New SelectSmart political classifier for Vosem Chart!
Colin Drake
spectrum, I think it'd be great if we could all take a political quiz
and post our results. This little test at
http://selectsmart.com/plus/select.php?url=Vosem should be handy (it
will rank your compatibility with the eight different political
groups). Are anime fans on the more liberal side . . . or are they
more conservative than people think? Or purely libertarian, maybe, or
is anarcho-syndicalist more like it?
Dale
I don't know why I am doing this but here are my results:
Liberal (100%), Totalitarian (74%), New Labor (70%),
Anarcho-Syndicalists (62%), Authortarian (42%), Liberterian (35%),
Conservative (13%)
Adam Haun
wrote:
Let's not and say we did. Political discussions turn into nasty
flamewars very quickly. If you really insist on asking the question,
please mark it [OT] and add an explanation of the eight political
groups. The site was very sparse on information.
--
Adam Haun
ad...@mail.rit.edu
In Shoujo Russia, Sempai confesses to YOU!
The Wanderer
This is at least somewhat offtopic here, but...
1: Liberal (100%)
2: New Labour (89%)
3: Anarcho-syndicalist (74%)
4: Libertarian (60%)
5: Totalitarian (46%)
6: Authoritarian (33%)
7: Traditional Societies (30%)
8: Conservative (11%)
I'd note that several of the questions and/or answers are phrased in a
loaded manner, tilted in favour of the liberal side of the issue; this
could well indicate bias on the part of the survey designer(s), and
could also skew results.
--
The Wanderer
A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
Galen Musbach
I get:
1: Anarcho-syndicalist (100%)
2: Libertarian (96%)
3: Traditional Societies (89%)
4: Conservative (74%)
5: Liberal (43%)
6: New Labour (40%)
7: Totalitarian (21%)
8: Authoritarian (17%)
Now, some comments on the test
(My comments are indicated by "G>":
Vosem Chart Locator (United States version)
A SelectSmart.com® Selector
By Sean Teonanacatl (Search Google for other selectors by Sean
Teonanacatl)
The Vosem Chart places beliefs on three axes and into eight discrete
categories, representing eight different political ideologies. You
will be asked 25 questions about U.S. government, policy and causes
today. Find out what political philosophy you fall into based on what
you think in political fora and in your everyday culture and life.
This is based on the politics and political divisions of the United
States, so it may not accurately reflect the dominant leaning of
foreign test-takers in countries where the status quo is different.
Discover which of these eight boxes you fit into:
Posterior bottom right: conservative
Posterior top right: authoritarian
Anterior bottom right: the pattern of traditional societies (those
without social and technological change with each generation)
Anterior top right: totalitarian
Posterior bottom left: libertarian
Posterior top left: New Labour
Anterior bottom left: anarcho-syndicalist
Anterior top left: liberal
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
1. Should Social Security be dismantled or privatized?
Yes No Not sure
What priority do you place on your selection above?
High Medium Low
2. Should America end the welfare program?
3. Should the U.S. government provide free money for a college
education for all Americans, making grades 13-16 free just as grades
K-12 are?
G>Not only no, but hell no; I even support entrance exams
for high school. The decision to go to college should reflect
a commitment to learning; if it's free to everyone, even people
who can't pass a basic GED, what's the point?
4. Should taxes paid by Americans be used by the government
to provide foreign aid?
5. Should the United States create a socialized system of free
health care for all?
G>No. Free drugs are a bad thing.
6. Do you agree or disagree with the idea, popularly promised by
politicians these days, of using taxes to pay for prescription drugs
for seniors?
G>It would make the final year of high school more interesting.
7. Do you fundamentally agree or disagree with the following idea: If
the people worked together with the government and pooled their money
for grand projects of construction, exploration and service, we could
make great things happen?
G>The government will spend all the money that comes
within reach on pork; cooperative endeavor is a fine
idea, but why involve politicians in it?
8. Should marijuana be legalized?
a.No
b.It should be legal to possess it only, not to sell it.
c.Yes, and the government should assume a socialist ownership of the
establishments that sell it.
d.It should be saleable, and the government should help protect the
interests of the existing marijuana-selling businesses so they can
flourish and grow.
e.Businesses and individuals should sell it without any regulation,
inspection, liability, or accountability for product marketing and
representation.
f.It should be sold freely, but marijuana entrepreneurs shouldn’t be
allowed to lie about their products and hurt people by selling them
fake weed or not telling them that their weed is laced with a
different product.
g.This is completely a States’ Rights issue.
h. Not sure
G>Personally, I think Marijuana should be available
by prescription, and people with a prescription should
be allowed to possess it for personal use. It's insane
that people who are dying are being refused medication
that could ease their suffering because it's dangerous
to healthy people. But that isn't an option given here.
9. Should the voting age be lowered to 16?
10. Homosexuality is morally wrong.
11. Should racial profiling be:
Legal Illegal Not sure
G>Defined? What is racial profiling?
12. Such civil liberties as freedom of speech, the right to trial by
jury and not being detained without arraignment or trial, or freedom
of religion must be suspended in times of extreme war and national
emergency.
13. Should it be legal in the United States for a woman to go topless
at a beach?
No! It’s a threat to morals and an already threatened sense of
decency, and, besides, think of what the sight of those breasts is
going to do to little kids. I sure hope no one would have to see THAT
when they unsuspectingly visited a beach.
Yes. People need to stop being so uptight about the human body (and
besides, it’s not even a part involved in sexual reproduction!) --
people will have to learn to live with it instead of having us enforce
their objection into law. Grow up, America! Why should Americans be
less free than people in Sweden, where no one has a problem with it?
States’ Rights, all the way!!!!!
Not sure
G>How can this not be considered a States' Rights issue?
Nothing in the Powers of the Federal Government includes
a National Dress Code. Surely this is a matter for local ordinances.
14. Should people be allowed to use the police to interrogate, stop,
disperse or arrest (if necessary) people for activity, dress or
presence that is not illegal, but personally offends or "intimidates"
them, or makes them uncomfortable because it is unconventional?
Yes. I didn’t go out to see those kids with their body piercing, hemp
necklaces, exposed navels and spiky hair hanging in large groups with
their grating music! I want the police to help me because I’m too
intimidated to tell them myself. How free am I if I can’t feel safe
walking out of my own home in my own town? How are we going to get
people to behave normally if we can’t get the government to lend a
helping hand in making sure we all follow the same rules as one
society?
No. How would you like to stand there with a cop who won’t let you go,
worried sick about whether you’re going to get arrested for something?
No one should be harassed by government employees all the time for
things that aren’t even (and shouldn’t be) illegal! What ever happened
to this being a free country? Whoever said anything about needing to
be normal or inoffensive to everyone? People should be allowed to just
go about their life as they please with everything that isn’t illegal
being legal by default, instead of having one narrow accepted way of
doing everything and having everything else be illegal (or at least
ripe for suspicion) by default. Government has no place advancing
social norms. "They’re weird" is never a good reason to suspect
someone -- even Einstein and Galileo would be called weird by you
people! Umm, skateboarding is not a crime and all that.
Not sure
15. The United States government should be involved in the promotion
of Christianity and Christian values.
16. If the U.S. cut its budget on defense this year, I don’t even want
to think about what could happen.
17. Should an employer for a business be allowed to refuse to hire a
fully naturalized immigrant because of his immigration status?
18. Should the manager of a business that is open to the general
public be allowed to ask a customer who is not engaging in illegal or
physically destructive behavior to leave, for any reason the manager
wants to?
G>In my experience, the manager is most likely to ask someone
to leave because they are creating a "hostile" environment for
the other customers or employees; example, the girls who were
asked to leave an A&P shopping center because they were
wearing beach attire. Since the manager has no reason, he
cannot give one, and yet it is his duty to maintain order in the
establishment. In practice, a manager must have the right to
ask any customer to leave without any reason being given.
Locally, using profane or abusive language to a cashier will
get someone thrown out of a store; does that infringe on the
Right of Free Speach?
19. Should the manager of a business that is open to the general
public be allowed to ask a customer to leave because of his/her race?
G>Not if that race is human.
20. Should campaign contributions from corporations be banned?
21. Should Napster be punished for intellectual property violations?
22. The Invisible Hand of the market will:
Provide true freedom of choice, and allow the consumer public to
select from a rich diversity of products, encouraging all companies
through competition to be the best they can be at creating their
product
Spoil the quality and diversity of products through mega-corporations
and monopolies run amok, and stifle creativity with the domination of
a few easily advertised rich companies, all unwilling to experiment
because they’re too concerned about the bottom line
Not sure.
G>Remain forever undefined.
23. The extent of the activities of corporations must be curbed if it
will drive endangered species into extinction.
G> Snail Darters evolved to occupy the ecological niche
of a half-completed dam; if endangered species invent
themselves so readily, it's impossible to protect them. Or
do we distinguish between new species and old species?
I'd be happy with a rational ecological management program
that doesn't assume Nature Red of Tooth and Claw is a
benevolent self-aware deity.
24. Can an employer have his employees arrested for holding a strike?
G> Meaning what? Not coming to work? Destruction of
property? Assault and Battery? Arson? Peaceful Picketing?
25. Should the government provide funding for art that deals with the
erotic and scatological and would likely be considered pornographic?
Yes, they should fund all art, without judging it.
I support federal funding for art, but not that stuff with statues of
naked women splattered with blood and feces, or gay men having sex.
That kind of pornographic art should be illegal in this country, so we
don’t have to worry about whether the artists should work for (and be
redeemed for their work by) the government.
The government shouldn’t be subsidizing any art.
Art is pointless and subversive, and undermines a productive society.
If I were in charge of the country, I’d ban all art!
Not sure
-Galen
Captain Nerd
Shado...@aol.com (Dale) wrote:
1: Conservative (100%)
2: Libertarian (88%)
3: Traditional Societies (87%)
4: Anarcho-syndicalist (69%)
5: Authoritarian (65%)
6: New Labour (55%)
7: Totalitarian (48%)
8: Liberal (34%)
Had I taken it 20 years ago, Liberal would have been around 5,
and Conservative and Libertarian would have swapped.
Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
Rob Kelk
wrote:
>To get an idea of where everyone in here stands on the political
I couldn't take the quiz - I have no opinion on what happens in a
foreign country. Is there a similar quiz without the USA bias?
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> robkelk -at- jksrv -dot- com
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of
childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis, 1947
Jorge Pratt
"Colin Drake" <halk...@hotmail.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:6e59d40d.04012...@posting.google.com...
1. Anatoray Citizen (100%)
2. ACROSS Party Member (88%)
3. Ivalice Clansman (65%)
4. Poseidon Marine Shogun (60%)
5. Nyuchezu anti-establishment anarchist (45%)
6. Zeon Federation fundamentalist (34%)
7. Ohtorian (12%)
8. Himuro ritualist (5%)
The Zephyr
(All over the political spectrum.)
Dale
> Posterior top left: New Labour
What does New Labour mean anyway? America does not have a major Labour
Party and I thought that New Labour was the British equivlent of a New
Democrat. Basically a social liberal, economic moderate. Was this test
written by a brit trying to comment on US politics
>
\
>
> G>Not only no, but hell no; I even support entrance exams
> for high school. The decision to go to college should reflect
> a commitment to learning; if it's free to everyone, even people
> who can't pass a basic GED, what's the point?
I disagree. Entrance exams and tests are not measures of intelligence.
Many highly intellegent and successful people never did well in school
or on examinations. I think that entrance exams for high school would
ruin the lives of many kids because they are misfits or too awkward to
sit down and take a test. After all many of Eisensteins teachers
considered him a hopeless cause. The same goes for countless other
doctors, lawyers, writers, painters, dancers, researchers etc. You
only hurt people by limiting the amount of education they can get. If
a person doesn't do well in HS than they go onto a shitty university
or no university at all. Many very respected and powerful figures went
to universities which were less than stellar.
>
>
>
> 6. Do you agree or disagree with the idea, popularly promised by
> politicians these days, of using taxes to pay for prescription drugs
> for seniors?
>
> G>It would make the final year of high school more interesting.
Very funny.
>
>
> G>The government will spend all the money that comes
> within reach on pork; cooperative endeavor is a fine
> idea, but why involve politicians in it?
Can you see a non-government version of NASA, the National Institute
for Health, or the Center for Disease Controll existing. Most
politcians are merely ambitious schmucks but the people can cause them
to do great things.
>
>
> 11. Should racial profiling be:
> Legal Illegal Not sure
>
> G>Defined? What is racial profiling?
It usually happens with traffic cops. The big issue was that
interstate and state traffic cops were pulling over cars driven by
young, black men and searching them for illegal drugs. The theory was
that blacks are more likely to be drug dealers than anyone else so a
cop can and should pull over cars driven by young, black men if it
will help the war on drugs. The post 9/11 example is if cops pull over
cars driven by Arab men so they can search them for expolsives.
>
> G>How can this not be considered a States' Rights issue?
> Nothing in the Powers of the Federal Government includes
> a National Dress Code. Surely this is a matter for local ordinances.
It is a 10th Amendement issue for each state to decide. However many
people (of all political sides) willingly forget about the concept of
state rights if they feel an issue is important. Note: In my state of
New York, women can go topless anywhere as long as it is not used to
sell a product or service.
>
>
>
> G>In my experience, the manager is most likely to ask someone
> to leave because they are creating a "hostile" environment for
> the other customers or employees; example, the girls who were
> asked to leave an A&P shopping center because they were
> wearing beach attire.
Why does beach attire create a "hostile" enviroment. I think that
buisness have a right to put up signs which say "No Shirt, No Shoes,
No Service" but if they do not then it is their fault and the people
must be allowed to shop. Once in college, a bunch of my friends (guys)
put on dresses and went to the mall to see how long it would take
before sceruity guards kicked us out. Remarkably we were allowed to
stay until about 20 minutes before closing.
Since the manager has no reason, he
> cannot give one, and yet it is his duty to maintain order in the
> establishment. In practice, a manager must have the right to
> ask any customer to leave without any reason being given.
> Locally, using profane or abusive language to a cashier will
> get someone thrown out of a store; does that infringe on the
> Right of Free Speach?
>
No probably not. A store is a private buisness/property and the
owners can allow the managers to kick out whomever they please. As
long as a person is not kicked out on the basis of race, religion,
ethnicity, nationality, or gender. If a customer if threatening other
customers or workers than a manager has a right to kick the hostile
customer out. And probably should because loosing one customer costs
less than what would happen if someone was seriously hurt.
> G> Snail Darters evolved to occupy the ecological niche
> of a half-completed dam; if endangered species invent
> themselves so readily, it's impossible to protect them. Or
> do we distinguish between new species and old species?
> I'd be happy with a rational ecological management program
> that doesn't assume Nature Red of Tooth and Claw is a
> benevolent self-aware deity.
>
With the exception of enviromental terrorists I think most liberals
would support for idea. I don't think that oil companies should be
allowed to harm the Artic Wildlife Preserve and many endangered
animals for the sake of some small drops of oil. I am a firm believer
in the concept of public property which is off-limits to buisness
interests.
> 24. Can an employer have his employees arrested for holding a strike?
>
> G> Meaning what? Not coming to work? Destruction of
> property? Assault and Battery? Arson? Peaceful Picketing?
>
It was an old anti-union technique which isn't used anymore.
Employeers would call in the police and national guard to break-up
striking workers. It was done based upon property rights. Basically
that workers were trespassing on private property.
Rick
"Colin Drake" <halk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6e59d40d.04012...@posting.google.com...
I don't know how that liberal 34% got in there maybe that women allowed to
go topless question.
Rank Item Percent
1: Conservative (100%)
2: Libertarian (90%)
3: Traditional Societies (87%)
4: Anarcho-syndicalist (68%)
5: Authoritarian (65%)
6: New Labour (55%)
7: Totalitarian (48%)
8: Liberal 34%
Rick
"Jorge Pratt" <0070...@academ01.ccm.itesm.mx> wrote in message
news:bv1e68$narft$1...@ID-157144.news.uni-berlin.de...
Hey that should be against the law
all over the politcal spectrum indeed.
>
>
Galen Musbach
>Galen Musbach <musb...@xtn.net> wrote in message news:<p608101uljvvvq7fk...@4ax.com>...
>> On 25 Jan 2004 09:30:01 -0800, Shado...@aol.com (Dale) wrote:
>>
>.
(snip)
>> G>Not only no, but hell no; I even support entrance exams
>> for high school. The decision to go to college should reflect
>> a commitment to learning; if it's free to everyone, even people
>> who can't pass a basic GED, what's the point?
>
>I disagree. Entrance exams and tests are not measures of intelligence.
>Many highly intellegent and successful people never did well in school
>or on examinations. I think that entrance exams for high school would
>ruin the lives of many kids because they are misfits or too awkward to
>sit down and take a test. After all many of Eisensteins teachers
>considered him a hopeless cause. The same goes for countless other
>doctors, lawyers, writers, painters, dancers, researchers etc. You
>only hurt people by limiting the amount of education they can get. If
>a person doesn't do well in HS than they go onto a shitty university
>or no university at all. Many very respected and powerful figures went
>to universities which were less than stellar.
Einstein did badly in German schools because he was a Jew;
after his family moved to Switzerland, he was consistently at
the top of this class, despite it being more competitive.
I don't believe that standardized testing measures anything
more than a person's ability to take tests, either; it certainly
isn't a fair measure of merit.
However, as a graduate student in mathematics, I attempted
to tutor students in first year calculus who couldn't do basic
arithmetic, and it's impossible. Innumeracy is a disability, of
course, and it makes no more sense to forbid people who
can't do arithmetic from getting an education than it does to
exclude dyslexics because they can't read -- but neither should
they be given passing grades in courses for which they can't
do the work. They shouldn't even be in courses for which they
do not have the pre-requisite skills and knowledge.
My father dropped out of high school at 16, and when he
did enroll at college, he had to take several remedial classes
to improve his weaknesses. He worked hard in the railroad
industry to earn the money to go, and he despised the people
who were going to college on their parent's money and wasting
their time partying. I saw that myself when I attended college
on a military co-pay subsidized study program. The only way
"universal education" would work is if the students were
being compelled to actually study; since we live in a free
society, teachers use tests to evaluate the students instead.
It's not ideal, but educating people who have no interest
in learning is simply not possible within the limits of a free
society. No matter how much money is thrown at them.
After the State of Tennessee greatly reduced the Arts
and Music programs in public primary schools, the local
community college offered such classes on a private
enrolment basis. They've done a very fine production of
_Oliver Twist_, and also _A Midsummer Night's Dream_.
Most school plays tend to suck because the kids have
no interest in being there, but all the kids in the community
college program are there because they worked for it.
>>
>> G>The government will spend all the money that comes
>> within reach on pork; cooperative endeavor is a fine
>> idea, but why involve politicians in it?
>
>Can you see a non-government version of NASA, the National Institute
>for Health, or the Center for Disease Controll existing.
Like the Red Cross? Or the Salvation Army? Or the
World Health Organization?
CDC does have to be government, because it
requires the ability to impose quarantines.
>>
>
>>
>> 11. Should racial profiling be:
>> Legal Illegal Not sure
>>
>> G>Defined? What is racial profiling?
>
>It usually happens with traffic cops. The big issue was that
>interstate and state traffic cops were pulling over cars driven by
>young, black men and searching them for illegal drugs. The theory was
>that blacks are more likely to be drug dealers than anyone else so a
>cop can and should pull over cars driven by young, black men if it
>will help the war on drugs. The post 9/11 example is if cops pull over
>cars driven by Arab men so they can search them for expolsives.
...
How successful is it? If the arrest and conviction rate exceeds
63%, I'll allow it as reasonable cause. If it's less than 5%, I'm
opposed. If it's between those extremes, I consider it a policy
that should be subject to frequent review and evaluation.
(snip)
-Galen
Antonio E. Gonzalez
>Date: 1/25/2004 1:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <bv1e68$narft$1...@ID-157144.news.uni-berlin.de>
Thank you for bringing this on-topic, not to mention some well-needed humor!
- Vaughner
- "Well, thanks to the internet, I'm bored with sex."
- Philip J. Fry, "Futurama"
Ethan Hammond
>
> I'd note that several of the questions and/or answers are phrased in a
> loaded manner, tilted in favour of the liberal side of the issue; this
> could well indicate bias on the part of the survey designer(s), and
> could also skew results.
Yeah those questions were pretty obvious.
1. Conservative (100%)
2. Traditional Societies (73%)
3. Authoritarian (65%)
4. Libertarian (59%)
5. Totalitarian (48%)
6. Anarcho-syndicalist (43%)
7. New Labour (24%)
8. Liberal (9%)
If they had asked more questions about female
nudity I probably would have got a higher liberal
percentage. *nods nods*
--
All Purpose Cultural Randomness
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/apcr/index.html
Ethan Hammond
>
> 1: Conservative (100%)
> 2: Libertarian (88%)
> 3: Traditional Societies (87%)
> 4: Anarcho-syndicalist (69%)
> 5: Authoritarian (65%)
> 6: New Labour (55%)
> 7: Totalitarian (48%)
> 8: Liberal (34%)
*SHAKES CAPTAIN NERDS HAND*
> Had I taken it 20 years ago, Liberal would have been around 5,
> and Conservative and Libertarian would have swapped.
10 years ago I was more liberal, before we had 8 years of Clinton.
I wish this quiz had asked about abortion. I hate baby killing.
Ethan Hammond
>
> I don't know how that liberal 34% got in there maybe that women allowed to
> go topless question.
That one only got me 9% liberal. Is glad to see there are
a few conservatives on RAAM.
Dale
> However, as a graduate student in mathematics, I attempted
> to tutor students in first year calculus who couldn't do basic
> arithmetic, and it's impossible.
Okay I wasn't that bad at math but in high school my history, english,
art, and music grades were significantly higher than my math and
science grades (except Biology). I went to a small liberal arts
college to major in theatre. I also got rid of my math and science
requirement at college by taking Intro to Pyschology. By your
standards I would probably be not allowed to enter high school because
of my math and science skills. I suppose I am different for most of
fandom for not being into math and science but that's me. I went to a
very good college despite my mediocre showings in math and science
anyway.
Innumeracy is a disability, of
> course, and it makes no more sense to forbid people who
> can't do arithmetic from getting an education than it does to
> exclude dyslexics because they can't read -- but neither should
> they be given passing grades in courses for which they can't
> do the work. They shouldn't even be in courses for which they
> do not have the pre-requisite skills and knowledge.
There is a difference between not allowing them to go to high school
at all and not letting them go to high school until they are ready. I
don't not believe in artifical advancement which exists in Japanese
HS. It is possible to completely slack off in HS in Japan and still
get into a really good university if you get a good mark on the
Entrance Exams.
>
> After the State of Tennessee greatly reduced the Arts
> and Music programs in public primary schools, the local
> community college offered such classes on a private
> enrolment basis. They've done a very fine production of
> _Oliver Twist_, and also _A Midsummer Night's Dream_.
> Most school plays tend to suck because the kids have
> no interest in being there, but all the kids in the community
> college program are there because they worked for it.
Maybe at the elementary school level but at least at my middle and
high school, theatre was an extra-curricular activity only with a few
elective classes offered. Anyway I don't believe it helps kids to cut
out arts classes. If you want kids to have a well-balanced education,
it needs to include some art and music classes. It can't just be 80%
math and science with the remainder being for history, english, and
foreign language. The purpose of education is not to make kids be able
to get better paying jobs. The purpose of education is to make kids
well educated in wide range of subjects. A well-educated person is
going to be able to get a decent job if they want it. This is why I
always thought studying buisness as an undergraduate was unnecessary.
Most CEOs did not study buisness as undergrads. For example the CEO
for Hewlett-Packard studied the very useful subject of Mediveal
History and Philosophy.
>
> >
> >Can you see a non-government version of NASA, the National Institute
> >for Health, or the Center for Disease Controll existing.
> Like the Red Cross? Or the Salvation Army? Or the
> World Health Organization?
Isn't the WHO part on the United Nations? the NIH still does more
medical research than the Red cross and WHO.
>
> >>
> >> 11. Should racial profiling be:
> >> Legal Illegal Not sure
> >>
> >> G>Defined? What is racial profiling?
> >
> >It usually happens with traffic cops. The big issue was that
> >interstate and state traffic cops were pulling over cars driven by
> >young, black men and searching them for illegal drugs. The theory was
> >that blacks are more likely to be drug dealers than anyone else so a
> >cop can and should pull over cars driven by young, black men if it
> >will help the war on drugs. The post 9/11 example is if cops pull over
> >cars driven by Arab men so they can search them for expolsives.
> ...
> How successful is it? If the arrest and conviction rate exceeds
> 63%, I'll allow it as reasonable cause. If it's less than 5%, I'm
> opposed. If it's between those extremes, I consider it a policy
> that should be subject to frequent review and evaluation.
>
So if it is highly successful, the police should have the right to
search private property without a proper warrent?
Rick
There was one report of a New Jersey State trooper making arrests
of record amounts of drugs and getting commendations from the governor.
But 75% were black arrests and I think the only probable cause he used
was a criminal profile he used ie his gut instincts.
>
> (snip)
>
> -Galen
Rick
"Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:Qf3Rb.18231$6O4.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "Captain Nerd" <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
> >
> > 1: Conservative (100%)
> > 2: Libertarian (88%)
> > 3: Traditional Societies (87%)
> > 4: Anarcho-syndicalist (69%)
> > 5: Authoritarian (65%)
> > 6: New Labour (55%)
> > 7: Totalitarian (48%)
> > 8: Liberal (34%)
>
> *SHAKES CAPTAIN NERDS HAND*
>
> > Had I taken it 20 years ago, Liberal would have been around 5,
> > and Conservative and Libertarian would have swapped.
>
> 10 years ago I was more liberal, before we had 8 years of Clinton.
> I wish this quiz had asked about abortion. I hate baby killing.
>
> --
until
it's born don't you know.
Lena B Katz
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Dale wrote:
> Galen Musbach <musb...@xtn.net> wrote in message news:<p608101uljvvvq7fk...@4ax.com>...
> > On 25 Jan 2004 09:30:01 -0800, Shado...@aol.com (Dale) wrote:
> >
>
>
> > G>Not only no, but hell no; I even support entrance exams
> > for high school. The decision to go to college should reflect
> > a commitment to learning; if it's free to everyone, even people
> > who can't pass a basic GED, what's the point?
>
> I disagree. Entrance exams and tests are not measures of intelligence.
> Many highly intellegent and successful people never did well in school
> or on examinations. I think that entrance exams for high school would
> ruin the lives of many kids because they are misfits or too awkward to
> sit down and take a test. After all many of Eisensteins teachers
> considered him a hopeless cause. The same goes for countless other
> doctors, lawyers, writers, painters, dancers, researchers etc. You
> only hurt people by limiting the amount of education they can get. If
> a person doesn't do well in HS than they go onto a shitty university
> or no university at all. Many very respected and powerful figures went
> to universities which were less than stellar.
Mrfl. I don't care about exams, just so long as you make them relevant to
all the learning, and don't unfairly discriminate against people. This
means no multiple choice tests... and a fair amount of hands-on testing,
as opposed to "recite what we learned from the schoolmarm."
Oh, and make it relevant to what people would have learned outside of
school that may demonstrate maturity/ability to learn. (critical thinking
and planning skills are often critical for these excercises).
lena
Lena B Katz
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004, Galen Musbach wrote:
> On 25 Jan 2004 14:58:56 -0800, Shado...@aol.com (Dale) wrote:
>
> >Galen Musbach <musb...@xtn.net> wrote in message news:<p608101uljvvvq7fk...@4ax.com>...
> >> On 25 Jan 2004 09:30:01 -0800, Shado...@aol.com (Dale) wrote:
> >>
> >.
> (snip)
> >> G>Not only no, but hell no; I even support entrance exams
> >> for high school. The decision to go to college should reflect
> >> a commitment to learning; if it's free to everyone, even people
> >> who can't pass a basic GED, what's the point?
> >
> >I disagree. Entrance exams and tests are not measures of intelligence.
> >Many highly intellegent and successful people never did well in school
> >or on examinations. I think that entrance exams for high school would
> >ruin the lives of many kids because they are misfits or too awkward to
> >sit down and take a test. After all many of Eisensteins teachers
> >considered him a hopeless cause. The same goes for countless other
> >doctors, lawyers, writers, painters, dancers, researchers etc. You
> >only hurt people by limiting the amount of education they can get. If
> >a person doesn't do well in HS than they go onto a shitty university
> >or no university at all. Many very respected and powerful figures went
> >to universities which were less than stellar.
> Einstein did badly in German schools because he was a Jew;
> after his family moved to Switzerland, he was consistently at
> the top of this class, despite it being more competitive.
funny, the biography i read of him didn't even mention that... (course, i
stopped reading after about the first 500 pages).
> I don't believe that standardized testing measures anything
> more than a person's ability to take tests, either; it certainly
> isn't a fair measure of merit.
Is true. Know a guy who continually complains about getting a 1480 on the
SATs... because the only reason he got the rest wrong was because he kept
mixing up "B"s and "D"s.
> However, as a graduate student in mathematics, I attempted
> to tutor students in first year calculus who couldn't do basic
> arithmetic, and it's impossible. Innumeracy is a disability, of
> course, and it makes no more sense to forbid people who
> can't do arithmetic from getting an education than it does to
> exclude dyslexics because they can't read -- but neither should
> they be given passing grades in courses for which they can't
> do the work. They shouldn't even be in courses for which they
> do not have the pre-requisite skills and knowledge.
Dyscalcula is the disability. And it comes in all forms. I know people
who can't add and subtract in their heads... (I.e. the kind of people who
never learned the multiplication tables, and still can't do sevens because
they're hard to reduce to five's and one's). But they're still first rate
physicists, competent in not only calculus but other forms of higher math.
Just toss 'em a calculator and watch 'em roll!
People who can't read, even dyslexics, can generally be taught to read. I
think you're confusing a medical condition with inferior achievement.
Granted, sometimes they are concurrent, but they are by no means
identical.
Speaking of which... I'm looking for a science-fiction book on a 2nd to
third grade reading level, for a student of mine. Any suggestions would
be very well appreciated.
> It's not ideal, but educating people who have no interest
> in learning is simply not possible within the limits of a free
> society. No matter how much money is thrown at them.
Truedat. otoh, I find that many people, once they see what kind o' shit
they have to deal with without a degree... suddenly find themselves
wanting one pretty bad.
> After the State of Tennessee greatly reduced the Arts
> and Music programs in public primary schools, the local
> community college offered such classes on a private
> enrolment basis. They've done a very fine production of
> _Oliver Twist_, and also _A Midsummer Night's Dream_.
> Most school plays tend to suck because the kids have
> no interest in being there, but all the kids in the community
> college program are there because they worked for it.
school plays around where I was from were extracurricular. that meant all
the science nerds/jocks/active people did all of it.
> >> G>The government will spend all the money that comes
> >> within reach on pork; cooperative endeavor is a fine
> >> idea, but why involve politicians in it?
> >
> >Can you see a non-government version of NASA, the National Institute
> >for Health, or the Center for Disease Controll existing.
> Like the Red Cross? Or the Salvation Army? Or the
> World Health Organization?
*blink* you're looking at the salvation army? better just mention the
church.
and the WHO is a governmental organization!
> >> 11. Should racial profiling be:
> >> Legal Illegal Not sure
> >>
> >> G>Defined? What is racial profiling?
> >
> >It usually happens with traffic cops. The big issue was that
> >interstate and state traffic cops were pulling over cars driven by
> >young, black men and searching them for illegal drugs. The theory was
> >that blacks are more likely to be drug dealers than anyone else so a
> >cop can and should pull over cars driven by young, black men if it
> >will help the war on drugs. The post 9/11 example is if cops pull over
> >cars driven by Arab men so they can search them for expolsives.
> ...
> How successful is it? If the arrest and conviction rate exceeds
> 63%, I'll allow it as reasonable cause. If it's less than 5%, I'm
> opposed. If it's between those extremes, I consider it a policy
> that should be subject to frequent review and evaluation.
Really, they ought to just search everyone.
Lena
Lena B Katz
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Ethan Hammond wrote:
> "Captain Nerd" <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
> >
> > Had I taken it 20 years ago, Liberal would have been around 5,
> > and Conservative and Libertarian would have swapped.
>
> 10 years ago I was more liberal, before we had 8 years of Clinton.
> I wish this quiz had asked about abortion. I hate baby killing.
I'm actually quite partial to baby killing. Makes more sense than killing
humans, at any rate.
Lena
Daniel Marx
1: Anarcho-syndicalist (100%)
2: Libertarian (94%)
3: Traditional Societies (76%)
4: Liberal (66%)
5: New Labour (64%)
6: Conservative (61%)
7: Totalitarian (36%)
8: Authoritarian (29%)
Galen Musbach
>Galen Musbach <musb...@xtn.net> wrote in message news:<10k810h77p2f3fl4a...@4ax.com>...
>> On 25 Jan 2004 14:58:56 -0800, Shado...@aol.com (Dale) wrote:
>>
>
>> However, as a graduate student in mathematics, I attempted
>> to tutor students in first year calculus who couldn't do basic
>> arithmetic, and it's impossible.
>
>Okay I wasn't that bad at math but in high school my history, english,
>art, and music grades were significantly higher than my math and
>science grades (except Biology). I went to a small liberal arts
>college to major in theatre. I also got rid of my math and science
>requirement at college by taking Intro to Pyschology. By your
>standards I would probably be not allowed to enter high school
>because of my math and science skills.
Why? You can't pass a GED?
-Galen
Lena B Katz
INFO: To pass a GED, you need to know fractions, whole numbers, a bit of
algebra and some geometry.
Yes, this is all I'm allowed to teach.
What I learned in high school (_all_ of it) is for college.
Lena
Galen Musbach
Checking into it, I can find no support for my claim; rather:
http://learninfreedom.org/Nobel_hates_school.html
>
(snip)
>
>Dyscalcula is the disability. And it comes in all forms. I know people
>who can't add and subtract in their heads... (I.e. the kind of people who
>never learned the multiplication tables, and still can't do sevens because
>they're hard to reduce to five's and one's). But they're still first rate
>physicists, competent in not only calculus but other forms of higher math.
>Just toss 'em a calculator and watch 'em roll!
>
>People who can't read, even dyslexics, can generally be taught to read. I
>think you're confusing a medical condition with inferior achievement.
>Granted, sometimes they are concurrent, but they are by no means
>identical.
Yes. I object to giving full scholarships to people
who will not study, not those who have a learning
disability which requires additional work to overcome.
>
>Speaking of which... I'm looking for a science-fiction book on a 2nd to
>third grade reading level, for a student of mine. Any suggestions would
>be very well appreciated.
Robert Heinlein?
In 3rd grade, I was reading Burrough's _John Carter of Mars_
-Galen
Lena B Katz
*sputters* no! I did not mean what _you_ were reading in third grade...
but what is actually on a third grade level. The lady I'm teaching is in
her twenties. and dyslexic. she needs something _easy_, otherwise known
as without large words (she needs a confidence builder right now...).
Lena
Galen Musbach
Most of the SF I'm likely to think of was written for teenage
boys; it's not really a genre aimed at 9 year olds. Have you
considered manga? Planetes is good.
-Galen
Galen Musbach
wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:47:09 -0500 (EST), Lena B Katz
><l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>> >
>>> >Speaking of which... I'm looking for a science-fiction book on a 2nd to
>>> >third grade reading level, for a student of mine. Any suggestions would
>>> >be very well appreciated.
>>>
>>> Robert Heinlein?
Moon Is a Harsh Mistress
Glory Road
Red Planet
Rolling Stones
Have Space Suit, Will Travel
Space Cadet
Citizen of the Galaxy
Tunnel in the Sky
Starman Jones
Rocket Ship Galileo
Some of his later works are confusing, but his
stories for teens should be readable (if you can find them).
>>>
>>> In 3rd grade, I was reading Burrough's _John Carter of Mars_
>>
>>*sputters* no! I did not mean what _you_ were reading in third grade...
>>but what is actually on a third grade level. The lady I'm teaching is in
>>her twenties. and dyslexic. she needs something _easy_, otherwise known
>>as without large words (she needs a confidence builder right now...).
>>
>>Lena
>
>Most of the SF I'm likely to think of was written for teenage
>boys; it's not really a genre aimed at 9 year olds. Have you
>considered manga? Planetes is good.
Or maybe Alien Nine or Oh! My Goddess would be better.
>
I've asked my mother, who works with the local
church library, and she recommends:
_The Tale of Despereaux_, by Kate DiCamillo
(Ages 6-12).
It's about a mouse who gets exiled into the
basement, but goes on to become a hero?
I haven't read it.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/subjects/9-12/9-12_cds2.asp?PID=3058&userid=2Y14A8YKW9
Barnes and Noble also recommends the
Narnia Chronicles of CS Lewis
Mark Twain's Adventures of Tom Sawyer/Huckleberry Finn,
Charlotte's Web
Treasure Island
Stuart Little
The Children's Homer
L. Frank Baum's OZ series
Peter Pan
-Galen
Eric Schwartz
> *sputters* no! I did not mean what _you_ were reading in third grade...
> but what is actually on a third grade level. The lady I'm teaching is in
> her twenties. and dyslexic. she needs something _easy_, otherwise known
> as without large words (she needs a confidence builder right now...).
Some of Heinlein's juvies, with appropriate filtering, should be okay.
Also, check out some of Clarke's shorts that he wrote for the juvie
market. ISTR somebody producing a kid-friendly take on Asimov's _I,
Robot_. Also, there are a lot of jokes and silliness in Douglas
Adams' Hitchhiker books, but the actual language in them is relatively
accessible for SF.
I can't recall offhand what is considered "third grade level", because
I think I passed it when I was four. (Not bragging; I just don't
remember that far back.) Maybe if you gave some examples it would
help, but you're probably better off asking on rasfw, where they Do
This Sort Of Thing.
-=Eric
--
Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare.
-- Blair Houghton.
Adam Haun
wrote:
>On 25 Jan 2004 14:58:56 -0800, Shado...@aol.com (Dale) wrote:
>
>>Galen Musbach <musb...@xtn.net> wrote in message news:<p608101uljvvvq7fk...@4ax.com>...
>>> On 25 Jan 2004 09:30:01 -0800, Shado...@aol.com (Dale) wrote:
>>>
>>.
>(snip)
>>> G>Not only no, but hell no; I even support entrance exams
>>> for high school. The decision to go to college should reflect
>>> a commitment to learning; if it's free to everyone, even people
>>> who can't pass a basic GED, what's the point?
An educated populace is very important to a democracy. Tyrants feed on
ignorance.
>However, as a graduate student in mathematics, I attempted
>to tutor students in first year calculus who couldn't do basic
>arithmetic, and it's impossible. Innumeracy is a disability, of
>course, and it makes no more sense to forbid people who
>can't do arithmetic from getting an education than it does to
>exclude dyslexics because they can't read -- but neither should
>they be given passing grades in courses for which they can't
>do the work. They shouldn't even be in courses for which they
>do not have the pre-requisite skills and knowledge.
The problems with math education in America are far broader than what
you make them out to be. You can't just write off everyone who can't
do arithmetic as being "innumerate". In addition to the often poor
quality of math teachers themselves, there is a huge cultural force
pushing people to give up on math at an early age. Remember the "Math
is hard!" Barbie? How many times have you heard "Oh, I'm just not a
math person..." as a reason for failure? How many of the people who
say that are actually *incapable* of learning the material? Compare
what would happen to someone who claims to not be a "reading person".
I have no doubt that there are people who have a mathematical
equivalent of dyslexia. But dyslexics are far rarer than people who do
poorly at math. Consider how much of mathematics is bound up in
fundamental human abilities -- the abilities to reason, to visualize,
to abstract. People who fail math classes are quite capable of using
these skills.
A person who is incapable of doing elementary and middle school level
arithmetic should not be in a normal course sequence at all.
Social promotion is a bad thing, but eliminating it will not make
people magically learn the course material.
>My father dropped out of high school at 16, and when he
>did enroll at college, he had to take several remedial classes
>to improve his weaknesses. He worked hard in the railroad
>industry to earn the money to go, and he despised the people
>who were going to college on their parent's money and wasting
>their time partying. I saw that myself when I attended college
>on a military co-pay subsidized study program. The only way
>"universal education" would work is if the students were
>being compelled to actually study; since we live in a free
>society, teachers use tests to evaluate the students instead.
>It's not ideal, but educating people who have no interest
>in learning is simply not possible within the limits of a free
>society. No matter how much money is thrown at them.
It is certainly possible to give people who have no interest in
learning a set of basic skills. Whether or not that's a task for
college is debatable, though. I would like a high school diploma to
mean more than it does now, but I don't think that will be possible in
the near future.
>After the State of Tennessee greatly reduced the Arts
>and Music programs in public primary schools, the local
>community college offered such classes on a private
>enrolment basis. They've done a very fine production of
>_Oliver Twist_, and also _A Midsummer Night's Dream_.
>Most school plays tend to suck because the kids have
>no interest in being there, but all the kids in the community
>college program are there because they worked for it.
I don't know what kind of high school you went to, but in mine such
extracurricular activities were purely optional. People in my theatre
group were expected to work, and anyone who didn't was no longer a
welcome part of the company. For many people, such activies are the
most enjoyable(and sometimes the most educational) part of high
school.
--
Adam Haun
ad...@mail.rit.edu
In Shoujo Russia, Sempai confesses to YOU!
Rick
"Lena B Katz" <l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58-035....@unix14.andrew.cmu.edu...
If you want to see the budget deficit balloon then we should search
everyone but it's really a waste of resources. If there is a rash of
molestation's
at say a Lutheran church you don't go looking in a Jewish temple for
suspects.
sanjian
> "The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote in message
1: Conservative (100%)
2: Libertarian (97%)
3: Traditional Societies (94%)
4: Anarcho-syndicalist (75%)
5: Authoritarian (59%)
6: New Labour (57%)
7: Totalitarian (44%)
8: Liberal (34%)
It seems, of the conservatives, I've got the highest liberal score.. Though,
I've got to wonder how I can get a near perfect Libertarian score, and such
a high totalitarian score... enforced freedom? Most likely, the scores are
normalized so that the highest score is 100% and the other are adjusted
appropriately.
Still, there were some serious problems with the test. Take for instance
the question on whether or not homosexuality was immoral. I marked yes to
that one, but I would make no to it being illegal and yes to civil unions.
It can't be assumed that, just because someone thinks something is wrong,
they think it should be illegal.
sanjian
> "Captain Nerd" <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
>>
>> 1: Conservative (100%)
>> 2: Libertarian (88%)
>> 3: Traditional Societies (87%)
>> 4: Anarcho-syndicalist (69%)
>> 5: Authoritarian (65%)
>> 6: New Labour (55%)
>> 7: Totalitarian (48%)
>> 8: Liberal (34%)
>
> *SHAKES CAPTAIN NERDS HAND*
>
>> Had I taken it 20 years ago, Liberal would have been around 5,
>> and Conservative and Libertarian would have swapped.
>
> 10 years ago I was more liberal, before we had 8 years of Clinton.
> I wish this quiz had asked about abortion. I hate baby killing.
While I'm dead-set against abortion-on-demand... is there really a need to
start a debate on that right now? Neh?
sanjian
> "Rick" <videoj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> I don't know how that liberal 34% got in there maybe that women
>> allowed to go topless question.
>
> That one only got me 9% liberal. Is glad to see there are
> a few conservatives on RAAM.
Hey! I've been the resident right-wing conservative whacko for quite a
while here! There are still people who hate me for things I did back in '97
(and, yes, I was a jackass back then)!
Blade
news:33kRb.116$Yj.111@lakeread02:
1: Liberal (100%)
2: New Labour (79%)
3: Anarcho-syndicalist (77%)
4: Totalitarian (58%)
5: Libertarian (53%)
6: Traditional Societies (42%)
7: Authoritarian (34%)
8: Conservative (14%)
Also unsurprising. I am nothing if not opinionated. And I agree that
the test is flawed. Several of the questions were very leadingly worded,
and several assumed that only two or three positions were possible when
in fact none of them very accurately represented what I would have
chosen. At least I could mark those as low priority. But I've seen many
much better political-alignment tests.
Blade
*******
Also Known As: Chris McNeil, The Annoying Jerk, The Enemy of Democracy,
"That Guy That Can't Write A Lunch Menu Without Pantyhose Tarou Being In
It Somewhere"
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com
- Bigger. Better. Badder. Back. Oh yeah.
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/kaliashrine.htm
- Worship the Cute Evil that is Kalia! Or else!
"Welcome to the Internet!
Where everyone has an opinion, so you don't have to!"
Kris Overstreet
wrote:
>To get an idea of where everyone in here stands on the political
>spectrum, I think it'd be great if we could all take a political quiz
>and post our results.
A: Off topic.
B: Loaded.
C: My results:
1: Anarcho-syndicalist (100%)
2: Libertarian (85%)
3: Traditional Societies (64%)
4: Liberal (61%)
5: New Labour (49%)
6: Conservative (47%)
7: Totalitarian (24%)
8: Authoritarian (9%)
I'd probably have 100% Libertarian if I hadn't answered 'unsure' when
presented with the 'Invisible Hand' v. 'Crush Corporations' question.
I sure as hell ain't an anarcho-syndicalist (trans. "violent
revolutionary who believes in individual freedom but total government
economic control and abolition of property").
Redneck
Kris Overstreet
<esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I wish this quiz had asked about abortion. I hate baby killing.
I wish this quiz had asked about self-defense. I love guns.
Redneck
Ethan Hammond
>
> > That one only got me 9% liberal. Is glad to see there are
> > a few conservatives on RAAM.
>
> Hey! I've been the resident right-wing conservative whacko for quite a
> while here! There are still people who hate me for things I did back in
'97
> (and, yes, I was a jackass back then)!
I have been posting here since April 1997 using the same email, but my
memory
sucks so I have no idea what you did.
Ethan Hammond
> the question on whether or not homosexuality was immoral. I marked yes to
> that one, but I would make no to it being illegal and yes to civil unions.
> It can't be assumed that, just because someone thinks something is wrong,
> they think it should be illegal.
Or the one about should a manager be able to kick anyone out of his store.
I marked yes to that one, but no to the one about a manager kicking someone
out of there store because of race. Of course if they can kick anyone out
of
the store, why does it matter what race they are.
Ethan Hammond
> until it's born don't you know.
My problem is and it is a pretty original one. The dad has no
say in abortion. And why do only guys have to sign up
for selective service. I want everything to be gender
equal, EQUAL!!!! *SHAKES FIST*
--
Ethan Hammond
> > I wish this quiz had asked about abortion. I hate baby killing.
>
> I'm actually quite partial to baby killing. Makes more sense than killing
> humans, at any rate.
O.o;;;; ?ż?ż It is killing humans.
Ethan Hammond
> > I wish this quiz had asked about abortion. I hate baby killing.
>
> While I'm dead-set against abortion-on-demand... is there really a need to
> start a debate on that right now? Neh?
I wasn't starting a debate. Although the nature of my posting status may
start one. I was merely noting it as an issue that was left off the test.
Ethan Hammond
> algebra and some geometry.
>
> Yes, this is all I'm allowed to teach.
>
> What I learned in high school (_all_ of it) is for college.
It is?
Ethan Hammond
>
> >I wish this quiz had asked about abortion. I hate baby killing.
>
> I wish this quiz had asked about self-defense. I love guns.
There is another issue that was left off the quiz. I hate over
zealous gun control.
Rob Kelk
<red...@wlpcomics.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:23:28 GMT, "Ethan Hammond"
><esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
<snip>
>I wish this quiz had asked about self-defense. I love guns.
Do you really, or do you just say that to get them into your bed? <vbg>
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> robkelk -at- jksrv -dot- com
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of
childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis, 1947
Lena B Katz
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Adam Haun wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 19:49:37 -0500, Galen Musbach <musb...@xtn.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On 25 Jan 2004 14:58:56 -0800, Shado...@aol.com (Dale) wrote:
> >
> >>Galen Musbach <musb...@xtn.net> wrote in message news:<p608101uljvvvq7fk...@4ax.com>...
> >>> On 25 Jan 2004 09:30:01 -0800, Shado...@aol.com (Dale) wrote:
> >>>
> >>.
> >(snip)
> >>> G>Not only no, but hell no; I even support entrance exams
> >>> for high school. The decision to go to college should reflect
> >>> a commitment to learning; if it's free to everyone, even people
> >>> who can't pass a basic GED, what's the point?
>
> An educated populace is very important to a democracy. Tyrants feed on
> ignorance.
nah... tyrants feed on laziness. Just look at any autocracy...
> >However, as a graduate student in mathematics, I attempted
> >to tutor students in first year calculus who couldn't do basic
> >arithmetic, and it's impossible. Innumeracy is a disability, of
> >course, and it makes no more sense to forbid people who
> >can't do arithmetic from getting an education than it does to
> >exclude dyslexics because they can't read -- but neither should
> >they be given passing grades in courses for which they can't
> >do the work. They shouldn't even be in courses for which they
> >do not have the pre-requisite skills and knowledge.
>
> The problems with math education in America are far broader than what
> you make them out to be. You can't just write off everyone who can't
> do arithmetic as being "innumerate". In addition to the often poor
> quality of math teachers themselves, there is a huge cultural force
> pushing people to give up on math at an early age. Remember the "Math
> is hard!" Barbie?
I remember in about fifth grade, I learned that everyone hated math. And
so, when people asked which subject I hated most, I said math. I was damn
good at math, but I'd never admit that.
> How many times have you heard "Oh, I'm just not a
> math person..." as a reason for failure? How many of the people who
> say that are actually *incapable* of learning the material? Compare
> what would happen to someone who claims to not be a "reading person".
Most people go white at the prospect of math. particularly the prospect of
teaching math. but most of it is memorization and learning how to use the
stuff you've done before in new situations.
> I have no doubt that there are people who have a mathematical
> equivalent of dyslexia. But dyslexics are far rarer than people who do
> poorly at math. Consider how much of mathematics is bound up in
> fundamental human abilities -- the abilities to reason, to visualize,
> to abstract. People who fail math classes are quite capable of using
> these skills.
Sometimes... there is a whole gradient of learning problems... and a good
deal of people with problems in math have at least learning difficulties
with visualization.
> A person who is incapable of doing elementary and middle school level
> arithmetic should not be in a normal course sequence at all.
Despite the fact that such a person may be quite capable of getting a
college degree? Bah! Simply because one has weaknesses in certain areas
does not prevent one from compensating with others.
lena
Lena B Katz
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Ethan Hammond wrote:
> "Lena B Katz" <l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
> >
> > > 10 years ago I was more liberal, before we had 8 years of Clinton.
> > > I wish this quiz had asked about abortion. I hate baby killing.
> >
> > I'm actually quite partial to baby killing. Makes more sense than killing
> > humans, at any rate.
>
> O.o;;;; ?ż?ż It is killing humans.
not by the psychological definition of a human. now, I don't have my
morality textbook handy (took a medical ethics class once)... but I do
know that much.
lena
Kris Overstreet
<esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>My problem is and it is a pretty original one. The dad has no
>say in abortion. And why do only guys have to sign up
>for selective service. I want everything to be gender
>equal, EQUAL!!!! *SHAKES FIST*
If you want true gender equality, I suggest the following two-step
program:
(1) Give birth.
(2) Notify your Congressman.
}:-{D
Redneck
Adam Haun
<l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>> An educated populace is very important to a democracy. Tyrants feed on
>> ignorance.
>
>nah... tyrants feed on laziness. Just look at any autocracy...
Okay, that too. :)
>> I have no doubt that there are people who have a mathematical
>> equivalent of dyslexia. But dyslexics are far rarer than people who do
>> poorly at math. Consider how much of mathematics is bound up in
>> fundamental human abilities -- the abilities to reason, to visualize,
>> to abstract. People who fail math classes are quite capable of using
>> these skills.
>
>Sometimes... there is a whole gradient of learning problems... and a good
>deal of people with problems in math have at least learning difficulties
>with visualization.
True, I am overgeneralizing the issue. But the sheer scope of problems
in math education implies that other influences dominate.
>> A person who is incapable of doing elementary and middle school level
>> arithmetic should not be in a normal course sequence at all.
>
>Despite the fact that such a person may be quite capable of getting a
>college degree? Bah! Simply because one has weaknesses in certain areas
>does not prevent one from compensating with others.
Remember, I'm talking about elementary school level math. A person who
has a disability that prevents them from doing arithmetic wouldn't get
much out of a normal high school algebra class, and thus would need
specialized math education.
sanjian
> On 25 Jan 2004 14:58:56 -0800, Shado...@aol.com (Dale) wrote:
> However, as a graduate student in mathematics, I attempted
> to tutor students in first year calculus who couldn't do basic
> arithmetic, and it's impossible. Innumeracy is a disability, of
> course, and it makes no more sense to forbid people who
> can't do arithmetic from getting an education than it does to
> exclude dyslexics because they can't read -- but neither should
Umm... many of us lysdexics can read very well, thank you very much.
Lena B Katz
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Adam Haun wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:38:25 -0500 (EST), Lena B Katz
> <l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>
> >Sometimes... there is a whole gradient of learning problems... and a good
> >deal of people with problems in math have at least learning difficulties
> >with visualization.
>
> True, I am overgeneralizing the issue. But the sheer scope of problems
> in math education implies that other influences dominate.
some of it is truly just math-fear. you haven't seen people standing
paralyzed at a blackboard, unable to think. I have. They aren't
everyone, though.
> >> A person who is incapable of doing elementary and middle school level
> >> arithmetic should not be in a normal course sequence at all.
> >
> >Despite the fact that such a person may be quite capable of getting a
> >college degree? Bah! Simply because one has weaknesses in certain areas
> >does not prevent one from compensating with others.
>
> Remember, I'm talking about elementary school level math. A person who
> has a disability that prevents them from doing arithmetic wouldn't get
> much out of a normal high school algebra class, and thus would need
> specialized math education.
*snort* just, make sure that specialized doesn't mean slower. A kid that
can do calculus on the back of his hand, but who still doesn't know the
7's in the multiplication table!
'course, he never learned nothing from anyone except himself. in
anything.
Lena
Rick
"Adam Haun" <ad...@mail.rit.edu> wrote in message
news:4016ecb8...@news.houston.sbcglobal.net...
Wouldn't you say one of the reasons we have a world class college and
University system is competition. And if that's true than why don't our high
school or elementary schools or both also compete?
Rick
"Ethan Hammond" <esha...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:ToqRb.118824$6y6.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "Rick" <videoj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >
> > Well it's just a blob of tissue matter or something leeching of the host
> > until it's born don't you know.
>
> My problem is and it is a pretty original one. The dad has no
> say in abortion. And why do only guys have to sign up
> for selective service. I want everything to be gender
> equal, EQUAL!!!! *SHAKES FIST*
Unfortunatly it's usually the man who's pushing for the abortion.
Rick
"Kris Overstreet" <red...@wlpcomics.com> wrote in message
news:a0fd10p8k20pq3ssc...@4ax.com...
A liberal woman is always talking about the babaric army killing
innocent women and children. But she probably has had an abortion
like woopy goldberg who if I'm not mistaken has had 3! And the number
one gender being aborted in china is you guessed it baby girls.
> }:-{D
>
> Redneck
>
>
Rick
If thats true if a pregnant women driving home from work gets into
an accident and dies and the other driver was drunk he could get
charged for 2 counts of murder. Psychological definition of a human
indeed what do you think a pregnant women is going to deliver her
laundry.
>
> lena
Adam Haun
wrote:
>Wouldn't you say one of the reasons we have a world class college and
>University system is competition. And if that's true than why don't our high
>school or elementary schools or both also compete?
I don't know if I'd necessarily say that. There are plenty of third
rate colleges out there, and plenty of first rate high schools. The
difference is that *low* performing high schools make headlines, while
*high* performing universities do. You'll also note that you hear more
about research than about a university's research than the quality of
its teaching.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "compete". Do you mean give people
a choice of what school to attend? That choice already exists, in the
form of private schools and(in my former district) the option to apply
to different public high schools via magnet programs. Unfortunately,
both of these still allow "bad" schools to exist, only now they're
filled with either couldn't afford or didn't quality for other
options. Not the best learning environment.
Competition works best when other factors don't get in the way of
"product" selection. It is quite often the case that quality is very
low on the priority list(another way of looking at this is to say that
the definition of quality varies). For instance, with schools you have
a number of concerns:
* Location - Is the school located close to the student? If not, is
there convenient busing(sp?) available? Is the school in a nice
neighborhood? There are only so many places you can put a school.
* Size - Does the school have thousands of students? Hundreds? Dozens?
This can severely affect the social atmosphere of the school, among
other things. Remember Columbine?
* Price - More an issue at the university level. Financial aid is
often scarce, and not everyone can afford a $40k/yr tuition.
* College prep - Does a high school offer advanced classes that will
look good on a college application? Good grades in AP courses are
coveted regardless of what is actually learned in the course.[1]
So you see that there isn't really a way to pin down exactly what
makes a school good.
To be honest, the thought of privatizing education(as you seem to
suggest) frightens me greatly. Corporations are far better at
influencing people's minds than the government. Think about how warped
people who come out of religious private schools can be[2], and
realize that the Coca-Cola Academy will be much, much worse.
Our school system would improve automatically if people valued
education as a whole. Unfortunately, it seems that most people do not.
This problem will either get worse or go away on its own, but I can't
think of a way to force the issue. I wish I could. Think of all that
we could accomplish if our students works as hard as Japanese students
did. They might even pick up some critical thinking along the way! Now
there's a novel thought. :)
[1] Don't you *dare* respond with some nonsense like "Well, you don't
learn anything in high school anyway." That's a load of crap. High
school is exactly what you make of it -- no more, and no less.
[2] There's a reason Britney Spears dresses like a Catholic
schoolgirl, and it's not to look innocent.
The Wanderer
> A liberal woman is always talking about the babaric army killing
> innocent women and children. But she probably has had an abortion
Dude.
Generalize much?
--
The Wanderer
A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
Lena B Katz
you mean you've never heard of quiz bowl/ science olympiad/ or football?
//not in favor of self-selection of elementary schools//
Lena
Lena B Katz
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Rick wrote:
> a liberal woman is always talking about barbaric armies killing
> innocent women and children.
Why bother talking about that? Talk about people raped so cruely that the
walls between their vagina and colon have ripped open. These are people
who can no longer control their bodily functions, and to make matters
worse, are thrown out of their homes by their men for the crime of getting
raped.
Cry for them. Murder at least is quick.
If you think most women in america have abortions... you're sadly
mistaken.
Lena
Lena B Katz
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Rick wrote:
>
> "Lena B Katz" <l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.58-035....@unix15.andrew.cmu.edu...
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Ethan Hammond wrote:
> >
> > > "Lena B Katz" <l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > > 10 years ago I was more liberal, before we had 8 years of Clinton.
> > > > > I wish this quiz had asked about abortion. I hate baby killing.
> > > >
> > > > I'm actually quite partial to baby killing. Makes more sense than
> killing
> > > > humans, at any rate.
> > >
> > > O.o;;;; ?ż?ż It is killing humans.
> >
> > not by the psychological definition of a human. now, I don't have my
> > morality textbook handy (took a medical ethics class once)... but I do
> > know that much.
>
> If thats true if a pregnant women driving home from work gets into
> an accident and dies and the other driver was drunk he could get
> charged for 2 counts of murder.
You show some serious inability to make sense. If what is true? Yes, I
do understand the legal definition of a human. I'm _not_ talking about
that one. And you can make a decent ethical argument for trying to
preserve the lives of potential humans... just _not_ at the expense of
actual humans' life or time.
> Psychological definition of a human
> indeed what do you think a pregnant women is going to deliver her
> laundry.
A potential human. Give the poor baby a few years, and he will (probably,
but not always) become a human.
Lena
Ethan Hammond
Even in California they are charging Scott Peterson with two counts of
murder. One for his wife and one for his unborn son.
Ethan Hammond
> >say in abortion. And why do only guys have to sign up
> >for selective service. I want everything to be gender
> >equal, EQUAL!!!! *SHAKES FIST*
>
> If you want true gender equality, I suggest the following two-step
> program:
>
> (1) Give birth.
>
> (2) Notify your Congressman.
But I don't have a womb.
Ethan Hammond
> > say in abortion. And why do only guys have to sign up
> > for selective service. I want everything to be gender
> > equal, EQUAL!!!! *SHAKES FIST*
>
> Unfortunatly it's usually the man who's pushing for the abortion.
That dosen't surprise me, but it does dissapoint me.
sanjian
Wow, so full of broad generalizations.
> To be honest, the thought of privatizing education(as you seem to
> suggest) frightens me greatly. Corporations are far better at
> influencing people's minds than the government. Think about how warped
> people who come out of religious private schools can be[2], and
About as warped as those who come out of public schools. Except that they
may have a religious bias, as opposed to a secular bias. If that's a crime
in your eyes, I guess you'll just have to deal with it.
> realize that the Coca-Cola Academy will be much, much worse.
How's that? Oooh, are we going to all be brainwashed and go out to kill
Pepsi drinkers (not a bad policy even without the brainwashing)? If you're
going to go for the FUD approach, you need to create a scene to visualize,
first. Otherwise, your assertion that private schools are bad just doesn't
have anything to stick to. Think of the L.B.J. "Daisy" ad, or maybe the
"Elect Bush, and a black church burns" commercial.
Seriously, though, you ensure us that a corporate-run school would be a bad
thing, but give us no supporting arguments, except to draw a poor parallel
to a biased opinion regarding schools that actually perform above the
average.
> Our school system would improve automatically if people valued
> education as a whole. Unfortunately, it seems that most people do not.
Half-right. Having people value education is a very important piece of the
puzzle. Most people in the US do value it, but have no clue as to how it
works. Plus, you've still got idiotic trends in pop/counter-culture that
hang on long after they should have been dead. How many times do we see
people complain about the miserable state of education one minute, then turn
around give a "right on!" to The Wall? How are the schools supposed to do
their jobs when any attempt to educate the students is automatically
considered oppression.
Ok, so you're three-quarters right.
> This problem will either get worse or go away on its own, but I can't
> think of a way to force the issue. I wish I could. Think of all that
> we could accomplish if our students works as hard as Japanese students
You mean students who are too burned out to actually do any studying in
college? Even japan is realizing that the old system isn't quite as good as
they thought.
> did. They might even pick up some critical thinking along the way! Now
> there's a novel thought. :)
Now, I didn't attend school in Japan, but from what I've heard by way of
those who did, critical thinking is about the last thing they learned in the
academic gauntlet. What they did learn was pure rote memorization. Now,
I'm all for rote, and it does have it's place (ie, multiplication tables),
but if that's the only skill a student is learning... we're not only doing
them a disservice, but we're screwing them, intellectually.
It's once been said that the difference between an american and japanese
engineering college is that the Japanese professor would force his students
to learn the maximum allowable tensile stresses of various metals at room
temperature on the first day. The american professor would say "the limits
are all listed in a book, and you darn well better look them up when you
work on a project."
Lena B Katz
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004, sanjian wrote:
> Adam Haun wrote:
>
> Wow, so full of broad generalizations.
We're talking about a country bigger than Europe('k, maybe others are
talking about their countries too... but forgive my ignorance, please)...
did you expect anything less than generalizations? Nonetheless, these are
blatantly insubstantial.
> > To be honest, the thought of privatizing education(as you seem to
> > suggest) frightens me greatly. Corporations are far better at
> > influencing people's minds than the government. Think about how warped
> > people who come out of religious private schools can be[2], and
>
> About as warped as those who come out of public schools. Except that they
> may have a religious bias, as opposed to a secular bias. If that's a crime
> in your eyes, I guess you'll just have to deal with it.
Does anyone else know someone who went to a religious school that wasn't
their religion? I knew a Jew who went to Catholic school.
> > realize that the Coca-Cola Academy will be much, much worse.
>
> How's that? Oooh, are we going to all be brainwashed and go out to kill
> Pepsi drinkers (not a bad policy even without the brainwashing)? If you're
> going to go for the FUD approach, you need to create a scene to visualize,
> first. Otherwise, your assertion that private schools are bad just doesn't
> have anything to stick to. Think of the L.B.J. "Daisy" ad, or maybe the
> "Elect Bush, and a black church burns" commercial.
>
> Seriously, though, you ensure us that a corporate-run school would be a bad
> thing, but give us no supporting arguments, except to draw a poor parallel
> to a biased opinion regarding schools that actually perform above the
> average.
I'm not against corporate schooling, per se. But I do think that
self-selection of school is a pretty poor idea. If we let people choose
where they go to school, they'll choose to be among people who think like
themselves. Just the same cliques you had in high school, with one
critical difference: they won't get the exposure to other cliques. I'm
not so naive as to think that you can legislate friendships... but I do
know that you can easily create situations where friendships are unlikely
to occur. And I know that fragile friendships are all that saves us from
intolerance and bigotry.
> > Our school system would improve automatically if people valued
> > education as a whole. Unfortunately, it seems that most people do not.
>
> Half-right. Having people value education is a very important piece of the
> puzzle. Most people in the US do value it, but have no clue as to how it
> works.
Most teachers don't have any idea how it works. I was friends with most
of my high school teachers, and only one or two of them really had the
wisdom to teach anything outside of their subject material.
> Plus, you've still got idiotic trends in pop/counter-culture that
> hang on long after they should have been dead. How many times do we see
> people complain about the miserable state of education one minute, then turn
> around give a "right on!" to The Wall? How are the schools supposed to do
> their jobs when any attempt to educate the students is automatically
> considered oppression.
Please. A true teacher gives questions, and not answers. A true teacher
teaches kids how to think. (I only know one, and he's an illtempered coot
to boot, but still worth hanging around.).
The Wall rebels against many things, but not education, exactly. Just the
manufactured, robotic nature it takes in our society.
> > did. They might even pick up some critical thinking along the way! Now
> > there's a novel thought. :)
>
> Now, I didn't attend school in Japan, but from what I've heard by way of
> those who did, critical thinking is about the last thing they learned in the
> academic gauntlet. What they did learn was pure rote memorization. Now,
> I'm all for rote, and it does have it's place (ie, multiplication tables),
Multiplication tables have no place. you can do all the stuff using 2's
and 5's. and those shouldn't be too hard for kids to learn.
> It's once been said that the difference between an american and japanese
> engineering college is that the Japanese professor would force his students
> to learn the maximum allowable tensile stresses of various metals at room
> temperature on the first day. The american professor would say "the limits
> are all listed in a book, and you darn well better look them up when you
> work on a project."
Ever wonder why I hate engineers?
Every single day, asking "but the answer isn't in the _book_!" "Can't we
just look up the answers in a table or something?!"
*mutters dire thoughts*
now, technologists are a different story... but they don't exist yet.
Lena
Adam Haun
<haibane_please_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Adam Haun wrote:
>
>Wow, so full of broad generalizations.
When you're talking about a whole country, it's kind of hard to give
anything else. I'll try to be more specific.
>> To be honest, the thought of privatizing education(as you seem to
>> suggest) frightens me greatly. Corporations are far better at
>> influencing people's minds than the government. Think about how warped
>> people who come out of religious private schools can be[2], and
>
>About as warped as those who come out of public schools. Except that they
>may have a religious bias, as opposed to a secular bias. If that's a crime
>in your eyes, I guess you'll just have to deal with it.
I don't give a flying fuck about religious bias.
I'm going to say right up front that this is anecdotal. I've also
never heard this anecdote contradicted. Mileage may vary.
It has been my experience that people who attend religious private
schools tend to be more repressed than people who don't. When the
repression breaks, as it usually does, the result is not pretty.
"Catholic schoolgirls are sluts" is a running gag, but it's a gag with
a grain of truth to it.
Again, not everyone who attends a private school will be turned bad,
and not everyone who attends a public school will be happy and well
adjusted. My observation is simply that the scale tilts a bit one way,
and that this can be blamed on the environment of repressive religious
schools. Other types of environments can do the same thing(cue stories
of high school abuse that would be better left to Slashdot).
If you want to dispute this, go for it. Hearing an observation to the
contrary would be comforting.
>Seriously, though, you ensure us that a corporate-run school would be a bad
>thing, but give us no supporting arguments, except to draw a poor parallel
>to a biased opinion regarding schools that actually perform above the
>average.
Let's assume for the moment that your average corporation would do a
decent job of actually running the school itself. What benefit is
there with sticking to that one job? For a non-ideologically driven
for-profit organization, the obvious thing to do is try to make more
money off of the school system. Now there's a limit to how much you
can charge for tuition, so the next logical step is to start throwing
advertising in schools. This trend has already begun in public schools
with vendor lock-in for drink machines and such, but I can easily see
it going much further. How about advertising in textbooks, too? And
speaking of textbooks, who does the textbook selection? Anything
remotely critical of the corporation(or corporations in general) is
right out. Textbooks are selected and rejected for sillier reasons
now, so it's not much of a stretch. Currently, the ideological
selection is not terribly organized or directed, as it is the product
of the ever-shifting PC movement. What else could a competent
marketing department do?
How about disciplining students for bringing another company's
products to school? A while back, a high school student was suspended
for trying to wear a Pepsi T-shirt for a picture on the school's Coke
Day. This is not wholly unreasonable(the principle claimed that the
student's objective was to be disruptive, and was probably right), but
what if every day was Coke Day? And hey, why stick to exclusion?
Schools already mandate the purchase of supplies, which may include
uniforms. Could said uniforms be replaced by trendy CorporateWear[TM]?
Certainly. Calculators, graph paper, and required reading could soon
follow. With a captive audience, anything is possible.
Once the status quo is advanced, the next stage of incremental
improvements can be made.
Remember, all of this is assuming that the corporation would actually
do a good job of running a school in the face of the aftermentioned
preexisting social problems. I'm also ignoring the possibility of a
truly large-scale attempt to alter society, such as the diamond
engagement ring ad campaign of the early 19th century, because I
consider such a thing unlikely(though not impossible).
If you want more, ask. I need to eat dinner.
>> Our school system would improve automatically if people valued
>> education as a whole. Unfortunately, it seems that most people do not.
>
>Half-right. Having people value education is a very important piece of the
>puzzle. Most people in the US do value it, but have no clue as to how it
>works.
People might value education in the abstract, but they also love to
call themselves idiots. See "Oh, I'm just not a math person", above.
See also "X for Dummies". And others. Part of doing well in school is
believe that you're actually capable of learning things, and being
told that it's okay to be treated like a moron certainly doesn't help
that.
>Plus, you've still got idiotic trends in pop/counter-culture that
>hang on long after they should have been dead. How many times do we see
>people complain about the miserable state of education one minute, then turn
>around give a "right on!" to The Wall?
What is The Wall? Google didn't turn up anything obvious.
>How are the schools supposed to do
>their jobs when any attempt to educate the students is automatically
>considered oppression.
A very good question.
>Ok, so you're three-quarters right.
:-p
>> This problem will either get worse or go away on its own, but I can't
>> think of a way to force the issue. I wish I could. Think of all that
>> we could accomplish if our students works as hard as Japanese students
>
>You mean students who are too burned out to actually do any studying in
>college? Even japan is realizing that the old system isn't quite as good as
>they thought.
Okay, maybe not *quite* that hard.
>> did. They might even pick up some critical thinking along the way! Now
>> there's a novel thought. :)
<snip>
I'm sorry, I phrased that last sentence poorly. I meant that by
combining the work ethic of Japanese students with the better
structure of American schools, we'd get something much better than
either.
Rick
"Lena B Katz" <l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58-035....@unix14.andrew.cmu.edu...
I'm talking about schools competing for students and parents using vouchers.
The good schools would stay in business and the bad ones with bad teachers
would close down. And if black students would go to black schools and white
students to white schools doesn't bother me at all. Blacks live in black
neighborhoods and go toblack colleges now with black movies and black tv
shows and black music whats the difference. What you are looking for is
Utopia
and that only exists in novels and movies.
>
> Lena
Rick
"Lena B Katz" <l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58-035....@unix14.andrew.cmu.edu...
>
>
I never said most women but 40 million since roe vs wade almost counts
for a holocaust almost. And men who comit rape should be castrated or
put into institutions. Also most pedophile's also have mental problems but
when we said that putting them away so they cann't do any harm was bad
and we let them roam the streets is one reason why we these crimes today
>
> Lena
Rick
"The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:coydnU9HCoM...@comcast.com...
> Rick wrote:
>
> > A liberal woman is always talking about the babaric army killing
> > innocent women and children. But she probably has had an abortion
>
> Dude.
>
> Generalize much?
I bet you most liberal women do support abortion I don't think thats
generalizing much.
Dude.
Farix
news:Pine.GSO.4.58-035....@unix15.andrew.cmu.edu...
> Please. A true teacher gives questions, and not answers. A true teacher
> teaches kids how to think. (I only know one, and he's an illtempered coot
> to boot, but still worth hanging around.).
I'm a substitute teacher for grades K-8. One of the things that comes up
often is that we can read a selection, then when I begin asking questions
about what they just read -- especially with the upper grades -- I get a
room full of blank stares. These kids are not having problems with "critical
thinking" skills, but with basic comprehension.
Then there have been times I give them an assignment out of the social
studies or science book and the students don't even know how to begin
looking for the answer in the text. And I've ran into a couple where it
didn't dawn on them to even look in the text.
Generally, I just point them to the section where the answer could be found
and sometimes I will point to the paragraph. But every once in a while, I'll
point to the exact sentence and a student still can't find the answer. x_x
And don't get me started on dictionary skills.
> Multiplication tables have no place. you can do all the stuff using 2's
> and 5's. and those shouldn't be too hard for kids to learn.
Sadly, many of the students I deal with can rarely do multiplication without
the aid of a multiplication chart. Even with basic multiples such as 3's,
4's and surprisingly 5's. And I do get a sense that memorizing the
multiplication tables just aren't the priority that it use to be.
Farix
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Rick
If it's potentially human that drunk driver wouldn't be charged with 2 couns
And don't give me that it's what the mother says it is because than your
not making sense.
>
> Lena
Antonio E. Gonzalez
>Date: 1/28/2004 4:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <vYWdnW_veN5...@comcast.com>
Of course, then newpapers will re-start those obituaries to women who died
from "backalley operations" (though I doubt modern newspapers will be so
subtle), not to mention ERs full of women with septic infections (the
"survivors"); then again, maybe that's exactly what you want (after all, don't
the murderesses deserve it?) . . .
- Vaughner
- "Well, thanks to the internet, I'm bored with sex."
- Philip J. Fry, "Futurama"
Rick
The wall is from pink floyds the wall back in 1979.
And can you give me one of those repression break examples.
And I can also give you one reason for the sorry state of our
schools is Liberalism and one of it's evil creations Politcal
Correctness. >
Rick
"Antonio E. Gonzalez" <ante...@aol.complex> wrote in message
news:20040128195025...@mb-m29.aol.com...
But I suppose the you think the baby does?
Eric Schwartz
> "Adam Haun" <ad...@mail.rit.edu> wrote:
>> <haibane_please_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with anime>
Take it to talk.misc or some such place, please? Or email amongst
yerselves, I don't care. But this really doesn't have a lick to do
with anime anymore, so please stop discussing it on RAAM, 'k?
Thankee kindly,
-=Eric (guilty of more than a few OT discussions himself, but trying
to stop it)
--
Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare.
-- Blair Houghton.
Adam Haun
wrote:
>The wall is from pink floyds the wall back in 1979.
>And can you give me one of those repression break examples.
>And I can also give you one reason for the sorry state of our
>schools is Liberalism and one of it's evil creations Politcal
>Correctness. >
Liberalism doesn't mean what you think it does. Try again.
Throwing around "liberal" and "conservative" as insults is stupid and
worthless anyway.
Adam Haun
wrote:
>"Rick" <videoj...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> "Adam Haun" <ad...@mail.rit.edu> wrote:
>>> <haibane_please_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
><a lot of stuff that has nothing to do with anime>
>
>Take it to talk.misc or some such place, please? Or email amongst
>yerselves, I don't care. But this really doesn't have a lick to do
>with anime anymore, so please stop discussing it on RAAM, 'k?
>
>Thankee kindly,
>
>-=Eric (guilty of more than a few OT discussions himself, but trying
> to stop it)
I think I'll take you up on that. I should know better than to think
something worthwhile will come out of these.
sanjian
> "Adam Haun" <ad...@mail.rit.edu> wrote in message
> news:4018422a...@news.houston.sbcglobal.net...
>> I'm sorry, I phrased that last sentence poorly. I meant that by
>> combining the work ethic of Japanese students with the better
>> structure of American schools, we'd get something much better than
>> either.
>
> The wall is from pink floyds the wall back in 1979.
> And can you give me one of those repression break examples.
> And I can also give you one reason for the sorry state of our
> schools is Liberalism and one of it's evil creations Politcal
> Correctness. >
While I agree that many of the bone-heades polices that are killing
education over here are from the left, you can't just say that and leave it
at that.
Antonio E. Gonzalez
>Date: 1/28/2004 5:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <kbidnSehDqD...@comcast.com>
Way to dodge the issue!
(BTW, of course, not, but if it's going to "die" anyway; I don't see how I
even have a right to properly answer this anyway . . .)
Blade
news:40185...@corp.newsgroups.com:
....dear god.
I've heard many horror stories about the US school system, but this...can
anyone else offer some collaboration on that?
If that kind of utter imbecility is rampant, no wonder so many Americans
think public schooling doesn't work.
Geez, and I thought it was bad in Canada just because it was mandatory to
take a basic English course in university to learn how to write essays...
Blade
*******
Also Known As: Chris McNeil, The Annoying Jerk, The Enemy of Democracy,
"That Guy That Can't Write A Lunch Menu Without Pantyhose Tarou Being In
It Somewhere"
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com
- Bigger. Better. Badder. Back. Oh yeah.
http://www.bladeandepsilon.com/kaliashrine.htm
- Worship the Cute Evil that is Kalia! Or else!
"Welcome to the Internet!
Where everyone has an opinion, so you don't have to!"
sanjian
>>> Of course, then newpapers will re-start those obituaries to women
>>> who died from "backalley operations" (though I doubt modern
>>> newspapers will be so subtle), not to mention ERs full of women
>>> with septic infections (the "survivors"); then again, maybe that's
>>> exactly what you want (after all, don't the murderesses deserve
>>> it?) . . .
>>
>> But I suppose the you think the baby does?
>>
>
> Way to dodge the issue!
>
> (BTW, of course, not, but if it's going to "die" anyway; I don't
> see how I even have a right to properly answer this anyway . . .)
I tried to stay out of this one, but you can't post crap like this and
expect me to stay silent. For the matter of this post, I don't care if you
think abortion is right or wrong, but this line of reasoning is absolutely
absurd! Yeah, "if it's going to die anyway" (misused quote marks ommited).
If something's wrong, it's wrong. It's not made any better by making it
easier on whoever's committing the act. Maybe next time there's a bank
robbery, we can call in the Air Force to reduce the bank to rubble; after
all, if the hostages are going to die anyways... Maybe we should leave our
doors unlocked to make it easier for burglers; after all, if they were going
to break in anyways...
Farix
news:Xns947EEB16EC...@66.185.95.104...
It sounds worse then it really is. The real problem is that the students
really aren't trying, are not regularly encouraged to try, and why think for
yourself or find your own answers when you can copy off someone else or get
your parents to do your work for you. That is why I like to avoid "Group
Learning" because it always turns into one big cheat session.
Dale
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:56:49 -0500, "Rick" <videoj...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
You'll also note that you hear more
> about research than about a university's research than the quality of
> its teaching.
Depends. At large universities with over 10,000 students they tend to
emphazie research over teaching because research gets the government
and private grant money. However I went to an excellent but small
liberal arts college (Vassar, 3000 students) We had no graduate
students and the largest class size was about 100 and that was only
for popular survey courses like Intro to Art History. At Vassar,
teaching was more important than scientific research. Also many of
friends who went to large universities complained about having foreign
teachers who haven't quite mastered the English language.
>
> * Size - Does the school have thousands of students? Hundreds? Dozens?
> This can severely affect the social atmosphere of the school, among
> other things. Remember Columbine?
A smaller school can have a more stifiling student atmoshpehere.
However it also has a smaller teacher/student ration in a class and I
am a firm believer in the fact the students learn better in smaller
classes.
>
> * Price - More an issue at the university level. Financial aid is
> often scarce, and not everyone can afford a $40k/yr tuition.
Most private schools are just as or even more expensive than private
universities. Especially if a kid goes to private school from Day One.
>
> * College prep - Does a high school offer advanced classes that will
> look good on a college application? Good grades in AP courses are
> coveted regardless of what is actually learned in the course.[1]
>
I got into my excellent college without any AP courses. I did have two
honor courses though. In my senior year of HS, I was in the highest
social-studies class and the second highest English class but neither
were AP.
>
>
> To be honest, the thought of privatizing education(as you seem to
> suggest) frightens me greatly. Corporations are far better at
> influencing people's minds than the government. Think about how warped
> people who come out of religious private schools can be[2], and
> realize that the Coca-Cola Academy will be much, much worse.
I agree. I don't like the idea of charter schools (private
corporations running public schools) Philadelphia tried to do that
with three of its worst high schools and the standards at each high
school decreased.
>
> Our school system would improve automatically if people valued
> education as a whole. Unfortunately, it seems that most people do not.
> This problem will either get worse or go away on its own, but I can't
> think of a way to force the issue. I wish I could. Think of all that
> we could accomplish if our students works as hard as Japanese students
> did. They might even pick up some critical thinking along the way! Now
> there's a novel thought. :)
1. Japanese high school students don't work that hard. I taught them
for one year and I can tell you that many of them are just as lazy as
American students. Maybe even more are because it is impossible to be
left behind in the Japanese school system. Even if you fail every
test, you will be automatically advanced to the next grade level.
2. Japanese schools do not teach critical thinking or writing.
Japanese schools teach by roote memorization for every subject except
art and physical education. I knew many Japanese people who went to
university or graduate school in America. All of them said that they
did not know how to write a critical paper or argue until they started
attedning American schools.
>
>
> [1] Don't you *dare* respond with some nonsense like "Well, you don't
> learn anything in high school anyway." That's a load of crap. High
> school is exactly what you make of it -- no more, and no less.
Very true. However I must warn you not to develop a "grass is greener"
symptom about Japan. Japanese students don't work very hard in HS. It
is a common misconception that Japanese people work harder than
Americans. Japanese people do spend more hours at school and work than
Americans do. However they don't actually acomplish much work. In
Japan it is important to show dedication and you can only show
dedication by staying at place for a long time. I knew many Japanese
people who put in 10 or 12 hour days at the office but out of those
long hours, maybe only 5 or 6 were spent actually doing work.
>
> [2] There's a reason Britney Spears dresses like a Catholic
> schoolgirl, and it's not to look innocent.
Rick
"sanjian" <haibane_please_d...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:F0%Rb.927$Yj.596@lakeread02...
>
Well the one size fits all mentality that liberals always go by in
government
is rampant in education. ANd just try and get rid of a bad teacher is like
going up against a brick wall.>
Dale
>
> > Adam Haun wrote:
> >
>
> Does anyone else know someone who went to a religious school that wasn't
> their religion? I knew a Jew who went to Catholic school.
There is a quaker school in Philadelphia where every student seems to
be Jewish. And where did this Jew go to Catholic School. If it was in
NYC, it doesn't count because people from NYC are all honorary Jews by
definition.
>
> Ever wonder why I hate engineers?
>
> Every single day, asking "but the answer isn't in the _book_!" "Can't we
> just look up the answers in a table or something?!"
>
> *mutters dire thoughts*
>
I taught many engineers when I was in Japan. Most of them were
extremely frustrating to teach. Many (but not all) of them were,
unapologetically, the most boring people I have ever met in my life.
They were completely colorless, not one ounce of personality. They
also wanted a formula for everything. They wanted everything to have
one right answer and couldn't grasp that in English (and every other
language) that there are many, different ways to ask or say something
and you have to change them depending on the situation. If I asked
them what there favorite subject in HS was, they said math because
there is only one right answer. I prefered the students who liked art
"because there are no right answers"
Dale
And I am telling you that Japanese students don't have a work ethic!!!
They like to slack just as much as American HS students. I worked for
a private English school in Japan. Many parents sent their kids to the
school, to learn English. The kids who worked hard were the ones who
either spent a few years in an English speaking country, wanted to go
to uni in an english speaking country, or were just generally
competitive. However most of my kids resented having to waste their
free time going to private-English lessons and just slacked off. Quite
a few of them just state in the lesson without talking for forty
minutes.
Why do you think Japanese students have a hard work ethic? They don't.
All that matters in Japan is passing the entrance exam for a top
university like Waseda, Keio or Tokyo. Once you get into a top
university it is slack city because you will automatically graduate
and get a good job because of the uni you attended.
Dale
> "Lena B Katz" <l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.58-035....@unix15.andrew.cmu.edu...
> > Please. A true teacher gives questions, and not answers. A true teacher
> > teaches kids how to think. (I only know one, and he's an illtempered coot
> > to boot, but still worth hanging around.).
>
> I'm a substitute teacher for grades K-8. One of the things that comes up
> often is that we can read a selection, then when I begin asking questions
> about what they just read -- especially with the upper grades -- I get a
> room full of blank stares. These kids are not having problems with "critical
> thinking" skills, but with basic comprehension.
>
When I was in elemetary school, many of the teachers and admin thought
I was learning disabled because I had trouble reading out loud. I was
always put in the lower reading groups. However my comprehension
skills were excellent. I never had any trouble with comprehension
after silent reading.
Rick
> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:59:51 -0500, "Rick" <videoj...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >The wall is from pink floyds the wall back in 1979.
> >And can you give me one of those repression break examples.
> >And I can also give you one reason for the sorry state of our
> >schools is Liberalism and one of it's evil creations Politcal
> >Correctness. >
>
> Liberalism doesn't mean what you think it does. Try again.
>
> Throwing around "liberal" and "conservative" as insults is stupid and
> worthless anyway.
Well I think it's interesting that Liberals want no constraints on anything
in
general but want the government to control everything but vice versa
Conservatives. Hey how bout that for generalization.
Dale
> >
> >> Multiplication tables have no place. you can do all the stuff
> >> using 2's and 5's. and those shouldn't be too hard for kids to
> >> learn.
> >
> > Sadly, many of the students I deal with can rarely do multiplication
> > without the aid of a multiplication chart. Even with basic multiples
> > such as 3's, 4's and surprisingly 5's. And I do get a sense that
> > memorizing the multiplication tables just aren't the priority that
> > it use to be.
>
> ....dear god.
>
> I've heard many horror stories about the US school system, but this...can
> anyone else offer some collaboration on that?
>
> If that kind of utter imbecility is rampant, no wonder so many Americans
> think public schooling doesn't work.
It sounds like an extreme example to me. However I grew up in an upper
middle class and above, suburb of NYC. The suburb is also dominated
by Jews and Asians who cultures who traditionally think that all
happiness and success comes from being well-educated. My town has
always put tons of money into the school system and the parents
encourage their kids to get very good grades. 99 percent of my high
school class went to univeristy and many of them went to really good
ones (the Ivy League and similar range)
My town has never rejected a school budget and whenever a person runs
for local office suggesting that we cut the school budget, they are
mocked and then defeated by large margins.
>
> Geez, and I thought it was bad in Canada just because it was mandatory to
> take a basic English course in university to learn how to write essays...
>
>
We have those in American colleges as well even at the really good
ones.
Rick
"Antonio E. Gonzalez" <ante...@aol.complex> wrote in message
Well this all came from bad law in the first place with Roe vs Wade.
The SCOTUS should just throw it back to the states. There is no such
thing as a right to privacy in the Constitution that's what the 10
ammendment
is for.
The Wanderer
> "The Wanderer" <inverse...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:coydnU9HCoM...@comcast.com...
>
>> Rick wrote:
>>
>>> A liberal woman is always talking about the babaric army killing
>>> innocent women and children. But she probably has had an abortion
>>
>> Dude.
>>
>> Generalize much?
>
> I bet you most liberal women do support abortion I don't think thats
> generalizing much.
It probably isn't, but that wasn't what you said, or what I was talking
about.
I've never heard *any* woman, liberal or otherwise, "talking about the
barbaric army killing innocent women and children" (actually, I'm not
sure I've heard any *men* talking about that either, if you discount my
father who objects more on principles of religious pacifism), nor have I
heard anything which would indicate that it happens outside of my
hearing.
Additionally, "supporting abortion" and "having had an abortion" are two
completely different things; far more people, whether liberal or
conservative or anything else, fit the former description than the
latter.
It boils down to your having made some wildly general assertions which
may be true of some caricature of liberal women, but are almost
certainly *not* true of the real thing. (As a group, I mean - individual
examples which fit your description can almost certainly be provided if
one searches hard enough.)
Chris Mattern
>
> I taught many engineers when I was in Japan. Most of them were
> extremely frustrating to teach. Many (but not all) of them were,
> unapologetically, the most boring people I have ever met in my life.
> They were completely colorless, not one ounce of personality. They
> also wanted a formula for everything. They wanted everything to have
> one right answer and couldn't grasp that in English (and every other
> language) that there are many, different ways to ask or say something
> and you have to change them depending on the situation. If I asked
> them what there favorite subject in HS was, they said math because
> there is only one right answer. I prefered the students who liked art
> "because there are no right answers"
And you should get down on your knees and thank God there are people
like that, because in engineering, there *are* right answers, and
when designing things like buildings, cars, airplanes, and the like,
if those right answers aren't found, people die.
Chris Mattern
Adam Haun
wrote:
>
By that definition, nobody is either "Liberal" or "Conservative". I
came up as 100% liberal on this silly test, but I have no desire for
the government to control everything. I see benefits in both
government and private action. A person who wants the government to
control everything is a tyrant. A person who wants the government to
control nothing is an anarchist. Neither of these is a reasonable or
widespread point of view.
Daniel Marx
> My problem is and it is a pretty original one. The dad has no
> say in abortion. And why do only guys have to sign up
> for selective service. I want everything to be gender
> equal, EQUAL!!!! *SHAKES FIST*
I feel that the woman should be able to get an abortion without the
man's consent. Just because a man has sex with a woman does not mean
that he owns her body. However, I feel that, if the man does not want
to be a father, he should be able to waive all paternity rights and
responsibilities at any time the woman could have an abortion
(anywhere from just before birth to third trimester, depending on
state abortion laws). (Of course, this would only apply to unmarried
couples. Support of kids is part of the marriage contract, IMO.) It is
unfair that a woman who does not want to be a mother is "pro choice"
but a man who does not want to be a father is "a deadbeat dad". Also,
keep in mind that it can be difficult to collect child support. With
my way, the woman would know exactly where she stood as far as getting
money was concerned.
As for selective service-abolish it. We are not owned by the state.
Jorge Pratt
"Chris Mattern" <sys...@gwu.edu> wrote in message
news:40193D9...@gwu.edu...
True enough, but I understand the frustration in the sense that these
engineers also lacked creativity --there are "right" answers, but, more
often than not, there are also "better" answers (at the very least, there
are no *solitary* right answers.) In my field, I've encountered many
engineers that run up against a wall when their particular approach can't be
improved upon; their answer is right and effective, but not particularly
efficient or inventive. An engineer without creativity is nothing but a
glorified calculator; and when his formula fails and his "right" method
trips up, he lacks the ingenuity to seek other avenues.
This formulaic thinking also stifles Quality Control, which I've seen
defined as "meeting and going beyond consumer expectations." How can this be
accomplished by sticking to "only one right answer" and using it as law? I
have a feeling it's also where the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" cliche
comes from. To put it another way... the "right answer" was that objects
heavier than air could not fly, and that the atom could not be divided. We
all know how correct those concepts were.
As you say, if right answers aren't found, people can die --but that means
that it's the *basis* of a particular solution which must be right, and
*then* a field of further answers can be explored to bolster efficiency and
design. Pretty much all of my college teachers held to that concept, and
frequently challenged us to find interesting and creative solutions to a
problem without relying on a single, tried-and-true formula.
The Zephyr
(Obviously, all programming courses were adamant about this.)
Adam Haun
>ad...@mail.rit.edu (Adam Haun) wrote in message news:<40173368...@news.houston.sbcglobal.net>...
>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:56:49 -0500, "Rick" <videoj...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
> You'll also note that you hear more
>> about research than about a university's research than the quality of
>> its teaching.
>
>Depends. At large universities with over 10,000 students they tend to
>emphazie research over teaching because research gets the government
>and private grant money. However I went to an excellent but small
>liberal arts college (Vassar, 3000 students) We had no graduate
>students and the largest class size was about 100 and that was only
>for popular survey courses like Intro to Art History. At Vassar,
>teaching was more important than scientific research. Also many of
>friends who went to large universities complained about having foreign
>teachers who haven't quite mastered the English language.
There's some context lost here. What I said is that the apparent high
quality of American universities is sometimes an artifact of which
schools you look at and how you look at them. It's easy to look at a
high school with low standardized test scores and complain, but
university performance is harder to measure.
Which is not to say that we don't have the best university system in
the world. But crappy schools do exist at all levels.
>> * Size - Does the school have thousands of students? Hundreds? Dozens?
>> This can severely affect the social atmosphere of the school, among
>> other things. Remember Columbine?
>
>A smaller school can have a more stifiling student atmoshpehere.
>However it also has a smaller teacher/student ration in a class and I
>am a firm believer in the fact the students learn better in smaller
>classes.
Indeed -- I failed to mention that.
>> * College prep - Does a high school offer advanced classes that will
>> look good on a college application? Good grades in AP courses are
>> coveted regardless of what is actually learned in the course.[1]
>>
>
>I got into my excellent college without any AP courses. I did have two
>honor courses though. In my senior year of HS, I was in the highest
>social-studies class and the second highest English class but neither
>were AP.
If you want to get into the extreme top tier of schools, a full suite
of honors classes helps. It's less of an issue for those of us who
don't feel like going to Yale. :)
Jorge Pratt
> I'm not against corporate schooling, per se. But I do think that
> self-selection of school is a pretty poor idea. If we let people choose
> where they go to school, they'll choose to be among people who think like
> themselves. Just the same cliques you had in high school, with one
> critical difference: they won't get the exposure to other cliques.
Uh... NO. I always chose (through family) which school I went to, which
included Cath schooling for grade and junior-high. I dunno how homogenous
society is in US schools, but at least here, that third statement is
laughable at best, even in said Catholic schools.
> Please. A true teacher gives questions, and not answers.
Technically, they should do both ;) A student that can't find an answer
despite his hardest efforts must have someone to guide him through, anyway.
And in exact-science courses, at least they should provide an answer so that
you know what result to aim for through your solution.
Just a nitpick, tho' :P
> > Now, I didn't attend school in Japan, but from what I've heard by way of
> > those who did, critical thinking is about the last thing they learned in
the
> > academic gauntlet. What they did learn was pure rote memorization.
Now,
> > I'm all for rote, and it does have it's place (ie, multiplication
tables),
>
> Multiplication tables have no place. you can do all the stuff using 2's
> and 5's. and those shouldn't be too hard for kids to learn.
Uhh... yes, they do have a place. Anything related to scientific or
technological studies demands you know something as basic as this by heart.
Besides, learning 100 combinations isn't THAT hard, and constant use will
make you learn them anyway by fourth grade at the latest.
> > It's once been said that the difference between an american and japanese
> > engineering college is that the Japanese professor would force his
students
> > to learn the maximum allowable tensile stresses of various metals at
room
> > temperature on the first day. The american professor would say "the
limits
> > are all listed in a book, and you darn well better look them up when you
> > work on a project."
Eugh. Can't say I agree with either approach: there are concepts you must
keep in mind, yes, but you must also be allowed to check and consult and
reference for real-life applications. Learning how to *use* those concepts
is far more important than rote memorization that will probably fade away
after a couple of months.
> Ever wonder why I hate engineers?
XP
> Every single day, asking "but the answer isn't in the _book_!" "Can't we
> just look up the answers in a table or something?!"
>
> *mutters dire thoughts*
Ah, then your particular experience hasn't been with engineers, but with
robots calling themselves that. As I mentioned in the other post, a real
engineer should know better than to stick to easy answers from a book or a
formula.
If the engineers you've encountered can't think their way around a problem,
then... I feel sorry for them. Nearly all occupations in the world require
creativity in some way or another.
The Zephyr
Lena B Katz
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004, Rick wrote:
>
> "Lena B Katz" <l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.58-035....@unix14.andrew.cmu.edu...
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Rick wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > "Lena B Katz" <l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
> > > news:Pine.GSO.4.58-035....@unix15.andrew.cmu.edu...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Ethan Hammond wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Lena B Katz" <l...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 10 years ago I was more liberal, before we had 8 years of
> Clinton.
> > > > > > > I wish this quiz had asked about abortion. I hate baby killing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm actually quite partial to baby killing. Makes more sense than
> > > killing
> > > > > > humans, at any rate.
> > > > >
> > > > > O.o;;;; ?ż?ż It is killing humans.
> > > >
> > > > not by the psychological definition of a human. now, I don't have my
> > > > morality textbook handy (took a medical ethics class once)... but I do
> > > > know that much.
> > >
> > > If thats true if a pregnant women driving home from work gets into
> > > an accident and dies and the other driver was drunk he could get
> > > charged for 2 counts of murder.
> >
> > You show some serious inability to make sense. If what is true? Yes, I
> > do understand the legal definition of a human. I'm _not_ talking about
> > that one. And you can make a decent ethical argument for trying to
> > preserve the lives of potential humans... just _not_ at the expense of
> > actual humans' life or time.
> >
> > > Psychological definition of a human
> > > indeed what do you think a pregnant women is going to deliver her
> > > laundry.
> >
> > A potential human. Give the poor baby a few years, and he will (probably,
> > but not always) become a human.
>
> If it's potentially human that drunk driver wouldn't be charged with 2 couns
> And don't give me that it's what the mother says it is because than your
> not making sense.
Piss and shit may be talking about the same thing (bodily waste), but they
aren't the same thing.
I choose to use the scientific method, and the scientific definition.
And apparently you haven't read Roe V. Wade well enough, as it does give a
medical definition of exactly when a person becomes "close enough to
human".
Lena
Lena B Katz
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004, Rick wrote:
>
> "Adam Haun" <ad...@mail.rit.edu> wrote in message
> news:4018422a...@news.houston.sbcglobal.net...
> > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 17:08:53 -0500, "sanjian"
> > <haibane_please_d...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Adam Haun wrote:
> > >
> > >Wow, so full of broad generalizations.
> >
> > When you're talking about a whole country, it's kind of hard to give
> > anything else. I'll try to be more specific.
> >
> > >> To be honest, the thought of privatizing education(as you seem to
> > >> suggest) frightens me greatly. Corporations are far better at
> > >> influencing people's minds than the government. Think about how warped
> > >> people who come out of religious private schools can be[2], and
> > >
> > >About as warped as those who come out of public schools. Except that
> they
> > >may have a religious bias, as opposed to a secular bias. If that's a
> crime
> > >in your eyes, I guess you'll just have to deal with it.
> >
> > I don't give a flying fuck about religious bias.
> >
> > I'm going to say right up front that this is anecdotal. I've also
> > never heard this anecdote contradicted. Mileage may vary.
> >
> > It has been my experience that people who attend religious private
> > schools tend to be more repressed than people who don't. When the
> > repression breaks, as it usually does, the result is not pretty.
> > "Catholic schoolgirls are sluts" is a running gag, but it's a gag with
> > a grain of truth to it.
> >
> > Again, not everyone who attends a private school will be turned bad,
> > and not everyone who attends a public school will be happy and well
> > adjusted. My observation is simply that the scale tilts a bit one way,
> > and that this can be blamed on the environment of repressive religious
> > schools. Other types of environments can do the same thing(cue stories
> > of high school abuse that would be better left to Slashdot).
> >
> > If you want to dispute this, go for it. Hearing an observation to the
> > contrary would be comforting.
> >
> > >Seriously, though, you ensure us that a corporate-run school would be a
> bad
> > >thing, but give us no supporting arguments, except to draw a poor
> parallel
> > >to a biased opinion regarding schools that actually perform above the
> > >average.
> >
> > Let's assume for the moment that your average corporation would do a
> > decent job of actually running the school itself. What benefit is
> > there with sticking to that one job? For a non-ideologically driven
> > for-profit organization, the obvious thing to do is try to make more
> > money off of the school system. Now there's a limit to how much you
> > can charge for tuition, so the next logical step is to start throwing
> > advertising in schools. This trend has already begun in public schools
> > with vendor lock-in for drink machines and such, but I can easily see
> > it going much further. How about advertising in textbooks, too? And
> > speaking of textbooks, who does the textbook selection? Anything
> > remotely critical of the corporation(or corporations in general) is
> > right out. Textbooks are selected and rejected for sillier reasons
> > now, so it's not much of a stretch. Currently, the ideological
> > selection is not terribly organized or directed, as it is the product
> > of the ever-shifting PC movement. What else could a competent
> > marketing department do?
> >
> > How about disciplining students for bringing another company's
> > products to school? A while back, a high school student was suspended
> > for trying to wear a Pepsi T-shirt for a picture on the school's Coke
> > Day. This is not wholly unreasonable(the principle claimed that the
> > student's objective was to be disruptive, and was probably right), but
> > what if every day was Coke Day? And hey, why stick to exclusion?
> > Schools already mandate the purchase of supplies, which may include
> > uniforms. Could said uniforms be replaced by trendy CorporateWear[TM]?
> > Certainly. Calculators, graph paper, and required reading could soon
> > follow. With a captive audience, anything is possible.
> >
> > Once the status quo is advanced, the next stage of incremental
> > improvements can be made.
> >
> > Remember, all of this is assuming that the corporation would actually
> > do a good job of running a school in the face of the aftermentioned
> > preexisting social problems. I'm also ignoring the possibility of a
> > truly large-scale attempt to alter society, such as the diamond
> > engagement ring ad campaign of the early 19th century, because I
> > consider such a thing unlikely(though not impossible).
> >
> > If you want more, ask. I need to eat dinner.
> >
> > >> Our school system would improve automatically if people valued
> > >> education as a whole. Unfortunately, it seems that most people do not.
> > >
> > >Half-right. Having people value education is a very important piece of
> the
> > >puzzle. Most people in the US do value it, but have no clue as to how it
> > >works.
> >
> > People might value education in the abstract, but they also love to
> > call themselves idiots. See "Oh, I'm just not a math person", above.
> > See also "X for Dummies". And others. Part of doing well in school is
> > believe that you're actually capable of learning things, and being
> > told that it's okay to be treated like a moron certainly doesn't help
> > that.
> >
> > >Plus, you've still got idiotic trends in pop/counter-culture that
> > >hang on long after they should have been dead. How many times do we see
> > >people complain about the miserable state of education one minute, then
> turn
> > >around give a "right on!" to The Wall?
> >
> > What is The Wall? Google didn't turn up anything obvious.
> >
> > >How are the schools supposed to do
> > >their jobs when any attempt to educate the students is automatically
> > >considered oppression.
> >
> > A very good question.
> >
> > >Ok, so you're three-quarters right.
> >
> > :-p
> >
> > >> This problem will either get worse or go away on its own, but I can't
> > >> think of a way to force the issue. I wish I could. Think of all that
> > >> we could accomplish if our students works as hard as Japanese students
> > >
> > >You mean students who are too burned out to actually do any studying in
> > >college? Even japan is realizing that the old system isn't quite as good
> as
> > >they thought.
> >
> > Okay, maybe not *quite* that hard.
> >
> > >> did. They might even pick up some critical thinking along the way! Now
> > >> there's a novel thought. :)
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > I'm sorry, I phrased that last sentence poorly. I meant that by
> > combining the work ethic of Japanese students with the better
> > structure of American schools, we'd get something much better than
> > either.
>
> The wall is from pink floyds the wall back in 1979.
> And can you give me one of those repression break examples.
> And I can also give you one reason for the sorry state of our
> schools is Liberalism and one of it's evil creations Politcal
> Correctness. >
Down with Free Markets! Down with Capitalism!
(well... he didn't say he wasn't talking about _economic_ liberals... now
did he?)
Lena