Do Dub and Sub dialogs often have different meanings?
Touma
dubbed version is available. So I seldom see subtitles.
While watching Sorcerer Hunters I heard something that made me ask
"Did he really say that?" After listening several times I was
convinced that I had heard it correctly, but I decided to check the
subtitles just to be sure. After switching language tracks and
watching the subtitles I was not sure of anything, just really
confused.
I am not going to give away any of the story. But I will say
something about the characters that is not revealed until late in the
series. So for that reason I will put in some spoiler space.
Spoiler
P
O
I
L
E
R
Space
P
A
C
E
I am watching the four disk DVD set of the television series.
For those who do not know, the Sorcerer Hunters are brothers Carrot
and Marron Glace, sisters Tira and Chocolate Misu, and Gateau Mocha,
the strongman of the group.
Carrot may be the most desperate male virgin in anime. He is always
chasing pretty girls, and never catching anything except a slap in the
face.
Tira and Chocolate are both in love with Carrot.
Marron appears to be gay, and attracted to Gateau. Gateau seems to be
bisexual, or at least bi-curious, and is not offended by Marron's
attention. So far nothing has happened between them.
About two minutes and 45 seconds into episode 15: Carrot runs off to
chase girls, Tira and Chocolate run off to chase Carrot, and Gateau
and Marron are left alone.
On the dubbed language track they have this conversation:
Gateau: Say, Marron. If we ever wanted to, you know, now's our
chance.
Marron: Let's make sure they don't kill him first. Then we'll see.
Gateau: Prick tease.
These are the subtitles for that same conversation:
Gateau: Oh well, the usual chase is on.
Marron: Let's take it easy in town.
Gateau: Yeah, let's.
That seems to be more than just a difference of opinion over exactly
how something should be translated. The subtitles have completely
lost the sexual connotations from the dubbed version. Or the dub
added something that was never in the original script. Since I do not
understand a word of Japanese I have no idea what has happened.
Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
--
Con Maxwell
The Eternal Lost Lurker
"Touma" <to...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5qontvo0jc6hh29lh...@4ax.com...
> For strictly personal reasons I never watch a subtitled video if a
> dubbed version is available. So I seldom see subtitles.
> While watching Sorcerer Hunters I heard something that made me ask
> "Did he really say that?" After listening several times I was
> convinced that I had heard it correctly, but I decided to check the
> subtitles just to be sure. After switching language tracks and
> watching the subtitles I was not sure of anything, just really
> confused.
*snip*
> Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
> and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
It's fairly common, and with good reason.
When anime is dubbed, there's more to consider than simply a translation. It
has to actually make sense when spoken in English, and it has to match the
lip-flap (the mouth movements of the characters on screen). Writing timed
dub scripts is not an easy task, and it's quite common for a lot of things
to be changed because of lip-flap, clarity of meaning, and cultural
exchanges (most dubs are written with the logic in mind that anyone watching
a dub doesn't grok Japanese culture).
Subtitles, conversely, are usually more or less a direct translation of the
original, slightly modified for clarity and the occasional cultural
modification, but essentially the dialogue of a sub is usually going to
match what's actually being said in the original Japanese version.
Subtitles, after all, don't need to match lip-flap, or even make sense in
spoken English. So long as they're timed to the speech of the character and
convey the intended meaning of the dialogue, that's all that matters.
--
I'm not impressed by giant breasts.
I think they're a mess.
But I digress.
=+=
The Eternal Lost Lurker
www.lurkerdrome.com
Ethan Hammond
> and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
Yes it does, which is why I don't like dubs.
By the way you have to watch Nuku Nuku subtitled.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Ethan Hammond
>
> When anime is dubbed, there's more to consider than simply a translation.
It
> has to actually make sense when spoken in English, and it has to match the
> lip-flap (the mouth movements of the characters on screen). Writing timed
> dub scripts is not an easy task, and it's quite common for a lot of things
> to be changed because of lip-flap, clarity of meaning, and cultural
> exchanges (most dubs are written with the logic in mind that anyone
watching
> a dub doesn't grok Japanese culture).
Actually it dosen't really have to match the lip flaps since the original
Japanese dosen't match the lip flaps. Since Japanese do the animation
first and then do the dialouge. The only exception to this that I know
of is Akira. Another problem is that a lot of translator try to make the
shows funnier when they write the dub scripts instead of just translate
them.
Klyfix
"Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>"Touma" <to...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>
>> Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
>> and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
>
>Yes it does, which is why I don't like dubs.
>By the way you have to watch Nuku Nuku subtitled.
>
Because of the dialogue, or because of the difference in the voice acting?
For me, a lot of the time the English voice acting is, well, inferior to the
Japanese. Megumi Hayashibara is Lina Inverse; the American actors, uhh
are not, for instance.
On the other hand, I'm not sure how much that this is me having heard the
original first. I like the Tenchi Muyo dub about as well as the Japanese
for instance, but I saw the dubs first.
V. S. Greene : kly...@aol.com : Boston, near Arkham...
Eckzylon: http://m1.aol.com/klyfix/eckzylon.html
"Death and Poverty love me so much they brought
friends!"-Vash in "Trigun"
Unforgiven
> For me, a lot of the time the English voice acting is, well, inferior
> to the Japanese. Megumi Hayashibara is Lina Inverse; the American
> actors, uhh
> are not, for instance.
>
> On the other hand, I'm not sure how much that this is me having heard
> the original first. I like the Tenchi Muyo dub about as well as the
> Japanese for instance, but I saw the dubs first.
That's very likely the case. I like the Gundam Wing dub because I saw that
first, for instance (and because I associate Treize's Japanese voice too
much with Il Palazzo from Excel Saga ^_^ )
Of course, there are situations where the English dub just is atrocious,
like Love Hina for example...
For me, there are a few reasons why I will always watch the Japanese dub
when available:
1. Watching the show as intended. The Japanese version is the way the
creators wanted it to be, in acting, directing and casting. The English
version is an interpretation in all three regards, plus you have the dialog
changes for lip-flap, translators that think they're funny, etc.
2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu industry is very
competitive and also how serious the Japanese take voice acting and several
other factors usually mean the Japanese version is factually (not just
subjectively) better.
3. Certain nuances that are present in Japanese aren't present in English.
The type of personal pronouns someone uses (boku, ore, watashi, watakushi,
atashi, etc.), the way they address people
(-san, -sama-, -sempai, -kun, -chan, etc.), the kinds of emphatic particles
they use, and lots of other thing that neither the subs nor dubs can
accurately convey tell you a lot about someone's character; only the the
Japanese language track can convey those. Also, I'm learning Japanese, and
every bit of practice helps. ^_^
4. When I purchase locally available anime, the only dub tracks will be
German and French. Since German dubs in particular are horrible ("Traur
nicht, Herr Van!") and my Japanese is actually better than my German or my
French, what would be the point? ^_^
5. It makes me feel more elitist. (okay, not really ^_^ but for some people
I'm guessing this is also a reason)
Dubs have their uses, and if you like them, go ahead and watch them. If you
like subs, go ahead and watch those. To each his/her own.
--
Unforgiven
"Most people make generalisations"
Freek de Jonge
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> For strictly personal reasons I never watch a subtitled video if a
> dubbed version is available. So I seldom see subtitles.
> While watching Sorcerer Hunters I heard something that made me ask
> "Did he really say that?" After listening several times I was
> convinced that I had heard it correctly, but I decided to check the
> subtitles just to be sure. After switching language tracks and
> watching the subtitles I was not sure of anything, just really
> confused.
>
> I am not going to give away any of the story. But I will say
> something about the characters that is not revealed until late in the
> series. So for that reason I will put in some spoiler space.
>
> Spoiler
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> Space
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> About two minutes and 45 seconds into episode 15: Carrot runs off to
> chase girls, Tira and Chocolate run off to chase Carrot, and Gateau
> and Marron are left alone.
> On the dubbed language track they have this conversation:
>
> Gateau: Say, Marron. If we ever wanted to, you know, now's our
> chance.
> Marron: Let's make sure they don't kill him first. Then we'll see.
> Gateau: Prick tease.
>
> These are the subtitles for that same conversation:
>
> Gateau: Oh well, the usual chase is on.
> Marron: Let's take it easy in town.
> Gateau: Yeah, let's.
>
> That seems to be more than just a difference of opinion over exactly
> how something should be translated. The subtitles have completely
> lost the sexual connotations from the dubbed version. Or the dub
> added something that was never in the original script. Since I do not
> understand a word of Japanese I have no idea what has happened.
>
There's another possibility:
the dub did not intentionally put a sexual connotation,
but by accident, that's what it turned out to be.
Or they did put it in intentionally
as a fanservice for the yaoi fangirls.
Laters. =)
Stan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee stanlee[at]cif[dot]rochester[dot]edu
| ( _| | Dometita http://cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee/
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
Travers Naran
> Of course, there are situations where the English dub just is atrocious,
> like Love Hina for example...
Well, the English voices for Keitaro and Naru were pretty good, better
than the Japanese ones IMHO. But the rest ranged from adequate, Mitsume
Otohime, to downright horrible: Koala Suu and Kitsune.
> For me, there are a few reasons why I will always watch the Japanese dub
> when available:
> 1. Watching the show as intended. The Japanese version is the way the
> creators wanted it to be, in acting, directing and casting. The English
> version is an interpretation in all three regards, plus you have the dialog
> changes for lip-flap, translators that think they're funny, etc.
Part of the problem is that to do a proper translation, you should know
how to write. Most manga & anime adapters couldn't write their way out
of a paper bag.
> 2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu industry is very
> competitive and also how serious the Japanese take voice acting and several
> other factors usually mean the Japanese version is factually (not just
> subjectively) better.
The problem is the voice sub industry in North America is pulling from a
small pool of actors of mediocre quality. There is a highly competitive
animation voice over industry in North America, and the better actors
command high wages. Most dubs are done on shoe-string budgets.
> 3. Certain nuances that are present in Japanese aren't present in English.
> The type of personal pronouns someone uses (boku, ore, watashi, watakushi,
> atashi, etc.), the way they address people
> (-san, -sama-, -sempai, -kun, -chan, etc.), the kinds of emphatic particles
> they use, and lots of other thing that neither the subs nor dubs can
> accurately convey tell you a lot about someone's character; only the the
> Japanese language track can convey those. Also, I'm learning Japanese, and
> every bit of practice helps. ^_^
A good translator/adaptor can overcome almost all of this. To be a good
translator, you have to be a good writer too. You must know how to
convey those meaning in English without resorting to awkward
translations (e.g., "Upperclassman Kuno"). If you read the translations
of many major Japanese authors, the translators rarely have to resort to
using Japanese directly.
Now, on the other hand, I think for anime it'd be best to leave most
titles in. For movies translated from Spanish, it's getting common to
leave in Senor and Senorita. It's not too weird to hear Monsieur,
Madamemoiselle or Madame in English movies. So leaving in -sempai and
-sama and -chan isn't that weird.
> 4. When I purchase locally available anime, the only dub tracks will be
> German and French. Since German dubs in particular are horrible ("Traur
> nicht, Herr Van!") and my Japanese is actually better than my German or my
> French, what would be the point? ^_^
Where are you living? 8-)
> 5. It makes me feel more elitist. (okay, not really ^_^ but for some people
> I'm guessing this is also a reason)
Sadly, this describes most sub-firsters. That's why us sub-lovers tend
to get smacked around by the dub-loving crowd. ;-)
> Dubs have their uses, and if you like them, go ahead and watch them. If you
> like subs, go ahead and watch those. To each his/her own.
I have no problem with dubs, and I do watch anime dubbed on occasion.
My problem is the sub-par job done on most anime, and the way fans
reward these weak jobs with praise and adulation as being "better than
the Japanese dub". The vast majority are inferior to the original, with
only a very small percentage equaling or exceding the original.
An example of dub done RIGHT: FLCL. You're missing very little from the
Japanese. They even managed to make the puns work in English.
--
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Rob Kelk
Having read a good chunk of the translated manga, it appears to me that
the anime translators decided to bring the anime a bit closer to the
manga, actually. I wouldn't approve of gratuitous sexual innuendo being
added to most series, but Sorceror Hunters is an exception...
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> robkelk -at- jksrv -dot- com
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of
childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis, 1947
The Eternal Lost Lurker
"Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:X_XCb.193935$Ec1.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Actually it dosen't really have to match the lip flaps since the original
> Japanese dosen't match the lip flaps.
Yeah, but if it doesn't, then people get bitchy :P
> Another problem is that a lot of translator try to make the
> shows funnier when they write the dub scripts instead of just translate
> them.
Ugh, punch-up writing. One of the biggest problems with the DBZ dub...
Pete Holland Jr.
> Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
> and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
Well, it seems to depend. Some productions try to punch things up a
bit. From what I've seen, dialogue is more metaphorical and poetic with
Oriental works. I recall an interview with a guy who runs a US based
Hong Kong film magazine, and he was explaining that something translated
in the US as "Let's give 'em hell!" could be in Chinese, "Let us show
them our influence."
IIRC, the rerelease of Lupin The 3rd has the jokes rewritten to make
them more current. (Haven't seen either of them except for the video
game "Cliff Hanger", but it's on my list to check out sometime.)
And I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure Takeshi's Castle sounds nothing
like Most Extreme Elimination Challenge. ;-)
Dobre utka,
Pete Holland Jr.
Travers Naran
> Hey, Touma!
>
>> Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
>> and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
>
>
> Well, it seems to depend. Some productions try to punch things up a
> bit. From what I've seen, dialogue is more metaphorical and poetic with
> Oriental works. I recall an interview with a guy who runs a US based
> Hong Kong film magazine, and he was explaining that something translated
> in the US as "Let's give 'em hell!" could be in Chinese, "Let us show
> them our influence."
Well, all language used in everyday life are metaphorical and poetic,
but we're so used to it and its usual meanings that we don't notice it.
That's why machine translation is such a hard chore. Unless it's for
totally objective language or very matter of fact, everyday human
language has too much assumed knowledge to be translated by rote rules.
See the OpenCyc project for an example of what I mean:
<http://www.opencyc.org/>
The only time I've really noticed it myself is when I've been writing to
my Japanese pen-pals and then realise that what I want to say is
actually a metaphor. "Let's give 'em hell!" is a poetic metaphor with
no ready equivalent in Japanese. That's why when translating, you have
to go into the heart of the dialog and understand the emotion and
impetus for the dialog. Then you take that and figure out what an
English speaker would say in the same circumstances.
This is why there are so many different translations for the same line
of dialog.
> IIRC, the rerelease of Lupin The 3rd has the jokes rewritten to make
> them more current. (Haven't seen either of them except for the video
> game "Cliff Hanger", but it's on my list to check out sometime.)
That's always a hard call. When the material is dated, should you bring
the dialog up to date as well?
> And I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure Takeshi's Castle sounds nothing
> like Most Extreme Elimination Challenge. ;-)
But from the last time I saw a properly translated clips of those kind
of Japanese game shows, it's not THAT far removed from the original
dialog. ;-)
Although I do love the re-writers on MXC. They come up with some
hilarious material all on their own.
The Eternal Lost Lurker
"Pete Holland Jr." <pet...@uti.com> wrote in message
news:3FDC96D7...@uti.com...
> Hey, Touma!
>
> > Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
> > and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
>
> Well, it seems to depend. Some productions try to punch things up a
> bit. From what I've seen, dialogue is more metaphorical and poetic with
> Oriental works. I recall an interview with a guy who runs a US based
> Hong Kong film magazine, and he was explaining that something translated
> in the US as "Let's give 'em hell!" could be in Chinese, "Let us show
> them our influence."
*nodnod* You'll get a lot of this in anime. Another really good example is
anytime "yurusanai" is used; English versions tend to translate it as
anything from "I'll make you pay!" to "I'll kick your ass!" (the actual
meaning is closer to "I won't forgive you.")
> IIRC, the rerelease of Lupin The 3rd has the jokes rewritten to make
> them more current. (Haven't seen either of them except for the video
> game "Cliff Hanger", but it's on my list to check out sometime.)
That's my only real peeve with the Lupin The Third dub. It's a 70s show, and
you can even TELL it's a 70s show. But they throw in references to
everything from Shaq to Bill Clinton. It's very jarring.
Pål Are Nordal
>
> Having read a good chunk of the translated manga, it appears to me that
> the anime translators decided to bring the anime a bit closer to the
> manga, actually.
Purely coincidental. The script was done by the infamous Steven Foster,
who, among other things likes to insert homosexual innuendo into his
scripts. A list of some of his work:
http://www.crystalacids.com/database/writer/foster_steven.html
Pål Are Nordal
>
> Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
> and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
Those who say it happens all the time obviously aren't watching stuff
dubbed, so please just ignore them. It happens. More before then now.
But it's impossible to generalize. It all varies according to who's
releasing the show, who's producing the dub and who's writing the script.
New York studios for example have had a tendency to simply have the VAs
read out the exact subtitle script, which usually made the VAs sound
awkward. ADV on the other hand had a history of doing considerable
changes (and they were doing it to their sub scripts before they started
dubbing), but have reportedly gotten better lately. Of course, there are
cases of mediocre shows being improved by well done rewrites in the dub
script, so I decide what a good dub script is on a case to case basis.
The only way to really be sure is to simply watch the dub with the subs
turned on for a few minutes and check yourself.
Touma
>Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
>and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
I am replying to my own post because I received too many good
responses to answer each of them.
Apparently there are often differences between subtitles and dubs, and
there are many good reasons for this. I may have to consider watching
the subs, at least in some cases, in addition to the dubs.
In the Sorcerer Hunter scene that I used as an example it seems like
the difference was probably caused by the dub translator being more
faithful to the manga than the television writers were.
Thank you to everybody who contributed to my education on this
subject.
Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
--
Con Maxwell
Touma
<esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>By the way you have to watch Nuku Nuku subtitled.
I was afraid that you might say that.
How about a compromise?
I will watch the dubbed version, so that I can enjoy the beauty of the
Nuku Nuku without the distraction of those silly letters at the bottom
of the screen.
After I have absorbed a sufficient dose of cat-girl cuteness I will
watch the DVD again, this time with subtitles.
I will try to learn to read for content.
--
Con Maxwell
Blade
news:brhudg$3b1fs$1...@ID-136341.news.uni-berlin.de:
<snip to the relevent idiocy>
2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu
> industry is very competitive and also how serious the Japanese take
> voice acting and several other factors usually mean the Japanese
> version is factually (not just subjectively) better.
NO.
IT.
IS.
NOT.
Jeezus H. Christ, you blithering dipshit. There is not such thing as
FACTUALLY BETTER ACTING. It is entirely your opinion, your SUBJECTIVE
OPINION, that has NO BASIS IN FACT OTHER THAN WHAT YOU LIKE BETTER.
If you want to listen to crappy mass-produced Japanese voice actors who
all sound alike and have women who talk in voices never meant to come
from a human throat, then fine. If you want to think they're better and
that what I just said is bullshit, then fine. But don't go saying there
is anything but utter subjectivity in your opinion.
JEEZUS.
Blade
*******
Also Known As: Chris McNeil, The Annoying Jerk, The Enemy of Democracy,
"That Guy That Can't Write A Lunch Menu Without Pantyhose Tarou Being In
It Somewhere"
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com
- Bigger. Better. Badder. Back. Oh yeah.
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/kaliashrine.htm
- Worship the Cute Evil that is Kalia! Or else!
"Welcome to the Internet!
Where everyone has an opinion, so you don't have to!"
Blade
news:OE%Cb.3708$OJ.98@edtnps84:
> I have no problem with dubs, and I do watch anime dubbed on
> occasion. My problem is the sub-par job done on most anime, and the
> way fans reward these weak jobs with praise and adulation as being
> "better than the Japanese dub". The vast majority are inferior to
> the original, with only a very small percentage equaling or exceding
> the original.
Yes, because all those misguided idiots who have a different opinion than
you are foolish and WRONG. They don't realise the utterly objective way
to grade the quality of acting that the human race had never discovered
before the great Travers Naran revealed it to us beknighted souls.
You insipid tool. I'm ashamed to share a country with you. Christ.
This is a new decade. Why the hell is the fricking 90s Sub Nazi Clique
popping out of nowhere?
Pål Are Nordal
>> 2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu industry is very
>> competitive and also how serious the Japanese take voice acting
While the Japanese voice acting industry does have a lot more experience
then most dubbing studios, I don't automatically accept that everything
they do is super-ultra-amazing. I find plenty of boring, by-the-numbers
acting and casting, not to mention all the "cute" mouse-on-helium female
voices that I can't stand. Dubs tend to have a much wider variety of
voices, which I appreciate a lot.
Fact is anime is low-budget stuff compared to original US animation
productions, and aside from the current top seiyuu they get paid less
per hour then the average dub voice actor. And you don't have to take my
word for it, take a look at this:
http://homepage2.nifty.com/kannagi/A11.htm
...or listen to the Patlabor OVA commentary track, where Mamoru Oshii
notes that if you get 3 good actors out of 10 you've done good.
> The problem is the voice sub industry in North America is pulling from a
> small pool of actors of mediocre quality.
Dubbing studios are located all over North America. The size and
experience of the talent pools they draw from vary a lot. For example,
from an earlier post I seem to recall you dissing I My Me! Strawberry
Eggs, while praising ADV's (Excel Saga) and Coastal's efforts.
Eggs was done in LA, and features for example W. Morgan Sheppard (under
an alias), who's done plenty of animation (Gargoyles) and live action...
You're a Babylon 5 fan aren't you? He was the first Soul Hunter, and
later Warleader G'Sten in "The Long Twilight Struggle".
Meanwhile, ADV and Coastal are located in Texas and North Carolina
respectively, far away from any mainstream voice acting industry. I
don't believe they have any full time voice actors, most of them aren't
even full time actors, having "day jobs" as hairdressers, etc.
Now, I'm not making any comments on the quality of these dubs, good or
bad, but you might want to consider that there are other factors then
purely the skill/experience of the actors that make like/dislike these dubs.
> There is a highly competitive
> animation voice over industry in North America, and the better actors
> command high wages.
Scott McNeil (The Principal in Ranma, Duo Maxwell in Gundam Wing, Koga
in Inu-Yasha) is a full time VA, and buys himself a new sports car ever
other year or so. Of course, he does a lot of original animated shows too.
> Most dubs are done on shoe-string budgets.
This can vary, based on how well the title is expected to sell. Except
the occasional attempt at drawing in stars (like the Armitage movies),
the pay for dubbing is usually fixed according to the market (this too
varies), so bigger budgets generally mean that the studio will be able
to spend more time on polishing the acting (and mixing), and hire larger
casts.
> A good translator/adaptor can overcome almost all of this. To be a good
> translator, you have to be a good writer too.
There are studios that employ professional writers for their dub
scripts. Lydia Marano (Gargoyles, Roughnecks) did one of the Tenchi
movies, and Lucia Frangione is an award winning playwright:
http://www.crystalacids.com/database/writer/frangione_lucia.html
> You must know how to
> convey those meaning in English without resorting to awkward
> translations (e.g., "Upperclassman Kuno").
I thought "Upperclassman Kuno" was great, because it's perfectly in
character for him to come up with something as stupid and awkward.
> An example of dub done RIGHT: FLCL. You're missing very little from the
> Japanese. They even managed to make the puns work in English.
Would you believe the voice director/script adapter and some of the main
actors' careers go back to the Robotech/Voltron days?
Travers Naran
> Travers Naran <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in
> news:OE%Cb.3708$OJ.98@edtnps84:
>
>>I have no problem with dubs, and I do watch anime dubbed on
>>occasion. My problem is the sub-par job done on most anime, and the
>>way fans reward these weak jobs with praise and adulation as being
>>"better than the Japanese dub". The vast majority are inferior to
>>the original, with only a very small percentage equaling or exceding
>>the original.
>
> Yes, because all those misguided idiots who have a different opinion than
> you are foolish and WRONG. They don't realise the utterly objective way
> to grade the quality of acting that the human race had never discovered
> before the great Travers Naran revealed it to us beknighted souls.
Exactly. The world would be so much better if people just admitted I
was right and they were wrong. :-P
> You insipid tool. I'm ashamed to share a country with you. Christ.
> This is a new decade. Why the hell is the fricking 90s Sub Nazi Clique
> popping out of nowhere?
Nowhere? The rash of wannabes entering the business has brought us to
this "resurgence" of the Sub Nazi Clique (cute name -- gotta add that to
my .sig). The vast majority of dub voice actors are theater majors
"slumming" in anime. In their DVD interviews, they keep talking about
how they're just doing this until their theatre career takes off. Oh,
spare me!
It's not like there isn't good talent out there: watch North American
animation, and you can hear a lot of good talent, but then again, they
get paid a lot more than most anime voice talent. Which brings me to
the biggest problem: anime dubs are done on the cheap. Disney forked
out some major dinero for good voice talent and mostly got it (I still
think Kirsten Dunst was dull in Kiki, but I feel that way about most of
her live action work as well). It can be done, but you'll have to be
willing to pay for it.
Also, there's the production schedule. Synch-point did a fantastic job
on FLCL, but it took them MONTHS to just release 2 episodes per DVD.
Most anime seems to be pumped out on impossibly tight schedules, so
there isn't really a chance to "get it right".
I don't mind subs: just do it right.
Positive sub examples:
* The recent Akira re-release
* FLCL
* Ah, My Goddess!
* Excel Saga
* Cowboy Bebop
> "Welcome to the Internet!
> Where everyone has an opinion, so you don't have to!"
Yup! Us arrogant, SOB know-it-alls know it all so you don't have to! :-)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
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|
Proud member of the Sub Nazi Clique |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran
> "Unforgiven" <jaap...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:brhudg$3b1fs$1...@ID-136341.news.uni-berlin.de:
>
> <snip to the relevent idiocy>
>
> 2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu
>
>>industry is very competitive and also how serious the Japanese take
>>voice acting and several other factors usually mean the Japanese
>>version is factually (not just subjectively) better.
>
>
> NO.
>
> IT.
>
> IS.
>
> NOT.
>
> Jeezus H. Christ, you blithering dipshit. There is not such thing as
> FACTUALLY BETTER ACTING. It is entirely your opinion, your SUBJECTIVE
> OPINION, that has NO BASIS IN FACT OTHER THAN WHAT YOU LIKE BETTER.
No such thing as factually better acting? There are generally agreed
upon opinions on which movies are better than others and which actors
are better than others. These opinions tend to cluster. It's not just
a "personal" thing.
> If you want to listen to crappy mass-produced Japanese voice actors who
> all sound alike and have women who talk in voices never meant to come
> from a human throat, then fine.
"your SUBJECTIVE OPINION, that has NO BASIS IN FACT OTHER THAN WHAT YOU
LIKE BETTER."
Or in your case, "I hate your opinion, but I'm not smart enough to
defend mine, so I'm going to call you a stupid poopy-head!"
Maybe you think they sound all the same because Japanese is truely a
foreign language to you, thus your brain processes it not as a voice but
as generic sound? Getting emotional cues from a human voice comes
through the speech processing centres of the brain. You can train
yourself to listen to a language without understanding it to pick up the
emotional cues.
Shorter link: <http://makeashorterlink.com/?L1B023FC6>
> If you want to think they're better and
> that what I just said is bullshit, then fine. But don't go saying there
> is anything but utter subjectivity in your opinion.
Quality in any art is subjective, but it's still something people can
manage to agree on. And strangely enough, opinions tend to cluster.
Lots of people think The Godfather is a tremendous movie. Lots of
people think Citizen Kane is the best American movie ever. Sure, some
people disagree, but there is clustering of opinion thus a basis for
stating something as being not just a personal opinion.
There is a clustering about voice work in anime, but it's divided neatly
into two camps. Those who think Japanese actors lack talent, variety
and emotion, and the rest of us who can actually listen to Japanese.
> JEEZUS.
No good calling on the Good Savoir for help. He won't help you with
your weak specious arguments.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Travers Naran | Visit the SFTV Science Blunders
F/T Programmer,P/T Meddler In Time&Space | Hall of Infamy!
New Westminster, British Columbia, |
Canada, Earth, Milky Way, etc. | <www.geocities.com/naran500/>
Travers Naran
> Travers Naran wrote:
>
>>> 2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu industry is very
>>> competitive and also how serious the Japanese take voice acting
Please don't attribute that original quote to me. I don't really
disagree with it, but I do want to make sure I don't accredited with
things that weren't mine. ;-)
> While the Japanese voice acting industry does have a lot more experience
> then most dubbing studios, I don't automatically accept that everything
> they do is super-ultra-amazing. I find plenty of boring, by-the-numbers
> acting and casting, not to mention all the "cute" mouse-on-helium female
> voices that I can't stand. Dubs tend to have a much wider variety of
> voices, which I appreciate a lot.
Oh yeah, that's certainly true. "Hana Yori Dango"'s Japanese voice cast
is attrocious and their sound mixing horrible. I was disappointed the
dub didn't try to excede the low bar set by their Japanese counterparts.
:-( I find it's more true for kids' shows than for anime aimed at older
audiences.
As I've said before, the Japanese voices for Naru and Keitaro never
worked for me, but the English ones did. Alas, they then screwed up
everything else, but I digress...
> Fact is anime is low-budget stuff compared to original US animation
> productions, and aside from the current top seiyuu they get paid less
> per hour then the average dub voice actor. And you don't have to take my
> word for it, take a look at this:
>
> http://homepage2.nifty.com/kannagi/A11.htm
And there's a lot of competition for those roles compared to dub work in
North America. But if the dub voice actors are paid more, that just
adds to the injustice of the situation in my books...
> ...or listen to the Patlabor OVA commentary track, where Mamoru Oshii
> notes that if you get 3 good actors out of 10 you've done good.
But those 10 are still better than average 10 of recent dub efforts.
>> The problem is the voice sub industry in North America is pulling from
>> a small pool of actors of mediocre quality.
>
> Dubbing studios are located all over North America. The size and
> experience of the talent pools they draw from vary a lot. For example,
> from an earlier post I seem to recall you dissing I My Me! Strawberry
> Eggs, while praising ADV's (Excel Saga) and Coastal's efforts.
But even in the big cities, the pool they draw from is small compared to
original American animations.
> Eggs was done in LA, and features for example W. Morgan Sheppard (under
> an alias), who's done plenty of animation (Gargoyles) and live action...
> You're a Babylon 5 fan aren't you? He was the first Soul Hunter, and
> later Warleader G'Sten in "The Long Twilight Struggle".
I know who he is. :-) But his work wasn't the one I was having problems
with.
> Meanwhile, ADV and Coastal are located in Texas and North Carolina
> respectively, far away from any mainstream voice acting industry. I
> don't believe they have any full time voice actors, most of them aren't
> even full time actors, having "day jobs" as hairdressers, etc.
Yup. Especially North Carolina. Although ADV subcontracts out,
n'est-ce pas? But they managed to find some good people out there.
> Now, I'm not making any comments on the quality of these dubs, good or
> bad, but you might want to consider that there are other factors then
> purely the skill/experience of the actors that make like/dislike these
> dubs.
For me, the problems has always been the skill and experience of the
actors and ADR directory. Of course the sound mixing can get on my
nerves too, but that's usually when the voice acting is sub-par.
>> There is a highly competitive animation voice over industry in North
>> America, and the better actors command high wages.
>
> Scott McNeil (The Principal in Ranma, Duo Maxwell in Gundam Wing, Koga
> in Inu-Yasha) is a full time VA, and buys himself a new sports car ever
> other year or so. Of course, he does a lot of original animated shows too.
That's the kind of guy I'm thinking of. There are a couple others who
do very well in the industry. Tress McNeil probably has more animation
credits than any other currently working voice actress.
>> Most dubs are done on shoe-string budgets.
>
> This can vary, based on how well the title is expected to sell. Except
> the occasional attempt at drawing in stars (like the Armitage movies),
> the pay for dubbing is usually fixed according to the market (this too
> varies), so bigger budgets generally mean that the studio will be able
> to spend more time on polishing the acting (and mixing), and hire larger
> casts.
But how many TV series can you think of where they have a large budget
per episode? It's also production schedule too. If they have to pump
out a DVD a month, that can also be a factor.
>> A good translator/adaptor can overcome almost all of this. To be a
>> good translator, you have to be a good writer too.
>
> There are studios that employ professional writers for their dub
> scripts. Lydia Marano (Gargoyles, Roughnecks) did one of the Tenchi
> movies, and Lucia Frangione is an award winning playwright:
>
> http://www.crystalacids.com/database/writer/frangione_lucia.html
Lucia's credit for Betterman does not instill me with confidence. I
thought the adaptation job was really bad on that. To be fair, the
dialog was really hard to adapt, but still an exception to my own rule.
>> You must know how to convey those meaning in English without resorting
>> to awkward translations (e.g., "Upperclassman Kuno").
>
> I thought "Upperclassman Kuno" was great, because it's perfectly in
> character for him to come up with something as stupid and awkward.
But that's adding something that was NOT in the original. Calling a
high school senior "sempai" was pretty normal for awhile in Japan. It
just doesn't fit. Also, Ukyo's "Ra-chan" being translated as
"Ranma-honey" missed the point: that was the nickname Ukyo gave to Ranma
when they were kids. They still called each other by their childish
nicknames.
>> An example of dub done RIGHT: FLCL. You're missing very little from
>> the Japanese. They even managed to make the puns work in English.
>
> Would you believe the voice director/script adapter and some of the main
> actors' careers go back to the Robotech/Voltron days?
It's not on Crystal Acids site. Although checking out Marc Handler's
website, I see you are right. But it's interesting to note he was a
working writer in his own right. Thus renewing faith in my rule that a
good adapter is a good writer. :-)
SukiyakiSushi82
>you can even TELL it's a 70s show. But they throw in references to
>everything from Shaq to Bill Clinton. It's very jarring.
However it's funny to point out those mistakes that Pioneer made. In their
Secret of Mamo dub, they updated the President's voice to sound like that of
George W. The funny part was that in the same scene Mamo presses a button
reading "USSR" to talk to the Russian president. When the Hitler episode is
dubbed, it's going to be impossible to update it because of the Berlin Wall
being in it.
The Eternal Lost Lurker
> Apparently there are often differences between subtitles and dubs, and
> there are many good reasons for this. I may have to consider watching
> the subs, at least in some cases, in addition to the dubs.
Yes, you should. Not only for this reason, but because while it's okay to
prefer dubs, it's equally important to at least watch the subtitled version
of a show once, just so you can appreciate the difference between the
original and dub voices, plus whatever other changes are made.
In addition, there are some shows which are so horribly butchered in the
dubbing and (in most of such cases) editing process, the only way you'll
ever experience the show as it should be is by watching the subbed version.
Examples include Cardcaptor Sakura, Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon, Rockman.EXE,
Yugioh, and Love Hina.
Conversely, there are SOME shows which are better experienced dubbed for a
number of reasons--usually because the show itself involves so many elements
which are distinctly non-Japanese that conveying it in English makes it make
more SENSE than the Japanese version, or else just plain feels more
appropriate. Examples of THIS include (note, this is purely my opinion):
Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, Outlaw Star, The Big O.
For most anime, though, sub or dub is merely going to be a matter of
personal taste/choice.
> Thank you to everybody who contributed to my education on this
> subject.
> Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
Hey, happy to help. Every person we educate means there's one less ignorant
n00b to kill.
The Eternal Lost Lurker
"Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9451BCE951...@66.185.95.104...
> If you want to listen to crappy mass-produced Japanese voice actors who
> all sound alike and have women who talk in voices never meant to come
> from a human throat, then fine. If you want to think they're better and
> that what I just said is bullshit, then fine. But don't go saying there
> is anything but utter subjectivity in your opinion.
*applause*
Couldn't have said it better myself.
David Nakamoto
news:20031214095116...@mb-m04.aol.com...
> In article
<kYXCb.193927$Ec1.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> >
> >"Touma" <to...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >>
> >> Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
> >> and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
The difference is that the common language of both is filled with
idosynchracies that mean something to a native speaker and not to someone
who learned the "school" version. This happens even in English, where the
Brits have one dialect, the Southerners another, etc. When it's different
languages, the situation is the same. Hence, to get as close to the actual
feeling of a phrase, my Mom told me to pick an American English phrase that
would fit the person and the situation. Sometimes the direct translation of
the Japanese phrase doesn't carry the emotional impact in English that the
Japanese word requires.
> For me, a lot of the time the English voice acting is, well, inferior to
the
> Japanese. Megumi Hayashibara is Lina Inverse; the American actors, uhh
> are not, for instance.
>
> On the other hand, I'm not sure how much that this is me having heard
the
> original first. I like the Tenchi Muyo dub about as well as the Japanese
> for instance, but I saw the dubs first.
It might be first impressions, but for me not always. For instance, I
like the Japanese voicing for Lina Inverse, but I love the English voicing
for Xellos, because he sounds more like a wise-guy than the Japanese one
does, and it fits the character better.
The Eternal Lost Lurker
"Travers Naran" <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in message
news:8c7Db.10586$OJ.7239@edtnps84...
> No such thing as factually better acting?
Exactly.
> There are generally agreed upon opinions on which movies are better than
> others and which actors are better than others. These opinions tend to
> cluster. It's not just a "personal" thing.
Being popular opinion doesn't make something fact. Popular opinion used to
be the world was flat. This has been disproven. It is not fact. Popular
opinion used to be that the sun revolved around the Earth. This has been
disproven. It is not fact.
Popular opinion does not equal fact. Popular opinion equals opinion. Opinion
is subjective. Fact is objective.
> > If you want to think they're better and
> > that what I just said is bullshit, then fine. But don't go saying there
> > is anything but utter subjectivity in your opinion.
>
> Quality in any art is subjective, but it's still something people can
> manage to agree on. And strangely enough, opinions tend to cluster.
Opinions can cluster till the moon fucks the sun, that still don't make 'em
fact.
> Lots of people think The Godfather is a tremendous movie. Lots of
> people think Citizen Kane is the best American movie ever. Sure, some
> people disagree, but there is clustering of opinion thus a basis for
> stating something as being not just a personal opinion.
You're right. Clustered opinions cease to become personal opinions. They
become group opinions. Group opinions are no more and no less valid than
personal opinions, and they STILL do not equate to FACT.
> > JEEZUS.
>
> No good calling on the Good Savoir for help. He won't help you with
> your weak specious arguments.
Nice attempt at wit. I give it a 3.
Pete Holland Jr.
> Well, all language used in everyday life are metaphorical and...
> This is why there are so many different translations for the same line
> of dialog.
Point taken. I hope I didn't sound insulting. If anything, I kind of
prefer the "poetic" stuff. I don't always understand it, but compared
to some US dialogue were every other word is a swear word, seemingly
because that's how the writer was being paid, it sounds a lot more
eloquent. Then again, it could be because I don't hear that kind of
expression very often. As you point out, constant exposure would lessen
its effect.
> That's always a hard call. When the material is dated, should you bring
> the dialog up to date as well?
With comedy, it's a simple test for me: is the new stuff funny, and is
it funny enough to justify buying it again? Being that subjective
measures are being used, there may never be a satisfactory answer in a
Big Picture kind of way.
> Although I do love the re-writers on MXC. They come up with some
> hilarious material all on their own.
Amen to that, brother! When I first watched MXC, I was repulsed by
seeing some of the injuries people took and the sheer preposterousness
of the games (the principal reason I refuse to watch Fear Factor, Dog
Eat Dog, and others of that ilk). I tuned in in the middle, so I didn't
really notice the "announcers" right away. Afterwards, I thought about
a couple of the lines I heard and decided to give the humor a chance.
Now, I'm thoroughly hooked. Watching things like the New Jersey version
of MXC nearly made me fall out of my chair. I still don't know how they
can look at footage of Takeshi scratching his nose and turn it into a
psychological conditioning gag or the "She went down just like this!"
"No, it was like this!"
Dobre utka,
Pete Holland Jr.
who, when he heard "Captain Teneile," slapped his head and said, "Why
didn't I think of that?!?"
Travers Naran
> "Travers Naran" <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in message
> news:8c7Db.10586$OJ.7239@edtnps84...
>
>>No such thing as factually better acting?
>
> Exactly.
I always find it funny how only fanboys ever say that. Usually when
they have an indefensible position.
>> There are generally agreed upon opinions on which movies are better than
>>others and which actors are better than others. These opinions tend to
>>cluster. It's not just a "personal" thing.
>
> Being popular opinion doesn't make something fact. Popular opinion used to
> be the world was flat. This has been disproven. It is not fact. Popular
> opinion used to be that the sun revolved around the Earth. This has been
> disproven. It is not fact.
>
> Popular opinion does not equal fact. Popular opinion equals opinion. Opinion
> is subjective. Fact is objective.
First off, you're using straw men arguments to discredit comparisons in
the subjective domain. Your examples have to do with verifiable
physically observable phenomenon, but you said acting was a subjective
truth. Those examples aren't even remotely comparable.
You're saying that subjective cannot be compared or debated. This in
defiance of several thousand years of human thought! Art has always
been debated and compared. Acting has always been debated and compared.
And that one way these things can be argues is that there is a body of
"accepted opinion" that one can argue from. You're saying that you
don't care about the body of accepted opinion and that all points of
view are equally valid.
So, are you deconstructionist who believes all points of view are
equally valid? In which case, I'm perfectly right in saying Japanese
voice actors are talented and varied, and you are perfectly right in
saying they aren't. And you're perfectly right in thinking your not a
soft-minded fuzzy thinker, and I'm perfectly right in thinking you're an
idiot. It's a subjective opinion so you can't argue against it. You
said so yourself.
As well, you don't really understand "subjective" and "objective" as
well as you think you do.
>>>If you want to think they're better and
>>>that what I just said is bullshit, then fine. But don't go saying there
>>>is anything but utter subjectivity in your opinion.
>>
>>Quality in any art is subjective, but it's still something people can
>>manage to agree on. And strangely enough, opinions tend to cluster.
>
> Opinions can cluster till the moon fucks the sun, that still don't make 'em
> fact.
But then what's your point? That you can go around saying "Japanese
voice actors all suck!" and no one can say otherwise? You're de facto
claiming YOU are the objective ones.
>>Lots of people think The Godfather is a tremendous movie. Lots of
>>people think Citizen Kane is the best American movie ever. Sure, some
>>people disagree, but there is clustering of opinion thus a basis for
>>stating something as being not just a personal opinion.
>
> You're right. Clustered opinions cease to become personal opinions. They
> become group opinions. Group opinions are no more and no less valid than
> personal opinions, and they STILL do not equate to FACT.
Again, you confuse what I said originally, which was my opinion, with me
stating it as fact. Yet when a dub-fan starts disparaging Japanese
voice actors left, right and centre without any disclaimers that "this
is just my opinion", I'm just supposed to lie down and accept it?
>>>JEEZUS.
>>
>>No good calling on the Good Savoir for help. He won't help you with
>>your weak specious arguments.
>
> Nice attempt at wit. I give it a 3.
Out of 3! YAAAAY! I can say out of 3 because wit is also subjective.
Blade
> Blade wrote:
>
>> "Unforgiven" <jaap...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:brhudg$3b1fs$1...@ID-136341.news.uni-berlin.de:
>>
>> <snip to the relevent idiocy>
>>
>> 2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu
>>
>>>industry is very competitive and also how serious the Japanese take
>>>voice acting and several other factors usually mean the Japanese
>>>version is factually (not just subjectively) better.
>>
>>
>> NO.
>>
>> IT.
>>
>> IS.
>>
>> NOT.
>>
>> Jeezus H. Christ, you blithering dipshit. There is not such thing
>> as FACTUALLY BETTER ACTING. It is entirely your opinion, your
>> SUBJECTIVE OPINION, that has NO BASIS IN FACT OTHER THAN WHAT YOU
>> LIKE BETTER.
>
> No such thing as factually better acting?
Correct. I'm glad you and an obvious truth could meet, even if was only
for a brief time.
> There are generally
> agreed upon opinions on which movies are better than others and
> which actors are better than others. These opinions tend to
> cluster. It's not just a "personal" thing.
Yes it is. An opinion that a group shares is an opinion nonetheless.
>> If you want to listen to crappy mass-produced Japanese voice actors
>> who all sound alike and have women who talk in voices never meant
>> to come from a human throat, then fine.
>
> "your SUBJECTIVE OPINION, that has NO BASIS IN FACT OTHER THAN WHAT
> YOU LIKE BETTER."
Very good. There was a point to that.
> Or in your case, "I hate your opinion, but I'm not smart enough to
> defend mine, so I'm going to call you a stupid poopy-head!"
You can't defend an opinion. That's the whole point, which anybody with
at least a tenuous grasp on reality could have informed you.
> Maybe you think they sound all the same because Japanese is truely a
> foreign language to you, thus your brain processes it not as a voice
> but as generic sound? Getting emotional cues from a human voice
Except for all those times, in those very occasional good Japanese dubs,
where I -can- tell the voices apart. Or rather, I can tell they're not
just desperately imitating Megumi Hayashibara.
> comes through the speech processing centres of the brain. You can
> train yourself to listen to a language without understanding it to
> pick up the emotional cues.
I'm sure you can. That has not the slightest bit to do with my disliking
of Japanese voice acting, however.
> Example:
> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg&cmd=Retrie
> ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8981399&dopt=Abstract>
>
> Shorter link: <http://makeashorterlink.com/?L1B023FC6>
>
>> If you want to think they're better and
>> that what I just said is bullshit, then fine.
You sort of missed that part. Actually, I think you deliberately missed
that part in order to make an extremely weak attempt to pin me for
hypocrisy, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and allow for the
possibility that you simply have severe reading comprehension problems.
>>But don't go saying
>> there is anything but utter subjectivity in your opinion.
>
> Quality in any art is subjective, but it's still something people
THANK YOU. That is the end of the dub vs. sub quality debate. Please
move on.
> can manage to agree on. And strangely enough, opinions tend to
> cluster. Lots of people think The Godfather is a tremendous movie.
> Lots of people think Citizen Kane is the best American movie ever.
> Sure, some people disagree, but there is clustering of opinion thus
> a basis for stating something as being not just a personal opinion.
And now you're backtracking into drooling imbecility again. Sigh.
> There is a clustering about voice work in anime, but it's divided
> neatly into two camps. Those who think Japanese actors lack talent,
> variety and emotion, and the rest of us who can actually listen to
> Japanese.
Yes, that was a nice piece of fiction.
>> JEEZUS.
>
> No good calling on the Good Savoir for help. He won't help you with
> your weak specious arguments.
You destroyed your own argument right in the middle by admitting that art
quality is subjective. Incidentally, I know of no saviour named
"Jeezus".
Aren't you the same dickwad from a month or so ago that was spouting this
bullshit? I thought I killfiled you. Oh well, a mistake easily
rectified.
The Eternal Lost Lurker
> >
> >>No such thing as factually better acting?
> >
> > Exactly.
>
> I always find it funny how only fanboys ever say that. Usually when
> they have an indefensible position.
*snrk* Right. Fanboys. Despite the fact that I watch far more dubbed anime
than I do subbed anime, I'm a fanboy.
Despite the fact that I can't name half as many Japanese voice actors as
anyone else on this newsgroup, I'm a fanboy.
Despite the fact that I can make up my own mind about what I like regardless
of what anyone else says, I'm a fanboy.
You are an amusingly ridiculous person.
Okay, let me try a different approach.
Is Tom Cruise a factually better actor than Keanu Reeves?
Is Kirk Douglas a factually better actor than Michael Douglas?
Is Digimon factually better than Pokemon?
Is a Chevy factually better than a Ford?
The answer to all the above is "NO." The reason? Because these are all
MATTERS OF OPINION, just as it is a MATTER OF OPINION whether Japanese or
English voice actors in anime are superior.
> > Popular opinion does not equal fact. Popular opinion equals opinion.
Opinion
> > is subjective. Fact is objective.
>
> First off, you're using straw men arguments to discredit comparisons in
> the subjective domain. Your examples have to do with verifiable
> physically observable phenomenon, but you said acting was a subjective
> truth. Those examples aren't even remotely comparable.
My examples prove my point rather nicely, and you're being evasive. These
are not straw man arguments. These are letter-perfect examples of exactly
why what YOU said is bullshit, and why anyone with half a brain can tell you
that fact and opinion are entirely different animals.
Here's a hint, asscheese: Any time you use the word "better" in a statement,
it's an opinion. "Better" has no place in matters of fact. I can say the
GameCube is better than an Atari 2600, and while it may FACTUALLY be
technologically superior, it's still a statement of opinion, because someone
might come along, play seven GameCube games, play seven Atari 2600 games,
and declare the Atari 2600 "better" because they enjoyed the games more.
The same applies to your argument of "factually better" seiyuu. It's a
subjective argument, and thus is a matter of opinion.
> You're saying that subjective cannot be compared or debated.
I'm not saying any such thing. Learn to read. I'm saying that opinion is
subjective and fact is objective. I'm saying nothing more and nothing less.
If I say a hydrogen atom has one proton in the nucleus, that's objective
fact. It's proven. It's established. It's true. If I say that gold is better
than silver because it's prettier, that's subjective. It's my opinion. It
can be argued with. It can be debated. If I say Scott McNeil is a voice
actor, that's objective fact. It can be proven. It can be established as
true. If I say that Scott McNeil is a better voice actor than Midorikawa
Hikaru, that's subjective. It can be argued with. It can be debated.
You really need to learn a little vocabulary before you start trying to
argue with your betters, Travers. And reading comprehension. It'd really
help your debating skills.
> And that one way these things can be argues is that there is a body of
> "accepted opinion" that one can argue from. You're saying that you
> don't care about the body of accepted opinion and that all points of
> view are equally valid.
Exactly. BECAUSE THEY ARE. The opinion is one person is no more or less
valid than the opinion of seven billion. I have a shirt that I think is more
purple than blue. a dozen people have commented on what a pretty shade of
blue that shirt is. Do I think of it as a blue shirt just because they don't
see the purple in it? No, I think of it as a purple shirt. I don't like
Beethoven, Picasso, or Tolkein. Millions of people worldwide regard them as
epitomes of their art. Does that mean I should also regard them as such? No,
because Beethoven puts me to sleep, Picasso paintings do nothing for me, and
Tolkein's prose is just about the dryest dreck I've ever tried to force
myself to read.
You can call these "straw man" arguments all you want and misread or
deliberately misinterpret what I'm saying, but the simple truth is that I've
blown a giant gaping hole in your original point, and you can do absolutely
nothing to negate that.
> So, are you deconstructionist who believes all points of view are
> equally valid? In which case, I'm perfectly right in saying Japanese
> voice actors are talented and varied, and you are perfectly right in
> saying they aren't.
I never said they aren't. I just said it's not a matter of FACT that they're
superior. Which it isn't.
> And you're perfectly right in thinking your not a
> soft-minded fuzzy thinker, and I'm perfectly right in thinking you're an
> idiot. It's a subjective opinion so you can't argue against it. You
> said so yourself.
Exactly. Whatever you want to think of me doesn't matter to me, because it's
your opinion and not mine. Just like it's my opinion that you're an inbred
dipshit who can't read and lacks half a brain cell to formulate a coherent
thought.
> As well, you don't really understand "subjective" and "objective" as
> well as you think you do.
Except that I *DO*, and have proven that YOU do NOT.
> > Opinions can cluster till the moon fucks the sun, that still don't make
'em
> > fact.
>
> But then what's your point? That you can go around saying "Japanese
> voice actors all suck!" and no one can say otherwise? You're de facto
> claiming YOU are the objective ones.
Umm...no. You seem, first of all, to be under the mistaken impression that I
expressed an opinion one way or the other. I didn't.
My POINT IS, as I should have thought was already ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, that the
opinions of a large group of people do not add together to form a fact.
Opinion is opinion, fact is fact. Can you, with your limited intelligence,
comprehend this? Or do I need to start using illustrations?
> > You're right. Clustered opinions cease to become personal opinions. They
> > become group opinions. Group opinions are no more and no less valid than
> > personal opinions, and they STILL do not equate to FACT.
>
> Again, you confuse what I said originally, which was my opinion, with me
> stating it as fact.
Stating your opinion as fact is a good way to get smacked down, boyo.
> Yet when a dub-fan starts disparaging Japanese
> voice actors left, right and centre without any disclaimers that "this
> is just my opinion", I'm just supposed to lie down and accept it?
No, but declaring something as factually true when it isn't tends to
discredit your arguments.
> >>No good calling on the Good Savoir for help. He won't help you with
> >>your weak specious arguments.
> >
> > Nice attempt at wit. I give it a 3.
>
> Out of 3! YAAAAY! I can say out of 3 because wit is also subjective.
Not when you're only a half-wit.
The Eternal Lost Lurker
"The Eternal Lost Lurker" <os...@raspberry.hv> wrote in message
news:pY9Db.560$fQ.286...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>
> *snrk* Right. Fanboys. Despite the fact that I watch far more dubbed anime
> than I do subbed anime, I'm a fanboy.
That should be more subbed than dubbed. I shouldn't type while my attention
is split in five directions. -_-
8-Bit Star
> Pete Holland Jr. wrote:
> > IIRC, the rerelease of Lupin The 3rd has the jokes rewritten to make
> > them more current. (Haven't seen either of them except for the video
> > game "Cliff Hanger", but it's on my list to check out sometime.)
>
> That's always a hard call. When the material is dated, should you bring
> the dialog up to date as well?
Hell no. There's too many people who think that... but if people can laugh
at the classic jokes and references of Bugs Bunny to this day, they can
appreciate some "dated" humor. I can not think of a single time that trying
to "update" a "dated" material has ever been anything but a catastrophe.
paranormalized
*snip snip*
> Why the hell is the fricking 90s Sub Nazi Clique
>popping out of nowhere?
>
Hmmm, isn't it a bit early to invoke Godel's Law? Or are you *trying*
to end the tread, Blade?
Jonathan Fisher
----------
paranormalized man, subnormalized otaku
ROT13 and then delete all instances of the letter after P to email
Blade
news:tibqtv04gtop5rt5a...@4ax.com:
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:40:29 GMT, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> *snip snip*
>> Why the hell is the fricking 90s Sub Nazi Clique
>>popping out of nowhere?
>>
> Hmmm, isn't it a bit early to invoke Godel's Law? Or are you *trying*
> to end the tread, Blade?
1) "Sub Nazi" isn't a reference to the real Nazis in any but the most
vague sense.
2) It's "Godwin's Law".
3) And if these threads would end, I would be overjoyed.
Travers Naran
> "Travers Naran" <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in message
> news:Iz9Db.10712$OJ.9058@edtnps84...
>
>>>>No such thing as factually better acting?
>>>
>>>Exactly.
>>
>>I always find it funny how only fanboys ever say that. Usually when
>>they have an indefensible position.
>
> *snrk* Right. Fanboys. Despite the fact that I watch far more dubbed anime
> than I do subbed anime, I'm a fanboy.
Well, if the shoe fits...
> Despite the fact that I can't name half as many Japanese voice actors as
> anyone else on this newsgroup, I'm a fanboy.
No, as in someone so enthused and self-absorbed with their own personal
love that they are oblivious to other points of view. At least I try to
explain my point of view.
> Okay, let me try a different approach.
>
> Is Tom Cruise a factually better actor than Keanu Reeves?
Yes.
> Is Kirk Douglas a factually better actor than Michael Douglas?
Too close to call.
> Is Digimon factually better than Pokemon?
Technically or story wise? The opinion of those who watch it seem
fairly decided on Digimon being better. See, they can be compared and
debated.
> Is a Chevy factually better than a Ford?
Too broad a question. Make a specific model and define your criteria
for better.
> The answer to all the above is "NO." The reason? Because these are all
> MATTERS OF OPINION, just as it is a MATTER OF OPINION whether Japanese or
> English voice actors in anime are superior.
But an opinion is based on criteria, and I'm arguing there is enough
common criteria in a subjective domain to compare things with.
>>First off, you're using straw men arguments to discredit comparisons in
>>the subjective domain. Your examples have to do with verifiable
>>physically observable phenomenon, but you said acting was a subjective
>>truth. Those examples aren't even remotely comparable.
>
> My examples prove my point rather nicely, and you're being evasive. These
> are not straw man arguments. These are letter-perfect examples of exactly
> why what YOU said is bullshit
No, they are not. They are examples of comparing apples to oranges.
The criteria for determining truth for physical phenomenon is different
than the criteria for determining the quality of art. The physical
world is so different from the subjective realm you are talking about
that it's really pointless to compare them.
> and why anyone with half a brain can tell you
> that fact and opinion are entirely different animals.
Fact and opinion are different animals, but opinion can be argued and
compared still.
> Here's a hint, asscheese: Any time you use the word "better" in a statement,
> it's an opinion. "Better" has no place in matters of fact. I can say the
> GameCube is better than an Atari 2600, and while it may FACTUALLY be
> technologically superior, it's still a statement of opinion, because someone
> might come along, play seven GameCube games, play seven Atari 2600 games,
> and declare the Atari 2600 "better" because they enjoyed the games more.
No, they can say they enjoyed the games more, but the criteria for
judging better are the same. Graphics, comlexity of game play, sound
quality. These are criteria common to both platforms which most people
agree are a sound base for comparing the systems. Things can be better
than other things, but you're personal taste can be different. That's
what I'm getting at: you've confused your personal tastes with opinions.
I have personal tastes, you have personal tastes. True, they cannot
really be compared except on a gross level (e.g., if someone personally
likes Jackass, the majority of people feel OK to look down on the
person), but there is a common set of criteria people agree on in
subjective domains to compare their opinions of things.
> The same applies to your argument of "factually better" seiyuu. It's a
> subjective argument, and thus is a matter of opinion.
I didn't say "factually better". I just said better which was an
informed opinion using criteria most people respect (ability to convey
emotion, create unique characters, etc.) Where we have a massive
disagreement is where I've always heard good qualities in Japanese voice
actors, you claim there aren't.
>>You're saying that subjective cannot be compared or debated.
>
> I'm not saying any such thing. Learn to read. I'm saying that opinion is
> subjective and fact is objective. I'm saying nothing more and nothing less.
Which isn't really saying anything.
> If I say a hydrogen atom has one proton in the nucleus, that's objective
> fact. It's proven. It's established. It's true. If I say that gold is better
> than silver because it's prettier, that's subjective. It's my opinion. It
> can be argued with. It can be debated. If I say Scott McNeil is a voice
> actor, that's objective fact. It can be proven. It can be established as
> true. If I say that Scott McNeil is a better voice actor than Midorikawa
> Hikaru, that's subjective. It can be argued with. It can be debated.
But why are you slamming contrary opinions as though you have some
special perch to see the truth from?
> You really need to learn a little vocabulary before you start trying to
> argue with your betters, Travers. And reading comprehension. It'd really
> help your debating skills.
Betters?? What I'm reading from you tells me you've never taking a
critical thinking course in your life. You don't really understand the
difference between taste and opinion. The nature of subjectivity and
objectivity, which isn't as clear cut as you think when you get deeper
into philosophy.
>> And that one way these things can be argues is that there is a body of
>>"accepted opinion" that one can argue from. You're saying that you
>>don't care about the body of accepted opinion and that all points of
>>view are equally valid.
>
> Exactly. BECAUSE THEY ARE. The opinion is one person is no more or less
> valid than the opinion of seven billion.
Some opinions are more valid if they are more informed.
> I have a shirt that I think is more
> purple than blue. a dozen people have commented on what a pretty shade of
> blue that shirt is. Do I think of it as a blue shirt just because they don't
> see the purple in it? No, I think of it as a purple shirt. I don't like
> Beethoven, Picasso, or Tolkein. Millions of people worldwide regard them as
> epitomes of their art. Does that mean I should also regard them as such? No,
> because Beethoven puts me to sleep, Picasso paintings do nothing for me, and
> Tolkein's prose is just about the dryest dreck I've ever tried to force
> myself to read.
Which really doesn't put you into a good light.
> You can call these "straw man" arguments all you want and misread or
> deliberately misinterpret what I'm saying, but the simple truth is that I've
> blown a giant gaping hole in your original point, and you can do absolutely
> nothing to negate that.
Only in your little mind. You don't have a point to argue. You confuse
personal taste and opinion. Misunderstand the nature of subjectivity
and make some interesting claims about objectivity.
> I never said they aren't. I just said it's not a matter of FACT that they're
> superior. Which it isn't.
And I'm trying to argue my point by showing the criteria I judge
performance by and showing how they compare.
>> And you're perfectly right in thinking your not a
>>soft-minded fuzzy thinker, and I'm perfectly right in thinking you're an
>>idiot. It's a subjective opinion so you can't argue against it. You
>>said so yourself.
>
> Exactly. Whatever you want to think of me doesn't matter to me, because it's
> your opinion and not mine. Just like it's my opinion that you're an inbred
> dipshit who can't read and lacks half a brain cell to formulate a coherent
> thought.
Whatever, dude. Basically, you have a world view and you don't want
anyone to challenge it. Fine. Be self-absorbed.
>>As well, you don't really understand "subjective" and "objective" as
>>well as you think you do.
>
> Except that I *DO*, and have proven that YOU do NOT.
No, you've demonstrated you don't understand the nature of "subjective".
>>But then what's your point? That you can go around saying "Japanese
>>voice actors all suck!" and no one can say otherwise? You're de facto
>>claiming YOU are the objective ones.
>
> Umm...no. You seem, first of all, to be under the mistaken impression that I
> expressed an opinion one way or the other. I didn't.
You did express that opinion.
> My POINT IS, as I should have thought was already ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, that the
> opinions of a large group of people do not add together to form a fact.
> Opinion is opinion, fact is fact. Can you, with your limited intelligence,
> comprehend this? Or do I need to start using illustrations?
There are opinions and then there are opinions. They're not all created
equal. You also confuse an informed opinion with expressing something
as fact.
> Stating your opinion as fact is a good way to get smacked down, boyo.
And confusing opinion and fact is a good way to get smacked back.
>> Yet when a dub-fan starts disparaging Japanese
>>voice actors left, right and centre without any disclaimers that "this
>>is just my opinion", I'm just supposed to lie down and accept it?
>
> No, but declaring something as factually true when it isn't tends to
> discredit your arguments.
I didn't declare it as "factually" true. Maybe it's your reading
comprehension that's in question?
>>Out of 3! YAAAAY! I can say out of 3 because wit is also subjective.
>
> Not when you're only a half-wit.
I won't hold your half-wittedness against your judgement of my wit. :-P
Travers Naran
> Travers Naran <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in
> news:8c7Db.10586$OJ.7239@edtnps84:
>
>>Blade wrote:
>>
>>No such thing as factually better acting?
>
> Correct. I'm glad you and an obvious truth could meet, even if was only
> for a brief time.
There is such a thing as factually better acting as there is such a
thing as factually better drawing. There is a common set of criteria
most people agree defines good acting.
> Yes it is. An opinion that a group shares is an opinion nonetheless.
Yes, and opinions are not just "whims".
>>"your SUBJECTIVE OPINION, that has NO BASIS IN FACT OTHER THAN WHAT
>>YOU LIKE BETTER."
>
> Very good. There was a point to that.
>
>>Or in your case, "I hate your opinion, but I'm not smart enough to
>>defend mine, so I'm going to call you a stupid poopy-head!"
>
> You can't defend an opinion. That's the whole point, which anybody with
> at least a tenuous grasp on reality could have informed you.
You can defend an opinion. You can argue for or against it.
> Except for all those times, in those very occasional good Japanese dubs,
> where I -can- tell the voices apart. Or rather, I can tell they're not
> just desperately imitating Megumi Hayashibara.
Or those rare times when an English dub isn't just a bunch of reject
actors phoning in their performances.
>>comes through the speech processing centres of the brain. You can
>>train yourself to listen to a language without understanding it to
>>pick up the emotional cues.
>
> I'm sure you can. That has not the slightest bit to do with my disliking
> of Japanese voice acting, however.
You mentioned them sounding all the same without any variety in voice or
able to add emotion to their performance.
>>>If you want to think they're better and
>>>that what I just said is bullshit, then fine.
>
> You sort of missed that part. Actually, I think you deliberately missed
> that part in order to make an extremely weak attempt to pin me for
> hypocrisy, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and allow for the
> possibility that you simply have severe reading comprehension problems.
No, I'm allowing for the fact that you resorted to ad hominem first
rather than properly challenging my opinion on whether or not English
dub crews provide good voice acting.
>>Quality in any art is subjective, but it's still something people
>
> THANK YOU. That is the end of the dub vs. sub quality debate. Please
> move on.
No, it isn't. People argue about art all the time. Basically anyone
who expresses an opinion contrary to yours should just "shut up" because
it can't be proven or disproven and it hurts your feelings. That's the
only reason I can think of why these debates always ends up in personal
attacks on the person's intelligence and capabilities.
>>can manage to agree on. And strangely enough, opinions tend to
>>cluster. Lots of people think The Godfather is a tremendous movie.
>>Lots of people think Citizen Kane is the best American movie ever.
>>Sure, some people disagree, but there is clustering of opinion thus
>>a basis for stating something as being not just a personal opinion.
>
> And now you're backtracking into drooling imbecility again. Sigh.
No, I'm not. I'm pointing out there are commonly shared criteria for
judging art, and a basis for arguing the relative merits of various
opinions.
>>There is a clustering about voice work in anime, but it's divided
>>neatly into two camps. Those who think Japanese actors lack talent,
>>variety and emotion, and the rest of us who can actually listen to
>>Japanese.
>
> Yes, that was a nice piece of fiction.
Yeah, the first camp doesn't think.
>>>JEEZUS.
>>
>>No good calling on the Good Savoir for help. He won't help you with
>>your weak specious arguments.
>
> You destroyed your own argument right in the middle by admitting that art
> quality is subjective. Incidentally, I know of no saviour named
> "Jeezus".
It's a Southern spelling variation. Think of it as an American Osaka-ben.
> Aren't you the same dickwad from a month or so ago that was spouting this
> bullshit? I thought I killfiled you. Oh well, a mistake easily
> rectified.
It will be your loss to be enlightened.
Alan
> >> And that one way these things can be argues is that there is a body of
> >>"accepted opinion" that one can argue from. You're saying that you
> >>don't care about the body of accepted opinion and that all points of
> >>view are equally valid.
> >
> > Exactly. BECAUSE THEY ARE. The opinion is one person is no more or less
> > valid than the opinion of seven billion.
>
> Some opinions are more valid if they are more informed.
I just have to say this. No. An opinion is an opinion. It is no better,
worse, or more valid than someone else's opinion, regardless of how informed
a person might be. However, we can argue this round and round, because what
you say above is just that, an opinion that other opinions are more valid if
they are more informed. That's elitist thinking, and I am pretty sure many
will agree with me. A more informed opinion does NOT make it a more valid
one.
> > I have a shirt that I think is more
> > purple than blue. a dozen people have commented on what a pretty shade
of
> > blue that shirt is. Do I think of it as a blue shirt just because they
don't
> > see the purple in it? No, I think of it as a purple shirt. I don't like
> > Beethoven, Picasso, or Tolkein. Millions of people worldwide regard them
as
> > epitomes of their art. Does that mean I should also regard them as such?
No,
> > because Beethoven puts me to sleep, Picasso paintings do nothing for me,
and
> > Tolkein's prose is just about the dryest dreck I've ever tried to force
> > myself to read.
>
> Which really doesn't put you into a good light.
Because he doesn't like any of the above? How so? Lots of people don't. He's
not the only one who doesn't like Tolkien. Again, that is only your opinion
that this doesn't put him in a good light.
> > You can call these "straw man" arguments all you want and misread or
> > deliberately misinterpret what I'm saying, but the simple truth is that
I've
> > blown a giant gaping hole in your original point, and you can do
absolutely
> > nothing to negate that.
>
> Only in your little mind. You don't have a point to argue. You confuse
> personal taste and opinion. Misunderstand the nature of subjectivity
> and make some interesting claims about objectivity.
Personal taste, Travers, DOES define one's opinion. For example. The premise
of Pokemon is one I find to be abhorrent and boring. Therefore, it is not to
my taste, therefore my opinion is that it's crap. Follow?
> >> And you're perfectly right in thinking your not a
> >>soft-minded fuzzy thinker, and I'm perfectly right in thinking you're an
> >>idiot. It's a subjective opinion so you can't argue against it. You
> >>said so yourself.
No. He said that all opinions were subjective and valid. This does not mean
that they can't be argued. Just that everyone's opinion has weight. Even if
we would sometimes rather it didn't.
Alan
AstroNerdBoy
> "The Eternal Lost Lurker" <os...@raspberry.hv> wrote in message
> >
> It
> > has to actually make sense when spoken in English, and it has to match the
> > lip-flap (the mouth movements of the characters on screen). Writing timed
> > dub scripts is not an easy task, and it's quite common for a lot of things
> > to be changed because of lip-flap, clarity of meaning, and cultural
> > exchanges (most dubs are written with the logic in mind that anyone
> watching
> > a dub doesn't grok Japanese culture).
>
> Actually it dosen't really have to match the lip flaps since the original
> Japanese dosen't match the lip flaps. Since Japanese do the animation
> first and then do the dialouge. The only exception to this that I know
> of is Akira. Another problem is that a lot of translator try to make the
> shows funnier when they write the dub scripts instead of just translate
> them.
TM!R episode 2. When Ayeka's ship appears, the dub has Tenchi's
father say something like, "Honey, is that you?" In Japanese, he
basically said, "What the...?!!" And TM!R is a series where what the
characters say needs to be accurate due to how complex the story and
characters are. :-/ Not that the subtitles were much better, but to
Pioneer's credit, they did fix the most horrid errors. Oh well,
that's why I'm learning Japanese and not have to rely on the Pioneer
(or other company) domestication in the subtitles.
AstroNerdBoy
> "Touma" <to...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >
> > Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
> > and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
>
> By the way you have to watch Nuku Nuku subtitled.
Hayashibara Megumi demands all of her titles be watched in Japanese --
domesticated subtitles or not. :-D
AstroNerdBoy
> In article <kYXCb.193927$Ec1.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> >
> >>
> >> Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
> >> and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
> >
> >Yes it does, which is why I don't like dubs.
> >By the way you have to watch Nuku Nuku subtitled.
> >
>
>
> For me, a lot of the time the English voice acting is, well, inferior to the
> Japanese. Megumi Hayashibara is Lina Inverse; the American actors, uhh
> are not, for instance.
>
> On the other hand, I'm not sure how much that this is me having heard the
> original first. I like the Tenchi Muyo dub about as well as the Japanese
> for instance, but I saw the dubs first.
>
I think a lot of it depends on how you saw it first. If you see the
Japanese version first, it is harder to accept English VA's,
especially if they have a different take on the character(s). Since
I'm a TM!R otaku fanboy goober geek (etc.), I've conversed with many
fans. Those who initially saw the series on CN or got the DVD and
watched the dub LOVE the dub. For them, Petrea Burchard IS Ryoko and
no one else can be her. For those who saw the Japanese version first
(like me), Orikasa Ai IS Ryoko and no one else can be her. :-P
As a side note, I will say that while I normally watch TM!R, TU and
all other things Tenchi in Japanese, I did watch the movie "Tenchi
Forever" in English and found it to be pretty good. I didn't think
they were that good in the original TM!R though but that's just my
opinion.
paranormalized
<os...@raspberry.hv> wrote:
>
>"Travers Naran" <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in message
>news:8c7Db.10586$OJ.7239@edtnps84...
>> No such thing as factually better acting?
>
>Exactly.
>
>> There are generally agreed upon opinions on which movies are better than
>> others and which actors are better than others. These opinions tend to
>> cluster. It's not just a "personal" thing.
>
>Being popular opinion doesn't make something fact. Popular opinion used to
>be the world was flat. This has been disproven. It is not fact. Popular
>opinion used to be that the sun revolved around the Earth. This has been
>disproven. It is not fact.
>
>Popular opinion does not equal fact. Popular opinion equals opinion. Opinion
>is subjective. Fact is objective.
>
OTOH, there *does* tend to be some agreement as to what works and what
doesn't in art. If there wasn't, then *all* education in the Liberal
Arts would be *truly* non-productive. But I think I'm better off for
my English classes and such stuff, oddly enough... and I'm more of a
math/science geek, most times...
Problems with rules and art emerge when people get 'following the
rules' confused with 'using the rules,' and miss the point. You seek
to produce good work, which is hard, if not *impossible* to define,
but such work is usually recognizable, when you finally produce it...
teaching makes the goals of art easier-to-achieve by illustrating
rules of compostion, and so forth.
I recommend Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance to examine this
worldview, the concept of an undefinable, but recognizable, Quality.
The book actually has a strong narrative flow, and *works* as
storytelling, even as he's examining the origins of Western
Philosophy...IOW, it's as much good story as anything else, though it
*is* an odd fusion of story and philosophy...
*snip snip*
>> Lots of people think The Godfather is a tremendous movie. Lots of
>> people think Citizen Kane is the best American movie ever. Sure, some
>> people disagree, but there is clustering of opinion thus a basis for
>> stating something as being not just a personal opinion.
>
>You're right. Clustered opinions cease to become personal opinions. They
>become group opinions. Group opinions are no more and no less valid than
>personal opinions, and they STILL do not equate to FACT.
>
But what about the role of trusted pre-readers in writing? They point
out 'weak points,' and when a writer works on these issues, she
produces 'better art,' both in the her own eyes, and in the eyes of
her intended audience. The art achieves it's goal better, does that
not make it *objectively* better? At least by one standard- the
reaching of a goal?
How do *you* define 'better' in art? If you don't have some
recognition of some form of 'better' and 'worse', as subjective as it
may be, you're close to useless in giving constructive criticism...
and frankly, removing constructive criticism is the Empiricist Sin.
Getting tied up in knots arguing for the subjectivity of art often
reduces your ability to constructively criticize. Mostly because your
energies get spent on the wrong cause. It's more important to discuss
specific works than broad generalities like this. While philosophy
can be fun, it's not *usually* the best way to discuss art...
So, ignore the subject/object debate. Discuss what makes art work and
fail for you. Getting back on-topic, frankly, I prefer subs because I
have pretty much no problem with screen distraction, and haven't felt
the impact of voice cliches too much, yet. Familiarity works both
ways, it exposes flaws while enriching deepness. If left to myself, I
more easily hear flaws in English performances than Japanese ones,
just as I can more easily hear a *really good* performance...
And maybe subs also let me extrapolate even *more* extra meaning onto
the language and words, whole meanings where there are none, in
addition to the usual self-added nuances. The whole weird "Unsung
Collaborator" phenomenon the novelest Bujold once described, writ
larger... If you want to see fans making a series better in their
minds than what gets put on screen, I point at the Weiss Cruz fangals.
A weird way to look at art, but one I find charming, at times...
In the end, I'm not totally sure what happens in my head when I read
books or watch subbed anime. Ask me again in 20 years, when my tastes
have changed somewhat...
Heh. Anyone want to bring up Yoko Kanno's penchant for imaginary
languages? She obviously thinks purposeful unfamiliarity has
strengths, but what exactly are they? Any guesses?
AstroNerdBoy
> Klyfix wrote:
> > For me, a lot of the time the English voice acting is, well, inferior
> > to the Japanese. Megumi Hayashibara is Lina Inverse; the American
> > actors, uhh
> > are not, for instance.
> >
> > On the other hand, I'm not sure how much that this is me having heard
> > the original first. I like the Tenchi Muyo dub about as well as the
> > Japanese for instance, but I saw the dubs first.
>
> first, for instance (and because I associate Treize's Japanese voice too
> much with Il Palazzo from Excel Saga ^_^ )
>
> Of course, there are situations where the English dub just is atrocious,
> like Love Hina for example...
>
> For me, there are a few reasons why I will always watch the Japanese dub
> when available:
<snipped for space>
> 3. Certain nuances that are present in Japanese aren't present in English.
> The type of personal pronouns someone uses (boku, ore, watashi, watakushi,
> atashi, etc.), the way they address people
> (-san, -sama-, -sempai, -kun, -chan, etc.), the kinds of emphatic particles
> they use, and lots of other thing that neither the subs nor dubs can
> accurately convey tell you a lot about someone's character; only the the
> Japanese language track can convey those. Also, I'm learning Japanese, and
> every bit of practice helps. ^_^
Yeah, I'm in a Japanese class now and learning.
Having the honorifics in the subs goes a long way in helping determine
how characters relate to each other and says something about the
character's 'character' (quality). Take TM!R (here ANB goes again...
:-P ). Ryoko almost uses no honorifics and symbolizes the rude
gaijin. Ayeka using "Tenchi-sama" shows the proper Japanese lady.
First, she addresses Tenchi as "Tenchi-sama" to reflect his being 2nd
in line to the throne of Jurai as well as the defacto head of the
house she lives in (since his father is rarely home). Also, one could
argue that she calls him "Tenchi-sama" because she has feelings for
him. All of the characters address Tenchi differently and it is done
on purpose as it says a lot about that character.
<snipped for space>
> Dubs have their uses, and if you like them, go ahead and watch them. If you
> like subs, go ahead and watch those. To each his/her own.
And if you are like me, learn Japanese and buy R2 DVD's. :-P
Travers Naran
> On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:34:06 GMT, "The Eternal Lost Lurker"
> <os...@raspberry.hv> wrote:
>
>
> Getting tied up in knots arguing for the subjectivity of art often
> reduces your ability to constructively criticize. Mostly because your
> energies get spent on the wrong cause. It's more important to discuss
> specific works than broad generalities like this. While philosophy
> can be fun, it's not *usually* the best way to discuss art...
Thank you. :-)
> So, ignore the subject/object debate. Discuss what makes art work and
> fail for you. Getting back on-topic, frankly, I prefer subs because I
> have pretty much no problem with screen distraction, and haven't felt
> the impact of voice cliches too much, yet. Familiarity works both
> ways, it exposes flaws while enriching deepness. If left to myself, I
> more easily hear flaws in English performances than Japanese ones,
> just as I can more easily hear a *really good* performance...
To me, the problem is that I watch a lot of American animation as well
as anime. I love the voice work in animation, maybe because I had a
misadventure doing sound programming for video games. I love the
process of acting just with your voice. I love old radio dramas, etc.
for the same reason. I know American voice artists can do a good job
conveying emotion and subtlety with their voice. I've heard a LOT of
good voice work in Japanese anime that do the same thing. Osaka from
Azumanga Daioh does this so well: she plays Osaka as a childish
character, but who strives to be taken seriously. There's a nice nuance
in her voice work there.
Most dubs I've heard lose all emotion and sound flat. It annoys me
because I've heard other anime that do it very well. FLCL and Cowboy
Bebop come to mind. Hayashibara's approach to Faye Valentine and Wendy
Lee's are interesting to compare. Megumi chose to take a tom-boyish
girl's voice and tried to make it sound sexy, while Lee choice a sexy
girl's voice and tried to make it sound tom-boyish. They both reach the
same destination: a girl who was neither trying to pretend she was both.
But the problem is it sounds like the English voice actors aren't
putting any effort into it. And listening to their commentary and
interviews, it makes me think they don't take their anime work
seriously. I don't think they would last 5 minutes with Andrea Romano.
Also, I keep pointing out the biggest example of the English voices
being better than the Japanese ones: Love Hina. I thought the English
voices for Koala Su and Kitsune voices were attrocious and Shinobu's
English voice was *too* helium voiced (I think I lost some high freq.
hearing there). But Keitaro's English voice and Naru's English voice
was so much BETTER than the Japanese ones. They sounded right.
Keitaro's voice had more of that cracked geek voice than the Japanese
guy (who sounds too manly). Naru's Japanese voice was painfully
high-pitched helium voice, while the English actress put the appropriate
gruffness & girlishness into it.
It's difficult for me to listen to the original Japanese soundtrack
anymore, but I will do it for Mitsune Otohime, but then again, I just
find both voices for Otohime (English & Japanese) just so damned sexy! :-)
> And maybe subs also let me extrapolate even *more* extra meaning onto
> the language and words, whole meanings where there are none, in
> addition to the usual self-added nuances. The whole weird "Unsung
> Collaborator" phenomenon the novelest Bujold once described, writ
> larger... If you want to see fans making a series better in their
> minds than what gets put on screen, I point at the Weiss Cruz fangals.
> A weird way to look at art, but one I find charming, at times...
That is an interesting phenomenon. A friend once told me of having a
writer come to his English class in University. Someone asked the
writer a fairly deep question about the meaning in one of her stories,
and she said "Well, I didn't really mean anything by it." I've often
felt that's what happened to Evangelion. In a sense, the last few
episodes was Anno having a brain dump of half-baked ideas, and some fans
"fully" baked it and saw deep, profound meaning.
> In the end, I'm not totally sure what happens in my head when I read
> books or watch subbed anime. Ask me again in 20 years, when my tastes
> have changed somewhat...
No one knows for sure. It's an interesting question of cognition.
> Heh. Anyone want to bring up Yoko Kanno's penchant for imaginary
> languages? She obviously thinks purposeful unfamiliarity has
> strengths, but what exactly are they? Any guesses?
I can't think of any examples of it. All of her music I've ever heard
had English or Japanese lyrics. Can you provide an example?
AstroNerdBoy
> Unforgiven wrote:
>
> > 3. Certain nuances that are present in Japanese aren't present in English.
> > The type of personal pronouns someone uses (boku, ore, watashi, watakushi,
> > atashi, etc.), the way they address people
> > (-san, -sama-, -sempai, -kun, -chan, etc.), the kinds of emphatic particles
> > they use, and lots of other thing that neither the subs nor dubs can
> > accurately convey tell you a lot about someone's character; only the the
> > Japanese language track can convey those. Also, I'm learning Japanese, and
> > every bit of practice helps. ^_^
>
> A good translator/adaptor can overcome almost all of this. To be a good
> translator, you have to be a good writer too. You must know how to
> convey those meaning in English without resorting to awkward
> translations (e.g., "Upperclassman Kuno"). If you read the translations
> of many major Japanese authors, the translators rarely have to resort to
> using Japanese directly.
>
Well, I would rather they say, "Kuno-sempai" than force a translation.
I mean if the Japanese can actually say, "Mr. ANB" in the Japanese
rather than ANB-san, then for the subs, we can leave the honorifics
in. But that's just my opinion and I know that can evoke a negative
respose. *runs for cover* :-D
>
> An example of dub done RIGHT: FLCL. You're missing very little from the
> Japanese. They even managed to make the puns work in English.
Ah, excellent point. And *shock* they had some Japanese honorifics in
the dub! NO WAY! And in the sub, they had all of them (as best as I
can tell). SynchPoint did a fantastic job and the popularity of FLCL
on CN shows that American companies don't have to do a domestication
job to sell a title in America. Same thing for "Ai Yori Aoshi".
Travers Naran
> Travers Naran <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in message news:<OE%Cb.3708$OJ.98@edtnps84>...
>
>>A good translator/adaptor can overcome almost all of this. To be a good
>>translator, you have to be a good writer too. You must know how to
>>convey those meaning in English without resorting to awkward
>>translations (e.g., "Upperclassman Kuno"). If you read the translations
>>of many major Japanese authors, the translators rarely have to resort to
>>using Japanese directly.
>
> Well, I would rather they say, "Kuno-sempai" than force a translation.
> I mean if the Japanese can actually say, "Mr. ANB" in the Japanese
> rather than ANB-san, then for the subs, we can leave the honorifics
> in. But that's just my opinion and I know that can evoke a negative
> respose. *runs for cover* :-D
Personally, I like leaving the honorifics untranslated, but I do
recognize it's a bit of a cop out for a translator to do that. But it's
been established I'm a stupid-sub-loving-nazi-freak-weirdo. ;-)
But I have noticed the concept of -san has leaked into mainstream
English so people aren't so uncomfortable or puzzled by it anymore.
Probably the 80's and the "Japanification" of America. ;-)
>>An example of dub done RIGHT: FLCL. You're missing very little from the
>>Japanese. They even managed to make the puns work in English.
>
> Ah, excellent point. And *shock* they had some Japanese honorifics in
> the dub! NO WAY!
But very little, and you barely notice it.
> And in the sub, they had all of them (as best as I
> can tell). SynchPoint did a fantastic job and the popularity of FLCL
> on CN shows that American companies don't have to do a domestication
> job to sell a title in America. Same thing for "Ai Yori Aoshi".
Just to clarify one point: there is *some* loss in the English dub for
FLCL, but considering they're obscure references to Japanese pop
culture, I think they made the right call and replaced them with
appropriate American ones. I especially loved their substituting of
Crystal Pepsi for that one pop. And, JUST as important, the subtitles
preserve the cultural references. You get the best of both worlds!
AstroNerdBoy
> Hey, Touma!
>
> > Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
> > and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
>
> bit. From what I've seen, dialogue is more metaphorical and poetic with
> Oriental works. I recall an interview with a guy who runs a US based
> Hong Kong film magazine, and he was explaining that something translated
> in the US as "Let's give 'em hell!" could be in Chinese, "Let us show
> them our influence."
>
> IIRC, the rerelease of Lupin The 3rd has the jokes rewritten to make
> them more current. (Haven't seen either of them except for the video
>
Yes, and even non-otaku fans complained about that, so much so that
supposedly Pioneer will stop that practice after episode 24. You
can't have a 70's anime show with Lupin playing "Pong" talk about some
year-2000 thing. It makes you cringe. I do like the VA's though,
especially Lupin's. He has the character down right (IMO).
AstroNerdBoy
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:40:29 GMT, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> *snip snip*
> > Why the hell is the fricking 90s Sub Nazi Clique
> >popping out of nowhere?
> >
> Hmmm, isn't it a bit early to invoke Godel's Law? Or are you *trying*
> to end the tread, Blade?
>
>
> Jonathan Fisher
Blade-san does not suffer those he considers to be baka (myself in
that list) well, Jonathan-san. :-D
The Eternal Lost Lurker
> > *snrk* Right. Fanboys. Despite the fact that I watch far more dubbed
anime
> > than I do subbed anime, I'm a fanboy.
>
> Well, if the shoe fits...
Conveniently ignoring the followup post in which I corrected my own typo...
> No, as in someone so enthused and self-absorbed with their own personal
> love that they are oblivious to other points of view. At least I try to
> explain my point of view.
Except I don't HAVE a point of view one way or the other on this issue.
Which I believe I have said. REPEATEDLY. Which you have ignored. REPEATEDLY.
> But an opinion is based on criteria, and I'm arguing there is enough
> common criteria in a subjective domain to compare things with.
You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. You don't even know what you're
arguing ABOUT.
> The criteria for determining truth for physical phenomenon is different
> than the criteria for determining the quality of art. The physical
> world is so different from the subjective realm you are talking about
> that it's really pointless to compare them.
The point I'm trying to make is the same regardless. If you weren't a
mentally inferior orangutan, you'd grasp this.
> > and why anyone with half a brain can tell you
> > that fact and opinion are entirely different animals.
>
> Fact and opinion are different animals, but opinion can be argued and
> compared still.
Yes, but opinion cannot be propped up against a wall and declared to be
fact.
> > The same applies to your argument of "factually better" seiyuu. It's a
> > subjective argument, and thus is a matter of opinion.
>
> I didn't say "factually better". I just said better which was an
> informed opinion using criteria most people respect (ability to convey
> emotion, create unique characters, etc.) Where we have a massive
> disagreement is where I've always heard good qualities in Japanese voice
> actors, you claim there aren't.
1. If you did indeed not say "factually better" to begin with, then I
apologise. I admit to not knowing exactly who made that comment in the first
place.
2. You are, once again, misreading, misinterpreting, and attributing things
to me which I never said. I have never claimed that Japanese voice actors
don't have good qualities. I have, in fact, REPEATEDLY stated I watch both
subs and dubs. Read some of my other posts in this thread.
> > I'm not saying any such thing. Learn to read. I'm saying that opinion is
> > subjective and fact is objective. I'm saying nothing more and nothing
less.
>
> Which isn't really saying anything.
It's saying more than you've managed to say, and it's saying it without
being self-contradicting, self-depreciating, or just plain wrong.
> But why are you slamming contrary opinions as though you have some
> special perch to see the truth from?
Ummm...I'm doing no such thing. I'm just illustrating the difference between
fact and opinion, and pointing out why it's wrong to say Japanese voice
actors are "factually better" than English ones. Again, that is the
statement this entire argument has been against. Haven't you been paying
attention?
> > You really need to learn a little vocabulary before you start trying to
> > argue with your betters, Travers. And reading comprehension. It'd really
> > help your debating skills.
>
> Betters?? What I'm reading from you tells me you've never taking a
> critical thinking course in your life. You don't really understand the
> difference between taste and opinion. The nature of subjectivity and
> objectivity, which isn't as clear cut as you think when you get deeper
> into philosophy.
I don't need to take a course to be able to tell the difference between
fact, opinion, taste, subjectivity, and objectivity. These things are common
sense, or should be. Perhaps you've taken too MANY courses--or perhaps, more
likely, you are some pathetic little poseur, attempting to pretend you are
more intelligent and sophisticated than you actually are.
Whatever. I'm getting sick unto death of you.
> > Exactly. BECAUSE THEY ARE. The opinion is one person is no more or less
> > valid than the opinion of seven billion.
>
> Some opinions are more valid if they are more informed.
No opinion is any more valid than any other opinion. PERIOD. END OF FILE.
> > because Beethoven puts me to sleep, Picasso paintings do nothing for me,
and
> > Tolkein's prose is just about the dryest dreck I've ever tried to force
> > myself to read.
>
> Which really doesn't put you into a good light.
How is that so? Because I'm not..."refined"? "Dignified"? "Sophisticated"?
FUCK THAT.
I have my own tastes--my own OPINIONS!--when it comes to art, music, and
literature. I like some things, I don't like others. Guess what? That makes
me the same as you, Blade, Ethan, and EVERYBODY ELSE ON THIS ENTIRE GODDAMN
PLANET.
Gee, imagine that.
> Only in your little mind. You don't have a point to argue. You confuse
> personal taste and opinion.
Uhh...personal taste *is* opinion, fucktard.
> > I never said they aren't. I just said it's not a matter of FACT that
they're
> > superior. Which it isn't.
>
> And I'm trying to argue my point by showing the criteria I judge
> performance by and showing how they compare.
You can argue your point all you want, it doesn't change the fact that what
you're arguing is a personal opinion.
> > Except that I *DO*, and have proven that YOU do NOT.
>
> No, you've demonstrated you don't understand the nature of "subjective".
Actually, I think I've more than sufficiently proven that I have a far
greater grasp on subjectivity--and reality--than you do.
> >>But then what's your point? That you can go around saying "Japanese
> >>voice actors all suck!" and no one can say otherwise? You're de facto
> >>claiming YOU are the objective ones.
> >
> > Umm...no. You seem, first of all, to be under the mistaken impression
that I
> > expressed an opinion one way or the other. I didn't.
>
> You did express that opinion.
Where? Quote me. Find a post where I said PRECISELY THOSE WORDS.
Because guess what? I NEVER DID.
I have never, once, ANYWHERE, said "Japanese voice actors all suck!"
I haven't even said SOME Japanese voice actors suck.
I haven't even said any one SINGLE Japanese voice actor sucked.
Now, not only are you presenting a bullshit argument based on fractured
logic and shoddy reasoning, you're outright lying and accusing me of saying
things I never said.
You are rising very rapidly on my personal shit list.
> There are opinions and then there are opinions. They're not all created
> equal. You also confuse an informed opinion with expressing something
> as fact.
All opinions are equal. Period. End of file.
> > Stating your opinion as fact is a good way to get smacked down, boyo.
>
> And confusing opinion and fact is a good way to get smacked back.
Then I have nothing to worry about, do I?
> > No, but declaring something as factually true when it isn't tends to
> > discredit your arguments.
>
> I didn't declare it as "factually" true. Maybe it's your reading
> comprehension that's in question?
Or perhaps it's simply my memory for who set off this ream of bullshit.
There's so many fucking imbeciles on this newsgroup it's hard to keep track
sometimes.
Still, it's one memory error to your, what? Ten? Twelve? Twenty? reading
comprehension and logic errors.
The Eternal Lost Lurker
"Travers Naran" <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in message
news:NJaDb.11065$OJ.9938@edtnps84...
>
> There is such a thing as factually better acting as there is such a
> thing as factually better drawing. There is a common set of criteria
> most people agree defines good acting.
"Most people agree" would qualify that as an OPINION. Which means it's not
factual at all.
> > Yes it is. An opinion that a group shares is an opinion nonetheless.
>
> Yes, and opinions are not just "whims".
No, they're opinions. Which means that they only matter to those who hold
similar opinions.
> > You can't defend an opinion. That's the whole point, which anybody with
> > at least a tenuous grasp on reality could have informed you.
>
> You can defend an opinion. You can argue for or against it.
But in the end, it is still an opinion, and therefore it only matters to you
and those who think like you. (And those who are too stupid to formulate an
opinion of their own.)
> No, it isn't. People argue about art all the time. Basically anyone
> who expresses an opinion contrary to yours should just "shut up" because
> it can't be proven or disproven and it hurts your feelings. That's the
> only reason I can think of why these debates always ends up in personal
> attacks on the person's intelligence and capabilities.
It's called "the circular argument". Which this has degenerated into.
> > And now you're backtracking into drooling imbecility again. Sigh.
>
> No, I'm not. I'm pointing out there are commonly shared criteria for
> judging art, and a basis for arguing the relative merits of various
> opinions.
In other words, you're backtracking into drooling imbecility.
The Eternal Lost Lurker
"AstroNerdBoy" <sp...@astronerdboy.com> wrote in message
news:7e562e8e.0312...@posting.google.com...
>
> that's why I'm learning Japanese and not have to rely on the Pioneer
> (or other company) domestication in the subtitles.
Agreement there. I'm at the point, now, where even with the slow pace and
half-assed attempts I've made at teaching myself Japanese over the past
several years, I can grok about half what's said in your average anime ep
without the benefit of the subtitles. I'm going to start making a greater
effort to get back to learning at the speed I was six years ago starting in
2k4, and hopefully by next Christmas, I won't need subtitles anymore at all.
The Eternal Lost Lurker
> Japanese version first, it is harder to accept English VA's,
> especially if they have a different take on the character(s). Since
> I'm a TM!R otaku fanboy goober geek (etc.), I've conversed with many
> fans. Those who initially saw the series on CN or got the DVD and
> watched the dub LOVE the dub. For them, Petrea Burchard IS Ryoko and
> no one else can be her. For those who saw the Japanese version first
> (like me), Orikasa Ai IS Ryoko and no one else can be her. :-P
Oddly enough, I prefer the dub Ryouko and Mihoshi, but prefer the Japanese
version of just about everyone else. I absolutely abhor dub Aeka, because
she sounds like she's trying to talk and chew her own pussy at the same
time.
The Eternal Lost Lurker
"paranormalized" <cnendabe...@rndeguyvdax.arg> wrote in message
> But what about the role of trusted pre-readers in writing? They point
> out 'weak points,' and when a writer works on these issues, she
> produces 'better art,' both in the her own eyes, and in the eyes of
> her intended audience. The art achieves it's goal better, does that
> not make it *objectively* better? At least by one standard- the
> reaching of a goal?
Ah, but pre-readers exist for two purposes: to point out technical errors,
and to provide opinions. An author relies on pre-readers because he values
the opinions of those he selects to pre-read for him. If a writer finds the
advice--the opinion--of a pre-reader to be counterproductive or useless to
him, he ignores it.
Chibi-Light
>Except for all those times, in those very occasional good Japanese dubs,
>where I -can- tell the voices apart. Or rather, I can tell they're not
>just desperately imitating Megumi Hayashibara.
Oh look, the little Anti-Sub Nazis are out again in force. They've
invoed the Hayashibara defense. These are people who SOMEHOW think
that Faye Valentine, Rei Ayanami, Lina Inverse, and Tira Misu all
sound the same. They obviously aren't listening very closely or think
that in order to "act" you have to be like Gregg Berger and sound like
Grimlock or Cornfed Pig. Oh sure, there are definitely stereotype
voices, the deep sultry voice, the high pitched squeeky voice, but
then again, these, much like hair color are used to represent the
personality or role of the character, something some people like to
call archetypes.
They can't possibly come to the required comprehension that due to
cultural differences the idea of Japanese voice acting is to actually
act, not to make comical sounding characters because the majority of
the characters are not talking ducks, cats, cows, geese, poop, etc.
Instead they're generally human and sound human, even if falsetto.
They also tend to believe that this falsetto is just for anime. Well,
they've apparently never watched any modern Japanese films or
documentaries cause you'll hear those high pitched voices there as
well. But that comes from that whole lolita complex going on there...
CL
Vince Lamb
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:40:29 GMT, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> *snip snip*
> > Why the hell is the fricking 90s Sub Nazi Clique
> >popping out of nowhere?
> >
> Hmmm, isn't it a bit early to invoke Godel's Law?
What, "that within any given branch of mathematics, there would always
be some propositions that couldn't be proven either true or false
using the rules and axioms ... of that mathematical branch itself"?
http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html
I don't think that's what you have in mind. ^_^
Instead, you mean Godwin's Law: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer,
the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches
one."
http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/faqs/godwin.html
> Or are you *trying* to end the tread, Blade?
As far as I can tell Blade is ignoring you. However, something
worthwhile is coming out of it, such as getting to see ELL play the
role of voice of reason (but not reasonableness) for once.
> Jonathan Fisher
> ----------
> paranormalized man, subnormalized otaku
Vince "Professor Plum" Lamb
"Washuu has crabs!"
Blade
news:586abfa1.03121...@posting.google.com:
> paranormalized <cnendabe...@rndeguyvdax.arg> wrote in message
> news:<tibqtv04gtop5rt5a...@4ax.com>...
<snip>
>> Or are you *trying* to end the tread, Blade?
>
> As far as I can tell Blade is ignoring you.
Huh? Has he been in my killfile before or something? In any case, I
replied to his post before you did.
Klyfix
sp...@astronerdboy.com (AstroNerdBoy) writes:
>
>I think a lot of it depends on how you saw it first. If you see the
>Japanese version first, it is harder to accept English VA's,
>especially if they have a different take on the character(s). Since
>I'm a TM!R otaku fanboy goober geek (etc.), I've conversed with many
>fans. Those who initially saw the series on CN or got the DVD and
>watched the dub LOVE the dub. For them, Petrea Burchard IS Ryoko and
>no one else can be her. For those who saw the Japanese version first
>(like me), Orikasa Ai IS Ryoko and no one else can be her. :-P
>
There are some difference really in the two actresses' portrayal. Orikasa Ai's
Ryoko is more sultry and sexy and unconcerned with proper behavior. Petra
Berchard's Ryoko is working class, earthy, a bit rough around the edges. I
think both takes are valid.
I gather that some folk don't like K. T. Vogt's Washu; I think she's great
but will admit that Yuko Kobayashi is much more cute asking to be called
"Washu-chan" than Vogt is asking to be called "Little Washu." :)
Now, the one series where I saw both versions at about the same time was
and liked both equally was "Hellsing." But yeah, usually if I get a hold of
a DVD I watch the Japanese version. I usually (unless it's a rental and I
don't have much time) give the English version a chance. "Evangelion"
isn't too bad in the dub but I prefer the Japanese. I found the English
voices for Miyu in both the OVA and TV series of "Vampire Princess
Miyu" to, well, just lack something as compared to the Japanese.
V. S. Greene : kly...@aol.com : Boston, near Arkham...
Eckzylon: http://m1.aol.com/klyfix/eckzylon.html
"Death and Poverty love me so much they brought
friends!"-Vash in "Trigun"
Ethan Hammond
>
> >By the way you have to watch Nuku Nuku subtitled.
>
> Because of the dialogue, or because of the difference in the voice acting?
Because Ethan says thou shalt not!!!!
> For me, a lot of the time the English voice acting is, well, inferior to
the
> Japanese. Megumi Hayashibara is Lina Inverse; the American actors, uhh
> are not, for instance.
Nuku Nuku is Megumi as well.
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Ethan Hammond
>
> > Actually it dosen't really have to match the lip flaps since the
original
> > Japanese dosen't match the lip flaps.
>
Most people can't even tell. They just think they can.
> > Another problem is that a lot of translator try to make the
> > shows funnier when they write the dub scripts instead of just translate
> > them.
>
> Ugh, punch-up writing. One of the biggest problems with the DBZ dub...
I am in concurrence.
Ethan Hammond
>
> >By the way you have to watch Nuku Nuku subtitled.
>
> How about a compromise?
Ahhh the word that I most fear.
> I will watch the dubbed version, so that I can enjoy the beauty of the
> Nuku Nuku without the distraction of those silly letters at the bottom
> of the screen.
> After I have absorbed a sufficient dose of cat-girl cuteness I will
> watch the DVD again, this time with subtitles.
There is a lot more cat girl cuteness when she is speaking Japanese,
but I will allow this.
> I will try to learn to read for content.
Hurray!!!!
Ethan Hammond
>
> > > Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
> > > and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
> >
> > Yes it does, which is why I don't like dubs.
> > By the way you have to watch Nuku Nuku subtitled.
>
> Hayashibara Megumi demands all of her titles be watched in Japanese --
> domesticated subtitles or not. :-D
Its true, or else Ghidora will run will on all blasting laser beams of
d00m from his three heads in TANDEM!!!!
AstroNerdBoy
> AstroNerdBoy wrote:
>
> > Travers Naran <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in message news:<OE%Cb.3708$OJ.98@edtnps84>...
> >
> >>A good translator/adaptor can overcome almost all of this. To be a good
> >>translator, you have to be a good writer too. You must know how to
> >>convey those meaning in English without resorting to awkward
> >>translations (e.g., "Upperclassman Kuno"). If you read the translations
> >>of many major Japanese authors, the translators rarely have to resort to
> >>using Japanese directly.
> >
> > Well, I would rather they say, "Kuno-sempai" than force a translation.
> > I mean if the Japanese can actually say, "Mr. ANB" in the Japanese
> > rather than ANB-san, then for the subs, we can leave the honorifics
> > in. But that's just my opinion and I know that can evoke a negative
> > respose. *runs for cover* :-D
>
> Personally, I like leaving the honorifics untranslated, but I do
> recognize it's a bit of a cop out for a translator to do that. But it's
> been established I'm a stupid-sub-loving-nazi-freak-weirdo. ;-)
>
I don't buy the cop out theory, but that's just me. I mean Japanese
names can be translated. We used to translate Indian names so why not
translate Japanese names. ;-P
> But I have noticed the concept of -san has leaked into mainstream
> English so people aren't so uncomfortable or puzzled by it anymore.
> Probably the 80's and the "Japanification" of America. ;-)
>
I think "The Karate Kid" introduced me to the "-san" honorific. On a
side note, "-san" showed up in the subtitles of "The Last Samurai".
In (most) anime, this must either be ignored or translated as Mr.,
Mrs., Miss, buddy, pal, my love, darling, and big (based on the anime
I've seen to date). :-D
> >>An example of dub done RIGHT: FLCL. You're missing very little from the
> >>Japanese. They even managed to make the puns work in English.
> >
> > Ah, excellent point. And *shock* they had some Japanese honorifics in
> > the dub! NO WAY!
>
> But very little, and you barely notice it.
>
Granted it isn't as big as the subtitled side, but "-san" and "-kun"
show up frequently (when used by a character). Naota is called
"Ta-kun" (though the subtitles merge this as a single word) in the
dub. Haruko is often called "Haruko-san" and I think she was even
called "Haruko-chan" at one point (though I'd have to watch the DVD
again). I did notice that the military guy's female aid isn't called
by the "-kun" honorific in the dub (whatever her name was). And
"-sama" wasn't used in the dub. However, they all were used in the
sub which I very much appreciated.
> > And in the sub, they had all of them (as best as I
> > can tell). SynchPoint did a fantastic job and the popularity of FLCL
> > on CN shows that American companies don't have to do a domestication
> > job to sell a title in America. Same thing for "Ai Yori Aoshi".
>
> Just to clarify one point: there is *some* loss in the English dub for
> FLCL, but considering they're obscure references to Japanese pop
> culture, I think they made the right call and replaced them with
> appropriate American ones. I especially loved their substituting of
> Crystal Pepsi for that one pop. And, JUST as important, the subtitles
> preserve the cultural references. You get the best of both worlds!
Exactly. SynchPoint understood there are two types of anime fans --
the ones who prefer dubs and the "fanboys" who prefer subs.
FUNimation does something similar. They have more domestication in
their English dubs (at least on the titles I own) but the subtitles
are pretty tight and included honorifics when used. If "GXP" is done
this way, it will move up on my list of anime purchases list. :-D
AstroNerdBoy
> >
Dude, you are in "battles" with both Blade *and* ELL? YIKES! You
must be a glutton for abuse. *shakes head and laughs* Why do I keep
hearing the Monty Python line, "Run away! Run away! Keep running!"
:-P
AstroNerdBoy
> > Apparently there are often differences between subtitles and dubs, and
> > there are many good reasons for this. I may have to consider watching
> > the subs, at least in some cases, in addition to the dubs.
>
> Yes, you should. Not only for this reason, but because while it's okay to
> prefer dubs, it's equally important to at least watch the subtitled version
> of a show once, just so you can appreciate the difference between the
> original and dub voices, plus whatever other changes are made.
>
> In addition, there are some shows which are so horribly butchered in the
> dubbing and (in most of such cases) editing process, the only way you'll
> ever experience the show as it should be is by watching the subbed version.
> Examples include Cardcaptor Sakura, Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon, Rockman.EXE,
> Yugioh, and Love Hina.
>
> Conversely, there are SOME shows which are better experienced dubbed for a
> number of reasons--usually because the show itself involves so many elements
> which are distinctly non-Japanese that conveying it in English makes it make
> more SENSE than the Japanese version, or else just plain feels more
> appropriate. Examples of THIS include (note, this is purely my opinion):
> Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, Outlaw Star, The Big O.
>
Man, this is so scary...I agree with your English dub remark except
for "Outlaw Star" and that's only because I've never seen the series.
I've wondered if it was because I saw the dub first? But I saw the
English dub of "Inuyasha" first and I much prefer the Japanese
version. I don't have a problem with the English dub as I think they
are trying to do a good job. I just find it interesting that I feel
that way...
Travers Naran
I've survived simultaneous flame wars with three trolls who were much,
much worse than these guys. And these guys? They ain't much. Also, I
feel like I'm channeling the bellicosity of Harlan Ellison. Some people
just rub me the wrong way... and I'm chewing on my angry candy today.
Unforgiven
> Travers Naran wrote:
>> Unforgiven wrote:
>>> 2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu industry is very
>>> competitive and also how serious the Japanese take voice acting
>
> While the Japanese voice acting industry does have a lot more
> experience then most dubbing studios, I don't automatically accept
> that everything they do is super-ultra-amazing. I find plenty of
> boring, by-the-numbers acting and casting, not to mention all the
> "cute" mouse-on-helium female voices that I can't stand. Dubs tend to
> have a much wider variety of voices, which I appreciate a lot.
You managed to snip the word 'usually' out of my quote. Of course the
quality isn't always better. Such a claim would be insane.
--
Unforgiven
Unforgiven
> "Unforgiven" <jaap...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:brhudg$3b1fs$1...@ID-136341.news.uni-berlin.de:
>
> <snip to the relevent idiocy>
>
> 2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu
>> industry is very competitive and also how serious the Japanese take
>> version is factually (not just subjectively) better.
>
> NO.
>
> IT.
>
> IS.
>
> NOT.
>
> Jeezus H. Christ, you blithering dipshit. There is not such thing as
> FACTUALLY BETTER ACTING. It is entirely your opinion, your SUBJECTIVE
> OPINION, that has NO BASIS IN FACT OTHER THAN WHAT YOU LIKE BETTER.
I don't see why disagreeing with me someone requires calling me names, and I
definitely see what purpose it serves, or how it could possibly beneficial
to your argument.
But yes I suppose you are right. Of course there is no method of determining
an absolute for quality. What I was simply pointing out is that more
competition usually filters out the really bad ones, and the way English
recording is done one actor at a time in a recording booth prevents the
actors from responding to each other, playing off each other's performance.
Those are factors that at least in my mind facilitate better acting. YMMV of
course.
> If you want to listen to crappy mass-produced Japanese voice actors
> who all sound alike and have women who talk in voices never meant to
> come from a human throat, then fine. If you want to think they're
> better and that what I just said is bullshit, then fine. But don't
> go saying there is anything but utter subjectivity in your opinion.
First you accuse me of stating the absolute better-ness of Japanese VAs
(which I didn't) and now you are bluntly stating that Japanese VAs are
crappy. As to them sounding all alike, I don't agree. With different races
there are different things that set them apart. Why do most Asians look
alike to westerners? Because the way we differ from each other (hair/eye
colour being an important factor for white people) is not the way they
differ. We are not attuned to see those differences, but you can learn to. I
suppose the same is true for voices (although I do not know that for sure).
--
Unforgiven
Unforgiven
> Travers Naran <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in message
> news:<dCaDb.11018$OJ.7481@edtnps84>...
>> The Eternal Lost Lurker wrote:
>>
>>> "Travers Naran" <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:Iz9Db.10712$OJ.9058@edtnps84...
>>>
>
> Dude, you are in "battles" with both Blade *and* ELL? YIKES! You
> must be a glutton for abuse. *shakes head and laughs* Why do I keep
> hearing the Monty Python line, "Run away! Run away! Keep running!"
> :-P
"Everybody runs away"
(just saw Minority Report this weekend)
--
Unforgiven
Travers Naran
> "Travers Naran" <tna...@direct.ca> wrote in message
> news:dCaDb.11018$OJ.7481@edtnps84...
>
>> Well, if the shoe fits...
>
> Conveniently ignoring the followup post in which I corrected my own
> typo...
Or maybe I saw this post first and responded?
> Except I don't HAVE a point of view one way or the other on this
> issue. Which I believe I have said. REPEATEDLY. Which you have
> ignored. REPEATEDLY.
OK. We'll start from here then. You have no point of view on the
subject, so I'll just address the taste, opinion and fact arguments.
> You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. You don't even know what
> you're arguing ABOUT.
I do know what I'm arguing about: there is a difference between taste
(biases, if you will) and opinion. Opinions are informed and built from
taste, but it is different. Read this from Merriam-Webster's entry on
Opinion:
> OPINION, VIEW, BELIEF, CONVICTION, PERSUASION, SENTIMENT mean a
> judgment one holds as true. OPINION implies a conclusion thought out
> yet open to dispute <each expert seemed to have a different opinion>.
> VIEW suggests a subjective opinion <very assertive in stating his
> views>. BELIEF implies often deliberate acceptance and intellectual
> assent <a firm belief in her party's platform>. CONVICTION applies to
> a firmly and seriously held belief <the conviction that animal life
> is as sacred as human>. PERSUASION suggests a belief grounded on
> assurance (as by evidence) of its truth <was of the persuasion that
> everything changes>. SENTIMENT suggests a settled opinion reflective
> of one's feelings <her feminist sentiments are well-known>.
You're confusing SENTIMENT with OPINION. An opinion implies something
more than a sentiment, but less than a fact, yet they can be argued and
compared.
>> The criteria for determining truth for physical phenomenon is
>> different than the criteria for determining the quality of art. The
>> physical world is so different from the subjective realm you are
>> talking about that it's really pointless to compare them.
>
> The point I'm trying to make is the same regardless. If you weren't a
> mentally inferior orangutan, you'd grasp this.
I dunno. Orangutans are pretty smart... They'd no the difference
between opinion and a sentiment.
>> Fact and opinion are different animals, but opinion can be argued
>> and compared still.
>
> Yes, but opinion cannot be propped up against a wall and declared to
> be fact.
Opinions can be propped up (argued & defended), but yes, they are less
than fact. But because they are less than fact, you seem to be saying
that it makes them no different than whims.
>> I didn't say "factually better". I just said better which was an
>> informed opinion using criteria most people respect (ability to
>> convey emotion, create unique characters, etc.) Where we have a
>> massive disagreement is where I've always heard good qualities in
>> Japanese voice actors, you claim there aren't.
>
> 1. If you did indeed not say "factually better" to begin with, then I
> apologise. I admit to not knowing exactly who made that comment in
> the first place.
Blade.
> 2. You are, once again, misreading, misinterpreting, and attributing
> things to me which I never said. I have never claimed that Japanese
> voice actors don't have good qualities. I have, in fact, REPEATEDLY
> stated I watch both subs and dubs. Read some of my other posts in
> this thread.
OK, if that is case, then I probably misattributed something from Blade.
> It's saying more than you've managed to say, and it's saying it
> without being self-contradicting, self-depreciating, or just plain
> wrong.
I haven't contradicted myself. Your the own comparing apples and
oranges and reaching the conclusion that income tax exists.
>> But why are you slamming contrary opinions as though you have some
>> special perch to see the truth from?
>
> Ummm...I'm doing no such thing. I'm just illustrating the difference
> between fact and opinion, and pointing out why it's wrong to say
> Japanese voice actors are "factually better" than English ones.
> Again, that is the statement this entire argument has been against.
> Haven't you been paying attention?
But you can argue for a "factual" basis. The presence or non-presence
of emotion. The presence of non-presence of vocal characterizations.
They are criteria used to form an opinion, and it is there or not.
>> Betters?? What I'm reading from you tells me you've never taking a
>> critical thinking course in your life. You don't really
>> understand the difference between taste and opinion. The nature of
>> subjectivity and objectivity, which isn't as clear cut as you
>> think when you get deeper into philosophy.
>
> I don't need to take a course to be able to tell the difference
> between fact, opinion, taste, subjectivity, and objectivity. These
Yes, you do.
> things are common sense, or should be. Perhaps you've taken too MANY
> courses--or perhaps, more likely, you are some pathetic little
> poseur, attempting to pretend you are more intelligent and
> sophisticated than you actually are.
>
> Whatever. I'm getting sick unto death of you.
Yet here you are, still arguing with me.
>> Some opinions are more valid if they are more informed.
>
> No opinion is any more valid than any other opinion. PERIOD. END OF
> FILE.
Yes it can. It's an appraisal or view built not JUST from personal
taste, but also the raw mechanics of the performances. Having some
breadth of knowledge does count for something.
>>> because Beethoven puts me to sleep, Picasso paintings do nothing
>>> for me, and
>>> Tolkein's prose is just about the dryest dreck I've ever tried to
>>> force myself to read.
>>
>> Which really doesn't put you into a good light.
>
>
> How is that so? Because I'm not..."refined"? "Dignified"?
> "Sophisticated"?
It has nothing to do with those labels. It has everything to do with
enjoying things most people find beautiful.
> I have my own tastes--my own OPINIONS!--when it comes to art, music,
See? You confused tastes and opinions again.
> and literature. I like some things, I don't like others. Guess what?
> That makes me the same as you, Blade, Ethan, and EVERYBODY ELSE ON
> THIS ENTIRE GODDAMN PLANET.
>
> Gee, imagine that.
Personal tastes wasn't the question. The question was a) can opinions
be compared and debated? (yes) and b) are the criticisms of Japanese
seiyuu valid?
>> Only in your little mind. You don't have a point to argue. You
>> confuse personal taste and opinion.
>
> Uhh...personal taste *is* opinion, fucktard.
No, it isn't!
>> And I'm trying to argue my point by showing the criteria I judge
>> performance by and showing how they compare.
>
> You can argue your point all you want, it doesn't change the fact
> that what you're arguing is a personal opinion.
A personal opinion based on a love for quality voice acting and broad
base for comparison.
>> No, you've demonstrated you don't understand the nature of
>> "subjective".
>
> Actually, I think I've more than sufficiently proven that I have a
> far greater grasp on subjectivity--and reality--than you do.
You've proved that you can't tell the difference between personal whims
(which is what you're claiming opinions are) and a thought out position
on a subject based on criteria I think everyone accepts.
> Where? Quote me. Find a post where I said PRECISELY THOSE WORDS.
>
> Because guess what? I NEVER DID.
>
> I have never, once, ANYWHERE, said "Japanese voice actors all suck!"
OK, so I may have confused you with Blade. In which case, gomenasai.
> You are rising very rapidly on my personal shit list.
You were already on my list of silly people.
> All opinions are equal. Period. End of file.
No, they are not. An opinion from Roger Ebert on a movie's quality
holds a lot more weight with people than Joe 6-pack from Des Moines.
>> And confusing opinion and fact is a good way to get smacked back.
>
> Then I have nothing to worry about, do I?
You already did confuse them and attempted to smack me down for it.
>> I didn't declare it as "factually" true. Maybe it's your reading
>> comprehension that's in question?
>
> Or perhaps it's simply my memory for who set off this ream of
> bullshit. There's so many fucking imbeciles on this newsgroup it's
> hard to keep track sometimes.
Blade. Simple as that.
> Still, it's one memory error to your, what? Ten? Twelve? Twenty?
> reading comprehension and logic errors.
You can't even count the number of accusations you've thrown at me. It
was more like 8-9 (approx. 3 per reply, but I'm including repetitive
accusations).
Travers Naran
> On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 03:12:40 GMT, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Except for all those times, in those very occasional good Japanese dubs,
>>where I -can- tell the voices apart. Or rather, I can tell they're not
>>just desperately imitating Megumi Hayashibara.
>
> Oh look, the little Anti-Sub Nazis are out again in force. They've
> invoed the Hayashibara defense. These are people who SOMEHOW think
> that Faye Valentine, Rei Ayanami, Lina Inverse, and Tira Misu all
> sound the same. They obviously aren't listening very closely or think
You've identified the problem there: they aren't thinking or listening.
> that in order to "act" you have to be like Gregg Berger and sound like
> Grimlock or Cornfed Pig. Oh sure, there are definitely stereotype
> voices, the deep sultry voice, the high pitched squeeky voice, but
> then again, these, much like hair color are used to represent the
> personality or role of the character, something some people like to
> call archetypes.
The same ones used by dub actors? Dub actors are just as guilty of
playing to archetypes as Japanese seiyuus. The difference being, as you
say later, the acting effort put into it.
> They can't possibly come to the required comprehension that due to
> cultural differences the idea of Japanese voice acting is to actually
> act, not to make comical sounding characters because the majority of
> the characters are not talking ducks, cats, cows, geese, poop, etc.
> Instead they're generally human and sound human, even if falsetto.
I hadn't thought about it that way. But even if they're trying to sound
"distinct" there are also some English voice actors have voices so
distinctive that you can always spot them in whatever animation they're in.
> They also tend to believe that this falsetto is just for anime. Well,
> they've apparently never watched any modern Japanese films or
> documentaries cause you'll hear those high pitched voices there as
> well. But that comes from that whole lolita complex going on there...
I sometimes find the bashing of Japanese voice actors bordering on
prejudice.
Unforgiven
> paranormalized wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:34:06 GMT, "The Eternal Lost Lurker"
>> <os...@raspberry.hv> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Getting tied up in knots arguing for the subjectivity of art often
>> reduces your ability to constructively criticize. Mostly because
>> your energies get spent on the wrong cause. It's more important to
>> discuss specific works than broad generalities like this. While
>> philosophy can be fun, it's not *usually* the best way to discuss
>> art...
>
> Thank you. :-)
>
>> So, ignore the subject/object debate. Discuss what makes art work
>> and fail for you. Getting back on-topic, frankly, I prefer subs
>> because I have pretty much no problem with screen distraction, and
>> haven't felt the impact of voice cliches too much, yet.
>> Familiarity works both ways, it exposes flaws while enriching
>> deepness. If left to myself, I more easily hear flaws in English
>> performances than Japanese ones, just as I can more easily hear a
>> *really good* performance...
>
> To me, the problem is that I watch a lot of American animation as well
> as anime. I love the voice work in animation, maybe because I had a
> misadventure doing sound programming for video games. I love the
> process of acting just with your voice. I love old radio dramas, etc.
> for the same reason. I know American voice artists can do a good job
> conveying emotion and subtlety with their voice. I've heard a LOT of
> good voice work in Japanese anime that do the same thing. Osaka from
> Azumanga Daioh does this so well: she plays Osaka as a childish
> character, but who strives to be taken seriously. There's a nice
> nuance in her voice work there.
Yes, exactly, English work needn't be bad. I like Charlie Adder (*puts on
flame suit*) and if you've ever seen the cartoon Wing Commander Academy; it
was a cheaply produced, poorly animated, averagely written cartoon based of
the great Wing Commander series of computer games, but it had great voice
acting by Mark Hamill, Tom Wilson and Malcolm McDowell (whom I just love in
general, one of my favourite actors).
Just like not all Dutch work needs to be bad. The Sailor Moon dub was
actually quite good (loved the Flemish Luna!! Although it might confuse some
kids into thinking the moon belongs to Belgium ^_^) and the old Metasound
work on Disney movies (such as The Little Mermaid or the Lion King) and
shows (Ducktales and Darkwing Duck) was just great! But all current Dutch
dubbed cartoons (anime included) use about 10 VAs alltogether, and they're
really bad!
> Most dubs I've heard lose all emotion and sound flat. It annoys me
> because I've heard other anime that do it very well. FLCL and Cowboy
> Bebop come to mind. Hayashibara's approach to Faye Valentine and
> Wendy Lee's are interesting to compare. Megumi chose to take a
> tom-boyish girl's voice and tried to make it sound sexy, while Lee
> choice a sexy girl's voice and tried to make it sound tom-boyish.
> They both reach the same destination: a girl who was neither trying
> to pretend she was both. But the problem is it sounds like the
> English voice actors aren't
> putting any effort into it. And listening to their commentary and
> interviews, it makes me think they don't take their anime work
> seriously. I don't think they would last 5 minutes with Andrea
> Romano.
Sometimes it's also the production. For instance, I heard the VAs for
Escaflowne the Movie never even saw the whole movie (or read the whole
script) before recording. How can you properly convey emotional progression
and such if you don't know what the progression is supposed to be?
> Also, I keep pointing out the biggest example of the English voices
> being better than the Japanese ones: Love Hina. I thought the English
> voices for Koala Su and Kitsune voices were attrocious and Shinobu's
> English voice was *too* helium voiced (I think I lost some high freq.
> hearing there). But Keitaro's English voice and Naru's English voice
> was so much BETTER than the Japanese ones. They sounded right.
> Keitaro's voice had more of that cracked geek voice than the Japanese
> guy (who sounds too manly). Naru's Japanese voice was painfully
> high-pitched helium voice, while the English actress put the
> appropriate gruffness & girlishness into it.
WHAT!!! ^_^ Keitaro I can understand a little (although I think he sounds
too much like Larry Laffer (from Leisure Suit Larry)) but Naru??!? Yui Horie
has a beautiful voice, also for singing. And talk about conveying emotion...
There's a point I believe in ep 4 or 5 where Naru and Keitaro have failed
for the Toudai exam, Naru runs away and finally collapses and says "I told
you to stop following me." to Keitaro. Compare the English and Japanese
performances there. Japanese wins hands down.
> It's difficult for me to listen to the original Japanese soundtrack
> anymore, but I will do it for Mitsune Otohime, but then again, I just
> find both voices for Otohime (English & Japanese) just so damned
> sexy! :-)
You're confusing people here. Are you talking about Mitsune Konno (Kitsune)
or Mutsumi Otohime? Kitsune has a terrible English voice imo, but I don't
really like southern US accents.
imo the only decent voice in the Love Hina English dub is Sakata Kentaro.
But I *really* love the Japanese voices for Love Hina (all of them) so I'm
kinda biased.
>> Heh. Anyone want to bring up Yoko Kanno's penchant for imaginary
>> languages? She obviously thinks purposeful unfamiliarity has
>> strengths, but what exactly are they? Any guesses?
>
> I can't think of any examples of it. All of her music I've ever heard
> had English or Japanese lyrics. Can you provide an example?
Cat's Delicacy from Escaflowne (OST2) sounds a little like it's French, but
it is just gibberish. Also, she uses other real languages than English and
Japanese. Sora from Escaflowne the Movie is in ancient Romanian.
--
Unforgiven
Unforgiven
> Unforgiven wrote:
>
>> atrocious, like Love Hina for example...
>
> Well, the English voices for Keitaro and Naru were pretty good, better
> than the Japanese ones IMHO. But the rest ranged from adequate,
> Mitsume Otohime, to downright horrible: Koala Suu and Kitsune.
>
>> For me, there are a few reasons why I will always watch the Japanese
>> dub when available:
>> 1. Watching the show as intended. The Japanese version is the way the
>> creators wanted it to be, in acting, directing and casting. The
>> English version is an interpretation in all three regards, plus you
>> have the dialog changes for lip-flap, translators that think they're
>> funny, etc.
>
> Part of the problem is that to do a proper translation, you should
> know how to write. Most manga & anime adapters couldn't write their
> way out of a paper bag.
>
>> 2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu industry is very
>> competitive and also how serious the Japanese take voice acting and
>> several other factors usually mean the Japanese version is factually
>> (not just subjectively) better.
>
> from a small pool of actors of mediocre quality. There is a highly
> competitive animation voice over industry in North America, and the
> better actors command high wages. Most dubs are done on shoe-string
> budgets.
>
>> 3. Certain nuances that are present in Japanese aren't present in
>> English. The type of personal pronouns someone uses (boku, ore,
>> watashi, watakushi, atashi, etc.), the way they address people
>> (-san, -sama-, -sempai, -kun, -chan, etc.), the kinds of emphatic
>> particles they use, and lots of other thing that neither the subs
>> nor dubs can accurately convey tell you a lot about someone's
>> character; only the the Japanese language track can convey those.
>> Also, I'm learning Japanese, and every bit of practice helps. ^_^
>
> A good translator/adaptor can overcome almost all of this. To be a
> good translator, you have to be a good writer too. You must know how
> to convey those meaning in English without resorting to awkward
> translations (e.g., "Upperclassman Kuno"). If you read the
> translations of many major Japanese authors, the translators rarely
> have to resort to using Japanese directly.
>
> titles in. For movies translated from Spanish, it's getting common to
> leave in Senor and Senorita. It's not too weird to hear Monsieur,
> Madamemoiselle or Madame in English movies. So leaving in -sempai and
> -sama and -chan isn't that weird.
>
>> 4. When I purchase locally available anime, the only dub tracks will
>> be German and French. Since German dubs in particular are horrible
>> ("Traur nicht, Herr Van!") and my Japanese is actually better than
>> my German or my French, what would be the point? ^_^
>
> Where are you living? 8-)
"Where are you living?"... doesn't sound right to me. Sounds like a
Japanese-ism to me 'Doko ni sunde iru ka'. ^_^
NOTE: Sticking ism to the end of random words is fun!
I'm from the Netherlands. Our local anime comes from Dybex (formerly Dynamic
Visions), which is based in French but also releases DVDs for the
Dutch/Flemish market. Their website is at www.dybex.nl, but it's in Dutch.
--
Unforgiven
Unforgiven
> pussy at the same time.
Wow, if you'd be able to do that it must break some kind of record I think!
^_^
--
Unforgiven
Unforgiven
> "Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:<kYXCb.193927$Ec1.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>>> subtitles and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
>>
>> Yes it does, which is why I don't like dubs.
>> By the way you have to watch Nuku Nuku subtitled.
>
> Hayashibara Megumi demands all of her titles be watched in Japanese --
> domesticated subtitles or not. :-D
*nods*, very true indeed my good sir!
--
Unforgiven
Unforgiven
> based in French
Uhm... it's based in *France* of course...
--
Unforgiven
Travers Naran
> Travers Naran wrote:
>
> Yes, exactly, English work needn't be bad. I like Charlie Adder (*puts on
> flame suit*) and if you've ever seen the cartoon Wing Commander Academy; it
> was a cheaply produced, poorly animated, averagely written cartoon based of
> the great Wing Commander series of computer games, but it had great voice
> acting by Mark Hamill, Tom Wilson and Malcolm McDowell (whom I just love in
> general, one of my favourite actors).
Mark Hamill is an excellent voice actor. I think it says something that
the recent live-action series "Birds of Prey" used Mark Hamil for the Joker.
> Just like not all Dutch work needs to be bad. The Sailor Moon dub was
> actually quite good (loved the Flemish Luna!! Although it might confuse some
> kids into thinking the moon belongs to Belgium ^_^) and the old Metasound
> work on Disney movies (such as The Little Mermaid or the Lion King) and
> shows (Ducktales and Darkwing Duck) was just great! But all current Dutch
> dubbed cartoons (anime included) use about 10 VAs alltogether, and they're
> really bad!
That's kind of sad. I would have thought there would be a lot more
Dutch actors to work with.
> Sometimes it's also the production. For instance, I heard the VAs for
> Escaflowne the Movie never even saw the whole movie (or read the whole
> script) before recording. How can you properly convey emotional progression
> and such if you don't know what the progression is supposed to be?
Some ADR directors believe actors perform better if they discover the
story along with the characters (e.g., Angelic Layer). Strangely
enough, no movie director seems to believe that...
> WHAT!!! ^_^ Keitaro I can understand a little (although I think he sounds
> too much like Larry Laffer (from Leisure Suit Larry)) but Naru??!? Yui Horie
> has a beautiful voice, also for singing. And talk about conveying emotion...
> There's a point I believe in ep 4 or 5 where Naru and Keitaro have failed
> for the Toudai exam, Naru runs away and finally collapses and says "I told
> you to stop following me." to Keitaro. Compare the English and Japanese
> performances there. Japanese wins hands down.
See? These are opinions that can be compared and debated? :-)
I used to like Yui Horie's performance when I watched the fan subs, but
for some reason, I just have a hard time associating her voice with Naru
now. But I do agree: she does have her moments. Also in front of Tokyo
U and when Keitaro and Naru meet for the first time in the hall of their
cram school.
>>It's difficult for me to listen to the original Japanese soundtrack
>>anymore, but I will do it for Mitsune Otohime, but then again, I just
>>find both voices for Otohime (English & Japanese) just so damned
>>sexy! :-)
>
> You're confusing people here. Are you talking about Mitsune Konno (Kitsune)
> or Mutsumi Otohime? Kitsune has a terrible English voice imo, but I don't
> really like southern US accents.
ACK! Freudian slip. I did mean Mutsumi. BOKU-WA BAKA! I love the
Japanese seiyuu's performance of Hot Springs Turtle song on the soundtrack.
The English version of Kitsune was just horrible. Cognitive dissonance
aside, it was just a really bad Southern accent.
> imo the only decent voice in the Love Hina English dub is Sakata Kentaro.
> But I *really* love the Japanese voices for Love Hina (all of them) so I'm
> kinda biased.
I think the English casting for the rest of the series was acceptable,
but two performance decisions mar it badly: Mitsune "Kitsune" Konno and
Koalla Su. Those two performances drag the rest down.
> Cat's Delicacy from Escaflowne (OST2) sounds a little like it's French, but
> it is just gibberish. Also, she uses other real languages than English and
> Japanese. Sora from Escaflowne the Movie is in ancient Romanian.
I'll have to check it out.
Unforgiven
> Unforgiven wrote:
>
>> Travers Naran wrote:
>>
>> Yes, exactly, English work needn't be bad. I like Charlie Adder
>> (*puts on flame suit*) and if you've ever seen the cartoon Wing
>> Commander Academy; it was a cheaply produced, poorly animated,
>> averagely written cartoon based of the great Wing Commander series
>> of computer games, but it had great voice acting by Mark Hamill, Tom
>> Wilson and Malcolm McDowell (whom I just love in general, one of my
>> favourite actors).
>
> Mark Hamill is an excellent voice actor. I think it says something
> that the recent live-action series "Birds of Prey" used Mark Hamil
> for the Joker.
Yeah, he's very good. He's also good at doing voices where you really have
no idea it's him. He does three voices in the computer game Full Throttle
(most notably Adrian Ripburger) and had I not known there's no way I
would've heard it. He's also in the Wing Commander movie, although the
younger version of his character from the games (Christopher Blair) is
played by Freddy Prinze Jr., he does the voice of the Rapier's computer
system 'Merlin'. It's not in the credits, but I know it to be true.
Speaking of that, although I can understand that they thought Mark Hamill
and Tom Wilson were too old to play there respective characters of Chris
Blair and Todd 'Maniac' Marshall, replacing Malcolm McDowell (Admiral
Geoffrey Tolwyn) in Wing Commander the movie was just a crime!
--
Unforgiven
Rob Kelk
wrote:
>paranormalized <cnendabe...@rndeguyvdax.arg> wrote in message news:<tibqtv04gtop5rt5a...@4ax.com>...
>> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:40:29 GMT, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> *snip snip*
>> > Why the hell is the fricking 90s Sub Nazi Clique
>> >popping out of nowhere?
>> >
>> Hmmm, isn't it a bit early to invoke Godel's Law? Or are you *trying*
>> to end the tread, Blade?
>>
>>
>> Jonathan Fisher
>
>Blade-san does not suffer those he considers to be baka (myself in
>that list) well, Jonathan-san. :-D
Well, that explains why he moved into his own place a few months ago...
^_^
Seriously, and getting back to the earlier point here... Anybody who
thinks the Japanese voice-acting industry always produces great voice
work is invited to watch the classic "Dirty Pair" TV series in Japanese.
(Yes, I know the premise made in this debate was that Japanese
voice-acting industry *usually* produces great voice work, not that it
*always* does. I wanted to preemptively forestall the most extreme
arguements...)
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> robkelk -at- jksrv -dot- com
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of
childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis, 1947
Arnold Kim
> "The Eternal Lost Lurker" <os...@raspberry.hv> wrote in message
> >
> > When anime is dubbed, there's more to consider than simply a
translation.
> It
> > has to actually make sense when spoken in English, and it has to match
the
> > lip-flap (the mouth movements of the characters on screen). Writing
timed
> > dub scripts is not an easy task, and it's quite common for a lot of
things
> > to be changed because of lip-flap, clarity of meaning, and cultural
> > exchanges (most dubs are written with the logic in mind that anyone
> watching
> > a dub doesn't grok Japanese culture).
>
> Actually it dosen't really have to match the lip flaps since the original
> first and then do the dialouge. The only exception to this that I know
> of is Akira. Another problem is that a lot of translator try to make the
> shows funnier when they write the dub scripts instead of just translate
> them.
Dubs try to match lip flaps in terms of length of time, not movement.
Arnold Kim
Arnold Kim
"Rob Kelk" <rob...@deadspam.com> wrote in message
news:3fddc458...@News.Individual.NET...
> On 14 Dec 2003 22:54:58 -0800, sp...@astronerdboy.com (AstroNerdBoy)
> wrote:
>
> >paranormalized <cnendabe...@rndeguyvdax.arg> wrote in message
news:<tibqtv04gtop5rt5a...@4ax.com>...
> >> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:40:29 GMT, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> *snip snip*
> >> > Why the hell is the fricking 90s Sub Nazi Clique
> >> >popping out of nowhere?
> >> >
> >> Hmmm, isn't it a bit early to invoke Godel's Law? Or are you *trying*
> >> to end the tread, Blade?
> >>
> >>
> >> Jonathan Fisher
> >
> >Blade-san does not suffer those he considers to be baka (myself in
> >that list) well, Jonathan-san. :-D
>
> Well, that explains why he moved into his own place a few months ago...
> ^_^
>
> Seriously, and getting back to the earlier point here... Anybody who
> thinks the Japanese voice-acting industry always produces great voice
> work is invited to watch the classic "Dirty Pair" TV series in Japanese.
I'm convinced that a lot of english speakers can't pick up certain nuances
in Japanese voice acting due to our "untrained" ears, so it _all_ sounds
great
At least I'm willing to admit that part of the reason why I might like subs
is that Japanese simply sounds cool.
> (Yes, I know the premise made in this debate was that Japanese
> voice-acting industry *usually* produces great voice work, not that it
> *always* does. I wanted to preemptively forestall the most extreme
> arguements...)
Even "usually" might be debateable, for all we know...
Arnold Kim
The Eternal Lost Lurker
> I've survived simultaneous flame wars with three trolls who were much,
> much worse than these guys. And these guys? They ain't much.
The irony...
--
I'm not impressed by giant breasts.
I think they're a mess.
But I digress.
=+=
The Eternal Lost Lurker
www.lurkerdrome.com
Jorge Pratt
what, eight years ago? XD
Honestly, this is, has been, and will always be all about *personal
opinion*. No need to get so worked up over it for either side.
One show's dub might be superior to the original language, another's might
be utter drek. It's not a rule one way or another, and even within a single
show there might be both excellent and hideous Western actors (sometimes in
the same scene.) That doesn't denote "the dub's weakness," but just "the
actor's weakness."
Take the recent Last Exile, for instance. I vastly prefer the dub voices for
practically everyone except Alex, who sounds much, much better in Japanese.
In the Mexican dub of Ranma 1/2, I thought that pretty much everyone except
Kuno, Nabiki and Kasumi surpassed their Japanese equivalents. Dragon Ball Z
and Saint Seiya's Mexican dubs are so beautifully crafted that I simply
could never think of them as inferior (or even equal) to their original
versions.
But then there's also dubs like Evangelion, where only Gendou managed to
astound me with his magnitude. The American version of Saint Seiya is
painful to listen, and the less said about the older Iczer and "Warriors of
the Wind" the better.
Still, that's all personal opinion. I can accept anyone else challenging
these views, because it's just my own taste, as (im)popular as it may be. In
that case, I would state why I think such and such is inferior, superior or
equal, but only to express why *I*, and I alone, believe this to be the
case. I wouldn't try to pass off my opinion as a sort of general consensus,
simply because I don't know how many others would agree --I would know,
however, that someone out there would *disagree*, and I respect that.
In my case, I typically watch everything in its original language (when
available,) but eventually I give other versions their fair shot. Sometimes
I'm very pleasantly surprised, sometimes I switch back to Japanese
immediately. That doesn't mean that Western dubs are "generally" inferior OR
superior to the Japanese version. It just means that in that very particular
case, the individual actors were responsible for their own individual
renditions.
The Zephyr
(Trivia: Hideo Kojima loves Western dubs so much he prefers the US dubbing
studio to his own countrymen.)
Arnold Kim
> >
> >>Blade wrote:
> >>
> >>No such thing as factually better acting?
> >
> > Correct. I'm glad you and an obvious truth could meet, even if was only
> > for a brief time.
>
> There is such a thing as factually better acting as there is such a
> thing as factually better drawing. There is a common set of criteria
> most people agree defines good acting.
About ten years ago, Jack Nicholson was nominated for a Golden Globe (Best
Actor) and a Razzie Award (Worst Actor) for the SAME ROLE. Which one is
"factually right?"
Yes, there are common criteria that defines good acting. But why is it that
even the most erudite of film critics can disagree on the quality of an
actor's performance in a film?
Arnold Kim
The Eternal Lost Lurker
> > 1. If you did indeed not say "factually better" to begin with, then I
> > apologise. I admit to not knowing exactly who made that comment in
> > the first place.
>
> Blade.
Wrong answer.
> > 2. You are, once again, misreading, misinterpreting, and attributing
> > things to me which I never said. I have never claimed that Japanese
> > voice actors don't have good qualities. I have, in fact, REPEATEDLY
> > stated I watch both subs and dubs. Read some of my other posts in
> > this thread.
>
> OK, if that is case, then I probably misattributed something from Blade.
Wrong answer.
> > It's saying more than you've managed to say, and it's saying it
> > without being self-contradicting, self-depreciating, or just plain
> > wrong.
>
> I haven't contradicted myself. Your the own comparing apples and
> oranges and reaching the conclusion that income tax exists.
Wrong answer.
> > I don't need to take a course to be able to tell the difference
> > between fact, opinion, taste, subjectivity, and objectivity. These
>
> Yes, you do.
Wrong answer.
> > Whatever. I'm getting sick unto death of you.
>
> Yet here you are, still arguing with me.
Not anymore I'm not. *keeeeeeeer-plonk!*
> > How is that so? Because I'm not..."refined"? "Dignified"?
> > "Sophisticated"?
>
> It has nothing to do with those labels. It has everything to do with
> enjoying things most people find beautiful.
Oh, I see. So in other words, because my opinion differs from yours, I am
therefore cast in a bad light. *nodnod*
Wrong answer.
> > I have my own tastes--my own OPINIONS!--when it comes to art, music,
>
> See? You confused tastes and opinions again.
Wrong answer.
> Personal tastes wasn't the question. The question was a) can opinions
> be compared and debated? (yes) and b) are the criticisms of Japanese
> seiyuu valid?
Whatever you say, Mr. Fucktard...
> > Uhh...personal taste *is* opinion, fucktard.
>
> No, it isn't!
Except it IS. Ask any fifteen people on the street if taste is a matter of
opinion. Care to place a wager on what they'll say?
> You've proved that you can't tell the difference between personal whims
> (which is what you're claiming opinions are) and a thought out position
> on a subject based on criteria I think everyone accepts.
*sigh* I'd hate to be a teacher with you in my class. I'd probably commit
suicide...or homicide...you're one of the most singularly annoying fuckwits
I've ever had the displeasure to butt heads with. -_-
> > You are rising very rapidly on my personal shit list.
>
> You were already on my list of silly people.
I feel special, somehow.
> > All opinions are equal. Period. End of file.
>
> No, they are not. An opinion from Roger Ebert on a movie's quality
> holds a lot more weight with people than Joe 6-pack from Des Moines.
....
*dies laughing*
You're using...a MOVIE CRITIC...to back up your argument?
....
*dies laughing*
> >> And confusing opinion and fact is a good way to get smacked back.
> >
> > Then I have nothing to worry about, do I?
>
> You already did confuse them and attempted to smack me down for it.
Wrong answer.
> > Or perhaps it's simply my memory for who set off this ream of
> > bullshit. There's so many fucking imbeciles on this newsgroup it's
> > hard to keep track sometimes.
>
> Blade. Simple as that.
Wrong answer.
> > Still, it's one memory error to your, what? Ten? Twelve? Twenty?
> > reading comprehension and logic errors.
>
> You can't even count the number of accusations you've thrown at me.
You misspelled "didn't bother to".
Anyway, killfiling you now, because I can feel my IQ points being sucked
into the black hole between your ears.
Arnold Kim
"Chibi-Light" <chibiw...@YUM-SPAM.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rsrqtv4919l113b84...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 03:12:40 GMT, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Except for all those times, in those very occasional good Japanese dubs,
> >where I -can- tell the voices apart. Or rather, I can tell they're not
> >just desperately imitating Megumi Hayashibara.
>
> Oh look, the little Anti-Sub Nazis are out again in force. They've
Blade isn't an Anti-Sub Nazi, in fact it's pretty funny that you say that,
since in the 6-7 years I've "known" him on the net, he's made it pretty
clear that he likes both. He just has little patience for people who claim
their opinion as fact.
(And before you invoke pot-kettle-black, notice his use of "I" in the
preceding statement.)
> invoed the Hayashibara defense. These are people who SOMEHOW think
> that Faye Valentine, Rei Ayanami, Lina Inverse, and Tira Misu all
> sound the same. They obviously aren't listening very closely or think
> that in order to "act" you have to be like Gregg Berger and sound like
> Grimlock or Cornfed Pig. Oh sure, there are definitely stereotype
> voices, the deep sultry voice, the high pitched squeeky voice, but
> then again, these, much like hair color are used to represent the
> personality or role of the character, something some people like to
> call archetypes.
>
> They can't possibly come to the required comprehension that due to
> cultural differences the idea of Japanese voice acting is to actually
> act, not to make comical sounding characters because the majority of
> the characters are not talking ducks, cats, cows, geese, poop, etc.
> Instead they're generally human and sound human, even if falsetto.
These are claims that _you're_ presuming, nothing that Blade or ELL or
anyone has actually said. And what little he has said on the subject (which
is _far_ from being his point) is his opinion.
By the way, your condescending tone towards people who prefer dubs (which
I'm not necessarily a part of) is uncalled for
Arnold Kim
Arnold Kim
"Unforgiven" <jaap...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:brk9nc$47f5q$1...@ID-136341.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Blade wrote:
> > "Unforgiven" <jaap...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > news:brhudg$3b1fs$1...@ID-136341.news.uni-berlin.de:
> >
> > <snip to the relevent idiocy>
> >
> > 2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu
> >> industry is very competitive and also how serious the Japanese take
> >> voice acting and several other factors usually mean the Japanese
> >> version is factually (not just subjectively) better.
> >
> > NO.
> >
> > IT.
> >
> > IS.
> >
> > NOT.
> >
> > Jeezus H. Christ, you blithering dipshit. There is not such thing as
> > FACTUALLY BETTER ACTING. It is entirely your opinion, your SUBJECTIVE
> > OPINION, that has NO BASIS IN FACT OTHER THAN WHAT YOU LIKE BETTER.
>
> I don't see why disagreeing with me someone requires calling me names, and
I
> definitely see what purpose it serves, or how it could possibly beneficial
> to your argument.
Blade, he's right. You do kind of fly off the handle on these things
sometimes.
> > If you want to listen to crappy mass-produced Japanese voice actors
> > who all sound alike and have women who talk in voices never meant to
> > come from a human throat, then fine. If you want to think they're
> > better and that what I just said is bullshit, then fine. But don't
> > go saying there is anything but utter subjectivity in your opinion.
>
> First you accuse me of stating the absolute better-ness of Japanese VAs
> (which I didn't) and now you are bluntly stating that Japanese VAs are
The key here is that you said that the "Japanese version is factually (not
just subjectively) better. Even if Blade's opinion is that Japanese VAs are
"crappy" and "mass-produced", he never made the foolish claim that his
opinion is fact.
> crappy. As to them sounding all alike, I don't agree. With different races
> there are different things that set them apart. Why do most Asians look
> alike to westerners? Because the way we differ from each other (hair/eye
> colour being an important factor for white people) is not the way they
> differ. We are not attuned to see those differences, but you can learn to.
I
> suppose the same is true for voices (although I do not know that for
sure).
I think it's kind of the opposite, actually. I'm Korean, so sometimes I
used to watch Korean dubbed anime, and I've always noticed that there's a
rather smooth transition in going from the Korean voice I'm used to hearing,
to the Japanese voice, and vice-versa. On the other hand, going from either
version to the English dub can be very jarring.
Arnold Kim
elsie
> So, are you deconstructionist who believes all points of view are
> equally valid? In which case, I'm perfectly right in saying Japanese
> voice actors are talented and varied, and you are perfectly right in
> saying they aren't. And you're perfectly right in thinking your not a
> soft-minded fuzzy thinker, and I'm perfectly right in thinking you're an
> idiot. It's a subjective opinion so you can't argue against it. You
> said so yourself.
>
I'm going to pop in here and clarify something.
That's not what deconstructionists are saying. They are not saying all
points of view are equally valid. They say rather that all points of view
are fundamentally flawed in that close analysis reveals that any point of
view ultimately contradicts itself. Some contradict themselves sooner; some
contradict themselves later; but all contradict their own arguments. The job
of a deconstructionist is to uncover the point of contradiction. It's a
fascinating theory. It's also some of the most incredibly dense reading
anyone is ever likely to do.
laurie
Unforgiven
> news:E_hDb.13268$OJ.4367@edtnps84...
>>> 1. If you did indeed not say "factually better" to begin with, then
>>> I apologise. I admit to not knowing exactly who made that comment
>>> in the first place.
>>
>> Blade.
I was the one who used that wording, and I have already said in another post
in this thread that it was too strong
--
Unforgiven
Travers Naran
That's not entirely accurate. At its heart, deconstructionist is about
exposing the hidden assumptions, "facts" and ideas that any work is
based on. It is de-constructing a text and exposing the hidden logic.
So exposing thie contradiction is just one part of the grand
deconstructionist enterprise. One branch tried to show that all points
of view are equally valid and that notions of "accepted truths" really
had nothing to stand on. That's what ELL and Blade were arguing for.
Deconstructionism is hard to figure because it seems like agendas took
hold of a lot of them so tracing back to the core idea is hard. There
are those who try to show the inherent sexism in literature, or the
inherent racism inside society's structures, etc. It's pretty diverse.
Travers Naran
Because there are occasionally shades of gray. Just because gray exists
doesn't mean there isn't black and white.
Travers Naran
> Wrong answer.
>
> Wrong answer.
>
> Wrong answer.
>
> Wrong answer.
ELL's motto: "I don't need to be reasonable because I'm right!" Archie
Bunker would be proud.
> Not anymore I'm not. *keeeeeeeer-plonk!*
YAAAY! Now I can enjoy r.a.a.m in peace.
>>It has nothing to do with those labels. It has everything to do with
>>enjoying things most people find beautiful.
>
> Oh, I see. So in other words, because my opinion differs from yours, I am
> therefore cast in a bad light. *nodnod*
>
> Wrong answer.
Someone coming in disparaging anime in this group would be viewed in a
bad light. Your tastes just make you seem rather dull-witted.
> Whatever you say, Mr. Fucktard...
Oooh! One note insultor!
> Except it IS. Ask any fifteen people on the street if taste is a matter of
> opinion. Care to place a wager on what they'll say?
Place a wager on your opinion?
> *sigh* I'd hate to be a teacher with you in my class. I'd probably commit
> suicide...or homicide...you're one of the most singularly annoying fuckwits
> I've ever had the displeasure to butt heads with. -_-
You're basic response is to stick to calling me some form of fuck*
> I feel special, somehow.
Taking the short bus school would make you feel special.
>>No, they are not. An opinion from Roger Ebert on a movie's quality
>>holds a lot more weight with people than Joe 6-pack from Des Moines.
>
> *dies laughing*
>
> You're using...a MOVIE CRITIC...to back up your argument?
>
> ....
>
> *dies laughing*
It doesn't change it's truth. As sites like Rotten Tomatoes and Yahoo!
Movies "Critic's Report Card" shows, people believe opinions can be
debated and compared. Laughing at things won't make them go away.
> Wrong answer.
>
> Wrong answer.
Translation of ELL's 'argument': "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA! I'm rubber, you're
glue! Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you! Nyaaah!"
>>You can't even count the number of accusations you've thrown at me.
>
> You misspelled "didn't bother to".
>
> Anyway, killfiling you now, because I can feel my IQ points being sucked
> into the black hole between your ears.
If you had any IQ points... Good riddance.
Jorge Pratt
<snip>
...you know, you're really not helping your position any with a
condescending attitude like this one.
The Zephyr
(And neither did you "win" by having ELL plonk you. o_O)
James Marshall
>Of course, there are situations where the English dub just is atrocious,
>like Love Hina for example...
Yes, I've heard a little bit of that and I'm not sure I could stand to
watch all of the anime dubbed. Not unless I wanted to sit there and mock
it while laughing more often than the show intended. :) If I had heard
it first though, I don't know, it might be different. But stuff I buy I
normally watch subbed first, then try to do dubbed later. I paid enough
money, I have two versions, I might as well watch both versions.
>For me, there are a few reasons why I will always watch the Japanese dub
>when available:
>1. Watching the show as intended.
True, English dubs are going to change things around. How much, I don't
know. I'm not that experienced.
>2. As you mentioned, quality.
I hear this a lot. I guess I'm still to inexperienced to tell. Love Hina
is the only one where I heard some of the dub and thought it was pretty
bad. Most of the times, I don't know, but I usually try to avoid comparing.
I get the feeling that whichever I watch first will tend to sound right
most of the time. *shrug*
>3. Certain nuances that are present in Japanese aren't present in English.
Agreed. This is definitely something I like seeing/hearing. Differences
in pronounce and name suffixes, etc. give clues to the relationships between
people that are usually missed in the English dub.
>4. When I purchase locally available anime, the only dub tracks will be
>German and French. Since German dubs in particular are horrible ("Traur
>nicht, Herr Van!") and my Japanese is actually better than my German or my
>French, what would be the point? ^_^
Interesting. :) Good point though.
>5. It makes me feel more elitist. (okay, not really ^_^ but for some people
>I'm guessing this is also a reason)
Heh. :) My other main reason, besides the ones above which I guess are
all true, is that the subtitles tend to be more accurate translations.
The few things I've watched subbed and dubbed I have noticed differences
here and there. And if things are being changed in the dub, I'd rather
watch the sub first and see what it was really supposed to say.
>Dubs have their uses, and if you like them, go ahead and watch them. If you
>like subs, go ahead and watch those. To each his/her own.
*nod* Dubs aren't all bad. Some of the reasons I like dubs: On my small
TV, subs can be hard to read if I'm not semi-close to the TV, I can watch
dubs from clear across the room if I want because I don't have to read
stuff on the TV. Dubs don't require as much focus -- since I can understand
English dubs, I can drop my attention for a few seconds, say to get a bite
of food (I often watch TV while eating), and not worry about missing some
crucial dialogue. With subs I really have to keep my attention on the
screen all the time so as not to miss any of the subtitles; some do flash
by fairly fast. And sometimes subs are just hard to read, light colored
text on light backgrounds. Not a major problem most of the time, but it
can show up now and then as the colors of the scene under the subs changes.
But mainly I'll watch the subs if I can because I think the translation is
more accurate and I like hearing the nuances of the language that I'm
getting used to and would be gone in the English dub translation.
--
. . . . -- James Marshall (SAG) .
,. -- )-- , , . -- )-- , mars...@astro.umd.edu ,. . ,
' ' http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall .
"Electrons are just purple hazes with green racing stripes." , .
Lena B Katz
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, Pete Holland Jr. wrote:
> Hey, Touma!
>
> > Is it unusual to have this much of a difference between the subtitles
> > and the dub? Or does this happen a lot?
>
> Well, it seems to depend. Some productions try to punch things up a
> bit. From what I've seen, dialogue is more metaphorical and poetic with
> Oriental works. I recall an interview with a guy who runs a US based
> Hong Kong film magazine, and he was explaining that something translated
> in the US as "Let's give 'em hell!" could be in Chinese, "Let us show
> them our influence."
Let's give 'em hell is inherently more metaphorical than "Let us show them
our influence" as it references our cultural meaning of what hell is. It
is impossible to give them hell literally, ergo it must be metaphor. "Let
us show them our influence" otoh, is a quite possible literal meaning.
FWIW, I do understand what you were feebly trying to say... the American
version is much, much more aggressive. I'd favor toning it down... a lot.
Hmm... "Let's show them our muscle" is a more subtle use... but still not
right.
What, in my mind, sounds _better_ is "Hey, boys, let's show 'em what we
can do." the tone's right, the meaning is off. grr... translating is
hard, ne?
Lena
Chibi-Light
wrote:
>I hadn't thought about it that way. But even if they're trying to sound
>"distinct" there are also some English voice actors have voices so
>distinctive that you can always spot them in whatever animation they're in.
Well hell yeah. Go watch Dragonheart. The dragon is plain as day
Sean Connery. There's no question about it. Now in that movie, while
it's obviously him, since he CAN act his character's speach is
entirely believable and doesn't cause any cringing like one does on
B-rate dub actors.
CL
Chibi-Light
<0070...@academ01.ccm.itesm.mx> wrote:
>Woohoo! A dub-sub flamewar! I thought people had gotten fed up with them...
>what, eight years ago? XD
Yay!!!!!
>Honestly, this is, has been, and will always be all about *personal
>opinion*. No need to get so worked up over it for either side.
Well duh. It's the one point I agree on for both sides of the silly
battle.
>One show's dub might be superior to the original language, another's might
>be utter drek. It's not a rule one way or another, and even within a single
>show there might be both excellent and hideous Western actors (sometimes in
>the same scene.) That doesn't denote "the dub's weakness," but just "the
>actor's weakness."
Yep, it's true. Just like any other form of acting. Even though
I'll disagree with my own example here, you've got Keanu Reeves and
Lawrence Fishburne together in the Matrix. (I like Keanu, sorry). =P
CL
Lena B Katz
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, Blade wrote:
> "Unforgiven" <jaap...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:brhudg$3b1fs$1...@ID-136341.news.uni-berlin.de:
>
> <snip to the relevent idiocy>
>
> 2. As you mentioned, quality. The Japanese seiyuu
> > industry is very competitive and also how serious the Japanese take
> > voice acting and several other factors usually mean the Japanese
> > version is factually (not just subjectively) better.
>
> NO.
>
> IT.
>
> IS.
>
> NOT.
>
> Jeezus H. Christ, you blithering dipshit. There is not such thing as
> FACTUALLY BETTER ACTING.
It depends on the script... if the script says
YY (tearfully): "I hate you, I'm leaving."
If you say that with a laughing happy voice, or with a purely angry
voice... you're misinterpreting the script.
If you willfully pervert something that was intended to be really, really
sad, into something that is really happy (see some versions of Romeo and
Juliet, particularly the ones where no one dies), that's not being
faithful to the script.
Now, whether you come up with a better product in the end may be
debatable... at least in plays. But, when the voice and the picture
don't correspond well, the show suffers.
Just like in writing, it is very possible to communicate something the
original writer didn't intend, simply by misplacing emotional cues. I've
done it enough in writing to have an intimate knowledge of it.
Fortunately, in most dubs, the acting job can only really be rated
subjectively.
Lena
Chibi-Light
wrote:
>Blade isn't an Anti-Sub Nazi, in fact it's pretty funny that you say that,
>since in the 6-7 years I've "known" him on the net, he's made it pretty
>clear that he likes both. He just has little patience for people who claim
>their opinion as fact.
Sure he is, he attacks anyone that says subs are better instead of
just smiling and nodding alot and letting it pass by.
>(And before you invoke pot-kettle-black, notice his use of "I" in the
>preceding statement.)
Oooh ooh! I wanna be the kettle!
>These are claims that _you're_ presuming, nothing that Blade or ELL or
>anyone has actually said. And what little he has said on the subject (which
>is _far_ from being his point) is his opinion.
Only the first part was directed at him and in case you missed the
point he claimed that actresses are trying to imitate Megumi
Hayashibara. Okay, which character, they sound different.
>By the way, your condescending tone towards people who prefer dubs (which
>I'm not necessarily a part of) is uncalled for
My condesending tone was directed toward Blade and ELL for fighting
with people over stupid opinions that don't affect their enjoyment of
anime one way or the other. Frankly, I don't give a rats ass if
people only watch dubs and want only dubs to be sold. I don't watch
dubs with them, they don't watch dubs with me. So they can go knock
themselves out with dubs all they want, it really doesn't matter in
the grand scheme of things.
And I'll bet, the resent met of sub fans for dub fans comes from the
days of VHS when to buy a sub cost $5 to $10 more than a dub did for
essentially the same product.
Nyah.
CL
Vince Lamb
> gram...@hotmail.com (Vince Lamb) wrote in
> news:586abfa1.03121...@posting.google.com:
> > paranormalized <cnendabe...@rndeguyvdax.arg> wrote in message
> > news:<tibqtv04gtop5rt5a...@4ax.com>...
>
> >> Or are you *trying* to end the tread, Blade?
> >
>
> Huh? Has he been in my killfile before or something? In any case, I
> replied to his post before you did.
Gomen.
I suspected this would happen, which is why I wrote "As far as I can
tell". I read through Google, which means that I can miss posts made
within the past few hours. In this case, your reply to Paranormalized
hadn't yet appeared on Google. I couldn't tell, and it had been a
while since his original post, so I thought you were not replying to
him. I was mistaken.
As for my using a real newreader, my ISP's newsserver is not as
reliable as Google.
> Blade
> *******
Vince "Professor Plum" Lamb
"Washuu has crabs!"