This has got to stop now........
animewatcher4life
if anime creators have something against cool female characters they
seem to all get shafted or neglected at the end and always the odd
person out in the love triangle. I like to see the cool character be
the winner in the love triangle. Example of this biased recently is
Rei(from eva), Meia Gisborne(vandread), Ruri(nadesico), and soon to be
victim Theresa(Full Metal Panic). Bringing another point shows when
the cool character isn't the odd person out of the love triangle,
Madoka(KOR), Misa Hayes(Macross), Belldandy(Ah my Goddess) just to
name a few are classics and loved by many fans, its not a coincidence.
Anyone here feels the same.
Doug Jacobs
Er.
Rei is cool, but not in the way that Madoka is cool... One is nifty,
the other, lacks emotion it seems.
Besides, there was never any real love triangle in Eva...unless you're
counting the one between Kaji, Misato, and Asuka, but we all know who
"won" that one
As for Nadesico, I think you're missing a few sides from the polygon
there :)
John Cable
(animewatcher4life) LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
Well, Japan has a reputation as one of THE most sexist countries ever
for a reason. Anime is the sign, it's a pretty glaring reflection of
society. Not many anime creators really step out of the cliches and
stereotypes that they're bound to. The only ones who have are the
really famous ones (take a guess as to who I mean).
--
Nepchewn "John 'Creexul' Cable" Salad (AIM name: Jhoh Cable)
http://animehistory.keenspace.com
Because webcomics are ALWAYS so very original.
"I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
- Hayao Miyazaki (obviously racist against anime! O_O!!!)
Metlhd3138
>really famous ones (take a guess as to who I mean).
Miyazaki? Takahata?
CorwinOfAmber
"John Cable" <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message
news:t50jauoftmtd76s8o...@4ax.com...
> On 25 Mar 2002 11:31:42 -0800, livefor...@yahoo.com
> (animewatcher4life) LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
>
> > I've watch too many animes and read too many mangas and its seems as
> > if anime creators have something against cool female characters they
> > seem to all get shafted or neglected at the end and always the odd
> > person out in the love triangle. I like to see the cool character be
> > the winner in the love triangle. Example of this biased recently is
> > Rei(from eva), Meia Gisborne(vandread), Ruri(nadesico), and soon to be
> > victim Theresa(Full Metal Panic). Bringing another point shows when
> > the cool character isn't the odd person out of the love triangle,
> > Madoka(KOR), Misa Hayes(Macross), Belldandy(Ah my Goddess) just to
> > name a few are classics and loved by many fans, its not a coincidence.
> > Anyone here feels the same.
>
> Well, Japan has a reputation as one of THE most sexist countries ever
> for a reason. Anime is the sign, it's a pretty glaring reflection of
> society. Not many anime creators really step out of the cliches and
> stereotypes that they're bound to. The only ones who have are the
> really famous ones (take a guess as to who I mean).
One of the most sexist INDUSTRIALIZED countries.
Kurki Kaze
wrote:
>On 25 Mar 2002 11:31:42 -0800, livefor...@yahoo.com
>(animewatcher4life) LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
>
>> I've watch too many animes and read too many mangas and its seems as
>> if anime creators have something against cool female characters they
>> seem to all get shafted or neglected at the end and always the odd
>> person out in the love triangle. I like to see the cool character be
>> the winner in the love triangle. Example of this biased recently is
>> Rei(from eva), Meia Gisborne(vandread), Ruri(nadesico), and soon to be
>> victim Theresa(Full Metal Panic). Bringing another point shows when
>> the cool character isn't the odd person out of the love triangle,
>> Madoka(KOR), Misa Hayes(Macross), Belldandy(Ah my Goddess) just to
>> name a few are classics and loved by many fans, its not a coincidence.
>> Anyone here feels the same.
>
>Well, Japan has a reputation as one of THE most sexist countries ever
>for a reason. Anime is the sign, it's a pretty glaring reflection of
>society. Not many anime creators really step out of the cliches and
>stereotypes that they're bound to. The only ones who have are the
>really famous ones (take a guess as to who I mean).
To say that Japan has a reputation of being one of the most sexist
countries is kind of ignorant on your part, just look to the middle
east my friend. The Japanese culture does address issues of this sort,
it's clearly evident in there society. No industrial nation could
ever reach the hights that they are now, errrr.. use to be, with
sexiest polices.
Doug Jacobs
> Well, Japan has a reputation as one of THE most sexist countries ever
> for a reason. Anime is the sign, it's a pretty glaring reflection of
> society. Not many anime creators really step out of the cliches and
> stereotypes that they're bound to. The only ones who have are the
> really famous ones (take a guess as to who I mean).
Anime in general is a pretty deformed reflection of Japanese society...
as is *any* pop-culture product with regards to the actual culture that
produced it.
For example, look at American movies. Now try to imagine being in Japan,
never having been to America and reconstructing American society based
solely on those movies.
American action movies are very popular in Japan. Is it any surprise that
many Japanese honestly believe that all Americans carry at least one firearm?
Torajima
<jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote:
> Well, Japan has a reputation as one of THE most sexist countries ever
> for a reason. Anime is the sign, it's a pretty glaring reflection of
> society. Not many anime creators really step out of the cliches and
> stereotypes that they're bound to.
If you think Japan is the most sexist country around, you need to spend
some time in Afghanistan.
And the fact is, women in anime are generally portrayed better than
men, and are not bound to the roles of women in real life Japan. In
anime, women can do pretty much anything men can do, and in many cases,
do it better.
And as for the person who was complaining about cool anime characters
getting shafted when it comes to romance...
Rei couldn't end up with Shinji, because she was cloned from his mother
(incest is kinda sick, don't you think?).
Ruri was too damn young (11 or something) to be "hooking up" with
anyone.
As for the Vandread girls... none of them got shafted. They didn't
really want the shaft, seeing how it was whole ship full of lesbians!
^_^
Torajima
John Cable
<Tora...@nospam.mindspring.com.invalid> LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> In article <t50jauoftmtd76s8o...@4ax.com>, John Cable
> <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote:
>
> > Well, Japan has a reputation as one of THE most sexist countries ever
> > for a reason. Anime is the sign, it's a pretty glaring reflection of
> > society. Not many anime creators really step out of the cliches and
> > stereotypes that they're bound to.
>
> If you think Japan is the most sexist country around, you need to spend
> some time in Afghanistan.
One of the.
Skeleton Man
"Doug Jacobs" <dja...@rawbw.com> wrote in message
> American action movies are very popular in Japan. Is it any surprise that
> many Japanese honestly believe that all Americans carry at least one
firearm?
>
Everyone I know does...
--
Skeleton Man
Animate without pay until someone offers pay. If nobody offers pay within
three years, the candidate may look upon this circumstance with the most
implicit confidence as the sign that sawing wood is what he was intended
for.
Frank White
Tora...@nospam.mindspring.com.invalid says...
>
>In article <t50jauoftmtd76s8o...@4ax.com>, John Cable
><jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote:
>
>> Well, Japan has a reputation as one of THE most sexist countries ever
>> for a reason. Anime is the sign, it's a pretty glaring reflection of
>> society. Not many anime creators really step out of the cliches and
>> stereotypes that they're bound to.
>
>If you think Japan is the most sexist country around, you need to spend
>some time in Afghanistan.
>
>And the fact is, women in anime are generally portrayed better than
>men, and are not bound to the roles of women in real life Japan. In
>anime, women can do pretty much anything men can do, and in many cases,
>do it better.
>
>And as for the person who was complaining about cool anime characters
>getting shafted when it comes to romance...
Spoiler space for one of the secrets of Neon Genesis Evangelion
>Rei couldn't end up with Shinji, because she was cloned from his mother
>(incest is kinda sick, don't you think?).
Two observations:
Not everyone has seen the ending(s) of NGE. You might want to
avoid giving away suprises without warning.
And...
It's anime. Incest is hardly worth a second look.
FW
Rob Browning
wrote:
>In rec.arts.anime.misc John Cable <jcc...@comcast.nethurf> wrote:
>
>> Well, Japan has a reputation as one of THE most sexist countries ever
>> for a reason. Anime is the sign, it's a pretty glaring reflection of
>> society. Not many anime creators really step out of the cliches and
>> stereotypes that they're bound to. The only ones who have are the
>> really famous ones (take a guess as to who I mean).
>
>Anime in general is a pretty deformed reflection of Japanese society...
>as is *any* pop-culture product with regards to the actual culture that
>produced it.
Yeah, but that doesn't stop Japan from being pretty massively sexist.
Rob
Owner of 2501 Netstalker Points awarded by Corwin of Amber, mainly
because Atma's just too damn attractive to get away from.
Gave 7499 Netstalker Points to Cypher because there's no such thing as
a good day on AGFF without JT bashing!
Owner of David Watson, rec.arts.anime.misc
"Women believe if a pet cat strays, it's because of a lack of affection
at home. Women believe if a pet dog strays, it's because of a lack of
affection at home. Women believe if a woman strays, it's because of a
lack of affection at home. Women believe if a man strays, it's because
men are scum."
--Laff-a-day, April 2, 2002
Rob Browning
>And the fact is, women in anime are generally portrayed better than
>men, and are not bound to the roles of women in real life Japan. In
Yes, if by "better" you mean "getting constantly raped and/or having
tits the size of their heads."
Doug Jacobs
> To say that Japan has a reputation of being one of the most sexist
> countries is kind of ignorant on your part, just look to the middle
> east my friend. The Japanese culture does address issues of this sort,
> it's clearly evident in there society. No industrial nation could
> ever reach the hights that they are now, errrr.. use to be, with
> sexiest polices.
(sexiest polices? :) well...after reading some 'You're Under Arrest', I'd
agree with that :)
Japan is still quite sexist compared to many other industrialized countries,
though this is slowly changing.
The same could be said about China and Korea, though I think Japan is
slightly "better"* than those two countries in this regard.
("better" meaning "More like America".)
Torajima
<rbr...@learnlink.emory.edu> wrote:
> >And the fact is, women in anime are generally portrayed better than
> >men, and are not bound to the roles of women in real life Japan. In
>
> Yes, if by "better" you mean "getting constantly raped and/or having
> tits the size of their heads."
I really suggest you watch something other than porn.
Torajima
Dead Kennedys - California Uber Alles.mp3
> > >men, and are not bound to the roles of women in real life Japan. In
> >
> > Yes, if by "better" you mean "getting constantly raped and/or having
> > tits the size of their heads."
>
> I really suggest you watch something other than porn.
Unfortunatly, the majority of all anime has large amounts of fan service, even
the "classic" anime movies. It's extremely difficult to find anime that is not
rated NC-17 or R.
--
Jissough :)
www.suntimes.com/ebert/greatmovies/sho-sunday-ebert171.html
Burn your gods and kill the king
Subjugate your suffering
Dead heart in a dead world
Ethan Hammond
>
> "Torajima" <Tora...@nospam.mindspring.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > In article <2simaucph3hv35taj...@4ax.com>, Rob Browning
> > > >And the fact is, women in anime are generally portrayed better than
> > > >men, and are not bound to the roles of women in real life Japan. In
> > >
> > > Yes, if by "better" you mean "getting constantly raped and/or having
> > > tits the size of their heads."
> >
> > I really suggest you watch something other than porn.
>
> Unfortunatly, the majority of all anime has large amounts of fan service, even
> the "classic" anime movies. It's extremely difficult to find anime that is not
> rated NC-17 or R.
But not as hard as trying to find some grey matter inside of your head.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
John Cable
Like Wings of Hominig... oh yeah.
How about Perfect Blue. Oh.
Akira? Oops, one of the only female characters is almost raped.
Ghost in the Shell? Almost nothing but nudity, plus dismemberment
fetish stuff at the end there, highly pornographic.
And these are some of the POPULAR ones.
PS: anime, for the most part, is just lame.
John Cable
Massive dodge, instant defeat. Flame auto-grade: F. Next time, try
bringing up a point about the topic, instead of acting like a big
baby. Unless all you want from us is a big bottle and a drool bib.
Ethan Hammond--status: destroyed, humiliated.
Selaboc
> "Torajima" <Tora...@nospam.mindspring.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > In article <2simaucph3hv35taj...@4ax.com>, Rob Browning
> > > >And the fact is, women in anime are generally portrayed better than
> > > >men, and are not bound to the roles of women in real life Japan. In
> > >
> > > Yes, if by "better" you mean "getting constantly raped and/or having
> > > tits the size of their heads."
> >
> > I really suggest you watch something other than porn.
>
> Unfortunatly, the majority of all anime has large amounts of fan service, even
> the "classic" anime movies. It's extremely difficult to find anime that is not
> rated NC-17 or R.
Maybe you need glasses.
Just as a casual observation, in the huge Anime rack in the local
Suncoast the most common rating is 12 and 13-UP (the equivilent of
PG/PG-13 for movies) with a decent sizes dose of lower ratings (the
G/PG equivilents). the Higher ratings (16-up equivlent to an R) come
in third, with the "Must be an adult to purchase" (the equivilent to
NC-17) being almost non-existance.
Compare that to the movie racks for Comedy, drama, and sci-fi horror.
and you will see a similiar breakdown of G/PG-PG-13/R/and NC-17
movies.
Dead Kennedys - California Uber Alles.mp3
So you want to suck the cock of childish "mature" cartoons for kids in Japan to
look cool is what you are saying. I'm afraid I really do like anime more than
you, in that case. I enjoy the very little good anime to catch something else
that will interest me.
It's too bad you're so retarded that you find "art" in stupid porn cartoons.
Dead Kennedys - California Uber Alles.mp3
> > > In article <2simaucph3hv35taj...@4ax.com>, Rob Browning
> > > > >And the fact is, women in anime are generally portrayed better than
> > > > >men, and are not bound to the roles of women in real life Japan. In
> > > > Yes, if by "better" you mean "getting constantly raped and/or having
> > > > tits the size of their heads."
> > >
> > > I really suggest you watch something other than porn.
> >
> > Unfortunatly, the majority of all anime has large amounts of fan service,
even
> > the "classic" anime movies. It's extremely difficult to find anime that is
not
> > rated NC-17 or R.
>
> Maybe you need glasses.
I don't.
> Just as a casual observation, in the huge Anime rack in the local
> Suncoast the most common rating is 12 and 13-UP (the equivilent of
> PG/PG-13 for movies) with a decent sizes dose of lower ratings (the
> G/PG equivilents). the Higher ratings (16-up equivlent to an R) come
> in third, with the "Must be an adult to purchase" (the equivilent to
> NC-17) being almost non-existance.
But who gives a shit about them anyway. Besides, Hello Kitty and Sailor
Moon/DBZ is not my idea of stimulating media.
Steve Jones
Ooooooooooh, burn!
- Steve
John D. Ford
wrote:
>In rec.arts.anime.misc John Cable <jcc...@comcast.nethurf> wrote:
>
>> Well, Japan has a reputation as one of THE most sexist countries ever
>> for a reason. Anime is the sign, it's a pretty glaring reflection of
>> society. Not many anime creators really step out of the cliches and
>> stereotypes that they're bound to. The only ones who have are the
>> really famous ones (take a guess as to who I mean).
>
>Anime in general is a pretty deformed reflection of Japanese society...
>as is *any* pop-culture product with regards to the actual culture that
>produced it.
>
>For example, look at American movies. Now try to imagine being in Japan,
>never having been to America and reconstructing American society based
>solely on those movies.
While no such reconstruction would be accurate as far as living in the
USA goes, I think judging us based on our movies and television would
be pretty accurate as far as determining where the lowest common
denominator is hovering. And that, in turn, indicates what most of
the people here find entertaining. Judged by our movies, I'd say
we're a arrogant, sexist, money-hungry country with a prediliction for
waving guns around. That's how we come off to most of the world, and
I don't entirely disagree with that assessment.
The fact that Japan is astonishingly more sexist than the United
States isn't really up for debate. This doesn't necessarily equate to
"every salaryman wants to rape schoolgirls," but nobody's making that
assertion, as far as I know. But let me ask you this: do you think
people could get away with forming hobbyist clubs around lolita
complexes in the U.S.? Hell, the age of consent in Japan is 14!!
Bear in mind, though, I don't doubt we're going down the same road;
Britney Spears alone seems responsible for pushing the
age-appropriateness of hip huggers and midriffs to the single-digit
range.
>American action movies are very popular in Japan. Is it any surprise that
>many Japanese honestly believe that all Americans carry at least one firearm?
Heheheheheheheheehehe... see, I'm not offended by that. I think it's
funny, because it has a grain of truth. We're a pioneer country,
famed for barging our way into things and then blowing them up in
spectacular fashion. Like the man said, "Speak softly and carry a big
stick." Our military budget exceeds something like the next ten
countries, combined. We station goddamn huge battleships off
everybody's shorelines just to remind people of this. You know what
an acceptable state of readiness is considered to be, for the U.S.
military? The capability to fight *and win* TWO major wars, at the
same time. I think that's astonishing!
Take the recent battle in Afghanistan (forgot the codename), in which
we supposedly killed a thousand or more enemy troops, but recovered
under a hundred bodies. After a lot of wheedling and wrangling,
General Franks finally admitted to the press this was because we
dropped so many bombs that *the entire valley was vaporized.* We're
also the only country to ever use a nuke. Gun-happy? No doubt about
it!
A friend of mine was playing Halo co-op with me the other day, and we
were laughing about the absurdity of the huge Scorpion tank they give
you which you use to blow the fuck out of anything that moves. "This
is funny," he said. "It's totally United States."
John D. Ford
<skel...@planetbone.com> wrote:
>
>"Doug Jacobs" <dja...@rawbw.com> wrote in message
>
>> American action movies are very popular in Japan. Is it any surprise that
>> many Japanese honestly believe that all Americans carry at least one
>firearm?
>>
>
>Everyone I know does...
I know one fella who owns two handguns, a shotgun, a retractible steel
baton, and an assortment of scary looking knives. He keeps some of
them loaded. He's 20.
Doug Jacobs
> The fact that Japan is astonishingly more sexist than the United
> States isn't really up for debate. This doesn't necessarily equate to
> "every salaryman wants to rape schoolgirls," but nobody's making that
> assertion, as far as I know. But let me ask you this: do you think
> people could get away with forming hobbyist clubs around lolita
> complexes in the U.S.? Hell, the age of consent in Japan is 14!!
> Bear in mind, though, I don't doubt we're going down the same road;
> Britney Spears alone seems responsible for pushing the
> age-appropriateness of hip huggers and midriffs to the single-digit
> range.
Yeah, I have to wonder sometimes... MTV tells me what is cool. MTV
shows Britney Spears (underage) dressed like some boy's wet dream as a slutty
Catholic Schoolgirl. Therefore, according to MTV, it's cool to think of
underage girls as sex objects? Eh? Yeah, according to MTV it's always
been cool to think of women as sex objects, but at least in the past, they
"of age."
I really don't understand Britney Spears at all. She's apparentally upset
that parents think she's a bad influence on their young daughters. She's
supposed to be "innocent" and sweet, and yet sings things like "Oops, I did
it again."
>>American action movies are very popular in Japan. Is it any surprise that
>>many Japanese honestly believe that all Americans carry at least one firearm?
> Heheheheheheheheehehe... see, I'm not offended by that. I think it's
> funny, because it has a grain of truth. We're a pioneer country,
> famed for barging our way into things and then blowing them up in
> spectacular fashion. Like the man said, "Speak softly and carry a big
> stick." Our military budget exceeds something like the next ten
> countries, combined. We station goddamn huge battleships off
> everybody's shorelines just to remind people of this. You know what
> an acceptable state of readiness is considered to be, for the U.S.
> military? The capability to fight *and win* TWO major wars, at the
> same time. I think that's astonishing!
I wasn't offended. In fact I was a bit amused :) One thing I learned
while traveling is not be offended easily...
I find that many stereotypes have a grain of truth in them. It's being
willing and able to look beyond the stereotype that's the important thing.
Doug Jacobs
> How about Perfect Blue. Oh.
> Akira? Oops, one of the only female characters is almost raped.
Rape isn't considered porn.
> Ghost in the Shell? Almost nothing but nudity, plus dismemberment
> fetish stuff at the end there, highly pornographic.
I don't know about you, but I certainly don't find dismemberment
pornographic.
Is there pornographic anime? Yes.
Is there fanservice in some anime? Yes.
Does all anime have fanservice in it? No.
Is all anime pornographic? No.
Let's play a little game. You name an anime title that has any fanservice
in it, and I'll name two titles that don't have any fanservice(*) whatsoever.
You've listed 3 titles above, so I'll list 6:
* Laputa
* Totoro
* Nausicaa
* Porco Rosso
* Whispers Of The Heart
* Grave Of The Fireflies
(*) Of course, the term fanservice' is a bit vague... Nudity of any sort
is generally understood to be fanservice, but what about shows like Ping
Pong Club or Crayon Shin-chan - which contain nudity, but you're probably
not going to enjoy it :) Also, what about Battle Athletes (OAV or TV)? No
nudity, but lots of people claim it's non-stop fanservice. (Maybe I'm just
not a leg man...) Then there's the original Dirty Pair - arguably no
fanservice.
Your turn.
Metlhd3138
Danger X
"Metlhd3138" <metlh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020404213435...@mb-mk.aol.com...
> No fanservice at all in robotech,,nuff said
nor in "Grimm's Fairy Tale Classics"
and I don't recall any in Mapletown...
or Sazaesan
or Hakkenden
or Superbook
or Captain Future
or Samurai Pizza Cats
or Kimba
or Ulysses 31
or....
I'll stop now!
More or less,
Kyle (who's memory is fuzzy about yesterday but can remember the dumbest
shows from over 10 years ago!)
RelMark
> "Dead Kennedys - California Uber Alles.mp3" <jtc...@home.com> wrote in
message news:<xKSq8.220461$Gf.20...@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...
> > "Torajima" <Tora...@nospam.mindspring.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > > In article <2simaucph3hv35taj...@4ax.com>, Rob Browning
> > > > >And the fact is, women in anime are generally portrayed better than
> > > > >men, and are not bound to the roles of women in real life Japan. In
> > > >
> > > > Yes, if by "better" you mean "getting constantly raped and/or having
> > > > tits the size of their heads."
> > >
> > > I really suggest you watch something other than porn.
> >
> > Unfortunatly, the majority of all anime has large amounts of fan
service, even
> > the "classic" anime movies. It's extremely difficult to find anime that
is not
> > rated NC-17 or R.
>
> Maybe you need glasses.
>
> Just as a casual observation, in the huge Anime rack in the local
> PG/PG-13 for movies) with a decent sizes dose of lower ratings (the
> G/PG equivilents). the Higher ratings (16-up equivlent to an R) come
> in third, with the "Must be an adult to purchase" (the equivilent to
> NC-17) being almost non-existance.
>
> Compare that to the movie racks for Comedy, drama, and sci-fi horror.
> and you will see a similiar breakdown of G/PG-PG-13/R/and NC-17
> movies.
Okay, but how do you know the store's selection is an accurate
representation of the relative quantities of available movies and
anime with each rating?
RelMark
John Cable
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> In rec.arts.anime.misc John D. Ford <agent...@yay.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The fact that Japan is astonishingly more sexist than the United
> > States isn't really up for debate. This doesn't necessarily equate to
> > "every salaryman wants to rape schoolgirls," but nobody's making that
> > assertion, as far as I know. But let me ask you this: do you think
> > people could get away with forming hobbyist clubs around lolita
> > complexes in the U.S.? Hell, the age of consent in Japan is 14!!
> > Bear in mind, though, I don't doubt we're going down the same road;
> > Britney Spears alone seems responsible for pushing the
> > age-appropriateness of hip huggers and midriffs to the single-digit
> > range.
>
> Yeah, I have to wonder sometimes... MTV tells me what is cool. MTV
> shows Britney Spears (underage) dressed like some boy's wet dream as a slutty
> Catholic Schoolgirl. Therefore, according to MTV, it's cool to think of
> underage girls as sex objects? Eh? Yeah, according to MTV it's always
> been cool to think of women as sex objects, but at least in the past, they
> "of age."
Then again, anime is also getting popular in this country. Sailor
Moon is mostly nude 14 year olds with skirts that barely clear their
asses, and some people are downright rabid about it. It wouldn't
surprise me to see some anime fans who actually liked Britney Spears
(some people actually admit it).
John Cable
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> "Dead Kennedys - California Uber Alles.mp3" <jtc...@home.com> wrote in message news:<xKSq8.220461$Gf.20...@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...
> > "Torajima" <Tora...@nospam.mindspring.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > > In article <2simaucph3hv35taj...@4ax.com>, Rob Browning
> > > > >And the fact is, women in anime are generally portrayed better than
> > > > >men, and are not bound to the roles of women in real life Japan. In
> > > >
> > > > Yes, if by "better" you mean "getting constantly raped and/or having
> > > > tits the size of their heads."
> > >
> > > I really suggest you watch something other than porn.
> >
> > Unfortunatly, the majority of all anime has large amounts of fan service, even
> > the "classic" anime movies. It's extremely difficult to find anime that is not
> > rated NC-17 or R.
>
> Maybe you need glasses.
I guess you'd have to have glasses, if you didn't need glasses, to see
a "YRV" rating as anything but "NOT FOR KIDS." Like glasses so thick,
you couldn't see anything anymore.
Because the majority of anime that people seem to love IS violent or
has some sort of objectification or exploitation that wouldn't be for
kids by most standards.
> Just as a casual observation, in the huge Anime rack in the local
> Suncoast the most common rating is 12 and 13-UP (the equivilent of
> PG/PG-13 for movies) with a decent sizes dose of lower ratings (the
> G/PG equivilents). the Higher ratings (16-up equivlent to an R) come
> in third, with the "Must be an adult to purchase" (the equivilent to
> NC-17) being almost non-existance.
>
> Compare that to the movie racks for Comedy, drama, and sci-fi horror.
> and you will see a similiar breakdown of G/PG-PG-13/R/and NC-17
> movies.
90% of the anime at Blockbuster is hyperviolent stuff porn. Even the
shitty anime comedy (0% of which is funny, Tenchi and Ranma 1/2, ugh)
has a lot of nudity in it, and badly drawn at that.
John D. Ford
wrote:
>Yeah, I have to wonder sometimes... MTV tells me what is cool. MTV
>shows Britney Spears (underage) dressed like some boy's wet dream as a slutty
>Catholic Schoolgirl. Therefore, according to MTV, it's cool to think of
>underage girls as sex objects? Eh? Yeah, according to MTV it's always
>been cool to think of women as sex objects, but at least in the past, they
>"of age."
>
>I really don't understand Britney Spears at all. She's apparentally upset
>that parents think she's a bad influence on their young daughters. She's
>supposed to be "innocent" and sweet, and yet sings things like "Oops, I did
>it again."
Probably not much to understand. I'd say she's at the whim of her
producers.
>I wasn't offended. In fact I was a bit amused :) One thing I learned
>while traveling is not be offended easily...
>
>I find that many stereotypes have a grain of truth in them. It's being
>willing and able to look beyond the stereotype that's the important thing.
Oh, always. It doesn't hurt to consider the stereotypes we create for
ourselves. Or to lament the fact that they have been created.
John Cable
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> In rec.arts.anime.misc John Cable <jcc...@comcast.nethurf> wrote:
> > Like Wings of Hominig... oh yeah.
>
> > How about Perfect Blue. Oh.
>
> > Akira? Oops, one of the only female characters is almost raped.
>
> Rape isn't considered porn.
Except for the rapes in hentai, you forgot to say.
> > Ghost in the Shell? Almost nothing but nudity, plus dismemberment
> > fetish stuff at the end there, highly pornographic.
>
> I don't know about you, but I certainly don't find dismemberment
> pornographic.
It was fetishistic. If you feature a totally nude women having her
arms ripped off, I don't know what else you could call that.
> Is there pornographic anime? Yes.
>
> Is there fanservice in some anime? Yes.
>
> Does all anime have fanservice in it? No.
>
> Is all anime pornographic? No.
Is most anime inferior to everything else? Yes.
Is the fanbase of anime primarily pretentious, childish hipsters who
have some kind of vaguely disturbing obsession with preferring
animation to actual real life and REALITY? A morbidly obsese, greasy,
salsa-stained YES.
> Let's play a little game. You name an anime title that has any fanservice
> in it, and I'll name two titles that don't have any fanservice(*) whatsoever.
>
> You've listed 3 titles above, so I'll list 6:
> * Laputa
> * Totoro
> * Nausicaa
> * Porco Rosso
> * Whispers Of The Heart
> * Grave Of The Fireflies
Grave of the Boringflies just sucked, and shouldn't be used as an
example of anything. Poor friendly Japanese people, being attacked
just because they were planning to wipe out the entire world with germ
warfare. "Geneva Convention? WHAT'S THAT?"
I wonder if you know what the Geneva Convention is. Or if you'd tell
someone that you didn't know what it was, just before torturing them
to death. Because that's what your Grave of the Fireflies heroes
would do. No fanservice maybe, but evil country DEFINITELY. A
country so completely evil that a Nazi(!!!!!) had to step in and say
"you guys are way too fucking evil here." Then 50 years later, a
bunch of pussy teenagers cry themselves into a self-imposed "art
expert" status just from watching Grave of the Fireflies.
Pretty convenient that you actually list stuff from Miyazaki too, the
guy who actually fucking SAID that most anime is exploitive and overly
violent or sexist, and doesn't really like a lot of modern anime. So
of course his movies won't have "fanservice" crap, because he doesn't
want to sell to the pretentious college students who want to act grown
up and watch "grown up cartoons," but not grown up movies. Miyazaki
agrees with me, and he doesn't agree with YOU.
Name one anime movie without fanservice, and I can list 20 great
American movies with no "fanservice," or exploitation or
objectification of women, which is not a very good ratio! (Note to
anime fans who obviously don't watch real movies other than The
Matrix: nudity doesn't count, but then again you'd probably be
totally confused if someone explained it to you).
Roshni Kasumo
--
Come have a look?
Roshni Kasumo's School Of The Penguin Mambo
(http://members.tripod.com/roshnikasumo)
"Doug Jacobs" <dja...@rawbw.com> wrote in message
news:uaq2vhd...@corp.supernews.com...
> In rec.arts.anime.misc John Cable <jcc...@comcast.nethurf> wrote:
> > Like Wings of Hominig... oh yeah.
>
> > How about Perfect Blue. Oh.
<snip>
> (*) Of course, the term fanservice' is a bit vague... Nudity of any sort
> is generally understood to be fanservice, but what about shows like Ping
> Pong Club or Crayon Shin-chan - which contain nudity, but you're probably
> not going to enjoy it :) Also, what about Battle Athletes (OAV or TV)?
No
> nudity, but lots of people claim it's non-stop fanservice. (Maybe I'm
just
> not a leg man...) Then there's the original Dirty Pair - arguably no
> fanservice.
>
> Your turn.
Not to mention fanservice isn't just nudity, just the most common type. Lots
of shoujo manga have fanservice, sutble and otherwise.
Ethan Hammond
>
> "Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > Dead Kennedys - California Uber Alles.mp3 wrote:
> > > > > Yes, if by "better" you mean "getting constantly raped and/or having
> > > > > tits the size of their heads."
> > > >
> > > > I really suggest you watch something other than porn.
> > >
> > > Unfortunatly, the majority of all anime has large amounts of fan service,
> even
> > > the "classic" anime movies. It's extremely difficult to find anime that is
> not
> > > rated NC-17 or R.
> >
> > But not as hard as trying to find some grey matter inside of your head.
>
> So you want to suck the cock of childish "mature" cartoons for kids in Japan to
> look cool is what you are saying. I'm afraid I really do like anime more than
> you, in that case. I enjoy the very little good anime to catch something else
> that will interest me.
>
> It's too bad you're so retarded that you find "art" in stupid porn cartoons.
Its too bad you keep coming back so I have to add new addresses to my killfile.
Selaboc
> > > Unfortunatly, the majority of all anime has large amounts of fan
> service, even
> > > the "classic" anime movies. It's extremely difficult to find anime that
> is not
> > > rated NC-17 or R.
> >
> > Maybe you need glasses.
> >
> > Just as a casual observation, in the huge Anime rack in the local
> > Suncoast the most common rating is 12 and 13-UP (the equivalent of
> > PG/PG-13 for movies) with a decent sizes dose of lower ratings (the
> > G/PG equivilents). the Higher ratings (16-up equivlent to an R) come
> > in third, with the "Must be an adult to purchase" (the equivilent to
> > NC-17) being almost non-existance.
> >
> > Compare that to the movie racks for Comedy, drama, and sci-fi horror.
> > and you will see a similiar breakdown of G/PG-PG-13/R/and NC-17
> > movies.
>
> Okay, but how do you know the store's selection is an accurate
> representation of the relative quantities of available movies and
> anime with each rating?
How do you know it isn't (it's a big store that is part of a big chain
of stores, it's certainly representative of what is commercially
available and therfore a representation of what is "easy to find").
The post I was responding to made an assertion with no facts to back
it up. I threw out an observation of the real world that showed
something completely different than the posters assertion. So the
choices are:
1) provide proof that the real-world observation is not an accurate
representation (hint: saying it, doesn't make it so)
or
2) Provide proof that the original assertion (that non-R/NC-17 Anime
is difficult to find) as some basis in reality (Hint: Again, saying it
does not make it so).
So far noone has provided anything other than opinion which real-world
observation has show to be inaccurate.
Selaboc
> > > Unfortunatly, the majority of all anime has large amounts of fan service, even
> > > the "classic" anime movies. It's extremely difficult to find anime that is not
> > > rated NC-17 or R.
> >
> > Maybe you need glasses.
>
> I guess you'd have to have glasses, if you didn't need glasses, to see
> a "YRV" rating as anything but "NOT FOR KIDS." Like glasses so thick,
> you couldn't see anything anymore.
So that's your excuse for missing all the 7-up and 13-up ratings on
the boxes Hmmm?
> Because the majority of anime that people seem to love IS violent or
> has some sort of objectification or exploitation that wouldn't be for
> kids by most standards.
Even if true, that does not equate to non-R/NC-17 anime as being
"difficult to find".
> > Just as a casual observation, in the huge Anime rack in the local
> > Suncoast the most common rating is 12 and 13-UP (the equivilent of
> > PG/PG-13 for movies) with a decent sizes dose of lower ratings (the
> > G/PG equivilents). the Higher ratings (16-up equivlent to an R) come
> > in third, with the "Must be an adult to purchase" (the equivilent to
> > NC-17) being almost non-existance.
> >
> > Compare that to the movie racks for Comedy, drama, and sci-fi horror.
> > and you will see a similiar breakdown of G/PG-PG-13/R/and NC-17
> > movies.
>
> 90% of the anime at Blockbuster is hyperviolent stuff porn.
Prove it.
> Even the
> shitty anime comedy (0% of which is funny, Tenchi and Ranma 1/2, ugh)
> has a lot of nudity in it, and badly drawn at that.
No more than the average PG-13 movie which, when it has nudity it is
ACTUAL people instead of "bad drawings". Again, put your glasses on
and check the ratings on the boxes and then PROVE that it is difficult
to find anime that isn't R/NC-17 material.
Selaboc
> > > Akira? Oops, one of the only female characters is almost raped.
> >
> > Rape isn't considered porn.
>
> Except for the rapes in hentai, you forgot to say.
But the discussion wasn't about Henti. Is Akira Hentai? I don't know
of any idiot that would say it is.
> Is most anime inferior to everything else? Yes.
In your opinion. A statement so broad is also one easy to disprove
(hint: people who make such absolute statement only rove one thing:
their own lack of knowlege about what they are talking about). Is
Anime inferior to Barney? No. There you go Anime is not inferior to
*EVERYTHING* else.
> Name one anime movie without fanservice, and I can list 20 great
> American movies with no "fanservice," or exploitation or
> objectification of women, which is not a very good ratio!
On the other hand, 20 (or even more) American movies WITH
explotation/objectification of women can just as easily be named to
match you list of 20, so such a excercise really proves nothing other
than how many movies we can name.
> (Note to
> anime fans who obviously don't watch real movies other than The
> Matrix: nudity doesn't count, but then again you'd probably be
> totally confused if someone explained it to you).
In that case, do you extend that definition of Nudity not counting to
Anime? or are you going to be a hypocrit?
Metlhd3138
Ever seen Otaku No Video? And Cowboy Bebop is more or less a comedy (mushroom
samba, toys in the attic, cowboy funk) even in the "serious" eps (spike telling
faye she sings off key)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Proof Liberals are idiots pt1: "It takes a village to raise a child"-President
Clinton
Chris Mattern
>
> No fanservice at all in robotech,,nuff said
Eh? You need to watch it again. There's not much, but it's
there--mostly shower scenes.
Chris Mattern
Metlhd3138
>
>Eh? You need to watch it again. There's not much, but it's
>there--mostly shower scenes
Yeah,,but dont you just see people's faces during the shower scenes?
Chris Mattern
It's been so long since I've seen Robotech proper, I don't
remember. I think you see a little bit more than faces.
In the original Japanese Macross/Southern Cross/Mospaeda,
you see a *lot* more than just faces, but a lot of that
had to get cut to make US broadcast standards.
Chirs Mattern
John Cable
<roshy...@yahoo.com> LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
Well, Agent cut everything after the sig. But this guy said something
about fanservice, pulling a Comic Book Store Guy.
Anyway, this guy needs to get his posts in order. The sig was at the
top, above the quotes, and then the reply was below that. What the
hell was going on here?
John Cable
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> John Cable <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message news:<520rauk5qfiv2p8lo...@4ax.com>...
>
> > > > Akira? Oops, one of the only female characters is almost raped.
> > >
> > > Rape isn't considered porn.
> >
> > Except for the rapes in hentai, you forgot to say.
>
> But the discussion wasn't about Henti.
He said "rape isn't considered porn." DUH. That's so fucking
obvious. Especially since, if they put rapes in their porn, the
Japanese apparently DO consider it.
Doug Jacobs
Which were cut from Robotech. Remember, he said "Robotech". Granted, the
original shows did have some fanservice in them...
Dead Kennedys - California Uber Alles.mp3
> > Like Wings of Hominig... oh yeah.
>
> > How about Perfect Blue. Oh.
>
> > Akira? Oops, one of the only female characters is almost raped.
>
> Rape isn't considered porn.
Anime is porn.
> > Ghost in the Shell? Almost nothing but nudity, plus dismemberment
> > fetish stuff at the end there, highly pornographic.
>
> I don't know about you, but I certainly don't find dismemberment
> pornographic.
Anime fans jack off to it anyway.
> Is there pornographic anime? Yes.
>
> Is there fanservice in some anime? Yes.
>
> Does all anime have fanservice in it? No.
>
> Is all anime pornographic? No.
All anime is pornographic.
Dead Kennedys - California Uber Alles.mp3
> >
> > I guess you'd have to have glasses, if you didn't need glasses, to see
> > a "YRV" rating as anything but "NOT FOR KIDS." Like glasses so thick,
> > you couldn't see anything anymore.
>
> So that's your excuse for missing all the 7-up and 13-up ratings on
> the boxes Hmmm?
Somehow, you keep missing the quote in his sig.
"I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
- Hayao Miyazaki
All of your ignorance and stupidity cannot shield you from the fact that anime
is disgustingly pornographic, and stupid.
> > Because the majority of anime that people seem to love IS violent or
> > has some sort of objectification or exploitation that wouldn't be for
> > kids by most standards.
>
> Even if true, that does not equate to non-R/NC-17 anime as being
> "difficult to find".
But since it's the minority of all anime, it is. Maybe what you are saying is
that anime is overrated. It certainly is, by screaming slobbering childish
anime fans.
Inu-Yasha
feel that 'dissing' people on the internet is an exercise in intelligence.
Why not leave the pople who like anime and manga alone unless they attack
you? IMHO (note that), you and your relatives and your net buddies are
perfect examples of the worst kind of American, you personify the stereotype
"Ugly American". Look at your sig, you want to go around burning or having
burned peoples gods? Have their Kings killed? Subjigate your suffering?
What a load of bilge!! But from this, I can see whay if you don't like
anime or manga, therefore anime or manga is no good and should be
eradicated.
Inu-Yasha
Feh!
I took you guys out of the kilfile bucket, and I guess I'm going to have to
stuff you back in there.
Inu-Yasha
Inu-Yasha
Feh!
"Selaboc" <c64...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c20e9e9.02040...@posting.google.com...
Inu-Yasha
> "Doug Jacobs" <dja...@rawbw.com> wrote in message
> news:uaq2vhd...@corp.supernews.com...
> > In rec.arts.anime.misc John Cable <jcc...@comcast.nethurf> wrote:
> > > Like Wings of Hominig... oh yeah.
> >
> > > How about Perfect Blue. Oh.
> >
> > > Akira? Oops, one of the only female characters is almost raped.
> >
> > Rape isn't considered porn.
>
>
> > > Ghost in the Shell? Almost nothing but nudity, plus dismemberment
> > > fetish stuff at the end there, highly pornographic.
> >
> > I don't know about you, but I certainly don't find dismemberment
> > pornographic.
>
>
> > Is there pornographic anime? Yes.
> >
> > Is there fanservice in some anime? Yes.
> >
> > Does all anime have fanservice in it? No.
> >
> > Is all anime pornographic? No.
>
> --
> Jissough :)
> www.suntimes.com/ebert/greatmovies/sho-sunday-ebert171.html
>
> Burn your gods and kill the king
> Subjugate your suffering
> Dead heart in a dead world
>
>
>
Golly, I don't know how you do it for post after post. Maybe we should make
you king, oops, I forgot your sig.
Inu-Yasha
Feh!
Metlhd3138
>burned peoples gods? Have their Kings killed? Subjigate your suffering?
>What a load of bilge!!
Thats from a heavy metal song,,you do NOT want to insult us metal fans,,no im
not one of their friends, just someone SICK of seeing metal get a bad rap
especially a few days after Megadeth called it quits.
"Sex, death and money, makes this wicked world go round, sex, death, and money,
its the price we pay in dragontown!"
Ethan Hammond
> But the discussion wasn't about Henti. Is Akira Hentai? I don't know
> of any idiot that would say it is.
Well Tetsuo does have an orgy in the manga. Kaori is the only girl who
survives and that is how they hook up, its quite a sweet story.
John Cable
> The main thing I can't understand about you and your relatives is why you
> feel that 'dissing' people on the internet is an exercise in intelligence.
We don't. Eventually, some anime fan proves one way or another that
they're ignorant (it's pretty easy to find out how). Everyone who
agrees with us isn't a relative, though. They're actual people with
free wills and mental processes.
When the anime fan proves through whatever means that they can't
comprehend any rational thought that doesn't agree with their
preprogrammed, dangerously sheeplike mindset, then there's really no
point in proving anything to them. You could prove anything at all to
some anime fans, and they'd still deny it, no matter how true it was
(note the explaination and reexplaination of certain things to them,
which they still refuse to accept). This is something we know,
because we've learned this through pure observation, which is more
than I can say for any otaku. Most of them can't really observe
anything in real life, unless it's a cartoon of some kind.
[snip plonk]
Spank. Can't deal with the pressure, stay out of the nuclear
explosion.
--
Nepchewn "John 'Creexul' Cable" Salad (AIM name: Jhoh Cable)
http://animehistory.keenspace.com
Because webcomics are ALWAYS so very original.
"I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
John Cable
It's called "being ridden." It's what happens when you have nothing
to say, but say something anyway. e.g. Your post right here. You're
being baited with minimal effort.
> Maybe we should make
> you king, oops, I forgot your sig.
A Nevermore quote? What does that have to do with anything?
I'm sure if he put a quote to a Rolling Stones song, you'd say
something like "SO ARE YOU REALLY A MONKEY MAN OR WHAT?" Because you
wouldn't recognize music that isn't elevator muzak J-pop.
Jiro
"John Cable" <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message
SIMILAR TO THE EXPLOSION PRODUCED WHEN I HIT HIM WITH A BIG BOOT?
--
JIRO - WEASLING HIS WAY INTO EACH THREAD
The Police - Synchronicity I.mp3
> Golly, I don't know how you do it for post after post.
It's like 5 posts, plus I am totally blazed so I have super powerful trolling
powers which are obviously working very well.
> Maybe we should make you king, oops, I forgot your sig.
If I was king, I would create anarchy. That's the meaning of that quote. But
mostly it's about burning your gods.
The Police - Synchronicity I.mp3
YES.
John Cable
Hopefully, yes! :)!
I think that dude needs a big boot. Along with a lot of pretentious,
hipper-than-you-dude anime fans.
--
Nepchewn "John 'Creexul' Cable" Salad (AIM name: Jhoh Cable)
http://animehistory.keenspace.com
Because webcomics are ALWAYS so very original.
"I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
Homyguy Z
"John Cable" <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message
> > you king, oops, I forgot your sig.
>
> A Nevermore quote? What does that have to do with anything?
>
> I'm sure if he put a quote to a Rolling Stones song, you'd say
> something like "SO ARE YOU REALLY A MONKEY MAN OR WHAT?" Because you
> wouldn't recognize music that isn't elevator muzak J-pop.
I've noticed that some people get so frustrated that they try to use your
sig to insult you. A bunch of different sigs, too. I even remember somebody
saying, "No wonder they're violent, look at the music they quote in their
sig" or something like that.
-Homyguy Z
Kev!
What was the point of this thread?
--
"I see!"
said the blind man,
to his deaf son,
as he peed into the wind.
"It's all coming back to me now!"
Jiro
"John Cable" <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message
IF SOMEONE (YOU) WOULD SUMMARIZE ALL THIS CRAP FOR ME, I MIGHT, AS I'M
CURRENTLY FAR TOO LAZY TO READ ALL THIS GAGA!
--
JIRO - WOULD MOST LIKELY SPEW AT ANIME FAN GAGANESS
Jiro
"Kev!" <kevin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91E8EF0C1...@198.99.146.10...
TELL ME YOU'RE NOT REFERRING TO ME, BRAH!
--
JIRO - MAY HAVE TO RUN WILD BEYOND AGFF...!
Ramen Junkie
news:y0Nr8.17218$2J2.4...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
YOUR SIG SAYS YOU ARE A FAG.
Homyguy Z
"Ramen Junkie" <lame...@yahoo.commie> wrote in message
news:FVZr8.5032$zD.247...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
"HOMOGUY Z OH Z LIKE IN DRAGONBALL Z YOU ARE SECRETLY AN ANIME FAN"
-Homyguy Z
Kev!
> TELL ME YOU'RE NOT REFERRING TO ME, BRAH!
>
hahaha, no, not specifically. It just looks like one of those arguments
where..:
"My penis is the biggest!"
>"Fu! No! Mine's the grandest!"
"BullSh! Mine's far superior!"
>"Mine's the biggest!"
"No, Mine is!"
>"No, Mine!"
"Mine!"
>"Mine!
"Mine is!"
>"Whatever!"
etc....
......
.....
....
...
..
.
Fata Morgana
>>
>
> HOMOGUY Z
<<snip>>
I said I was sorry for that, didn't I? What do you want, a pound of flesh? :)
Fata Morgana ~ yesh, make one little mistake and you're labeled for life
Selaboc
> "Selaboc" <c64...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > John Cable <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message
> > > > Maybe you need glasses.
> > >
> > > I guess you'd have to have glasses, if you didn't need glasses, to see
> > > a "YRV" rating as anything but "NOT FOR KIDS." Like glasses so thick,
> > > you couldn't see anything anymore.
> >
> > So that's your excuse for missing all the 7-up and 13-up ratings on
> > the boxes Hmmm?
>
> Somehow, you keep missing the quote in his sig.
Sig's are not usually relevant to discussions (what with the sig being
repeated regardless of what the discussion is).
> "I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
> overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
> - Hayao Miyazaki
That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand (you know whether
or not non-R/NC-17 anime is "hard to find"). Here's a clue for you,
something can be an embarrassment without being "R" or "NC-17" rated.
You post is an excellent example of an non-R/NC-17 rated embarrassment
:)
> All of your ignorance and stupidity cannot shield you from the fact that anime
> is disgustingly pornographic, and stupid.
saying it doesn't make it so (only the truely ignorant and stupid
believe that their saying something makes it reality). How about
PROVING that "anime is disgustingly pornographic, and stupid" (hint:
since you just made an absolute statement it only takes one example of
anime that is NOT "disgustingly pornographic, and stupid" to prove you
wrong. But than someone that wasn't ignorant and stupid would have
realize that BEFORE making such an ignorant and stupid statement).
> > > Because the majority of anime that people seem to love IS violent or
> > > has some sort of objectification or exploitation that wouldn't be for
> > > kids by most standards.
> >
> > Even if true, that does not equate to non-R/NC-17 anime as being
> > "difficult to find".
>
> But since it's the minority of all anime, it is.
Again, PROVE it's the minotiry if all Anime. Your saying it is doesn't
make it so. I've already shown you that in the REAL WORLD, non-R/NC-17
anime is easy to find (by giving a real world example of such). All
you've given is your word that it is hard to find, thus the only thing
you've proven is your own ignorance and stupidity. Have a nice day.
John Cable
Morgana) LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> "Homyguy Z" <chay...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message news:<5g%r8.18979$pe6.8...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>...
> >>
> >
> > HOMOGUY Z
> <<snip>>
>
> I said I was sorry for that, didn't I? What do you want, a pound of flesh? :)
FRESH HUMAN SOULS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
John Cable
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> "Dead Kennedys - California Uber Alles.mp3" <jtc...@home.com> wrote in message news:<CJpr8.244397$Gf.22...@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...
> > "Selaboc" <c64...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > John Cable <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message
> > > > > Maybe you need glasses.
> > > >
> > > > I guess you'd have to have glasses, if you didn't need glasses, to see
> > > > a "YRV" rating as anything but "NOT FOR KIDS." Like glasses so thick,
> > > > you couldn't see anything anymore.
> > >
> > > So that's your excuse for missing all the 7-up and 13-up ratings on
> > > the boxes Hmmm?
> >
> > Somehow, you keep missing the quote in his sig.
>
> Sig's are not usually relevant to discussions
Dodge. Mine is extremely relevant, and the only reason someone (like
you) wouldn't address it is because they can't.
You can't.
You lose.
--
Nepchewn "John 'Creexul' Cable" Salad (AIM name: Jhoh Cable)
http://animehistory.keenspace.com
Because webcomics are ALWAYS so very original.
"I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
Homyguy Z
"Fata Morgana" <nunyabid...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0bda62.02040...@posting.google.com...
Oh, I wasn't really referring to anyone in particular. Just following up on
the joke.
-Homyguy Z
Selaboc
> > > Somehow, you keep missing the quote in his sig.
> >
> > Sig's are not usually relevant to discussions
>
> Dodge. Mine is extremely relevant, and the only reason someone (like
> you) wouldn't address it is because they can't.
>
> You can't.
>
> You lose.
For snipping the entirety of my post and only address the irrelevant
sig discussion you prove your self a complete moron lacking any
coherent argument. You lose moron, Next.
John Cable
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> John Cable <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message news:<d8o3bugnjgutvmaur...@4ax.com>...
>
> > > > Somehow, you keep missing the quote in his sig.
> > >
> > > Sig's are not usually relevant to discussions
> >
> > Dodge. Mine is extremely relevant, and the only reason someone (like
> > you) wouldn't address it is because they can't.
> >
> > You can't.
> >
> > You lose.
>
> For snipping the entirety of my post
Only one part needed to be addressed. You are again just avoiding the
one single, extremely simple point up there. There's no excuse for
that, other than the fact that you can't possibly counter it.
It's still there, and you're still ignoring it.
I absolutely dare you to prove it wrong. I dare you to say that the
majority of people in this country would really be interested in
watching anime.
ZoqFotPik
> Only one part needed to be addressed. You are again just avoiding the
> one single, extremely simple point up there.
On that note, I still have not seen you properly reply to the poster
who challenged you to name more anime with excessive fanservice than
he could name without...
> I absolutely dare you to prove it wrong. I dare you to say that the
> majority of people in this country would really be interested in
> watching anime.
I will say it. There is anime out there to appeal to every possible
interest. If it was localized well and marketed properly, I see no
reason that it would not be accepted. So far, what has not been cut
up and marketed to children has been given limited theatrical release
and gone largely unadvertised, and for the most part, none of it has
been well dubbed. That makes for a rather significant obstacle to
general acceptance.
Selaboc
> On 9 Apr 2002 04:45:58 -0700, c64...@hotmail.com (Selaboc)
> LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
>
> > John Cable <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message news:<d8o3bugnjgutvmaur...@4ax.com>...
> >
> > > > > Somehow, you keep missing the quote in his sig.
> > > >
> > > > Sig's are not usually relevant to discussions
> > >
> > > Dodge. Mine is extremely relevant, and the only reason someone (like
> > > you) wouldn't address it is because they can't.
> > >
> > > You can't.
> > >
> > > You lose.
> >
> > For snipping the entirety of my post
>
> Only one part needed to be addressed.
Ah yes, the battle cry of the loser "I didn't need to address the rest
because I'm incapable of addressing the rest. You are avoid ALL the
points except for one extremely insignificant one because you can't
possible counter them.
> You are again just avoiding the
> one single, extremely simple point up there. There's no excuse for
> that, other than the fact that you can't possibly counter it.
Keep telling yourself that as you prove how much a loser you are by
avoiding all the relevant points. But to reiterate for your
edification, the points that were being dicussed was whether or not
non-R/NC-17 rated anime was easy to find. The irrelevant sig quote
that you keep harping on (becuase you are too much a loser to address
the real issue) had nothing to do with anime ratings.
> It's still there, and you're still ignoring it.
here is the quote:
> "I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
> overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
> - Hayao Miyazaki
What does that have to do with what was being discussed (the
availability of non-R/NC-17 rated anime)? how am I ignoring something
that has nothing to do with what was being discussed (the availability
of non-R/NC-17 rated anime). Is there something about that quote you'd
like me to discuss? And is it in any way relevant to the conversation
at hand (the availability of non-R/NC-17 rated anime)
> I absolutely dare you to prove it wrong. I dare you to say that the
> majority of people in this country would really be interested in
> watching anime.
Did I ever claim otherwise?
I don't recall ever claiming the majority of people ion this country
would really be interested in anime.
Can you please point me to where I made such a claim? Oh wait, that's
just you showing the rest of us how much a moron you are, nevermind.
And what, exactly does that quote have to do with the topic at hand
(you know, the availability of non-R/NC-17 rated anime)?
As to your pathetic challenge. Why would I say that the majoriy of
people in this county (I'm assuming USA since you didn't specify) be
interested in anime? the majority of people in this country thinks
anime is cartoons and as the morjority are not interested in cartoons,
they certainly wouldn't be any more interested in foreign cartoons.
But again, what did that have to do with the topic we were dicussing?
(you know, the availability of non-R/NC-17 rated anime)
John Cable
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> John Cable <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message news:<9gr9bu0a6irsg79lk...@4ax.com>...
> > I absolutely dare you to prove it wrong. I dare you to say that the
> > majority of people in this country would really be interested in
> > watching anime.
>
> I will say it. There is anime out there to appeal to every possible
> interest. If it was localized well and marketed properly, I see no
> reason that it would not be accepted. So far, what has not been cut
> up and marketed to children has been given limited theatrical release
> and gone largely unadvertised, and for the most part, none of it has
> been well dubbed. That makes for a rather significant obstacle to
> general acceptance.
I remember they already tried what you suggested, a year or two ago.
I don't remember everyone I know rushing out to see Princess Mononoke.
I don't remember everyone making a huge deal out of it, like the
college kids with disposable income always would. Your worldview
doesn't seem well rooted in anything, and I have no clue where you get
the ideas you come up with. If you were right, someone other than
other anime fans would agree with you.
If you're going to talk about bringing anime to America, you have to
seriously address its faults. And you are obviously not interested in
that, and are happy to whitewash right over them. The people who make
anime will admit to them. You won't.
John Cable
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> John Cable <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message news:<9gr9bu0a6irsg79lk...@4ax.com>...
> > "I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
> > overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
> > - Hayao Miyazaki
>
> What does that have to do with what was being discussed (the
> availability of non-R/NC-17 rated anime)? how am I ignoring something
> that has nothing to do with what was being discussed (the availability
> of non-R/NC-17 rated anime). Is there something about that quote you'd
> like me to discuss? And is it in any way relevant to the conversation
> at hand (the availability of non-R/NC-17 rated anime)
If you're really going to say anything about anime other than "AKIRA
ROXXXX," you might have to start small. That quote is a good start.
You don't seem ready to confront it. Instead of realizing that the
quote answers your question, you pretend it doesn't. It's the last
ditch defense of a person who is in an unwinnable situation: denial.
That is you.
Here's the reason. If you feel like your delicate fantasy world is
about to collapse, it's for a good reason.
If you weren't obviously trying to avoid being wrong, it would be
pretty clear that the quote refers to the flaws of anime, the ones
that run deep, the one that explains that yes, a lot of anime seems to
be overly violent and sexist for absolutely no reason, so a lot of
anime here that you can find is usually either unrated, or rated R (a
"hard R" as they say in the REAL movie business). And it's not just
the violence. There is something deeply wrong in a lot of anime,
something that smacks of wrongness, a strange lack of merit, and in
many cases, a moral core. Not a "Moral Majority" knee-jerk kind of
morals, but an ability to tell when something should or shouldn't be
in this cartoon they're making. Most anime fans can't tell this or
won't, because they enjoy it on a carnal level and are affected by it
so deeply that it becomes more important than anything else to them.
Even if the anime isn't overly violent, it tries too hard to be
provocative, and couldn't be rated G anymore. It's not a good
attitude for any film maker to have. The rest, that break from the
pack, have to make an ACTIVE attempt for originality.
You are unable to comprehend words. You're aren't ready to deal with
reality. You're not in the same caliber as thinking people. You're
no longer allowed to try to argue with smart people.
Case: CLOSED.
--
Nepchewn "John 'Creexul' Cable" Salad (AIM name: Jhoh Cable)
http://animehistory.keenspace.com
Because webcomics are ALWAYS so very original.
"I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
Michael Lo
Case: OPENED
For animation (not just Japanese ones) an idea of a moral core is
rather meaningless. Animation has but one purpose and that
is to get the point across in a manner that has the audience reacting
appropriately in the fashion desired by the director. That's it,
nothing more and nothing less. Since Japanese animation is aimed solely
at a Japanese audience, it's for that audience to decide whether it
was an effective work. No matter what anyone in this newsgroup writes,
it has and should not have any bearing for something takes place outside
of your country. American companies purchase the right to the cartoons
and import them into North America, therefore the choice of selection is
culpable to them. Why aren't they importing G rated cartoons, there's
plenty of good ones over there to buy.
The only moral episodes involve placing material unsuitable for the
intended audience ie. depicting rape and murder in a children's show.
If material placement is suitable to the audience then just by that
it is morally acceptable. If you say that so many Japanese cartoons
smack of wrongness and you never say why then it's only your opinion
and meaningful only to you. If you insist on saying that and the shows
are morally valid under the principle I mentioned, then your opinion
is actually wrong in the fashion of someone who believes the world
is flat.
Do you know the background of Miyazaki whom you quoted from? You have
to keep it in mind before you use it. He comes from a hard left-wing
background and has strong views in that regards, he's hardly unbiased.
Lots of animators admire his work for their technical merit and the
effectiveness of his features to their intended audiences, they don't
agree with all his views outside of that. If an unbiased Japanese
authority takes a similar view to him, then I would give his opinion
notice.
You've made some arguments in your statment but why the ad hominem
attacks on other people? It only weakens your argument when you attack
a person. You should instead use point by point proofs and explanation.
Anything else isn't valid as an argument
One thing I've noticed is that nothing you've written has ever been
sent to rec.arts.animation where real animators Canadian and American
are as well as animation historians and fans who understand animation.
David Watson
> John Cable <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message news:<qcedbust3ns6j7mfc...@4ax.com>...
Michael: John Cable is a known troll. I might get tripped up by the new
ones, but try not to indulge the old ones, OK?
--
Dave Watson, Severed Heads Liberation Front (_Stretcher_ CD-R--sevcom.com)
Frezier Balzoff (aka Ottawa), Ontario, Canada Email--shlf [at] ncf [dot] ca
My music and anime webpage: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/
Viz *didn't* treat Video Girl Ai right on DVD. So boycott Viz Video.
Selaboc
> On 11 Apr 2002 10:42:28 -0700, c64...@hotmail.com (Selaboc)
> LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
>
> > John Cable <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message news:<9gr9bu0a6irsg79lk...@4ax.com>...
>
> > > "I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
> > > overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
> > > - Hayao Miyazaki
> >
> > What does that have to do with what was being discussed (the
> > availability of non-R/NC-17 rated anime)? how am I ignoring something
> > that has nothing to do with what was being discussed (the availability
> > of non-R/NC-17 rated anime). Is there something about that quote you'd
> > like me to discuss? And is it in any way relevant to the conversation
> > at hand (the availability of non-R/NC-17 rated anime)
>
> If you're really going to say anything about anime other than "AKIRA
> ROXXXX," you might have to start small. That quote is a good start.
> You don't seem ready to confront it. Instead of realizing that the
> quote answers your question, you pretend it doesn't. It's the last
> ditch defense of a person who is in an unwinnable situation: denial.
> That is you.
No, that would be you. You can keep crowing your false victories all
you want (But hey, I realize it's clearly the only thing that makes
your miserable life worth living, so have at it).
> Here's the reason. If you feel like your delicate fantasy world is
> about to collapse, it's for a good reason.
Nope, don't feel any such thing.
> If you weren't obviously trying to avoid being wrong,
I'm not the one who avoided the question by concentrating on an
insignificant sif quote. That would be YOU. I'm not the one who
snipped the entirety of my opponents response so I could pretend that
my opponent DIDN'T in fact respond to the challenge that I made in the
previous post. Again, that would be you. Those and the things that
prove beyond a shadow of a down how much a loser YOU are.
> it would be
> pretty clear that the quote refers to the flaws of anime, the ones
> that run deep, the one that explains that yes, a lot of anime seems to
> be overly violent and sexist for absolutely no reason,
The quote says no such thing. the quote says that the spread anime
overseas might me embarrassing. there are a myriad of things in this
world that one can find embarrassing. For example, the way you running
away from what your opponent writes you should find embarrassing. But
then I suppose losers like you don't embarras easily.
> so a lot of
> anime here that you can find is usually either unrated,
Nope, nearly every anime box in Suncoast has a rating on it. so once
again, you prove you know not of what you speak.
> or rated R (a
> "hard R" as they say in the REAL movie business).
Again, Nope, just look in any video store at the ratings on the
package.
> And it's not just
> the violence. There is something deeply wrong in a lot of anime,
> something that smacks of wrongness, a strange lack of merit, and in
> many cases, a moral core. Not a "Moral Majority" knee-jerk kind of
> morals, but an ability to tell when something should or shouldn't be
> in this cartoon they're making.
That your opinion. you're welcome to it. but unless you care to get
into specifics about what is wrong (vague feelings of "wrongness"
don't lend themselves to rational debate).
> provocative, and couldn't be rated G anymore.
There are other ratings between G and R, you know. BTW, Most real
movies these days aren't rated G either.
I V
> For animation (not just Japanese ones) an idea of a moral core is rather
> meaningless. Animation has but one purpose and that is to get the point
> across in a manner that has the audience reacting appropriately in the
> fashion desired by the director. That's it, nothing more and nothing
> less. Since Japanese animation is aimed solely at a Japanese audience,
> it's for that audience to decide whether it was an effective work. No
> matter what anyone in this newsgroup writes, it has and should not have
> any bearing for something takes place outside of your country. American
Translation: You stupid Gaijin don't understand anime. ^_^ LOL
Seriously, though - do you really think the only relevant standard by
which to judge a work is how succesfully it communicates the author's
intended message to the intended audience?
[Snip]
> The only moral episodes involve placing material unsuitable for the
> intended audience ie. depicting rape and murder in a children's show. If
> material placement is suitable to the audience then just by that it is
> morally acceptable. If you say that so many Japanese cartoons smack of
But don't you think puerile sexism is unsuitable material for a work
intended for rational, humane adults? Doesn't the rampant sexism in anime
point to an artistic limitation on the part of those who produce the
stuff?
> wrongness and you never say why then it's only your opinion and
> meaningful only to you. If you insist on saying that and the shows are
> morally valid under the principle I mentioned, then your opinion is
> actually wrong in the fashion of someone who believes the world is flat.
Yes, but he (and others) have given examples of sexism severe enough to
undermine the artistic purpose of the work, even in anime that is
supposed to be classic stuff (Ghost in the Shell, Tenchi).
> Do you know the background of Miyazaki whom you quoted from? You have
> to keep it in mind before you use it. He comes from a hard left-wing
> background and has strong views in that regards, he's hardly unbiased.
'Biased' != 'has an opinion'. If Miyazaki let his unjustified personal
beliefs interfere with his judgement, he would be biased. What dubious
personal beliefs can you cite, and how do they bias his opinion?
> Lots of animators admire his work for their technical merit and the
> effectiveness of his features to their intended audiences, they don't
> agree with all his views outside of that. If an unbiased Japanese
> authority takes a similar view to him, then I would give his opinion
> notice.
Why not answer his criticism on its own merit? Argument from authority is
as much a fallacy as argument ad hominem.
[Snip]
--
"Mr I V Lenin, the Lenin of love,
Make me feel so fine,
With a hit of socialism,
Straight in the mainline." -- Rev Dr D Wayne Love
John Cable
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> John Cable <jcc...@comcast.netHURF> wrote in message news:<qcedbust3ns6j7mfc...@4ax.com>...
> > If you're really going to say anything about anime other than "AKIRA
> > ROXXXX," you might have to start small. That quote is a good start.
> > You don't seem ready to confront it. Instead of realizing that the
> > quote answers your question, you pretend it doesn't. It's the last
> > ditch defense of a person who is in an unwinnable situation: denial.
> > That is you.
>
> No, that would be you.
And this is why I've already won. I've already proved myself right,
and your main comeback is "NO YOU." Everyone already knows, if
they've been on the internet for more than a month, that it's the
lamest excuse of a post. I guess you don't yet.
--
Nepchewn "John 'Creexul' Cable" Salad (AIM name: Jhoh Cable)
http://animehistory.keenspace.com
Because webcomics are ALWAYS so very original.
"I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
John Cable
Lo) LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
Obviously, you've misunderstood.
If you went out and murdered a girl you were stalking, that would be
illegal. You'd do it because you have no moral core.
Everything I've previously stated proves you wrong before you even say
anything.
--
Nepchewn "John 'Creexul' Cable" Salad (AIM name: Jhoh Cable)
http://animehistory.keenspace.com
Because webcomics are ALWAYS so very original.
"I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
John Cable
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:40:38 +0100, Michael Lo wrote:
> > For animation (not just Japanese ones) an idea of a moral core is rather
> > meaningless. Animation has but one purpose and that is to get the point
> > across in a manner that has the audience reacting appropriately in the
> > fashion desired by the director. That's it, nothing more and nothing
> > less. Since Japanese animation is aimed solely at a Japanese audience,
> > it's for that audience to decide whether it was an effective work. No
> > matter what anyone in this newsgroup writes, it has and should not have
> > any bearing for something takes place outside of your country. American
>
> Translation: You stupid Gaijin don't understand anime. ^_^ LOL
>
> Seriously, though - do you really think the only relevant standard by
> which to judge a work is how succesfully it communicates the author's
> intended message to the intended audience?
> > Lots of animators admire his work for their technical merit and the
> > effectiveness of his features to their intended audiences, they don't
> > agree with all his views outside of that. If an unbiased Japanese
> > authority takes a similar view to him, then I would give his opinion
> > notice.
>
> Why not answer his criticism on its own merit? Argument from authority is
> as much a fallacy as argument ad hominem.
Your points are all good and perfectly valid, but I doubt they'll get
any response other than denial.
Of course, if you're not wrong, then there's no reason to not post!
--
Nepchewn "John 'Creexul' Cable" Salad (AIM name: Jhoh Cable)
http://animehistory.keenspace.com
Because webcomics are ALWAYS so very original.
"I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
Eric the Read
> Seriously, though - do you really think the only relevant standard by
> which to judge a work is how succesfully it communicates the author's
> intended message to the intended audience?
I'm not part of this whole silly debate, and I don't intend to be, but
this caught my eye, because it goes to the whole point of what art is
meant to be, in my mind.
There are those who think that art should be socially responsible--
that it should say something worth saying. The problem with that, of
course, is that there's no accepted standard of what's worth saying.
There are broad guidelines-- for instance, art involving sex with
minors is generally held to be abhorrent. But then you run into
problems with works of art like "Lolita".
Tolstoi said that art was a message that should be understood by
everyone. His view of 'success', with art, was that an illiterate
peasant could walk into a gallery, see a painting, and get what the
artist was trying to say. In the case of literature, obviously the
literacy requirement was waived, but not much else.
I've always felt that was too limiting, and came up with something
much like what you came up with-- if the artist has in mind a specific
audience, then it's okay if the man on the street doesn't get it, so
long as the people the art was made for do. For instance, there's a
SF book out now that has references to Sluggy Freelance, and it's okay
if the non-Sluggite readers don't get them, as long as the ones who
are supposed to get it, do.
Once it's satisfied that admittedly basic criterion, I don't see a
problem with anybody judging it on any other basis they care to, so
long as they're clear that it's *their* judgement, and only people who
agree with them should be bound by it.
> But don't you think puerile sexism is unsuitable material for a work
> intended for rational, humane adults?
It can be, but that's obviously not a universal judgement. It's
totally fair for you to say "I find this work puerile and sexist," but
not for you to say, "and if you don't, you're an idiot." Please note
that I'm NOT saying that's your position. I haven't been following
this debate, and in fact, I would like this subthread to veer out of
it into a more useful discussion of anime as art, if that's possible.
And "rational, human adults" can enjoy puerile sexism, too-- not as
daily fare, perhaps, but sometimes it's fun to turn your brain off and
laugh (or cry). How else to explain why people keep asking Arnold
Schwarzenegger to make movies?
> Doesn't the rampant sexism in anime
> point to an artistic limitation on the part of those who produce the
> stuff?
Only if they're incapable of producing other types of work, which
clearly they are not. Ergo, not a limitation as such.
> Yes, but he (and others) have given examples of sexism severe enough to
> undermine the artistic purpose of the work, even in anime that is
> supposed to be classic stuff (Ghost in the Shell, Tenchi).
I disagree that it's severe enough to undermine the artistic purpose
of those works-- in GiTS (both anime and manga), I think the message
is clearly communicated both in spite of and because of the sexism.
In Tenchi (the OAVs; I have neither seen, nor care to see, the TV
serieses), the sexism is annoying in spots, and amusing in others. In
any case, I didn't find it bad enough to distract from the overall
series, though I admit there's enough of the annoying sort to detract
somewhat from the overall series.
And, of course, I would probably disagree with you whether some specific
scenes or incidents were sexist, which is in itself an interesting
debate.
-=Eric
--
Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare.
-- Blair Houghton
Balthasar
"Eric the Read" <emsc...@frii.net> wrote in message
news:eto7knc7c...@fc.hp.com...
> I V <ivl...@gmx.co.uk> writes:
> > Seriously, though - do you really think the only relevant standard by
> > which to judge a work is how succesfully it communicates the author's
> > intended message to the intended audience?
>
> I'm not part of this whole silly debate, and I don't intend to be, but
> this caught my eye, because it goes to the whole point of what art is
> meant to be, in my mind.
Well, I don't really think this debate is silly. Right or wrong (re: anime
being sexist), it's something most anime fans would rather not think about,
which makes it worth discussing.
> There are those who think that art should be socially responsible--
> that it should say something worth saying.
I think this view might be more of a majority view these days.
The problem with that, of
> course, is that there's no accepted standard of what's worth saying.
> There are broad guidelines-- for instance, art involving sex with
> minors is generally held to be abhorrent. But then you run into
> problems with works of art like "Lolita".
Because there was a purpose. It's really the same line between "tasteful"
and "gratuitous." It wasn't just some guy having sex with a 14 (?) year old.
> Tolstoi said that art was a message that should be understood by
> everyone. His view of 'success', with art, was that an illiterate
> peasant could walk into a gallery, see a painting, and get what the
> artist was trying to say. In the case of literature, obviously the
> literacy requirement was waived, but not much else.
>
> I've always felt that was too limiting, and came up with something
> much like what you came up with-- if the artist has in mind a specific
> audience, then it's okay if the man on the street doesn't get it, so
> long as the people the art was made for do. For instance, there's a
> SF book out now that has references to Sluggy Freelance, and it's okay
> if the non-Sluggite readers don't get them, as long as the ones who
> are supposed to get it, do.
I would agree, except you're talking about an understanding of cultural
references. Depending on the bredth of a work, not understanding the
references can make things confusing (like when an anime character
sneezes...learned that one a while back). But what cultural references are
we missing when Ryoko runs around naked for seemingly no reason for an
entire eps? The scene where she was in the bath with the other
girls--tthough somewhat culturally motivated, could be easily assumed as
something the japanese do, whether you understand why or not. But it's not
the case with what were are arguing here.
> Once it's satisfied that admittedly basic criterion, I don't see a
> problem with anybody judging it on any other basis they care to, so
> long as they're clear that it's *their* judgement, and only people who
> agree with them should be bound by it.
But when you say that, you're accepting a sort of moral relativism, aren't
you? As long as this behavior is excepted by the japanese, we can't really
say it's sexist? Because Ghost in The Shell gets it's point across, we
should ignore the completely pointless scenes littered throughout the movie,
which can be classified as both sexist and fanservice? You don't see how
this diminishes the work? Or distracts from it?
> > But don't you think puerile sexism is unsuitable material for a work
> > intended for rational, humane adults?
>
> It can be, but that's obviously not a universal judgement. It's
> totally fair for you to say "I find this work puerile and sexist," but
> not for you to say, "and if you don't, you're an idiot."
I don't think that's anyone's genuine stance here.
Please note
> that I'm NOT saying that's your position. I haven't been following
> this debate, and in fact, I would like this subthread to veer out of
> it into a more useful discussion of anime as art, if that's possible.
>
> And "rational, human adults" can enjoy puerile sexism, too-- not as
> daily fare, perhaps, but sometimes it's fun to turn your brain off and
> laugh (or cry). How else to explain why people keep asking Arnold
> Schwarzenegger to make movies?
Who considers Arnold's movies a great work of art? Except, maybe,
Terminator, but that was more because he did what he does best in that
movie: acted like an automaton. I think part of the reason this discussion
is being had is because it is art. It's hard not to look at any form of
entertainment these days as being anything other than art.
> > Doesn't the rampant sexism in anime
> > point to an artistic limitation on the part of those who produce the
> > stuff?
>
> Only if they're incapable of producing other types of work, which
> clearly they are not. Ergo, not a limitation as such.
How is this so clear? You'd have to have provided some examples of animators
who have had both sexist and non sexist anime created.
> > Yes, but he (and others) have given examples of sexism severe enough to
> > undermine the artistic purpose of the work, even in anime that is
> > supposed to be classic stuff (Ghost in the Shell, Tenchi).
>
> I disagree that it's severe enough to undermine the artistic purpose
> of those works-- in GiTS (both anime and manga), I think the message
> is clearly communicated both in spite of and because of the sexism.
> In Tenchi (the OAVs; I have neither seen, nor care to see, the TV
> serieses), the sexism is annoying in spots, and amusing in others. In
> any case, I didn't find it bad enough to distract from the overall
> series, though I admit there's enough of the annoying sort to detract
> somewhat from the overall series.
Maybe our views differ on the point of Tenchi, but I've always seen it as
not having a grander point other than to make people laugh. How it
accomplishes this, though, is through the portrayal of the women chasing
Tenchi. It would be one thing if this anime were some sort of satire on
other anime, or other anime of this brand (one guy chased by many women), bu
t there is no indication in the OAV to give this a valid argument. If
anything, it's more of a reflection of his views.
> And, of course, I would probably disagree with you whether some specific
> scenes or incidents were sexist, which is in itself an interesting
> debate.
Maybe. Was there anything sexist about the way Ryoko and Aeka chased around
Tenchi?
Balthasar
--
Life contains but two tragedies. One is not to get your heart's desire; the
other is to get it.
--Socrates
John Cable
LOL!!!!!!!!!!! wrote:
> There are those who think that art should be socially responsible--
> that it should say something worth saying. The problem with that, of
> course, is that there's no accepted standard of what's worth saying.
> There are broad guidelines-- for instance, art involving sex with
> minors is generally held to be abhorrent. But then you run into
> problems with works of art like "Lolita".
Well, that's a story. Maybe I'm wrong, but if Lolita was
controversial, it's because an old character has sex with a minor, not
because there are extremely graphic sex scenes between them, and
Lolita is portrayed as an attractive character that people should be
attracted to. I could be wrong, though. I admit I haven't read it,
anyone can go ahead and correct me on this.
> Tolstoi said that art was a message that should be understood by
> everyone.
Well that doesn't match up with certain anime movies, which try to be
as dense as possible (Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Jin-Roh). Most anime
doesn't seem to have taken much from art of any form, and seems to
mistake confusing the audience for depth.
> I've always felt that was too limiting, and came up with something
> much like what you came up with-- if the artist has in mind a specific
> audience, then it's okay if the man on the street doesn't get it, so
> long as the people the art was made for do.
Well it's pretty clear who the target audience for anime is. A lot of
anime tries its hardest to appeal to this audience. The most famous
anime directors, from my detailed impressions, seem to be against
pandering specifically to these people. Anno and Miyazaki are who
come to mind, because I've heard comments from them, and they aren't
very "pro anime," even though they create anime. Does this make them
hypocrites?
> Once it's satisfied that admittedly basic criterion, I don't see a
> problem with anybody judging it on any other basis they care to, so
> long as they're clear that it's *their* judgement, and only people who
> agree with them should be bound by it.
What if some person sees anime, and is impressed by its potential, but
disappointed by its delivery?
I think Cowboy Bebop is the best example of the real potential for
anime, in so many ways. I'm hoping it's a sign of things to come,
because it's kind of sickening to see really pretentious anime be
hailed as whatever, just because it has good production values and a
muddy plot.
> And "rational, human adults" can enjoy puerile sexism, too-- not as
> daily fare, perhaps, but sometimes it's fun to turn your brain off and
> laugh (or cry). How else to explain why people keep asking Arnold
> Schwarzenegger to make movies?
Because it sells, and because a handful of the movies he's been in
have been pretty good. That's partially a problem with Hollywood, and
partially a desire by SOME people to see him in roles that he does
best. He's pretty ideal for some of the movies he's been in, so
that's why he gets cast. Of course, some of his movies are indeed
horrible.
And yes, there are some mindless action movies out there, or
"popcorn." But sexism isn't something that's sexy. It's something
that's spiteful. Maybe someone can jerk off to it, but that's
something else.
> Only if they're incapable of producing other types of work, which
> clearly they are not. Ergo, not a limitation as such.
Well, Japan is a pretty sexist society, so seeing rapes and
gratuitious nudity doesn't say to me, "well, they are just exercising
creativity." When I see it, I think "well, they found a reason to
have these nude chicks."
> I disagree that it's severe enough to undermine the artistic purpose
> of those works-- in GiTS (both anime and manga), I think the message
> is clearly communicated both in spite of and because of the sexism.
GITS, at least the anime, doesn't seem to have any purpose. There
doesn't seem to be anything meaningful about it. It's probably
another example of story being slashed and burned from the manga to
fit in an anime that's stylish in some sort, and that will sell.
> In Tenchi (the OAVs; I have neither seen, nor care to see, the TV
> serieses), the sexism is annoying in spots, and amusing in others.
Well, when the country seems so rife with sexism, it doesn't seem
funny to me. It also doesn't seem funny when they recycle the same
joke in different situations. Tittilation transcends humor, so no
matter if they say it's comedy, if it's not really funny, it's just
porn, unless the tittilation is intentionally weeded out of the
situation. Most of the time, in anime, it doesn't seem to be at all.
> And, of course, I would probably disagree with you whether some specific
> scenes or incidents were sexist, which is in itself an interesting
> debate.
But you said that some of the sexism in Tenchi is funny. So would
that be wrong on anyone's part, or just mine for not seeing Tenchi as
funny at all?
I don't think you should take my word for any of this though. I want
to see what John Ford would reply with.
--
Nepchewn "John 'Creexul' Cable" Salad (AIM name: Jhoh Cable)
http://animehistory.keenspace.com
Because webcomics are ALWAYS so very original.
"I think there is a chance that the spread of Japanese animation
overseas might only lead to embarrassment."
Metlhd3138
>anime, in so many ways.
I agree,,however (and this is kind of OT) the DVDs are a ripoff,,i mean,,they
cost $30 as opposed to the $20-25 Spy Game and Jay and Silent Bob Strike
Back,,now i think its obvious whats superior in those cases (CB doesnt even
offer an audio commentary track). However, i would be interested in purchasing
the movie when it comes to the US.
Ramen Junkie
news:20020413071402...@mb-fx.aol.com...
Buying anime in general is a rip off. 30 dollars for 3 episodes. At least
regular movie DVDs have gotten cheaper.
Lord Craxton
"Ramen Junkie" <lame...@yahoo.commie> wrote in message
Well, when you sell a DVD, you essentially sell unlimited access to the
content. The fans don't see this as a ripoff, in part because it's hard to
acquire the content any other way.
Basic business: What you have is worth whatever your customers will pay for
it.
-Lord Craxton
Dennis O'Connor
> Buying anime in general is a rip off.
Ah, poor baby,
don't make enough money
to indulge your hobbies, huh ?
Your obvious bitterness exposes
your subconcious realization
of what a failure your life is.
As the Rolling Stones sang,
"you can't always get what you want",
but that's because you're a loser. <chuckle>
--
Dennis O'Connor dm...@primenet.com
We don't become a rabid dog to destroy a rabid dog.
Fata Morgana
> >I think Cowboy Bebop is the best example of the real potential for
> >anime, in so many ways.
>
> I agree,,however (and this is kind of OT) the DVDs are a ripoff,,i mean,,they
> cost $30 as opposed to the $20-25 Spy Game and Jay and Silent Bob Strike
> Back,,
Man, where do you buy from? The Cowboy Bebop DVDs are priced at $25
(IIRC), and I personally got each and every one of them for under $18.
Fata Morgana
Ramen Junkie
news:a99uvf$44j$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
I guess so.
Ramen Junkie
news:a9a5he$kv0$1...@node21.cwnet.roc.gblx.net...
> "Ramen Junkie" <lame...@yahoo.commie> wrote ...
> > Buying anime in general is a rip off.
>
> Ah, poor baby,
> don't make enough money
> to indulge your hobbies, huh ?
>
> Your obvious bitterness exposes
> your subconcious realization
> of what a failure your life is.
>
> As the Rolling Stones sang,
> "you can't always get what you want",
> but that's because you're a loser. <chuckle>
This post is fantastic.
I V
> I V <ivl...@gmx.co.uk> writes:
>> Seriously, though - do you really think the only relevant standard by
>> which to judge a work is how succesfully it communicates the author's
>> intended message to the intended audience?
> There are those who think that art should be socially responsible-- that
> it should say something worth saying. The problem with that, of course,
> is that there's no accepted standard of what's worth saying. There are
> broad guidelines-- for instance, art involving sex with minors is
> generally held to be abhorrent. But then you run into problems with
> works of art like "Lolita".
I think you might want to distinguish between being socially responsible
and saying something worth saying. A kind of Wildean aestheticism would
admit that there is value to what art says, while absolutely rejecting the
idea that this value consists in the art being socially responsible, in
fact quite the opposite.
> Tolstoi said that art was a message that should be understood by
> everyone. His view of 'success', with art, was that an illiterate
> peasant could walk into a gallery, see a painting, and get what the
> artist was trying to say. In the case of literature, obviously the
> literacy requirement was waived, but not much else.
Tolstoy's 'What is art?' is one of the few books that have genuinely made
me feel sick. He has such an appalingly limited view of what the average
person could understand or appreciate. Having said that, the idea that art
should be relevant strikes me as true - if art isn't relevant to people's
lives, can it have any value?
[Snip a para I agree with]
> Once it's satisfied that admittedly basic criterion, I don't see a
> problem with anybody judging it on any other basis they care to, so long
> as they're clear that it's *their* judgement, and only people who agree
> with them should be bound by it.
Why on earth does this follow? Are you suggesting that there is never any
rational basis to criticize a piece of art, as long as it 'works' in the
eyes of some group of people? The fact that 'Heart of Darkness'
communicated lots of deep truths about the human condition to its
contemporary audience doesn't stop the message of the book being
undermined by its tacit racism. The fact that no-one noticed the racism of
the book until Chinua Achebe pointed it out, doesn't mean it wasn't always
there.
>> But don't you think puerile sexism is unsuitable material for a work
>> intended for rational, humane adults?
>
> It can be, but that's obviously not a universal judgement. It's totally
> fair for you to say "I find this work puerile and sexist," but not for
> you to say, "and if you don't, you're an idiot." Please note that I'm
Well, calling people idiots never makes for a good debating strategy. But
it might still be true... Or, less controversially, if something really is
peurile and sexist, that may interfere with its functioning as art, and
that is true whether or not some people recognise the sexism.
[Snip]
> And "rational, human adults" can enjoy puerile sexism, too-- not as
> daily fare, perhaps, but sometimes it's fun to turn your brain off and
> laugh (or cry). How else to explain why people keep asking Arnold
> Schwarzenegger to make movies?
A moral defect needn't interfere with the functioning of a work of art,
and even less so with a piece of entertaiment. But sometimes the
entertainment, in part, derives from, for example, producing a realistic
picture of human interaction (not in Arnie pics, admittedly, but romantic
dramas or comedys). In this sort of case, fanservice could well prevent
people's enjoyment. I can't stand 'Ally MacBeal' for just that reson.
>> Doesn't the rampant sexism in anime
>> point to an artistic limitation on the part of those who produce the
>> stuff?
>
> Only if they're incapable of producing other types of work, which
> clearly they are not. Ergo, not a limitation as such.
I'm not saying that everyone involved in anime produces peurile, sexist
work. But the fact that it is practically a given of the medium to include
material that interferes with the artistic economy of the work (i.e.,
fanservice), suggests that the limitation is in some way general to the
medium. I think that's the point of the Miyazaki quote in John Cable's sig
- whether it's a limitation of the producers or the fanbase or what have
you, fanservice is a genuine problem which anime fans needs to take
seriously, if they want to be taken seriously.
>> Yes, but he (and others) have given examples of sexism severe enough to
>> undermine the artistic purpose of the work, even in anime that is
>> supposed to be classic stuff (Ghost in the Shell, Tenchi).
>
> I disagree that it's severe enough to undermine the artistic purpose of
> those works-- in GiTS (both anime and manga), I think the message is
> clearly communicated both in spite of and because of the sexism. In
> Tenchi (the OAVs; I have neither seen, nor care to see, the TV
> serieses), the sexism is annoying in spots, and amusing in others. In
> any case, I didn't find it bad enough to distract from the overall
> series, though I admit there's enough of the annoying sort to detract
> somewhat from the overall series.
I think this is a slightly tricky question, because one needs to judge the
whole of the work. Although fanservice doesn't stop non-fanservice parts
from functioning well, I think there is a sense in which fanservice
detracts from the overall effectiveness of the work. It's hard to make
this explicit without getting into details of cases, though.
Michael Lo
> On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:40:38 +0100, Michael Lo wrote:
> > For animation (not just Japanese ones) an idea of a moral core is rather
> > meaningless. Animation has but one purpose and that is to get the point
> > across in a manner that has the audience reacting appropriately in the
> > fashion desired by the director. That's it, nothing more and nothing
> > less. Since Japanese animation is aimed solely at a Japanese audience,
> > it's for that audience to decide whether it was an effective work. No
> > matter what anyone in this newsgroup writes, it has and should not have
> > any bearing for something takes place outside of your country. American
>
> Translation: You stupid Gaijin don't understand anime. ^_^ LOL
>
Come now be civil :) Please don't put words in my mouth especially if
it's mistranslated. All I'm saying is that if something is produced by
by a specific culture/subculture for that culture/subculture then it's
strictly their business what they themselves do with it. For instance
football hooligans ^_^, I may not agree with the idea of one losing
self control in a sports event but it's strictly the country of origin's
affair to deal with them. The only time it becomes someone else's affair
is if the hooligans get violent over in another country. A parallel from
the Japanese animation business would be who is the intended audience.
If the intended audience is solely Japanese and an American/British
company imports it then responsibility lies with the distribution company,
the most a person can do to still be in the right is to decry the
distribution company-however if the intended audience is a foreign one
such as the US or UK then the makers of said program is responsible to
us and it becomes our affair. An example of a show made for a foreign
audience by the Japanese is Cybersix which was made for Canadian audiences.
If Cybersix fails the Canadian audience then it would be the Japanese
makers fault, the Japanese or British audience has no say in the matter.
> Seriously, though - do you really think the only relevant standard by
> which to judge a work is how succesfully it communicates the author's
> intended message to the intended audience?
>
I actually said animation's only purpose is how successfully it
communicates the author's intended message to the intended audience.
But if you are implying that there are other relevant standards
in judging a work then yes you are correct. However keep in mind
that that not all standards are equally applicable. First and
foremost for animation is the effectiveness of communication-not
to be funny, not to be serious and not to be eductational but
to get the point across in a way the director/animator wishes.
> [Snip]
>
> > The only moral episodes involve placing material unsuitable for the
> > intended audience ie. depicting rape and murder in a children's show. If
> > material placement is suitable to the audience then just by that it is
> > morally acceptable. If you say that so many Japanese cartoons smack of
>
> But don't you think puerile sexism is unsuitable material for a work
> intended for rational, humane adults? Doesn't the rampant sexism in anime
> point to an artistic limitation on the part of those who produce the
> stuff?
>
Heh, that's quite an assumption assuming that adults are rational and
humane entities though I admire your belief (I'm not joking). In what
ways are they rational and humane? If humaneness is defined by mostly
civil interaction between people the majority of the time then maybe
they are humane. If rational is defined as the ability to think and
apply some degree of thought based on a system of logic, then people
are rational. However if humane and rational are defined as a 'paragon
of virtue' level of compassion, sensitivity, and correct deduction
then there's not a whole lot of that going around. But I'm a bit
off tangent here.
-First off, is the animated feature(s) intended towards adults?
The vast majority of animation Japanese or otherwise is not
intended for adults.
-Secondly the features are purely fictional and are treated
that way by both the producers and the audience, any interaction
between individuals presented in the feature is not perceived
as pertaining to real life. The only exceptions are features
are autobiographies or other works based on true events.
-Third, are the animated features propaganda pieces for sexism?
Do they explicity say "Be barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen"
in the way that Disney animated shorts in the '40s say buy
war bonds and join the army. Is said sexism endorsed or merely
featured at that. Is it a corruptive or distracting presence?
-Fourth, are we judging too strongly from a non-Japanese perspective?
I'm not saying that we should pretend to be Japanese but do they
have different beliefs in what is sexist and what is not? If the
majority of Japanese people decry a Japanese show as sexist, there's
going to be a very large likelihood it is sexist. There is going to
be levels of cultural relativism that has to be taken into account.
-Finally assuming that there are elements that are offensive to the
Japanese people and not just us in Japanese animation, is there attempts
to address that?
> > wrongness and you never say why then it's only your opinion and
> > meaningful only to you. If you insist on saying that and the shows are
> > morally valid under the principle I mentioned, then your opinion is
> > actually wrong in the fashion of someone who believes the world is flat.
>
> Yes, but he (and others) have given examples of sexism severe enough to
> undermine the artistic purpose of the work, even in anime that is
> supposed to be classic stuff (Ghost in the Shell, Tenchi).
>
Artistic purpose, what artistic purpose is there supposed to be in
those features/series? Ghost in the Shell had only the purpose
of creating a backdrop world whereby in the future the lines between
humans and machines are blurred to such a degree that might not
sentience occur from a machine? As for Tenchi, it's just some
comedy where a kid has his life messed up by aliens. Is there
supposed to be some grand statement from either of these?
> > Do you know the background of Miyazaki whom you quoted from? You have
> > to keep it in mind before you use it. He comes from a hard left-wing
> > background and has strong views in that regards, he's hardly unbiased.
>
> 'Biased' != 'has an opinion'. If Miyazaki let his unjustified personal
> beliefs interfere with his judgement, he would be biased. What dubious
> personal beliefs can you cite, and how do they bias his opinion?
>
From the book "Hayao Miyazaki-Master of Japanese Animation"
In conversation, with the American novellist Ernest Callenbach,
author of Ecotopia, in 1985, Miyazaki said that there was "one
big event" that led to the creation of Nausicaa: the pollution
of Japan's Minamata Bay with mercury. Because the pollution levels
rendered the fish inedible, people stopped fishing there and within
a few years there was a huge increase in fish stocks in the bay,
far in excess of anywhere else in Japan. Miyazaki said that the
news "sent shivers up my spine." He admired the toughness and
resilience of other living creatures, that they could absorb the
poison humans create and continue to thrive.
That was one excerpt, here's another one:
"I've come to the point where I just can't make a movie without
addressing the problem of humanity as part of an ecosystem."
There's plenty more where that comes from but documenting them would
be too bloody long. Miyazaki is prolific in the number of books
and interview about him. He's always come from a hard
ecologist perspective. I don't see anything wrong in his personal
beliefs, but he's let it cloud his judgement in this outburst.
What remains to be seen is what he says in future interviews. Heck
if you tell me how and where to contact him, I'd do it.
No matter how good his intentions, with that outburst he's applied
a judgement that's not only way too strident but his statements
actually have factual errors as well. Non-Japanese critics and
animators admire works from other than Miyazaki.
> > Lots of animators admire his work for their technical merit and the
> > effectiveness of his features to their intended audiences, they don't
> > agree with all his views outside of that. If an unbiased Japanese
> > authority takes a similar view to him, then I would give his opinion
> > notice.
>
> Why not answer his criticism on its own merit? Argument from authority is
> as much a fallacy as argument ad hominem.
>
You are correct to argue from authority can be as much a fallacy as
argument ad hominem. The thing is well postulated critique and
explanation is extremely useful to an argument; ad hominem attacks
and insults aren't. That said though I really like what you wrote
and I think you've got a number of good points
> [Snip]
John Cable
*CHUCKLE, KID*
As the Rolling Stones sang, "rape, murder, it's just an anime."
Kev!
>
> Buying anime in general is a rip off. 30 dollars for 3 episodes. At
> least regular movie DVDs have gotten cheaper.
>
If you do a bit of searching, it's actually a lot lower, at about 20-25 per
3-4 EP's. It's still not CHEAP, but it sure is a heck of a lot less
expensive and more affordable than back in the days of VHS. PLUS you get
both the dub and the sub. I know some could careless, but I personally
enjoy comparing the two. Also, if you stick to buying box sets, then you
usually end up saving more per dvd.
--
"I see!"
said the blind man,
to his deaf son,
as he peed into the wind.
"It's all coming back to me now!"
I V
> I V <ivl...@gmx.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:<pan.2002.04.12.20...@gmx.co.uk>...
[Snip]
>> Seriously, though - do you really think the only relevant standard by
>> which to judge a work is how succesfully it communicates the author's
>> intended message to the intended audience?
>>
> I actually said animation's only purpose is how successfully it
> communicates the author's intended message to the intended audience. But
> if you are implying that there are other relevant standards in judging a
> work then yes you are correct. However keep in mind that that not all
> standards are equally applicable. First and foremost for animation is
> the effectiveness of communication-not to be funny, not to be serious
> and not to be eductational but to get the point across in a way the
> director/animator wishes.
I'm not sure that can be true. Sometimes obscurity can be useful or even
necessary. If clear communication was the primary purpose of any medium,
this post would be better than 'Ulysses', because no matter how unclear I
may be, I'm going to make more (literal) sense than Joyce does. Although,
I not you say 'get the point across in the way the director/animator
wishes', which does suggest that the point is not merely to communicate,
but to communicate in a certain way. I think that's true, but if it is,
then we can't judge a work just (or even primarily) on a simple measure of
how well it communicates some message or point.
>> But don't you think puerile sexism is unsuitable material for a work
>> intended for rational, humane adults? Doesn't the rampant sexism in
>> anime point to an artistic limitation on the part of those who produce
>> the stuff?
> Heh, that's quite an assumption assuming that adults are rational and
> humane entities though I admire your belief (I'm not joking). In what
> ways are they rational and humane? If humaneness is defined by mostly
> civil interaction between people the majority of the time then maybe
> they are humane. If rational is defined as the ability to think and
> apply some degree of thought based on a system of logic, then people are
> rational. However if humane and rational are defined as a 'paragon of
> virtue' level of compassion, sensitivity, and correct deduction then
> there's not a whole lot of that going around. But I'm a bit off tangent
> here.
I don't think I hold any exaggerated beliefs about humanity's virtue. But
most people are reasonably intelligent and reasonably decent, which is all
my argument requires.
> -First off, is the animated feature(s) intended towards adults? The vast
> majority of animation Japanese or otherwise is not intended for adults.
I don't think its just a matter of who the creator intended the audience
to be. If a group of people are putting forward work intended for children
or teenagers as (unrestrictedly) deep and meaningful, as some anime fans
do, it is reasonable to criticize the work by adult standards.
> -Secondly the features are purely fictional and are treated that way by
> both the producers and the audience, any interaction between individuals
> presented in the feature is not perceived as pertaining to real life.
> The only exceptions are features are autobiographies or other works
> based on true events.
However, any fiction has to have some grounding in real life. In
particular, if a feature shows a limited understanding of real-life gender
issues (and I'm not saying all anime does), that is a limitation. If the
story says that there are giant robots, we are prepared to suspend our
disbelief. If it implies that all women are passive sex objects, we are
not, and that interferes with the telling of the story, whether it is
fictional or not.
> -Third, are the animated features propaganda pieces for sexism? Do they
> explicity say "Be barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen" in the way that
> Disney animated shorts in the '40s say buy war bonds and join the army.
> Is said sexism endorsed or merely featured at that. Is it a corruptive
> or distracting presence?
This is the really difficult question, I think. I don't think we can say
that _all_ sexism (or racism or whatever) in fiction necessarily makes it
unsuccesful as art or entertainment. However, as you say, it can be
distracting even when it is not corrupting, and then it clearly is an
aesthetic flaw. The discussion was originally about fanservice, and as
fanservice is by definition distracting, it certainly undermines the
aesthetic purpose of a work.
> -Fourth, are we judging too strongly from a non-Japanese perspective?
> I'm not saying that we should pretend to be Japanese but do they have
> different beliefs in what is sexist and what is not? If the majority of
> Japanese people decry a Japanese show as sexist, there's going to be a
> very large likelihood it is sexist. There is going to be levels of
> cultural relativism that has to be taken into account.
This is tricky, but I don't think it's insurmountable. Japanese and
Western cultures are similar enough that we can reasonably apply 'our'
notions of sexism to Japanese society, and criticize Japanese works if
they are sexist by our standards, whether or not people in Japan think
they are. That said, there is a question about the extent to which we
understand and forgive sexism in works produced in an (even more) sexist
culture than ours, in the same way we might try and understand, rather
than simply condemn, sexism in western works from a hundred years ago.
> -Finally assuming that there are elements that are offensive to the
> Japanese people and not just us in Japanese animation, is there attempts
> to address that?
Again going back to fanservice, pretty much by definition there can be no
attempt to address the offensiveness, otherwise the offensive element
wouldn't be gratuitous (As an aside, this is why I suggest that there is
little or no fanservice in Cowboy Bebop, despite Faye frequently appearing
in a sexualized context). In the case of non-fanservice sexism, the
question is harder, and I think can probably only be answered by looking
at individual cases.
>> Yes, but he (and others) have given examples of sexism severe enough to
>> undermine the artistic purpose of the work, even in anime that is
>> supposed to be classic stuff (Ghost in the Shell, Tenchi).
>>
> Artistic purpose, what artistic purpose is there supposed to be in those
> features/series? Ghost in the Shell had only the purpose of creating a
> backdrop world whereby in the future the lines between humans and
> machines are blurred to such a degree that might not sentience occur
> from a machine? As for Tenchi, it's just some comedy where a kid has
> his life messed up by aliens. Is there supposed to be some grand
> statement from either of these?
>> 'Biased' != 'has an opinion'. If Miyazaki let his unjustified personal
>> beliefs interfere with his judgement, he would be biased. What dubious
>> personal beliefs can you cite, and how do they bias his opinion?
[Quotes from Miyazaki snipped]
> There's plenty more where that comes from but documenting them would
> be too bloody long. Miyazaki is prolific in the number of books and
> interview about him. He's always come from a hard ecologist
> perspective. I don't see anything wrong in his personal beliefs, but
> he's let it cloud his judgement in this outburst. What remains to be
> seen is what he says in future interviews. Heck if you tell me how
> and where to contact him, I'd do it.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure which 'outburst' you are referring to. What you
quoted above, or the quote in John's sig?
> No matter how good his intentions, with that outburst he's applied a
> judgement that's not only way too strident but his statements actually
> have factual errors as well. Non-Japanese critics and animators
> admire works from other than Miyazaki.
This suggests your talking about John's sig. If so, I'm not sure why you
suggest his judgement is 'way too strident', as he only suggests the
possibility that there may be common elements about anime that are
embarrasing. The fact that certain anime is respected outside Japan
doesn't render that untrue. John hasn't quoted any of Miyazaki's
supporting argument, but given the commonly acknowledged faults of anime,
I think we can probably guess what he was talking about.
[Smip]
Ramen Junkie
news:Xns91F01AB6B...@198.99.146.10...
> "Ramen Junkie" <lame...@yahoo.commie> wrote in
> news:omZt8.790$YS2.13...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com:
>
> >
> > Buying anime in general is a rip off. 30 dollars for 3 episodes. At
> > least regular movie DVDs have gotten cheaper.
> >
>
> If you do a bit of searching, it's actually a lot lower, at about 20-25
per
> 3-4 EP's. It's still not CHEAP, but it sure is a heck of a lot less
> expensive and more affordable than back in the days of VHS. PLUS you get
> both the dub and the sub. I know some could careless, but I personally
> enjoy comparing the two. Also, if you stick to buying box sets, then you
> usually end up saving more per dvd.
VHS killed my want to buy anymore in any sort of quantity. Especially
series and box set types.