Recommend romantic, sensitive, ... hentai?
Daijoubu
(1) do not have tentacles
(2) is romantic
(3) is not "angry" (I want heartwarming, plesant hentai, not
coersion/submission).
(4) is actually a good story with hentai in it instead of hentai with some
story grafted on.
(5) Leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling. (No cracks about what this means
please.)
I realize my request seems to contradict #4, but I'm
asking anyway. How is New Angel?
David Watson
> Are there any hentai anime titles that:
>
> (1) do not have tentacles
> (2) is romantic
> (3) is not "angry" (I want heartwarming, plesant hentai, not
> coersion/submission).
> (4) is actually a good story with hentai in it instead of hentai with some
> story grafted on.
> (5) Leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling. (No cracks about what this means
> please.)
Oh, gawd, he's gonna plug it again, isn't he?
Hyou betcha.
End of Summer and End of Summer 2 (get both tapes). Fits your criteria more
than any other title I've seen.
> I realize my request seems to contradict #4, but I'm
> asking anyway. How is New Angel?
Not very romantic, except somewhat at the end of the series. Also contains
some of that coercion/submission you're not too fond of. Still better
than the tentacle crap by a long shot, and still a favourite of mine.
--
Dave Watson, Severed Heads Liberation Front (Re-release the _Stretcher_ EP!)
Frezier Balzoff (Ottawa), Ontario, Canada Email--shlf [at] ncf [dot] ca
My music and anime webpage: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4207/
FOUR MORE YEARS OF MIKE HARRIS' FASCISM?? ONTARIO! WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?
Jonathan Mckinney
"Daijoubu" <daij...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000410004644...@ng-md1.aol.com...
> Are there any hentai anime titles that:
>
> (1) do not have tentacles
> (2) is romantic
> (3) is not "angry" (I want heartwarming, plesant hentai, not
> coersion/submission).
> (4) is actually a good story with hentai in it instead of hentai with some
> story grafted on.
> (5) Leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling. (No cracks about what this means
> please.)
>
icepick314
eirias
> news:20000410004644...@ng-md1.aol.com...
> > Are there any hentai anime titles that:
> >
> > (1) do not have tentacles
> > (2) is romantic
> > (3) is not "angry" (I want heartwarming, plesant hentai, not
> > coersion/submission).
> > (4) is actually a good story with hentai in it instead of hentai with some
> > story grafted on.
> > (5) Leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling. (No cracks about what this means
> > please.)
> >
> > I realize my request seems to contradict #4, but I'm
> > asking anyway. How is New Angel?
> >
The manga series Dance Till Tomorrow, though not hentai, has enough sex
to be mistaken as hentai.
--
President of the Boston University Anime Club.
Manga translations for 2 volumes of Yokohama Shopping Diary,
8 full volumes and 2 scanned issues of The Violinist of Hamelin,
Vol 13 of Berserk, and a scanned, retouched short story from Ace:
http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/translations/
David Watson
> You may wanna check out Magical Twilight.....fits the description, IMO.
Some elements of the first episode aren't very "romantic" at all, but eps 2
and 3 are damn good. Check those ones out.
Alan Kwan
wrote:
>End of Summer and End of Summer 2 (get both tapes).
Does anyone know what the Japanese title is, please?
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / ta...@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
Dimension S editor: http://www.digiweb.com/~dimension-sega/
vorko...@my-deja.com
ta...@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan) wrote:
> On 10 Apr 2000 06:38:54 GMT, aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson)
> wrote:
>
> >End of Summer and End of Summer 2 (get both tapes).
>
> Does anyone know what the Japanese title is, please?
Doukyusei a 4 episode OAV series with a couple of extra tapes, one
a "climax" collection and a single follow-up OAV. There may be more
extras, David should know if anyone here does.
(ADVision/SoftCel put two episodes in each their releases.)
There is a Doukyusei 2 OAV series, I don't know the exact number of
episodes. One of girls in Doukyusei does make an appearance in this
series.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David Watson
> On 10 Apr 2000 06:38:54 GMT, aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson)
> wrote:
>>End of Summer and End of Summer 2 (get both tapes).
> Does anyone know what the Japanese title is, please?
Doukyuusei: Natsu no Owari ni.
Patrick Drazen
Daijoubu wrote:
> Are there any hentai anime titles that:
>
> (1) do not have tentacles
> (2) is romantic
> (3) is not "angry" (I want heartwarming, plesant hentai, not
> coersion/submission).
> (4) is actually a good story with hentai in it instead of hentai with some
> story grafted on.
> (5) Leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling. (No cracks about what this means
> please.)
I have one called "Etude". And going back to the "Cream Lemon" series of the
80s, the 5 installments that make up the Ami Nonomura story-arc would
definitely fill the bill.
Patrick Drazen
Friend of Key
David Watson
> In article <38f20e64...@news.netvigator.com>,
> ta...@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan) wrote:
>> wrote:
>> >End of Summer and End of Summer 2 (get both tapes).
>> Does anyone know what the Japanese title is, please?
> a "climax" collection and a single follow-up OAV. There may be more
> extras, David should know if anyone here does.
The two followups are both called Climax Files. The only other extra that
was made was My Sweet Memories, which was an (IMHO) poor attempt to
summarize all six OVAs in an hour.
> (ADVision/SoftCel put two episodes in each their releases.)
They haven't released the Climax Files, in case there might be some
confusion. I wish they would.
> There is a Doukyusei 2 OAV series, I don't know the exact number of
> episodes. One of girls in Doukyusei does make an appearance in this
> series.
10 OVAs and--no kidding--a TV series. I saw another video reviewed in the
Japanese mags a few months ago; I presume it's a follow-up to the TV
series.
And if that's not enough, there's three different versions of Kakyuusei
(two OVA series--one of which has been released by Soft Cel under the name
First Loves--and a TV series) and Tenkousei, all of which are based on the
sequel dating sim games by elf. If I'm ever able to afford to buy all
this shit in my lifetime, on top of the life necessities, then I know I'm
doing all right.
Alan Kwan
wrote:
>Alan Kwan (ta...@notmenetvigator.com) writes:
>> On 10 Apr 2000 06:38:54 GMT, aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson)
>> wrote:
>>>End of Summer and End of Summer 2 (get both tapes).
>> Does anyone know what the Japanese title is, please?
>
>Doukyuusei: Natsu no Owari ni.
I see. But doesn't that violate criteria #4? ^_^;
>>Daijoubu (daij...@aol.com) writes:
>>> Are there any hentai anime titles that:
>>>
>>> (4) is actually a good story with hentai in it instead of hentai with some
>>> story grafted on.
M Arnold
>(3) is not "angry" (I want heartwarming, plesant hentai, not
>coersion/submission).
Well I don't doubt that most boys renting these tapes find them entirely
"heartwarming" and reassuring... However the idea of "anger" or
resentment towards female power (dependence on the mother?) is one theory
as to why men draw women as either mamas or kiddie girls instead of equals
in media and fiction (whether or not the characters themselves act
outwardly violent). In a video you don't necessarily have to act out
coercive dialogue or action in order to make the woman sexually service
the guy (or be serviced) according to his wet dreams.
>(5) Leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling. (No cracks about what this
>means please.)
Not likely. (And yes I have seen Doukyuusei, as everyone here probably
knows by now.) With or without tentacles, what I've seen of Japanese porn
always boils down to male prerogative and sexual power*, not romance or
human relationship. I suppose there just aren't enough women paying and
watching these films and videos to have an influence on the market (good
heterosexual 'girls' surely don't want to *watch* men and women having
sex... or so the propaganda goes...). What you'll find are the images
dateless Japanese men want to see--high school girls lusting to be 'had'
by their sempai or sensei, young OLs who can't get enough of their
Section Chiefs and Company Presidents, class dream-date girls who lust
after the middle-of-the-road loser and then disappear after sex... it's
all about men sitting on the apartment floor watching "women" on a TV
screen. I'm afraid the only fuzzy feeling you'll find in these tapes is
the one you don't want to joke about.
* One possible exception, as I've mentioned before, is Oshima's "In the
Realm of the Senses," but does that fit the same definition of "porn"?
One problem is this: taking away the image of the tentacle or monster
doesn't necessarily take away the attitudes in the story drawn into the
monster. These "tentacles" become a scapegoat for the attitudes people
don't want to literally *see* and don't want to admit are woven into the
vast majority of these narratives. "No tentacles? Oh then it must be
nice." That's just too simple.
>(4) is actually a good story with hentai in it instead of hentai with
>some story grafted on.
You won't have to look far to find some kind of story. How "good" it is,
though, depends on you. I think a lot of people here are too anxious to
finally discover really "good" story-driven, romantic porn cartoons to
justify their non-sexual and 'clean' interest in the genre, and they end
up giving mediocre, tentacle-less videos much more credit than they
deserve. The cold reality is that sexual expression is really crippled in
Japan today. Cartoon porn is no exception.
If you're going to watch, watch it all. Tentacles, monsters, high
schoolers... once you start to understand what's out there and know better
what you think is 'unpleasant' about these it might be easier to locate
stories that are more comfortable.
And, as I anticipate a flurry of comments in response to this message
saying that my statements are a trojan horse for accusations of
"pedophilia" directed towards a certain individual(s), let me warn you to
take all the advice in this thread with a grain of salt. Nobody here,
including myself, will be able to tell you what you want to see, and
you're not going to know either until after you've seen it.
Mike A
David Watson
> On 10 Apr 2000 19:14:53 GMT, aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson)
> wrote:
>>Alan Kwan (ta...@notmenetvigator.com) writes:
>>> On 10 Apr 2000 06:38:54 GMT, aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson)
>>> wrote:
>>>>End of Summer and End of Summer 2 (get both tapes).
>>> Does anyone know what the Japanese title is, please?
>>Doukyuusei: Natsu no Owari ni.
> I see. But doesn't that violate criteria #4? ^_^;
>>>> story grafted on.
Them's fightin' words, Kwan. That's it. CDs at 10 paces. Be warned: I
have a lot of Japanese noise in the collection and a goddamn loud stereo
system.
Seriously, I (and quite a few others) think the story is so good that,
even if the sex wasn't so obvious, it would still work. And obviously the
people who made TV series out of Doukyuusei 2 and Kakyuusei agree.
David Watson
> daij...@aol.com (Daijoubu) writes:
>>(5) Leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling. (No cracks about what this
>>means please.)
> Not likely. (And yes I have seen Doukyuusei, as everyone here probably
> knows by now.)
You've said that you saw the first ep of Doukyuusei 2, which is a totally
different beast than Natsu no Owari ni/End of Summer. Have you had the
chance to see those OVAs yet, and, if so, what did you think?
> With or without tentacles, what I've seen of Japanese porn
> always boils down to male prerogative and sexual power*, not romance or
> human relationship. I suppose there just aren't enough women paying and
> watching these films and videos to have an influence on the market (good
> heterosexual 'girls' surely don't want to *watch* men and women having
> sex... or so the propaganda goes...).
I've heard that studies say that most men prefer visual stimulation and
most women textual in this field. I repeat, most; of course, there'll be
exceptions. And what about women who make H manga, like Yu Asagiri and
Ramia Ryo?
> What you'll find are the images
> dateless Japanese men want to see--high school girls lusting to be 'had'
> by their sempai or sensei, young OLs who can't get enough of their
> Section Chiefs and Company Presidents, class dream-date girls who lust
> after the middle-of-the-road loser and then disappear after sex... it's
> all about men sitting on the apartment floor watching "women" on a TV
> screen. I'm afraid the only fuzzy feeling you'll find in these tapes is
> the one you don't want to joke about.
Here's one exception nobody's really brought up: Tokio Private Police.
While the first sex scene in the first OVA--a rape on a subway car--really
put me off, the remaining scenes in the two OVAs fit none of the above
scenarios. Equals on a private police team (the two superiors with each
other and the four fieldworkers pairing off) linking up eventually and
steaming the place up, and even staying with each other afterward (despite
one temptation to stray). Now, that's more like it. And no high school
girls or mothers anywhere. dB)
>>(4) is actually a good story with hentai in it instead of hentai with
>>some story grafted on.
> You won't have to look far to find some kind of story. How "good" it is,
> though, depends on you. I think a lot of people here are too anxious to
> finally discover really "good" story-driven, romantic porn cartoons to
> justify their non-sexual and 'clean' interest in the genre, and they end
> up giving mediocre, tentacle-less videos much more credit than they
> deserve. The cold reality is that sexual expression is really crippled in
> Japan today. Cartoon porn is no exception.
Well, it's not exactly flying that free in North America, either. As for
your contention, what's wrong with trying to seek the best of both
worlds--story and sex? That's one of the reasons I love U-Jin's work.
I read the chapter in the Erotic Anime Movie Guide about U-Jin's series
Konai Shasei (the "Tales of..." series), and it made a good point that I
only just vaguely had my finger on before: He doesn't give the male
characters in his work very much slack. None of them are perfect. At the
least, they're dysfunctional in some way, and at the most, they're sick
(and ugly, too). I don't think this would redress the balance of power
you seek, but it at least proves that someone's bucking the trend you talk
about in some way. And yes, I have seen some non-violent stuff that I
thought sucked, like Slight Fever Syndrome (don't know the Japanese
title). Wanted to like that one, but it just didn't work.
> And, as I anticipate a flurry of comments in response to this message
> saying that my statements are a trojan horse for accusations of
> "pedophilia" directed towards a certain individual(s),
None found in this post, so no comments to make there.
> let me warn you to
> take all the advice in this thread with a grain of salt. Nobody here,
> including myself, will be able to tell you what you want to see, and
> you're not going to know either until after you've seen it.
This is very true, but he wanted suggestions, and I and a couple of others
have made them. Nothing wrong with that. I take musical suggestions now
and again, but I ultimately have to listen to determine whether to pursue
them further or not.
Francisco Ho
>
> Are there any hentai anime titles that:
>
> (2) is romantic
> coersion/submission).
> story grafted on.
> please.)
As many have already pointed out, Doukyuusei (End of Summer). If you are
willing to import from Japan, there are Doukyuusei 2, Kakyuusei (only
episode 4 has H-scene, AFAIK), Tenkousei and Dousoukai, although the
later, at the end, gives you a "Huh? It ends here?" Not your typical
"good" ending.
Allister Huggins
> >>means please.)
<snip>
> > What you'll find are the images
> > dateless Japanese men want to see--high school girls lusting to be 'had'
> > by their sempai or sensei, young OLs who can't get enough of their
> > Section Chiefs and Company Presidents, class dream-date girls who lust
> > after the middle-of-the-road loser and then disappear after sex... it's
<snip>
> Here's one exception nobody's really brought up: Tokio Private Police.
<snip>
> one temptation to stray). Now, that's more like it. And no high school
> girls or mothers anywhere. dB)
Any webpages for this series? I assume it hasn't been picked up for
release NA-side so where would be my best bet finding this?
Allister H.
Kevin Lighton
> David Watson wrote:
>> Here's one exception nobody's really brought up: Tokio Private Police.
> Any webpages for this series? I assume it hasn't been picked up for
> release NA-side so where would be my best bet finding this?
It's been released in the US. I don't know which company, though (I think it's
Anime18).
Ja, mata
--
Kevin Lighton lig...@bestweb.net or shin...@operamail.com
http://members.tripod.com/~shinma_kl/main.html
"Townsfolk can get downright touchy over the occasional earth-elemental in
the scullery. Can't imagine why..." Quenten _Winds of Fate_
David Watson
>
>
>> one temptation to stray). Now, that's more like it. And no high school
>> girls or mothers anywhere. dB)
>
> release NA-side so where would be my best bet finding this?
It has been, and released by Kitty Media. Sub VHS only at this point.
http://www.media-blasters.com/kitty/index.htm
M Arnold
>On the other hand, it could be that the anime is aimed at a teenage audience
>for whom "girls" *are* equals,
Do you honestly think that's true?
Mike A
M Arnold
>even if the sex wasn't so obvious, it would still work. And obviously the
>people who made TV series out of Doukyuusei 2 and Kakyuusei agree.
Have you seen it? Was there any nudity or "sex"?
Mike A
M Arnold
>You've said that you saw the first ep of Doukyuusei 2, which is a totally
>different beast than Natsu no Owari ni/End of Summer. Have you had the
I have noted several times that I have seen the U.S. release of "End of
Summer" as well. Not recently, as I said (that's one of the reasons I was
trying to track it down again), but I believe you recently wrote that it's
been a while for you as well... so?
>I've heard that studies say that most men prefer visual stimulation and
>most women textual in this field.
I don't buy that for a second. Society, education, and culture play a
very big role in what men and women choose to "prefer".
>And what about women who make H manga, like Yu Asagiri and Ramia Ryo?
Sure, what about them?
>your contention, what's wrong with trying to seek the best of both
>worlds--story and sex? That's one of the reasons I love U-Jin's work.
There's nothing wrong with seeking the best of those worlds. That's one
of the reasons I don't love that work.
>only just vaguely had my finger on before: He doesn't give the male
>characters in his work very much slack. None of them are perfect. At the
>least, they're dysfunctional in some way, and at the most, they're sick
>(and ugly, too).
So what? Think about it--have most of the porno films you've seen been
about popular, perfect, muscular, or fully 'functional' men? Are the
'men' of Urotsukidoji functional and good-looking?
>I don't think this would redress the balance of power you seek, but it at
>least proves that someone's bucking the trend you talk about in some way.
I really doubt that it proves anything of the sort, David.
>> And, as I anticipate a flurry of comments in response to this message
>> saying that my statements are a trojan horse for accusations of
>> "pedophilia" directed towards a certain individual(s),
>None found in this post, so no comments to make there.
Congratulations.
Mike A
Alan Kwan
had good story, and it gave me the impression that the video game
would be $hi+ too. And then I got to play the game (on Saturn), and
my impression changed entirely. The game was pretty decent. I'm sure
that I'm not the only person who thinks that turning the game into an
anime series has screwed up the story. The story in the anime just
looks like an excuse for serial sex.
I also think that Tenkousei has got much better story than Doukyuusei
2. I don't really know about Doukyuusei 1 and Kakyuusei.
On 11 Apr 2000 02:57:17 GMT, aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson)
wrote:
>Alan Kwan (ta...@notmenetvigator.com) writes:
>> On 10 Apr 2000 19:14:53 GMT, aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson)
>> wrote:
>>>Alan Kwan (ta...@notmenetvigator.com) writes:
>>>> On 10 Apr 2000 06:38:54 GMT, aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>End of Summer and End of Summer 2 (get both tapes).
>>>> Does anyone know what the Japanese title is, please?
>>>Doukyuusei: Natsu no Owari ni.
>> I see. But doesn't that violate criteria #4? ^_^;
>>>>> Are there any hentai anime titles that:
>>>>> (4) is actually a good story with hentai in it instead of hentai with some
>>>>> story grafted on.
>
>Them's fightin' words, Kwan. That's it. CDs at 10 paces. Be warned: I
>have a lot of Japanese noise in the collection and a goddamn loud stereo
>system.
>
>Seriously, I (and quite a few others) think the story is so good that,
>even if the sex wasn't so obvious, it would still work. And obviously the
>people who made TV series out of Doukyuusei 2 and Kakyuusei agree.
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / ta...@notmenetvigator.com
David Watson
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
>>even if the sex wasn't so obvious, it would still work. And obviously the
>>people who made TV series out of Doukyuusei 2 and Kakyuusei agree.
The TV series? No, not yet.
David Watson
>>different beast than Natsu no Owari ni/End of Summer. Have you had the
> I have noted several times that I have seen the U.S. release of "End of
> Summer" as well. Not recently, as I said (that's one of the reasons I was
> trying to track it down again), but I believe you recently wrote that it's
No, it's been a long while since I watched Urotsukidoji. Don't remember the
last time I watched EoS, but it wasn't too long ago. Am working on anime
music videos for it, so I'll be watching it again soon.
>>I've heard that studies say that most men prefer visual stimulation and
>>most women textual in this field.
> I don't buy that for a second. Society, education, and culture play a
> very big role in what men and women choose to "prefer".
I hang around with two women at the anime clubs who love yaoi anime fanfic.
Don't know how they'd feel about watching a real gay porno film, though.
>>And what about women who make H manga, like Yu Asagiri and Ramia Ryo?
> Sure, what about them?
Well, what do *you* have to say about them? That's why I brought it up.
>>your contention, what's wrong with trying to seek the best of both
>>worlds--story and sex? That's one of the reasons I love U-Jin's work.
> There's nothing wrong with seeking the best of those worlds. That's one
> of the reasons I don't love that work.
Well, that's purely subjective. Just because some plots might not be very
deep, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're bad. I love Evangelion,
but that doesn't mean that everything I watch has to be/act profound.
>>only just vaguely had my finger on before: He doesn't give the male
>>characters in his work very much slack. None of them are perfect. At the
>>least, they're dysfunctional in some way, and at the most, they're sick
>>(and ugly, too).
> So what? Think about it--have most of the porno films you've seen been
> about popular, perfect, muscular, or fully 'functional' men? Are the
> 'men' of Urotsukidoji functional and good-looking
Some male characters may be given quirks that are mined for humour, but are
generally put "on top" at the end, like Takeru in the Dragon Knight series.
As for U-doji, I thought that Amano Jyaku was one bad muthashutyomouth, and
the male lead's cousin was a decent lad, which is one of the reasons
Amano's sister Megumi fell in love with him.
>>I don't think this would redress the balance of power you seek, but it at
>>least proves that someone's bucking the trend you talk about in some way.
> I really doubt that it proves anything of the sort, David.
Maybe not to you, but then again, you've always dismissed evidence
contrary to your statements in these threads.
M Arnold
>>>On the other hand, it could be that the anime is aimed at a teenage audience
>>>for whom "girls" *are* equals,
>>Do you honestly think that's true?
>I haven't seen it. But I do know that it's not about salarymen going after
>OLs. Both sexes in it are teenagers, and it's aimed at teenagers, which
Oh come on, do you seriously believe that there is an "equal" audience of
"teenagers" watching this, just because it's not an OL porn? For goodness
sake, get your head out of the sand.
Mike A
M Arnold
>> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
>>>even if the sex wasn't so obvious, it would still work. And obviously the
>>>people who made TV series out of Doukyuusei 2 and Kakyuusei agree.
>> Have you seen it? Was there any nudity or "sex"?
>The TV series? No, not yet.
You haven't seen it or there wasn't any nudity or sex?
Mike A
David Watson
The original Douk LDs are rated for 15 and above, so it may well have been
enjoyed by plenty of people (mostly guys, I'm sure) between 15-18 in
Japan. For all I know, the copies I bought may well have been owned by
somebody in that age bracket.
M Arnold
>Don't remember the last time I watched EoS, but it wasn't too long ago.
Well I guess it wasn't really that long ago for me either...
>Don't know how they'd feel about watching a real gay porno film, though.
I'm still trying to find a "real" gay film in Japan.
So what did you think of "Crash"?
>>>And what about women who make H manga, like Yu Asagiri and Ramia Ryo?
>> Sure, what about them?
>Well, what do *you* have to say about them? That's why I brought it up.
Well, I'll tell if you share your thoughts on "Ryoma Ansatsu". OK?
>Well, that's purely subjective. Just because some plots might not be very
>deep, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're bad. I love Evangelion,
I don't need a plot people can praise and complain about for being "deep",
I just want something with more depth than a cliched series of events
leading to the guy 'getting' the 'girl' and performing a poorly acted act
of sex 'on' her for 2 1/2 minutes.
>but that doesn't mean that everything I watch has to be/act profound.
You know I didn't say it had to be...
>>>I don't think this would redress the balance of power you seek, but it at
>>>least proves that someone's bucking the trend you talk about in some way.
>> I really doubt that it proves anything of the sort, David.
>Maybe not to you, but then again, you've always dismissed evidence
>contrary to your statements in these threads.
Not to me? Well, maybe you missed (dismissed?) my point, but there's
nothing necessarily unusual or "balanced" about dorky, wimpy, monstrous or
otherwise somehow 'incomplete' male characters in porn. This example you
think "bucks" the trend has been part of the trend for a long time.
Mike A
M Arnold
>>>I haven't seen it. But I do know that it's not about salarymen going after
>>>OLs. Both sexes in it are teenagers, and it's aimed at teenagers, which
>> Oh come on, do you seriously believe that there is an "equal" audience of
>> "teenagers" watching this, just because it's not an OL porn? For goodness
>> sake, get your head out of the sand.
>The original Douk LDs are rated for 15 and above, so it may well have been
>enjoyed by plenty of people (mostly guys, I'm sure) between 15-18 in
>Japan. For all I know, the copies I bought may well have been owned by
>somebody in that age bracket.
Right -- *Guys*. Not just "teenagers" in general, and definitely not an
equal, mixed audience of male and female "teenagers". Regardless of
whether the characters are OLs or not.
Does North America have anything similar? A slightly watered-down male
porn genre marketed to minors? ("15" is like an R rating. Explicit adult
films are 18+, legal adulthood in Japan is 20.)
Mike A
Justin Roby
wrote:
> Does North America have anything similar? A slightly watered-down male
> porn genre marketed to minors? ("15" is like an R rating. Explicit adult
> films are 18+, legal adulthood in Japan is 20.)
>
> Mike A
One word: "Skinamax" ;) Or, heck, even the Spice/Playboy channels,
though still for "adults only" cut out all the shots of penetration.
To quote Bill Hicks "If somebody doesn't end up gooey, it's not porn."
I guess the interesting thing is that the US market allows for far more
graphic depictions of sex on video (though not, apparently, on cable)
than Japan does, as Mike noted in a snipped portion of the post I
quoted here. But, then again, breasts are fairly commonplace in some
80s anime (Maison Ikkoku, Ranma, UY), where the furthest the US has
gotten as far as on-air (commercial TV) nudity is the occasional butt.
Justin
David Watson
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
>>M Arnold (n934...@cc.wwu.edu) writes:
>>>>even if the sex wasn't so obvious, it would still work. And obviously the
>>>>people who made TV series out of Doukyuusei 2 and Kakyuusei agree.
>>> Have you seen it? Was there any nudity or "sex"?
>>The TV series? No, not yet.
> You haven't seen it or there wasn't any nudity or sex?
Oh, sorry. Haven't seen any of the series yet, except for the Kakyuusei
OP sequence, which was quite innocuous.
M Arnold
>In article <8d0lgu$fl4$1...@ra.cc.wwu.edu>, M Arnold <n934...@cc.wwu.edu>
>wrote:
>One word: "Skinamax" ;) Or, heck, even the Spice/Playboy channels,
>though still for "adults only" cut out all the shots of penetration.
Okay, but if I'm not mistaken you still have to be 18 to order those... ??
>To quote Bill Hicks "If somebody doesn't end up gooey, it's not porn."
Hmm. None of the early 80s Nikkatsu Roman[ce] Porn videos I've seen have
been gooey, and they're all 18+. All of the more recent video porn I've
seen has been very gooey, you just can't see the organs that produce the
"shot". (Of course I'm talking about Japanese work unless I note
otherwise.)
>I guess the interesting thing is that the US market allows for far more
>graphic depictions of sex on video (though not, apparently, on cable)
Well, video and film. Porn in the U.S. was graphic in the theatres before
video was invented.
>quoted here. But, then again, breasts are fairly commonplace in some
>80s anime (Maison Ikkoku, Ranma, UY), where the furthest the US has
Not to mention Doraemon, unmistakably a "kids'" show. There's also
occasional female topless nudity in TV dramas (and commercials?? I have a
vague memory of one...) and late-night sex talk shows.
>gotten as far as on-air (commercial TV) nudity is the occasional butt.
Yep. Men's butts too. Even in the late-night Japanese shows, the men are
mostly middle aged, ugly or overweight. The 'girls' are all early 20s.
I just found an article about porno multimedia at www.jcult.com. Check out
the "Previous Feature Articles" on the bottom of the page. I haven't read
it yet...
Mike A
David Watson
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
>>M Arnold (n934...@cc.wwu.edu) writes:
> I'm still trying to find a "real" gay film in Japan.
> So what did you think of "Crash"?
Never watched it. I have songs by the Normal ("Warm Leatherette") and
Bubonique ("2 J.G.") based on the novel, though. That suffices for now.
I'm not that much of a live-action movie type. Or did you mean the novel?
Haven't read that yet, but maybe I'll look for it next time I'm in the
library.
>>>>And what about women who make H manga, like Yu Asagiri and Ramia Ryo?
>>> Sure, what about them?
>>Well, what do *you* have to say about them? That's why I brought it up.
> Well, I'll tell if you share your thoughts on "Ryoma Ansatsu". OK?
Who/what is Ryoma Ansatsu?
> I don't need a plot people can praise and complain about for being "deep",
> I just want something with more depth than a cliched series of events
> leading to the guy 'getting' the 'girl' and performing a poorly acted act
> of sex 'on' her for 2 1/2 minutes.
Suit yourself, but I can still dig it if it's done well, and I think it's
done very well in EoS. I could talk about how the guitar-bass-drums
format makes for tired, cliched music, except that bands like Therapy?
come along and kick my ass using those very same tools. Style and
execution make all the difference.
>>>>I don't think this would redress the balance of power you seek, but it at
>>>>least proves that someone's bucking the trend you talk about in some way.
>>> I really doubt that it proves anything of the sort, David.
>>Maybe not to you, but then again, you've always dismissed evidence
>>contrary to your statements in these threads.
> Not to me? Well, maybe you missed (dismissed?) my point, but there's
> nothing necessarily unusual or "balanced" about dorky, wimpy, monstrous or
> otherwise somehow 'incomplete' male characters in porn. This example you
> think "bucks" the trend has been part of the trend for a long time.
How many of those characters are *kept* that way in those other examples?
I've only seen one story by U-Jin where the male lead ends up in an
honestly committed relationship, and that was New Angel. All the rest
of his I've seen are thwarted one way or another.
aku...@my-deja.com
the Dave and Mike homoerotic "you suck, no you suck" show that will
eventually devolve into 30 posts on this subject)....
For romantic 'hentai', I also think the animes End of Summer or First
Loves (both translated and available in the US) fit your bill. The
stories are not epic fiction and the sex follows the staid "kiss,
fondle, lick, climax" formula, but the tapes are satisfying in the way
that you requested. They are nice compromises to the hentai formula.
If you would like untranslated or more original soft hentai, then try
checking out original shoujo (girls manga) - shoujo doesn't have the
overweening fanservice (ubiquitous panty shots or unnatural poses) so
prevalent in Japanese male fiction but it does sex. Also, women's
fiction/manga is extremely hardcore - there are scenes in there that
would make men blush (contrast that with the graphic nature of English
romances).
UJin also comes to mind as non-tentacally (who was it who said the
English language is constantly being updated with new words?) hentai.
I will give you my personal opinion on Ujin - I hate it all. But then
again, my first Ujin was Visionary - which featured the most repulsive
male lead I have ever seen in any anime and a plot line that featured
sex with squirrel. Most guys really do like Ujin's work - perhaps it
really is more male-friendly than female.
If you are looking for the less disgusting hentai to impress a girl,
may I recommend you find the fansubs of romantic shoujo such as
Marmalade Boy or Hana Yori Dango? There isn't any graphic sex as such,
but the romance is so female oriented in those shows that I've yet to
meet a girl who hasn't turned into a pile of romantic goo from watching
it (as I recall, I began to say "I love you" to my cat somewhere after
the 24th episode and began attacking my fiance for sexual favors around
episode 31).
Hope this helps!
Andrea Kunstt
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
M Arnold
>If the man is powerless, it's bad because the man is powerless. If the man is
>powerful, it's bad because the man is powerful. That's a double standard.
Well, more than that it's an extremely simplistic reading of the
situation. Let's not forget that this "story" is happening on a TV
screen, and there's one more character--the guy in the room watching and
excitedly massaging the remote. What power does he have?
Mike A
M Arnold
>You seem to be arguing two different things and switching to one whenever
>someone calls you on the other one.
No, you just have a hard time understanding. Maybe if you didn't need to
find something to argue with so quickly...
Mike A
The Beer Pirate
I'd recommend the manga "Karada wa Hachimitsu" (A Body Like Honey/Her Body is
Honey). I can't remember the author right now, but it was in the monthly
Betsufure for a while. It will probably appeal more to women than men... it's
a series of short stories about high school girls who each have a hangup about
themselves or their bodies, and how they learn to heal that - in the "Marvin
Gaye sense" [tm Carl Horn] - with the eager aid of a male friend or crush.
The art's nice, too - more solid than your typical shoujo.
--------------------------------
Arr, come to the Beer Pirate's lair. Ye'll find anime, photography, graphic
design, and more:
http://www.big-big-truck.com
M Arnold
>I'm not that much of a live-action movie type. Or did you mean the novel?
I meant Cronenberg's movie. Despite the occasional boring racial
stereotype, he poses some interesting questions about sexuality
(especially in "Crash").
Live-action's probably closer to cartoons than you think. It might be
interesting for you to look a little into live action Japanese movies too.
>Suit yourself, but I can still dig it if it's done well
So can I.
>done very well in EoS. I could talk about how the guitar-bass-drums
>format makes for tired, cliched music, except that bands like Therapy?
>come along and kick my ass using those very same tools.
>Style and execution make all the difference.
It's more than just style. Hell, popular bands are still trying to come
to terms with and capitalize on what Neil Young and The Velvet Underground
did 30 years ago. In a similar sense, cartoon porn is re-styling but
repeating cliches projected in theatres 20 or 30 years ago. Style and
execution alone won't make up for ignorance about the re-treaded content.
>> nothing necessarily unusual or "balanced" about dorky, wimpy, monstrous or
>> otherwise somehow 'incomplete' male characters in porn. This example you
>> think "bucks" the trend has been part of the trend for a long time.
>How many of those characters are *kept* that way in those other examples?
That really seems to depend on the episode, doesn't it. Which "other
examples" were you talking about, exactly?
>I've only seen one story by U-Jin where the male lead ends up in an
>honestly committed relationship, and that was New Angel. All the rest
>of his I've seen are thwarted one way or another.
The relationships are? Why (how)?
Mike A
vorko...@my-deja.com
aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) wrote:
> (vorko...@my-deja.com) writes:
> > In article <38f20e64...@news.netvigator.com>,
> > ta...@notmenetvigator.com (Alan Kwan) wrote:
> >> On 10 Apr 2000 06:38:54 GMT, aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David
Watson)
> >> wrote:
> >> >End of Summer and End of Summer 2 (get both tapes).
> >> Does anyone know what the Japanese title is, please?
> > a "climax" collection and a single follow-up OAV. There may be more
> > extras, David should know if anyone here does.
>
> The two followups are both called Climax Files. The only other extra
that
> was made was My Sweet Memories, which was an (IMHO) poor attempt to
> summarize all six OVAs in an hour.
I have a VideoCD of a Doukyusei follow-up where the guy Kurumi dumped
gets a girl of his own. Someone new, dark blue hair braided and wears
glasses. This OVA also brought back Misa who has a key to Wataru's
apartment. The other three girls seem content to share Wataru though
they are not above trying to get some excluscive time as Satomim
tries to do.
The major plot revolves around the new girl and Kurumi's ex and takes
place in a single day during a school festival and bonfire.
David Watson
> I'll put my 2 cent recommendations in here as a female (if only to stop
> the Dave and Mike homoerotic "you suck, no you suck" show that will
> eventually devolve into 30 posts on this subject)....
If it only wasn't for his chronic bullshitting (and hence my chronic
attempts to cut through it), it wouldn't be so bad.
> For romantic 'hentai', I also think the animes End of Summer or First
> Loves (both translated and available in the US) fit your bill. The
> stories are not epic fiction and the sex follows the staid "kiss,
> fondle, lick, climax" formula, but the tapes are satisfying in the way
> that you requested. They are nice compromises to the hentai formula.
Amen, sister. A woman who I vaguely knew from a now-defunct club was
digging through the top rack at this shop I used to frequent (RIP),
looking for suggestions. The clerk passed the matter on to me; he knows
me well dB). I suggested EoS 1 & 2 to her. She loved it, and we've been
keeping in touch and hanging out at the still-fuctioning clubs since.
> If you would like untranslated or more original soft hentai, then try
> checking out original shoujo (girls manga) - shoujo doesn't have the
> overweening fanservice (ubiquitous panty shots or unnatural poses) so
> prevalent in Japanese male fiction but it does sex. Also, women's
> fiction/manga is extremely hardcore - there are scenes in there that
> would make men blush (contrast that with the graphic nature of English
> romances).
Hmm? Want to name some manga examples? I'll check out anything once.
> UJin also comes to mind as non-tentacally (who was it who said the
> English language is constantly being updated with new words?) hentai.
> I will give you my personal opinion on Ujin - I hate it all. But then
> again, my first Ujin was Visionary - which featured the most repulsive
> male lead I have ever seen in any anime and a plot line that featured
> sex with squirrel. Most guys really do like Ujin's work - perhaps it
> really is more male-friendly than female.
He has made one tentacle title, Fobia. While the monsters in the manga
are good examples of copping H.R. Giger's style, I thought the first OVA
sucked, and I have no plans to check out the second. And yes, his stuff is
pretty much for the lads. I already discounted his stuff against the
original poster's criteria in my original reply to him.
> If you are looking for the less disgusting hentai to impress a girl,
> may I recommend you find the fansubs of romantic shoujo such as
> Marmalade Boy or Hana Yori Dango? There isn't any graphic sex as such,
> but the romance is so female oriented in those shows that I've yet to
> meet a girl who hasn't turned into a pile of romantic goo from watching
> it (as I recall, I began to say "I love you" to my cat somewhere after
> the 24th episode and began attacking my fiance for sexual favors around
> episode 31).
Haven't seen that much MB yet, but I think Hana Yori Dango is great. Why
not have a female lead in shoujo who shows some signs of guts now and
again? But, as decent as these are, they're not what the original poster
was looking for.
David Watson
Maybe if you were to make yourself easier to understand, you wouldn't
catch so much shit. Remember PsychoKick's words from the last time around
on this matter? If you've got something to say, don't cloud it.
David Watson
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
>>I'm not that much of a live-action movie type. Or did you mean the novel?
> I meant Cronenberg's movie. Despite the occasional boring racial
> stereotype, he poses some interesting questions about sexuality
> (especially in "Crash").
We'll see. For now, the cash is tight, and even tape rentals are a rarity
now. Yes, even anime.
> Live-action's probably closer to cartoons than you think. It might be
> interesting for you to look a little into live action Japanese movies too.
Of what sort? Titles?
> It's more than just style. Hell, popular bands are still trying to come
> to terms with and capitalize on what Neil Young and The Velvet Underground
> did 30 years ago. In a similar sense, cartoon porn is re-styling but
> repeating cliches projected in theatres 20 or 30 years ago. Style and
> execution alone won't make up for ignorance about the re-treaded content.
And if it wasn't for people enjoying those cliches, there wouldn't be a
market for them, would there?
>>> nothing necessarily unusual or "balanced" about dorky, wimpy, monstrous or
>>> otherwise somehow 'incomplete' male characters in porn. This example you
>>> think "bucks" the trend has been part of the trend for a long time.
>>How many of those characters are *kept* that way in those other examples?
> That really seems to depend on the episode, doesn't it. Which "other
> examples" were you talking about, exactly?
I meant in the overall picture you were decribing above of "porn," based
on what you've seen. Pardon me.
>>I've only seen one story by U-Jin where the male lead ends up in an
>>honestly committed relationship, and that was New Angel. All the rest
>>of his I've seen are thwarted one way or another.
> The relationships are? Why (how)?
Usually because the guy wasn't ideal enough for the woman to stay with
and/or a cad, sometimes because the story wasn't leading in that direction
anyway (i.e. the shorts that make up Konai Shasei), and, in one case, the
woman not seeming to get the clue that the man who's closest to her loves
her (Private Psycho Lesson), but that one has a pretty open-ended ending.
Oh, two examples of the man and woman staying together in U-jin's stories
happen in ep. 2 of New Angel (not the lead characters) and ep. 3 of
Visionary. Both involving skydiving, oddly enough.
M Arnold
>I'll put my 2 cent recommendations in here as a female (if only to stop
>the Dave and Mike homoerotic "you suck, no you suck" show that will
>eventually devolve into 30 posts on this subject)....
Hey, if we're gonna get homoerotic see if you can get Tom Cruise to join
in first. By the way, Eyes Wide Shut, without the "digital figures," is
going to be released on video in Japan this weekend, I think.
I still feel folks in the west are too quick to find reasons to praise a
lot of this porn, for one reason because the more I watch the more I see
that most of it *is* just cheap crap, for another because everyone's
looking from a point of view that is largely ignorant of the context these
stories are made and used in. You're coming from a culture that has
probably, over the last 20 years or so, just *started* to open these
issues up to new discussion and understanding and critical questioning
from different genders. Today's Japan is, dare I say it, just too
prudish. The discourse on sexuality in the west is years if not decades
ahead of Japan, in what I've seen. You've all heard me rant about this
before and I welcome you to track down published evidence on your own, but
in legal and social (and fictional) practice sexual power is in the hands
of men in this country, and issues like sex education, birth control, the
pill, STDs, homosexuality, reproductive rights, labor/pay equality and so
on are dragging behind in the dirt. *Men* have free access to sexual
expression and services--so far as I've seen these tapes only endorse
that. Sexual expression for women is, largely, left in the boundaries of
'appropriate behavior' that have been set for them. The idea of a
romantic-yet-explicit porn--with the implications that it doesn't stick to
the camera and cash-inspired patterns identified as "sex" by men's videos,
with the feeling that it could appeal to any "sexual" person without the
exploitation of the participants--is probably not going to appear in the
same places you'd expect to find it in another country. If it appears at
all. And I'm still looking.
That said though, women not watching the tapes (and not vocally
criticising their usually narrow 'eroticism') is probably the biggest
problem with pornography in Japan now. If that starts to happen when
they're shipped to the U.S. and other countries, even if that's a totally
alien use, it's a welcome change in my opinion. Incidentally, I think
Japan's arbitrary censorship also causes more problems than it solves.
It's interesting to see discussion in this group about how good or bad the
images of gays are in Japanese cartoons, but I wouldn't know where to
start looking to find a conversation like that in Japan. Do any of you
have any ideas? (I understand that male gay sexuality, exactly because it
is male, is privileged over female or lesbian sexuality in Japanese
society and media anyway. Japan also had a long tradition of not
necessarily "homosexual" male-male sex before the introduction of 'western
values'.)
How's that for making a mountain out of a molehill.
Mike A
M Arnold
>>screen, and there's one more character--the guy in the room watching and
>>excitedly massaging the remote. What power does he have?
>What kind of power do you think he has?
I could go into more detail, but let's leave it at this for now: The
power to single-handedly buy and watch all the "girls" and "sex" he wants,
however he wants. The power of a sexual market made for men and not
women.
Don't forget about the people using it, Ken.
Mike A
M Arnold
>catch so much shit. Remember PsychoKick's words from the last time around
>on this matter? If you've got something to say, don't cloud it.
Yeah, I remember how excited you got about something that, again, missed
the point.
There aren't any clouds over here; it's clear and sunny.
Should I hire someone to write footnotes for you?
Mike A
David Watson
You've got the second Climax Files OVA.
Louis Patterson
What do you mean here? Do you mean anything? Are you in fact an
escaped Eliza program, doomed to kibo usenet for any mention of
pornography, and render the argument by muttering either gnomically or
uninteligably [depending on how charitable the reader is [[and right
now he's not feeling very charitable at all]] ]? Is there any good
reason I should not killfile you?
>Don't forget about the people using it, Ken.
Of course, M Arnold doesn't need pornography; he gets his jollies from
trolling usenet. It supasses belief that no one here treats him like
the troll he is. I suspect the M stands for masturbator, I know he has
nothing worthwhile to say, and i do not intend to put up with his
idiocies any longer than I have to.
Statement: Gaza is better: he starts interesting threads
[occasionally] and *can* argue a point clearly [although he chooses
not to].
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l...@students.cs.mu.oz.au
M Arnold
>Of what sort? Titles?
What kind of anime do you like?
>And if it wasn't for people enjoying those cliches, there wouldn't be a
>market for them, would there?
No no no, the kids buying the tapes (or CDs) probably don't know enough
about what came before to realize it's a cliche. That's a big problem.
History.
>>>How many of those characters are *kept* that way in those other examples?
>> That really seems to depend on the episode, doesn't it. Which "other
>> examples" were you talking about, exactly?
>I meant in the overall picture you were decribing above of "porn," based
>on what you've seen. Pardon me.
Well, then I'd say it depends. I remember seeing a lot of cases where the
guy is somehow 'cured' or 'improved' after he's able to do it to the girl
(and then she disappears...).
>> The relationships are? Why (how)?
>Usually because the guy wasn't ideal enough for the woman to stay with
That would be a convenient excuse for the guy if the girlfriend gets
pregnant... <:-) "I know you've got a baby but I'm not good enough to be
the father! See yah!"
I think I've seen some skydiving episodes...
Mike A
M Arnold
>On 12 Apr 2000, M Arnold wrote:
>What do you mean here? Do you mean anything? Are you in fact an
>escaped Eliza program, doomed to kibo usenet for any mention of
>pornography,
Why do *you* think I am spending so much time on this?
I like sex! I also like movies, and (among other kinds) I like to watch
movies that are about sex. Especially if they're good movies, not so much
if they're not. I'm not so thrilled with watching cheaply drawn,
non-explicit cartoons about sex for 15 year olds (particularly ones that
you're supposed to watch alone in a dark room with a box of tissues) like
the ones we're probing here, but considering the intercourse between anime
porn and my other fields of interest, sometimes I do it anyway. If you
know what to look for and what you're looking at, there's a lot that can
be learned from these videos (except for technique in bed, that is).
Besides, sexuality and gender in the media and public discourse is not
just a question that's boxed off in the "porn" section... especially in
Japan.
>and render the argument by muttering either gnomically or
>uninteligably [depending on how charitable the reader is [[and right
I'm sure there are a lot of people on this group who either graduated from
High School or can use a dictionary. I don't think I need to cripple my
words into American Football announcer language in order to make my point.
>Statement: Gaza is better: he starts interesting threads
>[occasionally] and *can* argue a point clearly [although he chooses
And what makes you better then, Louis?
You're right though, I am a bit edgy today. All the pretty blossoms are
falling off the trees while I sit here in the office drinking strong
coffee...
Mike A
David Watson
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
>>Of what sort? Titles?
> What kind of anime do you like?
Quite a wide variety, from Studio Ghibli to Maison Ikkoku to non-violent
hardcore H. Never was large on mecha for its own sake, though, and
definitely not into the sell-merchandise-to-the-kiddies shows. Akira's in
my VCR now, and before that was Koko wa Greenwood. Strength Through
Diversity.
>>And if it wasn't for people enjoying those cliches, there wouldn't be a
>>market for them, would there?
> No no no, the kids buying the tapes (or CDs) probably don't know enough
> about what came before to realize it's a cliche. That's a big problem.
> History.
Someone who wrote me about you (and you make them physically ill, which is
why they didn't post) made the good point that no one is doing anything
new anymore. It's just all refried variations on what people have done
before.
>>>>How many of those characters are *kept* that way in those other examples?
>>> That really seems to depend on the episode, doesn't it. Which "other
>>> examples" were you talking about, exactly?
>>I meant in the overall picture you were decribing above of "porn," based
>>on what you've seen. Pardon me.
> Well, then I'd say it depends. I remember seeing a lot of cases where the
> guy is somehow 'cured' or 'improved' after he's able to do it to the girl
> (and then she disappears...).
Well, I haven't seen anything like that yet, but then again, I've watched
no Japanese live-action porn and very little of the domestic.
>>> The relationships are? Why (how)?
>>Usually because the guy wasn't ideal enough for the woman to stay with
> That would be a convenient excuse for the guy if the girlfriend gets
> pregnant... <:-) "I know you've got a baby but I'm not good enough to be
> the father! See yah!"
Nothing to do with pregnancy in these stories. And the "not staying" in a
large number of U-Jin's stories is the decision of the female characters
when they find out what shits the guys really are (and they usually leave
for other, better guys). But some are the men just using the women (a
short about a jaded songwriter who does idol debut songs in U-Jin Brand
comes to mind), and, in some cases, the couple staying together, like I
said.
David Watson
>>on this matter? If you've got something to say, don't cloud it.
>
> Yeah, I remember how excited you got about something that, again, missed
> the point.
>
> There aren't any clouds over here; it's clear and sunny.
>
> Should I hire someone to write footnotes for you?
Yes, for me and everybody else who eventually will conclude that you
aren't worth the hassle. The person you hire might be more coherent than
you are. It's not so much the level of the words you write as the
(dis)order you write them in and the words you leave out. Say what you
mean, mean what you say.
Tong Lin
Pineapple...
All Anime-18 stuff is hardcore... ^_^.
My suggestion would be
End of Summer
First Love
New Angels
"Together!! Allegiance or death, Big Fire!!"
-- The Magnificent 10
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Tong Lin ( Big Fire )
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~umlint ICQ: 13574460
Misat...@yahoo.com Yahoo Pager: Misato_san
University of Manitoba Anime Fan Club President
http://www.umanime.dhs.org
http://www.umanitoba.ca/student/groups/anime
The Beer Pirate
>know what to look for and what you're looking at, there's a lot that can
>be learned from these videos (except for technique in bed, that is).
Amen. I feel really, really sad for anyone who's "learned" from hentai or
porno flicks and then tried that crap on a real woman. Just goes to prove that
there *is* such a thing as bad sex.
Robert Hutchinson
> Should I hire someone to write footnotes for you?
Do you think that you should?
Robert Hutchinson
Matt Johnston
>
>Should I hire someone to write footnotes for you?
>
>Mike A
>
>
Please! I'd love some better documentation of your sources, as well as
proofs for your logical conclusions. Please use your standard dicrete
mathematics for this.
Hopefully,
--Matt
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Tell me where the fancy bred, by the hearth or in the bed?"
--William Shakespeare's 'Kama Sutra'
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
M Arnold
>Quite a wide variety, from Studio Ghibli to Maison Ikkoku to non-violent
>hardcore H. Never was large on mecha for its own sake, though, and
OK, well then what kind of live action movies are you interested in, or do
you think you would be interested in?
Keep in mind though, most of the videos releasd in North America are
high-class, black and white "classics" from the 50s and 60s like
Kurosawa.
Non-violent H huh. I was in the video store yesterday and I noticed that
the U-doji-style live action videos--which I haven't seen yet--are all
15+, not 18+.
>Someone who wrote me about you (and you make them physically ill, which is
>why they didn't post)
That's crazy. Didn't these people have sex ed. in school?
But hey, a physical reaction is what porn is all about, right? Of course
the same is true of horror movies...
>It's just all refried variations on what people have done before.
Well, it doesn't have to be. There's still a whole lot of room for new
ideas. How about Eva, for one example.
>Nothing to do with pregnancy in these stories.
That's a very astute observation. Here we are praising Japanese cartoons
for the "realism" of having characters actually die when they get shot,
but if the guy screws some girl without a condom in anime porn she doesn't
get pregnant, and more than that she often just disappears.
[Kare-Kano spoiler]
I forgot to write this yesterday, but the best sex in anime I've 'seen'
(using that verb loosely) is Kareshi Kanojo no Jijo.
Mike A
M Arnold
>You're getting into circular reasoning here. You *started* by claiming that
>showing "girls" in porn makes it bad, explaining that that is a power
Are you sure that's what I was claiming?
I think the 'girl' characters play a strong role in representing the power
conflict there, but I'm not saying that gender-power inequality in society
is caused by girl characters in Japanese porn. This becomes circular when
you start trying to paraphrase parts of my post that you don't (or are
trying not to) understand.
Mike A
M Arnold
>In article <8d19ej$n0k$1...@ra.cc.wwu.edu>, M Arnold <n934...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>More catch-22s. You've *already* said that if the guy isn't ideal but he
>*does* stay with the woman, then that's bad and sexist.
Did I? I did? I guess a short-circuit in my "circular reasoning" made me
forget that part. Can you quote me, where I wrote that please?
Mike A
M Arnold
>M Arnold wrote:
>> Should I hire someone to write footnotes for you?
>Do you think that you should?
Somehow I doubt it would be worth the effort. <:-/ Feeding folks' claims
of "confusion" in reading discussions on this group would probably only
take the thread more off topic anyway.
Mike A
Ken Arromdee
>>Nothing to do with pregnancy in these stories.
>That's a very astute observation. Here we are praising Japanese cartoons
>for the "realism" of having characters actually die when they get shot,
>but if the guy screws some girl without a condom in anime porn she doesn't
>get pregnant, and more than that she often just disappears.
Whee.
"It's sexist because it shows a wimpy, weak, guy, get the girl".
"Here's one where the girl leaves him and goes for someone else."
"Oh, in that case it could still be sexist because it allows the guy to have
an excuse for abandoning a pregnant girlfriend."
"Well, she's not pregnant in this."
"Hmm. I've got it! It's sexist because if he doesn't use a condom but
the girl doesn't get pregnant, that's an example of unrealistic consequences."
I mean, come on.
--
Ken Arromdee / arro...@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
"Eventually all companies are replaced." --Bill Gates, October 1999
David Watson
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
>>M Arnold (n934...@cc.wwu.edu) writes:
>>Quite a wide variety, from Studio Ghibli to Maison Ikkoku to non-violent
>>hardcore H. Never was large on mecha for its own sake, though, and
> OK, well then what kind of live action movies are you interested in, or do
> you think you would be interested in?
Well, the only ones I saw last year (and that's because a friend of mine
offered to take me and paid for my ticket) were Blair Witch Project, Dogma
and Sleepy Hollow, and I liked them all. The first live action (albeit
with bits of animation) DVD I'd like to pick up is Pink Floyd--The Wall
movie.
> Keep in mind though, most of the videos releasd in North America are
> high-class, black and white "classics" from the 50s and 60s like
> Kurosawa.
No prob.
> Non-violent H huh. I was in the video store yesterday and I noticed that
> the U-doji-style live action videos--which I haven't seen yet--are all
> 15+, not 18+.
Having heard about how cheesy those movies are, I'm not too surprised.
>>Someone who wrote me about you (and you make them physically ill, which is
>>why they didn't post)
> That's crazy. Didn't these people have sex ed. in school?
>
> But hey, a physical reaction is what porn is all about, right? Of course
> the same is true of horror movies...
No, you make them physically ill because they think you're a flaming
asshole who tries to find rape in every aspect of Japanese culture, who
probably takes some twisted pride in seeing yourself as "a sighted,
knowledgable one amidst willfully blind commoners, or a champion of
oppressed Asian women." So far, you don't seem to be disproving them.
>>It's just all refried variations on what people have done before.
> Well, it doesn't have to be. There's still a whole lot of room for new
> ideas. How about Eva, for one example.
I talked with the master of an izekaya in my friend's neighbourhood in
Osaka about manga and anime (about my love of Katsura and U-Jin's work, he
said that I had great taste), with translation help from my friend, and
mentioned that I loved Evangelion. The reply I got got translated as,
"There are two lines of thinking about Eva in Japan. Some people feel
it's the greatest anime since Gundam. Others feel it's a total ripoff of
Gundam." It's a refrying of the classic giant robot formula, albeit
an excellent one.
>>Nothing to do with pregnancy in these stories.
> That's a very astute observation. Here we are praising Japanese cartoons
> for the "realism" of having characters actually die when they get shot,
> but if the guy screws some girl without a condom in anime porn she doesn't
> get pregnant, and more than that she often just disappears.
In the Sakura Tsuushin manga, it does happen, and I think the woman got an
abortion; I'm not sure, but it wasn't carried to term. The manga is still
happening, and neither of the characters have disappeared.
M Arnold
>>>More catch-22s. You've *already* said that if the guy isn't ideal but he
>>>*does* stay with the woman, then that's bad and sexist.
>>Did I? I did? I guess a short-circuit in my "circular reasoning" made me
>>forget that part. Can you quote me, where I wrote that please?
>"Think about it--have most of the porno films you've seen been about popular,
>perfect, muscular, or fully 'functional' men?"
>In a context where you mention that stories where OLs "can't get enough of
>their Company Presidents" (implying that the characters stay together.
Ooh kaay... now please, as I asked, quote me where I wrote that a story is
bad because, as you put it, "the guy isn't ideal but he *does* stay with
the woman."
I wish you could back your imagination up with more facts, Ken.
I guess this is that kind of "homoerotic" posting-play the poster
yesterday expected to see develop... <:-/
Mike A
M Arnold
>Please! I'd love some better documentation of your sources, as well as
>proofs for your logical conclusions. Please use your standard dicrete
>mathematics for this.
You know what would help me out a lot? If you would note (that is, quote)
the parts of my posts.. the exact words you don't understand and direct my
attention to where the confusion is coming from. I'll try to clarify if I
can, but it doesn't help at all when people like Ken start acting confused
about points I'm not even trying to make...
I'd bet, though, that there are plenty of folks here who 'get it' too. How
hard can the point be? Most western viewers are trying to judge these
videos from a post-sexual revolution, post-pill "couples' porn" culture,
and I'm trying to say that there's effectively no precedent in Japanese
law, social relations, media discourse, history, or even comics and
cartoons to support the creation of the kind of porn (I think??) the
original poster was trying to look for.
It's not porn, but I thought the sex in Eva and especially Kare-Kano was
"good." They came with solid stories, were romantic and left a "fuzzy"
feeling (K-K) or at least tried to capture some of the reality of human
sexual relations (Eva) more than earlier anime... Porn's not bad in
itself, but it's got a long tradition of really poor use. Maybe what we
need to do is stop looking to the current selection at the XXX rental
store as "the" source for visual erotica, and instead of finding excuses
for defending the long-used and redundant cliches there think about all
the other ways explicit videos and images could (and are, in some cases in
other countries) be done.
Did anyone check out that article I found on multimedia porn in Japan
yesterday?
Mike A
M Arnold
>Well, the only ones I saw last year (and that's because a friend of mine
>offered to take me and paid for my ticket) were Blair Witch Project, Dogma
BWP was a hoot... kinda... but everybody said it was such a "new"
technique when it was just giving new attention to an old trick. [Focus]
(1996), a Japanese movie, did it much more effectively. I don't think
it's been released overseas, though.
I'm not sure what to say. Maybe I'll ask an easier question. Do you
want to watch loud movies or quiet movies? Established genres: Love
stories, adventure, sci-fi, horror...?
>> But hey, a physical reaction is what porn is all about, right? Of course
>No, you make them physically ill because they think you're a flaming
>asshole who tries to find rape in every aspect of Japanese culture, who
Or is it that when I find rape in Japanese culture, they decide that it's
everywhere? Heck, rape *is* a very popular subject (or at least a common
scene) in movies and porn in Japan, but when I choose to examine it people
are going to dig themselves into a hole if they take it to mean that
Japanese culture (or film culture) is *all* rape. Or is it because
they're aligning me with the "all anime is porn" media rhetoric that fans
on this group love to hate?
At any rate, if we continue to talk about it here let's remember that I
didn't bring it up this time, right?
>oppressed Asian women." So far, you don't seem to be disproving them.
Well, I'm not proving that I'm victimizing *them* through the fact that I
have taken the time to read some serious books on the subject either, but
somehow that's the feeling they get... right? I didn't study French, but
I don't get pissed off at people for talking about Godard as if they know
something about him. Geez, people always disappear from the discussion
when I post references for books they could use to learn about this stuff.
>Osaka about manga and anime (about my love of Katsura and U-Jin's work, he
>said that I had great taste)
Yes, we heard... <:-)
>"There are two lines of thinking about Eva in Japan. Some people feel
>it's the greatest anime since Gundam. Others feel it's a total ripoff of
>Gundam." It's a refrying of the classic giant robot formula, albeit
>an excellent one.
The resemblance to Gundam is obvious. It's deliberately obvious. Hell,
the show is, on one level, a serious critique of Gundam (and anime).
That's not sufficient ammo for a complaint if it's something the creators
aimed for ... and achieved in their show. People got pissed off because
they didn't want to think, especially about themselves. They wanted it
more idealized, more fantasy. They didn't want to be led back to the
attitudes Anno identifies with fandom in the first place. I know there
were two lines, though. You should have seen the comments on the Gainax
website BBS after the movies came out...
But why don't people complain that much about other shows that try to rip
off Gundam but *don't* admit it?
>In the Sakura Tsuushin manga, it does happen, and I think the woman got an
>abortion; I'm not sure, but it wasn't carried to term.
Holy cow. Well, it is the 21st century. Good for them.
Next we have to ask (rhetorically is fine) how did the manga discuss this
abortion?
Mike A
Wednesday
David Watson <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> (aku...@my-deja.com) writes:
>> If you would like untranslated or more original soft hentai, then try
>> checking out original shoujo (girls manga) - shoujo doesn't have the
>> overweening fanservice (ubiquitous panty shots or unnatural poses) so
>> prevalent in Japanese male fiction but it does sex. Also, women's
>> fiction/manga is extremely hardcore - there are scenes in there that
>> would make men blush (contrast that with the graphic nature of English
>> romances).
>Hmm? Want to name some manga examples? I'll check out anything once.
J-List carries a magazine called Girls' Revolution (in the Yaoi section,
usually) which might be of some use. So to speak.
>> If you are looking for the less disgusting hentai to impress a girl,
>> may I recommend you find the fansubs of romantic shoujo such as
>> Marmalade Boy or Hana Yori Dango? There isn't any graphic sex as such,
>> but the romance is so female oriented in those shows that I've yet to
>> meet a girl who hasn't turned into a pile of romantic goo from watching
>> it (as I recall, I began to say "I love you" to my cat somewhere after
>> the 24th episode and began attacking my fiance for sexual favors around
>> episode 31).
HI! I'M A WOMAN! AND I'M NOT GOOOOOOEEEEEEEEEY!
*gnerf*
-- weds, who gets off on f3, see, so probably isn't representative of stuff.
--
that was not a sermon, that was a tirade. [bill mallonee] :::::::::: weds
David Watson
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
>>M Arnold (n934...@cc.wwu.edu) writes:
>>Well, the only ones I saw last year (and that's because a friend of mine
>>offered to take me and paid for my ticket) were Blair Witch Project, Dogma
> BWP was a hoot... kinda... but everybody said it was such a "new"
> technique when it was just giving new attention to an old trick. [Focus]
> (1996), a Japanese movie, did it much more effectively. I don't think
> it's been released overseas, though.
I didn't think BWP was the first movie to do something like that, but it
definitely was radically different from every other film out there at the
time, so people seized on that.
> I'm not sure what to say. Maybe I'll ask an easier question. Do you
> want to watch loud movies or quiet movies? Established genres: Love
> stories, adventure, sci-fi, horror...?
Not too large on the majority of horror or sci-fi in live-action (I can
appreciate excetions that stand out from the pack), but can dig nearly
every other style. I lean towards louder movies (and music), but can
appreciate quiet as well. Tamago no Tenshi/Angel's Egg is a favourite
anime of mine (but, being so surreal, I don't know if you'd consider that
one "quiet").
>>> But hey, a physical reaction is what porn is all about, right? Of course
>>No, you make them physically ill because they think you're a flaming
>>asshole who tries to find rape in every aspect of Japanese culture, who
> Or is it that when I find rape in Japanese culture, they decide that it's
> everywhere? Heck, rape *is* a very popular subject (or at least a common
> scene) in movies and porn in Japan, but when I choose to examine it people
> are going to dig themselves into a hole if they take it to mean that
> Japanese culture (or film culture) is *all* rape. Or is it because
> they're aligning me with the "all anime is porn" media rhetoric that fans
> on this group love to hate?
>
> At any rate, if we continue to talk about it here let's remember that I
> didn't bring it up this time, right?
No problem there. The problem is that, when H anime is brought up, you
find rape of one degree or another in places where it isn't, including
more innocuous titles like EoS. There's no denying that Japan is a little
too patriarchal for its own good, but things aren't quite as bad there as
in, say, Islamic countries.
>>oppressed Asian women." So far, you don't seem to be disproving them.
> Well, I'm not proving that I'm victimizing *them* through the fact that I
> have taken the time to read some serious books on the subject either, but
> somehow that's the feeling they get... right? I didn't study French, but
> I don't get pissed off at people for talking about Godard as if they know
> something about him. Geez, people always disappear from the discussion
> when I post references for books they could use to learn about this stuff.
Could it be that maybe people feel that you're putting too much of the
books you read and not enough of *your own mind* into the spew you write
here? The aforementioned mailer certainly thinks so, and I doubt they're
alone. That's probably why people find your posts impenetrable; your head
is clogged with so much of other people's philosophy and criticism that no
one sees a living being with mobile thought when they read your posts;
they see a dense crank who has made the term "intellectual" an insult. I
told aforementioned mailer that I'm sure I've got enough people on RAAM
who feel the same way about me (no, I don't think I'm perfect), and they
told me, "at least you're consistent." That's why I don't catch as much
flak as you do in these threads; I think things through myself, using my
own sincere feelings and experiences, keep open to being proved wrong (and
frequently have been), and say what I have to say with as little muddle as
possible. *That* is what the person who said, "don't let school interfere
with your education" (Mark Twain?) had in mind when they said it.
The mailer adds, "Mike's only consistent when it comes to shoring up his
little obsession...He'll dismiss opposing evidence as 'anecdotal,' yet
will freely use his own anecdotal evidence. And, of course, when all else
fails he'll simply say, 'prove it' to those opposing him. Let the burden
of disproving it fall on _him_ if he's so sure about what he says."
To put it succinctly and bluntly: Cut the shit, Mike.
>> [Evangelion:]
> The resemblance to Gundam is obvious. It's deliberately obvious. Hell,
> the show is, on one level, a serious critique of Gundam (and anime).
> That's not sufficient ammo for a complaint if it's something the creators
> aimed for ... and achieved in their show. People got pissed off because
> they didn't want to think, especially about themselves. They wanted it
> more idealized, more fantasy. They didn't want to be led back to the
> attitudes Anno identifies with fandom in the first place. I know there
> were two lines, though. You should have seen the comments on the Gainax
> website BBS after the movies came out...
>
> But why don't people complain that much about other shows that try to rip
> off Gundam but *don't* admit it?
Why don't you admit that I just shot down your example of Evangelion being
wholly "new"? As much as I like serial experiments lain, I can't say that
that's totally original from the ground up, either; just that it's at
least unique. Face it: People can't escape cliche, no matter how hard
they try.
>>In the Sakura Tsuushin manga, it does happen, and I think the woman got an
>>abortion; I'm not sure, but it wasn't carried to term.
> Holy cow. Well, it is the 21st century. Good for them.
> Next we have to ask (rhetorically is fine) how did the manga discuss this
> abortion?
I don't know. Still can't read Japanese, and I wasn't even sure that it
was an abortion. It could have been a miscarriage; I didn't look that
deeply through the book, but did see that the fetus was out of the picture
before the end of the tankouban.
I wish those people who stumble all over themselves to fan-translate
manga would do U-Jin's work, especially since the one attempt to bring it
out over here (MangErotica approaching him first about publishing his work
in North America when they started out) didn't pan out. So, far, the only
H manga artist I've seen given that treatment has been Utatane Hiroyuke,
and MangErotica *did* publish some of his stuff.
vorko...@my-deja.com
aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) wrote:
> No problem there. The problem is that, when H anime is brought up,
you
> find rape of one degree or another in places where it isn't, including
> more innocuous titles like EoS. There's no denying that Japan is a
little
> too patriarchal for its own good, but things aren't quite as bad there
as
> in, say, Islamic countries.
Where rape is always the fault of the victim and her male relatives
have an obligation to kill her to restore the family honor and are
never ever punished for it.
This reminds me of that movie that was made about the public beheading
of a Saudi princess and her lover after they were caught out.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
MokkoriActionDan
>>>abortion; I'm not sure, but it wasn't carried to term.
>> Holy cow. Well, it is the 21st century. Good for them.
>> Next we have to ask (rhetorically is fine) how did the manga discuss this
>> abortion?
>
>I don't know. Still can't read Japanese, and I wasn't even sure that it
>was an abortion. It could have been a miscarriage; I didn't look that
>deeply through the book, but did see that the fetus was out of the picture
>before the end of the tankouban.
>
Actually, it was a miscarriage. If you recall, some guys assaulted Urara's
friend Koumi, and Urara was kicked pretty hard. I haven't fully finished
reading it, so I can't really comment on the "consequences."
Daniel
Team Abcb
University of Colorado Student
> In article <8d4rat$4sa$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) wrote:
> > No problem there. The problem is that, when H anime is brought up,
> you
> > find rape of one degree or another in places where it isn't, including
> > more innocuous titles like EoS. There's no denying that Japan is a
> little
> > too patriarchal for its own good, but things aren't quite as bad there
> as
> > in, say, Islamic countries.
>
> Where rape is always the fault of the victim and her male relatives
> have an obligation to kill her to restore the family honor and are
> never ever punished for it.
>
> This reminds me of that movie that was made about the public beheading
> of a Saudi princess and her lover after they were caught out.
This is not the place to be painting countries and religions that have
absolutely nothing to do with anime with negative stereotyping. Even with
an OT warning.
If you are an American, you should know that it wasn't that long ago
that "respectable gentlemen" did things like string up African Americans,
burn them, behead their corpses, and display the remains in a storefront
window if they had relations with a white woman.
People are stupid everywhere, don't blame their religion or nationality
for it.
-M.(stomach doing a slow twist)
M Arnold
>In article <8d18cq$mk9$1...@ra.cc.wwu.edu>, M Arnold <n934...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>Does it have the Bhagavad-Gita reading as well as the lack of digital
No idea about that. Tell me what (when) to look for and I might be able
to check.
Interesting comments. Think about how refreshing it would be to get
*away* from the panty shots and immature "girls" in pony-tails after being
surrounded by it day in and day out... <:-/
Mike A
M Arnold
>I didn't think BWP was the first movie to do something like that, but it
>definitely was radically different from every other film out there at the
>time, so people seized on that.
I read a number of articles about how "new" the movie was, and its
incredible "realism"... I thought it failed in both departments.
Interesting B-movie, maybe, but it doesn't really live up to its claims.
>appreciate quiet as well. Tamago no Tenshi/Angel's Egg is a favourite
>anime of mine (but, being so surreal, I don't know if you'd consider that
>one "quiet").
Oshii made some live action films too.
I'll think about it over the weekend and see if I can come up with some
recommendations.
>No problem there. The problem is that, when H anime is brought up, you
>find rape of one degree or another in places where it isn't, including
Maybe, but also in places where other people are trying *not* to see it,
and look away. At any rate, I didn't bring it up...
>Could it be that maybe people feel that you're putting too much of the
>books you read and not enough of *your own mind* into the spew you write
I don't think that matters, or even makes sense. Can you amputate your
"self" and your "mind" from the experiences you have? What would be left?
Baseless, subjective hogwash. "I like this because it's good, damn it!"
Why should I want to ignore select areas of things I've read, or movies
I've seen? Why is it necessarily (or necessarily not) my "own" idea, or
your own idea, when I pull a quote from a book I read, or a video I
rented? This complaint you're handing me is absurd... in fact I don't
think it's even about that. People just want another inexpensive excuse
to ignore live-action evidence and resources so they can go on pretending
that the world--Japan, a fantasy cartoon world--bends at their whim. To
me, these cartoons, including the dirty ones, are much too interesting to
be stupified to an elementary level and exempted from "adult" (I'm
sure you've heard about how "anime is not just for kids") commentary.
>they see a dense crank who has made the term "intellectual" an insult. I
No, that's what's being thrown at me. I don't claim to be an
intellectual, I claim to be someone who likes watching movies. I
don't know what makes you think the only "education" I received was in
a school.
>To put it succinctly and bluntly: Cut the shit, Mike.
Learn to cut your own shit, David. The world's not going to part like the
Red Sea for the sake of your hobbies.
>Why don't you admit that I just shot down your example of Evangelion being
>wholly "new"?
You shot something down? I didn't realize I was your target ducky.
Wholly new? I *said* that Eva copied Gundam! Don't you get it??
You keep saying you're "shooting" me down, and crap like that... Is
everything a showdown to you?
>I don't know. Still can't read Japanese, and I wasn't even sure that it
>was an abortion. It could have been a miscarriage; I didn't look that
Curious. The media is usually ridiculously conservative about abortion,
even though it's fully legal and many women undergo the operation.
Mike A
Alan Kwan
It's so obvious IMO: Douk 2 is about a guy laying one girl after
another and then walking away, so clearly it is merely men's porn.
On 12 Apr 2000 01:32:56 GMT, aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson)
wrote:
>M Arnold (n934...@cc.wwu.edu) writes:
>> arro...@rahul.net (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>>>In article <8cuib1$1kp$1...@ra.cc.wwu.edu>, M Arnold <n934...@cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>On the other hand, it could be that the anime is aimed at a teenage audience
>>>>>for whom "girls" *are* equals,
>>>>Do you honestly think that's true?
>>>I haven't seen it. But I do know that it's not about salarymen going after
>>>OLs. Both sexes in it are teenagers, and it's aimed at teenagers, which
>> Oh come on, do you seriously believe that there is an "equal" audience of
>> "teenagers" watching this, just because it's not an OL porn? For goodness
>> sake, get your head out of the sand.
>
>The original Douk LDs are rated for 15 and above, so it may well have been
>enjoyed by plenty of people (mostly guys, I'm sure) between 15-18 in
>Japan. For all I know, the copies I bought may well have been owned by
>somebody in that age bracket.
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / ta...@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
Dimension S editor: http://www.digiweb.com/~dimension-sega/
David Watson
> It's so obvious IMO: Douk 2 is about a guy laying one girl after
> another and then walking away, so clearly it is merely men's porn.
5th OVA, which I have, and Mike's description of the first, but Douk2
seems to be more farcical than Natsu no Owari ni/EoS, including the pace.
In the original, he *doesn't* walk away from the girls, see?
David Watson
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
>>I didn't think BWP was the first movie to do something like that, but it
>>definitely was radically different from every other film out there at the
>>time, so people seized on that.
> I read a number of articles about how "new" the movie was, and its
> incredible "realism"... I thought it failed in both departments.
> Interesting B-movie, maybe, but it doesn't really live up to its claims.
It did take quite a bit of time to pick up, and I can see how some people
might feel disappointed, but when you can feel tension build up over the
length of the movie, I think it did all right.
>>appreciate quiet as well. Tamago no Tenshi/Angel's Egg is a favourite
>>anime of mine (but, being so surreal, I don't know if you'd consider that
>>one "quiet").
> Oshii made some live action films too.
> I'll think about it over the weekend and see if I can come up with some
> recommendations.
This should be interesting.
>>No problem there. The problem is that, when H anime is brought up, you
>>find rape of one degree or another in places where it isn't, including
> Maybe, but also in places where other people are trying *not* to see it,
> and look away. At any rate, I didn't bring it up...
You most certainly did. And have every damned time you've stepped into
these threads and proceed to turn them into shit (and turn many people off).
>>Could it be that maybe people feel that you're putting too much of the
>>books you read and not enough of *your own mind* into the spew you write
> I don't think that matters, or even makes sense. Can you amputate your
> "self" and your "mind" from the experiences you have? What would be left?
> Baseless, subjective hogwash.
So base the crap you have to say ON your experiences, not on things you
read in books that others may well (and sometimes do, judging by past
threads) find "baseless, subjective hogwash." *That's* what I was talking
about. Make up your own mind. If I was to dig around, I could probably
find (and quote) plenty of books to affirm my own viewpoints, but I feel
strongly enough about them that I don't feel the need to.
> "I like this because it's good, damn it!"
> Why should I want to ignore select areas of things I've read, or movies
> I've seen? Why is it necessarily (or necessarily not) my "own" idea, or
> your own idea, when I pull a quote from a book I read, or a video I
> rented?
It's not good when it's the books and videos seem to do the thinking for
you, as they seem to have. Like religious fanatics who claim to have read
the bible 50 times and take pride in relinquishing the majority of their
independent thought.
> This complaint you're handing me is absurd... in fact I don't
> think it's even about that. People just want another inexpensive excuse
> to ignore live-action evidence and resources so they can go on pretending
> that the world--Japan, a fantasy cartoon world--bends at their whim. To
> me, these cartoons, including the dirty ones, are much too interesting to
> be stupified to an elementary level and exempted from "adult" (I'm
> sure you've heard about how "anime is not just for kids") commentary.
What the fuck do you mean, "pretend Japan bends to your will?" If I could
make Japan bend to my will, I'd have a job there teaching English instead
of mouldering away in Ottawa. I couldn't even pretend to make Ottawa bend
to my will (or else I'd have a job here), let alone Japan.
>>they see a dense crank who has made the term "intellectual" an insult. I
> No, that's what's being thrown at me. I don't claim to be an
> intellectual, I claim to be someone who likes watching movies. I
> don't know what makes you think the only "education" I received was in
> a school.
It seems to be all you're basing what you have to say here on. And in the
case of the statements you have made in the past claiming that rape in
titles like Urotsukidoji being every bit as bad as real-life rape (tell
that to the real people who it's happened to, knobhead), quite a few
people have been wondering about your grip on reality. Including myself.
>>To put it succinctly and bluntly: Cut the shit, Mike.
> Learn to cut your own shit, David. The world's not going to part like the
> Red Sea for the sake of your hobbies.
More Mike-flavoured blah blah, yaff yaff yaff. I'm not bullshitting
anybody. I can't find a good reason to. Most people would sooner stay
quiet about being fans of hentai to keep from being seen in a bad light,
but I didn't, and so far the only person who keeps painting me as a bad
person because of it has been you. Others may well have written me off,
but that's they're problem, not mine; to thine own's self, be true.
>>Why don't you admit that I just shot down your example of Evangelion being
>>wholly "new"?
> You shot something down? I didn't realize I was your target ducky.
> Wholly new? I *said* that Eva copied Gundam! Don't you get it??
You're the one who brought up Eva as an example of something new, not me.
> You keep saying you're "shooting" me down, and crap like that... Is
> everything a showdown to you?
This thread wasn't. It was helping out somebody who was seeking the polar
opposite of tentacle titles in the H field, and likely wouldn't have
lasted too long before they happily went off seeking EoS, First Loves and
Magical Twilight (with caveats for the first ep of that). And then you
stepped in yet again, spouting rhetoric, and turned it into swill and got
people pissed off again. Take the hint.
>>I don't know. Still can't read Japanese, and I wasn't even sure that it
>>was an abortion. It could have been a miscarriage; I didn't look that
> Curious. The media is usually ridiculously conservative about abortion,
> even though it's fully legal and many women undergo the operation.
And Mokkori Action Dan (great nick!) revealed that it was actually a
miscarriage, after the girl got kicked really hard trying to help out a
friend who was being assaulted. Another chapter I read of it (or at least
stitched together from the pictures) addressed abusive fathers and suicide
attempts. Gritty. More proof that there's more to U-Jin than cute girls.
Alex Taylor
> You may wanna check out Magical Twilight.....fits the description, IMO.
But only episodes 2 and 3. Skip episode 1, which has some unpleasant bits.
(Of course, it's one of the only hentai titles I've seen, so maybe I'm
sheltered...?)
> > Are there any hentai anime titles that:
> >
> > (1) do not have tentacles
> > (2) is romantic
> > (3) is not "angry" (I want heartwarming, plesant hentai, not
> > coersion/submission).
> > (4) is actually a good story with hentai in it instead of hentai with some
> > story grafted on.
> > (5) Leaves you with a warm fuzzy feeling. (No cracks about what this means
> > please.)
> >
> > I realize my request seems to contradict #4, but I'm
> > asking anyway. How is New Angel?
> >
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Taylor BA - CIS - University of Guelph
al...@eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca http://eddie.cis.uoguelph.ca/~alex
-----------------------------------------------------------------
M Arnold
Isn't there any way to discuss this topic without you turning it into a
discussion about me? I'm very ready to talk about the subject... any
subject, if you want to quit pestering me and instead try refuting my
"experience", criticizing the shows or suggesting more new videos.
You keep telling me to draw from "experience," but at the same time you want
me to ignore the experience of looking into facts, theory or written sources
on this subject. If I do that, David, it all goes out the window--the books,
websites, essays, laws, research, comics and other written resources,
conversations with people, places I've been, things I've seen on TV and in
the city, movies, cartoons, fan reviews... do you get to decide which of
those are my "experience" and which are not? Or do I just draw the line at
the video itself, accept only that as "experience," and 'criticize' it
without the words to describe what I see? Ironically enough, you're
lecturing on this idea while sitting there complaining about *my* meaningless
"rhetoric"... If I erase my "experience" in order to share only my
"experience," we won't be left with any way to talk about why a certain porn
fits the first poster's question or not.
> > and look away. At any rate, I didn't bring it up...
> You most certainly did. And have every damned time you've stepped into
> these threads and proceed to turn them into shit (and turn many people off).
Get some strong coffee and wake up Dave. I did not.
In article <8d4rat$4sa$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) wrote:
[begin quote]
>>> But hey, a physical reaction is what porn is all about, right? Of course
>>No, you make them physically ill because they think you're a flaming
>>asshole who tries to find rape in every aspect of Japanese culture, who
> Or is it that when I find rape in Japanese culture, they decide that it's
> everywhere? Heck, rape *is* a very popular subject (or at least a common
> scene) in movies and porn in Japan, but when I choose to examine it people
> are going to dig themselves into a hole if they take it to mean that
> Japanese culture (or film culture) is *all* rape. Or is it because
> they're aligning me with the "all anime is porn" media rhetoric that fans
> on this group love to hate?
>
> At any rate, if we continue to talk about it here let's remember that I
> didn't bring it up this time, right?
No problem there. The problem is that, when H anime is brought up, you find
rape of one degree or another in places where it isn't, including more
innocuous titles like EoS. There's no denying that Japan is a little too
patriarchal for its own good, but things aren't quite as bad there as in,
say, Islamic countries.
[end quote]
You brought it up...:
"
>>No, you make them physically ill because they think you're a flaming
>>asshole who tries to find rape in every aspect of Japanese culture, who
"
...and "no problem" in, at least temporarily, admitting that:
"
> At any rate, if we continue to talk about it here let's remember that I
> didn't bring it up this time, right?
No problem there.
"
Next you're probably going to tell me that I made your comment about Islamic
culture too.
> So base the crap you have to say ON your experiences, not on things you
That's what I've been doing. I think I understand what you're trying to say,
though. Listen:
Quit drawing examples from these porn videos you like so much and start
basing your crap on your own personal EXPERIENCES instead! OK? Make sense?
I sure hope not.
> about. Make up your own mind. If I was to dig around, I could probably
> find (and quote) plenty of books to affirm my own viewpoints, but I feel
> strongly enough about them that I don't feel the need to.
Strong feelings alone aren't going to enable you to explain "good porn" to us.
Go out and find some of those books, I'll be more than happy to hear your
ideas on them. You could start with Linda Williams... ah, but then again her
pro-porn argument is probably too full of "feminist" rhetoric for you, and
she doesn't write about Japanese porn or cartoons so you might think reading
her is not a real "experience." I'm sure you'd find lots of another kind of
support in Weekly Jump, Young Magazine or Weekly Gendai.
> It's not good when it's the books and videos seem to do the thinking for
> you, as they seem to have.
What a clever idea--if you read you become possessed by the book. Sounds
like something censorship advocates would use to argue against "The Matrix"
or "Eyes Wide Shut." By your argument here I would be justified in saying
that your videos are doing the thinking for you too. (I've read the Bible,
by the way. Does that make me religious?)
I'm fully capable of looking at something, for example a book or a video (a
video! like End of Summer!), and making up my own mind about it.
> stepped in yet again, spouting rhetoric, and turned it into swill and got
> people pissed off again. Take the hint.
I stepped in, dodging *your* rhetoric about me, and offered 2 examples of
what I think are excellent depictions of sexual relations in anime. Now I'm
confronted with you and your invisible army of discontents who just don't
want to hear that I think anime is, like anything else, a product and part of
a real society.
I'm no expert on porno movies; we can just leave that out in the open in
anticipation of the folks who want to rally against "elitism" in a "fan"
discussion. I'm just trying to share what I can. Do you have *any* sort of
"experience" whatsoever that helps you explain what makes one Japanese porn
better than something else?
Just keep it up like this and we'll continue to move nowhere.
This weekend I bought Maruo Suehiro's "National Kid." It's a comic that
would be very hard to digest for folks who deal a simplistic "no" to tentacle
violence and "yes" to passive high schoolers.
A pink movie called "OL's Love Juice" made the yearly film top 10 list
sponsored by a Japanese quarterly film journal I picked up. I went looking
for that too, but apparently it's not on video yet... (Watching it probably
wouldn't count as "experience" in your view anyway.)
You want some movie suggestions? Start with Oshima. "Tomb of the Sun," "In
the Realm of the Senses," "Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence," "Violence at Noon,"
"Cruel Story of Youth," "Max, Mon Amour," and "In the Realm of Passion"
should be all on video in North America. If you've got the guts to see some
live action without subs, "Ceremonies," "Night and Fog in Japan," "Three
Resurrected Drunkards," "A Treatise on Japanese Bawdy Songs," "Japanese
Summer: Forced Double Suicide," "Diary of a Shinjuku Thief," "Death By
Hanging," his 'manga' "Band of Ninja" or... anything else with his name on it
should open your eyes to a new "experience" that doesn't (to you) or does (to
me) address issues relevant to a discussion on Japanese cartoon pornography.
Mike A
Antaeus Feldspar
> M Arnold (n934...@cc.wwu.edu) writes:
> > aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
> >
> >>catch so much shit. Remember PsychoKick's words from the last time around
> >>on this matter? If you've got something to say, don't cloud it.
> >
> > Yeah, I remember how excited you got about something that, again, missed
> > the point.
> >
> > There aren't any clouds over here; it's clear and sunny.
> >
> > Should I hire someone to write footnotes for you?
>
> Yes, for me and everybody else who eventually will conclude that you
> aren't worth the hassle. The person you hire might be more coherent than
> you are. It's not so much the level of the words you write as the
> (dis)order you write them in and the words you leave out. Say what you
> mean, mean what you say.
But see, he doesn't *want* to say things clearly, because if he
says them clearly, the fact that they're bullsh*t will also be quite
clear.
-jc
--
* -jc IS *NOW* feld...@cryogen.com
* Home page: http://members.tripod.com/~afeldspar/index.html
* The home of >>Failed Pilots Playhouse<<
* "Better you hold me close than understand..." Thomas Dolby
David Watson
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) wrote:
>> M Arnold (n934...@cc.wwu.edu) writes:
> Isn't there any way to discuss this topic without you turning it into a
> discussion about me? I'm very ready to talk about the subject... any
> subject, if you want to quit pestering me and instead try refuting my
> "experience", criticizing the shows or suggesting more new videos.
If I had the money to see more new videos, I would, although I think it's
safe for me to not recommend the videos released here under the titles
Erotic Torture Chamber and Professor Pain without having watched them.
The titles and box art speak for themselves.
"Quit pestering you?" Why don't you try quitting bothering the rest of us
if you hate it that much? I've participated in enough threads where I've
made provocative statements that get a response or two, but they still
wind down naturally for one reason or another. You, on the other hand,
wind things up to breaking point, and then past it.
> You keep telling me to draw from "experience," but at the same time you want
> me to ignore the experience of looking into facts, theory or written sources
> on this subject. If I do that, David, it all goes out the window--the books,
> websites, essays, laws, research, comics and other written resources,
> conversations with people, places I've been, things I've seen on TV and in
> the city, movies, cartoons, fan reviews... do you get to decide which of
> those are my "experience" and which are not?
How about your own first-hand experience and interactions with real
people, including those "coversations with people" and "places [you've]
been", and communications including the internet? That will teach you
more about life than any book.
> Or do I just draw the line at
> the video itself, accept only that as "experience," and 'criticize' it
> without the words to describe what I see? Ironically enough, you're
> lecturing on this idea while sitting there complaining about *my* meaningless
> "rhetoric"... If I erase my "experience" in order to share only my
> "experience," we won't be left with any way to talk about why a certain porn
> fits the first poster's question or not.
You also wind up having to stand on your own convictions instead of towing
some author's line, consciously or not.
Excuse the long quote, but:
I meant your analysis of rape, not rape itself. You did that in your own
inimitable way in the very first post you made in this thread:
"One problem is this: taking away the image of the tentacle or monster
doesn't necessarily take away the attitudes in the story drawn into the
monster. These "tentacles" become a scapegoat for the attitudes people
don't want to literally *see* and don't want to admit are woven into the
vast majority of these narratives. "No tentacles? Oh then it must be
nice." That's just too simple."
On the other hand, that is your analysis of rape, isn't it? You certainly
love breaking it down to that. I do not stand corrected.
>> So base the crap you have to say ON your experiences, not on things you
> That's what I've been doing. I think I understand what you're trying to say,
> though. Listen:
>
> Quit drawing examples from these porn videos you like so much and start
> basing your crap on your own personal EXPERIENCES instead! OK? Make sense?
> I sure hope not.
I've drawn knowledge primarily from my personal experiences and from what
I've heard from people around me ages long before I got into anime of any
kind. Books can teach you how to express yourself and give you some
examples to work from, but there's nothing like living real life and
talking with other people who live real lives to actually learn about real
life.
>> about. Make up your own mind. If I was to dig around, I could probably
>> find (and quote) plenty of books to affirm my own viewpoints, but I feel
>> strongly enough about them that I don't feel the need to.
> Strong feelings alone aren't going to enable you to explain "good porn" to us.
Living and learning certainly do.
> Go out and find some of those books, I'll be more than happy to hear your
> ideas on them. You could start with Linda Williams... ah, but then again her
> pro-porn argument is probably too full of "feminist" rhetoric for you, and
> she doesn't write about Japanese porn or cartoons so you might think reading
> her is not a real "experience." I'm sure you'd find lots of another kind of
> support in Weekly Jump, Young Magazine or Weekly Gendai.
They don't have to apply to Japanese porn or cartoons. You haven't quoted
any resources that are specifically about that yourself.
>> It's not good when it's the books and videos seem to do the thinking for
>> you, as they seem to have.
> What a clever idea--if you read you become possessed by the book. Sounds
> like something censorship advocates would use to argue against "The Matrix"
> or "Eyes Wide Shut." By your argument here I would be justified in saying
> that your videos are doing the thinking for you too. (I've read the Bible,
> by the way. Does that make me religious?)
No, it seems that you are reading too much and are being possessed by
referring back to them instead of learning from them. And does reading
the Bible make you religious? No, but you seem to have a religious
fervour about finding nothing but bad things in any H title. Most people
who turn to religion are trying to cover up their own inadequacies. Draw
your own conclusions. Others have. And it hasn't been very flattering to
you.
> I'm fully capable of looking at something, for example a book or a video (a
> video! like End of Summer!), and making up my own mind about it.
So am I, and I demonstrate that here, but you belittle that ability at every
turn just because you've read this and that.
>> stepped in yet again, spouting rhetoric, and turned it into swill and got
>> people pissed off again. Take the hint.
> I stepped in, dodging *your* rhetoric about me, and offered 2 examples of
> what I think are excellent depictions of sexual relations in anime. Now I'm
> confronted with you and your invisible army of discontents who just don't
> want to hear that I think anime is, like anything else, a product and part of
> a real society.
A: They're hardly invisible. Plenty of people have stepped forward in
this newsgroup--and this very thread--and let you know just how full of
shit they think you are.
B: You offered two examples in non-hentai titles, Kareshi Kanojo no Jijyo
(another title I enjoy) and Evangelion. Fine. But that's not what this
thread was about in the first place. If you just want to say that you
don't think any H any is good, then just say that and leave it at that.
But no, you have to play the intellectual bully again to try and keep from
being seen as merely a snob, and end up looking even worse.
> I'm no expert on porno movies; we can just leave that out in the open in
> anticipation of the folks who want to rally against "elitism" in a "fan"
> discussion. I'm just trying to share what I can. Do you have *any* sort of
> "experience" whatsoever that helps you explain what makes one Japanese porn
> better than something else?
Yes. 32 years of life with my eyes and ears open. You might say that
that constitutes "prejudices" more than "experience," but bookheads have
prejudices, too, just like everybody else, as you have repeatedly shown.
> Just keep it up like this and we'll continue to move nowhere.
>
> This weekend I bought Maruo Suehiro's "National Kid." It's a comic that
> would be very hard to digest for folks who deal a simplistic "no" to tentacle
> violence and "yes" to passive high schoolers.
I've read the English-translated version of Camellia Girl that was
released here (as Mr. Arashi's Amazing Freak Show), and read the chapter
on him in Dreamland Japan. Heavy stuff that I definitely want to see more
of. I can see why John Zorn likes his work (enough to print some colour
pictures of his in the _Naked City_ CD booklet).
> A pink movie called "OL's Love Juice" made the yearly film top 10 list
> sponsored by a Japanese quarterly film journal I picked up. I went looking
> for that too, but apparently it's not on video yet... (Watching it probably
> wouldn't count as "experience" in your view anyway.)
Unless it's a documentary (and those can get heavily biased as well), it
may be an experience, but one that may not leave any new knowledge or
wisdom. Not that there's anything wrong with enjoying those now and
again; I'm an anime fan who likes a fair share of fluff, but knows there's
more to life than that. Like music dB).
> You want some movie suggestions? Start with Oshima. "Tomb of the Sun," "In
> the Realm of the Senses," "Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence," "Violence at Noon,"
> "Cruel Story of Youth," "Max, Mon Amour," and "In the Realm of Passion"
> should be all on video in North America.
Thanks for the tips.
> If you've got the guts to see some
> live action without subs, "Ceremonies," "Night and Fog in Japan," "Three
> Resurrected Drunkards," "A Treatise on Japanese Bawdy Songs," "Japanese
> Summer: Forced Double Suicide," "Diary of a Shinjuku Thief," "Death By
> Hanging," his 'manga' "Band of Ninja" or... anything else with his name on it
> should open your eyes to a new "experience" that doesn't (to you) or does (to
> me) address issues relevant to a discussion on Japanese cartoon pornography.
And thanks for the tips about those, but if I can't understand what's being
said, it won't leave me with much. I can't speak/read Japanese, remember?
Antaeus Feldspar
Oh, I dunno. You might be representative of a whole big
population who are hesitant to speak up, because every time they do,
they're accused of not being representative.
M Arnold
> How about your own first-hand experience and interactions with real
> people, including those "coversations with people" and "places [you've]
> been", and communications including the internet?
Why do you want to believe that I'm ignoring those experiences?
> That will teach you more about life than any book.
You're probably right. Real life will also teach you more than a porn video.
Experience living in Japan will teach more about Japan than a porn video.
Doing some outside research could teach you more about Japan than a porn
video, as well as a lot about porn itself.
> You also wind up having to stand on your own convictions instead of towing
> some author's line, consciously or not.
When the validity of points are questioned, or if I'm challenged to produce
evidence to back up my statements, I quote. And then when I quote I'm blamed
for being only a megaphone for the authors' ideas... You avoid that last
hurdle by not providing any references, right?
> I meant your analysis of rape, not rape itself. You did that in your own
> inimitable way in the very first post you made in this thread:
>
> "One problem is this: taking away the image of the tentacle or monster
> doesn't necessarily take away the attitudes in the story drawn into the
> monster. These "tentacles" become a scapegoat for the attitudes people
> don't want to literally *see* and don't want to admit are woven into the
> vast majority of these narratives. "No tentacles? Oh then it must be
> nice." That's just too simple."
>
> On the other hand, that is your analysis of rape, isn't it?
Do you think it is? If so, why didn't you bring that up sooner to "prove" I
was lecturing on "rape"? And at first, why did you have "no problem"
agreeing that I didn't bring the subject up in this thread?
Anyway, is the above quote an analysis of that? Did I write the word "rape"
in there?
What's your interpretation of the "monsterous" figures in Urotsukidoji, and
in Maruo's work? Does it have anything to do with "rape"?
> I do not stand corrected.
Indeed, you most defiantly do not. Goody for you. I hope this open-minded
attitude of yours takes you far in life.
> examples to work from, but there's nothing like living real life and
> talking with other people who live real lives to actually learn about real
> life.
I still want to know why you throw this "real experience" point around as if
"real" experience necessarily disagrees with ideas written in books. I don't
see where you can make a concrete point out of all that--you've got too much
contradiction, too many skipped considerations, too many arbitrary ideas. Or
in the interests of finding a relevant subject, can you straighten that point
up and carry it along to commit *yourself* to a stance... perhaps, for one
suggestion, on "experience" in the context of media and consumption in Japan,
porn anime, porn manga, porn television, porn video games? Japanese youth
spend a great deal of time indoors watching TV and playing video games. What
about the psychology of human relations, considering the growing use of
'simulated' relationships in new video/digital media?
If the only thing that counts is "real experience" in the "real world," what
does that mean for the cartoons you or I like? They're invisible? They have
no meaning, no value? Why don't you just tell the original poster that he
should stop looking at tapes and get a date instead?
> They don't have to apply to Japanese porn or cartoons. You haven't quoted
> any resources that are specifically about that yourself.
First of all, what authors' names have I quoted in this thread about "good
hentai" (aside from perhaps Williams, who I thought might help support some
of your views)? Could you list them? I don't remember who I did or didn't
quote; some of them may have been specifically related.
Secondly, I have quoted specifically related resources in other threads on
the subject of porn in this group.
>So am I, and I demonstrate that here, but you belittle that ability at every
>turn just because you've read this and that.
It's called disagreeing, not belittling.
>B: You offered two examples in non-hentai titles, Kareshi Kanojo no Jijyo
>(another title I enjoy) and Evangelion. Fine. But that's not what this
>thread was about in the first place. If you just want to say that you
It is what this thread is about. As I've said, I don't think there is
material available in the porn anime section that would give him what he
wants. There are limitations in a conservative industry and in the audience,
and porn often stereotypes itself into a corner; other work has the freedom
not to do that. Sex is not limited to the "hentai" section. It's not
limited to cartoons or videos either.
> Yes. 32 years of life with my eyes and ears open.
Doing what? What experience in those 32 years has helped you develop good
critical abilities regarding Japan and Japanese cartoon porn?
> > A pink movie called "OL's Love Juice" made the yearly film top 10 list
> Unless it's a documentary (and those can get heavily biased as well), it
> may be an experience, but one that may not leave any new knowledge or
> wisdom.
No new wisdom? Of course it will leave new wisdom. It's a Japanese porn
film; it's very relevant if we're sitting here discussing Japanese porn.
> And thanks for the tips about those, but if I can't understand what's being
> said, it won't leave me with much. I can't speak/read Japanese, remember?
Oh, so you must not watch Japanese cartoons either? Huh?
As a side note, last night I flipped on the TV around 10:15 and caught a
bedroom scene on some Channel 4 TV drama with a woman on a bed stripping
before a guy she wanted to have sex with... he brushed her off. She was
totally nude and entirely visible except for her front lower half. I guess
full female nudity on Japanese TV really is not limited to mid-night men's
sex programs.
David Watson
>> people, including those "coversations with people" and "places [you've]
>> been", and communications including the internet?
> Why do you want to believe that I'm ignoring those experiences?
Because you don't seem to refer to them anywhere when you go off on a tear
like this.
>> That will teach you more about life than any book.
> You're probably right. Real life will also teach you more than a porn video.
> Experience living in Japan will teach more about Japan than a porn video.
> Doing some outside research could teach you more about Japan than a porn
> video, as well as a lot about porn itself.
Real life will teach you that porn videos can be entertaining, but also
that porn videos are not real life, and they are rarely, if ever,
educational. I've been to Japan. Didn't expect it to be like any anime,
let alone an adult one. I wasn't disappointed. In fact, I had a blast,
and learned quite a bit.
>> You also wind up having to stand on your own convictions instead of towing
>> some author's line, consciously or not.
> When the validity of points are questioned, or if I'm challenged to produce
> evidence to back up my statements, I quote. And then when I quote I'm blamed
> for being only a megaphone for the authors' ideas... You avoid that last
> hurdle by not providing any references, right?
Quote statistics (if you can find unslanted ones), not authors. Quote the
news, not a book.
>> I meant your analysis of rape, not rape itself. You did that in your own
>> inimitable way in the very first post you made in this thread:
>>
>> "One problem is this: taking away the image of the tentacle or monster
>> doesn't necessarily take away the attitudes in the story drawn into the
>> monster. These "tentacles" become a scapegoat for the attitudes people
>> don't want to literally *see* and don't want to admit are woven into the
>> vast majority of these narratives. "No tentacles? Oh then it must be
>> nice." That's just too simple."
>>
>> On the other hand, that is your analysis of rape, isn't it?
> Do you think it is? If so, why didn't you bring that up sooner to "prove" I
> was lecturing on "rape"? And at first, why did you have "no problem"
> agreeing that I didn't bring the subject up in this thread?
Because I was talking about bringing up how you discuss rape, not rape
itself. Then a quick trip into Deja.com proved me wrong.
> Anyway, is the above quote an analysis of that? Did I write the word "rape"
> in there?
Not the exact word, but you may as well just have done it; that's how you
write, and that's why people hate you.
> What's your interpretation of the "monsterous" figures in Urotsukidoji, and
> in Maruo's work? Does it have anything to do with "rape"?
Both address abuse of power. Sometimes rape is used as a symptom of this
in these, and sometimes as a direct consequence, but always as a point to
shock and titillate people and sell books/videos. Sometimes it isn't.
>> I do not stand corrected.
> Indeed, you most defiantly do not. Goody for you. I hope this open-minded
> attitude of yours takes you far in life.
If you keep your mind too open, you leave it free for people to shovel
garbage into it.
> I still want to know why you throw this "real experience" point around as if
> "real" experience necessarily disagrees with ideas written in books.
Authors aren't trying to sell you real life; they're trying to sell you books.
> I don't
> see where you can make a concrete point out of all that--you've got too much
> contradiction, too many skipped considerations, too many arbitrary ideas. Or
> in the interests of finding a relevant subject, can you straighten that point
> up and carry it along to commit *yourself* to a stance...
My stance is "Have fun, but don't totally close your eyes to what's
happening out there. It may end up involving you and you don't want to be
unprepared."
> perhaps, for one
> suggestion, on "experience" in the context of media and consumption in Japan,
> porn anime, porn manga, porn television, porn video games? Japanese youth
> spend a great deal of time indoors watching TV and playing video games.
I couldn't even pretend to, since I'm not a youth anymore, I'm
definitely not Japanese, and visiting Osaka for a month doesn't really
constitute having "lived" there (although I was slumming it more than your
average tourist does, so I came close). Never fronted otherwise. All
advice and opinions about H titles from me come from the point of view of
a Canadian white man. Your milage may vary.
> What about the psychology of human relations, considering the growing use of
> 'simulated' relationships in new video/digital media?
If people didn't suck as much as they do (not in the literal sense!), such
things wouldn't be so popular.
> If the only thing that counts is "real experience" in the "real world," what
> does that mean for the cartoons you or I like? They're invisible? They
> have no meaning, no value?
Next to no educational value. Entertainment value, that's subjective.
You get none from EoS, I get a lot from it.
> Why don't you just tell the original poster that he should stop looking
> at tapes and get a date instead?
Because he asked about tapes, not dates.
>> They don't have to apply to Japanese porn or cartoons. You haven't quoted
>> any resources that are specifically about that yourself.
> First of all, what authors' names have I quoted in this thread about "good
> hentai" (aside from perhaps Williams, who I thought might help support some
> of your views)?
I might check some of her books out in the future. Signed out Crash (and
The Atrocity Exhibition) last night, BTW.
> Could you list them? I don't remember who I did or didn't
> quote; some of them may have been specifically related.
Not tonight, I've got a headache.
> Secondly, I have quoted specifically related resources in other threads on
> the subject of porn in this group.
Sometime when I've really got nothing else to do, I'll check Deja News.
>>So am I, and I demonstrate that here, but you belittle that ability at every
>>turn just because you've read this and that.
> It's called disagreeing, not belittling.
Same difference.
>>B: You offered two examples in non-hentai titles, Kareshi Kanojo no Jijyo
>>(another title I enjoy) and Evangelion. Fine. But that's not what this
>>thread was about in the first place. If you just want to say that you
> It is what this thread is about. As I've said, I don't think there is
> material available in the porn anime section that would give him what he
> wants. There are limitations in a conservative industry and in the audience,
> and porn often stereotypes itself into a corner; other work has the freedom
> not to do that. Sex is not limited to the "hentai" section. It's not
> limited to cartoons or videos either.
I know that, plank, but don't you remember that I said that EoS was the
closest I've found to meeting his criteria in the H field? I didn't say
it matched them 100%, or even that they were "just like real life" or some
such thing.
>> Yes. 32 years of life with my eyes and ears open.
> Doing what? What experience in those 32 years has helped you develop good
> critical abilities regarding Japan and Japanese cartoon porn?
Being in contact with people from Japan even before I visited there.
Actually visiting. Seeing good and bad live action and animated adult
titles (although I still have yet to really see any Japanese LA). Seeing
good and bad titles that weren't adult. Giving different things a chance
before deciding I did or didn't like them. Being told by a couple of
female friends just how horrendous rape really is. Being told by many
more people, male and female, just how good consentual sex is.
>> > A pink movie called "OL's Love Juice" made the yearly film top 10 list
>> Unless it's a documentary (and those can get heavily biased as well), it
>> may be an experience, but one that may not leave any new knowledge or
>> wisdom.
> No new wisdom? Of course it will leave new wisdom. It's a Japanese porn
> film; it's very relevant if we're sitting here discussing Japanese porn.
If it isn't anime, then it's not as relevent to the discussion as you
think. This is rec.arts.ANIME.misc. If the original poster wanted live
action, they would have asked for it.
>> And thanks for the tips about those, but if I can't understand what's being
>> said, it won't leave me with much. I can't speak/read Japanese, remember?
> Oh, so you must not watch Japanese cartoons either? Huh?
Subtitles, dubs (as few as possible), and fan translations, Jack. I
bought the EoS LDs mainly so I could work on anime music videos using them
and at least see the dramatic scenes that aren't in the first Soft Cel tape.
M Arnold
>Real life will teach you that porn videos can be entertaining
Now that depends on what kind of "real life" you have. These cartoons
entertain me too, but not in the sense that they help me visualize or
enjoy at face value the kind of "sex" they try to sell. Porn videos (and
maybe TV, movies, magazines...) will teach you how porn videos can be
"really" entertaining... real life might teach you something else.
>Quote statistics (if you can find unslanted ones), not authors. Quote the
>news, not a book.
I've quoted statistics, often even from some books I've been reading. In
fact here's one interesting site that might help:
http://jin.jcic.or.jp/stat/index.html
I read the news every day, and I think you would have noticed by now that
I quote a lot of that too. If you want I can mention a few articles from
the past months about pornography in Japan.
>write, and that's why people hate you.
Ohh, ouchey.
>If you keep your mind too open, you leave it free for people to shovel
>garbage into it.
Garbage like those smarty-farty books, huh.
>Authors aren't trying to sell you real life; they're trying to sell you books.
What are Japanese cartoon pornists trying to sell? And to whom?
One thing I could quote is an ero manga author on TV a few months ago who,
after making a more or less similar "entertainment only" point, claimed
that he intends his sex comics to supplement (replace?) formal sex ed for
kids, because the latter is really lacking in education. I recorded it
and can come back with the show title, artist's name, channel and probably
date if you want.
>> If the only thing that counts is "real experience" in the "real world," what
>> does that mean for the cartoons you or I like? They're invisible? They
>> have no meaning, no value?
>Next to no educational value. Entertainment value, that's subjective.
No educational value... so you're saying that they're a non-experience,
like books.
Did you ever watch a video or a film strip in elementary school? Did you
ever learn something from a book?
>> Could you list them? I don't remember who I did or didn't
>> quote; some of them may have been specifically related.
>Not tonight, I've got a headache.
Well I don't, and I'll be here to remind you, so whenever you're ready I'm
anxious to be reintroduced to all the authors I quoted in this discussion.
>> Secondly, I have quoted specifically related resources in other threads on
>> the subject of porn in this group.
>Sometime when I've really got nothing else to do, I'll check Deja News.
A-ha, so you've got a headache *and* you're above the pathetic act of
wasting your time researching stupid messages on Usenet. Maybe I'll try
that excuse next time.
>Being in contact with people from Japan even before I visited there.
Good. Well, I've got all those experiences as well (plus seeing lots of
Japanese film), except I didn't leave the country after a month.
I think it would be more worthwhile to take ideas from a wide field of
relevant sources instead of judging the validity of each others' arguments
based only on the book-absent "real experience" of how many months we
spent here or there. Don't you?
>If it isn't anime, then it's not as relevent to the discussion as you
>think. This is rec.arts.ANIME.misc. If the original poster wanted live
>action, they would have asked for it.
I didn't recommend live action to the person asking, I recommended ANIME.
Isn't this the same thread where you asked me for recommendations on live
action film? One thing I've learned (whether it was from a "book" or from
my "real experience," I won't tell) is that cartoons are not different or
absent from Japanese film, TV and media culture just because they're drawn
with pens and paint and a different type of camera. We should look at
other media representations *because* this is about anime.
Why don't you put a cap on your complaint by listing the authors I quoted
in this thread, and then we can bring this to a close.
Or if we're going to keep the homoerotic thing going on, where's Tom
Cruise?
Speaking of which, a friend of mine said he saw something interesting on
Japanese TV late the other night--a gay talk show of some kind. I'm
looking into it...
Mike A
David Watson
> aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
>>M Arnold (n934...@cc.wwu.edu) writes:
>>Real life will teach you that porn videos can be entertaining
> Now that depends on what kind of "real life" you have. These cartoons
> entertain me too, but not in the sense that they help me visualize or
> enjoy at face value the kind of "sex" they try to sell. Porn videos (and
> maybe TV, movies, magazines...) will teach you how porn videos can be
> "really" entertaining... real life might teach you something else.
I've heard enough stories about the shittier side of live-action porn
making. Which is probably why I watch so bloody few of them. H anime, on
the other hand, unless there was some shit going on behind the scenes
there that no one else knows about, treats its actors with some degree of
respect. And no one has to catch it on the face. Unless they like that
sort of thing and arrange for it to happen privately.
>>Quote statistics (if you can find unslanted ones), not authors. Quote the
>>news, not a book.
> I've quoted statistics, often even from some books I've been reading. In
> fact here's one interesting site that might help:
> http://jin.jcic.or.jp/stat/index.html
Will check it out sometime.
> I read the news every day, and I think you would have noticed by now that
> I quote a lot of that too. If you want I can mention a few articles from
> the past months about pornography in Japan.
So leave it at that.
>>write, and that's why people hate you.
> Ohh, ouchey.
Face it.
>>If you keep your mind too open, you leave it free for people to shovel
>>garbage into it.
> Garbage like those smarty-farty books, huh.
Garbage like the propaganda in a lot of those books.
>>Authors aren't trying to sell you real life; they're trying to sell you books.
> What are Japanese cartoon pornists trying to sell? And to whom?
Entertainment to those who want to be entertained by that sort of thing.
> One thing I could quote is an ero manga author on TV a few months ago who,
> after making a more or less similar "entertainment only" point, claimed
> that he intends his sex comics to supplement (replace?) formal sex ed for
> kids, because the latter is really lacking in education. I recorded it
> and can come back with the show title, artist's name, channel and probably
> date if you want.
Sounds interesting.
>>> If the only thing that counts is "real experience" in the "real world," what
>>> does that mean for the cartoons you or I like? They're invisible? They
>>> have no meaning, no value?
>>Next to no educational value. Entertainment value, that's subjective.
> No educational value... so you're saying that they're a non-experience,
> like books.
No, they're an entertainment experience, if you like that sort of thing.
Books are a substitute for experience, just like anything else that isn't
right in front of you and breathing.
> Did you ever watch a video or a film strip in elementary school?
Except for the MST3K people, how many people consider those entertaining?
> Did you ever learn something from a book?
Of course I've learned from books. Including the fact that others books
can and do lie and distort facts.
>>> Could you list them? I don't remember who I did or didn't
>>> quote; some of them may have been specifically related.
>>Not tonight, I've got a headache.
> Well I don't, and I'll be here to remind you, so whenever you're ready I'm
> anxious to be reintroduced to all the authors I quoted in this discussion.
Get the bozack. Why don't you, if it's so important to you?
>>> Secondly, I have quoted specifically related resources in other threads on
>>> the subject of porn in this group.
>>Sometime when I've really got nothing else to do, I'll check Deja News.
> A-ha, so you've got a headache *and* you're above the pathetic act of
> wasting your time researching stupid messages on Usenet. Maybe I'll try
> that excuse next time.
Or you could try not bothering to open your cryptosmartass piehole in the
first place. Really, when all is said and done, you are living proof that
you can have a good education, keep on top of the news, claim to follow a
wide variety of subjects and still be a massive drag.
>>Being in contact with people from Japan even before I visited there.
> Good. Well, I've got all those experiences as well (plus seeing lots of
> Japanese film), except I didn't leave the country after a month.
I didn't want to leave, but that's how it goes.
> I think it would be more worthwhile to take ideas from a wide field of
> relevant sources instead of judging the validity of each others' arguments
> based only on the book-absent "real experience" of how many months we
> spent here or there. Don't you?
I think it would be worthwhile if you took a one-year or so leave of
absence from this newsgroup. At the least, a lot of people here would be
happier, including myself.
>>If it isn't anime, then it's not as relevent to the discussion as you
>>think. This is rec.arts.ANIME.misc. If the original poster wanted live
>>action, they would have asked for it.
> I didn't recommend live action to the person asking, I recommended ANIME.
Yeah. Non-H anime. That's not what he was asking about.
> Isn't this the same thread where you asked me for recommendations on live
> action film?
No. I ask for nothing from you (except for the long leave of absence from
RAAM). You offered them, and I just went "what the hell."
> One thing I've learned (whether it was from a "book" or from
> my "real experience," I won't tell) is that cartoons are not different or
> absent from Japanese film, TV and media culture just because they're drawn
> with pens and paint and a different type of camera. We should look at
> other media representations *because* this is about anime.
Then bung a big [OT] in the subject line before you post so we'll know.
> Why don't you put a cap on your complaint by listing the authors I quoted
> in this thread, and then we can bring this to a close.
Because I can't, and attempting to gather the materials to do so would
likely turn me into someone like you at some point. That scares me.
> Or if we're going to keep the homoerotic thing going on, where's Tom
> Cruise?
You can have him. Where's Nicole Kidman?
> Speaking of which, a friend of mine said he saw something interesting on
> Japanese TV late the other night--a gay talk show of some kind. I'm
> looking into it...
Yeah, yeah...It's 3:43 AM. I'm tired. I will now drop the name that ends
horrendously devolved threads like this--"Hitler"--and go to sleep.
M Arnold
aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (David Watson) writes:
>M Arnold (n934...@cc.wwu.edu) writes:
>I've heard enough stories about the shittier side of live-action porn
>making. Which is probably why I watch so bloody few of them. H anime, on
Ah, so it is about "reality" to an extent.
A lot of the anti-porn arguments I've seen don't depend on what happened
behind the scenes, though; they deal more with use and what those videos
represent, what fantasies they claim to sell "equally" to a society that
is not.
>respect. And no one has to catch it on the face. Unless they like that
If you don't like that, why watch cartoons catch it on the face?
>Entertainment to those who want to be entertained by that sort of thing.
Supposedly "sexual" entertainment, to men.
>No, they're an entertainment experience, if you like that sort of thing.
>Books are a substitute for experience, just like anything else that isn't
>right in front of you and breathing.
Videos don't breathe either.
Books can't be entertainment? Videos can't be educational? I don't even
think there's a hair here for you to split.
>> Did you ever watch a video or a film strip in elementary school?
>Except for the MST3K people, how many people consider those entertaining?
I don't know. How many people consider them educational?
>> Did you ever learn something from a book?
>Of course I've learned from books. Including the fact that others books
>can and do lie and distort facts.
What about others' films? Ever heard the phrase, "propaganda film"?
>> Well I don't, and I'll be here to remind you, so whenever you're ready I'm
>> anxious to be reintroduced to all the authors I quoted in this discussion.
>Get the bozack. Why don't you, if it's so important to you?
It's important because it is your complaint about me in this discussion.
Consider this a reminder.
>I think it would be worthwhile if you took a one-year or so leave of
>absence from this newsgroup. At the least, a lot of people here would be
>happier, including myself.
You could always just skip my messages, you know.
>> I didn't recommend live action to the person asking, I recommended ANIME.
>Yeah. Non-H anime. That's not what he was asking about.
I explained my decision.
>Then bung a big [OT] in the subject line before you post so we'll know.
Maybe I will, once you show that you can do the same in your messages
about me that you stick in unrelated threads....
>> Why don't you put a cap on your complaint by listing the authors I quoted
>> in this thread, and then we can bring this to a close.
>Because I can't, and attempting to gather the materials to do so would
>likely turn me into someone like you at some point. That scares me.
Can't or won't?
I'm scared by people who are content to answer all their questions for
themselves with no other input.
Sleep well. Let's clear off that part about the people I quoted in this
discussion and put it to rest too.
Mike A
Matt Martin
David Watson <aj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> imparted the following wisdom unto us:
> Yeah, yeah...It's 3:43 AM. I'm tired. I will now drop the name that ends
> horrendously devolved threads like this--"Hitler"--and go to sleep.
Oh come now... You know that purposely invoking Godwin's Law to kill a
thread is always doomed to failure and only serves to perpetuate the thread...
--
Matt Martin PGP key ID: 0x512666AB
buf...@nekomusume.net / buf...@yggdrasil.dhs.org ======================
UR Japanese Anime Club home page: http://www.student.richmond.edu/~anime
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The fool thinks he is wise, but the wise man doth know himself to be
a fool."
-- William Shakespeare
M Arnold
>>> Why don't you put a cap on your complaint by listing the authors I quoted
>>> in this thread, and then we can bring this to a close.
..... I guess he forgot. Or maybe I wasn't being brainwashed by those
authors after all (maybe there just weren't any authors). Next time I'll
have to be a little pickier about whether or not these red herrings...
ahh, complaints of his really need to be fished out. :^/
Finally, in the spirit of good sportsmanship, I found one late 'reference'
I can make for David at the last minute here, an article I discovered
while we were having our discussion and mentioned in another thread:
http://www.jcult.com/articles/cybporn/cybporn.htm
For sexual romance in anime, I suggested we remove the "H" and see what
would be left to pick from then. I think something similar came up in
another thread recently, but is anime 'love' all about pre-date tension
and then, poof, the end? What about romantic anime that's not hentai?
Instead of one-sided, boring, anti-climatic fantasies like Oh My Goddess,
or tales that end abruptly with the kiss, sex or marriage, what about
stories about two people relating to each other... not 'get the girl' (or
'get the guy'), not fumbling around all the time wondering how to say "I
like you," instead the two are together now--and what happens? What's the
next on the list for someone who likes Kare-Kano? Or does sex deserve to
be censored; *should* sleeping with one's partner be left in the "dirty"
movies?
"Summer of Sam" just came out in Japan. I saw it last year. Anyone else
catch it?
Mike A
Antaeus Feldspar
> >>> Secondly, I have quoted specifically related resources in other threads on
> >>> the subject of porn in this group.
> >>Sometime when I've really got nothing else to do, I'll check Deja News.
> > A-ha, so you've got a headache *and* you're above the pathetic act of
> > wasting your time researching stupid messages on Usenet. Maybe I'll try
> > that excuse next time.
>
> Or you could try not bothering to open your cryptosmartass piehole in the
> first place. Really, when all is said and done, you are living proof that
> you can have a good education, keep on top of the news, claim to follow a
> wide variety of subjects and still be a massive drag.
Some people are educated beyond their intelligence.
Some people are educated beyond their wisdom.
Mike Arnold is a prime example of someone who is educated beyond
his honesty. He seems to actually take pride in the fact that he won't
subject the received wisdom from his precious books to rigorous critical
analysis -- a fact which the authors of the books he reveres would
doubtless despise in him, if they were to know of his slavish adherence.
The people who write books which matter are those who keep
themselves aware of both the received wisdom, and aware of what's
actually going on in the world outside -- and are honest about raising
the alarms when the two don't match. Mike Arnold, on the other hand,
thinks that all the hard work has already been done for him, by the
people who wrote his books; he needn't actually *think* about any issue,
only how to use appeal to authority, misdirection, the fallacy of
division, the existential fallacy, and of course the ad hominem argument
to ruthlessly beat down anyone who actually tries to compare real life
to the dogma of his books.
andrew osmond
>For sexual romance in anime, I suggested we remove the "H" and see what
>would be left to pick from then. I think something similar came up in
>another thread recently, but is anime 'love' all about pre-date tension
>and then, poof, the end? What about romantic anime that's not hentai?
>Instead of one-sided, boring, anti-climatic fantasies like Oh My Goddess,
>or tales that end abruptly with the kiss, sex or marriage, what about
>stories about two people relating to each other... not 'get the girl' (or
>'get the guy'), not fumbling around all the time wondering how to say "I
>like you," instead the two are together now--and what happens? What's the
>next on the list for someone who likes Kare-Kano? Or does sex deserve to
>be censored; *should* sleeping with one's partner be left in the "dirty"
>movies?
Most anime is aimed at under-twenties in Japan. I suppose the marketers
simply see the percieved audiences as relating more to dates and 'first-
love' stories than 'steady couple' dramas. Then again, maybe it's just
me (hangdog expression).
I've heard of one big exception on the manga side - Kenshi Hirokane,
whose 'Shooting Stars in the Twilight' strips deal with divorcees,
widowed characters and - horrors! - even long-time couples. There's a
big Hirokane feature in Manga Max 6.
>
>"Summer of Sam" just came out in Japan. I saw it last year. Anyone else
>catch it?
>
I quite liked it, but I thought the main protagonist (the dance king)
was considerably _more_ neanderthal and unpleasant than the average
anime male. If only Sam hadn't passed him over...
--
andrew osmond
M Arnold
>M Arnold <n934...@cc.wwu.edu> writes
>Most anime is aimed at under-twenties in Japan. I suppose the marketers
>simply see the percieved audiences as relating more to dates and 'first-
You've got a point, but Anno's show did do pretty well while digging well
past the 'first' date, kiss, or whatever. The times they are a-changin'?
>I've heard of one big exception on the manga side - Kenshi Hirokane,
One I can name off the top of my head is Yamada Murasaki. She deals with
marriage/divorce relationships and stuff like that (and cats). I'm not
sure if anything of hers is available in English or not. I know a few of
her comics have run in recent issues of Garo. But comics cover a much
wider ground than cartoons anyway...
Mike A