Space Battleship Yamato 2199:

[GeoffC]

Space Battleship Yamato 2199:
A recent remake of the classic series, already released on BD, and now
transferring to TV as part of the Spring season. Much as in the classic
story, mysterious aliens are attacking the solar system, Earth has been
gravely damaged by planet bombs, the human race is in danger of
extinction, and a mysterious data package has been delivered from a far
civilisation. The WW2 battleship Yamato, resurrected as a spaceship, is
about to launch.
I found a lot of this rather unconvincing - the spaceships and their
battle tactics owe more to 1913 than 2013, two space cadets are allowed
to visit an admiral in hospital and challenge him, the same two cadets
'borrow' an advanced fighter without permission. And it would obviously
be easier to build a new spaceship from scratch than to convert an old
rusted marine wreck into one.
I've never entirely understood why the 'Yamato' became a symbol of
Japanese national pride. Sure, the Yamato and her sister ship were
fine-looking ships and impressive pieces of marine engineering, but they
achieved little before being sunk, and another two carriers would have
given far more bangs per yen.
Could be that this means that I'm not the target audience for a remake
of a science-fantasy classic - or that it isn't very good.

[Arne Luft]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:27:30 +0100, GeoffC
<in...@sandg-anime-reviews.net> wrote:

>I've never entirely understood why the 'Yamato' became a symbol of
>Japanese national pride.

That's one of the reasons, why Japan lost the war. The Japanese
maritime military was to much caught in their view of chivalry.
Instead of cutting of the supply lines of the US forces, as the
Americans did with the Japanese, they always fought military against
military.

The Japanese sunk 0,9 Mill BRT of allied supply ships, whilst the
German sunk 15,6 Mill. BRT of them.

The Japanese were able to launch air attacks to the US mainland via
their I-400 submarines as a global strategy (attacking via the
Atlantic ocean instead of the Pacifician), but they wanted to attack
US aircraft carriers with it. That was 15 years before the "USS
Washington" had a similar global first strike capability with its
ICBMs on board.

The US military historian Morison called the Japanese submarine
strategy as very close to pure idiocy. That was the result of their
chivalry in a modern war.

That's it with the Yamato, too. It was sacrificed with its entire crew
to buy some time. Not enough lifeboats and -belts on board as usual on
Japanese warships in that time.

As you can see, the sword is still seen as superior over the fire arms
in Japan ("You can run out of ammo. A sword lasts for ever." (Shenhua
in Black Lagoon)). That may have its merits, but not in a real modern
war.

[GeoffC]

Space Battleship Yamato 2199:
A recent remake of the classic series, already released on BD, and now
transferring to TV as part of the Spring season. Much as in the classic
story, mysterious aliens are attacking the solar system, Earth has been
gravely damaged by planet bombs, the human race is in danger of
extinction, and a mysterious data package has been delivered from a far

civilisation. A diversionary battle takes place near 'the shores of
Pluto' The WW2 battleship Yamato, resurrected as a spaceship, is about

to launch.
I found a lot of this rather unconvincing - the spaceships and their
battle tactics owe more to 1913 than 2013, two space cadets are allowed
to visit an admiral in hospital and challenge him, the same two cadets

later 'borrow' an advanced fighter without permission. And it would

obviously be easier to build a new spaceship from scratch than to
convert an old rusted marine wreck into one.

I've never entirely understood why the 'Yamato' became a symbol of

[Dave Baranyi]

You disliked this so much that you had to warn us twice? LOL

Dave Baranyi

(Not a SP Yamato fan either...)

[David Johnston]

On 4/10/2013 4:27 AM, GeoffC wrote:
> Space Battleship Yamato 2199:
> A recent remake of the classic series, already released on BD, and now
> transferring to TV as part of the Spring season. Much as in the classic
> story, mysterious aliens are attacking the solar system, Earth has been
> gravely damaged by planet bombs, the human race is in danger of
> extinction, and a mysterious data package has been delivered from a far
> civilisation. The WW2 battleship Yamato, resurrected as a spaceship, is
> about to launch.
> I found a lot of this rather unconvincing - the spaceships and their
> battle tactics owe more to 1913 than 2013, two space cadets are allowed
> to visit an admiral in hospital and challenge him, the same two cadets
> 'borrow' an advanced fighter without permission. And it would obviously
> be easier to build a new spaceship from scratch than to convert an old
> rusted marine wreck into one.
> I've never entirely understood why the 'Yamato' became a symbol of
> Japanese national pride. Sure, the Yamato and her sister ship were
> fine-looking ships and impressive pieces of marine engineering, but they
> achieved little before being sunk, and another two carriers would have
> given far more bangs per yen.

The name would be enough. Naming a Japanese ship "The Yamato" is like
naming an American ship "The Jamestown". And they probably went with
the Yamato rather than a carrier, because visually, it worked better as
as a spaceship than any carrier could.

[Stainless Steel Rat]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 15:03:55 -0600, David Johnston wrote:

> The name would be enough. Naming a Japanese ship "The Yamato" is like
> naming an American ship "The Jamestown".

I'd go with "Enterprise" or "Arizona" myself. Ships with these names have
been held as symbols in much the same way that Matsumoto presented "Yamato"
as a ship name in his TV shows and films.

--
\m/ (--) \m/

[Bill Steele]

In article <askt4p...@mid.individual.net>,

GeoffC <in...@sandg-anime-reviews.net> wrote:

> And it would obviously
> be easier to build a new spaceship from scratch than to convert an old
> rusted marine wreck into one.

Well, first you'd have to collect a ton or two of steel plate and build
a hull. A battleship is already a watertight (and therefore airtight)
structure needing only to seal the top, and it has built-in control
room, communications, life-support distribution (electric, water and
sewer lines). We've seen a cruise ship converted to an underwater
habitat, so why not a battleship in space.

And it fits the culture. For an American version, maybe we'd convert a
shopping mall.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 4/11/13 1:41 PM, Bill Steele wrote:
> In article <askt4p...@mid.individual.net>,
> GeoffC <in...@sandg-anime-reviews.net> wrote:
>
>> And it would obviously
>> be easier to build a new spaceship from scratch than to convert an old
>> rusted marine wreck into one.
>
> Well, first you'd have to collect a ton or two of steel plate and build
> a hull. A battleship is already a watertight (and therefore airtight)
> structure needing only to seal the top, and it has built-in control
> room, communications, life-support distribution (electric, water and
> sewer lines). We've seen a cruise ship converted to an underwater
> habitat, so why not a battleship in space.
>

Holding pressure IN is a different beast than holding pressure OUT.
Pressure doors meant to prevent lots of water from coming in may not
prevent your atmosphere from going out. There's all SORTS of design
implications that really don't work.

Using a battleship is only justified by the Cool Factor.

Unfortunate that this reimagining seems to have decided to go for the
cheesecake factor for the female characters instead of allowing them to
be just CHARACTERS.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Bobbie Sellers]

No! One or more of our modern nuclear-powered subs would make a good
conversion. But it would need more since air supplies are limited.

And you would need more than a few tons of steel plate.
The sub would need armour plate as well if any problems
are encountered.

[GeoffC]

No, I think on reflection one reason they picked on this idea is that
"Yamato" is one of the ancient names for Japan, and somebody thought
that converting the WW2 battleship to a spaceship was a cool idea. In
reality it's totally impractical. You should realise that a large sunken
ship is a total wreck - for one thing the hull often responds to the
insult of being unevenly filled with seawater and then hitting the
seabed at several knots by snapping in the middle - as the Titanic and
Lusitania hulls did, for instance - and scattering the innards of the
engine and boiler rooms across the sea-bed.. 100 years of immersion in
seawater wouldn't improve it any either. And they're not intended to be
pressurised - if you tried it there would be innumerable problems of
sealing holes - some funnel-sized, and stopping the decks from bowing. I
doubt if a mass of tens of thousands of tons of steel would be very
helpful in space when you want to accelerate at a high rate.

Converting a shopping mall might be easier :-)

[Arne Luft]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:32:52 +0100, GeoffC
<in...@sandg-anime-reviews.net> wrote:

>I
>doubt if a mass of tens of thousands of tons of steel would be very
>helpful in space when you want to accelerate at a high rate.

Real space ships are made with heavy armor, because the space isn't
empty, and even small particles (mass accumulations like dust and not
only atoms) hit close to light speed are very dangerous.

Remember the problems the NASA had with computers on their spacecrafts
time by time, because they were hit by something passing through
space.

That is why real space ships are made with a heavy armor and have
discus form. They have to rely on their ship intern resources for
decades, when they travel through real space.

Acceleration is no problem, because of the energy resource. It is far
beyond our knowledge, but may have something to do with the use of
Higgs particles. In real they fly close to light speed.

But that hasn't anything to do with anime. How slowly a space battle
in accordance with real physical laws can be, is to watch in "Space
ship operators".

Btw, there are no space battles in the real world. It is much to
expensive to travel space for a cilization like ours. A civilization
ruins itself, when it tries to travel space for real before it has
reached a very advanced level. Ruining itself will lead to self
destruction out of social problems, and the loss of the ability to
travel space.

When a civilization has reached the level, where it can successfully
manage space travel, it has no intention to conquer or something like
that. They use weapons only for self defense, when they have to visit
a violent planet to pick up supply. So water is the most necessary
supply and water is very common in the universe, there is a very low
chance to capture an alien from outer space on a beach or bond here on
earth.

[Aje RavenStar]

On 4/11/2013 12:56 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 4/11/13 1:41 PM, Bill Steele wrote:
>> In article <askt4p...@mid.individual.net>,
>> GeoffC <in...@sandg-anime-reviews.net> wrote:
>>
>>> And it would obviously
>>> be easier to build a new spaceship from scratch than to convert an old
>>> rusted marine wreck into one.
>>
>> Well, first you'd have to collect a ton or two of steel plate and build
>> a hull. A battleship is already a watertight (and therefore airtight)
>> structure needing only to seal the top, and it has built-in control
>> room, communications, life-support distribution (electric, water and
>> sewer lines). We've seen a cruise ship converted to an underwater
>> habitat, so why not a battleship in space.
>>
>
> Holding pressure IN is a different beast than holding pressure OUT.
> Pressure doors meant to prevent lots of water from coming in may not
> prevent your atmosphere from going out. There's all SORTS of design
> implications that really don't work.
>
> Using a battleship is only justified by the Cool Factor.

Well....The story I'm currently working on, involves a Japanese staffed
space station where a ship is being built for a Mars colony project. As
it happens, the ship plans being used are those of the Yamato, with good
reason. This is a government project, secret at this point, so by using
an existing design of proven worth, one that's easily modified on the
inside to handle the project needs (colonists, building materials,
plants and animals) and the exterior to handle the propulsion drive
(anti-grav, not explaining it as I don't drink enough at one sitting
anymore to spout Star Trek pseudo-science - that often), the project is
spared from having to hold a lot of hearings and meetings to reinvent
the wheel, with the publicity and extra cost that would result. Since
the drive is antigrav, pressure issues are not considered an issue
because antigrav elements around the perimeter of the hull will keep the
atmosphere in (this does not mean sloppy welding is tolerated, though).
LIkewise, the device can be placed and used to push debris away from
the ship path.

[Aje RavenStar]

James Blish already wrote that story. See his book, Cities in Flight.

[Dave Baranyi]

A spaceship within a Japanese space station - sure you're not channelling
memories of "Infinite Ryvius" thanks to that drinking and sitting... LOL

(just kidding...)

Dave Baranyi

BTW - the phrase "proven design" should be used cautiously when speaking of
Yamato. Yamato, Musashi and Shinano were all plagued by design and material
problems and spent most of the war in docks being repaired. Shinano was
converted into a big but still half-assed CV and was easily sunk by
submarine torpedoes while being towed for final construction details.
Musashi was sunk by US PT boats while trying to sneak through the
Philippines in 1944. Only Yamato really faced any action and it did poorly
when it did.

[Travoltron]

On 4/10/2013 3:27 AM, GeoffC wrote:
> And it would obviously be easier to build a new spaceship from scratch
> than to convert an old rusted marine wreck into one.

What I've read on this remake says this isn't the case; that it's a
brand new ship built in the image of the battleship Yamato at a much
larger scale.

[Aje RavenStar]

Heh. The station ended up in the shape of a giant torii (with five
decks), and the ship construction is taking place between the two long
pillars.

[GeoffC]

This seems to owe a lot more to 'cool factor' than to engineering.
Did anyone google for 'Yamato wreck'? The notion, purveyed by the anime,
that it is upright and in one piece with the superstructure largely
intact is a total fantasy.
And, just to pick on one thing, you probably wouldn't want to spend
months in space inside a WW2 warship, as (with the honourable exception
of US warships) they didn't bother with crew accommodation - after
filling all the compartments with weapons and equipment they told the
ordinary sailors to find somewhere to sling a hammock.
It's the near-universal practice to scrap a marine ship after a life of
the order of 25 years, as after that it isn't economic to convert it
into anything other than furnace feed.
The US did update one of their WW2 big-gun battleships into a more
modern shore bombardment & missile ship, but the cost was eye-watering -
far more than it cost to build it in the first place.

[Rob Kelk]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 10:00:49 +0100, GeoffC
<in...@sandg-anime-reviews.net> wrote:

<snip>

>Did anyone google for 'Yamato wreck'? The notion, purveyed by the anime,
>that it is upright and in one piece with the superstructure largely
>intact is a total fantasy.

<snip>

Interestingly, "Kamichu!" got this right...

--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis

[Galen]

I served in submarines, and the biggest problem is that the nuclear
reactor is a heat engine - and vacuum is an insulator. Where is that
100 MW of thermal power supposed to go?

-Galen

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

You need BIG radiator fins.

(And now your ship is looking like it came out of Flash Gordon)

[Gerardo Campos]

There is the Robotech satellite factory (or whatever it was called in
Macross, do not have the time to research), radish shaped modules
connected by large tubes, several decks, at least the main "radish",
capable of building ships and Zentradi mecha.

On all these space based factories I have always wondered, how they
managed to get the supplies and raw material delivered?

I will think a large cost of the production will be the shipping costs.

--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos

[Bobbie Sellers]

Radiators constucted of a fraction of the re-enforcement steel
used to secure the hull against internal pressure. It would not look
much like a sub but more like a tube inside a heat sink.
But i think it can be "easily done" to quote a comic opera.
bliss

[Bobbie Sellers]

Not really. But it will start another industry, asteroid mining. Mine
for all the needed materials including water which can
be turned into fuel and air. iron, etc.

bliss

[Galen]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 08:02:58 -0700, Bobbie Sellers

There is actually a damage control procedure in submarines to
pressurize a flooded compartment in order to blow the water out of it,
so the design will already resist internal pressures in excess of 50
standard atmospheres.

-Galen

[Aje RavenStar]

Well...sort of both. When I writing about things like this, I like to
start by sketching the layout so I don't have charas turning left when
they should turn right, that kind of thing. So, ok, let's see what this
station is going to look like. It'll need a section for growing plants,
that will be facing the sun, two levels inside of it, outside it solar
panels on sliding rails to gather power and serve as sun shields as
needed. So, (forgive the ascii rendering)

- - - - - - - - - -

Now, a second section, the start of the five deck area, for classrooms,
living quarters, medical facilities, dining, offices, and whatever,
connected to the other part by way of three hallways, so:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| | |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

And finally two long sections are needed. The ship will be constructed
between them. They will be five decks also. The bottom left will be a
sea habitat and the bottom right a freshwater habitat. This will allow
fish to be raised for food, a training area for establishing and
maintaining such habitats, and a recreational area. Second left level
will be power generation and storage equipment, and second level right
for air and water purification equipment. Third decks will be the ship
docks allowing access to the construction area, then to the ship
interior once the hull is complete and passes pressure testing. Fourth
deck left will be recycling operation and fabrication shops (metal work,
glass work, wood work, cloth making, paper making, and training in each
of those), fourth deck right will be laboratories. Finally top deck
left and right will be residences. so:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| | |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |

At this point, everyone involved in the planning does a double take and
says it looks like a torii. So the under minster in charge of the
project says "Go ahead and emphasis that look for it. That way when we
go public with its existence, it'll be an easier sell to get public
support for it." (this under minister is an old pro. Stuck with this
project by his boss, the head of the Ministry of Education, Culture,
Sports, Science and Technology, told to work with the American mad
scientist who licensed this antigrav device to the Japanese government
on condition it was used for a space colony project, he studies the
possibilities, then presents his boss with a plan to do it that not only
demonstrates a need for funding for education, science, and technology,
but also will tap into funding of the Ministry of Agriculture, Forestry
and Fisheries and the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport &
Tourism. No organization department head can resist a project under
their firm control that takes half or more of its funding from other
department heads, so this gets him on board and advocating for it with
the Prime Minister and Legislature).

> Did anyone google for 'Yamato wreck'? The notion, purveyed by the anime,
> that it is upright and in one piece with the superstructure largely
> intact is a total fantasy.
> And, just to pick on one thing, you probably wouldn't want to spend
> months in space inside a WW2 warship, as (with the honourable exception
> of US warships) they didn't bother with crew accommodation - after
> filling all the compartments with weapons and equipment they told the
> ordinary sailors to find somewhere to sling a hammock.

Not the case with the ship for this story. Everything is being planned
out as the hull is being constructed. And discussed, modified, altered,
several times as more things are learned and priorities shifted.
Fortunately before fitting the interior begins, and without affecting
the crew and control areas (it's been decided those would be located in
the 'con tower', leaving the major decks for cargo and animal and plant
facilities).

[Travoltron]

On 4/12/2013 2:00 AM, GeoffC wrote:
> This seems to owe a lot more to 'cool factor' than to engineering.
> Did anyone google for 'Yamato wreck'? The notion, purveyed by the anime,
> that it is upright and in one piece with the superstructure largely
> intact is a total fantasy.

That information wasn't available when they made the original. They
made the same mistake Raise the Titanic made.

[Arne Luft]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 11:27:30 +0100, GeoffC
<in...@sandg-anime-reviews.net> wrote:

>I found a lot of this rather unconvincing

What's wrong with your understanding of a "Tachyon particles
oscillator-amplifier"? Have you missed some hours in school? Just have
a look in the manual for the controll unit, which they show in the
anime. :-)

I've seen a few eps of the show now, and I enjoy it. It's not that
bad.

Well, using a battle ship in space is a bit out of the rational, but
that is sound in the vacuum, too. Enjoying animes is just a case of
getting accustomed to things like that, isn't it?

[Bill Steele]

In article <kk7im2$j42$2...@dont-email.me>,

the American version might be the QueenMary. If we don't worry about the
technical problems mentioned earlier, the Arizona from Pearl Harbor fits
the symbolism. If we really had to do this, a submarine would be the
best bet.