.
>
> the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
> subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
>
> to look at the videos more subjective, I would be grateful, Actually the
> same thing goes for the music.
You have to judge each anime by your own interests.
For example, I like Dangaio, but dislike Ninja Scroll.
There are people who think Ninja Scroll is one of the best animes.
There are people who think Dangaio is the lamest anime.
Those are subjective opinions based on how an induvidual thinks. Find
what you like and stick with it. Figure out what you don't ike and stay
away from it.
Frank Wustner
> So my question is how do you tell if you do not like a series? Is it
> the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
> subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
For me it is a combination of plot and genre, with a little
bit of sud/dub dialogue thrown in. Myself, I like a plot
with at least a bit of intelligence to it. Straight, no-
holds-barred action shows (eg. Gundum) bore me to tears.
But I can kinda forgive that if the show in question is a
genera that I like a lot. I prefer fantasy shows. So, for
example, I like "Record of the Lodoss War" quite a bit, even
though its plot is about as weak and uninspired as the
Gundum series.
But on top of all that, poor subbing/dubbing can ruin even
the best shows. Lately I've been watching the Hecto fansubs
of "Ruroni Kenshen", and the translation is really horrid.
The subtitles make me think that the subbers translated each
Japanese word directly into English without actually trying
to make grammatical English sentences. A translitteration
rather than a translation. I like the show inspite of that.
But there are times when the translation is so painfully bad
that I have trouble continuing to watch it.
--
The Deadly Nightshade
http://members.tripod.com/~deadly_nightshade
|-----------------------------------|
|"I, too, believe in fate... |
|the fate a man makes for himself." |
|Lord Soth ("Time of the Twins") |
|-----------------------------------|
| niteshade(at)mindspring(dot)com |
|-----------------------------------|
TC Nguyen
Sean Abbey wrote:
>
>
> I want to become more selective, So if you have any suggestions on how
> to look at the videos more subjective, I would be grateful, Actually the
> same thing goes for the music.
>
--
So far, you have received many responses on why liking an anime is a
matter of personal preference. You should take this to heart. My
question to you is why would you want to be more selective in what you
like. Its great that you like almost everything you see, because it
means you are less judgemental than other people. Never let otakus
pressure you in what you should see and like; and never be ashame of
what you do like. Instead of wondering why you like something, thumb
your nose at those who don't see enjoyment in what you see.
** TC Nguyen **
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right
to say it"
- Voltaire
Sean Abbey
TC Nguyen wrote:
I just wanted to say thanks for responding to my post, I guess I thought if
I knew how other people come to a decision I could figure if the way I do it
is the way most normal people do.
To be honest I could care less what other people think of me and what I like,
I for one like Sailor Moon, Pokemon, The Guyver, Robotech, Bio-Hunter and many
others, And if you don't like it, So what as long as I like it.
I Just wanted to know how other people come to their decision of liking a
series or not liking it, I can pretty much sit through any anime you could
throw at me and most likely than not, I would like it, Not all the time, But
most of the time I do, Is that normal, Is that a gift, Is that strange, I
don't Know. I think my problem is I am indecisive and don't really think that
much of the plot, Voices or any thing else except what I see and hear.
And I'm trying to think about what I am seeing and hearing, And what it means
to me, I have yet to see Evangelion, Which I want to get the full experience
of watching it, Rather than watch it and then forget what I saw.
I hope that explains what I am trying to say.
Thanks Again.
Sean Abbey.
Clarise451
>Maybe I am not a jaded Viewer But I have never seen an anime video I
>have not liked, Well Except E.Y.E.S. of Mars. I liked the movie Dune, I
>think I might be the only person who does, Or it might be I think I like
>it and actually do not, It takes quite a bit to make me not like
>something.
>
>the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
>subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
>
>to look at the videos more subjective, I would be grateful, Actually the
>same thing goes for the music.
>
>them I have and like or at least think I like, For example I like
>Iczelion, Samurai Shodown, Ninja Scroll, And some other ones listed, so
>it got me thinking do I actually like these programs.
>
> Sean Abbey.
>
> So if any of you want to tell me your method of choosing Videos, I
>would be grateful.
Well, personally, I generally like anime based on a combination of factors--the
story and characters are especially important, and good animation and music
helps too.
But I'm kind of curious as to why one would want to like *less* anime. I, too,
have never seen an anime that I've genuinely disliked, but then again, I pick
and choose what to watch pretty carefully and avoid entires genres. I like
some stuff that is considered very mediocre by lots and lots of people. I like
magical girl shows, and I genuinely can't find anything wrong with Fushigi
Yuugi. I know my tastes aren't exactly intellectual, and I *like* it that way.
After all, if I were to become so selective that I could dislike every anime I
bought, where would the fun be?
My tastes definitely don't run towards Iczelion, Samurai Showdown, Ninja
Scroll, etc, but if you like them, good for you.
-The Sewing Minion
Enrique Conty
This is much better than going through tons of material,
only to find out you didn't like ANY of it. >_<;;
Believe me, you should consider yourself lucky that you can
see the good in everything you see.
> I was looking at the posts of most pathetic anime and quite a bit of
>them I have and like or at least think I like, For example I like
>Iczelion, Samurai Shodown, Ninja Scroll
Well, that's fine. Every one of the above has its merits.
Don't let some loser tell you what you *should* or *shouldn't* like.
Use YOUR own mind. And enjoy the pretty picture show. ^_^
--
E n r i q u e C o n t y
co...@enteract.com
Prepare for trouble! And make it double!
http://www.enteract.com/~conty/
Animeg3282
> So my question is how do you tell if you do not like a series? Is it
>the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
>subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
the chracters play the biggest part and the plots are second. why? if I don't
care about what happens to the chracters,I'm not going to be interested and if
nothing interesting happpens I'm not going to like it.
Chisa Tori
Co-defender of the Scouts, AOL, and Relm
AGFF Goddess and Guru of Cute, Diminutive Mistress of Leather and Lace, and of
Small Words
Yaoi Brigade Member
"Let's live our lives heroicaly;let's live them with style"-"Revolution" Utena
OP
Andrew Chen
preferences. I don't know anyone who likes a certain series only because of
the animation, music, etc. It's usually a varying degree of all aspects. I
tend to focus on chracter more than anything else, though.
Being extremely prejudiced, I decide whether I like a series or not very
quickly. Most other people will watch lots of episodes before deciding
whether a series is good or not.
--
Remove the '.abc' from my address to reply.
--
"Every finger in the room is pointing at me. I wanna spit in their faces.
Then I get afraid what that could bring." - Tori Amos ("Crucify")
Sean Abbey <sab...@postoffice.pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:36981472...@postoffice.pacbell.net...
> This might sound stupid But I have a question I would like to ask,
>Maybe I am not a jaded Viewer But I have never seen an anime video I
>have not liked, Well Except E.Y.E.S. of Mars. I liked the movie Dune, I
>think I might be the only person who does, Or it might be I think I like
>it and actually do not, It takes quite a bit to make me not like
>something.
>
> So my question is how do you tell if you do not like a series? Is it
>the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
>subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
>
> I want to become more selective, So if you have any suggestions on how
>to look at the videos more subjective, I would be grateful, Actually the
>same thing goes for the music.
>
> I was looking at the posts of most pathetic anime and quite a bit of
>them I have and like or at least think I like, For example I like
Troy Needoba
I really don't like bad voice actors, although that won't make me
dislike the series, I'll just swich to the subtitles(I didn't like
Ryoko's voice in Tenchi). I like funny series and I don't like stupid
characters. The story isn't too important, I like plenty of movies
without good stories, especially if it is really funny. That's one of
the omst important things to me anyways. But I do like non-comedy films
like Ninja Scroll and Undead Yoma.
--
Troy <tnee...@home.com>
Visit my anime webpage! Send me comments and suggestions.
http://members.home.net/otakuanime/index.htm
Paul Lampshire
>Or it might be I think I like
>it and actually do not, It takes quite a bit to make me not like
>something.
Well I've thought the same myself. And in the end I thought... Sod it.
I mean as long as you *enjoy* something it doesn't matter whether you
*really* like it or just think you do. And to be quite honest it'll take
somebody far more intelligent than me to explain the difference.
I mean. I like cheese. When I eat cheese I enjoy it. If somebody was to tell
me that I don't really like cheese, I just think I do...
--
God's in His heaven, all's right with the world.
Paul Lampshire
>them I have and like or at least think I like, For example I like
>Iczelion, Samurai Shodown, Ninja Scroll, And some other ones listed, so
>it got me thinking do I actually like these programs.
Just because other people hate a show, even if everybody hated it, doesn't
make it bad. It doesn't mean that you can't genuinely like it. You could
equally ask do these people *really* dislike it, or do they just think they
do because everybody else does...
Animeg3282
> I Just wanted to know how other people come to their decision of liking a
>series or not liking it, I can pretty much sit through any anime you could
>throw at me and most likely than not, I would like it, Not all the time, But
>most of the time I do, Is that normal, Is that a gift, Is that strange, I
>don't Know.
I think it's a gift! If you can like most things you don;t have to spend time
hating them. ;)
Duo Maxwell
Frank Wustner wrote in message ...
>sab...@pacbell.net wrote:
>
>> So my question is how do you tell if you do not like a series? Is it
>> the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
>> subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
>
>bit of sud/dub dialogue thrown in. Myself, I like a plot
>with at least a bit of intelligence to it. Straight, no-
>holds-barred action shows (eg. Gundum) bore me to tears.
>But I can kinda forgive that if the show in question is a
>genera that I like a lot. I prefer fantasy shows. So, for
>example, I like "Record of the Lodoss War" quite a bit, even
>though its plot is about as weak and uninspired as the
>Gundum series.
And I for example, think Mobile Suit Gundam is one of the BEST anime series
out there,
being more creative, intelligent, and well thought out than just about
anything else out there.
"Little kids shouldn't see people killing each other."
-Amuro Ray
Arnold Kim
>
> This might sound stupid But I have a question I would like to ask,
> Maybe I am not a jaded Viewer But I have never seen an anime video I
> have not liked, Well Except E.Y.E.S. of Mars. I liked the movie Dune, I
> it and actually do not, It takes quite a bit to make me not like
> something.
More power to you- you get more fun out of things, then.^_^
> So my question is how do you tell if you do not like a series? Is it
> the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
> subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
Easy. Music: if you see it as inappropriate or annoying, that's a mark against
it. Animation: low frame rate, use of "stock" footage, unappealing designs.
Dialog- stuff that's corny, cliched, or unnatural sounding (as in something
no normal speaker would say) . Plot- this is a biggie, and there are a lot of
places you could go here. Originality vs. Cliches, innovative twists vs.
predictability, cheap last minute developments that put everything
together, etc. Genre is completely personal tastes, so I can't help you there.
These are just a few of the grounds on which you could dislike a movie.
You can't explain further in detail than that, though, because it depends on
personal opinion. There are so many ways to dislike a movie, and it's
completely up to you to decide why.
> I want to become more selective, So if you have any suggestions on how
> to look at the videos more subjective, I would be grateful, Actually the
> same thing goes for the music.
Why change, though? This way, by liking almost every anime you see, you
don't waste as much time or money as other anime fans do that have spent
$20-30 on some OAV that was disappointing.
> I was looking at the posts of most pathetic anime and quite a bit of
> them I have and like or at least think I like, For example I like
> Iczelion, Samurai Shodown, Ninja Scroll, And some other ones listed, so
> it got me thinking do I actually like these programs.
Don't let other people's opinions change yours. If you hold a view that's
unpopular, that's no reason to think differently. I hold some opinions on
anime that a lot of people disagree with- The El Hazard dub isn't all that
great, Gall Force vol. 1 is boring, found Dangaio and Appleseed to be
somewhat entertaining, and I really enjoyed Ninja Scroll as well as Fatal
Fury and Street Fighter II. I'm not changing any of my opinions.
Unless you want to work in the film or anime industry, staying less
selective is probably better for you.
> Sean Abbey.
>
> So if any of you want to tell me your method of choosing Videos, I
> would be grateful.
There's no "method"- it completely depends on the individual's tastes.
Arnold Kim
owns a copy of Dangaio vol. 1
Arnold Kim
>
> I Just wanted to know how other people come to their decision of liking a
> series or not liking it, I can pretty much sit through any anime you could
The answer's easy. Just look at yourself- you admit you hated E.Y.E.S. of
Mars. Why did you hate it? Wha made you come to that conclusion?
Also, whenever you like an anime, ask yourself, why do you like that
anime? What parts of it appeal to you?
> throw at me and most likely than not, I would like it, Not all the time, But
> most of the time I do, Is that normal, Is that a gift, Is that strange, I
> don't Know. I think my problem is I am indecisive and don't really think that
> much of the plot, Voices or any thing else except what I see and hear.
That's what you should do- think about the various elements and exactly
why you like them.
> And I'm trying to think about what I am seeing and hearing, And what it means
> to me, I have yet to see Evangelion, Which I want to get the full experience
> of watching it, Rather than watch it and then forget what I saw.
Then you should keep doing that- thinking about it, that is. Or what you
could do is read other people's detailed reviews and see if they ring true for
you, even though you may not have realized it before. Keep doing this- I
used to be like you, and now have gained some degree of credibility, even
writing online movie reviews now.
Arnold Kim
check him out on rec.arts.movies.reviews
mp
> the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
> subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
Well, it's probably all of the above, but the thing I consider most
important is... "does the show have emotional impact?" When something bad
happens to the characters, and you start shedding tears, that's when you
know it's good. You're happy when the characters are happy. You cry when
they cry.
But another thing I take into account is the fact that I've seen a bunch
of anime. I am kinda newbie-ish in how long I've been an anime fan(about
2 years). But I've seen more anime than most so-called-veterans. Thus
when a series like Fushigi Yuugi comes up, or that piece of crap Nadesico,
or whatever that "fandom" thinks is the best thing in the world, I watch
it and think "I've seen better." So while FY may not be that bad of an
anime, I don't consider it a "good" anime because compared to the other
stuff I've seen, it doesn't offer much that's new.
As for watching Eva specifically, well, I can't say much cuz I've only
seen the first 8 eps. But I know it's a series you have to watch at least
twice because you don't know what to look for the first time around.
-mp
Wayne C. Morris
> This might sound stupid But I have a question I would like to ask,
[snip]
> So my question is how do you tell if you do not like a series?
>
> Is it the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
> subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
"I don't know much about Art, but I know what I like."
If you watch it and you still don't know whether you like it or not,
you've got serious problems.
But it sounds like your real question is "How do you know, before you've
watched it, whether you're likely to enjoy a particular series?"
My answer: Experience.
I do it the same way I pick movies, comics & books: I look at the ads,
read reviews, flip through a few pages, read the descriptions on the
back cover, etc. I also consider whether it's by a favorite author or
artist, a video adaptation of a previously read book or comic, etc.
After many years of practice, I can get a pretty good idea of whether
I'll enjoy it. Sometimes I'm wrong, but usually I'm happy with my
choices.
With anime, whether it's sub or dub or dual format will influence my
decision, but it's never the only factor in picking or rejecting a
series.
Borrowing, renting, or buying the first tape is a great way to check out
a series that I'm not sure about; if I don't like it, I've only wasted a
small amount of money, and if I like it I'll buy the LDs or DVDs.
Music is more difficult. There are a few artists & composers whose work
I'll buy automatically, but otherwise I have to hear the music first,
usually by having seen the movie/show/anime that it's from. (I don't
listen to the radio and don't watch music videos because I don't like
most of the stuff they play).
> I want to become more selective, So if you have any suggestions on how
> to look at the videos more subjective, I would be grateful, Actually the
> same thing goes for the music.
If you really do enjoy almost everything you've ever seen, why should
you worry about being selective? The only possible advice I could give
you is to think about your absolute favorites and what they have in
common or what it was you liked about them. Then look for anime that
has those elements.
raul
enjoy it. And if it has both a nice story AND etchi scenes, well...
that's about as good as it gets. =)
This is why I consider Akahori Satoru to be the master...
m(raul)m
Maze! Maze! Maze!
Sean Abbey
mp wrote:
> > So my question is how do you tell if you do not like a series? Is it
> > the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
> > subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
>
> Well, it's probably all of the above, but the thing I consider most
> important is... "does the show have emotional impact?" When something bad
> happens to the characters, and you start shedding tears, that's when you
> know it's good. You're happy when the characters are happy. You cry when
> they cry.
>
I know what you mean, When ever I see Roy Fokker's Death in Robotech, And
the Scene where Lisa tells Rick that his Big brother has Died, Really gets me,
Just thinking about it now as I write is getting me also.
The Same goes when Max and Mira get married, But this time it is not sadness
but happiness. I also love the ending to episode 36 of Macross, When Rick and
Lisa finally tell each other how they feel for each other, I like the scene
better in the Macross movie, But here it still is a good scene.
> But another thing I take into account is the fact that I've seen a bunch
> of anime. I am kinda newbie-ish in how long I've been an anime fan(about
> 2 years). But I've seen more anime than most so-called-veterans. Thus
> when a series like Fushigi Yuugi comes up, or that piece of crap Nadesico,
> or whatever that "fandom" thinks is the best thing in the world, I watch
> it and think "I've seen better." So while FY may not be that bad of an
> anime, I don't consider it a "good" anime because compared to the other
> stuff I've seen, it doesn't offer much that's new.
>
> As for watching Eva specifically, well, I can't say much cuz I've only
> seen the first 8 eps. But I know it's a series you have to watch at least
> twice because you don't know what to look for the first time around.
>
> -mp
Thanks for replying.
Sean Abbey.
Sean Abbey
mp wrote:
> > So my question is how do you tell if you do not like a series? Is it
> > the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
> > subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
>
> Well, it's probably all of the above, but the thing I consider most
> important is... "does the show have emotional impact?" When something bad
> happens to the characters, and you start shedding tears, that's when you
> know it's good. You're happy when the characters are happy. You cry when
> they cry.
>
I know what you mean, When ever I see Roy Fokker's death in Robotech, And
when lisa tells Rick that his big brother has died, Man, That really gets me,
Just thinking about it now, Is getting to me, Even though the same scene is
more so in the movie, I also love the ending to episode 36 of Macross, When
Rick and Lisa finally tell each other how they feel for each other, I like
the scenes better in the movie for both Roy's death and Rick and Lisa's
revelation, But the same Scenes in the TV versions are good too, Even though I
never did understand Roy's death in the Robotech version, His death in the
movie makes more sense, But the TV one does not, for me at least.
The Same goes when Max and Mira get married, In the TV series, But that is
not sadness, It is happiness, And then there is the death of Ben Dixion, I
always liked that character, So that is Sad also, Not as much as Roy's Death,
But still up there.
> But another thing I take into account is the fact that I've seen a bunch
> of anime. I am kinda newbie-ish in how long I've been an anime fan(about
> 2 years). But I've seen more anime than most so-called-veterans. Thus
> when a series like Fushigi Yuugi comes up, or that piece of crap Nadesico,
> or whatever that "fandom" thinks is the best thing in the world, I watch
> it and think "I've seen better." So while FY may not be that bad of an
> anime, I don't consider it a "good" anime because compared to the other
> stuff I've seen, it doesn't offer much that's new.
>
> As for watching Eva specifically, well, I can't say much cuz I've only
> seen the first 8 eps. But I know it's a series you have to watch at least
> twice because you don't know what to look for the first time around.
>
> -mp
Thanks for replying to post.
Sean Abbey.
Bryth27
>the music, animation, dialog, plots, Characters and maybe if it is
>subbed or dubbed, Or perhaps the genre.
Well, for me, there are a number of factors. Great music and appealing
characters usually pique my interest in a show. You'll notice that a lot of
series will try to draw you in this way or maybe with an over-the-top first
episode. Video Girl Ai is a great example of this. I don't think I would have
gotten into it if the entire series had the tone of the final 2 volumes. (I
prefer happier, sillier, funnier anime.) Once I sit down to watch the show, if
the story can't hold my interest, that's it.
Actually, I have the same perception as you. There are very few anime/movies
that I have seen which I did not like. The reason for this though, is that if I
don't think I will like it for whatever reason (genre, character design,
content, etc), I won't bother with it. There's gotta be some tape on the
shelves that you just say "I don't think so" to. If you have trouble deciding,
try limiting yourself to "gotta haves" or favorites, and pass on those which
just seem OK.
Good luck.
Ijou.
Big Bry
M Arnold
It's a decision. You decide if you like something or not. In U.S. anime
fandom it's usually pretty arbitrary. Or at least the decision has very
little to do with the show itself.
Hopefully as people gain experience they will become pickier, learn a
little about the topic, choose to like fewer things, and require better
justification for their choices. Often this doesn't happen, though.
...usually it doesn't. In the last couple of nights I've watched several
episodes of a fan-produced public access TV program dealing with anime &
anime reviews. While low-profile, mediocre titles such as Bubblegum
Crisis and Vampire Princess Miyu are hailed as "classics," Miyazaki hasn't
yet been reviewed (or even mentioned). Neither has Gundam, Astro Boy,
Yamato, or virtually anything somebody from Japan would recognize. This
is not a world of anime, it is the America of anime. Not only that, but
these are the same worn-out titles from back in the days I was still
renting anything I could find at the local Blockbuster.
It's interesting not as a guide to anime, but perhaps as an initiation
into the "world" of the active American otaku, all confusion and
surface-level "research" intact. While I respect the DIY effort to bring
more information about Japanese cartoons to the public, the show wallows
in old, retreaded ideas and misconceptions. This is exactly what I
*don't* mean when I say I hope people make an effort to learn.
There were specific things in the show that bothered me though.
Especially interesting was the caucasian man in the samurai costume trying
to get his interviewee to support what seem like his justifications for
being an anime fan. He failed. ...actually, that was at least as funny
as it was bad. I broke out in a nervous laugh when I saw that fellow
sitting in front of the old Japanese flag...
At least the guest interviews are interesting so far.
Mike A
Scott Schimmel
: It's a decision. You decide if you like something or not. In U.S. anime
: fandom it's usually pretty arbitrary. Or at least the decision has very
: little to do with the show itself.
That makes no sense. For the non-fan audience, I could believe it,
but not for American fandom.
: Hopefully as people gain experience they will become pickier, learn a
: little about the topic, choose to like fewer things, and require better
: justification for their choices.
Why? How is it a -good- thing to choose to like -fewer-? Narrowing
one's horizons isn't really a good strategy for learning more about
the topic.
: Often this doesn't happen, though.
: ...usually it doesn't. In the last couple of nights I've watched several
: episodes of a fan-produced public access TV program dealing with anime &
: anime reviews. While low-profile, mediocre titles such as Bubblegum
: Crisis and Vampire Princess Miyu are hailed as "classics," Miyazaki hasn't
: yet been reviewed (or even mentioned).
Miyuu, mediocre? Support that, please?
It may not be a classic, but it's far above most domestic releases in
terms of quality.
: Neither has Gundam, Astro Boy,
: Yamato, or virtually anything somebody from Japan would recognize.
Gundam largely bores me. Astro Boy is more interesting as a piece of
history than as a piece of art, though it's not at all bad.
Yamato... well, I'd have to agree there; if nothing else, I'm
surprised they didn't mention Starblazers, since it was so well-known
here.
: This is not a world of anime, it is the America of anime.
So? The audience for the show is American.
: Not only that, but
: these are the same worn-out titles from back in the days I was still
: renting anything I could find at the local Blockbuster.
Uh... so they shouldn't talk about the old releases like BGC and VPM,
but about the even older releases such as Gundam and Astro Boy?
Silly, really; there's a small number of people who appreciate anime
as art, just as there's a small number of people who appreciate movies
in general as art... but the majority of the audience for either
appreciates them as entertainment. And they're not wrong to do so.
(This, BTW, is even more true in Japan than in America, from my
observations.)
--
Scott Schimmel http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~schimmel/
Ex ignorantia ad sapientium; "You really aren't normal, are you?"
ex luce ad tenebras. -- Miki Koishikawa
M Arnold
>M Arnold wrote:
>That makes no sense. For the non-fan audience, I could believe it,
>but not for American fandom.
It makes perfect sense, *especially* for American fans. Most American
anime "otaku" haven't the slightest idea what they're watching--I don't
blame them. As most of them have no experience in Japan, how could they?
Unfortunately, they use their misconceptions to explain and inflate some
assumed value in the hobby. If you disagree feel free to explain why...
I like [some] Japanese cartoons just because I like them. I don't need to
stretch out some ill-formed argument about, for example, how cartoons in
Japan are historically significant, or how they're all intelligent, adult
works just to validate my feeling.
>Why? How is it a -good- thing to choose to like -fewer-? Narrowing
It means one is more critical, not just grabbing and celebrating anything
that comes their way.
>one's horizons isn't really a good strategy for learning more about
>the topic.
You forgot that I said this is a step that should happen *in* *time*.
>Miyuu, mediocre? Support that, please?
How many Japanese do you know who are big Miyu fans? Do you think it's
more interesting than *anything* Matsumoto, Miyazaki, Takahata, Oshii, or
Tezuka have done?
The reviewer's main complaint for this show was that the story was too
short. If I'm not mistaken, it's based on a comic... was the comic
ignored totally?
>It may not be a classic, but it's far above most domestic releases in
>terms of quality.
What does that say about the kinds of Japanese animated shows Americans
choose to "like" and import?
>Gundam largely bores me. Astro Boy is more interesting as a piece of
The influence Gundam had (and still has) can't be understated.
>history than as a piece of art, though it's not at all bad.
Is Miyu art?
>So? The audience for the show is American.
Why don't they call the show, "The America of Anime" then? Or "Anime for
Americans"?
>Uh... so they shouldn't talk about the old releases like BGC and VPM,
>but about the even older releases such as Gundam and Astro Boy?
BGC and VPM did very little. Gundam and Astro Boy are still talked about,
watched, rebroadcast, imitated... known.
>Silly, really; there's a small number of people who appreciate anime
>as art, just as there's a small number of people who appreciate movies
I try to appreciate anime as anime, not as American entertainment.
>in general as art... but the majority of the audience for either
>appreciates them as entertainment. And they're not wrong to do so.
>(This, BTW, is even more true in Japan than in America, from my
So why do Americans so often get confused as to what is "entertaining?"
Most of the shows that are successful in Japan are *definitely* not the
ones that are successful here.
How do we decide if we like a show?
Mike A
Scott Schimmel
: schi...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Scott Schimmel) writes:
: >That makes no sense. For the non-fan audience, I could believe it,
: >but not for American fandom.
: It makes perfect sense, *especially* for American fans. Most American
: anime "otaku" haven't the slightest idea what they're watching--I don't
: blame them. As most of them have no experience in Japan, how could they?
: Unfortunately, they use their misconceptions to explain and inflate some
: assumed value in the hobby. If you disagree feel free to explain why...
You're kidding, right..?
: I like [some] Japanese cartoons just because I like them. I don't need to
: stretch out some ill-formed argument about, for example, how cartoons in
: Japan are historically significant, or how they're all intelligent, adult
: works just to validate my feeling.
Good. That's what I was getting at. It's the rest of your post whose
point escapes me.
: >Why? How is it a -good- thing to choose to like -fewer-? Narrowing
: It means one is more critical, not just grabbing and celebrating anything
: that comes their way.
No, it doesn't. It means one likes fewer anime. That doesn't
necessarily mean those fewer examples are any better than most.
For that matter, it's not necessarily true that the ones worth
"celebrating" are the minority, Sturgeon's Law notwithstanding. (It
is true in the case of anime, though.)
: >one's horizons isn't really a good strategy for learning more about
: >the topic.
: You forgot that I said this is a step that should happen *in* *time*.
And I suggest that, with experience, one should become able to
appreciate a wider variety.
: >Miyuu, mediocre? Support that, please?
: How many Japanese do you know who are big Miyu fans?
Ah. So quality is defined by popularity?
: Do you think it's more interesting than *anything* Matsumoto,
: Miyazaki, Takahata, Oshii, or Tezuka have done?
Yes.
: The reviewer's main complaint for this show was that the story was too
: short. If I'm not mistaken, it's based on a comic... was the comic
: ignored totally?
Not totally. The OAVs didn't follow it exactly, though.
: >It may not be a classic, but it's far above most domestic releases in
: >terms of quality.
: What does that say about the kinds of Japanese animated shows Americans
: choose to "like" and import?
Uh... you do realize that there's a TON of really bad anime that
Americans never import, right? What does -that- say about the kinds
of Japanese animated shows Americans choose to "like" and import?
: >Gundam largely bores me. Astro Boy is more interesting as a piece of
: The influence Gundam had (and still has) can't be understated.
So what? It's still boring. Ayn Rand had influence, too, but that
doesn't make her books great literature.
: >history than as a piece of art, though it's not at all bad.
: Is Miyu art?
Of course. Have you ever seen it?
: >So? The audience for the show is American.
: Why don't they call the show, "The America of Anime" then? Or
: "Anime for Americans"?
I -know- you're not ignorant of the connotations of "The World of..."
as a title.
: >Uh... so they shouldn't talk about the old releases like BGC and VPM,
: >but about the even older releases such as Gundam and Astro Boy?
: BGC and VPM did very little. Gundam and Astro Boy are still talked
: about, watched, rebroadcast, imitated... known.
BGC, at least, was pretty influential in America. And, hey,
look... there's a new (recent) BGC TV series airing in Japan! There
was a new VPM TV series not so long ago, too. They're not exactly
unknown.
: >Silly, really; there's a small number of people who appreciate anime
: >as art, just as there's a small number of people who appreciate movies
: I try to appreciate anime as anime, not as American entertainment.
Do you? I wonder.
That wasn't exactly the point, though.
: >in general as art... but the majority of the audience for either
: >appreciates them as entertainment. And they're not wrong to do so.
: >(This, BTW, is even more true in Japan than in America, from my
: So why do Americans so often get confused as to what is
: "entertaining?"
Who's to say they do?
: Most of the shows that are successful in Japan are *definitely* not
: the ones that are successful here.
So what?
Should we feel obligated to like only what was popular in Japan? Is
popularity in Japan really a measure of artistic value? Is the
generalized American aesthetic inferior to the generalized Japanese
aesthetic? If so, why? And why, then, has American pop culture had
so much influence on Japanese pop culture? If not, then what basis do
you have for saying that Americans are "confused" about what they
like?
: How do we decide if we like a show?
It's a personal thing. I look at plot, characters, and style, mostly.
M Arnold
>M Arnold wrote:
>: Unfortunately, they use their misconceptions to explain and inflate some
>: assumed value in the hobby. If you disagree feel free to explain why...
>You're kidding, right..?
No, I'm not. What makes you think I am? Do you really think it's such a
ridiculous idea? *Why?*
>No, it doesn't. It means one likes fewer anime. That doesn't
>necessarily mean those fewer examples are any better than most.
No, not necessarily. Like I said, though, if they're watching less it
probably does mean a person isn't indiscriminately "liking" just anything
they can find (anymore?).
>And I suggest that, with experience, one should become able to
>appreciate a wider variety.
That's not the case with my experience. I might be unusual--most of my
old "anime fan" friends have just completely lost interest. They got fed
up with the formulas and couldn't find anything new, challenging or
interesting.
>Ah. So quality is defined by popularity?
Perhaps medoicrity is. "Mediocre." Run-of-the-mill. Usual, plain,
forgettable. I wonder how many people in Japan knew the anime to be able
to forget it.
>: Do you think it's more interesting than *anything* Matsumoto,
>: Miyazaki, Takahata, Oshii, or Tezuka have done?
>Yes.
Do you think it's more interesting than *all* those other directors'
works, or do you think some are less and some are more interesting.
Which ones? Would you care to offer why? Even though Miyazaki's Mononoke
Hime is the best selling Japanese film in history, why would you choose
Vampire Princess Miyu instead? Why do you think so many people would see
Mononoke Hime?
>: short. If I'm not mistaken, it's based on a comic... was the comic
>: ignored totally?
>Not totally. The OAVs didn't follow it exactly, though.
By "ignored" I meant in the review. The reviewer in the TV show didn't
seem to have any information about or knowledge of the comic. Still, the
Miyu story was criticized for being too short. Couldn't the expanded
story be found in the comic? The creators probably expected that the
people who rented the OVA would know the comic already... The reviewer's
complaint--part of his decision to "like" the show (or not)--has that big
hole in it.
>Uh... you do realize that there's a TON of really bad anime that
>Americans never import, right? What does -that- say about the kinds
I've lived in Japan; I realize that. I also realize that--for one
example--Gundam just got here... Do you realize how many tonS (plural) of
"really good" anime are completely unknown here? Miyazaki, Oshii and
Otomo isn't all there is.
>of Japanese animated shows Americans choose to "like" and import?
The fact that they *don't know* what's available in Japan (or what their
reputations are) before they judge what they rent in American stores, and
that they probably lack the "full story" behind the shows that *are* in
the stores, suggests that their choices could be premature.
>So what? It's still boring. Ayn Rand had influence, too, but that
>doesn't make her books great literature.
It doesn't? What does then? Maybe the fact that a lot of people thought
her books were actually *interesting*?
I think the point is this--"so what" if you, not even a part of the
intended audience, thinks it's boring? Chances are a lot of the anime you
do like was influenced heavily by Gundam or shows like it--the ones that
*were* popular. Your favorite anime wasn't created in a bubble that
ignored everything that came before it. While you dismiss one you praise
another. So why do you like what you like?
>: Is Miyu art?
>Of course. Have you ever seen it?
Uh-huh. A few times. <:-) That's why I was asking, "is it art?"
>I -know- you're not ignorant of the connotations of "The World of..."
>as a title.
Right.
>BGC, at least, was pretty influential in America. And, hey,
So it *is* the America of Anime after all.
>was a new VPM TV series not so long ago, too. They're not exactly
>unknown.
Well, of course not. They were once published/animated, after all.
>: Most of the shows that are successful in Japan are *definitely* not
>: the ones that are successful here.
>So what?
"So what?"?! If some of these shows--made for Japanese by Japanese--are
very well "liked" by Japanese people while Americans just shrug them off,
there must be a very big gap between what the animators are saying and
what we're hearing. But we (think we) are hearing something, so what is
it we're using to fill that gap?
>Should we feel obligated to like only what was popular in Japan? Is
We're asking the question, "how do you know what you like?"
>aesthetic? If so, why? And why, then, has American pop culture had
>so much influence on Japanese pop culture? If not, then what basis do
Americans generally overestimate their own power in these terms. I don't
think it's had such a huge influence.
>It's a personal thing. I look at plot, characters, and style, mostly.
Well, that's easy. {sigh}
I think it's something I was trying to get, anyway--an answer. People
here usually judge the shows ignorant of the creators' intent (cultural,
social, critical, monitary, political... audience, whatever), which
undeniably played a major role in a show's creation and distribution in
Japan. Uninformed (not exactly the fault of the consumer), "fans" get
stuck making guesses and not quite knowing how to respond to the foreign
things they see. (We're getting a lot of different interpretations about
certain "hentai" shows in a porn-related thread right now.) In other
words, it's an arbitrary choice--not an educated one. As Scott thinks, it
is indeed a very "personal" thing.
>It's a personal thing. I look at plot, characters, and style, mostly.
I still wish I could see, though, that "fans" actually build upon their
base of knowledge as their experience grows. How would their choices
change, then?
Mike A
Signus Megido
M Arnold wrote:
> schi...@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Scott Schimmel) writes:
> >M Arnold wrote:
>
> >That makes no sense. For the non-fan audience, I could believe it,
> >but not for American fandom.
>
> It makes perfect sense, *especially* for American fans. Most American
> anime "otaku" haven't the slightest idea what they're watching--I don't
> blame them. As most of them have no experience in Japan, how could they?
> Unfortunately, they use their misconceptions to explain and inflate some
> assumed value in the hobby. If you disagree feel free to explain why...
>
> I like [some] Japanese cartoons just because I like them. I don't need to
> stretch out some ill-formed argument about, for example, how cartoons in
> Japan are historically significant, or how they're all intelligent, adult
> works just to validate my feeling.
>
> >Why? How is it a -good- thing to choose to like -fewer-? Narrowing
>
> It means one is more critical, not just grabbing and celebrating anything
> that comes their way.
>
> >one's horizons isn't really a good strategy for learning more about
> >the topic.
>
> You forgot that I said this is a step that should happen *in* *time*.
>
> >Miyuu, mediocre? Support that, please?
>
> How many Japanese do you know who are big Miyu fans? Do you think it's
> more interesting than *anything* Matsumoto, Miyazaki, Takahata, Oshii, or
> Tezuka have done?
>
> The reviewer's main complaint for this show was that the story was too
> short. If I'm not mistaken, it's based on a comic... was the comic
> ignored totally?
>
> >It may not be a classic, but it's far above most domestic releases in
> >terms of quality.
>
> What does that say about the kinds of Japanese animated shows Americans
> choose to "like" and import?
>
> >Gundam largely bores me. Astro Boy is more interesting as a piece of
>
> The influence Gundam had (and still has) can't be understated.
>
> >history than as a piece of art, though it's not at all bad.
>
> Is Miyu art?
>
> >So? The audience for the show is American.
>
> Why don't they call the show, "The America of Anime" then? Or "Anime for
> Americans"?
>
> >Uh... so they shouldn't talk about the old releases like BGC and VPM,
> >but about the even older releases such as Gundam and Astro Boy?
>
> BGC and VPM did very little. Gundam and Astro Boy are still talked about,
> watched, rebroadcast, imitated... known.
>
> >Silly, really; there's a small number of people who appreciate anime
> >as art, just as there's a small number of people who appreciate movies
>
> I try to appreciate anime as anime, not as American entertainment.
>
> >in general as art... but the majority of the audience for either
> >appreciates them as entertainment. And they're not wrong to do so.
> >(This, BTW, is even more true in Japan than in America, from my
>
> So why do Americans so often get confused as to what is "entertaining?"
> Most of the shows that are successful in Japan are *definitely* not the
> ones that are successful here.
>
> How do we decide if we like a show?
>
Reading through this thread, I realized that you can tell a lot about a person
by what anime they prefer. Makes you think, don't it?
-MaRaMaLa, D' Fat Dragon Scribe
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Ginza/2415
Sinulog'99 to the World
http://www.cebu.pw.net.ph/sinulog99
Paul Lampshire
> Hopefully as people gain experience they will become pickier, learn a
> little about the topic, choose to like fewer things, and require better
> justification for their choices.
When you say 'choose to like fewer things' can I assume you don't just mean
a reduction in quantity.
I'll explain.
In the UK, the non-fan audience decided to like fewer things - they went for
the sex'n'violence/tits'n'tentacles end of things.
Was this a good thing? NO!
Scott Schimmel
: >: Unfortunately, they use their misconceptions to explain and
: >: inflate some assumed value in the hobby. If you disagree feel
: >: free to explain why...
: >You're kidding, right..?
: No, I'm not. What makes you think I am? Do you really think it's
: such a ridiculous idea? *Why?*
Because I don't think that understanding the Japanese society has any
direct relation to appreciating -most- anime. If a work can't be
appreciated in and of itself, if it -needs- that sort of historical
background to put it in perspective, then can we call it a great work?
: >No, it doesn't. It means one likes fewer anime. That doesn't
: >necessarily mean those fewer examples are any better than most.
: No, not necessarily. Like I said, though, if they're watching less
: it probably does mean a person isn't indiscriminately "liking" just
: anything they can find (anymore?).
Yes, but you suggest that's a good thing. On the other hand, someone
who watches only tentacle porn anime certainly watches less than I do,
but I don't think that means my tastes are less discriminate, except
perhaps in the purely denotative sense.
: >And I suggest that, with experience, one should become able to
: >appreciate a wider variety.
: That's not the case with my experience. I might be unusual--most of
: my old "anime fan" friends have just completely lost interest. They
: got fed up with the formulas and couldn't find anything new,
: challenging or interesting.
If their taste tends toward such a narrow spectrum, I can understand
why. I'm finding the situation better now than... well, possibly than
ever in my lifetime -- certainly domestically, but possibly in Japan
as well. Recent shows like Key, Lain, and Utena are certainly
innovative enough.
: >Ah. So quality is defined by popularity?
: Perhaps medoicrity is. "Mediocre." Run-of-the-mill. Usual, plain,
: forgettable.
But by what standard? There are plenty of works now considered great
and classic that weren't popular at the time of their appearance --
"Citizen Kane" comes to mind. Are they mediocre? What about the
works that were considered great in their time but are now forgotten?
And then, what if they're rediscovered and become popular next year?
Is quality really such a relative scale?
: >: Do you think it's more interesting than *anything* Matsumoto,
: >: Miyazaki, Takahata, Oshii, or Tezuka have done?
: >Yes.
: Do you think it's more interesting than *all* those other directors'
: works, or do you think some are less and some are more interesting.
: Which ones? Would you care to offer why?
No, and sure. I'd choose VPM over, say, PonPoko any day. Watching
PonPoko was a chore for me. It had all the charm and subtlety of a
sledgehammer blow to the head. Miyuu, on the other hand, had style.
It sustained an intricate and convoluted character development over
two hours of time and incorporated action without losing its
atmosphere. Both anime are certainly directed skillfully, but Miyuu
makes more out of a single lingering, quiet 30-second shot of a single
room than PonPoko makes of its entire length, frankly.
I'd probably choose it over most of Tezuka as well, but I'll be the
first to admit that's not because of any intrinsic quality -- I just
don't care for animated Tezuka, as a rule. (The manga is another
story, though.)
: Even though Miyazaki's Mononoke Hime is the best selling Japanese
: film in history, why would you choose Vampire Princess Miyu instead?
I can't say I would, since I haven't seen MH yet. I've had the
opportunity, but I want my first exposure to it to be in a movie
theater, as it was meant to be. ^_^
: Why do you think so many people would see Mononoke Hime?
Why do you think so many people would see Titanic? Is it the best
movie in the history of American cinema?
: >Uh... you do realize that there's a TON of really bad anime that
: >Americans never import, right? What does -that- say about the kinds
: I've lived in Japan; I realize that. I also realize that--for one
: example--Gundam just got here... Do you realize how many tonS
: (plural) of "really good" anime are completely unknown here?
Well, like I said, I don't consider Gundam "really good" at all. But
that's beside the point.
: Miyazaki, Oshii and Otomo isn't all there is.
No. However, by and large, the titles we've imported have been among
the "good" titles. There's much, much more bad stuff lying neglected
out there than good.
: >of Japanese animated shows Americans choose to "like" and import?
: The fact that they *don't know* what's available in Japan (or what their
: reputations are) before they judge what they rent in American stores, and
: that they probably lack the "full story" behind the shows that *are* in
: the stores, suggests that their choices could be premature.
Why? Why does the Japanese conception matter at all? Why *should* we
like the same titles for the same reasons? That's counter-intuitive.
: >So what? It's still boring. Ayn Rand had influence, too, but that
: >doesn't make her books great literature.
: It doesn't? What does then? Maybe the fact that a lot of people
: thought her books were actually *interesting*?
Interesting isn't enough to cut it. Interesting makes them a
footnote, not an enduring part of the cultural foundation. Rand's
books are thinly-disguised political tracts with little plot or
characterization to speak of, and they're more interesting -as-
politics than as literature.
: I think the point is this--"so what" if you, not even a part of the
: intended audience, thinks it's boring?
Exactly! Now we're getting somewhere. What I like and why doesn't
matter to anyone but me. It has nothing to do with what the Japanese
audience liked and why, or what other Americans like and why, or even
what other works I like and why.
: Chances are a lot of the anime you do like was influenced heavily by
: Gundam or shows like it--the ones that *were* popular.
Yes, but that's not relevant to why I like them. It's like saying if
I like "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight," then I must like "Le Morte
d'Arthur," because the one was an influence on the other. It just
isn't so; work can be appreciated on its own merits. While we should
acknowledge influence, we shouldn't assume that that makes the
influencing work somehow more valuable than before.
: Your favorite anime wasn't created in a bubble that ignored
: everything that came before it. While you dismiss one you praise
: another. So why do you like what you like?
Because it suits my tastes, which are broad and varied and next to
impossible to define without a long, rambling post that would interest
no one, even me. That really is all there is to it. Why does anyone
like anything?
: >: Is Miyu art?
: >Of course. Have you ever seen it?
: Uh-huh. A few times. <:-) That's why I was asking, "is it art?"
Okay. Handled this above, in brief.
: >BGC, at least, was pretty influential in America. And, hey,
: So it *is* the America of Anime after all.
You were saying influence was an important part of evaluating a work.
Does this only aply to influence in Japan, then?
: >was a new VPM TV series not so long ago, too. They're not exactly
: >unknown.
: Well, of course not. They were once published/animated, after all.
Lots of things were that are now unknown, or as good as. The point
was, there must have been at least a perceived audience for these new
shows -- or why make them?
: >: Most of the shows that are successful in Japan are *definitely* not
: >: the ones that are successful here.
: >So what?
: "So what?"?! If some of these shows--made for Japanese by
: Japanese--are very well "liked" by Japanese people while Americans
: just shrug them off, there must be a very big gap between what the
: animators are saying and what we're hearing.
Why? Isn't it possible that the message just doesn't interest the
American audience? Is it wrong for different audiences, even
different individuals, to have different expectations, and differing
values on interpretations?
: But we (think we) are hearing something, so what is it we're using
: to fill that gap?
Maybe we see something in some of these works that the Japanese
missed? They certainly see things in American and European movies
that those audiences didn't, so why is it wrong for us to do the same?
: >Should we feel obligated to like only what was popular in Japan? Is
: We're asking the question, "how do you know what you like?"
Yes. Why should we like the same things the Japanese liked? We're
not Japanese.
: >aesthetic? If so, why? And why, then, has American pop culture had
: >so much influence on Japanese pop culture? If not, then what basis do
: Americans generally overestimate their own power in these terms. I
: don't think it's had such a huge influence.
I've been there, too, and I do. They don't assign the same meanings
as Americans do, though -- the American trends take on a different
meaning to them. Or I could say it's influence, not definition.
: >It's a personal thing. I look at plot, characters, and style, mostly.
: Well, that's easy. {sigh}
It is, though. This isn't the sort of huge, defining cultural
mechanism you seem to be making it out to be.
: I think it's something I was trying to get, anyway--an answer. People
: here usually judge the shows ignorant of the creators' intent (cultural,
: social, critical, monitary, political... audience, whatever), which
: undeniably played a major role in a show's creation and distribution in
: Japan.
How much does the creator's intent matter, compared to the audience's
interpretation(s), though? (The ongoing debate in criticism...) Does
either one really matter for the majority of anime, which is, after
all, entertainment?
: Uninformed (not exactly the fault of the consumer), "fans" get
: stuck making guesses and not quite knowing how to respond to the
: foreign things they see. (We're getting a lot of different
: interpretations about certain "hentai" shows in a porn-related
: thread right now.) In other words, it's an arbitrary choice--not an
: educated one.
Yes, but "what I like" is *by nature* an arbitrary choice; that's all
I'm trying to show. You like things because the Japanese liked them,
or because they're influential? Fine. I like things because of the
story elements and style? Also fine. This is an entirely personal
evaluation. I might even go so far as to say that a preference cannot
be an "educated" choice in the usual sense of the word.
: As Scott thinks, it is indeed a very "personal" thing.
: >It's a personal thing. I look at plot, characters, and style, mostly.
: I still wish I could see, though, that "fans" actually build upon
: their base of knowledge as their experience grows. How would their
: choices change, then?
Would they at all? My choices are similar to those I made when I
first entered the hobby lo these many years ago. ^_^ I see a greater
variety, now, because I know about more titles and I've learned to
find the things I like in more titles, but the basic reason is still
the same.
M Arnold
>Reading through this thread, I realized that you can tell a lot about a person
>by what anime they prefer. Makes you think, don't it?
I don't know if I agree. In America at least, because there's such a
small selection of anime a lot of people end up "liking" about the same
things. It doesn't really imply a lot of diversity in the audience...
Mike A
M Arnold
>M Arnold wrote:
>Because I don't think that understanding the Japanese society has any
>direct relation to appreciating -most- anime. If a work can't be
I don't think this is necessarily about understanding the society.
Perhaps about understanding the anime, in part...
>Yes, but you suggest that's a good thing. On the other hand, someone
I sure do. For example, let's say when I first started watching anime I
"liked" Dirty Pair, Sailor Moon, M.D. Geist, Nausicaa, Baoh, and Golgo 13.
After a while, I learned a little more about the shows and decided I only
liked Sailor Moon and Nausicaa. Sailor Moon got repetetive so now I watch
only Nausicaa.
>If their taste tends toward such a narrow spectrum, I can understand
Actually they don't. Some were anime club presidents/officers and they've
seen their fair share of titles. They watched everything at first and
then started shaving stuff off the edges...
>But by what standard? There are plenty of works now considered great
Forgettible by what standard? By the standard that people don't remember
it, or that the people who do don't care that much since it was
indistinguishable from other titles.
>and classic that weren't popular at the time of their appearance --
>"Citizen Kane" comes to mind. Are they mediocre? What about the
Citizen Kane hasn't been forgotten.
>No, and sure. I'd choose VPM over, say, PonPoko any day. Watching
>PonPoko was a chore for me. It had all the charm and subtlety of a
That's interesting! The first time I watched Pompoko I was interested,
but confused. After I studied some of the political background of the
film--Sanrizuka, etc. and left-wing movements, the bubble economy... (and
I lived in Machida)--I started to see a much richer meaning in the film.
The music and art are both top-rate, the realism and style of the
animation are as good as anything Takahata has ever directed. *Now* I
think Pompoko is probably the best film to come out of Ghibli so far,
maybe only second to Mononoke Hime. Ironically enough, if my memory
serves me Japan agrees with me. (I think Pompoko was the best selling
Ghibli film before Mononoke Hime, but I need to check & make sure.)
People who studied & watched the film with me agree. I'm very excited to
see Takahata's new film...
>atmosphere. Both anime are certainly directed skillfully, but Miyuu
>makes more out of a single lingering, quiet 30-second shot of a single
>room than PonPoko makes of its entire length, frankly.
Oh, I totally disagree.
That's just my opinion though, I guess. What I choose to say "I like."
>opportunity, but I want my first exposure to it to be in a movie
>theater, as it was meant to be. ^_^
...and in Japanese, as it was meant to be? <:-/ I guess that's another
issue.
>Why do you think so many people would see Titanic? Is it the best
>movie in the history of American cinema?
What, you don't think so? Give it some time... see what people think in
10 years.
>Well, like I said, I don't consider Gundam "really good" at all. But
>that's beside the point.
It's exactly the point.
>No. However, by and large, the titles we've imported have been among
>the "good" titles. There's much, much more bad stuff lying neglected
The "good" titles by *American* judgement, not by the judgement of the
culture that created them.
>Why? Isn't it possible that the message just doesn't interest the
>American audience?
That's impossible when the American audience has no idea what the message
is... or if there even *is* one.
>Maybe we see something in some of these works that the Japanese
>missed?
Well, we surely add American [cultural/cinematic] expectations, codes and
experiences and try to judge the Japanese productions from a localized
point of view. I'm sure the Japanese viewers missed that completely.
>Yes. Why should we like the same things the Japanese liked? We're
>not Japanese.
That's an interesting point.
>: thread right now.) In other words, it's an arbitrary choice--not an
>: educated one.
Mike A
Scott Schimmel
: >direct relation to appreciating -most- anime. If a work can't be
: I don't think this is necessarily about understanding the society.
: Perhaps about understanding the anime, in part...
Hmm, okay. What would you say is necessary in order to understand
anime, then?
: >Yes, but you suggest that's a good thing. On the other hand, someone
: I sure do. For example, let's say when I first started watching
: anime I "liked" Dirty Pair, Sailor Moon, M.D. Geist, Nausicaa, Baoh,
: and Golgo 13. After a while, I learned a little more about the
: shows and decided I only liked Sailor Moon and Nausicaa. Sailor
: Moon got repetetive so now I watch only Nausicaa.
Ah, but you've set up an example biased toward your opinion. Let's
change it a bit. You started out liking the same things, but Nausicaa
didn't grab you, and in the end, of all those, you ended up watching
only Baoh. Is that still a good thing, in your opinion?
: >If their taste tends toward such a narrow spectrum, I can understand
: Actually they don't. Some were anime club presidents/officers and
: they've seen their fair share of titles. They watched everything at
: first and then started shaving stuff off the edges...
<shrug> Their loss, then. People do get tired of their hobbies, after
all.
: >But by what standard? There are plenty of works now considered great
: Forgettible by what standard? By the standard that people don't
: remember it, or that the people who do don't care that much since it
: was indistinguishable from other titles.
Not quite what I was getting at, but well enough. So you -are-
saying, then, that a piece of work can go from brilliant to mediocre
and back over time, as its popularity rises and falls?
: >and classic that weren't popular at the time of their appearance --
: >"Citizen Kane" comes to mind. Are they mediocre? What about the
: Citizen Kane hasn't been forgotten.
Cinema history. Citizen Kane was a colossal failure when it was first
released. It -was- forgotten for years. It only became popular
during a re-release much later.
: >No, and sure. I'd choose VPM over, say, PonPoko any day. Watching
: >PonPoko was a chore for me. It had all the charm and subtlety of a
: That's interesting! The first time I watched Pompoko I was
: interested, but confused. After I studied some of the political
: background of the film--Sanrizuka, etc. and left-wing movements, the
: bubble economy... (and I lived in Machida)--I started to see a much
: richer meaning in the film.
Hmm. Maybe I'd have liked it better if I'd been ignorant of that the
first time I watched it, and studied it later. As it was, I had
already studied all of that, and, perhaps as a result, I found the
film entirely too didactic.
: The music and art are both top-rate, the realism and style of the
: animation are as good as anything Takahata has ever directed.
The music and art were as expected. I did think the music direction
was somewhat lacking, in parts, though -- Miyuu made a more effective
use of its soundtrack. Realism... can't say much about that, since I
don't usually pay much attention to it. It's not something I look for
in animation. It was well-drawn, but, hey, it's a theatrical release.
The style I just didn't care for, in PonPoko. That's an entirely
subjective thing, though, and it's hard to quantify.
: *Now* I think Pompoko is probably the best film to come out of
: Ghibli so far, maybe only second to Mononoke Hime.
Hmm. Leaving aside Mononoke Hime, which I haven't seen, I'd say the
best Ghibli movie was Mimi o Sumaseba. Which was, if I understand
correctly, popular but hardly a blockbuster in Japan. It doesn't have
a grand "message" to it, but IMO, that's part of what makes it great.
Much like Omoide Poroporo.
: >atmosphere. Both anime are certainly directed skillfully, but Miyuu
: >makes more out of a single lingering, quiet 30-second shot of a single
: >room than PonPoko makes of its entire length, frankly.
: Oh, I totally disagree.
: That's just my opinion though, I guess. What I choose to say "I like."
Fair enough.
: >opportunity, but I want my first exposure to it to be in a movie
: >theater, as it was meant to be. ^_^
: ...and in Japanese, as it was meant to be? <:-/ I guess that's
: another issue.
Not really. You could as easily have said "...and in your native
language, as it was meant to be." I have no problems with dubs, if it
comes to that, though -- Disney's proven themselves there to my
satisfaction.
Heck, I'd watch it raw, as long as it was in a theater.
: >Why do you think so many people would see Titanic? Is it the best
: >movie in the history of American cinema?
: What, you don't think so?
I may be the only person left in America who hasn't seen it. Even I,
however, couldn't avoid all of the hype, clips, and so on, and from
what I've seen and heard of it, I can say unequivocally: Hell, no.
: Give it some time... see what people think in 10 years.
I could say the same for Mononoke Hime.
: >Well, like I said, I don't consider Gundam "really good" at all. But
: >that's beside the point.
: It's exactly the point.
You know, you're right. Heh.
: >No. However, by and large, the titles we've imported have been among
: >the "good" titles. There's much, much more bad stuff lying neglected
: The "good" titles by *American* judgement, not by the judgement of the
: culture that created them.
Well, yes. We're talking about the titles brought to *America*. But
these are considered good -- not the best, but good -- in Japan also,
for the most part.
: >Why? Isn't it possible that the message just doesn't interest the
: >American audience?
: That's impossible when the American audience has no idea what the
: message is... or if there even *is* one.
How do you know they don't?
: >Maybe we see something in some of these works that the Japanese
: >missed?
: Well, we surely add American [cultural/cinematic] expectations,
: codes and experiences and try to judge the Japanese productions from
: a localized point of view. I'm sure the Japanese viewers missed
: that completely.
More than that, though. There are themes that speak more to a typical
American audience than a typical Japanese one. Some of them are even
due to the influence of American fiction, so that's no surprise. So,
while Americans aren't the intended audience, it's not unlikely that
they might see things the Japanese miss, and vice versa.