Fukunaga to Activeanime.com: ADV is finished -- there are only three meaningful companies left...
darkst...@gmail.com
Gen Fukunaga was interviewed at or just after AX for the "Keep anime
legal -- save the industry" site Activeanime.com. Here's what he says
about the industry at large and its future:
======
Q: How will industry handle the strain/pressure if any of the other
major distributors pull out of the industry?
A: To be honest, I only see two other distributors left in the
market: Viz and Bandai. I don’t see any indication whatsoever that
there are any problems in those two companies. Those are the two,
actually the three (FUNimation), major distributors in the U.S, and
nobody else should be considered as a major distribution company
outside of we three. It will be a three-market environment I think.
I think the biggest question for us is what’s going to happen if anime
keeps getting more popular and Warner Brothers decides to jump in and
throw a couple hundred million dollars into it.
======
Unless WB can aggressively enforce copyrights throughout the industry
sufficiently, I can't see why they'd want in. That is the first
problem I have with the statement.
Secondly, after AX, I'm a bit shocked he even recognizes Viz and
Bandai as "co-majors", as it were. He's got easily the majority of
the R1 industry now. (He's got everything ADV post-2006 and all of
what's left of Geneon -- take those three companies as of 2006, and
that's about half the industry. Advent Children is less and less in
play. When I say 60-65%, I'm not just throwing the number out there.
Between them going up, the industry going downward, and Funi gobbling
up it's two biggest 2006 competitors alive...)
I could definitely see an early-2009 decision, if the anime ratings
aren't high enough and sales for TTGL don't justify the hype, that
Bandai pulls a Dentsu and gets out of R1, additionally deciding that
what anime they will release will be B-R. TTGL will probably dictate
Bandai Ent.'s future in R1 anime, methinks.
Viz, really, isn't that much of a true anime player anymore -- as I've
said in other fora, they're into the Shonen Jump franchises and that's
pretty much it. (C'mon, wanting to release Nana after cutting Full
Moon off half-way? Please...)
This is why I said, even to your scoffs, that the health of Navarre
Corporation is now the business of everyone in anime.
There aren't as many problems in those two companies as there are in
Navarre -- that is true. But market forces may compel re-examinations
of their places in the industry should things continue as they are.
But the other thing is that it sounds like he took one look at the ADV
situation and didn't even think they were worth buying out? I mean,
seriously -- with TAN dying (both online and VOD on television), it
would no longer surprise me if CrunchyShit got what was left for under
$100K.
Mike
Travers Naran
> Unless WB can aggressively enforce copyrights throughout the industry
> sufficiently, I can't see why they'd want in. That is the first
> problem I have with the statement.
WB will make money. They know how to make money from ads and living in
an environment with heavy piracy. Trust me -- if WB gets involved, they
will be profitable, but their product will be of little interest to the
"core" anime fans. Core anime fans need to worry about the rest.
But as I've told you a dozen times before, Mike, the industry will
survive. :-)
(from the article)
> Well, it is true that the DVD market has been dropping in the last
> couple of years, and we’re not in the best level per SKU as we would
> like. Fortunately, what we are seeing now is the stabilization of
> the number at this point of time. The number seems to be stabilizing,
> and the issue really is not bad content; in the entertainment
> industry content is king, and the content is still good.
My "right sizing" observation.
> It’s really caused by what you said, and we feel the illegal pirating
> of content occurs in the time frame between when a title is out in
> Japan and when it can be made available to the U.S. market. And there
> is always the question of pricing. Some people will argue as to
> whether or not Bandai (Visual U.S.A) is setting DVD prices that are
> right for the rest of the market. The good news is the fan base is
> growing and the content is there. Therefore, it’s just the way we
> have to monetize differently, and that is all. The DVD sales are not
> going to account for 95% of your total sales; you have to start
> making money on your own digital distribution mechanism, your own
> broadcast mechanism, and other ways to monetize the customer base.
> Now, the problem is still there that monetization and other methods
> are not making up the difference against the DVD drop.
And as I pointed out, they are now looking for other ways to make money.
It will take them some time, within 2 years, but they will or else be
out of business.
> Secondly, after AX, I'm a bit shocked he even recognizes Viz and
> Bandai as "co-majors", as it were. He's got easily the majority of
> the R1 industry now.
For sheer dollars and SKU's moved, Viz and Bandai are still huge. Viz
especially so, but as we all know, Viz is virtually a one trick pony now
(Naruto).
> Viz, really, isn't that much of a true anime player anymore -- as I've
> said in other fora, they're into the Shonen Jump franchises and that's
> pretty much it. (C'mon, wanting to release Nana after cutting Full
> Moon off half-way? Please...)
You're comparing to old industry to a new one. Viz = Shuiesha and
Kodansha in English. That is _all_ you should view them as -- they are
not really part of the anime industry at all really. Not any more than
Disney is. Just leave them out of the equation.
But this leads to my other prediction. You may see Japanese companies
hire away the managers/talent that built ADV, Funimation, etc. to build
their own global releasing companies. I think it will a vertical
integration: A studio owned by a bigger publisher/distributor with their
own TV channels, web sites and definitely their own distribution
channels, but dedicated to their product alone (like the former Buena
Vista companies for Disney). The big disadvantage is the innovative and
ground-breaking anime will now become extremely rare unless championed
by an experienced, successful producer/director.
The Geneon fiasco was the first failure, but from what I learned
watching Japanese companies compete, this will not be the last attempt.
They'll keep doing it until they can figure it out. And they will.
> But the other thing is that it sounds like he took one look at the ADV
> situation and didn't even think they were worth buying out? I mean,
> seriously -- with TAN dying (both online and VOD on television), it
> would no longer surprise me if CrunchyShit got what was left for under
> $100K.
That would be hilarious if CrunchyRoll bought out TAN, but as I've said
before: I think Funimation wants to build its own brand and venue. I
just hope they're smart enough to share their venues, and from the
article, it sounds like Funimation is going to create an oligarchy with
Viz and Bandai. That would be good for the big companies, but I'm not
sure that will be so good for the fans or studios...
--
-----
Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
darkst...@gmail.com
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Unless WB can aggressively enforce copyrights throughout the industry
> > sufficiently, I can't see why they'd want in. That is the first
> > problem I have with the statement.
>
> WB will make money. They know how to make money from ads and living in
> an environment with heavy piracy. Trust me -- if WB gets involved, they
> will be profitable, but their product will be of little interest to the
> "core" anime fans. Core anime fans need to worry about the rest.
They won't be involved in anime, that's for sure. The fact of the
matter is that I can't see how WB gets involved in an industry openly
hemhorraging (sp?) hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
> But as I've told you a dozen times before, Mike, the industry will
> survive. :-)
Can't really see it at this point. Even if an animation industry
could survive over here, the loss of the "advances" that Gen is
talking about is going to mean most of the Japanese studios are going
to be kaput -- and quickly!! Gonzo is already insolvent, and probably
won't last the next year.
That's the next big thing -- once ADV finally dies and it's three
majors, then the Japanese studios start falling apart -- hardcore.
> (from the article)
>
> > Well, it is true that the DVD market has been dropping in the last
> > couple of years, and we’re not in the best level per SKU as we would
> > like. Fortunately, what we are seeing now is the stabilization of
> > the number at this point of time. The number seems to be stabilizing,
> > and the issue really is not bad content; in the entertainment
> > industry content is king, and the content is still good.
Which, of course, runs counter to the argument that most people have
had -- most people in the thievery side of things have criticized Gen
and others openly for licensing a bunch of crap.
I'd be surprised, really, if the death of ADV and the death of singles
doesn't mean another 20% drop this year (to $200M for DVDs).
> > It’s really caused by what you said, and we feel the illegal pirating
> > of content occurs in the time frame between when a title is out in
> > Japan and when it can be made available to the U.S. market. And there
> > is always the question of pricing. Some people will argue as to
> > whether or not Bandai (Visual U.S.A) is setting DVD prices that are
> > right for the rest of the market. The good news is the fan base is
> > growing and the content is there. Therefore, it’s just the way we
> > have to monetize differently, and that is all. The DVD sales are not
> > going to account for 95% of your total sales; you have to start
> > making money on your own digital distribution mechanism, your own
> > broadcast mechanism, and other ways to monetize the customer base.
> > Now, the problem is still there that monetization and other methods
> > are not making up the difference against the DVD drop.
He's wrong. The fan base is growing fat, it is not growing.
Why, for example (even though I think 50K is a POS number for AX), has
attendance at AX purported to have doubled in a timeframe where the
industry has slashed in half?
> And as I pointed out, they are now looking for other ways to make money.
> It will take them some time, within 2 years, but they will or else be
> out of business.
They'll be out of business, then, within 2 years.
Personally, I'd be somewhat surprised if all three companies make it
past another year.
> > Secondly, after AX, I'm a bit shocked he even recognizes Viz and
> > Bandai as "co-majors", as it were. He's got easily the majority of
> > the R1 industry now.
>
> For sheer dollars and SKU's moved, Viz and Bandai are still huge. Viz
> especially so, but as we all know, Viz is virtually a one trick pony now
> (Naruto).
Viz is Shonen Jump and that's it. The whole Shojo Beat experiment, on
the anime side?? Epic Fail.
The real question is: What's going to happen to the Naru-tards when
they have no discretionary income for the foreseeable future?
> > Viz, really, isn't that much of a true anime player anymore -- as I've
> > said in other fora, they're into the Shonen Jump franchises and that's
> > pretty much it. (C'mon, wanting to release Nana after cutting Full
> > Moon off half-way? Please...)
>
> You're comparing to old industry to a new one. Viz = Shuiesha and
> Kodansha in English. That is _all_ you should view them as -- they are
> not really part of the anime industry at all really. Not any more than
> Disney is. Just leave them out of the equation.
You do that (and, believe me, I've tried), and you really question
whether there will be _ANY_ American anime industry within one year.
Between Navarre's problems and the Bandai situation, I'm not a fan of
either company making it through another year. If Bandai really was
invested in an American anime industry, it'd be talking about hooking
up with Funi and merging.
> But this leads to my other prediction. You may see Japanese companies
> hire away the managers/talent that built ADV, Funimation, etc. to build
> their own global releasing companies. I think it will a vertical
> integration: A studio owned by a bigger publisher/distributor with their
> own TV channels, web sites and definitely their own distribution
> channels, but dedicated to their product alone (like the former Buena
> Vista companies for Disney). The big disadvantage is the innovative and
> ground-breaking anime will now become extremely rare unless championed
> by an experienced, successful producer/director.
No, it'll cease to exist entirely -- as it largely has done already.
Basically, understand that each 13 episodes is a million dollars, at
least, to Americanize (and at least another million to make in Japan
in the first place!!). Fact is, the R1 industry is going to go away
-- it has to. There's not enough money there to sustain the mess.
The fans have set the realistic price point at zero.
> The Geneon fiasco was the first failure, but from what I learned
> watching Japanese companies compete, this will not be the last attempt.
> They'll keep doing it until they can figure it out. And they will.
It'll be economic seppuku if they do.
> > But the other thing is that it sounds like he took one look at the ADV
> > situation and didn't even think they were worth buying out? I mean,
> > seriously -- with TAN dying (both online and VOD on television), it
> > would no longer surprise me if CrunchyShit got what was left for under
> > $100K.
>
> That would be hilarious if CrunchyRoll bought out TAN, but as I've said
TAN will probably die out. CR probably will end up (and not for much)
with ADV's title base -- it already probably has a more reliable web
base, and the network on television can go out of business for all the
industry really cares.
> before: I think Funimation wants to build its own brand and venue. I
> just hope they're smart enough to share their venues, and from the
> article, it sounds like Funimation is going to create an oligarchy with
> Viz and Bandai. That would be good for the big companies, but I'm not
> sure that will be so good for the fans or studios...
The real question is getting Viz and the like to play along -- I
think, eventually (and sooner rather than later), we will be down to
one company -- a meaningful monopoly.
Mike
8-Bit Star
> But as I've told you a dozen times before, Mike, the industry will
> survive. :-)
Is this whole business reminding anyone else of the
Great Video Game Crash of 1983?
Or of the Crash of 1994?
Travers Naran
That's been my model all along. :-)
One of the interesting problems that occurred between 1983 and 1987
was the rise of computer gaming, and then the rise of piracy. With
the availability of 9600 baud modems, warez BBSs sprouted up like
weeds and nearly killed computer gaming, but then the consoles came
along and "solved" the piracy problem... sort of.
Antonio E. Gonzalez
Yeah, whatever happened to video games? ; )
Invid Fan
<tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Unless WB can aggressively enforce copyrights throughout the industry
> > sufficiently, I can't see why they'd want in. That is the first
> > problem I have with the statement.
>
> WB will make money. They know how to make money from ads and living in
> an environment with heavy piracy. Trust me -- if WB gets involved, they
> will be profitable, but their product will be of little interest to the
> "core" anime fans. Core anime fans need to worry about the rest.
>
So long as they are interest to core "animation" fans, that's all I
care about :) Put Bruce Timm in charge.
--
Chris Mack *quote under construction*
'Invid Fan'
8-Bit Star
Ummm... WHAT?
Sorry, but that sounds like revisionist history to me.
Consoles existed almost from the very beginning, and they've
practically always carried the brunt of the gaming hobby--
computers, being expensive beasts, were for either rich
people, or uber-nerds. I doubt enough people owned a
computer--let alone ones with baud modems--to make
internet piracy a problem.
Invid Fan
<a43c6b63-f697-4647...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
8-Bit Star <nes...@gmail.com> wrote:
And piracy was rampant long before modems became a factor. If one
person got a copy of a program everyone in the school lab had a copy
within the week. Commercial programs even let you crack every type of
copy protection.
Travers Naran
>
> Ummm... WHAT?
>
> Sorry, but that sounds like revisionist history to me.
> Consoles existed almost from the very beginning, and they've
> practically always carried the brunt of the gaming hobby--
> computers, being expensive beasts, were for either rich
> people, or uber-nerds. I doubt enough people owned a
> computer--let alone ones with baud modems--to make
> internet piracy a problem.
Sounds like you were born after 1980.
Look up "Commodore 64" and the Atari 400 & 800 (albeit it was not as
popular).
The consoles were first of course, starting with simple things like the
Magnavox Odyssey back in 1972 then evolving to the Atari 2600 -- my
first console (I'm dating myself, I know).
But after consoles wiped out, everyone thought the C64 and its like were
going to be the future of gaming, but because they used floppy disks,
piracy was rampant. By about 1987, warez BBSs were sprouting up like
weeds. (*cough* this poster may or may not have belonged to several of
them >_> *cough*)
A 300 bps modem (circa 1985 for me) could download a C64 disk in about
an hour and a half. Of course, this did cause one's parents to question
why your computer was still on at 3 am and why you were up with it on a
school night. <_< A 1200 bps modem (circa 1987 for me but already
popular with my friends a couple years before that) could do it in 20
minutes. We were definitely not rich, and back then, a lot of kids had
C64s. The only games coming out were for the Commodore 64 and Atari
computers. Occasionally for the Apple II, but who cared? :-)
The C64 had dirt-cheap modems too. Commodore left out the expensive
parts from their modems and let the CPU do the work. The C64 went a
step further to emulate touch tone:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_64_peripherals#Serial_communications>
My first modem was $60 CDN. That was still cheaper than even ONE game
for a C64. I dunno how you figure it was for "rich people and the
uber-geeks".
But back to the rant: The C64 was THE gaming platform until the Nintendo
8-bit showed up. Then it became popular with EA et al because all of
sudden, no one could pirate your game and have it copied across the
country within 24 hours.[1] The Nintendo "cracks" came later of course. ;-)
Revisionist history my ass, "8-bit star". I LIVED it! ;-)
[1] See "Game Over" by David Sheff for how Nintendo seduced EA into
entering the console market.
sanjian
When you grew up as poor as I did, consoles were also for rich people. Oh,
sure, I finally did get a NES (just over $100 from K-Mart), but as expensive
as it was, it was my only present that year.
ender
> Look up "Commodore 64" and the Atari 400 & 800 (albeit it was not as
> popular).
Back in the day, a student radio station aired ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64
games after midnight. Just record to cassette and then hope it loads on the
machine :)
> But back to the rant: The C64 was THE gaming platform until the Nintendo
> 8-bit showed up. Then it became popular with EA et al because all of
> sudden, no one could pirate your game and have it copied across the
> country within 24 hours.[1] The Nintendo "cracks" came later of course. ;-)
My first console was PS2, but I remember that friends with Megadrive,
(S)NES and Gameboy used to have cartridges with 10-30 games on them.
--
< ender ><><><><><><><>◊<><><><><><><>◊<><><><><><><>< e at ena dot si >
Because 10 billion years' time is so fragile, so ephemeral...
it arouses such a bittersweet, almost heartbreaking fondness.
Travers Naran
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:24:45 GMT, Travers Naran wrote:
> > Look up "Commodore 64" and the Atari 400 & 800 (albeit it was not as
> > popular).
>
> Back in the day, a student radio station aired ZX Spectrum and Commodore 64
> games after midnight. Just record to cassette and then hope it loads on the
> machine :)
OMFG! X-D I used to have a cassette device (Datasette) for the
longest time. I have fond memories of using my stereo to copy games.
BTW, remember to take the source tape OUT of the stereo before playing
said stereo.
> > But back to the rant: The C64 was THE gaming platform until the Nintendo
> > 8-bit showed up. Then it became popular with EA et al because all of
> > sudden, no one could pirate your game and have it copied across the
> > country within 24 hours.[1] The Nintendo "cracks" came later of course. ;-)
>
> My first console was PS2, but I remember that friends with Megadrive,
> (S)NES and Gameboy used to have cartridges with 10-30 games on them.
The first NES crack I recall was something that could connect to the
serial port on your computer.
ender
> OMFG! X-D I used to have a cassette device (Datasette) for the
> longest time. I have fond memories of using my stereo to copy games.
> BTW, remember to take the source tape OUT of the stereo before playing
> said stereo.
I don't remember anybody not having a cassette recorder hooked up to
Spectrums and Commodores, although I only ever saw one C64 floppy drive
(and it was considered a rarity).
> The first NES crack I recall was something that could connect to the
> serial port on your computer.
What I have seen was definitely a cartridge, which once you inserted it,
presented you with a menu of games.
Travers Naran
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:25:56 -0700 (PDT), Travers Naran wrote:
> > OMFG! X-D I used to have a cassette device (Datasette) for the
> > longest time. I have fond memories of using my stereo to copy games.
> > BTW, remember to take the source tape OUT of the stereo before playing
> > said stereo.
>
> I don't remember anybody not having a cassette recorder hooked up to
> Spectrums and Commodores, although I only ever saw one C64 floppy drive
> (and it was considered a rarity).
Out here in Vancouver, floppy drives were all the rage early on.
> > The first NES crack I recall was something that could connect to the
> > serial port on your computer.
>
> What I have seen was definitely a cartridge, which once you inserted it,
> presented you with a menu of games.
I'd seen those too, but later. I recall they were a pain because you
needed an EEPROM burner so most people were buying those multi-game
cartridges from Hong Kong.
Antonio E. Gonzalez
You could've gotten a TRS-80, the ultimate "bargain" computer!
ender
> I'd seen those too, but later. I recall they were a pain because you
> needed an EEPROM burner so most people were buying those multi-game
> cartridges from Hong Kong.
I was too young back then to know where the cartridges came from, but they
were probably sold by local pirates (which would advertise their business
in various computer magazines till early 90's - and at least one of such
pirates later became legitimate game distributor).
8-Bit Star
> What I have seen was definitely a cartridge, which once you inserted it,
> presented you with a menu of games.
There were many of those. Some of them were even legal.
Anyone remember Action 52?
Chika
> > OMFG! X-D I used to have a cassette device (Datasette) for the
> > longest time. I have fond memories of using my stereo to copy games.
> > BTW, remember to take the source tape OUT of the stereo before playing
> > said stereo.
> I don't remember anybody not having a cassette recorder hooked up to
> Spectrums and Commodores, although I only ever saw one C64 floppy drive
> (and it was considered a rarity).
That's not surprising as the Commodore disc system was aimed more at the
business machine market. I can recall somebody complaining bitterly about
being sold one only to find that all the games he wanted to play were only
on cassette.
> > The first NES crack I recall was something that could connect to the
> > serial port on your computer.
> What I have seen was definitely a cartridge, which once you inserted it,
> presented you with a menu of games.
Sounds familiar.
--
//\ // Chika <miyuki><at><crashnet><org><uk>
// \// Mitsuo... Menda... naha naha...
... Hold on - wait, maybe the answer's looking for you.
Chika
It reminds me of my very first game; it was the Tandy version of "Pong"
which also included a few variants on the same theme and "Skeet"
(including gun!).
--
//\ // Chika <miyuki><at><crashnet><org><uk>
// \// Mitsuo... Menda... naha naha...
... Don't eat yellow snow.
Derek Janssen
> In article <J62dnen9fM269-HV...@posted.internetamerica>,
> sanjian <mun...@vt.edu> wrote:
>
>>8-Bit Star wrote:
>>
>>>On Jul 14, 12:07 pm, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>Ummm... WHAT?
>>>
>>>Sorry, but that sounds like revisionist history to me. Consoles
>>>existed almost from the very beginning, and they've practically always
>>>carried the brunt of the gaming hobby-- computers, being expensive
>>>beasts, were for either rich people, or uber-nerds. I doubt enough
>>>people owned a computer--let alone ones with baud modems--to make
>>>internet piracy a problem.
>
>
>>When you grew up as poor as I did, consoles were also for rich people.
>>Oh, sure, I finally did get a NES (just over $100 from K-Mart), but as
>>expensive as it was, it was my only present that year.
>
>
> It reminds me of my very first game; it was the Tandy version of "Pong"
> which also included a few variants on the same theme and "Skeet"
> (including gun!).
(Don't really have anything to add here, just changing the header to
salt Darky's wounds with the fact that his "trademark" can't seem to
hold our interest anymore in the almighty face of Thread Drift...) ^_^
Derek Janssen (watch, now Darky'll try to post something about the
computers *he* remembers, just so he won't be left alone on the playground)
eja...@verizon.net
sanjian
Ah, but I wanted a NES, because those were "real" games.
Travers Naran
> In article <J62dnen9fM269-HVnZ2dnUVZ_qHin...@posted.internetamerica>,
> sanjian <mun...@vt.edu> wrote:
> > When you grew up as poor as I did, consoles were also for rich people.
> > Oh, sure, I finally did get a NES (just over $100 from K-Mart), but as
> > expensive as it was, it was my only present that year.
>
> It reminds me of my very first game; it was the Tandy version of "Pong"
> which also included a few variants on the same theme and "Skeet"
> (including gun!).
I do admit I loved Duck Hunt for the NES. :-)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
You young punks. The original computer games were on the MAINFRAMES.
Colossal Cave/ADVENTURE. And Trek.
No such thing as "personal computers" when *I* started, by crackey!
*thumps cane on ground*
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Derek Janssen
> Derek Janssen wrote:
>
>> Chika wrote:
>>>
>>> It reminds me of my very first game; it was the Tandy version of "Pong"
>>> which also included a few variants on the same theme and "Skeet"
>>> (including gun!).
>>
>> (Don't really have anything to add here, just changing the header to
>> salt Darky's wounds with the fact that his "trademark" can't seem to
>> hold our interest anymore in the almighty face of Thread Drift...) ^_^
>>
>> (watch, now he'll try to post something about the
>> computers *he* remembers, just so he won't be left alone on the
>> playground)
>
> You young punks. The original computer games were on the MAINFRAMES.
> Colossal Cave/ADVENTURE. And Trek.
>
> No such thing as "personal computers" when *I* started, by crackey!
> *thumps cane on ground*
Don't you shake yer cane at ME, young-feller...You and your fancy
Gettysburg badge!
Why, I can remember playing "M*A*S*H: the Game" on the Atari!--And that
was *before* they buried all them "E.T."'s in the desert, too!
Derek Janssen (the way I heerd it, one gamer says to the other gamer,
"Sa-a-a-ayyy", he sez...)
eja...@verizon.net
sanjian
>>> It reminds me of my very first game; it was the Tandy version of
>>> "Pong" which also included a few variants on the same theme and
>>> "Skeet" (including gun!).
>>
>> (Don't really have anything to add here, just changing the header to
>> salt Darky's wounds with the fact that his "trademark" can't seem to
>> hold our interest anymore in the almighty face of Thread Drift...) ^_^
>> Derek Janssen (watch, now Darky'll try to post something about the
>> computers *he* remembers, just so he won't be left alone on the
>> playground) eja...@verizon.net
>
> You young punks. The original computer games were on the MAINFRAMES.
> Colossal Cave/ADVENTURE. And Trek.
>
> No such thing as "personal computers" when *I* started, by crackey!
> *thumps cane on ground*
Ada Lovelace asked me to tell you "Mainframes? As in electrical computers?
n00b."
Aje RavenStar
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:g5jep3$blt$9...@registered.motzarella.org...
Tic-Tac-Toe. Spacewars. Programs on paper tapes (which ten years later at
my first operator job I still used, but on the IBM printers, one per each
form). No monitors, you keyed in your move and waiting until the Okidata
printed out your move and the counter move on 11 x 17 paper......
bobbie sellers
juggling numbers with calculators and slide rules to make
tables for various reasons.
And everybody* well off enough to have money did their
own computing sometimes with an abacus, sometimes with
a mechanical calculator and of course recording results with
paper and pencil or ink when it came in bottles (and we
used steel quills in penmanship classes.)
And them there comic books were a new idea.
During WW II the electronic computer got underway.
Then them big electronic computers even crawled into comics
and science fiction to take over the world, sometimes because they
wanted to protect humanity from itself and sometimes because they
wanted to protect the world from humanity.
I do remember one story about personal computers which rode
on your shoulder and made you keep you appointments and do everything
on time. That is what your Blackberry will become. World of If SF
magazine, 1950s.
later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)
--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco
*Ningen banji Human beings do
Samazama no Every single kind
Baka a suru Of stupid thing
--- 117th edition of Haifu Yanagidaru published in 1832
Travers Naran
> I do remember one story about personal computers which rode
> on your shoulder and made you keep you appointments and do everything
> on time. That is what your Blackberry will become. World of If SF
> magazine, 1950s.
You mean they predicted Sumomo!!
<http://www.blackcerenity.com/pics/i_sumomo01-l.jpg>
Did they predict the tambourine playing too? ;-)
Travers Naran
>
> Colossal Cave/ADVENTURE. And Trek.
And Zork.
> No such thing as "personal computers" when *I* started, by crackey!
> *thumps cane on ground*
Don't hurt yourself, grammpa! :-P
My Dad learned to program in COBOL with punched cards. They didn't use
interactive keyboard entry back in 1960.
Nick
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:25:39 -0400, in rec.arts.anime.misc, "Sea Wasp (Ryk
E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> You young punks. The original computer games were on the MAINFRAMES.
>Colossal Cave/ADVENTURE. And Trek.
Colossal Cave: did you ever manage to get the golden nugget (or whatever it
was) up the stairs? Or figure out another way to get it out of the area it
was in?
Hmmm.... Google just came up with a bunch of hits for "Colossal Cave text
adventure game"; wonder if there's a PC version out there somewhere?
(I better forget that idea: don't think the 48-hour day has been invented
yet, and I already have more interests and obsessions that I can keep up
with.)
>
> No such thing as "personal computers" when *I* started, by crackey!
>*thumps cane on ground*
Ah yes, the good old days! (Says I, with the Beach Boys playing on my
stereo.)
Another one I played back then was a text adventure called 'Dungeon'. Years
later I saw an ad for a game from Infocom that mentioned a mailbox outside a
white house, and was inspired to replace my VIC-20 with a C-64 so I could
play Zork (the home computer version of 'Dungeon').
--
Nick <mailto:tans...@pobox.com>
Clarke's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic."
Invid Fan
<tans...@pobox.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:25:39 -0400, in rec.arts.anime.misc, "Sea Wasp (Ryk
> E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>
> > You young punks. The original computer games were on the MAINFRAMES.
> >Colossal Cave/ADVENTURE. And Trek.
>
> Colossal Cave: did you ever manage to get the golden nugget (or whatever it
> was) up the stairs? Or figure out another way to get it out of the area it
> was in?
>
> Hmmm.... Google just came up with a bunch of hits for "Colossal Cave text
> adventure game"; wonder if there's a PC version out there somewhere?
>
There are programs that can play the original code (which was platform
independent).
bobbie sellers
> bobbie sellers wrote:
>> I do remember one story about personal computers which rode
>> on your shoulder and made you keep you appointments and do everything
>> on time. That is what your Blackberry will become. World of If SF
>> magazine, 1950s.
>
> You mean they predicted Sumomo!!
> <http://www.blackcerenity.com/pics/i_sumomo01-l.jpg>
Not perscoms but nasty little reminding machines with electro-shocks
to make sure you adhered to the schedule.
>
> Did they predict the tambourine playing too? ;-)
No more like the weeping and moaning of the damned.
>
> --
> -----
> Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
> "Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)
--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco
Ningen banji Human beings do
8-Bit Star
> Hmmm.... Google just came up with a bunch of hits for "Colossal Cave text
> adventure game"; wonder if there's a PC version out there somewhere?
Dude, there's several. Heck, there's even expanded remakes.
http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/
darkst...@gmail.com
> One of the interesting problems that occurred between 1983 and 1987
> was the rise of computer gaming, and then the rise of piracy. With
> the availability of 9600 baud modems, warez BBSs sprouted up like
> weeds and nearly killed computer gaming, but then the consoles came
> along and "solved" the piracy problem... sort of.
Not really. The only reason (as I've said many times) that there IS a
video game console industry at all is that they haven't figured out
how to mass-produce modded consoles where people can steal it all off
the Net.
Once/If they do, it's all over -- instantaneously.
Mike
Megane
<dabbed0c-7f44-48ca...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 14, 1:47 am, 8-Bit Star <ness...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 14, 12:00 am, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is this whole business reminding anyone else of the
> > Great Video Game Crash of 1983?
> > Or of the Crash of 1994?
> That's been my model all along. :-)
>
> One of the interesting problems that occurred between 1983 and 1987
> was the rise of computer gaming, and then the rise of piracy. With
> the availability of 9600 baud modems, warez BBSs sprouted up like
> weeds and nearly killed computer gaming, but then the consoles came
> along and "solved" the piracy problem... sort of.
Except that piracy didn't cause The Crash. It was caused by a flood of
crap titles made possible because there were no lockouts of any sort on
the Atari 2600, and a bunch of 3rd-party companies sprang up with
business models that equated new game cartridge==big money, with no
consideration for quality.
Mythicon is probably the best example of this. They made three crappy
2600 games, two of which were the exact same game with different
graphics. Their games started at $9.99 (when new first-party games were
$30-$40) but were almost instantly dumped into bins for $1 each. Even
Atari had stinkers caused by management rushing production to meet
deadlines with no consideration for quality: E.T. and Pac-Man.
The failure of Atari to come up with a GOOD newer generation console
didn't help. (Jack Tramiel came in and killed off their only techinally
advanced console, the outside-developed Atari 7800, just as it was about
to be released.) Coleco's attempt to turn their own video game system
into a home computer (the mere attempt, even more so than the failure)
knocked out the only other technically advanced console of the day. (The
5200 was not advanced, it was just a 400 with the numbers filed off, put
in an Xbox-HUEG case mostly full of air, and given crappy controls
designed more to use Atari patents than for comfort or reliability.)
Cabbage Patch Dolls kept Coleco alive a year longer than they should
have after the Adam fiasco. Maybe trying to turn a video game console
into a computer could be compared with an anime videos company trying to
start a cable TV network?
The home game console industry was completely dead by 1984, before warez
could become a major problem. Warez certainly didn't stop Nintendo from
walking into a "dead" industry and taking over almost overnight, and
staying on top for most of the next 15 years.
And now we have (in 2004-2007 or so) the U.S. anime companies eager to
pay big money for licenses of mediocre series as though new anime==big
money, with no consideration for quality. Back in the days before The
Crash, the game companies also scrambled to get licenses for arcade
titles, even obscure ones, so maybe there's a comparison there too.
There is a parallel, but The Crash was not started by piracy, it was
started by lack of quality. There was even a lack of keeping up with
technology which compares to the demand for streaming anime. Piracy is a
red herring... most if it is done by people who wouldn't have paid you
money in the first place. But by skimping on quality, you lose the
people who WOULD be paying you money. You also dilute the entire market
by flooding the shelves with crap.
If any predctions can be made by comparing the anime industry of today
with the video game industry of 1982, it is that after a crash, someone
is going to walk in with a non-stupid business model and dominate the
industry for years.
Megane
Invid Fan <in...@loclanet.com> wrote:
> There are programs that can play the original code (which was platform
> independent).
...or as much as was possible when doing text manipulation in Fortran.
Travers Naran
>
> Except that piracy didn't cause The Crash. It was caused by a flood of
> crap titles made possible because there were no lockouts of any sort on
> the Atari 2600, and a bunch of 3rd-party companies sprang up with
> business models that equated new game cartridge==big money, with no
> consideration for quality.
Ummm.... I didn't say the crash was because of piracy... o_O
Nick
Found that page in my googling and bookmarked it, but I'm going to resist
temptation for the moment: I really do not have time for yet another
obsession (and, yes, if I get into that I will become obsessed: I know that
from experience).
Thanks, though!
--
Nick <mailto:tans...@pobox.com>
"Natural laws have no pity." R.A.H.
sanjian
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:25:39 -0400, in rec.arts.anime.misc, "Sea Wasp
> (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>
>> You young punks. The original computer games were on the MAINFRAMES.
>> Colossal Cave/ADVENTURE. And Trek.
>
> Colossal Cave: did you ever manage to get the golden nugget (or
> whatever it was) up the stairs? Or figure out another way to get it
> out of the area it was in?
Best I could find:
8-Bit Star
> Except that piracy didn't cause The Crash. It was caused by a flood of
> crap titles made possible because there were no lockouts of any sort on
> the Atari 2600, and a bunch of 3rd-party companies sprang up with
> business models that equated new game cartridge==big money, with no
> consideration for quality.
Fact is, nobody really KNOWS what caused the crash.
It's all just theory. And every theory has something
wrong with it.
I don't believe that a flood of crap caused the crash. Every
industry ever has had a flood of crap, and many of them are
still having it, yet I've only heard of video game and comic
book crashes.
8-Bit Star
> Not really. The only reason (as I've said many times) that there IS a
> video game console industry at all is that they haven't figured out
> how to mass-produce modded consoles where people can steal it all off
> the Net.
>
> Once/If they do, it's all over -- instantaneously.
>
> Mike
I know I said I wouldn't respond to this turd who thinks he's
so deep because he's got a hole in his brain, but I must say
this:
You know what's wrong with that scenario?
There's a little thing called "Freeware." These are programs
(including games) that you can download for free off the
internet, LEGALLY--They were actually DESIGNED so that
you could DOWNLOAD THEM FOR FREE.
These have existed since the days of the BBS. Games
like Nethack have thrived this way for decades.
In your model, Freeware would've killed off the commercial
gaming industry in the early-to-mid-1990s. Somehow, it
didn't.
Yeah, its a mystery to me too.
Rob Kelk
wrote:
I doubt that any single cause can create a crash. In this case, it was
probably a bit of "flood of crap", a bit of "piracy", a bit of "there's
some new entertainment option" (IIRC, pre-recorded movies were starting
to appear right about then), and a bit of something else I can't think
of right now...
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
Travers Naran
> There's a little thing called "Freeware." These are programs
> (including games) that you can download for free off the
> internet, LEGALLY--They were actually DESIGNED so that
> you could DOWNLOAD THEM FOR FREE.
>
> These have existed since the days of the BBS. Games
> like Nethack have thrived this way for decades.
>
> In your model, Freeware would've killed off the commercial
> gaming industry in the early-to-mid-1990s. Somehow, it
> didn't.
>
> Yeah, its a mystery to me too.
You are comparing Freeware to piracy??? *the mind boggles*
8-Bit Star
> You are comparing Freeware to piracy??? *the mind boggles*
No. I'm saying that, Mike's premise is that if people can
get games for free, they won't pay for them and thus the
industry can collapse. I'm attempting to disprove that
by showing that games can in fact be gotten for free
LEGALLY and yet it still hasn't caused the kind of
collapse he predicts.
darkst...@gmail.com
> 8-Bit Star wrote:
> > There's a little thing called "Freeware." These are programs
> > (including games) that you can download for free off the
> > internet, LEGALLY--They were actually DESIGNED so that
> > you could DOWNLOAD THEM FOR FREE.
>
> > These have existed since the days of the BBS. Games
> > like Nethack have thrived this way for decades.
>
> > In your model, Freeware would've killed off the commercial
> > gaming industry in the early-to-mid-1990s. Somehow, it
> > didn't.
>
> > Yeah, its a mystery to me too.
>
> You are comparing Freeware to piracy??? *the mind boggles*
He obviously is thinking that the quality of a freeware game can also
equate to that of a console video game.
*boggle*
Mike
8-Bit Star
> He obviously is thinking that the quality of a freeware game can also
> equate to that of a console video game.
>
> *boggle*
>
> Mike
You must not have played many freeware games. A lot of
them are quite good.
darkst...@gmail.com
But of the quality of Maddens and GTAs and FFs, etc.???
Hmm...
Mike (And, also, remember that I specifically referenced the consoles
at least twice in the article you responded to.)
Travers Naran
That's not what we were talking about. We're talking about pirating
games that you're supposed to be paying money for.
8-Bit Star
> But of the quality of Maddens and GTAs and FFs, etc.???
>
> Hmm...
Quality is subjective. Personally I hate GTA and at least some
of the FFs and I'm not a Sports Gamer.
That being said, no matter what you look for in a game, it
can be found freeware. Freeware actually has potential to
be better since they don't have to deal with executive
meddling or focus tests and don't have to listen to a suit.
Some damned awesome games have been produced in
the freeware scene (such as Nethack).
> Mike (And, also, remember that I specifically referenced the consoles
> at least twice in the article you responded to.)
A video game is a video game is a video game, and what's
good for the goose is good for the gander.
Blade
"8-Bit Star" <nes...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:17f15de8-e1af-4ce6...@r35g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 17, 11:12 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> But of the quality of Maddens and GTAs and FFs, etc.???
>>
>> Hmm...
>
> Quality is subjective. Personally I hate GTA and at least some
> of the FFs and I'm not a Sports Gamer.
Quality is indeed subjective, but the presence of large design teams and
advanced graphics are not. Nor is it subjective that the vast majority of
popular PC games since ever have had both of those things, and freeware
never does.
> That being said, no matter what you look for in a game, it
> can be found freeware. Freeware actually has potential to
> be better since they don't have to deal with executive
> meddling or focus tests and don't have to listen to a suit.
> Some damned awesome games have been produced in
> the freeware scene (such as Nethack).
Yes, but have any of them made an enormous amount of money, even given the
far smaller group the profits would be divided along?
Personally, I have to frankly admit I've never found a freeware game that
was worth more than a few plays. That being said, some of the genres where
free/shareware games are relatively competitive (shooter games, and things
like Cave Story) are not my cup of tea, so I'm not dismissing the whole
genre.
-
Blade
ender
> Quality is indeed subjective, but the presence of large design teams and
> advanced graphics are not. Nor is it subjective that the vast majority of
> popular PC games since ever have had both of those things, and freeware
> never does.
I've seen freeware games with very impressive graphics and good gameplay,
and I've also seen a ton of commercial games that had good graphics - and
nothing else (not all of them of course - I'm just trying to say that a big
design team and good graphics don't make a good game).
--
< ender ><><><><><><><>◊<><><><><><><>◊<><><><><><><>< e at ena dot si >
Because 10 billion years' time is so fragile, so ephemeral...
it arouses such a bittersweet, almost heartbreaking fondness.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> darkst...@gmail.com wrote on [Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:12:54 -0700 (PDT)]:
> > On Jul 17, 8:59 pm, 8-Bit Star <ness...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 17, 10:11 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> > He obviously is thinking that the quality of a freeware game can also
> >> > equate to that of a console video game.
> >>
> >> > *boggle*
> >>
> >> > Mike
> >>
> >> You must not have played many freeware games. A lot of
> >> them are quite good.
> >
> > But of the quality of Maddens and GTAs and FFs, etc.???
>
> I didn't realise Madden was associated with quality
>
For football gamers, they are. But who else matters more?
Laters. =)
Stan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ LostRune+sig [at] UofR [dot] net
| ( _| | http://www.uofr.net/~lostrune/
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
>>> On Jul 17, 10:11 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> He obviously is thinking that the quality of a freeware game can also
>>>> equate to that of a console video game.
>>>> *boggle*
>>>> Mike
>>> You must not have played many freeware games. A lot of
>>> them are quite good.
>> But of the quality of Maddens and GTAs and FFs, etc.???
>
EVERYTHING is associated with quality.
Good, bad, or indifferent.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com