For darkstar...
Travers Naran
--
-----
Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
darkst...@gmail.com
Mike
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/images/cms/anime-news-nina/22407/comic-24.jpg
>
>
Of course, the problem here is that Dorkstarky will take the ranting
loser to be "The Anime Fan", where the comic depicts 4 anime fans, only
one of which is the epitome of Luser Evil that he thinks all anime fans are.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Well, a small part of it. The same way similar depictions describe
general SF, Trek, Doctor Who, Lord of the Rings, RPG, etc., fandoms.
All fandoms have Totul Loooozers. But that really doesn't represent the
vast majority of fandom.
No, your repeated delusional rantings that it does won't change that fact.
>
> Is it usual that female fans wear elf-ears at anime club meetings?
>
It doesn't matter what they wear as long as they're hot, right?
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Basically describes the anime fandom perfectly.
>
> Is it usual that female fans wear elf-ears at anime club meetings?
>
She's not wearing it, per se. ^_^
Laters. =)
Stan
--
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/ _ | |/ LostRune+sig [at] UofR [dot] net
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Invid Fan
<ne...@yhsg3.invalid> wrote:
> darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Basically describes the anime fandom perfectly.
>
> Is it usual that female fans wear elf-ears at anime club meetings?
>
I'm reminded of the heavy metal group 'Battlelore', which dresses up on
stage and only sings about Lord of the Rings (and despite the geek
factor actually puts out fun albums). When mentioning changes the band
was making, the one guy made sure to point out that the female lead
singer would STILL be wearing the elf-ears so fans need not worry about
that :)
--
Chris Mack *quote under construction*
'Invid Fan'
Megane
Arne Luft <ne...@yhsg3.invalid> wrote:
> darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >Basically describes the anime fandom perfectly.
>
> Is it usual that female fans wear elf-ears at anime club meetings?
Not that I've ever seen. They wear cat ears.
Antonio E. Gonzalez
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>Travers Naran wrote:
>> http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/images/cms/anime-news-nina/22407/comic-24.jpg
>>
>>
>
> Of course, the problem here is that Dorkstarky will take the ranting
>loser to be "The Anime Fan", where the comic depicts 4 anime fans, only
>one of which is the epitome of Luser Evil that he thinks all anime fans are.
Ol' Darky's going off the deep end now, apparently hearing stuff
from a friend of a friend of an aquaintance in a forum, and oh so sure
*this* time he got it right! I'm curious as to why he has such
hate-on for ADV; maybe they turned him down for a job? We know what
happened when Debbie Gibson didn't give him time of day!
Then there's his other thing for Cruchyroll; it's like he never
heard of Napster, and how they went legit . . .
--
- ReFlex 76
- "Let's beat the terrorists with our most powerful weapon . . . hot
girl-on-girl action!"
- "The difference between young and old is the difference between
looking forward to your next birthday, and dreading it!"
- Jesus Christ - The original hippie!
<http://reflex76.blogspot.com/>
<http://www.blogger.com/profile/07245047157197572936>
Katana > Chain Saw > Baseball Bat > Hammer
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 09:21:51 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> Travers Naran wrote:
>>> http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/images/cms/anime-news-nina/22407/comic-24.jpg
>>>
>>>
>> Of course, the problem here is that Dorkstarky will take the ranting
>> loser to be "The Anime Fan", where the comic depicts 4 anime fans, only
>> one of which is the epitome of Luser Evil that he thinks all anime fans are.
>
> Ol' Darky's going off the deep end now, apparently hearing stuff
> from a friend of a friend of an aquaintance in a forum, and oh so sure
> *this* time he got it right! I'm curious as to why he has such
> hate-on for ADV; maybe they turned him down for a job? We know what
> happened when Debbie Gibson didn't give him time of day!
>
> Then there's his other thing for Cruchyroll; it's like he never
> heard of Napster, and how they went legit . . .
Yep.
Or his "model" of economics about "people being paid for the work
they've done", when the people making the anime HAVE all been paid --
often before the anime even airs. It's paid for by the advertisers.
Or the other part, where he doesn't see that downloading -- while
illegal -- is quite functionally different from stealing physical DVDs.
Or, really, the entire thing with him predicting "death of the anime
industry", when HIS OWN NUMBERS show that the INDUSTRY will survive just
fine. They'll just change revenue models.
Blade
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:g4t353$1s4$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
> Antonio E. Gonzalez wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 09:21:51 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Travers Naran wrote:
>>>> http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/images/cms/anime-news-nina/22407/comic-24.jpg
>>>>
>>> Of course, the problem here is that Dorkstarky will take the ranting
>>> loser to be "The Anime Fan", where the comic depicts 4 anime fans, only
>>> one of which is the epitome of Luser Evil that he thinks all anime fans
>>> are.
>>
>> Ol' Darky's going off the deep end now, apparently hearing stuff
>> from a friend of a friend of an aquaintance in a forum, and oh so sure
>> *this* time he got it right! I'm curious as to why he has such
>> hate-on for ADV; maybe they turned him down for a job? We know what
>> happened when Debbie Gibson didn't give him time of day!
>>
>> Then there's his other thing for Cruchyroll; it's like he never
>> heard of Napster, and how they went legit . . .
That doesn't make what Napster did right. They just had a brand name
worthwhile enough to let them get away with it.
> Yep.
>
> Or his "model" of economics about "people being paid for the work they've
> done", when the people making the anime HAVE all been paid --
> often before the anime even airs. It's paid for by the advertisers.
And if revenues drop like a rock, that won't happen anymore. Let us not be
deliberately obtuse. Anime is not a gloriously high-margin business.
> Or the other part, where he doesn't see that downloading -- while
> illegal -- is quite functionally different from stealing physical DVDs.
Yes. For instance, companies tend to be insured against theft, whereas
unsold DVDs continue to cost them money through taking up valuable warehouse
space.
That's about as germaine to the point as any other difference.
> Or, really, the entire thing with him predicting "death of the anime
> industry", when HIS OWN NUMBERS show that the INDUSTRY will survive just
> fine. They'll just change revenue models.
Perhaps you'll be just fine with going back to a circa 1995 model (in terms
of amount of licenses and relative penetration of non-TV series), then? I
mean, the industry was "alive" then, so that counts as "surviving".
Or perhaps going to a "dub-only-if-it-airs-on-TV' model, as some have been
suggesting in these threads. Sure, 90% of the anime audience only watches
dubs, so that is basically tantamount to saying the industry is dead for
titles that aren't massively popular, but hey, who cares about stuff that
isn't good enough to air on American TV, am I right?
-
Blade
Rob Kelk
wrote:
<snip>
>Or perhaps going to a "dub-only-if-it-airs-on-TV' model, as some have been
>suggesting in these threads. Sure, 90% of the anime audience only watches
>dubs,
If that number is still accurate, then I must be living in a statistical
anomoly. Of all the people I know personally who watch anime, the
people I correspond with who watch anime, the people in this newsgroup
who've expressed an opinion, the people on various webfora I read who've
mentioned they watch anime on TV or DVD, and the people I've overheard
talking at the local anime store, only *one* insists on dubs. (That one
is you, Blade...)
<snip>
Anybody have any recent numbers regarding subs vs. dubs?
Blade
"Rob Kelk" <rob...@deadspam.com> wrote in message
news:487226fd...@news.individual.net...
The answer remains what the answer has always been:
The vast majority of the people who watch anime are kids and (for lack of a
better term) 'casual' and 'series' fans. They don't read USENET newsgroups
about it, they probably don't go to conventions or cosplay, they don't
attend anime clubs - they are not, in other words, the die-hard nerds that
are the majority of the population of this group and whom I know personally.
They like anime (usually just a few anime) and they buy them or watch them
on TV or both, generally speaking.
The anime audience hasn't magically changed since dubbed Slayers outsold
subbed Slayers 10 to 1; in fact, the preponderance of anime on TV now has
probably skewed the percentages even further towards dubs. It is just a
different audience than the so-called "smart" audience that is largely
represented here. Observe, for instance, the lack of people talking here
about the ending on Inuyasha with the appreciation of fans of the whole
series who bought every Viz volume of the anime. In fact, I don't know a
single big Inuyasha fan who did that. Yet, a lot of people did, because Viz
made mad money on it.
If dubs didn't make money, the companies would not make them; dubs certainly
cost quite a bit of money. Most people just don't like subtitles. My reasons
for preferring (I do not insist on dubs; in fact, there's a few series I
prefer not to watch dubbed, as you really ought to know) dubs are different,
but then, I'm not in that section of the audience.
-
Blade
Travers Naran
>> Anybody have any recent numbers regarding subs vs. dubs?
>
> The answer remains what the answer has always been:
>
> The vast majority of the people who watch anime are kids and (for lack of a
> better term) 'casual' and 'series' fans. They don't read USENET newsgroups
> about it, they probably don't go to conventions or cosplay, they don't
> attend anime clubs - they are not, in other words, the die-hard nerds that
> are the majority of the population of this group and whom I know personally.
> They like anime (usually just a few anime) and they buy them or watch them
> on TV or both, generally speaking.
And the huge number who are NOT buying anime but watching fansubs?
While I agree dubs are popular, I'm not convinced it's the 90% like the
old days.
198 26% demand sub only
308 40% prefer subs but tolerate dubs
160 21% have no preference
104 13% prefer dubs but tolerate subs
5 1% demand dub only
1 0% blank
So "sub only" + "prefer subs" = 66%. And that's a self-selecting sample
from Ru's Anime Fan Survey:
http://members.shaw.ca/ru.igarashi/Surveys/fans/results.html
Also, didn't subs used to be at least 50% more expensive than dubs? I
would think if you're forced to chose, it's a no-brainer if you're not
picky.
> If dubs didn't make money, the companies would not make them; dubs certainly
> cost quite a bit of money. Most people just don't like subtitles. My reasons
> for preferring (I do not insist on dubs; in fact, there's a few series I
> prefer not to watch dubbed, as you really ought to know) dubs are different,
> but then, I'm not in that section of the audience.
Good logic, but the evidence is shakey. According to the industry,
they're not making their money on many series anymore even though they
are super popular on P2P, YouTube and other streaming sites which are
sub-only. As I've argued with Darkstar, I don't believe dubs are going
away, but it may become a smaller market--right sized to the paying
customer.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
Ironically, if anything, the casual fans tend to be ones who pay for DVDs
(well, save for ones who just watch it on TV like general TV watchers).
Casual fans won't know fansubs or even where or how to watch 'em.
>
> If dubs didn't make money, the companies would not make them; dubs certainly
> cost quite a bit of money. Most people just don't like subtitles. My reasons
> for preferring (I do not insist on dubs; in fact, there's a few series I
> prefer not to watch dubbed, as you really ought to know) dubs are different,
> but then, I'm not in that section of the audience.
>
Because you watch 'em with other people not for yourself?
Invid Fan
<tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And the huge number who are NOT buying anime but watching fansubs?
They're not buying so aren't the current anime market and should be
ignored.
> While I agree dubs are popular, I'm not convinced it's the 90% like the
> old days.
>
> 198 26% demand sub only
> 308 40% prefer subs but tolerate dubs
> 160 21% have no preference
> 104 13% prefer dubs but tolerate subs
> 5 1% demand dub only
> 1 0% blank
>
> So "sub only" + "prefer subs" = 66%. And that's a self-selecting sample
> from Ru's Anime Fan Survey:
> http://members.shaw.ca/ru.igarashi/Surveys/fans/results.html
>
Exactly, it's self-selecting. It's like asking people who call into a
sports radio show a question, and thinking the answers apply to the
general public at large.
> Also, didn't subs used to be at least 50% more expensive than dubs? I
> would think if you're forced to chose, it's a no-brainer if you're not
> picky.
>
No, they were $5 more expensive, an artifact of when dub-only
Streamline charged $30 for a movie and sub-only AnimEigo and others
charged $35. When other companies started dubbing, they had to match
the lower Streamline prices. This is what made the Slayers experiment
so interesting, in that they sold both for the exact same price and
dubs won 9-1.
Farix
> Blade wrote:
>>> Anybody have any recent numbers regarding subs vs. dubs?
>>
>> The answer remains what the answer has always been:
>>
>> The vast majority of the people who watch anime are kids and (for lack
>> of a better term) 'casual' and 'series' fans. They don't read USENET
>> newsgroups about it, they probably don't go to conventions or cosplay,
>> they don't attend anime clubs - they are not, in other words, the
>> die-hard nerds that are the majority of the population of this group
>> and whom I know personally. They like anime (usually just a few anime)
>> and they buy them or watch them on TV or both, generally speaking.
>
> And the huge number who are NOT buying anime but watching fansubs?
And just how many of them are there in comparison to the rest of the
market? And why are then not buying? The simple fact is that we just
don't have any data on this.
> While
> I agree dubs are popular, I'm not convinced it's the 90% like the old days.
>
> 198 26% demand sub only
> 308 40% prefer subs but tolerate dubs
> 160 21% have no preference
> 104 13% prefer dubs but tolerate subs
> 5 1% demand dub only
> 1 0% blank
>
> So "sub only" + "prefer subs" = 66%. And that's a self-selecting sample
> from Ru's Anime Fan Survey:
> http://members.shaw.ca/ru.igarashi/Surveys/fans/results.html
And you just named the the main problem with the statistics from Ru's
survey. The survey is self-selecting and has a systemic bias towards the
more fervent fans. Casual fans, which still make up the majority of the
anime market, isn't going to fill out a lengthy fan survey, that is if
they ever run across it.
> Also, didn't subs used to be at least 50% more expensive than dubs? I
> would think if you're forced to chose, it's a no-brainer if you're not
> picky.
More like $5 to $10 at most. However, if companies go sub-only and don't
dramatically lower the price, then they are only hurting themselves.
Otherwise, there is no point in buying the DVDs if they remain at ~$30
price point because you are ultimately paying more for less.
Farix
Blade
"Travers Naran" <tna...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:R7rck.2521$1o6.196@edtnps83...
> Blade wrote:
>>> Anybody have any recent numbers regarding subs vs. dubs?
>>
>> The answer remains what the answer has always been:
>>
>> The vast majority of the people who watch anime are kids and (for lack of
>> a better term) 'casual' and 'series' fans. They don't read USENET
>> newsgroups about it, they probably don't go to conventions or cosplay,
>> they don't attend anime clubs - they are not, in other words, the
>> die-hard nerds that are the majority of the population of this group and
>> whom I know personally. They like anime (usually just a few anime) and
>> they buy them or watch them on TV or both, generally speaking.
>
> And the huge number who are NOT buying anime but watching fansubs?
That number is tiny compared to the actual size of anime fandom.
> While I agree dubs are popular, I'm not convinced it's the 90% like the
> old days.
>
> 198 26% demand sub only
> 308 40% prefer subs but tolerate dubs
> 160 21% have no preference
> 104 13% prefer dubs but tolerate subs
> 5 1% demand dub only
> 1 0% blank
>
> So "sub only" + "prefer subs" = 66%. And that's a self-selecting sample
> from Ru's Anime Fan Survey:
> http://members.shaw.ca/ru.igarashi/Surveys/fans/results.html
Ru's survey takes an enormous time to fill out and is known largely to this
newsgroup and whoever finds his page (I believe he advertises on a couple of
web forums now, too). I do not take it as a representative sample of anime
fandom. At all.
> Also, didn't subs used to be at least 50% more expensive than dubs? I
> would think if you're forced to chose, it's a no-brainer if you're not
> picky.
No, they used to be about $5 more expensive per $25-$35 videotape. The
well-known comment that dubbed Slayers outsold subbed Slayers 10 to 1 comes
from when Software Sculptors tried the experiment of putting them both out
at the exact same (rather cheap) price. So, when people had the exact same
price, they still preferred dubs by an overwhelming margin. I see no reason
to believe that has changed, or will change in the foreseeable future.
>> If dubs didn't make money, the companies would not make them; dubs
>> certainly cost quite a bit of money. Most people just don't like
>> subtitles. My reasons for preferring (I do not insist on dubs; in fact,
>> there's a few series I prefer not to watch dubbed, as you really ought to
>> know) dubs are different, but then, I'm not in that section of the
>> audience.
>
> Good logic, but the evidence is shakey. According to the industry,
> they're not making their money on many series anymore even though they are
> super popular on P2P, YouTube and other streaming sites which are
> sub-only. As I've argued with Darkstar, I don't believe dubs are going
> away, but it may become a smaller market--right sized to the paying
> customer.
It is nothing new at all that many anime don't make money (look at the
dismal success of UY in both anime and manga format, and that goes back to
the 90s). It doesn't have much to do with fansub kiddies, either. I despise
them on their own merits, not because I seriously think they're wrecking the
industry by themselves. Piracy is a major problem for anime, no doubt,
because it does have such tiny margins, but I would say the glutting of the
market has more to do with the current financial troubles various companies
are having. Anime fandom simply didn't expand as fast as anime licenses did.
-
Blade
Blade
"S.t.A.n.L.e.E" <LostRu...@UofR.SlamSpam.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.08...@uofr.net...
> Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:56am-0400, Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com>:
>> The vast majority of the people who watch anime are kids and (for lack of
>> a
>> better term) 'casual' and 'series' fans. They don't read USENET
>> newsgroups
>> about it, they probably don't go to conventions or cosplay, they don't
>> attend anime clubs - they are not, in other words, the die-hard nerds
>> that
>> are the majority of the population of this group and whom I know
>> personally.
>> They like anime (usually just a few anime) and they buy them or watch
>> them
>> on TV or both, generally speaking.
>>
>> The anime audience hasn't magically changed since dubbed Slayers outsold
>> subbed Slayers 10 to 1; in fact, the preponderance of anime on TV now has
>>
>
> Ironically, if anything, the casual fans tend to be ones who pay for DVDs
> (well, save for ones who just watch it on TV like general TV watchers).
> Casual fans won't know fansubs or even where or how to watch 'em.
Yup. Or they'll watch on, say, Youtube, which is unreliable and terrible
quality, thereby making physical media an attractive option. People like
collecting things, and they like watching on their TVs; the explosion in
popularity of TV boxsets in the last several years should be a strong
indication (one of many) that the age of physical media is far from over.
>> If dubs didn't make money, the companies would not make them; dubs
>> certainly
>> cost quite a bit of money. Most people just don't like subtitles. My
>> reasons
>> for preferring (I do not insist on dubs; in fact, there's a few series I
>> prefer not to watch dubbed, as you really ought to know) dubs are
>> different,
>> but then, I'm not in that section of the audience.
>>
> Because you watch 'em with other people not for yourself?
Not really; if anything, that'd encourage me to watch more subs, since I
know mostly nerdy anime fans. ;p No, my preference for dubs is based on the
fact that I (as a snobby part-time actor) think English dub VAs are by and
large better actors who are more dedicated to their craft than Japanese
ones, and I thus tend to prefer their performances. Now, I have some
exceptions to that rule (although often dubs I don't like I blame more on
the director than the actors), but by and large I do prefer dubs, sometimes
(but not always) to the point of being unwilling to watch the subtitled
version(I liked both versions of Elfen Lied fine, but I wouldn't watch Magic
User's Club subbed unless absolutely forced to). I don't believe most people
are really comparing the two on that level; most dub fans just don't like
subtitles, and most subtitle fans offer "purity of the original vision" and
similar arguments for why they prefer subs (with, again, some exceptions,
YMMV, etc, etc.).
-
Blade
selaboc
> Blade wrote:
> >> Anybody have any recent numbers regarding subs vs. dubs?
>
> > The answer remains what the answer has always been:
>
> > better term) 'casual' and 'series' fans. They don't read USENET newsgroups
> > about it, they probably don't go to conventions or cosplay, they don't
> > attend anime clubs - they are not, in other words, the die-hard nerds that
> > are the majority of the population of this group and whom I know personally.
> > They like anime (usually just a few anime) and they buy them or watch them
> > on TV or both, generally speaking.
>
A drop in the bucket compared to the even huger number who are NOT
buying anime but watching it dubbed on TV. Of course, from a business
sense, the first group (watching don't buy but fansubs) is irrelevent.
They are not your customers and never will be, whereas the second
group are indirectly customers as their viewing is paid for by the
network (and it's advertisers) airing the dubbed anime.
> While I agree dubs are popular, I'm not convinced it's the 90% like the
> old days.
>
> 198 26% demand sub only
> 308 40% prefer subs but tolerate dubs
> 160 21% have no preference
> 104 13% prefer dubs but tolerate subs
> 5 1% demand dub only
> 1 0% blank
>
> So "sub only" + "prefer subs" = 66%. And that's a self-selecting sample
> from Ru's Anime Fan Survey:http://members.shaw.ca/ru.igarashi/Surveys/fans/results.html
And, as others have pointed out the big problem with that is that it
*IS* a self-selecting sample of the hard-core fans. The much larger
portion of fandom, know as the casual fan, is totally unrepresented in
that sample.
> Also, didn't subs used to be at least 50% more expensive than dubs? I
> would think if you're forced to chose, it's a no-brainer if you're not
> picky.
IIRC it was about $5 difference, expect in the case of Slayers where
they tried selling both at the same price. Need I repeat what the
results of that was? :)
Ru Igarashi
> On Jul 7, 12:04?pm, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > While I agree dubs are popular, I'm not convinced it's the 90% like the
> > old days.
> >
> > ? ?198 ?26% demand sub only
> > ? ?308 ?40% prefer subs but tolerate dubs
> > ? ?160 ?21% have no preference
> > ? ?104 ?13% prefer dubs but tolerate subs
> > ? ? ?5 ? 1% demand dub only
> > ? ? ?1 ? 0% blank
> >
> > So "sub only" + "prefer subs" = 66%. ?And that's a self-selecting sample
> > from Ru's Anime Fan Survey:http://members.shaw.ca/ru.igarashi/Surveys/fans/results.html
> And, as others have pointed out the big problem with that is that it
> *IS* a self-selecting sample of the hard-core fans. The much larger
> portion of fandom, know as the casual fan, is totally unrepresented in
> that sample.
I even point that out myself in my summaries. The more
telling data are the trends, which is what I'm ultimately
after. Web-based fora are a bit more dub-tolerant than
the usenet ones used to be. Taken on it's own, that
suggests the wider audience is even more dub tolerant,
if you assume that networked fans are more saavy than
the average person (in this case, due to education and
exposure to fansubs - I have annecdotal data where
dub-only fans became sub fans due to repeated fansub
viewing).
Hmm, there's a survey question there. Speaking of
which, it's time for me to prep for the next survey,
isn't it?
ru
--
Maintainer of the Anime Music FAQ for REC.ARTS.ANIME.*
http://members.shaw.ca/ru.igarashi/FAQS/raa_music/
and Ru's Annual Anime Fan Survey
http://members.shaw.ca/ru.igarashi/Surveys/fans/
darkst...@gmail.com
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in messagenews:g4t353$1s4$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Antonio E. Gonzalez wrote:
> >> Ol' Darky's going off the deep end now, apparently hearing stuff
> >> from a friend of a friend of an aquaintance in a forum, and oh so sure
> >> *this* time he got it right! I'm curious as to why he has such
> >> hate-on for ADV; maybe they turned him down for a job? We know what
> >> happened when Debbie Gibson didn't give him time of day!
Ummm, nice try. Not to say that there wasn't a timeframe that I might
not have wanted to work for ADV, but if things had gotten that far,
I'd be in a Texas prison for life.
And I'd suggest hearily you expand your reading about anime past RAAM.
> >> Then there's his other thing for Cruchyroll; it's like he never
> >> heard of Napster, and how they went legit . . .
They went legit (Napster) because the RIAA SUED THE OLD ONE OUT OF
EXISTENCE AND TOOK IT.
Don't think I never heard of it. They sued the fuck out of the owners
and seized the property and made it their own.
Perhaps, if the anime industry had done the same when it had the
chance, it might've had a chance of survival.
(So I guess this AX _was_ a disaster -- but not the one I imagined.)
> That doesn't make what Napster did right. They just had a brand name
> worthwhile enough to let them get away with it.
It really makes one wonder, though, what people consider "right" -- I
mean, look at the cartoon Travers linked to to start this thread and
tell me straight-faced that isn't the attitude of the vast super-
majority of anime fans (that you're an idiot to pay one dime for
this).
> > Yep.
>
> > Or his "model" of economics about "people being paid for the work they've
> > done", when the people making the anime HAVE all been paid --
> > often before the anime even airs. It's paid for by the advertisers.
One, anime does not pay well, either over here or in Japan. If people
didn't steal the content left and right, maybe these people would get
paid what they're worth rather than have every corner cut on them.
So that's why JAniCA was created (The Japan Animation Creators
Association).
(http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-06-06/japan-animator-labor-
group-legally-incorporates)
Two, you're full of shit when you say the anime is paid for before it
airs -- again, unlike American programming, which is paid for by the
networks (network programming), the Japanese companies are still
trying to make their money back -- through DVD and merchandise sales
-- they paid to create the show and put it on the air.
> And if revenues drop like a rock, that won't happen anymore. Let us not be
> deliberately obtuse. Anime is not a gloriously high-margin business.
Sea Wasp IS deliberately obtuse, Blade, as are most anime fans -- they
need to be that way to continue believing that the industry is openly
defrauding them and that they are rolling in money.
And revenues (at the least in R1 -- and if they didn't need us, they'd
be out of their minds coming to us) are falling like a rock.
> > Or the other part, where he doesn't see that downloading -- while
> > illegal -- is quite functionally different from stealing physical DVDs.
No it's not. The product is the animation -- the DVD only provides
the vehicle that we gain access to said information.
> Yes. For instance, companies tend to be insured against theft, whereas
> unsold DVDs continue to cost them money through taking up valuable warehouse
> space.
The only way I could even see Sea Wasp's point is for SW to come out
and say that the animation product IS worthless, and the animation
isn't even the product.
It would make no material difference, at the end of the day, how the
material is stolen -- the material is _STOLEN_, and the fact remains
that, for the animation itself to have any value whatsoever, the
material has to be only viewed by those who have gained some form of
license to do so. Is that so hard to understand?
(What am I saying?? That's why the anime industry is dead.)
> > Or, really, the entire thing with him predicting "death of the anime
> > industry", when HIS OWN NUMBERS show that the INDUSTRY will survive just
> > fine. They'll just change revenue models.
Uhhhh, no.
It's this delusion that is why I get so sickened (literally!!) by most
anime fans today.
You haven't been catching the death of Geneon, the death of BVUSA, the
death of ADV, the insolvency of at least one major Japanese studio,
etc. etc. etc. and on and on and on.
And now the full-scale legitimacy of a pirate group who should be in
prison en masse and its assets seized (the latter, like the old
Napster was)...
> Perhaps you'll be just fine with going back to a circa 1995 model (in terms
> of amount of licenses and relative penetration of non-TV series), then? I
> mean, the industry was "alive" then, so that counts as "surviving".
Precisely, Blade.
That's what we're going back to. Non-TV (as in TV over here, not in
Japan) will not be dubbed, and probably will not be even made
available on DVD. Licensures, for a lot of these series, will
probably become dependent on whether deals to put these series on
television can be made or not.
> Or perhaps going to a "dub-only-if-it-airs-on-TV' model, as some have been
> suggesting in these threads. Sure, 90% of the anime audience only watches
> dubs, so that is basically tantamount to saying the industry is dead for
> titles that aren't massively popular, but hey, who cares about stuff that
> isn't good enough to air on American TV, am I right?
Ding dong. *Blade's chair rises a foot.*
And here's something else which SW forgets: How many of those dubbed
popular series, really, exist?
I'd assert the number is under 15, probably under 10.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> >Or perhaps going to a "dub-only-if-it-airs-on-TV' model, as some have been
> >suggesting in these threads. Sure, 90% of the anime audience only watches
> >dubs,
>
> If that number is still accurate, then I must be living in a statistical
> anomoly. Of all the people I know personally who watch anime, the
> people I correspond with who watch anime, the people in this newsgroup
> who've expressed an opinion, the people on various webfora I read who've
> mentioned they watch anime on TV or DVD, and the people I've overheard
> talking at the local anime store, only *one* insists on dubs. (That one
> is you, Blade...)
I think he might be believing about the 90% if you take out all the
leeches and thieves and the like.
Of course, at that point, he'd be removing over 90% of the anime fans
out there.
Dubs -- don't -- sell. They've been trying to present this canard of
that the anime industry is driven by dubs, when, in fact, most anime
fans are used to (illegal) subs, and, given the choice, insist on
them, at least in the circles I've travelled.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> In article <R7rck.2521$1o6.196@edtnps83>, Travers Naran
>
> <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > And the huge number who are NOT buying anime but watching fansubs?
>
> They're not buying so aren't the current anime market and should be
> ignored.
Then how do you measure the current anime market? In fact, we are
seeing strong signals that the anime industry has in fact caved to
fansubbery and thievery and realizes that the "current anime market"
may no longer involve what it has for the last 15 or so years.
Fact is, that they haven't been ignored is the only damn reason you
don't see about 10 licenses a season -- total. (Those that can find
big American contracts.) Everything else is either movies or never
makes it over.
> > While I agree dubs are popular, I'm not convinced it's the 90% like the
> > old days.
It's not even close. MAYBE 10%, given this breakdown.
> > 198 26% demand sub only
> > 308 40% prefer subs but tolerate dubs
> > 160 21% have no preference
> > 104 13% prefer dubs but tolerate subs
> > 5 1% demand dub only
> > 1 0% blank
Notice another thing: 1/4 demand sub only. ONE PERCENT demand dub
only.
> Exactly, it's self-selecting. It's like asking people who call into a
> sports radio show a question, and thinking the answers apply to the
> general public at large.
Well, unless someone wants to do a more scientific poll, then that has
to be taken as such unless the callers are so full of it they get hung
up on -- especially on national shows like JT the Brick.
> > Also, didn't subs used to be at least 50% more expensive than dubs? I
> > would think if you're forced to chose, it's a no-brainer if you're not
> > picky.
>
> No, they were $5 more expensive, an artifact of when dub-only
> Streamline charged $30 for a movie and sub-only AnimEigo and others
> charged $35. When other companies started dubbing, they had to match
> the lower Streamline prices. This is what made the Slayers experiment
> so interesting, in that they sold both for the exact same price and
> dubs won 9-1.
Back with that Slayers experiment, yes...
Mike
Aje RavenStar
"Ru Igarashi" <ru.ig...@usask.ca> wrote in message
news:g4ttj2$p96$2...@webmail.usask.ca...
You might also ask such fans if there are particular reasons they begin
liking subs more, such as feeling the voice acting is superior, the dub
translation is poor compared to the sub translation it makes the story less
comprehensible, dub is poor compared to sub because of massive script
alteration, etc.
Rob Kelk
wrote:
Back in 1995, I would have agreed with you. But since then, there's
been widespread adoption of broadband Internet availability. That has
made feasable:
* Napster and its clones,
* YouTube and its clones,
* dedicated anime P2P tracker sites,
* iTunes Movie Store and its (largely-unsuccessful) clones, and
* streaming-video websites.
All of these skew the sub/dub numbers. I don't know how, or in which
direction. I suspect *nobody* knows how. But I'm willing to look at
numbers if anybody has them...
>The anime audience hasn't magically changed since dubbed Slayers outsold
>subbed Slayers 10 to 1; in fact, the preponderance of anime on TV now has
>probably skewed the percentages even further towards dubs. It is just a
>different audience than the so-called "smart" audience that is largely
>represented here. Observe, for instance, the lack of people talking here
>about the ending on Inuyasha with the appreciation of fans of the whole
>series who bought every Viz volume of the anime. In fact, I don't know a
>single big Inuyasha fan who did that. Yet, a lot of people did, because Viz
>made mad money on it.
>
>If dubs didn't make money, the companies would not make them; dubs certainly
>cost quite a bit of money. Most people just don't like subtitles. My reasons
>for preferring (I do not insist on dubs; in fact, there's a few series I
>prefer not to watch dubbed, as you really ought to know)
Yes, you have complained about the Utena dub in my presence. Sorry.
So I don't know anybody who insists on dubs...
> dubs are different,
>but then, I'm not in that section of the audience.
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
>> Or, really, the entire thing with him predicting "death of the anime
>> industry", when HIS OWN NUMBERS show that the INDUSTRY will survive just
>> fine. They'll just change revenue models.
>
> Perhaps you'll be just fine with going back to a circa 1995 model (in terms
> of amount of licenses and relative penetration of non-TV series), then? I
> mean, the industry was "alive" then, so that counts as "surviving".
Indeed, it was very much alive. Small, but alive, and much more
interesting to watch. And still quite a large, active industry in Japan,
the producer country.
Actually, if you want to go to the worst-case scenario, it'll become a
cottage industry, as the downloaders run out of new stuff, some of them
start figuring out how to actually animate stuff (which in 10 years will
be a LOT easier to do), and pretty soon you have self-produced anime
movies, series, etc., filling the demand, with the best of them getting
bought.
Animated Doujin market, in essence.
>
> Or perhaps going to a "dub-only-if-it-airs-on-TV' model, as some have been
> suggesting in these threads. Sure, 90% of the anime audience only watches
> dubs, so that is basically tantamount to saying the industry is dead for
> titles that aren't massively popular, but hey, who cares about stuff that
> isn't good enough to air on American TV, am I right?
No, who cares about stuff that DOES air on American TV? (Aside from
Discovery and History Channel stuff, the networks managed to jump the
shark on the only show I was actually watching in primetime last year)
At least, that does so with any celerity, rather than being brought on
years afterward in a grudging admission that "yeah, it made 400 million
in other countries, maybe it could make a buck here too"
Invid Fan
RavenStar <whine...@comcast.net> wrote:
Or if it makes them feel special and elite, as that WAS the case often
back in the day. Also ask the same question for those who like dubs
more, and those who watch both equally. I mostly watch dubs nowadays,
with it taking a rare bad one to send me to subtitles...
Ru Igarashi
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:56:54 -0400, "Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >The vast majority of the people who watch anime are kids and (for lack of a
> >better term) 'casual' and 'series' fans. They don't read USENET newsgroups
> >about it, they probably don't go to conventions or cosplay, they don't
> >attend anime clubs - they are not, in other words, the die-hard nerds that
> >are the majority of the population of this group and whom I know personally.
> >They like anime (usually just a few anime) and they buy them or watch them
> >on TV or both, generally speaking.
The thing is, a good number of these kids are turning into
die-hard fans, and they at least become strong fans pretty
fast after initial exposure to fansubs.
As for clubs, they don't need clubs. They have online
fora. Sure, they are missing the in-person contact that
you can get in clubs, but then that's one of the defining
characteristics of a nerd.
> Back in 1995, I would have agreed with you. But since then, there's
> been widespread adoption of broadband Internet availability. That has
> made feasable:
> * Napster and its clones,
> * YouTube and its clones,
> * dedicated anime P2P tracker sites,
> * iTunes Movie Store and its (largely-unsuccessful) clones, and
> * streaming-video websites.
> All of these skew the sub/dub numbers. I don't know how, or in which
> direction. I suspect *nobody* knows how. But I'm willing to look at
> numbers if anybody has them...
Sorry no numbers, but similar to what I said in another
message, my annecdotal data was with folks who started
out dub-only (fervent), started watching fansubs from
sites like YouTube because that was the only way to get
the shows of interest, got even more interested in other
shows (also fansubbed), and now lean towards subs.
These have tended to be kids whose initial exposure was
to translated manga or dubbed broadcasts, who then
discovered anime. They weren't anime fans, they were
fans of specific titles that then went on to become
anime fans. Time elapsed: about a year or two (max).
The sense I'm getting from kids is that they pursue
whatever they are interested in, and if there is a
steady supply of online fansubs, they will find it
and if subs is the only form they can get their fix in
(as opposed to dubs) they would rather learn to live
with subtitles and watch fansubs than do without it
at all. I suspect the dub numbers will always
outweigh the subs, but I don't think sub fans are
a dying breed, either. At least not until anime
releases become multilingual or simultaneous
internationally.
Invid Fan
<rob...@deadspam.com> wrote:
>
> So I don't know anybody who insists on dubs...
>
I do. Only if it's a case of there not being any possible way to make a
dub (Gunbuster, Macross Plus movie) will I now spring for a sub only
show. Orugss tv was an exception, as I'd been waiting for over a decade
to see the rest of it...
(I'n not even sure if I'd buy Votoms if it was first coming out now and
didn't have a dub. It would be much more re-watchable with one)
Invid Fan
> Perhaps you'll be just fine with going back to a circa 1995 model (in terms
> of amount of licenses and relative penetration of non-TV series), then? I
> mean, the industry was "alive" then, so that counts as "surviving".
>
If it contracts to that, so be it. Mind you, there's little coming out
now that appeals to me so I have no vested interest in current
conditions :)
Travers Naran
> No, they were $5 more expensive, an artifact of when dub-only
> Streamline charged $30 for a movie and sub-only AnimEigo and others
> charged $35. When other companies started dubbing, they had to match
> the lower Streamline prices. This is what made the Slayers experiment
> so interesting, in that they sold both for the exact same price and
> dubs won 9-1.
And HOW long ago was this? 1998.
TEN frakking years ago!!
10 years ago, music sales were $12 billion dollars. In 2008, it's $7.5
billion.[1]
10 years ago, the average home Internet connection was dial-up 14.4kbps.
10 years ago your HD was 6-8GB. Now it's in the 350GB-500Gb range.
You're going to bring up a flawed experiment using VHS sales from 10
years ago to talk about _now_? To quote the Trade Federation: "What are
you? Brain-dead?"
VHS sales were simple: it was either-or. You either had dub or sub,
maybe you bought both for twice the cost. More telling would be how
many legal viewers of anime watch dub only. Ru's survey is the only
answer we have -- I assume ADV and Funimation have better surveys but
they don't release them to the public. I can buy the idea that 10 years
ago, dub was king, but we are talking now.
Considering the INDUSTRY itself says they are losing sales to sub-only
FANSUBS (and I'm willing to take their word over anyone else's here),
the question that the vast majority of anime fans (and viewers) want
dubs seems... unlikely.
I am willing to buy the idea that the legal anime fan community has a
preference for dubs, and that's why I believe there will be a dub
industry, but the number of dub releases are going to SHRINK. At worst,
they might not release a series at all if there's no perceived market.
[1] http://76.74.24.142/81128FFD-028F-282E-1CE5-FDBF16A46388.pdf
Invid Fan
<tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Invid Fan wrote:
>
> > No, they were $5 more expensive, an artifact of when dub-only
> > Streamline charged $30 for a movie and sub-only AnimEigo and others
> > charged $35. When other companies started dubbing, they had to match
> > the lower Streamline prices. This is what made the Slayers experiment
> > so interesting, in that they sold both for the exact same price and
> > dubs won 9-1.
>
> And HOW long ago was this? 1998.
>
I was commenting more on the whole pricing thing, but feel free to rant
at me about other stuff :)
> TEN frakking years ago!!
>
> 10 years ago, music sales were $12 billion dollars. In 2008, it's $7.5
> billion.[1]
>
> 10 years ago, the average home Internet connection was dial-up 14.4kbps.
>
> 10 years ago your HD was 6-8GB. Now it's in the 350GB-500Gb range.
>
> You're going to bring up a flawed experiment using VHS sales from 10
> years ago to talk about _now_? To quote the Trade Federation: "What are
> you? Brain-dead?"
>
It was the last time people had to make a choice. A time when we were
in danger of losing Japanese language releases. Yes, times have
changed, and I WOULD be interested in new data.
> VHS sales were simple: it was either-or. You either had dub or sub,
> maybe you bought both for twice the cost. More telling would be how
> many legal viewers of anime watch dub only. Ru's survey is the only
> answer we have -- I assume ADV and Funimation have better surveys but
> they don't release them to the public. I can buy the idea that 10 years
> ago, dub was king, but we are talking now.
>
And I'm saying that his survey 10 years ago would have shown even fewer
dub buyers, despite what the actual sales data showed. Dub viewing
among diehard fans has increased, and I'm willing to grant sub watching
among "casual" fans may have also gone up. ADV and friends won't have
any real data until they do a split release (pointless), or release a
sub-only sequel to a dubbed show and compare.
> Considering the INDUSTRY itself says they are losing sales to sub-only
> FANSUBS (and I'm willing to take their word over anyone else's here),
> the question that the vast majority of anime fans (and viewers) want
> dubs seems... unlikely.
>
The vast number of anime viewers watch anime dubbed on tv. any sales or
download numbers are going to be much smaller by comparison.
> I am willing to buy the idea that the legal anime fan community has a
> preference for dubs, and that's why I believe there will be a dub
> industry, but the number of dub releases are going to SHRINK. At worst,
> they might not release a series at all if there's no perceived market.
>
Which has happened in the past, and will happen in the future. We get
some sub-only releases now.
8-Bit Star
> No, my preference for dubs is based on the
> fact that I (as a snobby part-time actor) think English dub VAs are by and
> large better actors who are more dedicated to their craft than Japanese
> ones, and I thus tend to prefer their performances.
That being said, if the dub isn't by Macek, it ain't worth watching ;).
Blade
> Blade wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
>
>>> Or, really, the entire thing with him predicting "death of the anime
>>> industry", when HIS OWN NUMBERS show that the INDUSTRY will survive just
>>> fine. They'll just change revenue models.
>>
>> Perhaps you'll be just fine with going back to a circa 1995 model (in
>> terms of amount of licenses and relative penetration of non-TV series),
>> then? I mean, the industry was "alive" then, so that counts as
>> "surviving".
>
> Indeed, it was very much alive. Small, but alive, and much more
> interesting to watch. And still quite a large, active industry in Japan,
> the producer country.
Yes, I'm aware some fans have that opinion. I find it contemptible. On what
justification do you find it a positive thing to severely restrict the
options of other people to watch anime and read manga? In what way is that
better for anybody?
> Actually, if you want to go to the worst-case scenario, it'll become a
> cottage industry, as the downloaders run out of new stuff, some of them
> start figuring out how to actually animate stuff (which in 10 years will
> be a LOT easier to do), and pretty soon you have self-produced anime
> movies, series, etc., filling the demand, with the best of them getting
> bought.
>
> Animated Doujin market, in essence.
Ugh. Just... ugh. No thank you, I would prefer to have access to the work of
professionals than to have my purchasing options be limited to veterans of
Deviantart and webcomics.
>> Or perhaps going to a "dub-only-if-it-airs-on-TV' model, as some have
>> been suggesting in these threads. Sure, 90% of the anime audience only
>> watches dubs, so that is basically tantamount to saying the industry is
>> dead for titles that aren't massively popular, but hey, who cares about
>> stuff that isn't good enough to air on American TV, am I right?
>
> No, who cares about stuff that DOES air on American TV? (Aside from
> Discovery and History Channel stuff, the networks managed to jump the
> shark on the only show I was actually watching in primetime last year) At
> least, that does so with any celerity, rather than being brought on years
> afterward in a grudging admission that "yeah, it made 400 million in other
> countries, maybe it could make a buck here too"
It is the Holy Grail of sales and merchandising options to get anime on TV;
that's why every company tries to do it and cherishes their licenses which
are TV-friendly. This is all but ridiculously self-evident.
-
Blade
Blade
> Invid Fan wrote:
>
>> No, they were $5 more expensive, an artifact of when dub-only
>> Streamline charged $30 for a movie and sub-only AnimEigo and others
>> charged $35. When other companies started dubbing, they had to match
>> the lower Streamline prices. This is what made the Slayers experiment
>> so interesting, in that they sold both for the exact same price and
>> dubs won 9-1.
>
> And HOW long ago was this? 1998.
>
> TEN frakking years ago!!
You brought up the VHS topic first.
> You're going to bring up a flawed experiment using VHS sales from 10 years
> ago to talk about _now_? To quote the Trade Federation: "What are you?
> Brain-dead?"
Actually, you did. So I guess you're brain-dead.
> VHS sales were simple: it was either-or. You either had dub or sub, maybe
> you bought both for twice the cost. More telling would be how many legal
> viewers of anime watch dub only. Ru's survey is the only answer we
> have -- I assume ADV and Funimation have better surveys but they don't
> release them to the public. I can buy the idea that 10 years ago, dub was
> king, but we are talking now.
And now, TV is king. Everything on TV is dubbed. Do the math. If you don't
like the math, kindly produce actual evidence to support your assertions.
Company practice and the only pieces of real-world sales performance
indicate that dubs were not only more popular, but vastly more popular. Your
move.
(It is also quite obviously the case using the same anecdotal evidence you
find so compelling that dubs are far more popular with serious anime fans
than they were ten years ago. There's large fan communities around popular
dub actors like Crispin Freeman, popular dub actors get large audiences at
anime conventions, dvds include dub-only extras like interviews, commentary
tracks and outtakes, and it is a generally though not unanimously held view
that dubs are better than they were in the 90s. So who says the percentages
aren't even greater now, with only old die-hards still insisting on subs?)
> Considering the INDUSTRY itself says they are losing sales to sub-only
> FANSUBS (and I'm willing to take their word over anyone else's here), the
> question that the vast majority of anime fans (and viewers) want dubs
> seems... unlikely.
You don't understand economics. Losing 10% of sales is a massive blow to any
business. Losing 10% of sales in a small-margin business like anime can be
fatal (the devaluation of the American dollar would have also hurt things).
It doesn't require 50% of the audience to love subs. In fact, were it
numbers like that that had stopped buying, we'd probably actually be seeing
the troll's predictions coming true and the entire industry imploding,
rather than a few companies in trouble.
-
Blade
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
> news:g4u7b9$ueh$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>> Blade wrote:
>>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
>>>> Or, really, the entire thing with him predicting "death of the anime
>>>> industry", when HIS OWN NUMBERS show that the INDUSTRY will survive just
>>>> fine. They'll just change revenue models.
>>> Perhaps you'll be just fine with going back to a circa 1995 model (in
>>> terms of amount of licenses and relative penetration of non-TV series),
>>> then? I mean, the industry was "alive" then, so that counts as
>>> "surviving".
>> Indeed, it was very much alive. Small, but alive, and much more
>> interesting to watch. And still quite a large, active industry in Japan,
>> the producer country.
>
> Yes, I'm aware some fans have that opinion. I find it contemptible. On what
> justification do you find it a positive thing to severely restrict the
> options of other people to watch anime and read manga?
I'm not restricting anyone's options.
I'm just saying that "death of an industry" requires DEATH, not
readjustment, shrinkage, retargeting, etc.
Death is what happened to... well, buggy-whip companies. Someone out
there may still make a few of those, but it's handwork and nothing like
an industry.
>
>> Actually, if you want to go to the worst-case scenario, it'll become a
>> cottage industry, as the downloaders run out of new stuff, some of them
>> start figuring out how to actually animate stuff (which in 10 years will
>> be a LOT easier to do), and pretty soon you have self-produced anime
>> movies, series, etc., filling the demand, with the best of them getting
>> bought.
>>
>> Animated Doujin market, in essence.
>
> Ugh. Just... ugh. No thank you, I would prefer to have access to the work of
> professionals than to have my purchasing options be limited to veterans of
> Deviantart and webcomics.
Of course, some of the Doujin are as good or better than the originals.
Which is why the Japanese companies have traditionally watched the
Doujin market for new potential talent.
In this model, it'd be word of mouth, street-performer protocol, or
voluntary organizations, then eventually -- I'd guess -- electronic
publishing houses organized more like book publishers than current media.
>
>>> Or perhaps going to a "dub-only-if-it-airs-on-TV' model, as some have
>>> been suggesting in these threads. Sure, 90% of the anime audience only
>>> watches dubs, so that is basically tantamount to saying the industry is
>>> dead for titles that aren't massively popular, but hey, who cares about
>>> stuff that isn't good enough to air on American TV, am I right?
>> No, who cares about stuff that DOES air on American TV? (Aside from
>> Discovery and History Channel stuff, the networks managed to jump the
>> shark on the only show I was actually watching in primetime last year) At
>> least, that does so with any celerity, rather than being brought on years
>> afterward in a grudging admission that "yeah, it made 400 million in other
>> countries, maybe it could make a buck here too"
>
> It is the Holy Grail of sales and merchandising options to get anime on TV;
> that's why every company tries to do it and cherishes their licenses which
> are TV-friendly. This is all but ridiculously self-evident.
Of course it is. That's how you're going to make money on it. And if I
were running an anime company, it's what I'd be going for.
Doesn't mean that *I* want to watch it.
And what I want to watch is of course my only criterion for whether I
care whether something is on TV. As maybe 1 in 100, or fewer, shows can
make it into that category, it's quite possible for the market to
implode drastically and, if I get lucky, leave me completely unaffected.
If I'm unlucky, I'll lose that one or two series a decade that I care
about.
Blade
> Blade wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
>> news:g4u7b9$ueh$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>> Blade wrote:
>>>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
>>>>> Or, really, the entire thing with him predicting "death of the anime
>>>>> industry", when HIS OWN NUMBERS show that the INDUSTRY will survive
>>>>> just fine. They'll just change revenue models.
>>>> Perhaps you'll be just fine with going back to a circa 1995 model (in
>>>> terms of amount of licenses and relative penetration of non-TV series),
>>>> then? I mean, the industry was "alive" then, so that counts as
>>>> "surviving".
>>> Indeed, it was very much alive. Small, but alive, and much more
>>> interesting to watch. And still quite a large, active industry in Japan,
>>> the producer country.
>>
>> Yes, I'm aware some fans have that opinion. I find it contemptible. On
>> what justification do you find it a positive thing to severely restrict
>> the options of other people to watch anime and read manga?
>
> I'm not restricting anyone's options.
You're merely approving of it. Which is exactly what I said.
> I'm just saying that "death of an industry" requires DEATH, not
> readjustment, shrinkage, retargeting, etc.
As I said above, yes, the industry was "alive", so that counts as surviving.
The fact it's an enormous step backward cannot be ignored. I don't want that
to happen.
>>> Actually, if you want to go to the worst-case scenario, it'll become a
>>> cottage industry, as the downloaders run out of new stuff, some of them
>>> start figuring out how to actually animate stuff (which in 10 years will
>>> be a LOT easier to do), and pretty soon you have self-produced anime
>>> movies, series, etc., filling the demand, with the best of them getting
>>> bought.
>>>
>>> Animated Doujin market, in essence.
>>
>> Ugh. Just... ugh. No thank you, I would prefer to have access to the work
>> of professionals than to have my purchasing options be limited to
>> veterans of Deviantart and webcomics.
>
> Of course, some of the Doujin are as good or better than the originals.
Yes, and that's why those people end up making money. But putting the
professionals out of business to make room for the hobbyists and amateurs is
not going to improve the quality of the product. Quite to the contrary.
> Which is why the Japanese companies have traditionally watched the Doujin
> market for new potential talent.
And yet, for every doujin artist made good, there are hundreds that don't.
And with good reason.
>> It is the Holy Grail of sales and merchandising options to get anime on
>> TV; that's why every company tries to do it and cherishes their licenses
>> which are TV-friendly. This is all but ridiculously self-evident.
>
> Of course it is. That's how you're going to make money on it. And if I
> were running an anime company, it's what I'd be going for.
>
> Doesn't mean that *I* want to watch it.
Yes, and I probably don't want to watch what you do. The difference between
us, apparently, is I would still much rather have it out there and
available.
> And what I want to watch is of course my only criterion for whether I care
> whether something is on TV. As maybe 1 in 100, or fewer, shows can make it
> into that category, it's quite possible for the market to implode
> drastically and, if I get lucky, leave me completely unaffected.
I find that an extremely selfish and short-sighted attitude. If the market
contracts, it will certainly contract in whatever area you are interested in
as well as those you are not.
> If I'm unlucky, I'll lose that one or two series a decade that I care
> about.
And to hell with everyone else, huh?
-
Blade
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
>> If I'm unlucky, I'll lose that one or two series a decade that I care
>> about.
>
> And to hell with everyone else, huh?
You like to add a layer of hostility or "F*** YOU" attitude that is not
present. I don't control the industry, I don't have any investment IN
the industry, and what happens to it will happen. I don't worry about
that stuff. If it survives and explodes into a super-industry that makes
Otaku Park in 2010, great. If it implodes and utterly disappears, eh,
c'est la vie. I can always write fanfic.
But I don't believe the doomsayers. There's going to have to be
adjustments -- Crunchyroll is one obvious adjustment, whether it, in its
own right, survives or not. (BTW, contrary to one of Starky's rantings,
the RIAA did not take Napster apart. They SUED Napster, but before
Napster collapsed, another company (IIRC, Bartelsman, but it's been a
while) BOUGHT Napster for a significant sum and used them. This did not
at first sit well with the OTHER members of the RIAA, who had hoped to
actually finish Napster off.
I had a vested interest in watching these antics, as for a while I was
employed by one of the file-sharing companies and was watching it
disintegrate under stupidity.
But the industry is not going away. It may contract -- for a while. It
may change operating parameters. But it'll survive.
Because if it doesn't, the people who suddenly AREN'T having their
demand filled... will find a way to fill it.
This is historically the way it works, and there's no reason to think
it's going to change now.
Travers Naran
> On Jul 7, 1:27 pm, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No, my preference for dubs is based on the
>> fact that I (as a snobby part-time actor) think English dub VAs are by and
>> large better actors who are more dedicated to their craft than Japanese
>> ones, and I thus tend to prefer their performances.
*SPLORT!* You made me spit-spray my Pepsi. I always knew Blade was...
not worth listening to.. but, boy, no wonder you're only a part-time actor.
> That being said, if the dub isn't by Macek, it ain't worth watching ;).
Heheh.
For the record, I loved the FLCL dub. Absolutely awesome, but then
again, they DID bring in the Japanese director to oversee the dub. ;-)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> 8-Bit Star wrote:
>> On Jul 7, 1:27 pm, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> No, my preference for dubs is based on the
>>> fact that I (as a snobby part-time actor) think English dub VAs are
>>> by and
>>> large better actors who are more dedicated to their craft than Japanese
>>> ones, and I thus tend to prefer their performances.
>
> *SPLORT!* You made me spit-spray my Pepsi. I always knew Blade was...
> not worth listening to.. but, boy, no wonder you're only a part-time actor.
>
My reaction as well. In RECENT years we've been getting dubs in English
that in some cases start to approach the STANDARD Japanese original...
but only recently. And even today you get quite a few dubs where it
sounds like half the actors are reading their lines -- haltingly -- from
the script as they go, and aren't sure of what they're saying.
Travers Naran
> "Travers Naran" <tna...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:L2Ack.2900$7%6.21@edtnps82...
>> Invid Fan wrote:
>> And HOW long ago was this? 1998.
>>
>> TEN frakking years ago!!
>
> You brought up the VHS topic first.
Nope. I brought up the fact that dubs are no longer a driver in the
market, then you and other brought up the Slayers experiment which
proves nothing for the debate today.
>> You're going to bring up a flawed experiment using VHS sales from 10 years
>> ago to talk about _now_? To quote the Trade Federation: "What are you?
>> Brain-dead?"
>
> Actually, you did. So I guess you're brain-dead.
*snort* Check the frakking thread. I didn't bring up the Slayers
dub-outsells-sub argument.
> And now, TV is king. Everything on TV is dubbed. Do the math. If you don't
> like the math, kindly produce actual evidence to support your assertions.
> Company practice and the only pieces of real-world sales performance
> indicate that dubs were not only more popular, but vastly more popular. Your
> move.
Fair enough.
http://www.medialifemagazine.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=230&num=4541
"The show [Naruto] averaged a 4.4 rating [among Boys 9-14]"
4.4 rating = 4.4% of Nielsen households = 4 963 200 households.
2.8 for teens = 2.8% of Nielsen households = 3 158 400
Pretty good!
Let's see... Naruto Shippuden #62
Veoh = 438584 views + 57628 + 55553 + 54256 + 45573 + 34295 + 31023 =
716 912 views
Dattebayo = 400 918 views.
Already I'm up to 1.1 million. And that's just a couple sites.
Veoh had people posting the episodes on their own, so I didn't include
the dozen other uploads of the episode with < 1000 views each. And the
one Naruto site I went to had disguised the filename on Veoh using some
arbitrary sequence of numbers and letters so there are probably even
MORE views I'm not counting.
I can't figure out how many watched it on YouTube + bit torrent +
limewire + eMule + other torrent sites, but I think it's safe to say
that Dattebayo + Veoh are less than 50% of the total pirating audience.
> (It is also quite obviously the case using the same anecdotal evidence you
> find so compelling that dubs are far more popular with serious anime fans
> than they were ten years ago. There's large fan communities around popular
> dub actors like Crispin Freeman, popular dub actors get large audiences at
> anime conventions, dvds include dub-only extras like interviews, commentary
> tracks and outtakes, and it is a generally though not unanimously held view
> that dubs are better than they were in the 90s. So who says the percentages
> aren't even greater now, with only old die-hards still insisting on subs?)
Me, because the plural on anecdotes is NOT data.
"large fan communities"? Numbers please! I went to the trouble of
getting you some numbers for just one episode Naruto vs. recent TV ratings.
"dvds include dub-only extras like interviews, commentary tracks and
outtakes"
Must not be renting/buying the right anime cause it's been a while since
I saw a dub actor interview. And just because the material is on the
disc doesn't mean everyone's watching it. You could be right, but
that's not proof of the Silent Dub Majority.
Although I can see the argument has morphed from what I was arguing
about originally:
Dubs are no longer necessary to guarantee an audience for anime. As
I've said repeatedly now, dubs will sell, but I don't think it's a huge
market.
Also, you bring up TV. Well, notice how few spots anime takes up on
Adult Swim. Very few anime will interest the mainstream or casual fan,
and yes, I do agree that THEY will prefer dubs, but that does not
translate into ADV growing large and healthy again or Funimation
becoming richer than they are because I don't believe that audience buys
a lot of DVDs.
My argument (and partially Darkstar's) is this:
Anime companies depend on people buying DVDs. Dubs only happen if DVDs
are selling or they get a rich TV deal. The market for people buying
anime DVDs is shrinking. The belief that "People prefer dubs and thus
fansub piracy could not be hurting the industry" is bullshit, and the
market for people buying DVDs is shrinking. With a shrinking market,
fewer titles will be dubbed into English and there will be fewer
companies releasing anime.
Where Darkstar and I diverge is he sees an apocalypse in the industry, I
just see "right sizing" to the size of the paying market.
If you want to argue about other things, by my guest. Bring it on!
>> Considering the INDUSTRY itself says they are losing sales to sub-only
>> FANSUBS (and I'm willing to take their word over anyone else's here), the
>> question that the vast majority of anime fans (and viewers) want dubs
>> seems... unlikely.
>
> You don't understand economics. Losing 10% of sales is a massive blow to any
> business. Losing 10% of sales in a small-margin business like anime can be
> fatal (the devaluation of the American dollar would have also hurt things).
> It doesn't require 50% of the audience to love subs. In fact, were it
> numbers like that that had stopped buying, we'd probably actually be seeing
> the troll's predictions coming true and the entire industry imploding,
> rather than a few companies in trouble.
*ahem*
http://anime.suite101.com/article.cfm/anime_dvd_sales_down_20_in_2007
"More bad news for anime producers hoping to bring their wares to North
America: anime DVD sales declined more than 20% in 2007. More ominously,
the number of anime titles getting North American distribution also
tumbled by 21%, a steeper drop than 2006's dip of 19%."
Losing 10%..? Blade, Darkstar has issues, but you're clueless, dude.
Farix
I'm sure it's much the same in Japanese. But since most of us do not
have a fluent understanding of the language, we don't detect such nuances.
Farix
Travers Naran
No, not really. There are some bad performances, but especially for the
high prestige series from high profile studios, the seiyuus work pretty
damned hard and the director can be a pain in the ass about getting
performances right. Why? Because in Japan, the studios live and die on
DVD sales--TV airing rights don't pay enough.[1] And DVD sales are
determined by what otaku tell other otaku about it, and otaku being
otaku, they nit-pick. BIG TIME. Right down to the authenticity of
regional accents, which leads to certain seiyuus always being cast to
play Osaka-ben speaking characters.
The only bad performances I encountered were cheap, children's anime.
It's pretty awful. If you can survive, try watching Sazae-san. >_<;
One of the more surprising ones, for me, was Hana Yori Dango. The
Japanese seiyuus were awful, and the sound mixing was crap. I'd also
say Yawara's voice acting was "phoning it in" too.
[1] Can't find the article right now, but the Japanese government was
going to look into the fee structure.
Abraham Evangelista
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>Travers Naran wrote:
>> 8-Bit Star wrote:
>>> On Jul 7, 1:27 pm, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, my preference for dubs is based on the
>>>> fact that I (as a snobby part-time actor) think English dub VAs are
>>>> by and
>>>> large better actors who are more dedicated to their craft than Japanese
>>>> ones, and I thus tend to prefer their performances.
>>
>> *SPLORT!* You made me spit-spray my Pepsi. I always knew Blade was...
>> not worth listening to.. but, boy, no wonder you're only a part-time actor.
>>
>
> My reaction as well. In RECENT years we've been getting dubs in English
>that in some cases start to approach the STANDARD Japanese original...
Dude, there's some seriously baaaaad Japanese dubs out there. It's
just a question of which direction they trend to.
Bad English dubs come across as halting, or stiff, often times due to
the need to match lip flap and animation. (Or more often due to bad
script adaptation and an uninspired director, but I digress...)
Bad Japanese dubs tend to over-do it in the other direction. Sqeaky
meets squeals meets my ears. I love Rie Kugimiya, but at this point I
can already tell that a character she's voicing is going to grate on
my ears more than a little bit. And it gets worse for some of the
male characters, who are just as typecast.
>but only recently. And even today you get quite a few dubs where it
>sounds like half the actors are reading their lines -- haltingly -- from
>the script as they go, and aren't sure of what they're saying.
Welcome to the wonderful world of lip flap!
--
Abraham Evangelista
darkst...@gmail.com
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in messagenews:g4u7b9$ueh$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
(Utter and complete bullshit.)
> >> Perhaps you'll be just fine with going back to a circa 1995 model (in
> >> terms of amount of licenses and relative penetration of non-TV series),
> >> then? I mean, the industry was "alive" then, so that counts as
> >> "surviving".
>
> > Indeed, it was very much alive. Small, but alive, and much more
> > interesting to watch. And still quite a large, active industry in Japan,
> > the producer country.
But more and more in need of foreign money to expand beyond that. In
fact, it was also the case that a lot of the stuff was OVA (direct-to-
video), and probably movies as well. We're getting back to that.
> Yes, I'm aware some fans have that opinion. I find it contemptible. On what
> justification do you find it a positive thing to severely restrict the
> options of other people to watch anime and read manga? In what way is that
> better for anybody?
Sea Wasp would probably tell you (and probably already has -- I'm
still almost 18 hours behind on the GG feed) that the market makes
that decision.
Of course, the market basically stating that the animation ain't worth
a damned dime leads to this absolute ridiculousness from Sea Wasp:
> > Actually, if you want to go to the worst-case scenario, it'll become a
> > cottage industry, as the downloaders run out of new stuff, some of them
> > start figuring out how to actually animate stuff (which in 10 years will
> > be a LOT easier to do), and pretty soon you have self-produced anime
> > movies, series, etc., filling the demand, with the best of them getting
> > bought.
>
> > Animated Doujin market, in essence.
OH...
MY...
GOD...
Just when I thought Sea Wasp could get no worse...
This is so freaking ridiculous, I don't even know where to start.
There is, however, one shred of credibility -- since the animation is
now deemed to be worthless by the audience purported to try to be sold
to, why not just take the industry out of the equation and do it
yourself?
Of course, we all know where that would end up -- 95% of "anime" would
be two naked guys fucking.
> Ugh. Just... ugh. No thank you, I would prefer to have access to the work of
> professionals than to have my purchasing options be limited to veterans of
> Deviantart and webcomics.
I agree with you -- the problem is that it's become far too expensive
for the professionals to stay in business.
What happens when (note my choice of words) Gonzo and most of the
other larger anime studios go out of business?
> > No, who cares about stuff that DOES air on American TV? (Aside from
> > Discovery and History Channel stuff, the networks managed to jump the
> > shark on the only show I was actually watching in primetime last year) At
> > least, that does so with any celerity, rather than being brought on years
> > afterward in a grudging admission that "yeah, it made 400 million in other
> > countries, maybe it could make a buck here too"
>
> It is the Holy Grail of sales and merchandising options to get anime on TV;
> that's why every company tries to do it and cherishes their licenses which
> are TV-friendly. This is all but ridiculously self-evident.
But you now see the ridiculous line of thinking that Sea Wasp has had
all along here.
Fact is, soon, it won't be just 80 cents on every anime dollar going
to merchandising. Every cent will, as the anime will either cease to
exist entirely, or be a simple medium for moving other product.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
On Jul 8, 6:11 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Blade wrote:
> I'm not restricting anyone's options.
The thieves and the fansubbers, and the CrunchyShitters are.
> I'm just saying that "death of an industry" requires DEATH, not
> readjustment, shrinkage, retargeting, etc.
Given what you are proposing as an alternative, I'd say DEATH is a
pretty good way to put it.
Face it: The industry is already on life-support, and the actions
legitimizing CrunchyRoll are basically all but calls for the plug to
be pulled and to let the patient die.
> Death is what happened to... well, buggy-whip companies. Someone out
> there may still make a few of those, but it's handwork and nothing like
> an industry.
Which is basically what you're proposing for anime when you say the
following (triple-quoted):
> >> Actually, if you want to go to the worst-case scenario, it'll become a
> >> cottage industry, as the downloaders run out of new stuff, some of them
> >> start figuring out how to actually animate stuff (which in 10 years will
> >> be a LOT easier to do), and pretty soon you have self-produced anime
> >> movies, series, etc., filling the demand, with the best of them getting
> >> bought.
>
> >> Animated Doujin market, in essence.
>
> > Ugh. Just... ugh. No thank you, I would prefer to have access to the work of
> > professionals than to have my purchasing options be limited to veterans of
> > Deviantart and webcomics.
>
> Of course, some of the Doujin are as good or better than the originals.
> Which is why the Japanese companies have traditionally watched the
> Doujin market for new potential talent.
The problem with that is that those people are then brought into the
professional framework and the like. That's not going to happen
anymore when there IS no professional framework.
> In this model, it'd be word of mouth, street-performer protocol, or
> voluntary organizations, then eventually -- I'd guess -- electronic
> publishing houses organized more like book publishers than current media.
That assumes there will be enough money in the shambles of an economy
which we'll have that that kind of stuff will exist -- you may think
otherwise...
> > It is the Holy Grail of sales and merchandising options to get anime on TV;
> > that's why every company tries to do it and cherishes their licenses which
> > are TV-friendly. This is all but ridiculously self-evident.
>
> Of course it is. That's how you're going to make money on it. And if I
> were running an anime company, it's what I'd be going for.
>
> Doesn't mean that *I* want to watch it.
But you're not going to get that choice anymore, because that's all
that can afford to be made in that model.
> And what I want to watch is of course my only criterion for whether I
> care whether something is on TV. As maybe 1 in 100, or fewer, shows can
> make it into that category, it's quite possible for the market to
> implode drastically and, if I get lucky, leave me completely unaffected.
It almost seems like you want the industry to implode.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Blade wrote:
> > "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
> >news:g4vol9$s64$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
> >> If I'm unlucky, I'll lose that one or two series a decade that I care
> >> about.
>
> > And to hell with everyone else, huh?
>
> You like to add a layer of hostility or "F*** YOU" attitude that is not
> present.
Bullshit, it's not present. But, as usual, you choose not to admit
your own failings.
> I don't control the industry, I don't have any investment IN
> the industry, and what happens to it will happen. I don't worry about
> that stuff. If it survives and explodes into a super-industry that makes
> Otaku Park in 2010, great. If it implodes and utterly disappears, eh,
> c'est la vie. I can always write fanfic.
Prepare to write some fanfic then.
> But I don't believe the doomsayers. There's going to have to be
> adjustments -- Crunchyroll is one obvious adjustment, whether it, in its
> own right, survives or not. (BTW, contrary to one of Starky's rantings,
> the RIAA did not take Napster apart. They SUED Napster, but before
> Napster collapsed, another company (IIRC, Bartelsman, but it's been a
> while) BOUGHT Napster for a significant sum and used them. This did not
> at first sit well with the OTHER members of the RIAA, who had hoped to
> actually finish Napster off.
For very good reason, as you are seeing with the anime industry --
they wanted to defend the copyright of the downloaded material, and
destroying the downloading would've done it. Thing is, they failed
when someone actually bought into the model.
That's what's happening here. It is no accident that downloading
(legal or otherwise) has obsoleted most record stores -- about the
only real new record store left is the Virgin Megastore -- at least
where I come from.
> I had a vested interest in watching these antics, as for a while I was
> employed by one of the file-sharing companies and was watching it
> disintegrate under stupidity.
Can't say that surprises me, given your stands.
> But the industry is not going away. It may contract -- for a while. It
> may change operating parameters. But it'll survive.
It's gone. The industry is going away because the "market" has named
its price (zero) and the people like CR are now writing instruments of
surrender for the anime companies. ADV goes next (if it's head
honchos don't end up arrested first), then probably Bandai and we'll
see how long Funi and Viz hold out.
> Because if it doesn't, the people who suddenly AREN'T having their
> demand filled... will find a way to fill it.
Yeah, they'll download all the other older stuff or they'll find
another industry to gut.
Mike
Ansgar -59cobalt- Wiechers
> Japanese actors, by and large, blow chunks. They are more concerned
> with imitating standard forms then actually getting into their
> characters, very few of them actually do it to make a living (whoops,
> guess that makes them "part-time actors"), their direction is largely
> uninspired, and the industry itself is basically devoted to stamping
> out cookie-cutter moe girls and bishie boys in order to sell CDs.
>
> How many hyper heliumed Megumi Hayashibara-wannabes are there? How
> many deep-voiced bishonen that might as well all be the same guy? How
> many squeaky voiced pervert old men, gravel-voiced rivals, Kikuko
> Inoue clones and cross-sounding tsundere girls?
>
> English dubs are better acted because they are by and large acted by
> people who actually care about their craft and do it for a living, not
> so they can sell CDs to sweaty otaku.
You must be getting other dubs than I do. Because almost every japanese
dub I've come across managed quite well to express the characters'
emotions, while the respective non-japanese dubs usually usually failed
to do so. To various extents, but failed nontheless.
cu
59cobalt
--
"My surname is Li and my personal name is Kao, and there is a slight
flaw in my character."
--Li Kao (Barry Hughart: Bridge of Birds)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
No, I don't think so. Vocal expression is something you can detect as
long as you know the SENSE of what's being said, even if the exact words
aren't known to you, and you can tell the difference (if you're
experienced yourself with such things) between someone who knows how to
express the character through their voice, and someone who can't.
And the Japanese, by and large, do this VERY well in anime, especially
when compared to the USA where, up until recently, voice acting wasn't
something you could actually do as a profession (outside of MAYBE 30-50
people -- the main cast of the Simpsons, and the Disney and other major
animation groups).
One of the worst Japanese VA moments for me was the last Dragonball
"Re-Do" movie, reprising the meeting of Goku Et.Al. and then segueing
into the Red Ribbon story arc; in the interim, the seiyuu who'd voiced
Kame-Senin had died, and the person they chose to replace him was
completely different in voice, tone, and approach, to the point that it
was actively painful to listen to him.
Blade
"Ansgar -59cobalt- Wiechers" <usene...@planetcobalt.net> wrote in message
news:g52rg0...@news.in-ulm.de...
> Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Japanese actors, by and large, blow chunks. They are more concerned
>> with imitating standard forms then actually getting into their
>> characters, very few of them actually do it to make a living (whoops,
>> guess that makes them "part-time actors"), their direction is largely
>> uninspired, and the industry itself is basically devoted to stamping
>> out cookie-cutter moe girls and bishie boys in order to sell CDs.
>>
>> How many hyper heliumed Megumi Hayashibara-wannabes are there? How
>> many deep-voiced bishonen that might as well all be the same guy? How
>> many squeaky voiced pervert old men, gravel-voiced rivals, Kikuko
>> Inoue clones and cross-sounding tsundere girls?
>>
>> English dubs are better acted because they are by and large acted by
>> people who actually care about their craft and do it for a living, not
>> so they can sell CDs to sweaty otaku.
>
> You must be getting other dubs than I do. Because almost every japanese
> dub I've come across managed quite well to express the characters'
> emotions, while the respective non-japanese dubs usually usually failed
> to do so. To various extents, but failed nontheless.
No, I'm not. And you're not listening to different Japanese dubbing than the
shitty cookie-cutter commercial product I am.
The lesson of this?
ALL OF THIS IS COMPLETELY, 100% SUBJECTIVE.
I believe all of the above. I also believe it is pretty much my opinion and
that no amount of telling people that Japanese voice actors suck will
convince them otherwise if that's all they watch. I mean, sure, it's
provable that a lot of seiyuu are part-timers, that the industry heavily
pushes merchandising, and if you dug enough I bet I could even find some
quotes where voice actors/directors will freely admit to copying the current
flavour seiyuu as much as possible, but it doesn't mean anything to someone
who really thinks helium-voiced girls are rad. That's taste, and that's
fine. Ultimately there is no such thing as "good acting" and "bad acting"
beyond personal opinion and market success, though there are certainly
guidelines to make market success more common (just like there are for
books, for music, and for every other artistic endeavour).
Your opinion of acting is noted. I think you're wrong, but ultimately, both
our opinions are completely, 100%, inarguably subjective. What's to be done
about it? Not a lot. Much as I appreciate being repeatedly insulted by
assholes (not including you, Ansgar), because my taste in the dubbing of
cartoons does not agree with theirs, we might as well go back to the main
point - that more people watch subs than dubs, even if it usually doesn't
include the self-styled "hardcore fans". And that if most anime isn't dubbed
anymore, the anime industry in North America will have suffered a
cataclysmic blow that will transform the market as we know it.
-
Blade
Blade
Ha ha ha ha. Let me make it clearer for you, then:
Japanese actors, by and large, blow chunks. They are more concerned with
imitating standard forms then actually getting into their characters, very
few of them actually do it to make a living (whoops, guess that makes them
"part-time actors"), their direction is largely uninspired, and the industry
itself is basically devoted to stamping out cookie-cutter moe girls and
bishie boys in order to sell CDs.
How many hyper heliumed Megumi Hayashibara-wannabes are there? How many
deep-voiced bishonen that might as well all be the same guy? How many
squeaky voiced pervert old men, gravel-voiced rivals, Kikuko Inoue clones
and cross-sounding tsundere girls?
English dubs are better acted because they are by and large acted by people
who actually care about their craft and do it for a living, not so they can
sell CDs to sweaty otaku. Some of them even care about the show they're
doing! There's exceptions on the other side of the Pacific (I actually do
respect Megumi Hayashibara quite a bit; she has range), but if you think
your much vaunted Japanese voiceacting is anything other than a
commercialised cookiecutter product with as much art and innovativeness
involved as the latest maid anime, then you are deluding yourself.
Of course, that doesn't mean you can't like it. After all, entire anime have
been made just to sell product based on the popularity of their voice actors
(heya, Weiss Kruez). But this myth that the Japanese have some sort of
super-voice-actor technology is stupid. Where you are born doesn't make you
a good actor. There is nothing special about the Japanese voice actor
industry besides its associated merchandising. There is no inherent
superiority to the ubermensch nihonjin. Japanese dubbing isn't any better
than English dubbing, other than the fact you can't understand what they're
saying so it's not like you would catch it if there was any subtleties to
Annoying Squeaky-Voiced Old Pervert #5238528924570 anyway.
-
Blade
Blade
> 8-Bit Star wrote:
>> On Jul 7, 1:27 pm, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> No, my preference for dubs is based on the
>>> fact that I (as a snobby part-time actor) think English dub VAs are by
>>> and
>>> large better actors who are more dedicated to their craft than Japanese
>>> ones, and I thus tend to prefer their performances.
>
> *SPLORT!* You made me spit-spray my Pepsi. I always knew Blade was... not
> worth listening to.. but, boy, no wonder you're only a part-time actor.
Thanks, asshole. You assume what you like.
-
Blade
Blade
>>> Considering the INDUSTRY itself says they are losing sales to sub-only
>>> FANSUBS (and I'm willing to take their word over anyone else's here),
>>> the question that the vast majority of anime fans (and viewers) want
>>> dubs seems... unlikely.
>>
>> You don't understand economics. Losing 10% of sales is a massive blow to
>> any business. Losing 10% of sales in a small-margin business like anime
>> can be fatal (the devaluation of the American dollar would have also hurt
>> things). It doesn't require 50% of the audience to love subs. In fact,
>> were it numbers like that that had stopped buying, we'd probably actually
>> be seeing the troll's predictions coming true and the entire industry
>> imploding, rather than a few companies in trouble.
>
> *ahem*
> http://anime.suite101.com/article.cfm/anime_dvd_sales_down_20_in_2007
>
> "More bad news for anime producers hoping to bring their wares to North
> America: anime DVD sales declined more than 20% in 2007. More ominously,
> the number of anime titles getting North American distribution also
> tumbled by 21%, a steeper drop than 2006's dip of 19%."
>
> Losing 10%..? Blade, Darkstar has issues, but you're clueless, dude.
Yes, that certainly disproves what I said above. Welcome to my killfile, you
giant asshole.
-
Blade
Farix
> Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Japanese actors, by and large, blow chunks. They are more concerned
>> with imitating standard forms then actually getting into their
>> characters, very few of them actually do it to make a living (whoops,
>> guess that makes them "part-time actors"), their direction is largely
>> uninspired, and the industry itself is basically devoted to stamping
>> out cookie-cutter moe girls and bishie boys in order to sell CDs.
>>
>> How many hyper heliumed Megumi Hayashibara-wannabes are there? How
>> many deep-voiced bishonen that might as well all be the same guy? How
>> many squeaky voiced pervert old men, gravel-voiced rivals, Kikuko
>> Inoue clones and cross-sounding tsundere girls?
>>
>> English dubs are better acted because they are by and large acted by
>> people who actually care about their craft and do it for a living, not
>> so they can sell CDs to sweaty otaku.
>
> You must be getting other dubs than I do. Because almost every japanese
> dub I've come across managed quite well to express the characters'
> emotions, while the respective non-japanese dubs usually usually failed
> to do so. To various extents, but failed nontheless.
I haven't found an English dub in a while that hasn't deliver the same
or nearly the same quality as the original Japanese. Which makes me
think that the claims that the Japanese VAs are better are full of
self-righteous nonsense.
Farix
selaboc
> Blade wrote:
> > "Travers Naran" <tna...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:L2Ack.2900$7%6.21@edtnps82...
> >> Invid Fan wrote:
> >> And HOW long ago was this? 1998.
>
> >> TEN frakking years ago!!
>
> > You brought up the VHS topic first.
>
> Nope. I brought up the fact that dubs are no longer a driver in the
> market, then you and other brought up the Slayers experiment which
> proves nothing for the debate today.
No, you brought up VHS topic first by stating (And I'm quoting YOUR
words) "Also, didn't subs used to be at least 50% more expensive than
dubs?" that was VHS days you were refering to, so don't be surprised
when people correct your mistakes (They weren't 50% more and in
atleast one case, Slayers, they were the same price).
> *snort* Check the frakking thread. I didn't bring up the Slayers
> dub-outsells-sub argument.
No you brought up subs sold less because they were 50% more expensive.
Why the surprise when someone corrects that factual error with a
concrete example of just how off base it was?
> > And now, TV is king. Everything on TV is dubbed. Do the math. If you don't
> > like the math, kindly produce actual evidence to support your assertions.
> > Company practice and the only pieces of real-world sales performance
> > indicate that dubs were not only more popular, but vastly more popular. Your
> > move.
>
> Fair enough.
>
> http://www.medialifemagazine.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive...
>
> "The show [Naruto] averaged a 4.4 rating [among Boys 9-14]"
> 4.4 rating = 4.4% of Nielsen households = 4 963 200 households.
>
> 2.8 for teens = 2.8% of Nielsen households = 3 158 400
>
> Pretty good!
>
> Let's see... Naruto Shippuden #62
>
> Veoh = 438584 views + 57628 + 55553 + 54256 + 45573 + 34295 + 31023 =
> 716 912 views
>
> Dattebayo = 400 918 views.
>
> Already I'm up to 1.1 million. And that's just a couple sites.
However, the way you are using those numbers is flawed. those are
"page views" not necessarily the same thing as watching the entire
episode. yes, people view the episodes that way, but they can also
start viewing it, see it's not what they want within a minute and
click on some other page, post a response or check to see what others
are saying (veoh has a comments section on the same page as the
episode) which can result in the same person "viewing" the page
multiple times even if they only watched the episode once or even
never. And that not even mentioning that not everyone who is visting
veoh or Dattebayo, etc is from the R1 market. In otherwords those
numbers you just quoted are greatly inflated for a various number of
reasons and thus trying to compare them to an single R1 TV broadcast
(many shows these days get multiple TV arings at various timeslots on
the same station, and depending on show differnt stations) is apples
and oranges.
> Dubs are no longer necessary to guarantee an audience for anime.
they never were. Even back in the VHS days, there were sub only
releases that managed to find an audience despite the lack of a dub.
Galen
wrote:
snip
>fine. Ultimately there is no such thing as "good acting" and "bad acting"
>beyond personal opinion and market success, though there are certainly
>guidelines to make market success more common (just like there are for
>books, for music, and for every other artistic endeavour).
>
There is at least one difference in dubbing techniques -
the Japanese, AFAIK, get all the voice actors together
for a read through. In the US, the actor arrived at the
studio, was handed a script for a show he knew nothing
about, was placed alone in a sound-proof booth, and told
to match the lip-flaps of the character on the screen.
He did not hear the dialog of any other characters,
he did not know what circumstances his character
was speaking under, he did not even know the name
or background of the character he was playing. And the
fans called it bad acting when his delivery was wooden.
I think, myself, that the real difference is in the quality
of the directors, rather than in the performers. And the
US directors have been steadily getting better.
-Galen
Aside from that, let's be civil and refrain from personal
attacks, shall we? This isn't 4chan.
bobbie sellers
> Blade <kumo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Japanese actors, by and large, blow chunks. They are more concerned
>> with imitating standard forms then actually getting into their
>> characters, very few of them actually do it to make a living (whoops,
>> guess that makes them "part-time actors"), their direction is largely
>> uninspired, and the industry itself is basically devoted to stamping
>> out cookie-cutter moe girls and bishie boys in order to sell CDs.
>>
>> How many hyper heliumed Megumi Hayashibara-wannabes are there? How
>> many deep-voiced bishonen that might as well all be the same guy? How
>> many squeaky voiced pervert old men, gravel-voiced rivals, Kikuko
>> Inoue clones and cross-sounding tsundere girls?
>>
>> English dubs are better acted because they are by and large acted by
>> people who actually care about their craft and do it for a living, not
>> so they can sell CDs to sweaty otaku.
>>
>
> You must be getting other dubs than I do. Because almost every japanese
> dub I've come across managed quite well to express the characters'
> emotions, while the respective non-japanese dubs usually usually failed
> to do so. To various extents, but failed nontheless.
>
> cu
> 59cobalt
>
in Japanese even though I catch very few words but for
the tone as they have a better idea of what emotions they
should be expressing than many English speaking dub
actors who sometimes give wooden readings of the parts
or interpret the Japanese school girls and boys as American
teens. But generally these days the English dubs are better
than they have been and at times the subtitles are at variance
with the dialogue going on in Japanese, with too much US
slang.
later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)
--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco
Ningen banji Human beings do
Samazama no Every single kind
Baka a suru Of stupid thing
--- 117th edition of Haifu Yanagidaru published in 1832
Travers Naran
> On Jul 8, 10:26 pm, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Blade wrote:
> > > "Travers Naran" <tna...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > >news:L2Ack.2900$7%6.21@edtnps82...
> > >> Invid Fan wrote:
> > >> And HOW long ago was this? 1998.
>
> > >> TEN frakking years ago!!
>
> > > You brought up the VHS topic first.
>
> > Nope. I brought up the fact that dubs are no longer a driver in the
> > market, then you and other brought up the Slayers experiment which
> > proves nothing for the debate today.
>
> No, you brought up VHS topic first by stating (And I'm quoting YOUR
> words) "Also, didn't subs used to be at least 50% more expensive than
> dubs?" that was VHS days you were refering to, so don't be surprised
> when people correct your mistakes (They weren't 50% more and in
> atleast one case, Slayers, they were the same price).
> No you brought up subs sold less because they were 50% more expensive.
> Why the surprise when someone corrects that factual error with a
> concrete example of just how off base it was?
I sometimes fear for the reading comprehension of this group...
The argument was "Dubs are clearly more popular than subs, the Slayers
experiment proved it."
I responded by pointing out that data was from the VHS days when it
was one or the other, and while I probably didn't make it clear that I
was NOT specifically talking about Slayers when mentioning the price
disparity, it was based on my observation of VHS prices from that time
(mid 90s) and conversation with friends who bought a lot of VHS.
The other explanation I heard for higher sub-only costs: to prevent
reverse importation into Japan.
> > Already I'm up to 1.1 million. And that's just a couple sites.
>
> However, the way you are using those numbers is flawed. those are
> "page views" not necessarily the same thing as watching the entire
> episode. yes, people view the episodes that way, but they can also
> start viewing it, see it's not what they want within a minute and
> click on some other page, post a response or check to see what others
> are saying (veoh has a comments section on the same page as the
> episode) which can result in the same person "viewing" the page
> multiple times even if they only watched the episode once or even
> never. And that not even mentioning that not everyone who is visting
> veoh or Dattebayo, etc is from the R1 market. In otherwords those
> numbers you just quoted are greatly inflated for a various number of
> reasons and thus trying to compare them to an single R1 TV broadcast
> (many shows these days get multiple TV arings at various timeslots on
> the same station, and depending on show differnt stations) is apples
> and oranges.
What you are saying is there is no evidence I could possible present
to prove that today's market is perfectly happy with subs. What kind
of evidence can I reasonably get my hands on to prove to you the dub
market is smaller than the sub-only market, and that the dub market is
shrinking?
> > Dubs are no longer necessary to guarantee an audience for anime.
>
> they never were. Even back in the VHS days, there were sub only
> releases that managed to find an audience despite the lack of a dub.
And the argument from Blade et al. is there's a) a huge paying dub
market, and b) it's healthy and growing, and c) any problems are from
mismanagement, not because piracy is eating into their bottom lines
because d) anime fans prefer dubs.
I think I've done a lot of work to show that at least points a, b and
d are false. c is harder to prove because these companies are private
and not forthcoming with their financials and business plans.
Travers Naran
> "Travers Naran" <tna...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >http://anime.suite101.com/article.cfm/anime_dvd_sales_down_20_in_2007
>
> > "More bad news for anime producers hoping to bring their wares to North
> > America: anime DVD sales declined more than 20% in 2007. More ominously,
> > the number of anime titles getting North American distribution also
> > tumbled by 21%, a steeper drop than 2006's dip of 19%."
>
> > Losing 10%..? Blade, Darkstar has issues, but you're clueless, dude.
>
> Yes, that certainly disproves what I said above.
20% decline for 2 straight years: a 36% decline in revenue. Is that
losing 10% of your sales??
> Welcome to my killfile, you giant asshole.
Being called a giant asshole by Blade is like the ultimate
compliment. :-)
And being killfile'd by him too just makes it sweeter. He lost the
argument, so he picks up his ball and runs home.
sanjian
Assuming what you say is true (and, based on youtube viewings, I find it
hard to accept), a better explanation would simply be that the quality of
AmeriDubs has changed in very recent times, but it takes time for opinions
to shift.
sanjian
> I agree with Ansgar. I like to listen to the voice actors
> in Japanese even though I catch very few words but for
> the tone as they have a better idea of what emotions they
> should be expressing than many English speaking dub
> actors who sometimes give wooden readings of the parts
> or interpret the Japanese school girls and boys as American
> teens. But generally these days the English dubs are better
> than they have been and at times the subtitles are at variance
> with the dialogue going on in Japanese, with too much US
> slang.
All the proof you need is in Jodie-sensei, from Detective Conan. For a long
time, they had her acting strangely, in order to (poorly) immitate how an
American would sound. There's nothing specific I can pick out, but it's
VERY clear that the acting is bad.
Derek Janssen
>>
>> I haven't found an English dub in a while that hasn't deliver the same
>> or nearly the same quality as the original Japanese. Which makes me
>> think that the claims that the Japanese VAs are better are full of
>> self-righteous nonsense.
>
> Assuming what you say is true (and, based on youtube viewings, I find it
> hard to accept), a better explanation would simply be that the quality
> of AmeriDubs has changed in very recent times, but it takes time for
> opinions to shift.
Ten years ago, dubs (and knee-jerk fan opinions thereof) were created
for mainstream syndie broadcast--
Now, cable broadcast just coattails onto a company's existing DVD
catalog, and the DVD companies handle the dubbing.
"One Piece" could be called one of the last "made for TV" dubbings, but
4Kids isn't dead yet.
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> Rob Kelk <rob...@deadspam.com> wrote:
>
> > Back in 1995, I would have agreed with you. But since then, there's
> > been widespread adoption of broadband Internet availability. That has
> > made feasable:
> > * Napster and its clones,
> > * YouTube and its clones,
> > * dedicated anime P2P tracker sites,
> > * iTunes Movie Store and its (largely-unsuccessful) clones, and
> > * streaming-video websites.
>
> > All of these skew the sub/dub numbers. I don't know how, or in which
> > direction. I suspect *nobody* knows how. But I'm willing to look at
> > numbers if anybody has them...
>
> Sorry no numbers, but similar to what I said in another
> message, my annecdotal data was with folks who started
> out dub-only (fervent), started watching fansubs from
> sites like YouTube because that was the only way to get
> the shows of interest, got even more interested in other
> shows (also fansubbed), and now lean towards subs.
> These have tended to be kids whose initial exposure was
> to translated manga or dubbed broadcasts, who then
> discovered anime. They weren't anime fans, they were
> fans of specific titles that then went on to become
> anime fans. Time elapsed: about a year or two (max).
>
> The sense I'm getting from kids is that they pursue
> whatever they are interested in, and if there is a
> steady supply of online fansubs, they will find it
> and if subs is the only form they can get their fix in
> (as opposed to dubs) they would rather learn to live
> with subtitles and watch fansubs than do without it
> at all. I suspect the dub numbers will always
> outweigh the subs, but I don't think sub fans are
> a dying breed, either. At least not until anime
> releases become multilingual or simultaneous
> internationally.
>
I guess a good indicator is when time is immaterial.
People who get/buy a new anime (to them) that already has
a sub and dub and who doesn't care how recent or old that anime
(meaning, they needn't have to have it now or yesterday).
Laters. =)
Stan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ LostRune+sig [at] UofR [dot] net
| ( _| | http://www.uofr.net/~lostrune/
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
darkst...@gmail.com
> On Jul 9, 6:53 am, selaboc <c64...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I sometimes fear for the reading comprehension of this group...
I don't fear for it -- I understand it does not exist.
> The argument was "Dubs are clearly more popular than subs, the Slayers
> experiment proved it."
Which is completely false to anyone with the rudimentary understanding
of the present anime situation unless someone really wants to openly
charge the industry with rampant (and certainly criminal) fraud.
> I responded by pointing out that data was from the VHS days when it
> was one or the other, and while I probably didn't make it clear that I
> was NOT specifically talking about Slayers when mentioning the price
> disparity, it was based on my observation of VHS prices from that time
> (mid 90s) and conversation with friends who bought a lot of VHS.
Which DVD certainly obsoleted in most every form. The Internet is
going to obsolete the DVD-based industry (and probably ANY sales-based
industry vis-a-vis anime).
> The other explanation I heard for higher sub-only costs: to prevent
> reverse importation into Japan.
Which is, by the by, one of the reasons this whole Blu-Ray kick will
fail.
> What you are saying is there is no evidence I could possible present
> to prove that today's market is perfectly happy with subs. What kind
> of evidence can I reasonably get my hands on to prove to you the dub
> market is smaller than the sub-only market, and that the dub market is
> shrinking?
I think you'd have to find out when some of the American voice talents
are going to retire, just like these same people will not be satisfied
about the current state of the anime industry until they have the
bankruptcy papers in hand.
> > > Dubs are no longer necessary to guarantee an audience for anime.
Ding-dong. In fact, right now, they may prove a hindrance, except for
the Cartoon Network "Naru-tards"...
> > they never were. Even back in the VHS days, there were sub only
> > releases that managed to find an audience despite the lack of a dub.
>
> And the argument from Blade et al. is there's a) a huge paying dub
> market, and b) it's healthy and growing, and c) any problems are from
> mismanagement, not because piracy is eating into their bottom lines
> because d) anime fans prefer dubs.
a) Blade needs to actually talk to some of these voice talents to see
that to be false.
b) is demonstratably false and has been discussed time and again.
c) is probably the main argument of the thieves which populate this
newsgroup.
d) is so false, it's laughable.
> I think I've done a lot of work to show that at least points a, b and
> d are false. c is harder to prove because these companies are private
> and not forthcoming with their financials and business plans.
c) is only true if the anime industry is committing massive criminal
fraud.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> "One Piece" could be called one of the last "made for TV" dubbings, but
> 4Kids isn't dead yet.
Oh come on. The only way you're going to get dubs in the future is
that they're "made for TV".
Mike (It's just too damn expensive otherwise.)
The Wanderer
> On Jul 9, 1:52 pm, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 9, 6:53 am, selaboc <c64...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I sometimes fear for the reading comprehension of this group...
>
> I don't fear for it -- I understand it does not exist.
The only way I can see this as something you could actually believe is
if I assume you are equating "failure to agree with you" with "failure
to comprehend what you wrote".
Given that you have repeatedly described "being reasonable" as being
equal to "agreeing and shutting up", this seems to me like at minimum
some kind of a double standard.
--
The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.
Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.
selaboc
> > > Already I'm up to 1.1 million. And that's just a couple sites.
>
> > However, the way you are using those numbers is flawed. those are
> > "page views" not necessarily the same thing as watching the entire
> > episode. yes, people view the episodes that way, but they can also
> > start viewing it, see it's not what they want within a minute and
> > click on some other page, post a response or check to see what others
> > are saying (veoh has a comments section on the same page as the
> > episode) which can result in the same person "viewing" the page
> > multiple times even if they only watched the episode once or even
> > never. And that not even mentioning that not everyone who is visting
> > veoh or Dattebayo, etc is from the R1 market. In otherwords those
> > numbers you just quoted are greatly inflated for a various number of
> > reasons and thus trying to compare them to an single R1 TV broadcast
> > (many shows these days get multiple TV arings at various timeslots on
> > the same station, and depending on show differnt stations) is apples
> > and oranges.
>
> What you are saying is there is no evidence I could possible present
> to prove that today's market is perfectly happy with subs. What kind
> of evidence can I reasonably get my hands on to prove to you the dub
> market is smaller than the sub-only market, and that the dub market is
> shrinking?
What I'm saying is your so called evidence is too flawed to be of any
real comparitive value (and I haven't even listed ALL the flaws)
becuase you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
> > > Dubs are no longer necessary to guarantee an audience for anime.
>
> > they never were. Even back in the VHS days, there were sub only
> > releases that managed to find an audience despite the lack of a dub.
>
> And the argument from Blade et al. is there's a) a huge paying dub
> market, and b) it's healthy and growing, and c) any problems are from
> mismanagement, not because piracy is eating into their bottom lines
> because d) anime fans prefer dubs.
>
> I think I've done a lot of work to show that at least points a, b and
> d are false. c is harder to prove because these companies are private
> and not forthcoming with their financials and business plans.
a and b, yeah I say so. d not even close. and probably not ever, as
the data you need, frankly, doesn't exist. The best you can prove with
the data available is that some segments of anime fans prefer dubs and
some prefer subs. And even that requires assumptions that could be
considered iffy at best.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:06:04 -0400, "Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> snip
> >fine. Ultimately there is no such thing as "good acting" and "bad acting"
> >beyond personal opinion and market success, though there are certainly
> >guidelines to make market success more common (just like there are for
> >books, for music, and for every other artistic endeavour).
> >
> snip
>
> There is at least one difference in dubbing techniques -
> the Japanese, AFAIK, get all the voice actors together
> for a read through. In the US, the actor arrived at the
> studio, was handed a script for a show he knew nothing
> about, was placed alone in a sound-proof booth, and told
> to match the lip-flaps of the character on the screen.
> He did not hear the dialog of any other characters,
>
That depends on the order of the sessions.
If it's the first session (usually reserved to experienced actors),
then obviously there's no other voices.
Anything after that would have other voices.
If it's the last, then you get to hear everyone else's dialogue.
They should do read-throughs like those for Sealab on Adult Swim. ^_^
8-Bit Star
> How many hyper heliumed Megumi Hayashibara-wannabes are there? How many
> deep-voiced bishonen that might as well all be the same guy? How many
> squeaky voiced pervert old men, gravel-voiced rivals, Kikuko Inoue clones
> and cross-sounding tsundere girls?
You know what, I honestly haven't noticed English dubs being
any different in the "how many times have I heard that voice?"
regard.
You have your opinion and I have mine. Mine is that while
dubs are usually watchable, they typically have enough flaws
to send me back to the Japanese VAs.
In particular:
1. Unnecessary dialogue changes
-Japanese DBZ:
[Raditz beats up Piccolo, Goku, and Tien]
RADITZ: And if you think that's something, guess what--
two more Saiyans are coming and they're even stronger
than me!
[Goku etc. look all terrified]
-American DBZ (from Ultimate Uncut dub):
[Raditz beats up Goku team]
RADITZ: And if you think that's something, guess
what, I'm just getting warmed up!
[Goku team looks all terrified]
I can understand Goku team's reaction in the Japanese
version, but in the American one they're taking a
braggart at face value and it makes them look like
fools.
2. Bad Inflections, putting emphasis on the wrong
words or syllables, and generally tripping up their
speech. I'll find a specific example later but I remember
this being one reason I hated ADV's dubs.
3. Children-who-sound-like-adults-pretending-to-be-kids.
I think that only Naruto and Pokemon have child
characters who actually sound their age. Every other
dub I've seen (and even some American cartoons) can't
seem to get this right.
4. For that matter, the voices themselves. English
voices always come off to me like they're just trying
to fit a generic archtype. "Oh, he's the gruff guy, so
we'll make him sound like it." I know you could
(and have) said the same thing about the Japanese
voices, but I think that even so, they've got the types
down pat. It also seems like (in some instances)
they DO care more about characterization--like
how Japanese Goku was given a childlike voice
to reflect his happy-go-lucky innocence, versus
how American Goku was just another tough-guy
action hero.
darkst...@gmail.com
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jul 9, 1:52 pm, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Jul 9, 6:53 am, selaboc <c64...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I sometimes fear for the reading comprehension of this group...
>
> > I don't fear for it -- I understand it does not exist.
>
> The only way I can see this as something you could actually believe is
> if I assume you are equating "failure to agree with you" with "failure
> to comprehend what you wrote".
>
> Given that you have repeatedly described "being reasonable" as being
> equal to "agreeing and shutting up", this seems to me like at minimum
> some kind of a double standard.
Actually, the funny part of that argument is that all four of those
statements, on USENET, are essentially equivalent, in the eyes of the
poster.
Mike
Derek Janssen
> It also seems like (in some instances)
> they DO care more about characterization--like
> how Japanese Goku was given a childlike voice
> to reflect his happy-go-lucky innocence, versus
> how American Goku was just another tough-guy
> action hero.
And the JP version still freaks me out. 0_0'''
At least the US Goku still has a little bit of Gourry-esque goofiness in
his more-heroic-than-brilliant "hero" voice, which plays up the
character more clearly...
You be a kid-hearted lug, and STILL effectively go through puberty.
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> 8-Bit Star wrote:
>
>> It also seems like (in some instances)
>> they DO care more about characterization--like
>> how Japanese Goku was given a childlike voice
>> to reflect his happy-go-lucky innocence, versus
>> how American Goku was just another tough-guy
>> action hero.
>
> And the JP version still freaks me out. 0_0'''
But it's the right way to play the character. I can't listen to the
American dub of DBZ for that reason. Some of the other VAs are quite
good, and I'm sure the one for Goku is TECHNICALLY good, but he sounds
totally wrong. Like giving Keiichi-san Mr. Satan's voice or something.
sanjian
Might be more accurate to say that the english VAs fit stereotypes we're not
particularly fond of. If I wanted to listen to American-styled action
heros, I'd watch what oozes out of Hollywood. I'm not very fond of U.S.
mass entertainment, so I'd like my alternatives to be... well, actually
different.
And this is coming from the group's resident Mr. Red, White, and Blue.
Blade
"8-Bit Star" <nes...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7aa07912-0f42-4508...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 9, 7:26 am, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> How many hyper heliumed Megumi Hayashibara-wannabes are there? How many
>> deep-voiced bishonen that might as well all be the same guy? How many
>> squeaky voiced pervert old men, gravel-voiced rivals, Kikuko Inoue clones
>> and cross-sounding tsundere girls?
>
> You know what, I honestly haven't noticed English dubs being
> any different in the "how many times have I heard that voice?"
> regard.
There's a very big difference.
In English, you may be hearing the same voice again. In Japanese, you are
hearing someone else doing their damndest to pretend to be the same voice.
That being said, I agree some English voice actors are in a few more roles
than I'd like, since they can't all have the range of Spike Spencer (the
biggest offender being the voice of Jet from Cowboy Bebop, who is a good
actor with a great voice who just can't seem to do any other voice). It's
awesome when a typecast VA takes a very different role, however, such as
Crispin Freeman's outstanding turn as Straight Cougar in S-CRY-ed.
> I can understand Goku team's reaction in the Japanese
> version, but in the American one they're taking a
> braggart at face value and it makes them look like
> fools.
To be fair, the new early DBZ dub is deliberately colloquial to fit in with
the rest of the dub (and also includes a lot of the famous lines from the
Ocean dub), which was made for TV and yes, is inaccurate in places (it's not
nice to Bulma, for instance, but then neither was the Japanese filler).
That's not really representative of dubs as a whole, though, which are made
for DVD and not TV.
The rest is completely subjective opinion. For instance, I think Goku
sounding like a girl voicing a ten year old (convienently, exactly what the
voice is) is ridiculous, since I can only assume his testicles dropped
SOMEWHERE along the line since he had two kids.
-
Blade
Rob Kelk
<inverse...@comcast.net> wrote:
>darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
<snip to avoid "dragging out of killfiles">
>The only way I can see this as something you could actually believe is
>if I assume you are equating "failure to agree with you" with "failure
>to comprehend what you wrote".
>
>Given that you have repeatedly described "being reasonable" as being
>equal to "agreeing and shutting up", this seems to me like at minimum
>some kind of a double standard.
That's just two examples of the lack of reading comprehension of that
particular person. It says nothing about the remainder of the group...
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"When a person can no longer laugh at himself, it is time for others
to laugh at him."
- Thomas Szasz, "The Second Sin", 1973
Aya the Vampire Slayer
>You know what, I honestly haven't noticed English dubs being
>any different in the "how many times have I heard that voice?"
>regard.
>You have your opinion and I have mine. Mine is that while
>dubs are usually watchable, they typically have enough flaws
>to send me back to the Japanese VAs.
I actually watch more dubs than subs these days, even though it used to
be the other way around (for me) for the longest time. The dubs have
gotten quite a bit better, and in fact, some are quite outstanding. For
instance, I actually can't stand watching Fullmetal Alchemist in
Japanese anymore; Ed's (jpn) voice grates on my nerves.
>1. [...]
I actually don't mind them changing content of the dub lines in order to
make the English version flow better, as long as it doesn't change the
overall intent and feel of the series. Normally this is not a problem.
Super Milk-chan is the lesson here (and Shin-chan, for the opposite
reason).
>2. Bad Inflections, putting emphasis on the wrong
>words or syllables, and generally tripping up their
>speech. I'll find a specific example later but I remember
>this being one reason I hated ADV's dubs.
However, when I do find myself hating dubs, this is one of the largest
reasons why.
I watched the dub for Full Metal Panic Fumoffu (note: I never watched
the first season). While Sagara's voice actor was good in almost all
ways I could ever ask for, THIS is the one point he failed on. And the
worst part about it? It was his pronunciation of the female lead's name
that was the culprit. Which is terrible, since he probably says her name
a hundred times per episode (exaggeration of course, but still).
So what is it? Chittery? Miss Jittery? That's what I kept hearing, but
for the life of me I knew that couldn't be right. I had to go look it up
online, and was aghast to learn that her name is.... CHIDORI??? You have
got to be kidding me.
And I do realize that English-speakers trying to pronounce Japanese
words and names can be difficult, but if they're going to leave the
Japanese words/names in, then they need to make at least SOME effort to
say them right. Always put emphasis on the first syllable, and you're
already halfway there (heck, if all they did was this then I would be
perfectly happy). That said, I couldn't care less if they changed the
characters' names for the English version (unless there's an obvious
need for the characters to be Japanese, e.g., Zipang).
>3. Children-who-sound-like-adults-pretending-to-be-kids.
>I think that only Naruto and Pokemon have child
>characters who actually sound their age. Every other
>dub I've seen (and even some American cartoons) can't
>seem to get this right.
This is the other, lesser thing I find English dubs to fail repeatedly
with. They are getting better though. Aaron Dimsuke was excellent for Al
in Fullmetal. Heck, even Chibi Usa's second(?) voice actress (definitely
her S season voice) was a large improvement. But most of the time I
guess they don't have the luxury of using actual kids to play child
parts (child labor laws?), so we have to put up with this annoyance
quite often. I will admit that SOME adult actors can pull it off
believably, but not many. I think this most often occurs when a main
character has a flashback to their childhood, in which they have to say
a few lines as if they were 6 years old.
Also, as a complete and utter personal bias, I can't stand watching the
dub for anything in which Hilary Haag plays a significant role. I can't
stand her voice (Super Milk Chan, Rosette in Chrono Crusade) and what I
percieve as her inability to act.
There are also things I hate about Japanese-language dubs, such as their
tendancy to use girls to voice teenage guys. But I guess that's not what
this discussion is about, so I'll stop here.
--
"Care must be exorcised when handring Opiticar System as it is apts to
be sticked by dusts and hand-fat." --Japanese Translators
"Keep your fingers off the lens." --Elton Byington, English Translator
Invid Fan
sanjian <mun...@vt.edu> wrote:
Or it might be accurate to say that Japanese VA stereotypes sound
stupid when done in English :)
--
Chris Mack *quote under construction*
'Invid Fan'
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
That's unpatriotic!
Next thing you'd say we should speak a 2nd language! ^_^
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
>
> "8-Bit Star" <nes...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:7aa07912-0f42-4508...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I can understand Goku team's reaction in the Japanese
> > version, but in the American one they're taking a
> > braggart at face value and it makes them look like
> > fools.
>
> To be fair, the new early DBZ dub is deliberately colloquial to fit in with
> the rest of the dub (and also includes a lot of the famous lines from the
> Ocean dub), which was made for TV and yes, is inaccurate in places (it's not
> nice to Bulma, for instance, but then neither was the Japanese filler).
> That's not really representative of dubs as a whole, though, which are made
> for DVD and not TV.
>
> The rest is completely subjective opinion. For instance, I think Goku
> sounding like a girl voicing a ten year old (convienently, exactly what the
> voice is) is ridiculous, since I can only assume his testicles dropped
> SOMEWHERE along the line since he had two kids.
>
Hey! Mike Tyson would take a bite off you for that! ^_^
(Hmmmm... Mike Tyson playing live-action movie Goku....)
Laters. =)
STan
sanjian
> 8-Bit Star <nes...@gmail.com> wa:
>> You know what, I honestly haven't noticed English dubs being
>> any different in the "how many times have I heard that voice?"
>> regard.
>
>> You have your opinion and I have mine. Mine is that while
>> dubs are usually watchable, they typically have enough flaws
>> to send me back to the Japanese VAs.
>
> I actually watch more dubs than subs these days, even though it used
> to be the other way around (for me) for the longest time. The dubs
> have gotten quite a bit better, and in fact, some are quite
> outstanding. For instance, I actually can't stand watching Fullmetal
> Alchemist in Japanese anymore; Ed's (jpn) voice grates on my nerves.
I guess I'm still not suited for AmeriDubs, then. I know it may be
sacrilege to suggest that "the Vic" is anything other than Jesus descended
in voice actor form, but I found the dub for FMA to be tolerable, but not
good enough to replace the japanese track.
sanjian
> Thu, 10 Jul 2008 5:22am-0400, sanjian <mun...@vt.edu>:
>> Might be more accurate to say that the english VAs fit stereotypes
>> we're not particularly fond of. If I wanted to listen to
>> American-styled action heros, I'd watch what oozes out of Hollywood.
>> I'm not very fond of U.S. mass entertainment, so I'd like my
>> alternatives to be... well, actually different.
>>
>> And this is coming from the group's resident Mr. Red, White, and
>> Blue.
>>
>
> That's unpatriotic!
> Next thing you'd say we should speak a 2nd language! ^_^
I'd be happy enough if we could get them to read English.
I still want to know who that chick Obama was talking about is... Mercy
Boku? Nurse-themed superheroine?
Dave Watson
Considering that "the Vic" is a God Squaddy, you gotta wonder what
he'd have to say about being called that.
Watson
Dear Jesus, please save him from your followers.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
>
> I still want to know who that chick Obama was talking about is... Mercy
> Boku? Nurse-themed superheroine?
A friend of mine is NAMED "Marcie Bocoup" (she legally changed her name
to that)
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> sanjian wrote:
>
> >
> > I still want to know who that chick Obama was talking about is... Mercy
> > Boku? Nurse-themed superheroine?
>
> A friend of mine is NAMED "Marcie Bocoup" (she legally changed her
> name to that)
>
When did you legally change your name? ^_^
Laters. =)
STan
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
The FMA dub actually used a real child,
not just an obasan re-living her childhood! ^_^
Jack Bohn
>sanjian wrote:
>
>>
>> I still want to know who that chick Obama was talking about is... Mercy
>> Boku? Nurse-themed superheroine?
>
> A friend of mine is NAMED "Marcie Bocoup" (she legally changed her name
>to that)
Normally, I consider making fun of names to be punishing people
for the sins of their parents, but now she's fair game!
(Spending the money for something frivolous like that. She's
gotta have bookoo bucks.)
--
-Jack
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Thu, 10 Jul 2008 6:06pm-0400, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.inval...:
>
>> sanjian wrote:
>>
>>> I still want to know who that chick Obama was talking about is... Mercy
>>> Boku? Nurse-themed superheroine?
>> A friend of mine is NAMED "Marcie Bocoup" (she legally changed her
>> name to that)
>>
>
> When did you legally change your name? ^_^
Didn't have to.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
No, it didn't cost her hardly anything. And it wasn't frivolous; she
never liked her real last name and her nickname for many years had been
Marcie Beaucoup (I misspelled it for some reason up there), so she
figured she might as well just make that her name.
We have, here on r.a.a.m, an example of a more extreme shift --
Megazone, who really IS named that now. And there was the one soldier
sent overseas who was named "Optimus Prime".
sanjian
> Thu, 10 Jul 2008 4:58pm-0400, sanjian <mun...@vt.edu>:
>> I guess I'm still not suited for AmeriDubs, then. I know it may be
>> sacrilege to suggest that "the Vic" is anything other than Jesus
>> descended in voice actor form, but I found the dub for FMA to be
>> tolerable, but not good enough to replace the japanese track.
>>
>
> The FMA dub actually used a real child,
> not just an obasan re-living her childhood! ^_^
Doesn't always mean that the results will be good. Genuine != superior.
8-Bit Star
> To be fair, the new early DBZ dub is deliberately colloquial to fit in with
> the rest of the dub (and also includes a lot of the famous lines from the
> Ocean dub), which was made for TV and yes, is inaccurate in places (it's not
> nice to Bulma, for instance, but then neither was the Japanese filler).
> That's not really representative of dubs as a whole, though, which are made
> for DVD and not TV.
In some ways it is. I noticed similar phenomena happening
in Ranma 1/2 and Devil Hunter Yohko, neither of which
ever aired on US TV.
--Japanese version--
RYOGA: Ranma! I will DESTROY YOUR HAPPINESS!
RANMA: My HAPPINES?!.... Am I happy?
--English version--
RYOGA: Ranma! I will DESTROY YOUR HAPPINESS!
RANMA! My HAPPINESS?!... Akane, tell me somethin', am I happy?
The meaning is essentially the same but I feel the extra
dialogue (which I admit was probably there to fit the lip flap)
ruined the joke.
--Japanese version--
[Ukyo has just finished telling her life story]
UKYO: And so I bent myself to mastering the art of Okinomiyaki!
OFFSCREEN GIRL: Oh, you poor girl!
GENMA: Yes, you poor girl!
--English version--
[Ukyo has just finished telling her life story]
UKYO: And what better way than to practice against the RAGING SEAS!
GUY IN AUDIENCE 1: Raging seas, isn't that kinda pointless?
GUY IN AUDIENCE 2: That's the point, stupid. Don't you watch Samurai
movies?
GENMA: How cruel is the hand of fate?!
Real reason I quoted that one is because I wanted to see
if anyone could explain the dub's joke to me, because after
so many years, I still don't get it.
> The rest is completely subjective opinion. For instance, I think Goku
> sounding like a girl voicing a ten year old (convienently, exactly what the
> voice is) is ridiculous, since I can only assume his testicles dropped
> SOMEWHERE along the line since he had two kids.
Oh yeah, that much is subjective. Personally I can believe he hit
puberty but still sounds like a girl. I've, uhhh, met people like
that. I mean, who are really like that, they're not faking it.
That being said, when I'm reading the comics in English, I do
imagine Goku with a certain Super Fighting Robot's voice.
Blade
> On Jul 10, 6:43 am, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> To be fair, the new early DBZ dub is deliberately colloquial to fit in
>> with
>> the rest of the dub (and also includes a lot of the famous lines from the
>> Ocean dub), which was made for TV and yes, is inaccurate in places (it's
>> not
>> nice to Bulma, for instance, but then neither was the Japanese filler).
>> That's not really representative of dubs as a whole, though, which are
>> made
>> for DVD and not TV.
>
> In some ways it is. I noticed similar phenomena happening
> in Ranma 1/2 and Devil Hunter Yohko, neither of which
> ever aired on US TV.
Both of which were dubbed more than ten years ago. The topic of the
conversation is newer dubs.
> --Japanese version--
> [Ukyo has just finished telling her life story]
> UKYO: And so I bent myself to mastering the art of Okinomiyaki!
> OFFSCREEN GIRL: Oh, you poor girl!
> GENMA: Yes, you poor girl!
>
> --English version--
> [Ukyo has just finished telling her life story]
> UKYO: And what better way than to practice against the RAGING SEAS!
> GUY IN AUDIENCE 1: Raging seas, isn't that kinda pointless?
> GUY IN AUDIENCE 2: That's the point, stupid. Don't you watch Samurai
> movies?
> GENMA: How cruel is the hand of fate?!
>
> Real reason I quoted that one is because I wanted to see
> if anyone could explain the dub's joke to me, because after
> so many years, I still don't get it.
Umm...
The joke would be that people train against raging seas in samurai movies?
And that that is, when you think about it, sort of pointless?
-
Blade
Derek Janssen
> "8-Bit Star" <nes...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8c76df86-152b-4db4...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>>On Jul 10, 6:43 am, "Blade" <kumonr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>To be fair, the new early DBZ dub is deliberately colloquial to fit in
>>>with
>>>the rest of the dub (and also includes a lot of the famous lines from the
>>>Ocean dub), which was made for TV and yes, is inaccurate in places (it's
>>>not
>>>nice to Bulma, for instance, but then neither was the Japanese filler).
>>>That's not really representative of dubs as a whole, though, which are
>>>made
>>>for DVD and not TV.
>>
>>In some ways it is. I noticed similar phenomena happening
>>in Ranma 1/2 and Devil Hunter Yohko, neither of which
>>ever aired on US TV.
>
>
> Both of which were dubbed more than ten years ago. The topic of the
> conversation is newer dubs.
Which weren't done at Ocean, as most of the early ones such as Ranma and
DBZ were.
>>--Japanese version--
>>[Ukyo has just finished telling her life story]
>>UKYO: And so I bent myself to mastering the art of Okinomiyaki!
>>OFFSCREEN GIRL: Oh, you poor girl!
>>GENMA: Yes, you poor girl!
>>
>>--English version--
>>[Ukyo has just finished telling her life story]
>>UKYO: And what better way than to practice against the RAGING SEAS!
>>GUY IN AUDIENCE 1: Raging seas, isn't that kinda pointless?
>>GUY IN AUDIENCE 2: That's the point, stupid. Don't you watch Samurai
>>movies?
>>GENMA: How cruel is the hand of fate?!
>>
>>Real reason I quoted that one is because I wanted to see
>>if anyone could explain the dub's joke to me, because after
>>so many years, I still don't get it.
>
> Umm...
>
> The joke would be that people train against raging seas in samurai movies?
> And that that is, when you think about it, sort of pointless?
And that it would sound more "epic" if you had been spending all that
time samurai training against the raging seas, and not pancake training?
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Rob Kelk
<eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>Blade wrote:
>
>> "8-Bit Star" <nes...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:8c76df86-152b-4db4...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
>>>--Japanese version--
>>>[Ukyo has just finished telling her life story]
>>>UKYO: And so I bent myself to mastering the art of Okinomiyaki!
>>>OFFSCREEN GIRL: Oh, you poor girl!
>>>GENMA: Yes, you poor girl!
>>>
>>>--English version--
>>>[Ukyo has just finished telling her life story]
>>>UKYO: And what better way than to practice against the RAGING SEAS!
>>>GUY IN AUDIENCE 1: Raging seas, isn't that kinda pointless?
>>>GUY IN AUDIENCE 2: That's the point, stupid. Don't you watch Samurai
>>>movies?
>>>GENMA: How cruel is the hand of fate?!
>>>
>>>Real reason I quoted that one is because I wanted to see
>>>if anyone could explain the dub's joke to me, because after
>>>so many years, I still don't get it.
>>
>> Umm...
>>
>> The joke would be that people train against raging seas in samurai movies?
>> And that that is, when you think about it, sort of pointless?
>
>And that it would sound more "epic" if you had been spending all that
>time samurai training against the raging seas, and not pancake training?
Er... okonomiyaki, not pancake. (Having eaten both okonomiyaki and
Japanese pancake, I know you'd have to be even more oblivious than Ayumu
Kasuga to confuse the two. Yes, I know she has trouble telling the
difference between minced beef and curry; that's a trivial difference
compared to this one.)
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
But it helps! Look at Charlie Brown specials! ^_^
Laters. =)
Stan
Jack Bohn
>Jack Bohn wrote:
>> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" wrote:
>>
>>> A friend of mine is NAMED "Marcie Bocoup" (she legally changed her name
>>> to that)
>>
>> Normally, I consider making fun of names to be punishing people
>> for the sins of their parents, but now she's fair game!
>>
>> (Spending the money for something frivolous like that. She's
>> gotta have bookoo bucks.)
>>
>
> No, it didn't cost her hardly anything. And it wasn't frivolous; she
>never liked her real last name and her nickname for many years had been
>Marcie Beaucoup (I misspelled it for some reason up there), so she
>figured she might as well just make that her name.
<HAL voice> I'm sorry, Wasp. I'm afraid you missed it.</HAL>
That was my making a joke on her name. Any money she has is, by
definition, "beaucoup bucks."
I am deliberately not speculating on what an original name could
be to which she would prefer Marcie Beaucoup. Although I do
wonder about her cousins Marsha Gracias and Jane Q. Verimuch.
> We have, here on r.a.a.m, an example of a more extreme shift --
>Megazone, who really IS named that now. And there was the one soldier
>sent overseas who was named "Optimus Prime".
Well, those aren't even trying. Now, if it were Meg Azone, and
Tim S. Prime... but then he would have to stay a Specialist Op...
--
-Jack
Megane
<7aa07912-0f42-4508...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
8-Bit Star <nes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2. Bad Inflections, putting emphasis on the wrong
> words or syllables, and generally tripping up their
> speech. I'll find a specific example later but I remember
> this being one reason I hated ADV's dubs.
Time for me to mention that one time I saw the dub for Those Who Hunt
Elves. One afternoon at an airport A-Kon, the folks in the hotel room
across the hall from me had their door open and anime on so I wandered
in and sat down. They were playing the VHS of an episode, and the voice
acting was AWFUL. Not merely bad, but almost down to the "I. Am.
Reading. This. Right. Off. Of. The. Script." level of awful. I actually
thought it was a joke fandub until... the credits rolled.
Megane
Aya the Vampire Slayer <ry...@gatech.rmv.this.part.edu> wrote:
> I watched the dub for Full Metal Panic Fumoffu (note: I never watched
> the first season). While Sagara's voice actor was good in almost all
> ways I could ever ask for, THIS is the one point he failed on. And the
> worst part about it? It was his pronunciation of the female lead's name
> that was the culprit. Which is terrible, since he probably says her name
> a hundred times per episode (exaggeration of course, but still).
Also Card Captor saKOOOOOOOra. Argh.
I was quite relieved that the Naruto dub didn't call him naROOOOOOOto.
(though the promo announcer before the first episode did)
Blade
"Megane" <megane#fanbo...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:megane%23fanboy.net-CD15...@news.newsreader.com...
I assume, of course, that you are equally offended in those rare,
practically unheard-of moments where the Japanese dub uses another language
and mangles it beyond recognition.
-
Blade
(Pick me up foxy night game! And Sailor Moon better hurry to save the
MESHYAH!)
sanjian
Why would we need to be? Mangling an engrish word, here or there, is a far
cry different than mangling the main character's name, each and every time.