The purpose of anime and feminism
Lee Ratner
My purpose in anime and feminism was too see why so many shojo
heroines whom are seen as good women in Japan are hated in America.
Miaka is an example of this. I think its because certain heroines are
strong are the exact opposite of what women in America expect in a
heroine.
Ben Cantrick
The fact that Miyaka is annoying as hell and massively burriko has
nothing to do with their dislike, of course.
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the BGC dubs still suck.
BGC Nukem: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/bgcnukem.html
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
"I would not have been successful had I tried to become rich." -Linus Torvalds
David Watson
> In article <390824c2...@news.supernews.com>,
> Lee Ratner <czar...@aol.com> wrote:
>> My purpose in anime and feminism was too see why so many shojo
>>heroines whom are seen as good women in Japan are hated in America.
>>Miaka is an example of this. I think its because certain heroines are
>>strong are the exact opposite of what women in America expect in a
>>heroine.
> The fact that Miyaka is annoying as hell and massively burriko has
> nothing to do with their dislike, of course.
How about Makino Tsukushi of Hana Yori Dango? While she still has some
parts of her personality that people who hate shoujo won't dig, I like
how, when all is said and done, she doesn't take shit from anybody and
frequently stands up to the people doling it out. No super powers or
anything like that; just an ordinary school girl coping with some
occasionally twisted circumstances. While some would say that the
occasional chink in her psychological armour is a sign of weakness, I
think it's a perfect depiction of someone still trying to find their own
path in among all the clashing elements, i.e. dealing with Doumiyouji
Tsukasa fluctuating between hating her and loving her. Since she's also
stood up for Kazuya (that geek friend of hers), I'd say she's a feminist
in the sense that she feels everyone--man and woman--should be treated
with equal dignity.
--
Dave Watson, Severed Heads Liberation Front (Re-release the _Stretcher_ EP!)
Frezier Balzoff (Ottawa), Ontario, Canada Email--shlf [at] ncf [dot] ca
My music and anime webpage: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/
FOUR MORE YEARS OF MIKE HARRIS' FASCISM?? ONTARIO! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
Ben Cantrick
David Watson <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>> The fact that Miyaka is annoying as hell and massively burriko has
>> nothing to do with their dislike, of course.
>How about Makino Tsukushi of Hana Yori Dango? While she still has some
>parts of her personality that people who hate shoujo won't dig, I like
>how, when all is said and done, she doesn't take shit from anybody and
>frequently stands up to the people doling it out.
Sounds like the kind of character I'd like. I'll have to try and find
some HYD.
Jojo
czar...@aol.com (Lee Ratner) wrote:
>
> My purpose in anime and feminism was too see why so many shojo
>heroines whom are seen as good women in Japan are hated in
America.
>Miaka is an example of this. I think its because certain
heroines are
>strong are the exact opposite of what women in America expect
in a
>heroine.
You're reading too much here when it comes to Miaka. It's just
personal tastes, not society.
Hell, I don't get what attracted so many people to Ally McBeal,
because she's as annoying as hell to me. It'd be silly if some
Japanese person thought it was some kind of American mindset
that women who are like Ally are so populat here.
Jojo
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Geiss
<390824c2...@news.supernews.com>:
> My purpose in anime and feminism was too see why so many shojo
>heroines whom are seen as good women in Japan are hated in
>America. Miaka is an example of this. I think its because certain
>heroines are strong are the exact opposite of what women in
>America expect in a heroine.
What the hell defines a feminist character here in America? A
woman who acts like a man?
--
Geiss
[40%] Crap Artist Extraordinaire
[25%] Web Stylist
[10%] Wired God Disciple
[25%] Jung Groupie
Use only as directed! Do not exceed recommended dosage!
IE5 Whore Website: http://members.home.com/ajyi
Jojo
<E5D1F8C355A4B6CC.BA881F24...@lp.airnews.ne
t>, aj...@KILLSPAMhome.com (Geiss) wrote:
>czar...@aol.com (Lee Ratner) wrote in
><390824c2...@news.supernews.com>:
>
>> My purpose in anime and feminism was too see why so many shojo
>>heroines whom are seen as good women in Japan are hated in
>>America. Miaka is an example of this. I think its because
certain
>>heroines are strong are the exact opposite of what women in
>>America expect in a heroine.
>
>What the hell defines a feminist character here in America? A
>woman who acts like a man?
>
Well, it seems it's come to the point where the attitude is "we
don't need men."
Personally, I think positive female role models should be ones
who are able to do whatever they want. If they feel like
depending on their man, then so be it. If they feel like being
independent, so be it. Any person who is able to act on her own
free will (nothing forcing her to do otherwise) is what I
consider a feminist.
Yes, I know that is not the correct definition, but that's my
definition.
Bogey
>>woman who acts like a man?
>>
>
>Well, it seems it's come to the point where the attitude is "we
>don't need men."
>
>Personally, I think positive female role models should be ones
>who are able to do whatever they want. If they feel like
>depending on their man, then so be it. If they feel like being
>independent, so be it. Any person who is able to act on her own
>free will (nothing forcing her to do otherwise) is what I
>consider a feminist.
>
>Yes, I know that is not the correct definition, but that's my
>definition.
>
>Jojo
What is the "correct definition" of feminism?
"A woman who acts like a man" or has a "we don't need men" attitude is the
_stereotypical_ definition of a feminist. Your personal definition is closer
to the mark.
-Bogey
Jojo
>
>What is the "correct definition" of feminism?
>
>"A woman who acts like a man" or has a "we don't need men"
attitude is the
>_stereotypical_ definition of a feminist. Your personal
definition is closer
>to the mark.
>
Okey, here's the Oxford Dictionary's definition:
Feminism /'femi,niz('e')m/ n. advocacy of women's rights and
sexual equality.
Pretty close, but still doesn't elaborate on what
women's "rights" means...
Jojo
M Arnold said:
A lot of anime skips that, giving us powerful and
>independent but otherwise hollow or cheaply stereotyped female
characters.
>Anime that tries to feature 'normal' women rarely gives them
power at all.
>Strength and 'independent' character is left in (or left out
of) fantasy.
>What have I seen that hasn't been glued to this pattern...
well, Omohide Poro
>Poro. Probably Eva and Kare-Kano.
What about Rei Ayanami? Anno has acknowledged that she is the
worst kind of poster girl for feminism. Heh, and yet she was so
popular in Japan (America, too...)
Simply dressing a woman up as a
>superhero, spaceship captain, magical queen, excellent
cook/housewife or even
>a company president without giving her *life* as a person isn't
going to make
>her a statement for social progress in my book.
True. Although there are just as many hollow male anime
characters...
Most of this may simply be attributed to bad writing.
>.
>
>Keep in mind there are a lot of anti-feminists out there who
are happy to
>argue that women are and have been housewives because that's
what they always
>wanted to do; that women have always had free will...
>
Any female anti-feminists exist? I'm sure there are some...
Sarah Davis
Lee Ratner wrote in message <390824c2...@news.supernews.com>...
>
> My purpose in anime and feminism was too see why so many shojo
>heroines whom are seen as good women in Japan are hated in America.
>Miaka is an example of this. I think its because certain heroines are
>strong are the exact opposite of what women in America expect in a
>heroine.
No, people hate Miaka because many of us think she's annoying. You don't
have to be omniscient, omnipresent, and totally jaw-droppingly amazing to be
acceptable to the American public, female or male.
Some shoujo heroines fare well. Utena and Tsukushi, for example. And who can
resist dear little Sana from Kodocha? The most important factor contributing
to their success is that they are unique characters with their own strengths
and frailties. Miaka is very cookie-cutter, not an especially unique or
memorable character. She's a stereotypical damsel in distress, woefully
incompetent and terribly idealized. Some people find her charming, others
want to wring her neck. Many shoujo heroines are like this: Dull-witted,
indecisive, and silly, but, god willing, surrounded by a decent cast that is
the real attraction of the show.
Sarah
Jorge R. Frank
>
> In article <8e9o8u$7ak$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
> David Watson <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> >> The fact that Miyaka is annoying as hell and massively burriko has
> >> nothing to do with their dislike, of course.
> >How about Makino Tsukushi of Hana Yori Dango? While she still has some
> >parts of her personality that people who hate shoujo won't dig, I like
> >how, when all is said and done, she doesn't take shit from anybody and
> >frequently stands up to the people doling it out.
>
> Sounds like the kind of character I'd like. I'll have to try and find
> some HYD.
Do yourself a favor; it's a wonderful series, at least what I've seen of
it. IIRC, LunaArts has episodes for download.
--
JRF
Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" and think one step ahead of IBM.
Bob Seay
>In article
><E5D1F8C355A4B6CC.BA881F24...@lp.airnews.ne
>t>, aj...@KILLSPAMhome.com (Geiss) wrote:
>>czar...@aol.com (Lee Ratner) wrote in
>><390824c2...@news.supernews.com>:
>>
>>> My purpose in anime and feminism was too see why so many shojo
>>>heroines whom are seen as good women in Japan are hated in
>>>America. Miaka is an example of this. I think its because
>certain
>>>heroines are strong are the exact opposite of what women in
>>>America expect in a heroine.
>>
>>What the hell defines a feminist character here in America? A
>>woman who acts like a man?
>>
>
>Well, it seems it's come to the point where the attitude is "we
>don't need men."
>
>Personally, I think positive female role models should be ones
>who are able to do whatever they want. If they feel like
>depending on their man, then so be it. If they feel like being
>independent, so be it. Any person who is able to act on her own
>free will (nothing forcing her to do otherwise) is what I
>consider a feminist.
>
>Yes, I know that is not the correct definition, but that's my
>definition.
>
>Jojo
>
& that's pretty much my personal definition of it too. That's why I brought up BGC as a possible
example(& I did mean BGC 2040), it seems to me that's exactly what the Knight Sabers do.....whatever
they feel like, especially Priss. :)
Shadow6865
"A woman who acts like a man" or has a "we don't need men" attitude is the
_stereotypical_ definition of a feminist. Your personal definition is closer
to the mark. >>
You might laugh but there are women (they prefer the spelling womyn) who
actually act like this. If you do not believe me then I suggest you visit my
college or any number of colleges in the US with liberal leanings. There are
women on my campus who act with hostility if you do things like hold doors open
for them. Which is strange because my mother considers herself a feminist but
she told me to always hold doors open for people.
M Arnold
> Personally, I think positive female role models should be ones
> who are able to do whatever they want. If they feel like
Perhaps to comment on this, some things I have to ask with the 'powerful' or
'independent' women characters in Japanese media is, how do they get their
power? Other than power, what do they have? Before we can have fully
engaging female characters with jet planes, robot suits or magical wands, we
need to see that women are normal, plain, human, and just as psychologically
well-rounded (or ill-rounded) as "us", the men. Respect for the person, not
their mysterous strength. A lot of anime skips that, giving us powerful and
independent but otherwise hollow or cheaply stereotyped female characters.
Anime that tries to feature 'normal' women rarely gives them power at all.
Strength and 'independent' character is left in (or left out of) fantasy.
What have I seen that hasn't been glued to this pattern... well, Omohide Poro
Poro. Probably Eva and Kare-Kano. Simply dressing a woman up as a
superhero, spaceship captain, magical queen, excellent cook/housewife or even
a company president without giving her *life* as a person isn't going to make
her a statement for social progress in my book.
On the other hand, creating a pure 'victim' and disguising that as humanism
might be just as bad. What do you folks think about Mizoguchi's women?
> independent, so be it. Any person who is able to act on her own
> free will (nothing forcing her to do otherwise) is what I
> consider a feminist.
Keep in mind there are a lot of anti-feminists out there who are happy to
argue that women are and have been housewives because that's what they always
wanted to do; that women have always had free will...
Mike A
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Christian Smith
wrote:
> A lot of anime skips that, giving us powerful and
>independent but otherwise hollow or cheaply stereotyped female characters.
>Anime that tries to feature 'normal' women rarely gives them power at all.
>Strength and 'independent' character is left in (or left out of) fantasy.
>What have I seen that hasn't been glued to this pattern... well, Omohide Poro
>Poro. Probably Eva and Kare-Kano.
Eva may be postmodern and it may be influential, but one thing
it is not is an effective vehicle for characterization. The most
succinct summation I've been able to devise is that it's Anno's deeply
felt hatemail, addressed to the part of himself that loves anime.
KareKano is loads better, but if you're going to pick a shojo
series my dime's on Brother, Dear Brother. Yes, the heroine is the
typical 70s-shojo nice-girl-who-gets-shit-on, but the show is about
her coming to power, and denying the power of the influential social
groups that originally wield it. Not overtly feminist perhaps, but
Ikeda gets closer than, say, CLAMP.
Though not as artistically good, Go-Kinjo Monogotari is less
predictable than Anno's attempt as well. Not as full of itself,
either.
>Simply dressing a woman up as a
>superhero, spaceship captain, magical queen, excellent cook/housewife or even
>a company president without giving her *life* as a person isn't going to make
>her a statement for social progress in my book.
Statements like this are why people who dismiss you out of
hand are dorks. (Not that you can't be irritating, but hey, look who's
talking.)
I second this opinion wholeheartedly. There are of course
people who will say, "Now you've added this criterion too? Will you
never be satisfied?!" To which my answer is:
Of course not. Why should I ever quit asking for more? It just
helps to be realistic about your chances of getting it.
>On the other hand, creating a pure 'victim' and disguising that as humanism
>might be just as bad. What do you folks think about Mizoguchi's women?
Powerful, but hardly people--more like deeply felt images. I
don't know, I'm very iffy about that assessment; it feels too
personal, possibly not motivated by what's on screen. I can't come up
with a cogent reason why I'd think that, so I'm probably wrong. But it
definitely does *feel* like he's more interested in the geometric
arrangement of anomie than in contingent, coping human beings.
I do want to see his Lupin movie, though....
My name is Christian Smith. I welcome your comments.
lyabi...@mindspring.com
"I just want people to see my action heart."
Christian Smith
<macross3...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
>What about Rei Ayanami? Anno has acknowledged that she is the
>worst kind of poster girl for feminism. Heh, and yet she was so
>popular in Japan (America, too...)
Slightly incorrect. Anno has *averred* that she is the worst
kind of poster girl for feminism (I assume, since I haven't seen the
statement). He's wrong. She's a pliant set of tits.
Hence the popularity....
Shadow6865
Any female anti-feminists exist? I'm sure there are some... >>
There are some but from what I have seen, they tend to be Conservative
Religious fundamentalists for some reason. However I do know plenty of women
who want or wish to stay at home when they have kids and go back to work when
the kid reaches some age like 11 or 12.
Ken Arromdee
>> Personally, I think positive female role models should be ones
>> who are able to do whatever they want. If they feel like
>Perhaps to comment on this, some things I have to ask with the 'powerful' or
>'independent' women characters in Japanese media is, how do they get their
>power? Other than power, what do they have? Before we can have fully
>engaging female characters with jet planes, robot suits or magical wands, we
>need to see that women are normal, plain, human, and just as psychologically
>well-rounded (or ill-rounded) as "us", the men.
You would never dream of saying that male characters are not powerful if they
are "cheaply stereotyped" with respect to characterization, but they have robot
suits that let them save the day.
This is a blatant double standard which lets you say that female characters are
not powerful and male characters are even when they're treated in the same way.
--
Ken Arromdee / arro...@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
"Eventually all companies are replaced." --Bill Gates, October 1999
Ken Arromdee
> Slightly incorrect. Anno has *averred* that she [Rei] is the worst
>kind of poster girl for feminism (I assume, since I haven't seen the
>statement). He's wrong. She's a pliant set of tits.
> Hence the popularity....
I don't buy that.
The attraction of men to Ayanami Rei, I think, has a pretty good comparison
with the attraction of women to Mr. Spock. Characters of either sex who
repress their emotions are admired and considered attractive by the opposite
sex (especially when they also have an exotic physical appearance like stark
red eyes or pointed ears.)
And in both cases, this was completely unintended by the creator of the
series.
It's not a gender-specific thing nor is it due to some desire for submissive
women.
Ken Arromdee
>>Simply dressing a woman up as a
>>superhero, spaceship captain, magical queen, excellent cook/housewife or even
>>a company president without giving her *life* as a person isn't going to make
>>her a statement for social progress in my book.
> Statements like this are why people who dismiss you out of
>hand are dorks. (Not that you can't be irritating, but hey, look who's
>talking.)
> I second this opinion wholeheartedly. There are of course
>people who will say, "Now you've added this criterion too? Will you
>never be satisfied?!" To which my answer is:
> Of course not. Why should I ever quit asking for more?
If you're just talking because you like to hear yourself speak, you can ask
for anything you want. But if you're talking in order to make a point using
some intelligence, you have to be consistent, which this is not.
If a woman in a series is given power but doesn't have a "life as a person",
that is no different from a huge number of male characters. That is still
equality; being equally bad is still being equal. If equality is a "statement
for social progress", then Mike is *wrong*.
Keltikat2
>>heroines whom are seen as good women in Japan are hated in America.
>>Miaka is an example of this. I think its because certain heroines are
>>strong are the exact opposite of what women in America expect in a
>>heroine.
>
such anime coming out in the USA. I find that with the exception of the now
airing Garlic Jr saga on Toonami saturday mornings, all the female roles do is
cry and whine about getting wrinkles and how they don't have enough hair spray
myself. :) Slayers however is another matter. I like the idea of a woman who
has the brains and the strength to stand up to and smack around men that try
to opress others or for that matter women who will stand up for what they
believe in at the final confrontation no matter the cost to themselves.
Perhaps the greatest truth of feminism, at least in my opinion as a woman, is
that we must always stand for what we believe is right and just. That means
irregaurdless to what general population and public pressures may try to
dictate to us. We should be allowed the right to be sexual if we wish. We
should be capable of defending ourselves against violence without being
penalised in situations that merit it. I think in America it is safer to say
that women wish they could be like many of the anime women shown, but are
afraid of repercussions that follow. Look at women who have actively fought
back against abusive spouces and were sent to death row for having killed the
abuser before he could kill her! I think that is enough said. :0[~
Sailor Naboo
I think the only anti-feminists are people that don't understand what
the word actually means. Actually, I'm going to change that because I'm
not exactly sure what it means anymore, but I know what it DOESN'T
mean. The radical feminists of the 70s included so much in their agenda
(marriage for lesbians, for example) that it alienated the movement from
the mainstream who just weren't ready for such a concept. I guess they
had some such a long way (the Equal Pay Act of 1963, for example) that
they thought they could fight for every little thing they wanted at
once. It takes a war or some other catastrophic event for a society to
change at once.
I don't think there is a woman out there (in the US anyway) who thinks,
"You know, I really should fight to make sure us women can't vote!"
There may be some that think married women should stay home, but I doubt
they think that men should get paid more than single women for the same
job. That makes them feminists too, but misconceptions about the word
makes it so they don't know they are.
Kyoko
--
------------------------------------------------
|********aka Pretty Soldier Sailor Naboo*********|
|******Fighting the Dark Side by Moonlight!******|
|*"In the name of George Lucas, I'll punish you"*|
------------------------------------------------
David Johnston
>
>
> >Simply dressing a woman up as a
> >superhero, spaceship captain, magical queen, excellent cook/housewife or even
> >a company president without giving her *life* as a person isn't going to make
> >her a statement for social progress in my book.
>
> Statements like this are why people who dismiss you out of
> hand are dorks. (Not that you can't be irritating, but hey, look who's
> talking.)
Statements like that are why he should be dismissed.
Why is it that only women require this "life as a person"?
Have the hordes of male characters who are two-dimensional or
stereotypical somehow vanished or been overlooked? What is Geist's life
as a person? How deep is Duke Togo? Who is crazier, Freeman, or his
wife? Which is more stereotypical, Leon's watered down City Hunter
impression, or Priss's biker chick routine?
"You should have good characterisation, not bad characterisation", is
fundamentally an inane truism. Seeing the shallowness and stereotypical
nature of anime females and overlooking or regarding as less important
the same quality in anime males, is just sexism masquerading as
enlightenment.
David Johnston
>
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:45:55 -0700, Jojo
> <macross3...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> >What about Rei Ayanami? Anno has acknowledged that she is the
> >worst kind of poster girl for feminism. Heh, and yet she was so
> >popular in Japan (America, too...)
>
> kind of poster girl for feminism (I assume, since I haven't seen the
> statement). He's wrong. She's a pliant set of tits.
> Hence the popularity....
>
Bull. She's popular because emotionless people always have an
attraction to anyone fascinated by what hidden depths and potentials
might like behind that icey exterior.
Dennis C Hwang
M Arnold <n934...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
> Jojo <macross3...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I think positive female role models should be ones
>> who are able to do whatever they want. If they feel like
>
>Perhaps to comment on this, some things I have to ask with the 'powerful' or
>'independent' women characters in Japanese media is, how do they get their
>power? Other than power, what do they have? Before we can have fully
>engaging female characters with jet planes, robot suits or magical wands, we
>need to see that women are normal, plain, human, and just as psychologically
>independent but otherwise hollow or cheaply stereotyped female characters.
>Anime that tries to feature 'normal' women rarely gives them power at all.
>Strength and 'independent' character is left in (or left out of) fantasy.
>What have I seen that hasn't been glued to this pattern... well, Omohide Poro
>superhero, spaceship captain, magical queen, excellent cook/housewife or even
>a company president without giving her *life* as a person isn't going to make
>her a statement for social progress in my book.
Well, I have to thank you for finally (after years of lurking on this
group) stating something close to your criteria for an acceptable strong
female character (as opposed to "Men in Skirts", I suppose).
But what you point out as lacking in portrayals of powerful female
characters could just as easily be shown to be lacking in portrayals of
many *male* characters. In stories in which the possession of such powers
is important, the fact of having power is often central to the plot, while
background characterization is reduced to archetype (the "noble leader",
the "maverick second-in-command", etc.), stereotype, or is essentially
nonexistent.
In short, it seems less a failing of "social consciousness" and more a
difference in emphasis on what the writers/creators think is important to
the story...
>On the other hand, creating a pure 'victim' and disguising that as humanism
>might be just as bad. What do you folks think about Mizoguchi's women?
I'm not familiar with Mizoguchi. Can you provide some examples?
>> independent, so be it. Any person who is able to act on her own
>> free will (nothing forcing her to do otherwise) is what I
>> consider a feminist.
>
>Keep in mind there are a lot of anti-feminists out there who are happy to
>argue that women are and have been housewives because that's what they always
>wanted to do; that women have always had free will...
The unfortunate accompaniment are the "feminists" I knew in college who
eagerly derided women who said they wanted to be housewives, because they
couldn't possibly believe *anyone* would want that...
--
--Dennis
*************************************************************
* dch...@itsa.ucsf.edu * xenopathologist at large! *
*************************************************************
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> lyabi...@mindspring.com (Christian Smith) wrote:
> > Slightly incorrect. Anno has *averred* that she [Rei] is the worst
> >kind of poster girl for feminism (I assume, since I haven't seen the
> >statement). He's wrong. She's a pliant set of tits.
> > Hence the popularity....
>
> I don't buy that.
>
> The attraction of men to Ayanami Rei, I think, has a pretty good comparison
> with the attraction of women to Mr. Spock. Characters of either sex who
> repress their emotions are admired and considered attractive by the opposite
> sex (especially when they also have an exotic physical appearance like stark
> red eyes or pointed ears.)
>
> And in both cases, this was completely unintended by the creator of the
> series.
>
> It's not a gender-specific thing nor is it due to some desire for submissive
> women.
> --
I do remember, however, an interview in Animerica wherein
it's either Hideaki Anno or some other Gainax guy (designer?)
who said that (based on his observations)
while the Japanese fans tend to prefer Rei because she is
quiet, non-threatening, traditional (or something along those lines)
and while the American fans tend to prefer Misato
because she's assertive and independent,
that instead he prefers Asuka because she's cute or something.
I guess it's a bit surprising that a Japanese would say
something that kinda reinforces a stereotypical view of tastes,
especially coming from a Gainax production team member,
but if that's his personal observations,
then he should call it as he sees it.
Laters. =)
Stan
----------
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | | www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
/ \/ \| _ | |\ | uhura.cc.rochester.edu/~sd005e
/___/\/___ |__| |__|___| \ ___|
Shadow6865
Of course they do not think like this. But there are women who do think that
a "woman's proper place is in the home" and they do not think women should seek
careers.
David Johnston
>
> Shadow6865 wrote:
> >
> > <<
> > Any female anti-feminists exist? I'm sure there are some... >>
> >
> > There are some but from what I have seen, they tend to be Conservative
> > Religious fundamentalists for some reason. However I do know plenty of women
> > who want or wish to stay at home when they have kids and go back to work when
> > the kid reaches some age like 11 or 12.
>
> I think the only anti-feminists are people that don't understand what
> the word actually means. Actually, I'm going to change that because I'm
There is in fact an organisation of "anti-feminists". Of
course they think of themselves as just being pro-family, but they are strongly
opposed to women taking on non "traditional" roles such as working out of
the home.
> not exactly sure what it means anymore, but I know what it DOESN'T
> mean.
Are you sure?
The radical feminists of the 70s included so much in their agenda
> (marriage for lesbians, for example) that it alienated the movement from
> the mainstream who just weren't ready for such a concept. I guess they
> had some such a long way (the Equal Pay Act of 1963, for example) that
> they thought they could fight for every little thing they wanted at
> once. It takes a war or some other catastrophic event for a society to
> change at once.
>
> I don't think there is a woman out there (in the US anyway) who thinks,
> "You know, I really should fight to make sure us women can't vote!"
That's because women have now had the vote for a very long time. At the
time there were quite a few women opposed to the deleterious moral effects
of allowing women to take part in public affairs.
> There may be some that think married women should stay home, but I doubt
> they think that men should get paid more than single women for the same
> job.
Don't you know those men have families to support? I doubt there are
many women who hold that position these days but I'm pretty sure that
there still exists a conservative fringe longing for the good old days
when a job was something a woman held to occupy herself until she could
get a man and a baby.
>That makes them feminists too,
Only if they actually stand up and say or do something about it.
but misconceptions about the word
> makes it so they don't know they are.
Language and politics are living things. Just because something is a "liberal"
or "conservative", or "feminist" position in 1950, doesn't mean that it is the
same thing 50 years later. That is why older people are so frequently "conservative".
Their positions need not necessarily have changed when the world has changed around
them.
Shadow6865
The unfortunate accompaniment are the "feminists" I knew in college who eagerly
derided women who said they wanted to be housewives, because they
couldn't possibly believe *anyone* would want that... >>
I never knew anyone who said they wanted to be a housewife for their entire
lives but I do know some women that want to be housewives when their kids are
young. There are however women at my college who say they never want to have
kids because they think kids will ruin their careers. Hopefully they are going
through a phase.
Shadow6865
who said that (based on his observations)
while the Japanese fans tend to prefer Rei because she is quiet,
non-threatening, traditional (or something along those lines) and while the
American fans tend to prefer Misato >>
I have this said before about other series. The one that comes to mind is
Tenchi Muyo. I think Hayashi-sensei said that Americans prefer Ryoko because
she is like an American woman and Japanese fans prefer Aeka because she is like
a Japanese woman.
Shadow
American but prefers Aeka. Might like Misato more than Rei.
Sailor Naboo
>
> << "You know, I really should fight to make sure us women can't vote!" >>
>
> a "woman's proper place is in the home" and they do not think women should seek
> careers.
That's the point, there are lots of levels of feminists. Whether they
like it or not, the "woman's place is in the home" people have attitudes
about some feminist things that were once radical (women voting, women
owning property) and in some cases criminal (access to birth control
information).
Kyoko
Jojo
100...@roundtable.cif.rochester.edu>, "S.t.A.n.L.e.E"
>who said that (based on his observations)
>while the Japanese fans tend to prefer Rei because she is
>quiet, non-threatening, traditional (or something along those
lines)
>and while the American fans tend to prefer Misato
>that instead he prefers Asuka because she's cute or something.
>
That was Anno, that's why I mentioned it. I even have the
magazine (Animerica) where he said it. He said he liked Asuka
because she was cute, and he also commented (or rather wondered)
on the Japanese being intimidated by strong, assertive women.
Jojo
lyabi...@mindspring.com (Christian Smith) wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:19:25 GMT, David Johnston
><rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
>>> Slightly incorrect. Anno has *averred* that she is
the worst
>>> kind of poster girl for feminism (I assume, since I haven't
seen the
>>> statement). He's wrong. She's a pliant set of tits.
>>> Hence the popularity....
>>>
>>
>>attraction to anyone fascinated by what hidden depths and
potentials
>>might like behind that icey exterior.
>
sentient
>robot that looked like a toaster, for example--would she be as
popular
>with fans? Of course not. There may be other reasons she's
popular,
>but beyond even the slimmest doubt, the primary one is that
she's a
>svelte teen with enormous tits.
For the record, I have examined the bodies on Eva and have come
to the conclusion that all their tits are the same size--
although Misato's are probably slightly bigger.
Jojo
career,
>wants to marry a rich guy to support her, even as a housewife
at times.
>Is that anti-feminist, do you think?
>
No, that's just lazy.
An anti-feminist female would be a traditionalist, preaching to
her daughters that they shouldn't think on their own, and that's
the man's job. Just look pretty, smile, and let everyone else
make your decisions for you. That's about as close as I can
think of, and there ARE women like that out there.
Rose's mother (in Titanic), for instance, would be a close
example, although she herself does not seem to practice the
ideas she preaches.
Christian Smith
wrote:
>You would never dream of saying that male characters are not powerful if they
>are "cheaply stereotyped" with respect to characterization, but they have robot
>suits that let them save the day.
Ummm...I have in fact said this very thing, provided we use
"powerful" in the right way. Sure, women like the Knight Sabers who
beat the shit out of you are powerful in the story world. But as
emblems of real women, they are male sexual fantasies. The reverse is
also true: the dude from Ninja Scroll kicks major ass. But as an image
of a real man, he's an empty shell.
Please don't assert things about what I might or might not
say. Ken, you would never dream of saying that women should be
protected from rape.
Is that honest?
>This is a blatant double standard which lets you say that female characters are
>not powerful and male characters are even when they're treated in the same way.
No. To support this assertion, you'd need to produce a quote
of mine where I say, in short, that a man is powerful because he can
kick ass. I think you'll be hardpressed to find such a quote.
Christian Smith
wrote:
>If a woman in a series is given power but doesn't have a "life as a person",
>that is no different from a huge number of male characters. That is still
>equality; being equally bad is still being equal. If equality is a "statement
>for social progress", then Mike is *wrong*.
Fallacy. Being equally bad is *not* a statement for social
progress. Otherwise, neo-Nazi programs endorsing race hatred and films
that condoned rape would both be statements for social progress. Is
that what you're asserting?
Therefore Mike may be right. I think he is. Art that portrays
cheap stereotypes of men or women is useless in social terms. Women
and men are probably portrayed as cheap stereotypes an equal amount.
But the cheap stereotype of women includes "...and they're just not
worth much except as breeders."
Christian Smith
wrote:
>lyabi...@mindspring.com (Christian Smith) wrote:
>> Slightly incorrect. Anno has *averred* that she [Rei] is the worst
>>kind of poster girl for feminism (I assume, since I haven't seen the
>>statement). He's wrong. She's a pliant set of tits.
>> Hence the popularity....
>
>I don't buy that.
>
>The attraction of men to Ayanami Rei, I think, has a pretty good comparison
>with the attraction of women to Mr. Spock. Characters of either sex who
>repress their emotions are admired and considered attractive by the opposite
>sex (especially when they also have an exotic physical appearance like stark
>red eyes or pointed ears.)
Spock does not appear naked or in skintight costume for most
of his screen time. Spock does not lie there willingly while Kirk
falls on top of him and spilled underwear covers them both (except in
fanfic, of course).
>And in both cases, this was completely unintended by the creator of the
>series.
In one case. Anno *wants* the chicks to be cute; he himself
prefers Asuka, but he's perfectly willing to accept that others prefer
Rei or Misato (see other posts in this thread).
>It's not a gender-specific thing nor is it due to some desire for submissive
>women.
Anno thinks it is; he thinks Japanese guys want the submissive
woman more and American guys want the brash, bossy one. I think he's
wrong, since obviously Rei has a following here in the US--but what
does it say about his subtlety as a director if he believes such
generalized theories?
Christian Smith
>> Slightly incorrect. Anno has *averred* that she is the worst
>> kind of poster girl for feminism (I assume, since I haven't seen the
>> statement). He's wrong. She's a pliant set of tits.
>> Hence the popularity....
>>
>
>Bull. She's popular because emotionless people always have an
>attraction to anyone fascinated by what hidden depths and potentials
>might like behind that icey exterior.
Umm...if she were *just* an icy exterior--let's say a sentient
robot that looked like a toaster, for example--would she be as popular
with fans? Of course not. There may be other reasons she's popular,
but beyond even the slimmest doubt, the primary one is that she's a
svelte teen with enormous tits.
My name is Christian Smith. I welcome your comments.
Ken Arromdee
>>If a woman in a series is given power but doesn't have a "life as a person",
>>that is no different from a huge number of male characters. That is still
>>equality; being equally bad is still being equal. If equality is a "statement
>>for social progress", then Mike is *wrong*.
> Fallacy. Being equally bad is *not* a statement for social
>progress. Otherwise, neo-Nazi programs endorsing race hatred and films
>that condoned rape would both be statements for social progress. Is
>that what you're asserting?
Mike brought up the "statement for social progress" bit. What just about
everyone *else* was talking about was only about social progress in the sense
that it is more progressive to have men and women equal than to not do so.
Something can show men and women to be equal and still be anti-progress in
other ways that don't have to do with equality of the sexes.
> Therefore Mike may be right. I think he is. Art that portrays
>cheap stereotypes of men or women is useless in social terms. Women
>and men are probably portrayed as cheap stereotypes an equal amount.
>But the cheap stereotype of women includes "...and they're just not
>worth much except as breeders."
No, it doesn't. Mike was talking about anime which, for instance, shows a
woman as a robot pilot but doesn't give her much of a personality. This is
a cheap stereotype, but it is a gender-neutral cheap stereotype and certainly
does not portray women as breeders.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> <<
> The unfortunate accompaniment are the "feminists" I knew in college who eagerly
> derided women who said they wanted to be housewives, because they
> couldn't possibly believe *anyone* would want that... >>
>
> I never knew anyone who said they wanted to be a housewife for their entire
> lives but I do know some women that want to be housewives when their kids are
> young. There are however women at my college who say they never want to have
> kids because they think kids will ruin their careers. Hopefully they are going
> through a phase.
>
I know a friend who, despite going to college and wanting a career,
wants to marry a rich guy to support her, even as a housewife at times.
Is that anti-feminist, do you think?
Laters. =)
David Watson
> In article <390a5a70...@news.mindspring.com>,
> lyabi...@mindspring.com (Christian Smith) wrote:
>>robot that looked like a toaster, for example--would she be as popular
>>with fans? Of course not. There may be other reasons she's popular,
>>but beyond even the slimmest doubt, the primary one is that she's a
>>svelte teen with enormous tits.
> to the conclusion that all their tits are the same size--
> although Misato's are probably slightly bigger.
I would say that Misato, being double the age of Rei and Asuka, are
definitely bigger (not enough to get on my website, but WTF). But I have
also noticed that Asuka is prone to pretty obvious state variation. In
the scenes where she sleepwalks into Shinji's bed early in the series (how
about that view, folks?) and leans over Shinji by the pool in the Magma
Diver ep (where she also draws attention to them whilst explaining thermal
expansion), they're bigger than usual.
Watson
Who shook his head and questioned his purpose in life while writing the above.
--
Dave Watson, Severed Heads Liberation Front (Re-release the _Stretcher_ EP!)
Frezier Balzoff (Ottawa), Ontario, Canada Email--shlf [at] ncf [dot] ca
My music and anime webpage: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/
FOUR MORE YEARS OF MIKE HARRIS' FASCISM?? ONTARIO! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
Ken Arromdee
>>You would never dream of saying that male characters are not powerful if they
>>are "cheaply stereotyped" with respect to characterization, but they have robot
>>suits that let them save the day.
>of mine where I say, in short, that a man is powerful because he can
>kick ass. I think you'll be hardpressed to find such a quote.
Well, there are several occasions where Mike refers to women's lack of power in
anime where he *does* mean physical power:
There's that quote from Levy's book: "The magical girl [sic] subgenre [is]
based upon the idea that women should conceal their power..." which clearly
refers to 'power' in the sense of magical powers, not strong characterization.
"For Newitz's article, I don't see why it's not a sufficiet level. Her
comments on AMG seem to be perceptive enough--even if she didn't watch
past the first episode (we don't know yet), the character(s) play(s) out
the (sex) role(s) she describes. Belldandy's willingness to sacrifice her
power (permanently hide, in a sense) to be with Keiichi, for example."
There's a whole bunch of those where Mike says that shows like Oh My Goddess
deny women power, and he's talking about physical power.
Or "A-ko was comedy; a superhero parody. Cute girl + power = a joke." He's
saying that the power doesn't count because it's not serious, not because it's
physical.
"The Eva robots are a straight power-fantasy; athletic, destructive power -
easily distinguished enemies to be subdued by direct application of violence.
It's all to the credit of Eva that it subverts that power-fantasy." (Implying
that regular giant robot shows follow that power fantasy, with 'power' referring
to physical power.)
(And he also says that Eva can only do that because the main character is male:
"I don't think Lain *could* be a power fantasy like Eva, with a young female
lead character like that. The authors chose to use a girl, but the obvious
difference in "power" between the two shows falls simply into the conventions
of how gender is generally drawn in animation from Japan.")
M Arnold on Escaflowne:
"Maybe it's aimed at both, but it still sticks the characters with separate,
"gender"-appropriate roles. The lead boy is a heroic, robot-piloting warrior
and the lead girl is a "magical girl"...""
Ken Arromdee
>>The attraction of men to Ayanami Rei, I think, has a pretty good comparison
>>with the attraction of women to Mr. Spock. Characters of either sex who
>>repress their emotions are admired and considered attractive by the opposite
>>sex (especially when they also have an exotic physical appearance like stark
>>red eyes or pointed ears.)
> Spock does not appear naked or in skintight costume for most
>of his screen time.
Rei does not appear in skintight costume unusually often compared to lots of
female characters who don't have as many opposite-sex fans as Rei. Heck,
Asuka uses a skintight costume.
>Spock does not lie there willingly while Kirk
>falls on top of him and spilled underwear covers them both (except in
>fanfic, of course).
Oh, come on now. You're describing a scene from one show and saying that this
exact scene doesn't appear in the other show. Of course it doesn't--you've
described the scene with such specificity that the only way another show could
use it is if one of the shows was directly plagiarizing the other.
If you're going to be a little more general, there are certainly sexually
charged scenes in Star Trek which involve Spock.
Ken Arromdee
>>Bull. She's popular because emotionless people always have an
>>attraction to anyone fascinated by what hidden depths and potentials
>>might like behind that icey exterior.
>robot that looked like a toaster, for example--would she be as popular
>with fans? Of course not.
The same could be said for Spock. If Spock were, oh, a talking dolphin with
exactly the same personality, *he* wouldn't be as popular among fans of the
opposite sex either. Does that prove that it is not Spock's personality which
makes him attractive?
David Johnston
>
> <<
> The unfortunate accompaniment are the "feminists" I knew in college who eagerly
> derided women who said they wanted to be housewives, because they
> couldn't possibly believe *anyone* would want that... >>
>
> I never knew anyone who said they wanted to be a housewife for their entire
> lives but I do know some women that want to be housewives when their kids are
> young. There are however women at my college who say they never want to have
> kids because they think kids will ruin their careers. Hopefully they are going
> through a phase.
Why do you hope that? Is there a shortage of mothers?
David Johnston
>
> << ideaki Anno or some other Gainax guy (designer?)
> who said that (based on his observations)
> while the Japanese fans tend to prefer Rei because she is quiet,
> non-threatening, traditional (or something along those lines) and while the
> American fans tend to prefer Misato >>
>
> Tenchi Muyo. I think Hayashi-sensei said that Americans prefer Ryoko because
> she is like an American woman and Japanese fans prefer Aeka because she is like
> a Japanese woman.
Which only goes to show that he has an odd idea of what American women
are like.
David Johnston
Using 1900 as our benchmark doesn't strike me as useful.
David Johnston
>
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:19:25 GMT, David Johnston
> <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
> >> Slightly incorrect. Anno has *averred* that she is the worst
> >> kind of poster girl for feminism (I assume, since I haven't seen the
> >> statement). He's wrong. She's a pliant set of tits.
> >> Hence the popularity....
> >>
> >
> >attraction to anyone fascinated by what hidden depths and potentials
> >might like behind that icey exterior.
>
> Umm...if she were *just* an icy exterior--let's say a sentient
> robot that looked like a toaster, for example--would she be as popular
> with fans?
The emotionless character has to seem human enough to give the
impression that they actually have these hidden depths
and potentials. That they are in fact emotionless people, not
just things.
On the other hand, actually HAL was quite popular with the fans, and
he matches your description in every particular.
Of course not. There may be other reasons she's popular,
> but beyond even the slimmest doubt, the primary one is that she's a
> svelte teen with enormous tits.
And this makes her different from Asuka how?
Ben Cantrick
Christian Smith <lyabi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>It's not a gender-specific thing nor is it due to some desire for submissive
>>women.
>
> Anno thinks it is; he thinks Japanese guys want the submissive
>woman more and American guys want the brash, bossy one. I think he's
>wrong, since obviously Rei has a following here in the US--but what
>does it say about his subtlety as a director if he believes such
>generalized theories?
Considering Rei "I'm a good little submissive girl" Ayanami's popularity,
I am forced to at least consider the possiblity that Anno is right.
-Ben
--
Ben Cantrick (mac...@dim.com) | Yes, the BGC dubs still suck.
BGC Nukem: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/bgcnukem.html
The Spamdogs: http://www.dim.com/~mackys/spamdogs
Am I ranting? I hope so. My ranting gets raves.
Benjamin D. Hutchins
Christian Smith <lyabi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>with fans? Of course not. There may be other reasons she's popular,
>but beyond even the slimmest doubt, the primary one is that she's a
>svelte teen with enormous tits.
... "enormous"?
Um, yeah, uh huh.
--G.
--
_O_ Benjamin D. Hutchins, cofounder, Continuity Line Editor, webmaster
[. .] Eyrie Productions, Unlimited - An AnimeTech Limited Company -><-
- Cyberleader Darul says: "0 dB SPL is the lowest level of 1KHz tone
the average person can detect." WWW: http://www.eyrie-productions.com/
David Watson
> In article <390a5a70...@news.mindspring.com>,
> Christian Smith <lyabi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>with fans? Of course not. There may be other reasons she's popular,
>>but beyond even the slimmest doubt, the primary one is that she's a
>>svelte teen with enormous tits.
> ... "enormous"?
>
> Um, yeah, uh huh.
True. She was given a nice backside, though.
KaiN ZerO
Lee Ratner wrote:
> My purpose in anime and feminism was too see why so many shojo
> heroines whom are seen as good women in Japan are hated in America.
> Miaka is an example of this. I think its because certain heroines are
> strong are the exact opposite of what women in America expect in a
> heroine.
Miaka? What? I only saw up to I think Ep. 26...but from what I can tell,
she can be funny at times, but mostly whiny and clueless. How the hell
can she be a heroine, when, in a dangerous situation, she either makes it
worse or calls for help (mainly Tamahome). Example...when she met the
tiger, I was thinkin "finally, she's gonna kick some ass" after she did
all the funny pantomime sequences or playing dead, when she held up the
wooden stick. but no.... she hides behind it, cries, and tamahome comes
out with his trademark flying jump kick..."you call yourselves men?" i
hope that, from ep. 26, her newly acquired powers have something to do
with ass-kicking....
--i want more asskicked kainzero
Galen Musbach
Ken Arromdee wrote:
>
> "The Eva robots are a straight power-fantasy; athletic, destructive power -
> easily distinguished enemies to be subdued by direct application of violence.
> It's all to the credit of Eva that it subverts that power-fantasy." (Implying
> that regular giant robot shows follow that power fantasy, with 'power' referring
> to physical power.)
>
> (And he also says that Eva can only do that because the main character is male:
> "I don't think Lain *could* be a power fantasy like Eva, with a young female
> lead character like that. The authors chose to use a girl, but the obvious
> difference in "power" between the two shows falls simply into the conventions
> of how gender is generally drawn in animation from Japan.")
>
But the main character of Brain Powerd is a girl, isn't it?
-Galen
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Lee Ratner
wrote:
miaka suffers from the anime effect. That's when an anime reduces a
great character into a ple of the original because of time issues.
Tamahome and Hotohori also suffer from this but less so. The manga
Miaka is much better.
Shadow6865
I know a friend who, despite going to college and wanting a career, wants to
marry a rich guy to support her, even as a housewife at times.
Is that anti-feminist, do you think? >>
I am not sure if it is anti-feminist but I am not thrilled about people who
place money as a top criteria for marriage prospects.
Shadow6865
Why do you hope that? Is there a shortage of mothers?
>>
Because it is a rather silly thing to say that "you don't want kids" I am
sure some of them are very serious about not having kids ever but most are
saying out some sort of "it's cool to say I don't want kids" standpoint. I also
think many of them would make great mothers.
Bob Macfie
Keltikat2 wrote:
>
> Personally I wish I could see stronger heroines in dragon ball z and
> other such anime coming out in the USA.
We may need to broaden our definitions of power if we are to survive -
there is nothing more dangerous than people who perceive themselves to
have insufficient power (regardless of the truth).
> I find that with the exception of the now airing Garlic Jr saga on > Toonami saturday mornings, all the female roles do is cry and whine > about getting wrinkles and how they don't have enough hair spray > myself. :)
Yes, that can get to be annoying. I've not seen much of this series,
but is it my imagination that the women do have a surprising amount of
influ- ence despite that? IOW, power isn't always about physical
strength - or even sexuality. Then again, I may be reading something
that isn't there again ...
> Slayers however is another matter. I like the idea of a woman who
> has the brains and the strength to stand up to and smack around men > that try to opress others ...
Never mind that her primary interests seem to be selfish, and she's not
above causing harm to innocents for the sake of expediency.
> ... or for that matter women who will stand up for what they believe in > at the final confrontation no matter the cost to themselves.
>
But most of the time Lina's only concern seems to be looking out for
#1. Her quest isn't noble - but I'm grateful for that. A noble Lina
would be as boring as all get out.
> Perhaps the greatest truth of feminism, at least in my opinion as a > woman, is that we must always stand for what we believe is right and > just.
Shouldn't that be a premise of any decent belief system?
Ultimately, however, feminism, like so many other movements, is about
power. There are a lot of different ways that such quests for power are
interpreted. Sometimes all that is sought is a fair share (which then
leads to arguments about what constitutes a "fair" share). Sometimes it
becomes an "us or them" argument. And sometimes it gets interpreted as a
quest for each person to do (in this case) her own thing.
> That means regardless of what general population and public pressures
> may try to dictate to us.
Take a look at the life of Socrates sometime.
> We should be allowed the right to be sexual if we wish.
Only if we are willing to pay the consequences of that - and I will ad-
mit that the social consequences are sometimes unacceptable.
> We should be capable of defending ourselves against violence without
> being penalised in situations that merit it.
Now there's a slippery slope. You are suggesting that a woman has the
right to defend herself, and you are correct. Later, however, we get to
the disturbing part.
> I think in America it is safer to say that women wish they could be
> like many of the anime women shown, but are afraid of repercussions
> that follow.
Repercussions are important to the social order, which isn't always a
bad thing. If a woman malleted me in real life, there'd be consequences
- no physical ones aside from an attempt to disarm her, but I'd be
willing to press charges. (Getting them to stick - that's trickier.
Police often refuse to accept that a man was assaulted by a woman
smaller than him - and are often trained to believe that it could only
have happened because he was abusing her.)
> Look at women who have actively fought back against abusive spouses
> and were sent to death row for having killed the abuser before he could > kill her! I think that is enough said. :0[~
Not by far. It is true that an abused spouse is often left with the
very unpleasant choice of kill or be killed - too many flee only to
eventually be hunted down and slain by their former spouse/partner. And
yet, to give a woman power to make this decision *without consequences*
would just be giving women a free ticket to commit murder.
(Would this power also be given to men who were abused by their wives?
Not until it is recognized that more man are stuck in abusive relation-
ships than society recognizes.)
I will agree that there is something wrong with a person being put on
death row for an act of self-defense (or any reason, but let's not start
that debate), but I don't feel you should be allowed to kill someone and
go unpunished by society either. Society has an obligation to protect
it- self; otherwise, how is it going to be able to protect anyone?
And I will admit that our civilization doesn't come close to protecting
everyone, but it does a better job than any one of us alone could do. If
it fails you, you are within your self-given rights to protect yourself
- but if you have to violate society's rules to do so, you must be
prepared to pay the consequences.
I would hope that women placed on death row (or in prison) were not put
there because they defended themselves against someone who was trying to
kill them, but because a jury honestly felt that they had committed an
act of murder. I know that isn't always the case - and I know women (and
men) who would have been alive if they hadn't trusted society to look
out for them.
But I also know people who have claimed abuse as a defense because it
was a way to get away with murder. And there have been cases in which it
is impossible to prove that the abused's life was in danger (unless you
admit that encountering other people is always a threat to your life). I
hate to admit that, but then I hate to admit that people do commit abuse
and murder.
Ultimately, people have to recognize that they have a right to look out
for themselves, but that society has a right to impose rules on the way
in which they may do so, and the right to impose consequences when some-
one decides to (justfiably or not) play outside those rules. In turn, we
have the right to fight to get those rules changed.
It can't be a perfect system - I'm a part of it, and I'm not perfect (I
won't claim to speak for the rest of you) - but it does work better than
the alternatives. Just remember to make yourself heard.
Bob Macfie
Ken Arromdee
>> "I don't think Lain *could* be a power fantasy like Eva, with a young female
>> lead character like that. The authors chose to use a girl, but the obvious
>> difference in "power" between the two shows falls simply into the conventions
>> of how gender is generally drawn in animation from Japan.")
>But the main character of Brain Powerd is a girl, isn't it?
To some extent (I wouldn't call her "the" main character, she just appears
first), but anyway I was just proving Mike said it, not expressing agreement.
Of course Brain Power'd was a response to Eva in some ways.
(By the way, just *why* do they spell it "Brain Powered" in the US?)
Carl Horn
should be borne in mind that the director makes it clear that Rei is not
a 14 year-old girl with a pale countenance, the body of a supermodel, and
a withdrawn personality. She is an artificial creation who is constantly
experimented upon and maintained by a regimen of drugs, and an agent
produced for a terrible mission of which she is one of the handful of
people on Earth who is cognizant. Many of the characters of EVA are more
disturbed and angered by Rei than finding her charming or pliable. In the
famous scene, for example, where Shinji ends up raining himself and Rei's
underwear on her, he ends up more frightened than aroused. The same scene
in most anime would have been played entirely for laughs, no doubt with a
slap and cry of "etchi" or "hentai."
I don't question at all the idea that Gainax used and promoted a sexual
image of Rei--that is, as Bobby Brown said, their prerogative. As EVA
became the most talked-about anime show in Japan in the 1990s, I myself
observed how the image of Rei was becoming a popular one among young
Japanese girls. The image of Rei was even reflected in Japan's sex
industry, where the "bandaged" look acquired a certain vogue for a while
(it was certainly not the first time--you could go to Sailor Moon strip
acts in Tokyo in the early '90s, complete with theme song playing as the
pigtails flew). But, again, I say that the *image* of Rei was popular--an
erotic image made of selected elements. That image is not the complete
Rei Ayanami portrayed by Anno in EVANGELION, whom I doubt that anyone
would want to be. The series is fairly up-front about the difference
between the subjective image of a person and the complete identity of a
person--indeed, that's the main subject of its last two episodes.
--Carl "Help me please/Burn the sorrow from your eyes" Horn
Jojo
gar...@netcom.com (Carl Horn) wrote:
>
>I don't question at all the idea that Gainax used and promoted
a sexual
>image of Rei--that is, as Bobby Brown said, their prerogative.
Was this promotion of Rei as a "sex symbol" planned from the
beginning, or did it kick in AFTER Gainax's realization that Rei
was becoming a popular character on her own?
Jojo
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Carl Horn
Jojo <macross3...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
>In article <8ef8bc$881$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>,
>gar...@netcom.com (Carl Horn) wrote:
>>
>>I don't question at all the idea that Gainax used and promoted
>a sexual
>>image of Rei--that is, as Bobby Brown said, their prerogative.
>
>Was this promotion of Rei as a "sex symbol" planned from the
>beginning, or did it kick in AFTER Gainax's realization that Rei
>was becoming a popular character on her own?
>
>Jojo
>
I would not doubt that it was planned from the beginning; Sadamoto is
perfectly capable of drawing non-glamorous, non-sexualized female
characters such as Leiqunni Nondelaiko. EVA is a creation of otaku, and
it is true that Gainax was well aware that certain scenes would become
"points of departure" for doujinshi. But Gainax insists on the dualism
that comes with self-knowledge--hence the wretchedness of these same cute
and sexy masks.
--Carl "And this is my kind of love/It's the kind that moves on" Horn
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> Galen Musbach <musb...@xtn.net> wrote:
> >> "I don't think Lain *could* be a power fantasy like Eva, with a young female
> >> lead character like that. The authors chose to use a girl, but the obvious
> >> difference in "power" between the two shows falls simply into the conventions
> >> of how gender is generally drawn in animation from Japan.")
> >But the main character of Brain Powerd is a girl, isn't it?
>
> To some extent (I wouldn't call her "the" main character, she just appears
> first), but anyway I was just proving Mike said it, not expressing agreement.
>
> Of course Brain Power'd was a response to Eva in some ways.
>
> (By the way, just *why* do they spell it "Brain Powered" in the US?)
> --
Maybe because people may perceive "Brain Powerd"
that the company is pulling a Dan Quayle potatoe? ^_^
Actually, "Brain Power'd" looks good,
but maybe the Japanese made the decision for us.
Christian Smith
wrote:
>Mike brought up the "statement for social progress" bit. What just about
>everyone *else* was talking about was only about social progress in the sense
>that it is more progressive to have men and women equal than to not do so.
>Something can show men and women to be equal and still be anti-progress in
>other ways that don't have to do with equality of the sexes.
Okay, I agree with that last sentence (obviously). I'm not so
sure that something is automatically more progressive if it shows men
and women as equal, no matter how they're portrayed. Maybe so, but it
doesn't seem very clear-cut to me. Salo, 120 Days of Sodom treats men
and women equally (badly), but I'd hardly consider it more progressive
than, say, End of Days where the women are objects.
>No, it doesn't. Mike was talking about anime which, for instance, shows a
>woman as a robot pilot but doesn't give her much of a personality. This is
>a cheap stereotype, but it is a gender-neutral cheap stereotype and certainly
>does not portray women as breeders.
Okay, yes, "robot pilot" is a sex-neutral stereotype. However,
female robot pilots are (almost?) never *just* robot pilots. They're
(almost?) always *sexy* robot pilots, or castrating-bitch robot
pilots. Bubblegum Crisis comes to mind, but even something as
supposedly avant and modern as Eva is guilty of the exact same thing.
I guess there might be anime with female robot pilots who don't hit
either of these stereotypes (which is why I put "almost" above), but
they're less usual. Dancougar perhaps? L-Gaim? Some flavors of Gundam?
There are female pilots in 70s 'bot shows who avoid the stereotype,
but they're shrinking, ineffectual violets (see Mazinger Z) because
10-year-old boys think of girls that way.
Christian Smith
wrote:
>Well, there are several occasions where Mike refers to women's lack of power in
>anime where he *does* mean physical power:
Okay. Please don't assume I agree with him on every point.
>"The Eva robots are a straight power-fantasy; athletic, destructive power -
>easily distinguished enemies to be subdued by direct application of violence.
>It's all to the credit of Eva that it subverts that power-fantasy."
I know Mike said this, not you, but I disagree strongly. Eva
does very little to subvert the power fantasy; the efforts in this
direction feel like afterthoughts.
Christian Smith
>I think that in any discussion of Rei as a fictional female character, it
>should be borne in mind that the director makes it clear that Rei is not
>a 14 year-old girl with a pale countenance, the body of a supermodel, and
>a withdrawn personality.
Surely that is just what she is, at first. She is eerily
damaged when you first meet her, but once that's overcome her mystery
is played as a sexy element. Yes, in the end you find out:
>She is an artificial creation who is constantly
>experimented upon and maintained by a regimen of drugs, and an agent
>produced for a terrible mission of which she is one of the handful of
>people on Earth who is cognizant.
But this is part and parcel of the vicious baiting tactics Eva
uses. It sets up a world where everything works like a giant 'bot
show: big explosions, gimmicky fights, sexy chicks who scream,
"Baka!", the fate of the planet, etc. etc. Then, *after* the fantasy
is in place, they slap you around for believing it. That bitchy girl?
She was actually traumatized in her childhood--how DARE you laugh?!
Eva is important because it points out that real people
couldn't possibly function in a 70s-'bot-show world; anime's cliches
are terribly unreal and sugarcoated. It is, however, not completely
successful because it begins as an homage. The ambivalence is a
perfectly acceptable art move; but the execution is clumsy.
Ever seen The Last Action Hero?
>Many of the characters of EVA are more
>disturbed and angered by Rei than finding her charming or pliable. In the
>famous scene, for example, where Shinji ends up raining himself and Rei's
>underwear on her, he ends up more frightened than aroused. The same scene
>in most anime would have been played entirely for laughs, no doubt with a
>slap and cry of "etchi" or "hentai."
Again, bait-and-switch. The physics necessary to create the
underwear scene are stolen from the unreal anime world--it would never
happen in reality. But then you are meant to be disturbed by the
working out of it, which is much more real. Why not just start with
reality in the first place? That would seem to have a lot more
potential for actual art....
>The image of Rei was even reflected in Japan's sex
>industry, where the "bandaged" look acquired a certain vogue for a while
That's actually not very new. Try the Taschen book City of
Broken Dolls for examples. Or don't...it's exceedingly creepy. I'm
more of the opinion that Anno purposefully borrowed the sex/injury
conflation to add edge to Eva, which is okay in my book.
>But, again, I say that the *image* of Rei was popular--an
>erotic image made of selected elements. That image is not the complete
>Rei Ayanami portrayed by Anno in EVANGELION, whom I doubt that anyone
>would want to be. The series is fairly up-front about the difference
>between the subjective image of a person and the complete identity of a
>person--indeed, that's the main subject of its last two episodes.
I'll buy that. But the complete Rei Ayanami is only mildly
less sexist (or why Anno's statements that she's "the kind of girl
Japanese guys go for"?)* And not much more interesting, for my tastes.
But no matter whether you find her interesting or not, she is not in
any way a positive portrayal of a powerful woman, and a blow against
chauvinism.
* I have not read this statement myself, only heard it attributed to
him. Sounds about right, though.
Christian Smith
wrote:
>Rei does not appear in skintight costume unusually often compared to lots of
>female characters who don't have as many opposite-sex fans as Rei. Heck,
>Asuka uses a skintight costume.
Yep, and there's plenty of fans that want to fuck her, too.
The argument "Rei is a sex object, but other sex objects don't have
such big followings, therefore, she's popular because she's
mysterious, not because she's a sex object" does not address my point.
My point was that if Rei were a mysterious, icy-cold talking toaster
fans wouldn't be *nearly* as interested in her.
Also, Eva was more popular to begin with due to the
anticipation of new Gainax material, so more people saw her than many
other sex objects.
>Oh, come on now. You're describing a scene from one show and saying that this
>exact scene doesn't appear in the other show. Of course it doesn't--you've
>described the scene with such specificity that the only way another show could
>use it is if one of the shows was directly plagiarizing the other.
It wasn't my point that the exact scene doesn't appear. It was
my point that nothing similarly contrived and overblown appears.
>If you're going to be a little more general, there are certainly sexually
>charged scenes in Star Trek which involve Spock.
Yeah, in two or three episodes, where it is explicitly stated
that this is *unusual* for him. Just enough sex to provide a
jumping-off point for fans, but not enough that the point of the
character is sexitude. Rei serves other functions, yes; but she's
mostly a sexist stereotype, just like Captain Kirk.
Christian Smith
Hutchins) wrote:
>In article <390a5a70...@news.mindspring.com>,
>Christian Smith <lyabi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>with fans? Of course not. There may be other reasons she's popular,
>>but beyond even the slimmest doubt, the primary one is that she's a
>>svelte teen with enormous tits.
>
>
>... "enormous"?
>
>Um, yeah, uh huh.
Just because there are characters with bigger tits doesn't
mean her tits aren't outsized. Fourteen-year-old girls as small as Rei
do not come with breasts that size, except through surgical
intervention.
Shadow6865
aren't outsized. Fourteen-year-old girls as small as Rei do not come with
breasts that size, except through surgical intervention.
>>
I would have to agree with Mr. Smith in this case. Even though I feel he is
being a little too hard on Rei fans, he is correct that the Asuka and Rei's
breasts are too big considering their size and age. Whenever I show someone EVA
or lend them my tapes, they always eventually manage to ask amoung other things
"Since when did 14 year old girls have breasts that big?"
Carl Horn
Christian Smith <lyabi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On 29 Apr 2000 18:06:36 GMT, gar...@netcom.com (Carl Horn) wrote:
>
>>I think that in any discussion of Rei as a fictional female character, it
>>should be borne in mind that the director makes it clear that Rei is not
>>a 14 year-old girl with a pale countenance, the body of a supermodel, and
>>a withdrawn personality.
>
> Surely that is just what she is, at first. She is eerily
>damaged when you first meet her, but once that's overcome her mystery
>is played as a sexy element. Yes, in the end you find out:
Actually, the first glimpse ever of Rei is supernatural--Shinji's vision
of her standing on the streets of Tokyo-3 before he has ever met her or
even knows she exists. It is therefore clear from the beginning that she
is even more strange than her job, appearance, and condition would
suggest. That vision is not so much explained but is mirrored on "the last
shore" of the movie's conclusion.
>
>>She is an artificial creation who is constantly
>>experimented upon and maintained by a regimen of drugs, and an agent
>>produced for a terrible mission of which she is one of the handful of
>>people on Earth who is cognizant.
>
> But this is part and parcel of the vicious baiting tactics Eva
>uses. It sets up a world where everything works like a giant 'bot
>show: big explosions, gimmicky fights, sexy chicks who scream,
>"Baka!", the fate of the planet, etc. etc. Then, *after* the fantasy
>is in place, they slap you around for believing it. That bitchy girl?
>She was actually traumatized in her childhood--how DARE you laugh?!
I don't think EVA demands that you have only one feeling about its
characters. Misato feels both compassion and contempt for Shinji's
weakness; when *she* was his age, half the human race died the year
following the Second Impact; Fuyutsuki called it "hell" and refused to
even describe that time in his testimony. Ryouji gently reminds Asuka of
it when she asks him unthinkingly about where he went on his school
outings. Nevertheless, he ended up as (and decided to be) a decent human
being who puts off Asuka, who as one of her attributes is a sex symbol
(symbol--not a simple word even when paired with sex!) for male--
including older male--fans of EVA.
Of the three generations of important characters whose age can be known--
the parents, the guardians, and the children--in a real sense, the
children are not the last generation of humanity. The guardians are.
The children are the finis hominis, if you will excuse the "Coffin Joe"
reference.
> Eva is important because it points out that real people
>couldn't possibly function in a 70s-'bot-show world; anime's cliches
>are terribly unreal and sugarcoated. It is, however, not completely
>successful because it begins as an homage. The ambivalence is a
>perfectly acceptable art move; but the execution is clumsy.
> Ever seen The Last Action Hero?
Well, Alice In Chains' "What The Hell Have I" was on that movie's
soundtrack--it would have fit in pretty well to EVA ("They will, however,
buy Pearl Jam albums by the millions!").
>
>>Many of the characters of EVA are more
>>disturbed and angered by Rei than finding her charming or pliable. In the
>>famous scene, for example, where Shinji ends up raining himself and Rei's
>>underwear on her, he ends up more frightened than aroused. The same scene
>>in most anime would have been played entirely for laughs, no doubt with a
>>slap and cry of "etchi" or "hentai."
>
> Again, bait-and-switch. The physics necessary to create the
>underwear scene are stolen from the unreal anime world--it would never
>happen in reality. But then you are meant to be disturbed by the
>working out of it, which is much more real. Why not just start with
>reality in the first place? That would seem to have a lot more
>potential for actual art....
>
In this particular scene, it is not only the working out that is
disturbing, but the set-up. Rei doesn't live in a schoolgirl's room
decorated with stuffed animals and posters, but in a dark, dirty flat in
a deserted apartment complex ringing with the sound of a pile driver.
It's not unlike a shooting gallery, and the emaciated and always
close-to-death Rei with her piles of unidentified drugs is not unlike a junkie.
The "bait-and-switch" is no doubt evident. But it is not only certain
fans who were put over; there was the whole question of getting EVA on
the air in the first place. One of several possible correct answers to
the problem of EVA is that the show was a Trojan horse. To bring up the
comparison again, THE PRISONER began as ostensibly a genre show, with a
lead actor and co-writer, who, like Anno, was strongly identified with
previous success in a genre. Both series end in a comparable fashion--the
main character questioning and being questioned by the rest of the cast;
even down to having a cariacaturized "genre" scene--the James Bond-style
carnival shootup of enemy HQ hijinks of THE PRISONER or the high
school-family-school anime hijinks of EVA.
Gainax's own president, Yasuhiro Takeda, who had known him since the days of
Daicon Film, said early on in the series that he had no idea what Anno was
doing, only that he appeared very serious about the project. Anno gave
fair warning of what he intended in EVA in his essay that appeared in the
first volume of the manga, before the series even aired...but it seems
that the implications could only been known as they played out, so
personal were they.
>>The image of Rei was even reflected in Japan's sex
>>industry, where the "bandaged" look acquired a certain vogue for a while
>
> That's actually not very new. Try the Taschen book City of
>Broken Dolls for examples. Or don't...it's exceedingly creepy. I'm
>more of the opinion that Anno purposefully borrowed the sex/injury
>conflation to add edge to Eva, which is okay in my book.
>
>>But, again, I say that the *image* of Rei was popular--an
>>erotic image made of selected elements. That image is not the complete
>>Rei Ayanami portrayed by Anno in EVANGELION, whom I doubt that anyone
>>would want to be. The series is fairly up-front about the difference
>>between the subjective image of a person and the complete identity of a
>>person--indeed, that's the main subject of its last two episodes.
>
> I'll buy that. But the complete Rei Ayanami is only mildly
>less sexist (or why Anno's statements that she's "the kind of girl
>Japanese guys go for"?)* And not much more interesting, for my tastes.
>But no matter whether you find her interesting or not, she is not in
>any way a positive portrayal of a powerful woman, and a blow against
>chauvinism.
>
>* I have not read this statement myself, only heard it attributed to
>him. Sounds about right, though.
You are correct, and of course, the idea of the broken body as erotic is
older even than that; I'm thinking of Ballard's novel CRASH (I have to
give a shout-out here and say that Ballard's "The Assassination Weapon"
is one of my favorite short stories in English).
"Shinji does reflect my character, both in conscious and unconscious
part. In the process of making EVANGELION, I found out what kind of
person I am. I acknowledged that I'm a fool."
--Hideaki Anno, 1996
From the beginning to the end of EVA, Anno admitted he was a fuck-up who
was fucked up: hello, hello, hello, how low; hey, wait, I got a new
complaint! I don't think Anno would necessarily disagree that Rei could
be viewed as sexist or as an uninteresting character. One is right, perhaps
to be suspicious, if the insistent tone is that these contradictions will
eventually lead to Utopia, like Snowball's exhortations in ANIMAL FARM.
But NEON GENESIS EVANGELION is not real life, not a real place anyone
must live in, it is an imaginary work of art, and I do not therefore condemn
its contradictions or its duality and multiplicity. Were Anno not an otaku
using the methods of an otaku, I don't think he could have put the empathy
(and self-hatred) into it that he did. And I think Anno, of all people,
would be the one to agree with you that EVANGELION is not the be-all and
end-all of anime; few know and appreciate the history of anime better
than he. I wouldn't have asked Nirvana to find some more original way to
express themselves than guitar, bass and drums, or not to be influenced
by The Pixies and The Meat Puppets. Kurt addicting himself to smack in
the best cliche of rock-n'-roll, and then killing himself for an encore, was
foolish, and he was a fool. Like me. But I'm a fool who didn't write "In
Utero," or "Neon Genesis Evangelion." And I risk misinterpreting and
being misinterpreted; that's a risk we all face when we're here and
forever after.
--Carl "Help me please/Burn the sorrow from your eyes" Horn
"I had to tell them you were gone
I had to tell them they were wrong
And now they're playing your song."
--Hole, "Playing Your Song"
"I love your melon, Courtney."
--Seishun Shitemasu, "Anime Bites"
Benjamin D. Hutchins
Christian Smith <lyabi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Just because there are characters with bigger tits doesn't
>mean her tits aren't outsized. Fourteen-year-old girls as small as Rei
>do not come with breasts that size, except through surgical
>intervention.
They don't come with -eyes- that size either. There's such a thing as
relativism, especially in visual art.
Carl Horn
Benjamin D. Hutchins <gry...@rei.nerv.gweep.net> wrote:
>In article <390c94ac...@news.mindspring.com>,
>Christian Smith <lyabi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> Just because there are characters with bigger tits doesn't
>>mean her tits aren't outsized. Fourteen-year-old girls as small as Rei
>>do not come with breasts that size, except through surgical
>>intervention.
>
>They don't come with -eyes- that size either. There's such a thing as
>relativism, especially in visual art.
>
>--G.
>--
As it happens, there are in fact girls of that age with fairly large
breasts; but the point that anime is usually a medium of distortion is a
correct one. Even STAR BLAZERS had its share of...bad moments; Nova's
breasts varied in size depending on who the key animators were for that
episode. It's true of EVA the anime as well, and there are even
considerable variations within the work of Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, Rei's
designer. He tends to portray Rei's breasts as larger in his color
paintings for EVA than he does in the actual EVA manga.
--Carl "Hey Misato/Where you goin' with that gun in your hand?" Horn
Ken Arromdee
Christian Smith <lyabi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Mike was talking about anime which, for instance, shows a
>>woman as a robot pilot but doesn't give her much of a personality. This is
>>a cheap stereotype, but it is a gender-neutral cheap stereotype and certainly
>>does not portray women as breeders.
> Okay, yes, "robot pilot" is a sex-neutral stereotype. However,
>female robot pilots are (almost?) never *just* robot pilots. They're
>(almost?) always *sexy* robot pilots, or castrating-bitch robot
>pilots. Bubblegum Crisis comes to mind, but even something as
>supposedly avant and modern as Eva is guilty of the exact same thing.
The problem is that there are so many such "stereotypes" that almost any
character will be pretty close to at least one of them just because they cover
so much ground. Even male characters can be said to fit the stereotypes
(imagine if Shinji were female--s/he would follow the 'submissive female'
stereotype. A female Gendou would be the stereotype of 'defines herself by her
husband'. Son Gokuu female would be a brainless bimbo who shows off her body
a lot, Tenchi would be the same stereotype that people ascribe to Miaka, etc.)
Or to give another example of this, look at the personalities of the Knight
Sabers. They're basically a sentai team with genders reversed, down to
Mackie as a gender-reversed version of the obligatory young girl on the team.
If Priss fits a 'bitch' stereotype, just how many sentai teams have a loud,
brash, male character as #2 in the team? If Nene is a 'young and cute'
stereotype, how many sentai teams have a young naive boy on the team? And the
same goes for the Sailor Senshi, another gender-reversed sentai team.
Stereotypes, sure. But specifically female ones? No.
Christian Smith
>In article <8eiffm$vl5$1...@rei.nerv.gweep.net>,
>Benjamin D. Hutchins <gry...@rei.nerv.gweep.net> wrote:
>>In article <390c94ac...@news.mindspring.com>,
>>Christian Smith <lyabi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just because there are characters with bigger tits doesn't
>>>mean her tits aren't outsized. Fourteen-year-old girls as small as Rei
>>>do not come with breasts that size, except through surgical
>>>intervention.
>>
>>They don't come with -eyes- that size either. There's such a thing as
>>relativism, especially in visual art.
>>
>>--G.
Of course. I am in no way suggesting that the makers of anime
(or any other work) be forced to use any particular images, including
"realistic" ones. If they want to draw Rei's breasts (or eyes) that
large, that's their choice. My point was two-fold. Here's the simple
part: her bazooms are much bigger than normal for a girl her age and
size (possible perhaps, but not plausible).
The more important point is that, like the big eyes, the
visual iconography of a stacked rack is *chosen.* The
author/image-maker meant something by it, and it is that meaning which
I have problems with, not the pink-nosed puppies themselves. I happen
to like substantial cleavitude.
>As it happens, there are in fact girls of that age with fairly large
>breasts; but the point that anime is usually a medium of distortion is a
>correct one. Even STAR BLAZERS had its share of...bad moments; Nova's
>breasts varied in size depending on who the key animators were for that
>episode. It's true of EVA the anime as well, and there are even
>considerable variations within the work of Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, Rei's
>designer. He tends to portray Rei's breasts as larger in his color
>paintings for EVA than he does in the actual EVA manga.
Oh yeah. Yuki is to some extent a submissive sex object,
especially in the way Analyzer acts towards her, which we're supposed
to find amusing. Whatever the size of cantaloupes drawn on her, or on
Rei, in any particular medium, it is a choice to present the character
that way. The suite of images chosen for Rei is "mysterious, creepy,
fascinating, sexy." The last must necessarily be a component of any
elucidation of her character. If sexiness was unimportant to the idea
of Rei, she could be drawn as a less endowed female. The reason she
isn't may be as simple as "Anno likes chicks"--but there is a reason.
Christian Smith
>And my point is that mysterious, icy-cold talking characters are found
>attractive by fans, regardless of gender.
Yes. Warm, human characters are also found attractive by fans,
regardless of gender. Obsessively displayed female secondary sex
characteristics are not the only reason people like Rei. They're just
the reason more people like Rei as opposed to Gendou, who's about as
mysterious and icy.
It's okay to like cute chicks. It's just ridiculous to argue
that cute-chick-liking isn't integral to Rei's popularity.
>The Rei underwear scene only happened in one episode, and it's unusual for
>such things to happen to Rei.
It's unusual for such things to happen, yes. Shinji, however,
often thinks of Rei in sexual terms. And her visual depiction is
almost always sexualized, as opposed to Spock.
Christian Smith
>In article <390c94ac...@news.mindspring.com>,
>Christian Smith <lyabi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Just because there are characters with bigger tits doesn't
>>mean her tits aren't outsized.
>
>But it does mean that if Rei is more popular than those other characters, it
>can't be the tits that are doing it.
Right. But Rei is much, much more popular than she would've
been without big boobies. Other factors (like the fact that the show
is by Gainax and promoted by Sony) might have (were) responsible for
her extreme popularity.
Christian Smith
>The problem is that there are so many such "stereotypes" that almost any
>character will be pretty close to at least one of them just because they cover
>so much ground.
[snip]
>Or to give another example of this, look at the personalities of the Knight
>Sabers. They're basically a sentai team with genders reversed, down to
>Mackie as a gender-reversed version of the obligatory young girl on the team.
>If Priss fits a 'bitch' stereotype, just how many sentai teams have a loud,
>brash, male character as #2 in the team? If Nene is a 'young and cute'
>stereotype, how many sentai teams have a young naive boy on the team? And the
>same goes for the Sailor Senshi, another gender-reversed sentai team.
>Stereotypes, sure. But specifically female ones? No.
They *are* specifically female because, as I said, in addition
to all the gender-neutral patterns they might fit into, they almost
always fit into one of two additional categories: sexpot or bitch
(who's actually just a repressed sexpot who needs a deep dicking).
This is not true of males; they fulfull other stereotypes, but
not the ones about sexual function. Those are almost exclusively the
domain of female characters, because anime--like most other media--is
made by men.
Priss does fit a bitch stereotype, and yes, she's a version of
the loud, dangerous number-two from standard sentai. She's also
uber-sexy and takes her clothes off to fight crime. To be fair, the
second-in-command from a bot show is often the sexiest (a la Condor
Joe). So go to Nene or Linna. Yep, reversals all right--and did we
mention that while they kick ass, they have body-hugging hardsuits
with ballerina boots? That they comment on their attractive figures in
the suits (because we all know girls can't shut up about that)?
There may well be legitimate counterexamples to my point.
Bubble Gum Crisis or Sailor Moon are not them. Usagi and Ultraman both
have flashy transformation sequences.
Ultraman isn't naked during his.
Christian Smith
Smith) wrote:
> Right. But Rei is much, much more popular than she would've
>been without big boobies. Other factors (like the fact that the show
>is by Gainax and promoted by Sony) might have (were) responsible for
>her extreme popularity.
The grammar in the third sentence is completely wrong. Please replace
it with the following:
Other factors might have been responsible for her extreme popularity;
the fact that show was by Gainax and promoted by Sony was certainly
part of it.
David Johnston
>>Mike was talking about anime which, for instance, shows a
>>woman as a robot pilot but doesn't give her much of a personality. This is
>>a cheap stereotype, but it is a gender-neutral cheap stereotype and certainly
>>does not portray women as breeders.
> Okay, yes, "robot pilot" is a sex-neutral stereotype. However,
>female robot pilots are (almost?) never *just* robot pilots.
If they were just robot pilots, wouldn't they end up with no personality
at all?
They're
>(almost?) always *sexy* robot pilots, or castrating-bitch robot
>pilots. Bubblegum Crisis comes to mind, but even something as
>supposedly avant and modern as Eva is guilty of the exact same thing.
Uh-huhn. How is the castrating-bitch woman stereotype different from
the highly aggressive borderline thug male stereotype?
Christian Smith
>Actually, the first glimpse ever of Rei is supernatural--Shinji's vision
>of her standing on the streets of Tokyo-3 before he has ever met her or
>even knows she exists. It is therefore clear from the beginning that she
>is even more strange than her job, appearance, and condition would
>suggest.
True. I agree that from the start, she's meant to be
intriguingly mysterious, much like Maeter from Galaxy Express. Like
Maeter, she is also meant to be sexy.
>I don't think EVA demands that you have only one feeling about its
>characters.
I don't either. But I do think it takes the audience to task
for attitudes that the show itself encourages. This is why I earlier
mentioned that my most succinct summation of the show is that it's
Hideaki Anno's hatemail--addressed to the parts of himself that like
anime.
>[snip]...Asuka, who as one of her attributes is a sex symbol
>(symbol--not a simple word even when paired with sex!) for male--
>including older male--fans of EVA.
The sexification of the females in Eva (there's a word Thalmus
Rasulala probably appreciates: "sexify") might seem consistent with
intelligent discussion had I not seen other Gainax work. Noriko loses
here Shinji-like ambivalence and ennui partway through the story--but
her breasts never do quit jiggling. She didn't need to actually rip
her shirt open (since she doesn't then actually rip her heart out),
but she does.
It's fanservice, of course, and on its own terms
unimpeachable. But I think it's indicative of Anno's clumsiness that
he expects to insert anime cliches, yet maintain a "this is deeper
than regular anime" attitude. (Hello, Kevin Williamson.) Why not just
strip out the cliches altogether, and show us the truth?
>Of the three generations of important characters whose age can be known--
>the parents, the guardians, and the children--in a real sense, the
>children are not the last generation of humanity. The guardians are.
>The children are the finis hominis, if you will excuse the "Coffin Joe"
>reference.
Carl, please get in as many Jose Marins references as
possible. There's a bigger world outside anime, and it can only help
to consider it as fair game for comparison.
I don't like Eva. I think that's obvious. But I understand
that it's exciting to some people because it at least makes the effort
to escape from the self-referential world that has basically killed
the industry. It's like late-90s rock: Kurt Cobain listened to the
music of rock history and fashioned his personal view out of a
restatement of those approaches. Today's bands listen to Kurt Cobain,
and little else; they're not going back to primary sources.
I'm aware that Anno probably *is* going back; I don't know
anything about Road to Munich, and he does. But it seems to me
Evangelion is more important as a meta-message: he's driven a wedge
into the videogame/manga-adaptation wall of shite. Maybe after all
it's okay to make individualized anime. Maybe it's okay to make a show
that's more about the author than about the characters.
>Well, Alice In Chains' "What The Hell Have I" was on that movie's
>soundtrack--it would have fit in pretty well to EVA.
My point was that Last Action Hero first gives you all the
action-movie cliches, then tries to make you think about how
horrifyingly unreal they are. It's like Armageddon: "We'll give
everybody the big, dumb, Hollywood actioner they expect--then kill the
hero and try to salvage artistic respectability!" As my friend Mark
says, anyone who sits through the first few hours of Armageddon
patiently *deserves* a happy ending.
Evangelion isn't that bad. But no matter what Anno had in mind
for later, it starts as a rollicking homage to 'bot shows. And stays
that way for a while. And then--whoops! blisteringly awful horror!
>The "bait-and-switch" is no doubt evident. But it is not only certain
>fans who were put over; there was the whole question of getting EVA on
>the air in the first place. One of several possible correct answers to
>the problem of EVA is that the show was a Trojan horse.
Possible. It goes on an awfully long time before the artstuff
starts happening though. Has Anno ever made any comments to that
effect? That he'd rather the show have been more unusual and intense
from the start, but he was forced to do otherwise to keep it on air?
>To bring up the
>comparison again, THE PRISONER began as ostensibly a genre show, with a
>lead actor and co-writer, who, like Anno, was strongly identified with
>previous success in a genre. Both series end in a comparable fashion--the
>main character questioning and being questioned by the rest of the cast;
>even down to having a caricaturized "genre" scene--the James Bond-style
>carnival shootup of enemy HQ hijinks of THE PRISONER or the high
>school-family-school anime hijinks of EVA.
I agree the similarities are large...Evangelion is primarily a
stew of previous ideas, from a wealth of unrelated sources. I don't
think that they cohere as much as could be hoped. Too much of it is
mindless slinging of jargon; from the way he uses it, it's remarkably
obvious that Anno doesn't really know (or care) what the Central Dogma
is, or what it means for humans to be a "colony organism." His SF is
more like schizophrenia than speculation.
>But NEON GENESIS EVANGELION is not real life, not a real place anyone
>must live in, it is an imaginary work of art, and I do not therefore condemn
>its contradictions or its duality and multiplicity.
I don't condemn them because I feel everything should be
uncontradictory. I condemn them because, dammit, Evangelion could've
been really, really good. It represents massive amounts of collation
and percolation in Anno's brain, but it comes out marbled and
byzantine.
Complexity doesn't equal intelligence. Intelligibility doesn't
equal quality. Multifariousness doesn't equal ineffectuality.
Evangelion doesn't equal the sum it could. I'll get back to this.
>But I'm a fool who didn't write "In
>Utero," or "Neon Genesis Evangelion." And I risk misinterpreting and
>being misinterpreted; that's a risk we all face when we're here and
>forever after.
Yeah. Oh yeah. But my assertion is that Anno risks
misinterpretation much more than he has to; he did not bolster the
sagging planks of his rubegoldbergian agglomerate before he made it
public. Evangelion as a work in progress is intriguing; as a supposed
finished product it's a loss.
It seems like too many theories can be hung on Evangelion's
frame. When you start seeing art that can mean two opposite things,
you know you're in our century. It's still art--but it ceases to be
truth about anything except the artist.
I am avowedly behind the times on this, but I like to be told
things I didn't know about the world by my art, or things I was too
blurred to see clearly. Things about the author are lagniappe, not the
main point.
"...so he let himself out with two barrels of steel.
On the coattails of a dead man she rides..."
Robert Geiger
Christian Smith wrote in message <390d112a...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On 30 Apr 2000 21:59:52 GMT, gar...@netcom.com (Carl Horn) wrote:
> My point was that Last Action Hero first gives you all the
>action-movie cliches, then tries to make you think about how
>horrifyingly unreal they are. It's like Armageddon: "We'll give
>everybody the big, dumb, Hollywood actioner they expect--then kill the
>hero and try to salvage artistic respectability!" As my friend Mark
>says, anyone who sits through the first few hours of Armageddon
>patiently *deserves* a happy ending.
DEEP IMPACT handles the 'Heros sacrifice themselves' ALOT better
In Armageddon while Willis crawls to the trigger, that guy down on
Earth/in Shuttle
is telling them NOT TO TRIGGER THE BOMB just so Willis can go
out with a bang. I for one am not going to wait foranyone.
IMPACT however,has someone else driving the ship while all the good-byes
are being said. The new father can wave bye-bye to his baby while
the old soldier drives the ship..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Christian Smith
<rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>If they were just robot pilots, wouldn't they end up with no personality
>at all?
Yes, which is exactly what happens with most of them.
>Uh-huhn. How is the castrating-bitch woman stereotype different from
>the highly aggressive borderline thug male stereotype?
Not much, except that it's vilified instead of celebrated by
most mainstream media. It involves sex (women's function, denied by
the bitch) instead of violence (men's function, embraced by the thug).
Christian Smith
>And the point of this?
My point is that there are plenty of reasons why any character
might be found attractive. In Rei's case, one of the reasons is her
milk jugs.
>If your point is that characters of type <fill in the blank> are considered
>attractive, and it really doesn't matter what you fill the blank with, then
>I'll have to not only disagree, but say that that's a pretty absurd conclusion.
>
>If your point is that since other types of characters with different
>personalities are found attractive, it obviously can't be personality that's
>doing it, then that doesn't make any sense. "More than one personality type
>can make a character attractive" and "personality is not a major factor in
>making a character attractive" aren't the same thing.
Agreed. But--personality isn't a major factor in why *some*
characters are attractive; think of anything with Denise Richards in
it, for example. My specific assertion is that the popularity of
Ayanami Rei, while not created solely by her portrayal as a sex
object, is nevertheless considerably enhanced by it.
In an earlier post, I asked if a sentient talking robot with
Rei's personality that looked like a toaster would be as popular. Your
response was:
>And my point is that mysterious, icy-cold talking characters are found
>attractive by fans, regardless of gender. Yes, they have to still look
>human, so toasters aren't eligible, but that too applies regardless of gender.
But if the *personality* is what's attracting the fans, why
would they "have to still look human"? Doesn't that mean that whatever
hold the personality has, it isn't realized unless accompanied by an
attractive form? It seems that you are agreeing with me here....
Here's the shortest version I can come up with:
A major--but not sole--component of Rei's presentation is as
an idealized sex object. She wouldn't be nearly as popular if this
trait were removed.
Do you disagree with either of those two statements?
Christian Smith
>But it's *not an additional category*. How can "bitch" be a female stereotype
>when it's exactly the same personality shown by men in the same situation?
Because "bitch" is also about sexuality. "Asshole" isn't.
>(Hey, I always thought it was feminists who complain that "bitch" is used for
>behavior in women that would just be called "assertive" coming from a man.
>I assume you're a feminist, so I'm rather surprised to see *you* doing that
>very same thing.)
I think you have missed my point; I'm sorry I wasn't clear
enough. Anime sometimes calls women "bitches" when they do the same
things men are lauded for. That is the sexist principle you elucidate
above, and I don't like it.
Another way of saying this: a female character may be
submissive or shy, or she may be really kickass. In either case, in
most anime her attitudes toward sex and her body are an important part
of her character, and are always addressed in one way or another. A
man in the same role may have a variable personality as well; but his
attitudes towards sex are not even remotely as likely to be raised.
>And if Priss is a repressed sexpot, you must be watching a different series
>than me.
It's not solely what her character does; it's how her
character functions as well. She leads Leon on, to get information,
using sexiness as a lure. She doesn't want a man, but she dresses in
miniskirts and halter tops. These are the actions of a) a liberated
women aware of the power of her body or b) a repressed woman who
claims she doesn't want sex but actually does. The reason I favor
interpretation b) is because the show repeatedly shows her and other
girls naked, it consistently relies on stereotypes in other areas, and
it was made not by avowed feminists (or proven ones) but by a
production company known for slick mainstream material. These elements
don't prove anything, but they are highly suggestive.
Would Cagney and Lacey be feminist if, everytime before they
went out to arrest people, they changed clothes and you either saw
them in their underwear or naked?
Christian Smith
>She's more popular than she would have been if she were a toaster, but it
>doesn't seem to be breasts specifically. It's just that you have to be human
>physically to be considered attractive, and you have to be physically of the
>opposite sex to be considered attractive to heterosexuals.
So you're saying that she had to have sexy physical attributes
to be considered attractive by fans. Which is what I've been saying
all along: her personality alone wouldn't have done it. It's tits.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> On 1 May 2000 03:22:30 GMT, arro...@rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote:
>
> >The problem is that there are so many such "stereotypes" that almost any
> >character will be pretty close to at least one of them just because they cover
> >so much ground.
>
> [snip]
>
> >Or to give another example of this, look at the personalities of the Knight
> >Sabers. They're basically a sentai team with genders reversed, down to
> >Mackie as a gender-reversed version of the obligatory young girl on the team.
> >If Priss fits a 'bitch' stereotype, just how many sentai teams have a loud,
> >brash, male character as #2 in the team? If Nene is a 'young and cute'
> >stereotype, how many sentai teams have a young naive boy on the team? And the
> >same goes for the Sailor Senshi, another gender-reversed sentai team.
> >Stereotypes, sure. But specifically female ones? No.
>
> They *are* specifically female because, as I said, in addition
> to all the gender-neutral patterns they might fit into, they almost
> always fit into one of two additional categories: sexpot or bitch
> (who's actually just a repressed sexpot who needs a deep dicking).
>
Hmmm.... interesting way of putting it....
Lee Ratner
<robert...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>
>Christian Smith wrote in message <390d112a...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>On 30 Apr 2000 21:59:52 GMT, gar...@netcom.com (Carl Horn) wrote:
>> My point was that Last Action Hero first gives you all the
>>action-movie cliches, then tries to make you think about how
>>horrifyingly unreal they are. It's like Armageddon: "We'll give
>>everybody the big, dumb, Hollywood actioner they expect--then kill the
>>hero and try to salvage artistic respectability!" As my friend Mark
>>says, anyone who sits through the first few hours of Armageddon
>>patiently *deserves* a happy ending.
>
>
>DEEP IMPACT handles the 'Heros sacrifice themselves' ALOT better
> In Armageddon while Willis crawls to the trigger, that guy down on
>Earth/in Shuttle
>is telling them NOT TO TRIGGER THE BOMB just so Willis can go
>out with a bang. I for one am not going to wait foranyone.
> IMPACT however,has someone else driving the ship while all the good-byes
>are being said. The new father can wave bye-bye to his baby while
>the old soldier drives the ship..
>.
>.\
its also a much better movie. I think Deep Impact failed because its
intelligent and real and classic science fiction and Morgan Freeman, a
black actor, plays the President. Most non-black Amercans aren't ready
for somethink like this even in movies. How sad.
David Watson
> On 1 May 2000 07:44:23 GMT, arro...@rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote:
>>She's more popular than she would have been if she were a toaster, but it
>>doesn't seem to be breasts specifically. It's just that you have to be human
>>physically to be considered attractive, and you have to be physically of the
>>opposite sex to be considered attractive to heterosexuals.
> So you're saying that she had to have sexy physical attributes
> to be considered attractive by fans. Which is what I've been saying
> all along: her personality alone wouldn't have done it. It's tits.
No, it's a skin-tight plug suit, actually (which highlights her backside
as well, as I've pointed out, and also works for Asuka). Her chest isn't
very apparent in her school uniform, which is what she wears most of the
time in the show. I mean, come on, she isn't Mai Shiranui from Fatal Fury
or Nurse Ruko Tatase from Ogenki Clinic.
--
Dave Watson, Severed Heads Liberation Front (Re-release the _Stretcher_ EP!)
Frezier Balzoff (Ottawa), Ontario, Canada Email--shlf [at] ncf [dot] ca
My music and anime webpage: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/
FOUR MORE YEARS OF MIKE HARRIS' FASCISM?? ONTARIO! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
Slithy Tove
>On 1 May 2000 07:44:23 GMT, arro...@rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) wrote:
>
>>She's more popular than she would have been if she were a toaster, but it
>>doesn't seem to be breasts specifically. It's just that you have to be
human
>>physically to be considered attractive, and you have to be physically of
the
>>opposite sex to be considered attractive to heterosexuals.
>
> So you're saying that she had to have sexy physical attributes
>to be considered attractive by fans. Which is what I've been saying
>all along: her personality alone wouldn't have done it. It's tits.
But now you're just stating the obvious. Everyone acknowledges that men --
and even women, look at Cosmo covers -- find young women with pronounced
secondary sexual characteristics attractive. This is not news. But why is
*Rei* more attractive than other characters of roughly equal proportions,
out of all the characters in character-space?
Your original answer was that she was 'pliant'. Another answer was that she
is 'mysterious'. My personal answer -- for only myself -- is that she is
tragic, and heroic. I personally didn't find her an especially interesting
character, and thought the fan obsession with her was completely
incomprehensible, until I saw the 'Rei III' episode, but at that point I
fell in love with her, and I have liked the character a lot ever since.
No one can prove how many fans like her for what reason. You may be right
that some of them like her because she's passive, although that sort of
thing is impossible to prove.
But it's more than the tits.
== Slithy "I think I am the third toaster" Tove
David Johnston
> There may well be legitimate counterexamples to my point.
> Bubble Gum Crisis or Sailor Moon are not them. Usagi and Ultraman both
> have flashy transformation sequences.
> Ultraman isn't naked during his.
Neither is Sailor Moon, so far as I can tell. Bummer.
David Johnston
>
> On Mon, 01 May 2000 05:42:57 GMT, David Johnston
> <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
> >If they were just robot pilots, wouldn't they end up with no personality
> >at all?
>
> Yes, which is exactly what happens with most of them.
If you say so. I hadn't really noticed that the Zentraedi chick
had less personality than the guy with the glasses and yet I wouldn't
characterise her as either sexy or castrating.
>
> >Uh-huhn. How is the castrating-bitch woman stereotype different from
> >the highly aggressive borderline thug male stereotype?
>
> Not much, except that it's vilified instead of celebrated by
> most mainstream media. It involves sex (women's function, denied by
> the bitch) instead of violence (men's function, embraced by the thug).
I do not understand what you are talking about. Frankly I don't regard
characters like Priss as castrating bitches, and I'm rather surprised
you do.
Jojo
Yeah. Just because you see an outline of her form doesn't mean
she's naked. And she isn't. We don't see anything THUS it is
simply an ordinary, flashy transformation.
Btw, D-Boy from Tekkaman Blade (Teknoman) goes nude when he
transforms.
Jojo
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Demian Phillips
><<
>
>I know a friend who, despite going to college and wanting a career, wants to
>marry a rich guy to support her, even as a housewife at times.
>Is that anti-feminist, do you think? >>
>
> I am not sure if it is anti-feminist but I am not thrilled about people who
>place money as a top criteria for marriage prospects.
>
As proven by the "Who wants to marry a millionaire" thing.
---
^_^
Demian Phillips
PGP KEY ID 0x5BC4FCB4
Jorge R. Frank
>
> its also a much better movie. I think Deep Impact failed because its
> intelligent and real and classic science fiction and Morgan Freeman, a
> black actor, plays the President. Most non-black Amercans aren't ready
> for somethink like this even in movies. How sad.
Huh? Deep Impact didn't fail. Granted, it didn't gross as much as
Armageddon, but Armageddon was released during the summer movie season
(Deep Impact was in the spring) and was promoted more heavily. I don't
think it had anything to do with Morgan Freeman.
--
JRF
Reply-to address spam-proofed - to reply by E-mail,
check "Organization" and think one step ahead of IBM.
Heaven's Cloud
lyabi...@mindspring.com (Christian Smith) wrote:
> (like the fact that the show
> is by Gainax and promoted by Sony)
Eva was promoted by Sony??? Could you mean Sega (the Real Models)?
--
Heaven's Cloud
*Current Favorites *Anime: SMJ, BAV
*Games: Grandia, FF8
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Charles M. Hagmaier
>>
> its also a much better movie. I think Deep Impact failed because its
> intelligent and real and classic science fiction and Morgan Freeman, a
> black actor, plays the President. Most non-black Amercans aren't ready
> for somethink like this even in movies. How sad.
>
What are you talking about? _Deep Impact_ made a bank, if not a
mint. No movie that makes nine figures is an absolute failure, and
I'm pretty sure DI covered its nut.
--
Mitch Hagmaier
Witch House/Quest Labs
Charles M. Hagmaier
>
> On 30 Apr 2000 21:59:52 GMT, gar...@netcom.com (Carl Horn) wrote:
>
> >Actually, the first glimpse ever of Rei is supernatural--Shinji's vision
> >of her standing on the streets of Tokyo-3 before he has ever met her or
> >even knows she exists. It is therefore clear from the beginning that she
> >is even more strange than her job, appearance, and condition would
> >suggest.
>
> True. I agree that from the start, she's meant to be
> intriguingly mysterious, much like Maeter from Galaxy Express. Like
> Maeter, she is also meant to be sexy.
>
Just wanted to take this irrelevant moment to make an observation:
feminists bandy about "the male gaze" in much the same fashion, and
with much the same apparent meaning, as our Puritan elders did of
"original sin", in days of yore.
> It's fanservice, of course, and on its own terms
> unimpeachable. But I think it's indicative of Anno's clumsiness that
> he expects to insert anime cliches, yet maintain a "this is deeper
> than regular anime" attitude. (Hello, Kevin Williamson.) Why not just
> strip out the cliches altogether, and show us the truth?
>
The truth? The Truth? The "truth"? lies THE TRUTH! (the truth)
Truth?
The Gospelist had it right, in the beginning. The skeptic kills the
messiah, 10 times out of 10. "What is truth?" saith the governor,
and doomed the faith with a wet towel and a turned back.
That's the whole point: if there's a truth, you can't seperate it
from the cliche, you can't divorce substance from all style without
slaying it dead. The truth, if it exists, dwells in your cliches.
Embrace your delusions - they're warm, and the void is cold.
> I don't like Eva. I think that's obvious. But I understand
> that it's exciting to some people because it at least makes the effort
> to escape from the self-referential world that has basically killed
> the industry. It's like late-90s rock: Kurt Cobain listened to the
> music of rock history and fashioned his personal view out of a
> restatement of those approaches. Today's bands listen to Kurt Cobain,
> and little else; they're not going back to primary sources.
Picked up a el-cheapo volume of Swinburne's poetry last month. It had
the usual above-the-material snobbish critical rant as a preface - the
usual practice for an essayist discussing a writer who's not quite the
thing, dear - I've seen the same thing with reprints of Philip Dick
novels, introductions incapable of getting over Dick's blatant
pulpisms, yada yada yada.
But it had an interesting idea - that Swinburne, ranting, raving
visionary practitioner of perfectionist overkill - had destroyed
romantic poetry by *completing* it. The essayist cites a poem in which
Swinburne burns through every possible variant in a rhyming scheme, and
when he runs out of variants, ends, having exhausted the idea.
No-one can do anything more with the scheme - it's played out. There
isn't any further avenue. It's done. It's dead. Swinburne was
universally praised as a genius in his time - but he's on his way to
being forgotten now. Mostly, claims the critic, because he left no
posterity. Like a firestorm, he consumed the material, and left no
tinder for later fire.
You notice how rock-as-rock pretty much went away with Cobain? Notice
how rock-as-rock doesn't get air play, doesn't get critical attention,
doesn't really do much of anything? Grunge burst like a firestorm,
and took all the oxygen out of the room. Environmental asphyxiation.
I get the distinct impression that Eva-period Anno wanted to be a
firestorm, he wanted to destroy-through-creating.
> I'm aware that Anno probably *is* going back; I don't know
> anything about Road to Munich, and he does. But it seems to me
> Evangelion is more important as a meta-message: he's driven a wedge
> into the videogame/manga-adaptation wall of shite. Maybe after all
> it's okay to make individualized anime. Maybe it's okay to make a show
> that's more about the author than about the characters.
>
Wow. That's the most repulsive thing I've heard all day. A show
that's more about the *author* than the characters. By implication,
more than the artists, more than the producers, more than the
inbetweeners, more than the money-men, more than the studio and the
sponsoring station.
Anime isn't a novel. Hell, manga as produced in Japan ain't a novel.
The novel is, theoretically, the product of an atomized individual.
That's the essence of "novel" - it's an expression of Island
Man. Anime, on the other hand, is as much a product of consensus-man
as a skyscraper or a war. The auteur-theory is, at its core, a
glorification of tyranny, of Fuhrer-prinzip. Miyazaki, Takahata,
Ohtasuka and the rest of the Toei proleteriat might have indulged in
a creative riot on _Horus_, but their ideology is closer to the
mechanics of the process than skyscraper-detonating Rand-idolizing
egotism could be.
> >Well, Alice In Chains' "What The Hell Have I" was on that movie's
> >soundtrack--it would have fit in pretty well to EVA.
>
> My point was that Last Action Hero first gives you all the
> action-movie cliches, then tries to make you think about how
> horrifyingly unreal they are. It's like Armageddon: "We'll give
> everybody the big, dumb, Hollywood actioner they expect--then kill the
> hero and try to salvage artistic respectability!" As my friend Mark
> says, anyone who sits through the first few hours of Armageddon
> patiently *deserves* a happy ending.
Anyone who sits through _Armageddon_ ought to be quietly put to
sleep in his chair, a needle from the arm-rest, seven kopeks to the
back of the neck. If there's anything more vile than the auteur-theory
director, it's the auteur-theory producer. But it's the fools that
watch that fuels the fire.
> Evangelion isn't that bad. But no matter what Anno had in mind
> for later, it starts as a rollicking homage to 'bot shows. And stays
> that way for a while. And then--whoops! blisteringly awful horror!
>
Politics and rants aside, I have to make a point, here. Castigating
a creative team for *surprising* the audience is the worst kind of
foolishness. One of the things that drew me to anime in the first
place is it's potential for alienation: the language, the different
tropes and mindset, the *dissonance* - this is what makes things
fresh. I happened to be lucky enough to pick a foreign entertainment
in which the creative streams are deep, and strong, and wide.
Once the alien patina faded, the core was diverse enough to maintain
interest. Horay for me. :/
> >The "bait-and-switch" is no doubt evident. But it is not only certain
> >fans who were put over; there was the whole question of getting EVA on
> >the air in the first place. One of several possible correct answers to
> >the problem of EVA is that the show was a Trojan horse.
>
> Possible. It goes on an awfully long time before the artstuff
> starts happening though. Has Anno ever made any comments to that
> effect? That he'd rather the show have been more unusual and intense
> from the start, but he was forced to do otherwise to keep it on air?
>
Hrum. The art-stuff does not, by any means, start late. The first-
episode climax is denied, and the cliffhanger is resolved over the
course of an episode in an interesting fashion. I would argue that
Eva's evil isn't in its art, but rather its auteur-imposed egotism.
> Complexity doesn't equal intelligence. Intelligibility doesn't
> equal quality. Multifariousness doesn't equal ineffectuality.
> Evangelion doesn't equal the sum it could. I'll get back to this.
>
No argument here.
> It seems like too many theories can be hung on Evangelion's
> frame. When you start seeing art that can mean two opposite things,
> you know you're in our century. It's still art--but it ceases to be
> truth about anything except the artist.
> I am avowedly behind the times on this, but I like to be told
> things I didn't know about the world by my art, or things I was too
> blurred to see clearly. Things about the author are lagniappe, not the
> main point.
>
Um, which do you want, the author-centered anime, or anime in which the
ego of the verkakte auteur is not the point?
Christian Smith
<macross3...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:
>>Neither is Sailor Moon, so far as I can tell. Bummer.
>>
>
>Yeah. Just because you see an outline of her form doesn't mean
>she's naked. And she isn't. We don't see anything THUS it is
>simply an ordinary, flashy transformation.
No matter what Usagi is wearing when she transforms, the image
of her during transformation is of her body, not her clothes. If it
isn't nudity, it's at least sexualization of the transformation
sequence. I don't want to belabor this point; Sailor Moon is way low
on the list of sexist anime; the sexism of the transformation sequence
is just lifted from the tradition Sailor Moon operates within (Minky
Momo, etc.) and is no more--or less--sexist than Nurse Angel Ririka,
the anime of Akazukin Cha-Cha, or Wedding Peach.
>Btw, D-Boy from Tekkaman Blade (Teknoman) goes nude when he
>transforms.
Yeah, I thought of that. There are many more nude females in
transformation sequences though. Cutey Honey and Devil Hunter Yohko
come to mind immediately, and though it isn't quite the same, the
"transformations" in BGC also involve nudity. The mecha pilots in
Iczer are naked, and so on.
Christian Smith
>> Because "bitch" is also about sexuality. "Asshole" isn't.
>
>Then I'd have to say that by that definition Priss isn't a bitch in the first
>place.
You don't think Priss is a sexualized character?
Christian Smith
<rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>If you say so. I hadn't really noticed that the Zentraedi chick
>had less personality than the guy with the glasses and yet I wouldn't
>characterise her as either sexy or castrating.
You may not find Milia sexy (I don't), but being sexy is part
of what the designers intended. Hence Max's reaction to her.
>I do not understand what you are talking about. Frankly I don't regard
>characters like Priss as castrating bitches, and I'm rather surprised
>you do.
I *don't*. From the evidence, the Japanese creators do.