An anime con pet peeve of mine...
darkst...@gmail.com
Of course, many of these same cons are openly breaking the law by
showing fansubs, but let's not get too into detail on _that_
hypocrisy... I've been throwing that around for several months.
I mean, last year, I actually had the gall to read a con sheet which
said that you didn't come to the con to sleep in your hotel room.
Well, given how I've seen the "no sleeping at the screening rooms"
thing enforced, that's about as much a piece of bullshit as anything
I've ever heard here on USENET.
In fact, when I add that to a lot of stuff I've heard from con center
staff (not the con staff -- but of the place where the event is being
held), I will say openly that it is my firm belief that most of the
outside people find anime fans so annoying and anime cons such a
logistical clusterfuck to hold that the only reason these shows are
even _ALLOWED_ is because of the amount of money that the hotel
revenue and the restaurant revenue bring into the locality.
A couple of examples of what I mean here:
I mean, consider the whole AX debacle last year. The convention was
so slip-shoddily run that it was pretty clear that, at the least, all
parties knew beforehand that they wouldn't be welcome back next year.
(The con has already been run off from Anaheim because of their
refusal to cap registration to any reasoned capacity of the Anaheim
Convention Center and the Anaheim Resort Area -- that's pretty much
been confirmed.) The con center staff basically realized what a lost
cause con security was -- and basically treated everybody heavy-
handedly to make it clear that they didn't want the show back in Long
Beach, and, by the time the third night came, any sane security staff
and head of the Westin in Long Beach would've shut down the entire
operation over there!! (Partially because of the effects of my pet
peeve I'm talking about, but that's something separate I'll address
when I get back to it...)
I was at A-Kon last year too. Actually did decide to get the hotel
room because A-Kon does one of the things that I would say combats
this issue (namely, they *gasp!* shut down the con at a reasonable
hour!!) Spent more time in the hotel room than I did at the con --
even while awake... But the point was that I was able to talk to
several security people at the Plaza of the Americas (adjacent to the
facility where A-Kon is run). Didn't take 30 seconds before they told
me they wished that this show would not be here anymore. Major PITA.
_MAJOR_ PITA.
(Of course, when you realize what a logistical nightmare trying to get
from Point A to Point B in that building complex where A-Kon is held
in Dallas, you realize how big the show has gotten. (Like most of the
other huge shows, FAR FAR TOO BIG.))
Anyway, I'm sure that, if you got a lot of the facility people in a
private moment, they would, for one reason or another, basically state
that these cons are more trouble than they are worth. (Some of the
reasons why (like that they need professionals running these bigger
cons, rather than this "by fans, for fans" shit...) will be saved for
another rant.)
So, back to the pet peeve: It's clear that the "no sleeping in the
screening rooms" rule is to fill hotel space. Without that, most of
these cons would be shown the door, and rudely at that!! I mean, it's
gotten such a peeve of mine that the only reason I would've attended
Fanime this weekend is to get arrested. I would've gotten arrested
this weekend at Fanime. Drop dead guarantee. I just find the rule to
be a piece of shit -- and, if it's a matter of law, then call the
fucking cops.
(Of course, one of the reasons that you don't see more than a token
police presence at even the largest shows is because... well... If
the authorities ever saw some of the shit which went on at these shows
(the bootlegs, the downloads, the fansubs being shown in the screening
rooms, the physical assaults (inappropriate glomping is at least an
assault, if not a sexual assault in some jurisdictions), thefts, etc.
-- and that doesn't even count assaults like Man-Faye), they'd
consider shutting them down.)
And, add to that the fact that basically every large con is just TOO
DAMN BIG (for one reason or another), and you get to the point where
I've been considering some solutions which even the cons wouldn't
like.
(I should know. I've proposed a few...)
1) Stop basically pussy-footing around on it -- people are going to
zonk out someplace unless you basically making zonking out a first-
offense loss of badge and ban from convention. You try holding six
events at 3 AM and not get any interest. (Though I will say that I've
attended more than one convention with 24-hr screenings where I've
been the only person (awake or asleep) in the room for extended
periods of time. Others, I've been the only attendee there.) For
example, at AX last year at the Westin, the first two nights, I
counted more people asleep OUTSIDE THE SCREENING ROOMS than awake in
them. Third night, I had a security guard roughly escort me out of
the building.
2) If anime conventions are only meant for people who can afford to be
there to a certain level of accomodation, force it. It's a private
event -- any reasoned level of "discrimination" is basically allowed.
If you cannot produce a hotel room for the duration of the con plus
enough money to actually attend the convention, you don't get in. If
you don't have a hotel room, you don't get in until you get one and
produce it to the registration people. (Local residents of the area
excepted, although transit considerations might leave even that to be
somewhat desired.)
This not only handles the necessity of a hotel room, but adding the
requirement that you actually have to have resources on hand to
actually attend the show handles that, plus soliciting concerns with
the signs (more and more cons are, for that reason, banning signs from
their events), theft concerns, and other associated problems.
3) The easiest solution would be to understand that screenings
overnight basically serve no purpose but to allow a person to crash.
Any non-adult screenings (especially because of the fact that filling
the hotel space is a requirement for continuance) should be moved to
"dark channels" of the hotel television system. (Several conventions
already do this in their major hotels.)
There is no reason, if you don't want people crashing all over the con
center, to have screenings at 7 AM. None. (Even the hentai material
should be canned about 2 AM or so...) In fact, you could even say
openly: "You want all-night anime?? Buy it at the Dealer's Hall and
go to your own room to watch it!"
Yes, you'll drive people away with these suggestions. (Many would do
so with me.) Fact is, you need to start driving people away from
these shows. That's the only way, short of professionalizing these
shows entirely (which, I guess, would be a 4) ), to start getting
attendance down to prevent AX/Anime Boston reg-line debacles, AX/
Fanime-level security concerns, A-Kon/AX (Long Beach) traffic tie-ups,
etc.
Mike
Astrobiochemist
>
> Of course, many of these same cons are openly breaking the law by
> showing fansubs, but let's not get too into detail on _that_
> hypocrisy... I've been throwing that around for several months.
The statute regarding sleeping in public places is a municipal
criminal law. Copyright infringement in regards to fansubs is a
federal statute and would result in a civil lawsuit. The former would
involve police coming in to the con, the latter, not so much. This is
probably why the con is worried about people sleeping in the video
rooms but not worried about the legality of the video being shown.
However, if the con is of a significant size, showing fansubs would
probably also be a worry at some point, but that's more of a big con
worry than a small con worry. I would be shocked if Otakon or Anime
Expo showed fansubs but if a local college con showed fansubs, I'd be
much less shocked.
darkst...@gmail.com
> > So there's no sleeping in the screening rooms due to law, huh??
>
> > Of course, many of these same cons are openly breaking the law by
> > showing fansubs, but let's not get too into detail on _that_
> > hypocrisy... I've been throwing that around for several months.
>
> The statute regarding sleeping in public places is a municipal
> criminal law. Copyright infringement in regards to fansubs is a
> federal statute and would result in a civil lawsuit. The former would
> involve police coming in to the con, the latter, not so much. This is
> probably why the con is worried about people sleeping in the video
> rooms but not worried about the legality of the video being shown.
I think they're legitimately worried about the police coming in and
seeing what actually goes on at some of these shows -- aside from the
fansubs... I mean, not just the stuff you've heard stories about:
Inappropriate glomping/hugging is, at least, an assault, if not a
_sexual assault_, in many jurisdictions. That's a problem at almost
all cons of any real size.
Many of the western cons are now banning signs outright, as signals of
at least solicitation at cons (one of the reasons that they might want
to go to a means test if they're going to be that insistent about
looking at cons as they might well be), if not advertisements for sex
(will Yaoi for...).
Then there's theft -- then there's bootlegging -- then there's God
knows what else.
> However, if the con is of a significant size, showing fansubs would
> probably also be a worry at some point, but that's more of a big con
> worry than a small con worry. I would be shocked if Otakon or Anime
> Expo showed fansubs but if a local college con showed fansubs, I'd be
> much less shocked.
I know of at least one top-10 attendance con which the bulk of their
material (over the last several years) has been fansubs, yes.
(In fact, it's going on this weekend.)
Funny, though: A trend I'm seeing is that, perhaps led by the anime
downturn -- perhaps by the fansubbers themselves -- is that screening
rooms are beginning to disappear. I thought, at first, shows,
smartly, were doing away with overnight showings.
Now, however, at least one three-day con in California isn't even
showing ANY anime on day three. And only half a day on day two. The
con referenced above? 11 rooms held at least some anime two years
ago. Went down to six rooms last year, and now five.
Mike
Sea Wasp
>Delusionary Chicken Little Starcade Under Another Name wrote:
>>So there's no sleeping in the screening rooms due to law, huh??
>>
>>Of course, many of these same cons are openly breaking the law by
>>showing fansubs, but let's not get too into detail on _that_
>>hypocrisy... I've been throwing that around for several months.
>
>
> The statute regarding sleeping in public places is a municipal
> criminal law. Copyright infringement in regards to fansubs is a
> federal statute and would result in a civil lawsuit. The former would
> involve police coming in to the con, the latter, not so much. This is
> probably why the con is worried about people sleeping in the video
> rooms but not worried about the legality of the video being shown.
As Starky doesn't understand anything in the real world, he also
wouldn't understand that the REAL reason for saying that is to make
sure you have an excuse for ejecting anyone who is trying to use the
open areas of the convention AS living space. It's nothing to do with
the hotel as such.
And he's rather wrong about conventions in general, too. A well-run
anime convention, of which there are many, is often quite popular with
the related hotels. This is true of most conventions, actually; they
provide guaranteed sales.
It's easy to tell if a hotel doesn't like you: they won't give you a
contract for a second year.
>
> However, if the con is of a significant size, showing fansubs would
> probably also be a worry at some point, but that's more of a big con
> worry than a small con worry. I would be shocked if Otakon or Anime
> Expo showed fansubs but if a local college con showed fansubs, I'd be
> much less shocked.
I wouldn't be shocked at all. Fansubbing (like sleeping in a public
place) is 99% a non-issue. It's like speeding: the cops don't even
bother to WARN you about doing 60 or even 65 in a 55MPH zone most of
the time. EVERYONE speeds. Only extreme cases matter even to the cops,
let alone anyone else.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Justice
wrote:
>So there's no sleeping in the screening rooms due to law, huh??
>
>Of course, many of these same cons are openly breaking the law by
>showing fansubs, but let's not get too into detail on _that_
>hypocrisy... I've been throwing that around for several months.
>
Akon was better when the screening rooms showed more fansubs than
commercial releases. At the last Akon i attended, the ONLY fan sub
shown was a very old unlicensed show known as "i'll Make A Habit Of
It" and that show was never completed "fansub-wise" anyway.
Antonio E. Gonzalez
wrote:
>
>I mean, consider the whole AX debacle last year. The convention was
>so slip-shoddily run that it was pretty clear that, at the least, all
>parties knew beforehand that they wouldn't be welcome back next year.
>(The con has already been run off from Anaheim because of their
>refusal to cap registration to any reasoned capacity of the Anaheim
>Convention Center and the Anaheim Resort Area -- that's pretty much
>been confirmed.)
The Shriners got Anaheim for the last two years; having
considerably bigger coffers and reputation, they easily outbid SPJA.
Nothing more sinister, just a money/power issue (not to mention the
Anaheim Resort Area's undergoing renovations recently); it'll likely
be AX Anaheim again come '09 . . .
Farix
> Astrobiochemist wrote:
>
> >Delusionary Chicken Little Starcade Under Another Name wrote:
>>> So there's no sleeping in the screening rooms due to law, huh??
>>>
>>> Of course, many of these same cons are openly breaking the law by
>>> showing fansubs, but let's not get too into detail on _that_
>>> hypocrisy... I've been throwing that around for several months.
>>
>>
>> The statute regarding sleeping in public places is a municipal
>> criminal law. Copyright infringement in regards to fansubs is a
>> federal statute and would result in a civil lawsuit. The former would
>> involve police coming in to the con, the latter, not so much. This is
>> probably why the con is worried about people sleeping in the video
>> rooms but not worried about the legality of the video being shown.
>
> As Starky doesn't understand anything in the real world, he also
> wouldn't understand that the REAL reason for saying that is to make sure
> you have an excuse for ejecting anyone who is trying to use the open
> areas of the convention AS living space. It's nothing to do with the
> hotel as such.
>
> And he's rather wrong about conventions in general, too. A well-run
> anime convention, of which there are many, is often quite popular with
> the related hotels. This is true of most conventions, actually; they
> provide guaranteed sales.
He is also wrong about some of the other issues as well. Gloomping has
always been a concern and con security at most conventions won't
hesitate to confiscate a badge for someone whom they receive complains
about. And the Yaoi paddles are increasingly being banned because of
excessive abuse, the same goes for signage. Conventions have been
cracking down on bootlegs and knock offs for years, though the real
problem is adequate training to identify them. As for shoplifting, that
is something that the vendors must deal with by adequately staffing
their booths.
The biggest problem that cons have to deal with is that there are an
increasing number of people attending that are not there for the anime,
manga or anything else, but are there just to be stupid assholes. And
there isn't much that anyone can really do about them.
> It's easy to tell if a hotel doesn't like you: they won't give you a
> contract for a second year.
Every type of convention has its ugly underbelly. And anime conventions
are no worse then any other.
Farix
darkst...@gmail.com
> As Starky doesn't understand anything in the real world, he also
> wouldn't understand that the REAL reason for saying that is to make
> sure you have an excuse for ejecting anyone who is trying to use the
> open areas of the convention AS living space. It's nothing to do with
> the hotel as such.
Why shouldn't people use it as living space if the convention is a 24-
hour event??
You see, this is where round-the-clock conventions become
nonsensical. If you have six different events and five screening
rooms at 3:00 AM, then people are going to crash, and there's little
you can do to stop them unless you either close down or pull badges
left and right.
Why _SHOULDN'T_ people use the space as "living space", unless, as I
have postulated, the only reason the convention is allowed to exist is
because it brings several million dollars to the local hoteliers and
the like?
> And he's rather wrong about conventions in general, too. A well-run
> anime convention, of which there are many, is often quite popular with
> the related hotels. This is true of most conventions, actually; they
> provide guaranteed sales.
I'd like to know which shows Sea Wasp is talking about, because I have
seen _NO_ representations of that out here in the West. _NONE_. I
can even include A-Kon in that statement.
In fact, again, it is _because_ the shows provide "guaranteed sales"
that they are still around. AX would've been run out of Long Beach
and cancelled last year if the event didn't make the LB area probably
$5M a day, if not more...
Most of the conventions I've been to have been unprofessional, some to
the point of abject incompetence.
> It's easy to tell if a hotel doesn't like you: they won't give you a
> contract for a second year.
Same with convention centers. (Which see the LBCC.)
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> He is also wrong about some of the other issues as well. Gloomping has
> always been a concern and con security at most conventions won't
> hesitate to confiscate a badge for someone whom they receive complains
> about.
Believe me, if the boards of different cons I've read are any
indication, then the security of the convention has _MASSIVELY FAILED_
in that regard. (And, as part of what I said on some of them, I've
gotten some of them to actually agree with that statement.) Get
professional security -- involve the police -- start prosecuting
people for the assaults -- and this starts to go away, but not a
moment before.
> And the Yaoi paddles are increasingly being banned because of
> excessive abuse, the same goes for signage.
Didn't I say this in the original post? Of course, not that Farix
reads anything with any real reason anymore...
> Conventions have been cracking down on bootlegs and knock offs for years, though the real
> problem is adequate training to identify them.
Basically, you just simply do not allow anything you do not recognize
as legit unless the seller can prove it as legit -- if the seller
doesn't like being questioned, he can take his business elsewhere.
Sad thing is, as I said before, there are conventions I've gone to
where bootlegs have been the only video product sold at the event.
> As for shoplifting, that is something that the vendors must deal with by adequately staffing
> their booths.
I can only say "good luck!" to that. I remember making a purchase at
the ADV booth at AX last year, and specifically telling the booth just
that -- there was so much chaos around that all someone had to do was
make sur enough people were looking the wrong direction...
> The biggest problem that cons have to deal with is that there are an
> increasing number of people attending that are not there for the anime,
> manga or anything else, but are there just to be stupid assholes. And
> there isn't much that anyone can really do about them.
Depends on what they're doing that makes you define it that way.
> > It's easy to tell if a hotel doesn't like you: they won't give you a
> > contract for a second year.
>
> Every type of convention has its ugly underbelly. And anime conventions
> are no worse then any other.
Yeah... But I just wanted to expose this one as part of my pet peeve.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> On Thu, 22 May 2008 14:45:10 -0700 (PDT), darkstar7...@gmail.com
No it wasn't. I was actually there last year and enjoyed at least
while I was there. (Spent more time in the remote hotel and en
transit than I did at the event -- so why did I go??) But cons have
to get rid of the fansubs -- they're becoming extraneous to the
process anyway...)
One really has to wonder if screening rooms at shows are just going to
become a thing of the past to begin with.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> On Thu, 22 May 2008 14:45:10 -0700 (PDT), darkstar7...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >I mean, consider the whole AX debacle last year. The convention was
> >so slip-shoddily run that it was pretty clear that, at the least, all
> >parties knew beforehand that they wouldn't be welcome back next year.
> >(The con has already been run off from Anaheim because of their
> >refusal to cap registration to any reasoned capacity of the Anaheim
> >Convention Center and the Anaheim Resort Area -- that's pretty much
> >been confirmed.)
>
> The Shriners got Anaheim for the last two years; having
> considerably bigger coffers and reputation, they easily outbid SPJA.
Yeah, for a con _HALF THE SIZE_ of AX????
If you're right, though -- then that's financial slipshoddiness above
and beyond all else! You've got a show that can offer the entire
Anaheim Resort District DOUBLE THE REVENUE, and you get outbid by the
Shriners??? Makes no mathematical sense!!!
> Nothing more sinister, just a money/power issue (not to mention the
> Anaheim Resort Area's undergoing renovations recently); it'll likely
> be AX Anaheim again come '09 . . .
No. They're planning on staying in the LACC area (hoping to
capitalize on "LA Live")-- that is, of course, if there IS an AX
2009...
Mike (And that might have to do with the anime and US economies as
much as the situation with the SPJA. This could easily be the last
year of the big anime conventions.)
Captain Nerd
Farix <dhstr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> As for shoplifting, that
> is something that the vendors must deal with by adequately staffing
> their booths.
I've noticed at the last two cons I went to, AnimeUSA and Katsucon,
that the dealers rooms now have signs posted saying "you are being
videotaped" and there were one or two visible monitors at some booths.
It's sad that it's come to that, but companies have to take what
measures they can, in order to keep their insurance down and keep
their stock as intact as possible.
Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
Justice
wrote:
>On May 23, 6:52 am, Justice <....@zzz.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 14:45:10 -0700 (PDT), darkstar7...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> >So there's no sleeping in the screening rooms due to law, huh??
>>
>> >Of course, many of these same cons are openly breaking the law by
>> >showing fansubs, but let's not get too into detail on _that_
>> >hypocrisy... I've been throwing that around for several months.
>>
>> Akon was better when the screening rooms showed more fansubs than
>> commercial releases. At the last Akon i attended, the ONLY fan sub
>> shown was a very old unlicensed show known as "i'll Make A Habit Of
>> It" and that show was never completed "fansub-wise" anyway.
>
>No it wasn't. I was actually there last year and enjoyed at least
>while I was there. (Spent more time in the remote hotel and en
>transit than I did at the event -- so why did I go??) But cons have
>to get rid of the fansubs -- they're becoming extraneous to the
>process anyway...)
>
Yes it was. i'm right, you're wrong. go cry in another newsgroup.
darkst...@gmail.com
Mike
Justice
wrote:
>No it wasn't -- or do you steal all your anime too?
>
>Mike
You're the guy that got caught whacking off in the hentai room aren't
ya.
darkst...@gmail.com
> On Fri, 23 May 2008 19:34:12 -0700 (PDT), darkstar7...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> >No it wasn't -- or do you steal all your anime too?
> You're the guy that got caught whacking off in the hentai room aren't
> ya.
I avoid the hentai rooms intentionally.
What, you afraid of company??
Mike
Justice
wrote:
>On May 23, 7:54 pm, Justice <....@zzz.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 May 2008 19:34:12 -0700 (PDT), darkstar7...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> >No it wasn't -- or do you steal all your anime too?
>
>> You're the guy that got caught whacking off in the hentai room aren't
>> ya.
>
>I avoid the hentai rooms intentionally.
>
More like you have been banned from them since you got caught waxing
the dolphin. Right? Right?
I have heard about you....
darkst...@gmail.com
> More like you have been banned from them since you got caught waxing
> the dolphin. Right? Right?
>
> I have heard about you....
You have??
Then you should know that's not true.
If you've heard about me, then you've heard probably enough that
should have me banned from every convention in the country.
No fucking joke.
Mike
Justice
wrote:
Oh, so now you admit to stroking it in the hentai room...thanks for
the clarification.
Astrobiochemist
> increasing number of people attending that are not there for the anime,
> manga or anything else, but are there just to be stupid assholes. And
> there isn't much that anyone can really do about them.
You know, that just perfectly sums up something I've observed as
well. When I was helping out at a small convention last year, the
biggest problem we had was with people who had come but weren't really
taking part in anything. They weren't watching anime, they weren't
buying goods at the dealers room, they weren't going to panels, they
weren't meeting guests, they weren't playing video games or other
games. They were just THERE. At the time, I figured it was because a
number of them were kids whose parents had dropped them off, thinking
it was a good way to get rid of their kids for the day but there were
also some people who were adults and came to the convention, despite
no obvious interest in any of the activities that were going on.
Needless to say, these people were the ones causing most of the
problems at the convention.
darkst...@gmail.com
> You know, that just perfectly sums up something I've observed as
> well. When I was helping out at a small convention last year, the
> biggest problem we had was with people who had come but weren't really
> taking part in anything. They weren't watching anime, they weren't
> buying goods at the dealers room, they weren't going to panels, they
> weren't meeting guests, they weren't playing video games or other
> games. They were just THERE. At the time, I figured it was because a
> number of them were kids whose parents had dropped them off, thinking
> it was a good way to get rid of their kids for the day but there were
> also some people who were adults and came to the convention, despite
> no obvious interest in any of the activities that were going on.
>
> Needless to say, these people were the ones causing most of the
> problems at the convention.
Here's another interesting way to cut the chaff out of a convention:
Force people to buy from the Dealer's Room. Now, this won't work at a
major con, since the Dealers' Rooms are overcrowded anyway, and
forcing people to buy just increases the overcrowding. Might not work
at an event either where the Dealers' Room has four vendors...
But, in the same vein of compelling a degree of resources necessary to
attend the convention, perhaps, in the right con, tacking on an extra
$25 to be spent at the Dealers' Room (as a condition of attendance)
might not only get rid of some of the chaff, but also to get rid of
people doing the con on the cheap.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> >If you've heard about me, then you've heard probably enough that
> >should have me banned from every convention in the country.
>
> >No fucking joke.
> Oh, so now you admit to stroking it in the hentai room...thanks for
> the clarification.
Hahah... No. Worse...
Mike
Astrobiochemist
> Force people to buy from the Dealer's Room. Now, this won't work at a
> major con, since the Dealers' Rooms are overcrowded anyway, and
> forcing people to buy just increases the overcrowding. Might not work
> at an event either where the Dealers' Room has four vendors...
>
> But, in the same vein of compelling a degree of resources necessary to
> attend the convention, perhaps, in the right con, tacking on an extra
> $25 to be spent at the Dealers' Room (as a condition of attendance)
> might not only get rid of some of the chaff, but also to get rid of
> people doing the con on the cheap.
No, that would just be insane.
Plenty of people go for cons and don't purchase items at the Dealers'
Room. That doesn't mean the person is just loitering at the
convention. They could be going to panels or even presenting panels
or going to video rooms or any of the many other things that can be
done at a convention. There is no reason to force people to make what
may already be an expensive weekend even more expensive, even to the
point of being cost prohibitive.
darkst...@gmail.com
> > Here's another interesting way to cut the chaff out of a convention:
> > Force people to buy from the Dealer's Room. Now, this won't work at a
> > major con, since the Dealers' Rooms are overcrowded anyway, and
> > forcing people to buy just increases the overcrowding. Might not work
> > at an event either where the Dealers' Room has four vendors...
>
> > But, in the same vein of compelling a degree of resources necessary to
> > attend the convention, perhaps, in the right con, tacking on an extra
> > $25 to be spent at the Dealers' Room (as a condition of attendance)
> > might not only get rid of some of the chaff, but also to get rid of
> > people doing the con on the cheap.
>
> No, that would just be insane.
Why?
> Plenty of people go for cons and don't purchase items at the Dealers'
> Room. That doesn't mean the person is just loitering at the
> convention. They could be going to panels or even presenting panels
> or going to video rooms or any of the many other things that can be
> done at a convention. There is no reason to force people to make what
> may already be an expensive weekend even more expensive, even to the
> point of being cost prohibitive.
Part of the point of this is to state that those who choose not to get
hotel rooms (coming from any real distance) are not welcome at the con
in the first place -- the con is already cost-prohibitive and many
I've talked to about this subject wouldn't mind it being declared so.
I mean, the next time I hear "an anime con is a luxury", I'll throw
this idea on 'em. Frankly, it might actually serve as a deterrent to
just the type of people you are talking about.
Either make it worth it for the con to be put on, or GTFO.
You see, the whole point of this is to reduce attendance, by the
number of people who it would not be worth it for the con to retain
(whatever that number might be). Most of these larger cons are way
too damn big (some for security, some for organization, some for
traffic concerns in the hall, some for registration hangups).
Now, that won't be the case much longer (as I said, for a couple of
reasons, I do believe this is the last year of the big shows)...
Mike
Astrobiochemist
> > > Force people to buy from the Dealer's Room. Now, this won't work at a
> > > major con, since the Dealers' Rooms are overcrowded anyway, and
> > > forcing people to buy just increases the overcrowding. Might not work
> > > at an event either where the Dealers' Room has four vendors...
>
> > > But, in the same vein of compelling a degree of resources necessary to
> > > attend the convention, perhaps, in the right con, tacking on an extra
> > > $25 to be spent at the Dealers' Room (as a condition of attendance)
> > > might not only get rid of some of the chaff, but also to get rid of
> > > people doing the con on the cheap.
>
> > No, that would just be insane.
>
> Why?
For the reasons stated below. ;)
> > Plenty of people go for cons and don't purchase items at the Dealers'
> > Room. That doesn't mean the person is just loitering at the
> > convention. They could be going to panels or even presenting panels
> > or going to video rooms or any of the many other things that can be
> > done at a convention. There is no reason to force people to make what
> > may already be an expensive weekend even more expensive, even to the
> > point of being cost prohibitive.
>
> Part of the point of this is to state that those who choose not to get
> hotel rooms (coming from any real distance) are not welcome at the con
> in the first place -- the con is already cost-prohibitive and many
> I've talked to about this subject wouldn't mind it being declared so.
I don't grant the premise that cons wish to prevent anyone from
coming. However, letting people sleep at a convention is not a
serviceable idea. While this doesn't require a hotel room, this does
mean that a person would have to find an alternate place to stay
during a convention when they need to sleep. While often this is a
hotel room, cheaper options exist, such as hostels or finding local
anime fans who are able to host people. I even know people who have
stayed up for extended periods of times so they wouldn't have to sleep
during a convention but 1) that's very difficult to do and 2) for
conventions that are closed for periods of time, you have to figure
out what to do during that time.
Yes, the largest cost of an anime convention is often the hotel but
considering how prevalent anime conventions are, if you live within a
few hours driving distance of a large city, you can go to a convention
without paying for a hotel.
> I mean, the next time I hear "an anime con is a luxury", I'll throw
> this idea on 'em. Frankly, it might actually serve as a deterrent to
> just the type of people you are talking about.
Considering the price of an anime convention already, I have no idea
why some of the people who go to anime conventions only to loiter do
so. Cost considerations vary too much from person to person in order
to determine what type of price increase would eliminate loiterers
from the convention and still allow the average person to afford to
go.
> Either make it worth it for the con to be put on, or GTFO.
>
> You see, the whole point of this is to reduce attendance, by the
> number of people who it would not be worth it for the con to retain
> (whatever that number might be). Most of these larger cons are way
> too damn big (some for security, some for organization, some for
> traffic concerns in the hall, some for registration hangups).
I would agree that some conventions seem to be much too large for what
currently can be supported but I don't think there is any convention
that is insurmountably overcrowded. A city may need to have more
hotels or increase public transportation or a convention may have to
reorganize how their staff is structured but as long as a convention
center can hold the number of attendees, it is possible for a
convention to support that many people.
> Now, that won't be the case much longer (as I said, for a couple of
> reasons, I do believe this is the last year of the big shows)...
There is no doubt in my mind that the major anime conventions will
continue for several more years at least.
David Nakamoto
As one who was and is interested in Anime , and who attended his first
convention on a day to day basis paying at the door, then pre-paying
registration, my impression is that if you want to control the crowd,
then have only so many people attend. Make it 70% prepaid and 30%
pay-at-the-door. Limit both to some manageable number. Exclude the
rest. This is what you have to do if you have limited convention space
and many more people than can be managed willing to come.
And spread the word out a year before the event. Don't wait.
--- Dave
Farix
>> Here's another interesting way to cut the chaff out of a convention:
>> Force people to buy from the Dealer's Room. Now, this won't work at a
>> major con, since the Dealers' Rooms are overcrowded anyway, and
>> forcing people to buy just increases the overcrowding. Might not work
>> at an event either where the Dealers' Room has four vendors...
>>
>> But, in the same vein of compelling a degree of resources necessary to
>> attend the convention, perhaps, in the right con, tacking on an extra
>> $25 to be spent at the Dealers' Room (as a condition of attendance)
>> might not only get rid of some of the chaff, but also to get rid of
>> people doing the con on the cheap.
>
> No, that would just be insane.
Don't bother with Mikey. He has already proven himself to be unable to
use logic or reason.
Farix
darkst...@gmail.com
> > Part of the point of this is to state that those who choose not to get
> > hotel rooms (coming from any real distance) are not welcome at the con
> > in the first place -- the con is already cost-prohibitive and many
> > I've talked to about this subject wouldn't mind it being declared so.
>
> I don't grant the premise that cons wish to prevent anyone from
> coming.
Then, frankly, they should wish to do so.
> However, letting people sleep at a convention is not a
> serviceable idea. While this doesn't require a hotel room, this does
> mean that a person would have to find an alternate place to stay
> during a convention when they need to sleep. While often this is a
> hotel room, cheaper options exist, such as hostels or finding local
> anime fans who are able to host people.
You're talking about not the most social creatures on the planet here.
Additionally, I find it just completely out of whack that a convention
would hold screenings, dances, karaoke, and God knows what at 3 AM and
not expect that somebody is going to conk out.
There is zero purpose to have any room of a con open at 5 AM and not
expect someone to pass out therein.
> I even know people who have
> stayed up for extended periods of times so they wouldn't have to sleep
> during a convention but 1) that's very difficult to do and 2) for
> conventions that are closed for periods of time, you have to figure
> out what to do during that time.
#2 should be the preferred option -- basically, you have to leave the
premises and either find a way to waste the time or never have gone in
the first place.
> Yes, the largest cost of an anime convention is often the hotel but
> considering how prevalent anime conventions are, if you live within a
> few hours driving distance of a large city, you can go to a convention
> without paying for a hotel.
Umm, no. At some point, if that rule is going to be enforced, you
either have to have a hotel (losing about a half-day of the convention
per night stayed), or you need public transit home. That's going to
have you removed from the con, one way or another, probably half of
each day anyway. And why did you go to the con again?
> > I mean, the next time I hear "an anime con is a luxury", I'll throw
> > this idea on 'em. Frankly, it might actually serve as a deterrent to
> > just the type of people you are talking about.
>
> Considering the price of an anime convention already, I have no idea
> why some of the people who go to anime conventions only to loiter do
> so. Cost considerations vary too much from person to person in order
> to determine what type of price increase would eliminate loiterers
> from the convention and still allow the average person to afford to
> go.
That medium point probably has to be found, though. That medium might
be alleviated somewhat by making part of the mandatory money to enter
dealer's room money.
> > Either make it worth it for the con to be put on, or GTFO.
>
> > You see, the whole point of this is to reduce attendance, by the
> > number of people who it would not be worth it for the con to retain
> > (whatever that number might be). Most of these larger cons are way
> > too damn big (some for security, some for organization, some for
> > traffic concerns in the hall, some for registration hangups).
>
> I would agree that some conventions seem to be much too large for what
> currently can be supported but I don't think there is any convention
> that is insurmountably overcrowded.
AX has been run out of Anaheim and Long Beach due to overcrowding and
other factors.
A-Kon... Have you ever tried to get from one point of the Conference
Center adjacent to what was the Adams Mark to another during that con?
You heard about what happened at this year's Anime Boston, did you
not??
> A city may need to have more
> hotels or increase public transportation or a convention may have to
> reorganize how their staff is structured but as long as a convention
> center can hold the number of attendees, it is possible for a
> convention to support that many people.
And there's where we disagree. (Especially with amateur staffs.) If
professionals took over the mega-cons like AX and Otakon, I might
think you would have a better shot at this.
> > Now, that won't be the case much longer (as I said, for a couple of
> > reasons, I do believe this is the last year of the big shows)...
>
> There is no doubt in my mind that the major anime conventions will
> continue for several more years at least.
I don't think the general economy is going to hold that as plausible.
I mean, consider: How much is it going to cost for gas in one year?
Memorial Day 2009...
If what happens just with that is what I think is going to happen,
these cons are going to have a hard time coming up with enough funds
themselves to continue.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
wrote:
> As one who was and is interested in Anime , and who attended his first
> convention on a day to day basis paying at the door, then pre-paying
> registration, my impression is that if you want to control the crowd,
> then have only so many people attend. Make it 70% prepaid and 30%
> pay-at-the-door. Limit both to some manageable number. Exclude the
> rest. This is what you have to do if you have limited convention space
> and many more people than can be managed willing to come.
And here's the thing: You're right -- but these supposedly "not for
profit" cons basically think it terrible business to do so.
If AX had done this before the 2006 or 2007 cons, they might still be
in Anaheim -- in fact, that's one of the major stories I've heard
about why they were finally shown out.
A reg cap is a very smart thing to do -- in fact, for more than a few
of these shows, it's an abject necessity. I'm shocked, for example,
that A-Kon hasn't been shut down by the fire marshals.
But the thing is, if they're not going to do that, they at least have
to (in a way which will make sense and be lawful) make "dis-welcome"
just enough people who they might consider threats (even just to the
ability of the con to negotiate further deals with the venue) to the
convention.
And you've seen some of my ideas here in the thread.
Mike
Farix
>> Part of the point of this is to state that those who choose not to get
>> hotel rooms (coming from any real distance) are not welcome at the con
>> in the first place -- the con is already cost-prohibitive and many
>> I've talked to about this subject wouldn't mind it being declared so.
>
> I don't grant the premise that cons wish to prevent anyone from
> coming. However, letting people sleep at a convention is not a
> serviceable idea. While this doesn't require a hotel room, this does
> mean that a person would have to find an alternate place to stay
> during a convention when they need to sleep. While often this is a
> hotel room, cheaper options exist, such as hostels or finding local
> anime fans who are able to host people. I even know people who have
> stayed up for extended periods of times so they wouldn't have to sleep
> during a convention but 1) that's very difficult to do and 2) for
> conventions that are closed for periods of time, you have to figure
> out what to do during that time.
Well, Mikey's idea is stupid to begin with. At our local con, the
overwhelming majority of attendees are day-trippers and I seriously
doubt that is something particularly unique to your area.
> Yes, the largest cost of an anime convention is often the hotel but
> considering how prevalent anime conventions are, if you live within a
> few hours driving distance of a large city, you can go to a convention
> without paying for a hotel.
It's not so much the hotel/convention space anymore as it is all of the
guests and special events.
>> I mean, the next time I hear "an anime con is a luxury", I'll throw
>> this idea on 'em. Frankly, it might actually serve as a deterrent to
>> just the type of people you are talking about.
>
> Considering the price of an anime convention already, I have no idea
> why some of the people who go to anime conventions only to loiter do
> so. Cost considerations vary too much from person to person in order
> to determine what type of price increase would eliminate loiterers
> from the convention and still allow the average person to afford to
> go.
Its a big social event (i.e. party) to them. It may be to a convention's
benefit to tone down the party atmosphere by reducing or eliminating
dances, cosplay events, and concerts. But the convention will catch
flack if they ever do.
>> Either make it worth it for the con to be put on, or GTFO.
>>
>> You see, the whole point of this is to reduce attendance, by the
>> number of people who it would not be worth it for the con to retain
>> (whatever that number might be). Most of these larger cons are way
>> too damn big (some for security, some for organization, some for
>> traffic concerns in the hall, some for registration hangups).
>
> I would agree that some conventions seem to be much too large for what
> currently can be supported but I don't think there is any convention
> that is insurmountably overcrowded. A city may need to have more
> hotels or increase public transportation or a convention may have to
> reorganize how their staff is structured but as long as a convention
> center can hold the number of attendees, it is possible for a
> convention to support that many people.
>
>> Now, that won't be the case much longer (as I said, for a couple of
>> reasons, I do believe this is the last year of the big shows)...
>
> There is no doubt in my mind that the major anime conventions will
> continue for several more years at least.
No only is Mikey predicting the death of the anime industry, he is now
predicting the death of the anime conventions. *roll eyes*
Farix
darkst...@gmail.com
> Well, Mikey's idea is stupid to begin with. At our local con, the
> overwhelming majority of attendees are day-trippers and I seriously
> doubt that is something particularly unique to your area.
Well, that might be true for the local cons, but once you get to the
bigger ones which basically become clusters...
Obviously, some degree of local residency would be allowed, but the
level of transit might become an issue. Take this year's AX for
example. If you don't have a car or a close hotel, you might as well
not be coming -- once the Blue Line shuts down, it gets real
interesting. Far too interesting...
> > Yes, the largest cost of an anime convention is often the hotel but
> > considering how prevalent anime conventions are, if you live within a
> > few hours driving distance of a large city, you can go to a convention
> > without paying for a hotel.
>
> It's not so much the hotel/convention space anymore as it is all of the
> guests and special events.
Especially with the travel costs involved. And you want to claim it
ridiculous that anime cons (at least the big ones) might be a thing of
the past?? You're on drugs, and I still await your lawsuit.
I mean, seriously: Let's say you plan on bringing a certain guest
from a long distance, and the cost to bring that guest -- doubles???
(Which would probably mean that the costs for the people who are
coming to the show might increase by a similar factor, decreasing your
revenue stream both ways...)
> Its a big social event (i.e. party) to them. It may be to a convention's
> benefit to tone down the party atmosphere by reducing or eliminating
> dances, cosplay events, and concerts. But the convention will catch
> flack if they ever do.
Exactly -- and it would be to many cons' benefit to allow that to
reduce attendance.
The cosplay stuff will probably be the last to go.
> >> Now, that won't be the case much longer (as I said, for a couple of
> >> reasons, I do believe this is the last year of the big shows)...
>
> > There is no doubt in my mind that the major anime conventions will
> > continue for several more years at least.
>
> No only is Mikey predicting the death of the anime industry, he is now
> predicting the death of the anime conventions. *roll eyes*
Yes, I am. I'll ask you the same question I asked Astrobiochemist:
How much is it going to cost for gas in one year? Memorial Day
2009...
Mike (I don't think $5.50 - $6 is unreasonable to expect.)
Sea Wasp
>>Here's another interesting way to cut the chaff out of a convention:
>>Force people to buy from the Dealer's Room. Now, this won't work at a
>>major con, since the Dealers' Rooms are overcrowded anyway, and
>>forcing people to buy just increases the overcrowding. Might not work
>>at an event either where the Dealers' Room has four vendors...
>>
>>But, in the same vein of compelling a degree of resources necessary to
>>attend the convention, perhaps, in the right con, tacking on an extra
>>$25 to be spent at the Dealers' Room (as a condition of attendance)
>>might not only get rid of some of the chaff, but also to get rid of
>>people doing the con on the cheap.
>
>
> No, that would just be insane.
Well, yeah, but this is Starcade you're talking to. He doesn't
understand sanity very well. At best he's passed it with a nod, in a
dark alley, both of them keeping their collars up and not really
looking at each other.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
David Nakamoto
>
>
> You heard about what happened at this year's Anime Boston, did you
> not??
>
--- Dave
darkst...@gmail.com
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > You heard about what happened at this year's Anime Boston, did you
> > not??
>
> What happened ?
Registration lines which were literally taking upwards of an entire
convention day (quite literally), causing many more to turn away from
the event.
Mike
David Nakamoto
Yikes! And I thought standing in line for three hours, when you're
PREPAID too, to receive your material to attend an Anime Expo once,
because they didn't have enough people manning the registration, was the
worse. ALL DAY ?! Sheesh !
Someone once recommended that these cons hire a professional group to
organize and man such things as registration, or at least manage them.
Due to cost (yeah, right, turning away tons of people is saving money)
and perhaps some arrogance on the part of the convention organizers,
this suggestion died on the vine, and I suspect the organizers will not
stop their mismanagement of things even if the convention runs itself
into the ground.
--- Dave
Farix
> darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On May 25, 9:47 am, David Nakamoto <david.nakam...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> You heard about what happened at this year's Anime Boston, did you
>>>> not??
>>>>
>>> What happened ?
>>>
>>
>> Registration lines which were literally taking upwards of an entire
>> convention day (quite literally), causing many more to turn away from
>> the event.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
> Yikes! And I thought standing in line for three hours, when you're
> PREPAID too, to receive your material to attend an Anime Expo once,
> because they didn't have enough people manning the registration, was the
> worse. ALL DAY ?! Sheesh !
Anime Boston's problem was that they were using an untested badge
printing system that allowed attendees to enter their data into the
system directly, but AB didn't account for the shear number of people
who simply didn't know how to type or took forever to decided what name
they wanted printed on their badge.
> Someone once recommended that these cons hire a professional group to
> organize and man such things as registration, or at least manage them.
> Due to cost (yeah, right, turning away tons of people is saving money)
> and perhaps some arrogance on the part of the convention organizers,
> this suggestion died on the vine, and I suspect the organizers will not
> stop their mismanagement of things even if the convention runs itself
> into the ground.
There was one "professionally" ran convention in Philadelphia, PA last
year called TandokuCon. "Professionally" as in that it was ran by an
event planning firm instead of anime fans who have worked at other
conventions. It turned out that the convention was a complete failure as
the professional event planner had no clue as to what they were doing
and refused all help and advice from the other established conventions
in the region.
So just because a convention is ran by a professional group doesn't mean
that the convention will be ran any better.
Farix
David Nakamoto
> David Nakamoto wrote:
>> darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On May 25, 9:47 am, David Nakamoto <david.nakam...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You heard about what happened at this year's Anime Boston, did you
>>>>> not??
>>>>>
>>>> What happened ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Registration lines which were literally taking upwards of an entire
>>> convention day (quite literally), causing many more to turn away from
>>> the event.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>
>> Yikes! And I thought standing in line for three hours, when you're
>> PREPAID too, to receive your material to attend an Anime Expo once,
>> because they didn't have enough people manning the registration, was
>> the worse. ALL DAY ?! Sheesh !
>
> Anime Boston's problem was that they were using an untested badge
> printing system that allowed attendees to enter their data into the
> system directly, but AB didn't account for the shear number of people
> who simply didn't know how to type or took forever to decided what
> name they wanted printed on their badge.
beforehand. More mismanagement and disorganization. Same thing again.
>
>> Someone once recommended that these cons hire a professional group to
>> organize and man such things as registration, or at least manage
>> them. Due to cost (yeah, right, turning away tons of people is
>> saving money) and perhaps some arrogance on the part of the
>> convention organizers, this suggestion died on the vine, and I
>> suspect the organizers will not stop their mismanagement of things
>> even if the convention runs itself into the ground.
>
> There was one "professionally" ran convention in Philadelphia, PA last
> year called TandokuCon. "Professionally" as in that it was ran by an
> event planning firm instead of anime fans who have worked at other
> conventions. It turned out that the convention was a complete failure
> as the professional event planner had no clue as to what they were
> doing and refused all help and advice from the other established
> conventions in the region.
>
> So just because a convention is ran by a professional group doesn't
> mean that the convention will be ran any better.
>
> Farix
The technical aspects of running the convention should be run
professionally, if not by a professional company, to keep things
efficient and under control. They have more experience, and know what
works and not. The content of the convention should be dictate and run
by the usual people. No one really gripes strongly about the content of
the majority of activities at a con, but we've all experienced major
flaws in how the con was run, con after con.
It's amazing that some cons, after so many years, still have not learned
from their experiences, or learned from others.
--- Dave
darkst...@gmail.com
> Farix wrote:
> > David Nakamoto wrote:
> >>> On May 25, 9:47 am, David Nakamoto <david.nakam...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>>> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >>>>> You heard about what happened at this year's Anime Boston, did you
> >>>>> not??
>
> >>>> What happened ?
>
> >>> Registration lines which were literally taking upwards of an entire
> >>> convention day (quite literally), causing many more to turn away from
> >>> the event.
>
> >>> Mike
>
> >> Yikes! And I thought standing in line for three hours, when you're
> >> PREPAID too, to receive your material to attend an Anime Expo once,
> >> because they didn't have enough people manning the registration, was
> >> the worse. ALL DAY ?! Sheesh !
>
> > Anime Boston's problem was that they were using an untested badge
> > printing system that allowed attendees to enter their data into the
> > system directly, but AB didn't account for the shear number of people
> > who simply didn't know how to type or took forever to decided what
> > name they wanted printed on their badge.
First, you have to understand that you have to *test these things
beforehand* and make sure they're ready to go. If you can't do that,
you have no business running a con the size you expect, no less much
larger, due to whatever factors "helped" Anime Boston go far above and
beyond what they expected.
> So no one to watch over them and hurry things up, or give instructions
> beforehand. More mismanagement and disorganization. Same thing again.
If there's one thing I've noticed, anime conventions are horribly
organized. How the Japanese (as an anime industry) and the convention
centers over here put up with this shit is anyone's guess.
It really seems as if even some of the bigger shows are put together
with duct tape and wire.
> >> Someone once recommended that these cons hire a professional group to
> >> organize and man such things as registration, or at least manage
> >> them. Due to cost (yeah, right, turning away tons of people is
> >> saving money) and perhaps some arrogance on the part of the
> >> convention organizers, this suggestion died on the vine, and I
> >> suspect the organizers will not stop their mismanagement of things
> >> even if the convention runs itself into the ground.
Because they're too proud and, frankly, have no understanding of the
responsibilities because they're so harried in just putting on the
show, they have no real idea of what they are really doing except in
hoping that the system will stay in place.
All it takes is a couple people really wanting to fuck shit up, and
shit is going to get fucked up rather quickly.
> > There was one "professionally" ran convention in Philadelphia, PA last
> > year called TandokuCon. "Professionally" as in that it was ran by an
> > event planning firm instead of anime fans who have worked at other
> > conventions. It turned out that the convention was a complete failure
> > as the professional event planner had no clue as to what they were
> > doing and refused all help and advice from the other established
> > conventions in the region.
Because they failed to do their job, probably. If they are a real
professional firm, they'll take the time to understand what it is they
are getting into and plan accordingly. Otherwise, they end up no
better than the amateurs.
> > So just because a convention is ran by a professional group doesn't
> > mean that the convention will be ran any better.
> The technical aspects of running the convention should be run
> professionally, if not by a professional company, to keep things
> efficient and under control. They have more experience, and know what
> works and not. The content of the convention should be dictate and run
> by the usual people. No one really gripes strongly about the content of
> the majority of activities at a con, but we've all experienced major
> flaws in how the con was run, con after con.
Yeah. As I said: If certain rules violations are such an issue, for
whatever reason or another, individual con-staff are not going to be
able to fix it. In fact, you could say that the same type of problem
could result: If a professional group actually saw how anime fans
acted, or such, they could say "We're shutting this thing down on our
own until 8 AM -- damn the consequences. Everybody out."
> It's amazing that some cons, after so many years, still have not learned
> from their experiences, or learned from others.
I truly think the shows are scared of letting the outside world see
what goes on -- they probably would not be welcome back, in most
cases.
Mike
Antonio E. Gonzalez
wrote:
>On May 23, 8:53 am, Antonio E. Gonzalez <AntEGM...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 14:45:10 -0700 (PDT), darkstar7...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >I mean, consider the whole AX debacle last year. The convention was
>> >so slip-shoddily run that it was pretty clear that, at the least, all
>> >parties knew beforehand that they wouldn't be welcome back next year.
>> >(The con has already been run off from Anaheim because of their
>> >refusal to cap registration to any reasoned capacity of the Anaheim
>> >Convention Center and the Anaheim Resort Area -- that's pretty much
>> >been confirmed.)
>>
>> The Shriners got Anaheim for the last two years; having
>> considerably bigger coffers and reputation, they easily outbid SPJA.
>
>Yeah, for a con _HALF THE SIZE_ of AX????
>
>If you're right, though -- then that's financial slipshoddiness above
>and beyond all else! You've got a show that can offer the entire
>Anaheim Resort District DOUBLE THE REVENUE, and you get outbid by the
>Shriners??? Makes no mathematical sense!!!
>
Yeah, couldn't *possibly* have anything to do with The Shriners
standing as one of the oldest organizations in the US; they want
con-space, they *get* con-space! This along with the many other
conventions that tag along in the massive Anaheim Convention Center;
besides the many religious events, we even had a Gay Squaredancers
convention along for the ride one year . . .
>> Nothing more sinister, just a money/power issue (not to mention the
>> Anaheim Resort Area's undergoing renovations recently); it'll likely
>> be AX Anaheim again come '09 . . .
>
>No. They're planning on staying in the LACC area (hoping to
>capitalize on "LA Live")-- that is, of course, if there IS an AX
>2009...
>
Ah, so now LA Live is a permanent thing, not a failure AX is using
while they repair relations with Anaheim! Love those moving goal
posts!
>Mike (And that might have to do with the anime and US economies as
>much as the situation with the SPJA. This could easily be the last
>year of the big anime conventions.)
Yeah, yeah, sky falling, sure . . .
--
- ReFlex 76
- "Let's beat the terrorists with our most powerful weapon . . . hot
girl-on-girl action!"
- "The difference between young and old is the difference between
looking forward to your next birthday, and dreading it!"
- Jesus Christ - The original hippie!
<http://reflex76.blogspot.com/>
<http://www.blogger.com/profile/07245047157197572936>
Katana > Chain Saw > Baseball Bat > Hammer
darkst...@gmail.com
> Yeah, couldn't *possibly* have anything to do with The Shriners
> standing as one of the oldest organizations in the US; they want
> con-space, they *get* con-space! This along with the many other
> conventions that tag along in the massive Anaheim Convention Center;
> besides the many religious events, we even had a Gay Squaredancers
> convention along for the ride one year . . .
Yeah, it couldn't. The only thing that would probably do would be to
give them a reason to boot AX/SPJA clean out the door and tell them
not to come back!! They probably wanted a more secure, better-run
organization (of course, the San Diego Zoo could provide the latter!),
and they got it. It makes no mathematical sense to do it, except if
your intent is to _dis-welcome_ somebody -- and that WAS the intent!
And I was there when the Gay Square Dancers were at the ACC that year,
by the by.
> >No. They're planning on staying in the LACC area (hoping to
> >capitalize on "LA Live")-- that is, of course, if there IS an AX
> >2009...
>
> Ah, so now LA Live is a permanent thing, not a failure AX is using
> while they repair relations with Anaheim! Love those moving goal
> posts!
LA Live is a separate entity, done by the city of LA to clean up that
area of LA, notoriously one of the most unsafe in the city. One
theory I had was, even if they wanted to go to, eventually, to the
LACC, the SPJA probably went there one year too _soon_ -- as more of
it will finish in 2009 and as time goes on.
But LA Live is a hotel/clean-up project that is designed to showcase
the Los Angeles Convention Center and make it safer for people to
attend shows there.
(And want to spend money in their hotels...)
> >Mike (And that might have to do with the anime and US economies as
> >much as the situation with the SPJA. This could easily be the last
> >year of the big anime conventions.)
>
> Yeah, yeah, sky falling, sure . . .
I'll ask you the same question I asked two other people who said the
same thing: Where do you see gas prices in one year -- Memorial Day
2009...
I truly believe $5.50 to $6 is not out of the question -- and that's
going to squeeze potential conventions both ways. Higher costs to
bring in the guests (especially from Japan) and higher costs for the
attendees to come to attend.
If you don't want to believe that, then fine. Ignore that $4.299 that
you see out there in Riverside, CA -- or that $5.039 you see for
diesel in Riverside, CA down at the Valero. Ignore all that -- sky
falling, sure . . .
Mike
Doug Jacobs
> Here's another interesting way to cut the chaff out of a convention:
> Force people to buy from the Dealer's Room.
Ha ha! You made a joke!
Seriously, you've got to be kidding here. When I went to AX last year, I
did go to the dealer's room, but I didn't buy anything. For one thing,
every vender there now has a website. The last thing I want to do at a
con is lug around a bag of stuff for the whole day. For another thing,
their prices were intentionally jacked up specifically for the con. Most
folks knew it too. Oh, there was quite a big of traffic, but most folks
were like me - just looking and not buying. Sure, there was the
ocassional rare item that would make sense to buy right there and then - I
saw one attendee buy a doll from St. Tail (it was what's-her-name, in her
nun get up.) But the vast majority of the stuff was available online or
elsewhere - for less. Even the last minute "deals" weren't deals at all.
Most cons already charge an entrance fee - and part of the reason is to
keep out the non-fans. Now you want to saddle con-goers with having to
buy some overpriced swag? Yeah, good luck with that.
> Now, this won't work at a
> major con, since the Dealers' Rooms are overcrowded anyway, and
> forcing people to buy just increases the overcrowding. Might not work
> at an event either where the Dealers' Room has four vendors...
>
> But, in the same vein of compelling a degree of resources necessary to
> attend the convention, perhaps, in the right con, tacking on an extra
> $25 to be spent at the Dealers' Room (as a condition of attendance)
> might not only get rid of some of the chaff, but also to get rid of
> people doing the con on the cheap.
It just isn't going to work that well. At best the con could tack on,
say, $10 to the entrance fee, and include a $10-off coupon for the
vender's room. However, that then puts the con on the hook for that $10,
and they'll want to be VERY sure that said copuons cannot be easily
copied. Then you have the issue that now you've basically shoved a $10
bill into every attendee's swag bag - just ripe for the yanking.
Besides which, the troublemakers are already paying to get into the cons.
Raising the entrance fee and/or forcing folks to buy something from the
vender's room isn't going to fix that problem, and will just cause fans to
stay away.
--
It's not broken. It's...advanced.
Doug Jacobs
> Part of the point of this is to state that those who choose not to get
> hotel rooms (coming from any real distance) are not welcome at the con
> in the first place -- the con is already cost-prohibitive and many
> I've talked to about this subject wouldn't mind it being declared so.
Bzzt. Wrong.
I strongly suspect that if you were to poll those who do try to sleep
overnight at some cons, I'm pretty sure you'd find some of them are
actually "locals".
The con is not - and should not be - your baby sitter. If someone attends
a con and can't afford a hotel room or doesn't otherwise make arrangements
to stay somewhere at night, that's not the con's problem.
I do agree that the con should shut down at some point at night (say, 2am)
as opposed to running 24 hours straight. Anyone left at that point should
just be turned out onto the streets. They can come back in when the con
opens the next morning (8-9am?)
> You see, the whole point of this is to reduce attendance, by the
> number of people who it would not be worth it for the con to retain
> (whatever that number might be). Most of these larger cons are way
> too damn big (some for security, some for organization, some for
> traffic concerns in the hall, some for registration hangups).
The majority of problems I hear about with regards to those issues all
stem from poor planning and organization. AX in particular needs to
realize that it can't just rely on volunteer staff anymore. It really
needs full time professionals who are used to organizing and running
events with 50k attendees. Maybe this means AX outsources, or maybe it
means AX finally starts acting like a real company and starts retaining
employees who do nothing but plan and run the con each year.
Either way, neither solution of yours is going to fix these problems.
Instead, they'd just end up alienating con-goers and fans (you know...the
folks you're holding the con for in the first place?) and would ultimately
be the death of any con stupid enough to try them.
> Now, that won't be the case much longer (as I said, for a couple of
> reasons, I do believe this is the last year of the big shows)...
Well, if AX doesn't get its act together, it'll collapse under its own
weight. No arguments there.
As for the other cons...I can't say since I haven't been to them. From
what I've heard, however, most cons seem to be much better run than AX.
Doug Jacobs
>> I don't grant the premise that cons wish to prevent anyone from
>> coming.
>
> Then, frankly, they should wish to do so.
That makes no sense whatsoever. If you're throwing a con, the point is to
get people to come.
If you don't want people at your con, DON'T HAVE A CON. There!
Problem solved!
Your idea of having a con that's soooo difficult to get into just doesn't
make any sense. So...you're planning l33t-con.
Step 1: Don't advertise. Have a multi-thousand dollar pre-reg fee. Have
pre-reg end last year (you know, before you announced the con).
Step 2:
Step 3: Profit! Best run con ever - no crowds, no security problems, no
loiterers, no trouble makers, and best of all, NO ATTENDEES!
Yeah, that'll work.
>>?However, letting people sleep at a convention is not a
>> serviceable idea. ?While this doesn't require a hotel room, this does
>> mean that a person would have to find an alternate place to stay
>> during a convention when they need to sleep. ?While often this is a
>> hotel room, cheaper options exist, such as hostels or finding local
>> anime fans who are able to host people.
>
> You're talking about not the most social creatures on the planet here.
You'd be surprised... Fandom has undergone a lot of changes since last
you ventured outside.
> Additionally, I find it just completely out of whack that a convention
> would hold screenings, dances, karaoke, and God knows what at 3 AM and
> not expect that somebody is going to conk out.
Yes that makes no sense to me either. Especially when the con guidebook
specifically states that you should plan for sleeping and eating. It
won't do you any good if you pass out.
Again, not all cons run around the clock. Most cons DO shut down.
>> Yes, the largest cost of an anime convention is often the hotel but
>> considering how prevalent anime conventions are, if you live within a
>> few hours driving distance of a large city, you can go to a convention
>> without paying for a hotel.
>
> Umm, no. At some point, if that rule is going to be enforced, you
> either have to have a hotel (losing about a half-day of the convention
> per night stayed), or you need public transit home. That's going to
> have you removed from the con, one way or another, probably half of
> each day anyway. And why did you go to the con again?
Most folks I know who do go to con, don't stay at the con all the time.
You pick and choose your events and plan your schedule accordingly.
Seriously, a 2 hour drive wouldn't be a big deal. Leave by 7 or 8, grab
breakfast on the way, get to the con by 10. Even if you leave at 12,
you'll be in bed before 3am - which for a con-goer is a pretty standard
schedule. Even those who do have hotel rooms within walking distance
often stay up late partying with the other con-goers.
I really don't see a problem.
>> Considering the price of an anime convention already, I have no idea
>> why some of the people who go to anime conventions only to loiter do
>> so. ?Cost considerations vary too much from person to person in order
>> to determine what type of price increase would eliminate loiterers
>> from the convention and still allow the average person to afford to
>> go.
>
> That medium point probably has to be found, though. That medium might
> be alleviated somewhat by making part of the mandatory money to enter
> dealer's room money.
If you put a fee on entering the dealer's room, you might as well not have
dealers at all. Like I said, EVERYTHING I saw in the dealer's room could
be purchased online. The old days of pawing through stuff that you
couldn't get elsewhere are basically over. Instead, there were a number
of non-dealers in the room, such as technical schools advertising their
animation programs (including a few schools from Japan), video game
companies handing out demos and ads for upcoming products, etc.
Slap a fee on the door, and these companies won't bother coming. Fans,
likewise, won't bother going in either. The dealer room acts as a great
buffer for attendees to mill around while they're between events. They've
already paid to get into the con - and by extension - the dealer's room.
Putting an additional fee on the dealer's room means fewer people will
bother, which in turn will mean you'll have a huge crowd of fans looking
for something to do.
>> I would agree that some conventions seem to be much too large for what
>> currently can be supported but I don't think there is any convention
>> that is insurmountably overcrowded.
>
> AX has been run out of Anaheim and Long Beach due to overcrowding and
> other factors.
I wouldn't say they were "run out". Outgrew, yes.
> A-Kon... Have you ever tried to get from one point of the Conference
> Center adjacent to what was the Adams Mark to another during that con?
You actually went to an anime con?
> You heard about what happened at this year's Anime Boston, did you
> not??
For someone who hates anime fans so much, you certainly read about cons a
lot.
>>?A city may need to have more
>> hotels or increase public transportation or a convention may have to
>> reorganize how their staff is structured but as long as a convention
>> center can hold the number of attendees, it is possible for a
>> convention to support that many people.
>
> And there's where we disagree. (Especially with amateur staffs.) If
> professionals took over the mega-cons like AX and Otakon, I might
> think you would have a better shot at this.
I agree. There's still a place for fan volunteers, but when you're
dealing with such large events, your staff has to consist of more than
just folks who showed up a few extra hours (or even days) early.
At the same time, any professional staff present must be, you know,
professional. That was not the experience I had at AX. The professional
security force that was brought in was not in communication with the
con's staff whatsoever. They were little more than just crowd control.
They didn't know where people were supposed to go, or where different
events were. I doubt most of them had ever even worked at a con before
that.
>> There is no doubt in my mind that the major anime conventions will
>> continue for several more years at least.
>
> I don't think the general economy is going to hold that as plausible.
> I mean, consider: How much is it going to cost for gas in one year?
> Memorial Day 2009...
We may see attendance drop, but it's hardly going to be the end of cons as
we know them.
Just looking at AX in particular, there are still *LOTS* of anime fans in
the LA metropolitan area alone.
Doug Jacobs
> So just because a convention is ran by a professional group doesn't mean
> that the convention will be ran any better.
Fair enough. However, the larger cons need to find a happy medium between
using professional help and fan volunteers. When professional help is
brought in, they still need to work with the con organizers with the goal
of having a successful con.
Aya the Vampire Slayer
>Seriously, you've got to be kidding here. When I went to AX last year, I
>did go to the dealer's room, but I didn't buy anything.
>For another thing, their prices were intentionally jacked up
>specifically for the con. Most folks knew it too.
>But the vast majority of the stuff was available online or elsewhere -
>for less. Even the last minute "deals" weren't deals at all.
Well, one thing that I have experienced in favor, though, is that you
can bargain with some of these vendors in person at cons (whereas you
can't on their store websites). This is always easier to do with more
subjectively valued items like animation cels and such, of course.
Usually, I take a list of the DVDs / manga I want and the cheapest
prices I have seen them available for online to the dealer room and
compare those prices to what the dealers have to offer. If the dealers
are cheaper, no reason not to buy. I bought a ton of books/DVDs this way
at Otakon 2k3.
Also, some of the commercial companies run special con-only discounts on
some of their products. I have experienced this from both ADV and
AnimEigo, as I recall. They also occasionally give away free merchandise
(I've gotten free stuff that I still use from Viz, ADV, Bandai and Geneon
at cons before).
--
"Care must be exorcised when handring Opiticar System as it is apts to
be sticked by dusts and hand-fat." --Japanese Translators
"Keep your fingers off the lens." --Elton Byington, English Translator
Doug Jacobs
> The technical aspects of running the convention should be run
> professionally, if not by a professional company, to keep things
> efficient and under control. They have more experience, and know what
> works and not. The content of the convention should be dictate and run
> by the usual people. No one really gripes strongly about the content of
> the majority of activities at a con, but we've all experienced major
> flaws in how the con was run, con after con.
And as we've all pointed out, it's largely the same set of problems, over
and over again.
> It's amazing that some cons, after so many years, still have not learned
> from their experiences, or learned from others.
Sadly, I've found the same type of behavior in businesses as well. I
cannot tell you how many times I've filed the same set of bugs at company
after company, or had watched as a company run by otherwise experienced
people make the same set of mistakes that killed other companies - even
companies they personally worked for previously.
Bill Martin
> I'll ask you the same question I asked two other people who said the
> same thing: Where do you see gas prices in one year -- Memorial Day
> 2009...
>
> I truly believe $5.50 to $6 is not out of the question -- and that's
> going to squeeze potential conventions both ways. Higher costs to
> bring in the guests (especially from Japan) and higher costs for the
> attendees to come to attend.
>
> If you don't want to believe that, then fine. Ignore that $4.299 that
> you see out there in Riverside, CA -- or that $5.039 you see for
> diesel in Riverside, CA down at the Valero. Ignore all that -- sky
> falling, sure . . .
Well, be sure to thank your Democratic Congress for the high gas
prices. They've stood in the way of new refineries being built.
They've declared U.S. oil sources off limits due to some negligible
impact on some fancy-named squirrel or some-such nonsense. They're the
reason gas prices have skyrocketed. Well, that and the speculators
buying futures that raise the price as well, after all, if some Sheik
doesn't get a "Lewinsky" from wife #7, the price shoots up a dime, or
was that if he stubs his toe on Louis XIV chair it goes up a dime...
Antonio E. Gonzalez
<bill_r...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 2008-05-27 22:34:59 -0500, darkst...@gmail.com said:
>
>> I'll ask you the same question I asked two other people who said the
>> same thing: Where do you see gas prices in one year -- Memorial Day
>> 2009...
>>
>> I truly believe $5.50 to $6 is not out of the question -- and that's
>> going to squeeze potential conventions both ways. Higher costs to
>> bring in the guests (especially from Japan) and higher costs for the
>> attendees to come to attend.
>>
>> If you don't want to believe that, then fine. Ignore that $4.299 that
>> you see out there in Riverside, CA -- or that $5.039 you see for
>> diesel in Riverside, CA down at the Valero. Ignore all that -- sky
>> falling, sure . . .
>
>Well, be sure to thank your Democratic Congress for the high gas
>prices. They've stood in the way of new refineries being built.
Uhhh, no, that would be the oil companies themselves; when asked,
their executives flatout said they wouldn't build any new refineries
because of the expenses in building and maintaining them; as far as
they're concerned, the US is at capacity when it comes to refineries,
and it shows if you look at their accident/malfunction rates (they are
literally just *barely* keeping the current batch from falling apart)
. .
Oh, and this *still* did not prevent the construction of the largest
refinery in the Western Hemisphere on US soil in the last few years
(yes, St. Croix is technically part of the US) . . .:
>They've declared U.S. oil sources off limits due to some negligible
>impact on some fancy-named squirrel or some-such nonsense. They're the
>reason gas prices have skyrocketed. Well, that and the speculators
>buying futures that raise the price as well, after all, if some Sheik
>doesn't get a "Lewinsky" from wife #7, the price shoots up a dime, or
>was that if he stubs his toe on Louis XIV chair it goes up a dime...
You get closer to reality towards the end . . . now, how about
getting back to what matters here? That, of course, would be
dog-piling on Mikey; with his "death of anime" delusions, and his
assholishness getting him banned from convention after convention . .
.
Antonio E. Gonzalez
wrote:
>On May 27, 7:19 pm, Antonio E. Gonzalez <AntEGM...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, couldn't *possibly* have anything to do with The Shriners
>> standing as one of the oldest organizations in the US; they want
>> con-space, they *get* con-space! This along with the many other
>> conventions that tag along in the massive Anaheim Convention Center;
>> besides the many religious events, we even had a Gay Squaredancers
>> convention along for the ride one year . . .
>
>Yeah, it couldn't. The only thing that would probably do would be to
>give them a reason to boot AX/SPJA clean out the door and tell them
>not to come back!!
Nice projection there, and the real reason you're so pissed at
AX/SPJA . . . they won't play with you anymore!
HInt: Don't wanna be banned from conventions? Quit being an
asshole! Well, at least hold it in for the duration . . .
Ah, so now it's gas prices! Maybe next year it'll be . . . waffles!
Meanwhile, new conventions continue to pop up, and attendance
continues to rise . . .
>If you don't want to believe that, then fine. Ignore that $4.299 that
>you see out there in Riverside, CA -- or that $5.039 you see for
>diesel in Riverside, CA down at the Valero. Ignore all that -- sky
>falling, sure . . .
>
It's called Metrolink . . .
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
Well, the problem with refineries is NIMBY.
Everybody wants more of them but not in their own backyard.
So, you have to put it in some podunk like St. Croix.
>
> >They've declared U.S. oil sources off limits due to some negligible
> >impact on some fancy-named squirrel or some-such nonsense. They're the
> >reason gas prices have skyrocketed. Well, that and the speculators
> >buying futures that raise the price as well, after all, if some Sheik
> >doesn't get a "Lewinsky" from wife #7, the price shoots up a dime, or
> >was that if he stubs his toe on Louis XIV chair it goes up a dime...
>
> You get closer to reality towards the end . . . now, how about
> getting back to what matters here? That, of course, would be
> dog-piling on Mikey; with his "death of anime" delusions, and his
> assholishness getting him banned from convention after convention . .
>
Reminds me of spuergenius, who also said cons ban him.
Laters. =)
Stan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ LostRune+sig [at] UofR [dot] net
| ( _| | http://www.uofr.net/~lostrune/
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
Sea Wasp
> On 2008-05-27 22:34:59 -0500, darkst...@gmail.com said:
>
>> I'll ask you the same question I asked two other people who said the
>> same thing: Where do you see gas prices in one year -- Memorial Day
>> 2009...
>
> Well, be sure to thank your Democratic Congress for the high gas
> prices.
I would like to say... WTF do gas prices have to do with the DOOOOOM
of the anime industry? Starcade's just zoomed off on another insane
tangent?
Who CARES? Gas prices are going up because people pay them.
When enough people stop buying gas -- when the reluctance to pay the
prices seriously impacts the economy even more than the gas prices
themselves -- they will DROP.
As they will have to, unless the oil exporters want to see a serious
drop in their business.
This is because at $4 per gallon, other sources of gasoline (such as
oil shale and coal liquifaction) become competitive with oil refining.
And who has the largest reserves of accessible coal in the civilized
world? Why, the USA.
darkst...@gmail.com
> David Nakamoto <david.nakam...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > The technical aspects of running the convention should be run
> > professionally, if not by a professional company, to keep things
> > efficient and under control. They have more experience, and know what
> > works and not. The content of the convention should be dictate and run
> > by the usual people. No one really gripes strongly about the content of
> > the majority of activities at a con, but we've all experienced major
> > flaws in how the con was run, con after con.
>
> And as we've all pointed out, it's largely the same set of problems, over
> and over again.
Yes. Most anime cons, especially the ones run "by fans for fans", are
horribly run -- to the point that one has to wonder, as I postulated
earlier, whether the only reason these clusterfucks are being allowed
to continue is because of the fact that the community gets so much
money from the situation.
Mike
Blade
"Bill Martin" <bill_r...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2008052815035175249-billrmartin@hotmailcom...
See, Sanjian? It sucks when people on your side are embarassingly ignorant.
-
Blade
darkst...@gmail.com
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> I don't grant the premise that cons wish to prevent anyone from
> >> coming.
>
> > Then, frankly, they should wish to do so.
>
> That makes no sense whatsoever. If you're throwing a con, the point is to
> get people to come.
>
> If you don't want people at your con, DON'T HAVE A CON. There!
> Problem solved!
NOT NECESSARILY.
You want people to come, but you don't want so many people to come
that it just becomes a complete clusterfuck.
Just as an example, if you're in Dallas this weekend and going to A-
Kon, just try to get from one place to another and not have to take 20
minutes to wade through the bottlenecks at the escalator or God knows
how long at the elevator. (One of the reasons they finally have to
shut the former off.)
Past a certain point, the staff might not be able to handle it -- the
infrastructure can't handle it -- the VENUE might not be able to
handle it. And then, that's when things really start clusterfucking.
That's where you have to start making unwelcome elements you find
undesirable for whatever reason.
I'm honestly shocked a con of some size or another hasn't been shut
down for some of this. Perhaps it's all by the grace of whatever, but
still...
> Your idea of having a con that's soooo difficult to get into just doesn't
> make any sense. So...you're planning l33t-con.
Well, at some point, that's kinda what I view as a lot of the cons
_want_. As well as some of the fans too.
> Step 1: Don't advertise. Have a multi-thousand dollar pre-reg fee. Have
> pre-reg end last year (you know, before you announced the con).
At some point, perhaps the cost of the con has to start including that
you have to produce the means by which to attend the con lawfully and
the like. I've had it put to me in no uncertain terms that people
like me make it harder for cons to get re-upped for the next year,
and, as far as that goes, if that's the case, then a hotel reservation
should have to be made first before the convention will take your
money for the con itself.
If that reduces the attendance, so be it. I mean, think of all the
con experiences you have had, and wonder to yourself how many of the
bad ones could've been done away with with a few fewer people.
> Step 2:
Step 2?
> Step 3: Profit! Best run con ever - no crowds, no security problems, no
> loiterers, no trouble makers, and best of all, NO ATTENDEES!
If you get the con to a level where people want to come back, and you
get the con to a level where the venue actually _wants you to come
back_, then you're already ahead of the game.
At some point, these non-profit cons have to realize bigger is NOT
necessarily better.
> > You're talking about not the most social creatures on the planet here.
>
> You'd be surprised... Fandom has undergone a lot of changes since last
> you ventured outside.
Yes, it's become a bunch of freaking crooks is what it's become.
> > Additionally, I find it just completely out of whack that a convention
> > would hold screenings, dances, karaoke, and God knows what at 3 AM and
> > not expect that somebody is going to conk out.
>
> Yes that makes no sense to me either. Especially when the con guidebook
> specifically states that you should plan for sleeping and eating. It
> won't do you any good if you pass out.
That's the point I'm trying to make: If you are going to have so much
fun at 3 AM, people are going to crash anywhere they can find.
Hallways, the con center atrium, under the tables, the screening
rooms, blah blah blah...
There is no reason to have events that late unless you expect
everything which comes with them and accept that as part and parcel of
what occurs. If you won't do that or (by law) can't do that, then
reconsider your schedule.
(And many cons have...)
> Again, not all cons run around the clock. Most cons DO shut down.
Yes, but that has only come over time. One SHOULD expect the con to
say "Everybody out!!" at some semi-reasoned hour.
> >> Yes, the largest cost of an anime convention is often the hotel but
> >> considering how prevalent anime conventions are, if you live within a
> >> few hours driving distance of a large city, you can go to a convention
> >> without paying for a hotel.
>
> > Umm, no. At some point, if that rule is going to be enforced, you
> > either have to have a hotel (losing about a half-day of the convention
> > per night stayed), or you need public transit home. That's going to
> > have you removed from the con, one way or another, probably half of
> > each day anyway. And why did you go to the con again?
>
> Most folks I know who do go to con, don't stay at the con all the time.
> You pick and choose your events and plan your schedule accordingly.
Most of the events I wish to attend are overnight -- the problem is
that there's enough going on during the day to make such scheduling
rather.... _interesting_.
You see, I see conventions as an immersive experience. If you don't
immerse yourself in the con, you don't get enough escape to make it
worth the expense you _do_ put into it.
> Seriously, a 2 hour drive wouldn't be a big deal. Leave by 7 or 8, grab
> breakfast on the way, get to the con by 10. Even if you leave at 12,
> you'll be in bed before 3am - which for a con-goer is a pretty standard
> schedule. Even those who do have hotel rooms within walking distance
> often stay up late partying with the other con-goers.
That's if you have (and can afford the gas for!!) a vehicle.
Otherwise, you begin to go at the mercy of the transit or of more-
remote hotel shuttles.
(One of the reasons I have serious doubts, as the price of gas
explodes, as to the future of these events...)
> >> Considering the price of an anime convention already, I have no idea
> >> why some of the people who go to anime conventions only to loiter do
> >> so. ?Cost considerations vary too much from person to person in order
> >> to determine what type of price increase would eliminate loiterers
> >> from the convention and still allow the average person to afford to
> >> go.
>
> > That medium point probably has to be found, though. That medium might
> > be alleviated somewhat by making part of the mandatory money to enter
> > dealer's room money.
>
> If you put a fee on entering the dealer's room, you might as well not have
> dealers at all.
No no no... What I said earlier was to say that part of the entrance
fee is that you have to spend $X in the Dealers' Room. There are
certain conventions I've attended where the Dealers' Room has been
pointless, and a waste of time and money for them involved.
I mean, what these cons have to do is set a minimum expectation of
what they demand of their attendees, and basically force every
attendee to do that or don't register -- because those who choose not
to will be dealt with with extreme prejudice.
> Like I said, EVERYTHING I saw in the dealer's room could
> be purchased online. The old days of pawing through stuff that you
> couldn't get elsewhere are basically over. Instead, there were a number
> of non-dealers in the room, such as technical schools advertising their
> animation programs (including a few schools from Japan), video game
> companies handing out demos and ads for upcoming products, etc.
But, at some point, there has to be a point for the room's existence,
and -- as you said -- there's less and less of one in the age of
everything on the Internet.
(In much the same vein as a con organizer telling me that screening
rooms and events are becoming just as pointless...)
> Slap a fee on the door, and these companies won't bother coming. Fans,
> likewise, won't bother going in either. The dealer room acts as a great
> buffer for attendees to mill around while they're between events. They've
> already paid to get into the con - and by extension - the dealer's room.
> Putting an additional fee on the dealer's room means fewer people will
> bother, which in turn will mean you'll have a huge crowd of fans looking
> for something to do.
That's part of the point -- most of the cons are way too damn big,
especially the larger events.
> >> I would agree that some conventions seem to be much too large for what
> >> currently can be supported but I don't think there is any convention
> >> that is insurmountably overcrowded.
>
> > AX has been run out of Anaheim and Long Beach due to overcrowding and
> > other factors.
>
> I wouldn't say they were "run out". Outgrew, yes.
Run out. I will say that.
> > A-Kon... Have you ever tried to get from one point of the Conference
> > Center adjacent to what was the Adams Mark to another during that con?
>
> You actually went to an anime con?
Basically, the only ways I have are largely sleeping in the screening
rooms. I'm not going to pay $300 for a hotel room I'm not going to
use without being escorted by police.
Out of the about 20 or so multi-day cons I've travelled to, I might've
attended about 3 of them with hotel space added in.
> > You heard about what happened at this year's Anime Boston, did you
> > not??
>
> For someone who hates anime fans so much, you certainly read about cons a
> lot.
I do. (Both grounds...) I need to, unlike a lot of other people, try
to know what I'm talking about as to WHY I hate anime fandom and the
like.
> > And there's where we disagree. (Especially with amateur staffs.) If
> > professionals took over the mega-cons like AX and Otakon, I might
> > think you would have a better shot at this.
>
> I agree. There's still a place for fan volunteers, but when you're
> dealing with such large events, your staff has to consist of more than
> just folks who showed up a few extra hours (or even days) early.
Exactly.
And when you don't the venue has to bite back...
(Which see last year's AX...)
> At the same time, any professional staff present must be, you know,
> professional. That was not the experience I had at AX. The professional
> security force that was brought in was not in communication with the
> con's staff whatsoever. They were little more than just crowd control.
> They didn't know where people were supposed to go, or where different
> events were. I doubt most of them had ever even worked at a con before
> that.
Because they saw the con people to be absolutely incompetent and
essentially seized control of the con center before the entire mess
just completely imploded upon itself. I mean, if I were the staff at
the Westin hotel in Long Beach, I'd have thrown the convention out by
the third evening. Thrown... them... out.
The fact of the matter is: At some point, either the con itself has
to show it knows it's head from it's ass, or else it's going to be a
very large problem.
> >> There is no doubt in my mind that the major anime conventions will
> >> continue for several more years at least.
>
> > I don't think the general economy is going to hold that as plausible.
> > I mean, consider: How much is it going to cost for gas in one year?
> > Memorial Day 2009...
>
> We may see attendance drop, but it's hardly going to be the end of cons as
> we know them.
What if the price of gas increases another buck and a half or so?
Where you gonna get the guests? Where you gonna get enough attendees
to pay for the guests?? Where you gonna get the dealers?
> Just looking at AX in particular, there are still *LOTS* of anime fans in
> the LA metropolitan area alone.
We'll see. If they get through this year's con without someone
getting shot, I'll be shocked.
Mike
bobbie sellers
> Bill Martin wrote:
>> On 2008-05-27 22:34:59 -0500, darkst...@gmail.com said:
>>
>>> I'll ask you the same question I asked two other people who said the
> uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!news.glorb.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trndny09.POSTED!6674b9c5!not-for-mail
>
> From: Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.verizon.net>
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US;
> rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2
> X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.anime.misc,rec.arts.animation
> Subject: Re: DEATHNOTE - I finally saw it!
> References:
> <047b9830-42cf-42e1...@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>
> In-Reply-To:
> <047b9830-42cf-42e1...@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Lines: 16
> Message-ID: <0zm%j.7460$jA.5826@trndny09>
> Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 00:13:48 GMT
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 71.127.8.239
> X-Complaints-To: ab...@verizon.net
> X-Trace: trndny09 1212020028 71.127.8.239 (Wed, 28 May 2008 20:13:48 EDT)
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 20:13:48 EDT
> Xref: uni-berlin.de rec.arts.anime.misc:771270 rec.arts.animation:169076
>
> Terrence Briggs wrote:
>>
>> This reminds me of some show... which reminds me of some play...
>> which reminds me... Have any of you guys seen Profit? See that, too!
>> NOW! On DVD! (That means you too, Juan! Don't wait for some
>> hypothetical Trio channel re-airing on Brilliant but Cancelled!) And
>> Richard III sounds about right, thought it's been at least a decade
>>> same thing: Where do you see gas prices in one year -- Memorial Day
>>> 2009...
>
>>
>> Well, be sure to thank your Democratic Congress for the high gas prices.
>
> I would like to say... WTF do gas prices have to do with the DOOOOOM
> of the anime industry? Starcade's just zoomed off on another insane
> tangent?
>
> Who CARES? Gas prices are going up because people pay them.
>
> When enough people stop buying gas -- when the reluctance to pay the
> prices seriously impacts the economy even more than the gas prices
> themselves -- they will DROP.
>
> As they will have to, unless the oil exporters want to see a serious
> drop in their business.
>
> This is because at $4 per gallon, other sources of gasoline (such as
> oil shale and coal liquifaction) become competitive with oil refining.
>
> And who has the largest reserves of accessible coal in the civilized
> world? Why, the USA.
Better the people speculating on oil currently will stop doing so
and we can expect the price of a barrel to drop radically back, it is
supposed to about $80 US/barrel.
later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)
--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco
Ningen banji Human beings do
Samazama no Every single kind
Baka a suru Of stupid thing
--- 117th edition of Haifu Yanagidaru published in 1832
darkst...@gmail.com
> The con is not - and should not be - your baby sitter. If someone attends
> a con and can't afford a hotel room or doesn't otherwise make arrangements
> to stay somewhere at night, that's not the con's problem.
Then the con should make it an issue and make it impossible for that
person to attend.
Yes, absolutely _impossible_.
> I do agree that the con should shut down at some point at night (say, 2am)
> as opposed to running 24 hours straight. Anyone left at that point should
> just be turned out onto the streets. They can come back in when the con
> opens the next morning (8-9am?)
We agree there. Absolutely. But the fact is if that's an issue with
the con, then the con needs to make it clear that these people are not
welcome there.
> > You see, the whole point of this is to reduce attendance, by the
> > number of people who it would not be worth it for the con to retain
> > (whatever that number might be). Most of these larger cons are way
> > too damn big (some for security, some for organization, some for
> > traffic concerns in the hall, some for registration hangups).
>
> The majority of problems I hear about with regards to those issues all
> stem from poor planning and organization. AX in particular needs to
> realize that it can't just rely on volunteer staff anymore. It really
> needs full time professionals who are used to organizing and running
> events with 50k attendees. Maybe this means AX outsources, or maybe it
> means AX finally starts acting like a real company and starts retaining
> employees who do nothing but plan and run the con each year.
I'm not just talking about AX, but I agree totally. There needed to
be a professional seizure takeover of AX after last year's debacle,
and I fear for the safety of any attendees this year. And, as for
shuttles: They couldn't have accounted for gas increasing 75 cents a
gallon in the last 12 months.
> Either way, neither solution of yours is going to fix these problems.
> Instead, they'd just end up alienating con-goers and fans (you know...the
> folks you're holding the con for in the first place?) and would ultimately
> be the death of any con stupid enough to try them.
Some of them need to be alienated...
And, no, I don't think that the cons hold the events for the fans. If
they did, they'd take this a lot more into account.
The cons are holding the events to fill the hotel space, or they would
not be allowed around.
> > Now, that won't be the case much longer (as I said, for a couple of
> > reasons, I do believe this is the last year of the big shows)...
>
> Well, if AX doesn't get its act together, it'll collapse under its own
> weight. No arguments there.
I think it'll go down this year. I was talking about a lot more than
just AX, and a lot more than just the anime situations.
> As for the other cons...I can't say since I haven't been to them. From
> what I've heard, however, most cons seem to be much better run than AX.
But not nearly run well enough to handle the problems they've had.
Mike
Rob Kelk
wrote:
>"Bill Martin" <bill_r...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:2008052815035175249-billrmartin@hotmailcom...
>> On 2008-05-27 22:34:59 -0500, darkst...@gmail.com said:
<snip>
>> Well, be sure to thank your Democratic Congress for the high gas prices.
>> They've stood in the way of new refineries being built. They've declared
>> U.S. oil sources off limits due to some negligible impact on some
>> fancy-named squirrel or some-such nonsense. They're the reason gas prices
>> have skyrocketed. Well, that and the speculators buying futures that
>> raise the price as well, after all, if some Sheik doesn't get a "Lewinsky"
>> from wife #7, the price shoots up a dime, or was that if he stubs his toe
>> on Louis XIV chair it goes up a dime...
>
>See, Sanjian? It sucks when people on your side are embarassingly ignorant.
And here I thought Bill was riffing off of Jian Ghomeshi's opening
monologue from today's episode of "Q" - blame *everything* on rising gas
prices!
(On the off-chance you missed it, the episode should be on the CBC
podcast site some time Thursday:
<http://www.cbc.ca/podcasting/pastpodcasts.html#ref42> )
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
darkst...@gmail.com
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Here's another interesting way to cut the chaff out of a convention:
> > Force people to buy from the Dealer's Room.
>
> Ha ha! You made a joke!
Not joking at all. It's another idea to get the loiterers and
undesirables out last year.
Now, with your experience at AX, and probably limited to such, I can
see why that might not work at a con that size, but they've got much
larger problems that they had to deal with two or three years ago.
> Seriously, you've got to be kidding here. When I went to AX last year, I
> did go to the dealer's room, but I didn't buy anything. For one thing,
> every vender there now has a website. The last thing I want to do at a
> con is lug around a bag of stuff for the whole day. For another thing,
> their prices were intentionally jacked up specifically for the con. Most
> folks knew it too. Oh, there was quite a big of traffic, but most folks
> were like me - just looking and not buying. Sure, there was the
> ocassional rare item that would make sense to buy right there and then - I
> saw one attendee buy a doll from St. Tail (it was what's-her-name, in her
> nun get up.) But the vast majority of the stuff was available online or
> elsewhere - for less. Even the last minute "deals" weren't deals at all.
At some point, there either has to be a point for the Dealers' Room to
exist, or the Dealers' Room should be abolished. At a show like AX,
that might not be an issue. At some of the events I've been to, I've
seen shows where so little is sold (and the Internet being one of the
reasons) that the dealers lose money.
(In fact, at least one of those events was never tried again -- for
the specific reason that the only reason the event took place was to
provide a Dealers' Room for holiday shopping, and it flopped worse
than a fish on land.)
> Most cons already charge an entrance fee - and part of the reason is to
> keep out the non-fans. Now you want to saddle con-goers with having to
> buy some overpriced swag? Yeah, good luck with that.
You're keeping out the non-fans, but you're not keeping out -- as was
discussed before -- people who may be fans but just go to become part
of the furniture. They serve no real purpose to the convention
whatsoever.
> Besides which, the troublemakers are already paying to get into the cons.
> Raising the entrance fee and/or forcing folks to buy something from the
> vender's room isn't going to fix that problem, and will just cause fans to
> stay away.
You need to get the troublemakers out, and make it prohibitive for
them to get in.
If a few other fans have to stay away, then that's collateral damage.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> Well, be sure to thank your Democratic Congress for the high gas
> prices. They've stood in the way of new refineries being built.
> They've declared U.S. oil sources off limits due to some negligible
> impact on some fancy-named squirrel or some-such nonsense. They're the
> reason gas prices have skyrocketed. Well, that and the speculators
> buying futures that raise the price as well, after all, if some Sheik
> doesn't get a "Lewinsky" from wife #7, the price shoots up a dime, or
> was that if he stubs his toe on Louis XIV chair it goes up a dime...
I'll also thank the War Criminal Pig in Chief too, while we're at it.
And if you honestly believe this Congress is Democrat-run, you'd have
to call Hillary Clinton (AKA "megalomaniacal bitch") and Joseph
LIEberman and Nancy Pelosi/Piglosi Democrats.
Nice one, Bill. I'd take my chances on the Hate Plague rather than
those three.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> Bill Martin wrote:
>
> >> I'll ask you the same question I asked two other people who said the
> >> same thing: Where do you see gas prices in one year -- Memorial Day
> >> 2009...
>
> > Well, be sure to thank your Democratic Congress for the high gas
> > prices.
>
> I would like to say... WTF do gas prices have to do with the DOOOOOM
> of the anime industry? Starcade's just zoomed off on another insane
> tangent?
I added that on the end as one of the reasons I openly believe the con
scene to be just about dead. And not necessarily _now_, but in the
very very near future.
> Who CARES? Gas prices are going up because people pay them.
And once they can't, they're not going to be able to get the gas
because people are still paying for them, but in other countries.
(Gas use in China has exploded, as an example.)
> When enough people stop buying gas -- when the reluctance to pay the
> prices seriously impacts the economy even more than the gas prices
> themselves -- they will DROP.
Ummm, nice try. What's to say other customers from economies which
are going to survive this won't??
(Yes, this is getting more into talk.politics.misc or some of the
economic-political groups, but I've been known to go over there too.)
> As they will have to, unless the oil exporters want to see a serious
> drop in their business.
You're presuming that there won't be replacements elsewhere in the
world. This is not an Amero-centric world anymore.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:34:59 -0700 (PDT), darkstar7...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> >On May 27, 7:19 pm, Antonio E. Gonzalez <AntEGM...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >> Yeah, couldn't *possibly* have anything to do with The Shriners
> >> standing as one of the oldest organizations in the US; they want
> >> con-space, they *get* con-space! This along with the many other
> >> conventions that tag along in the massive Anaheim Convention Center;
> >> besides the many religious events, we even had a Gay Squaredancers
> >> convention along for the ride one year . . .
>
> >Yeah, it couldn't. The only thing that would probably do would be to
> >give them a reason to boot AX/SPJA clean out the door and tell them
> >not to come back!!
>
> Nice projection there, and the real reason you're so pissed at
> AX/SPJA . . . they won't play with you anymore!
>
> HInt: Don't wanna be banned from conventions? Quit being an
> asshole! Well, at least hold it in for the duration . . .
I'll be a fucking asshole if I want to be. Don't like it. Three
numbers for you. 9 - 1 - 1.
Call the fucking cops on me if you don't like it.
As for the "projection", I was saying this for about three solid weeks
before I just finally told them to ban me if they didn't like having
the truth rammed down their fucking throats.
For example, I openly told them I'd be armed with a deadly weapon if I
wanted to attend this year's show. I wasn't going to trust the SPJA
to put together a sufficient security situation to hold the LACC to
some degree of safety.
(And don't give me this E3 shit either -- they're at least
professionals and know what the fuck they are doing.)
> >I'll ask you the same question I asked two other people who said the
> >same thing: Where do you see gas prices in one year -- Memorial Day
> >2009...
>
> >I truly believe $5.50 to $6 is not out of the question -- and that's
> >going to squeeze potential conventions both ways. Higher costs to
> >bring in the guests (especially from Japan) and higher costs for the
> >attendees to come to attend.
>
> Ah, so now it's gas prices! Maybe next year it'll be . . . waffles!
> Meanwhile, new conventions continue to pop up, and attendance
> continues to rise . . .
I'll give that part of this year. I've seen conventions fall by the
wayside out here in California. In fact, I've seen at least four
shows basically cease to exist in the last two years.
(Anime Destiny, JTAF, Tales of Anime, Recca-Con)
And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure I can come up with
more.
> >If you don't want to believe that, then fine. Ignore that $4.299 that
> >you see out there in Riverside, CA -- or that $5.039 you see for
> >diesel in Riverside, CA down at the Valero. Ignore all that -- sky
> >falling, sure . . .
>
> It's called Metrolink . . .
Here's a hint: From where I live in Riverside:
It's already $10 -- and it's going to about $11.50 July 1.
Multiply that by 8 for the four days of AX.
Also, the first train leaves about 4 in the morning. The last train
from LA leaves about 630 PM.
And why did I attend the con again???
Mike
Captain Nerd
bobbie sellers <bl...@california.com> wrote:
Don't forget the devalued dollar in relation to world currencies.
Since barrels of oil are priced in dollars, when the dollar drops
in value, oil price rises. Now, if oil were traded like currency,
then the price would probably stay about the same, but since OPEC
insists on one currency to trade oil in, it will fluctuate as
wildly as the dollar has. And they aren't changing to euros to
trade (even though they claim to want to) because the price would
still fluctuate as badly.
And why do we have devalued dollars? Thank the economic geniuses
in our current Administration (I'm a conservative, but this
Republican administration isn't. Nor will the next one be, if it
happens) who wanted to increase our exports by making them cheaper
than our imports. Of course, that's only possible if we either
lower the value of the dollar, or decrease our manufacturing costs.
The only control government currently has is the former, unless we
get a real gung-ho socialist government that starts imposing wage
and price laws. Which is a pretty safe bet, given the caliber of
candidates we have to choose from...
Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
Blade
<darkst...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d0b63854-41f4-4889...@p39g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
See, case in point! Incidentally, Starcade, for whatever people here are
still stupid/bored enough to reply to you, would you mind fixing your news
settings so your messages quote properly when replied to?
(Of course, I guess that could be some weird Outlook problem; even Microsoft
products recoil from him?)
-
Blade
Blade
"Justin" <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:slrng3tfj8...@debian.dns2go.com...
> Blade wrote on [Thu, 29 May 2008 07:34:24 -0400]:
>> (Of course, I guess that could be some weird Outlook problem; even
>> Microsoft
>> products recoil from him?)
>
> It's an Outlook issue
Doesn't affect you, though. Or most anyone else I reply to.
-
Blade
Doug Jacobs
>> Ha ha! ?You made a joke!
>
> Not joking at all. It's another idea to get the loiterers and
> undesirables out last year.
This won't affect that problem. Instead, it'll keep out fans and (IMHO)
ultimately doom the con.
> Now, with your experience at AX, and probably limited to such, I can
> see why that might not work at a con that size, but they've got much
> larger problems that they had to deal with two or three years ago.
I think we can all agree that AX has bigger problems than loitering.
But even for a smaller con, I can't see this having any sort of a positive
impact.
>> elsewhere - for less. ?Even the last minute "deals" weren't deals at all.
>
> At some point, there either has to be a point for the Dealers' Room to
> exist, or the Dealers' Room should be abolished. At a show like AX,
> that might not be an issue. At some of the events I've been to, I've
> seen shows where so little is sold (and the Internet being one of the
> reasons) that the dealers lose money.
Eh, it's up to the vendors to decide that. As far as I know, they pay to
attend the cons and rent space in the vendor's room. IF they want to
charge wacky prices to fans who know better, let them. Either they'll
figure it out, or they'll stop coming. I think there's always a place for
a vendor's room at a con, but the vendors need to realize they're now
longer in a position where fans will buy anything - and at any price -
just because it's anime and/or at a con.
>> Most cons already charge an entrance fee - and part of the reason is to
>> keep out the non-fans. ?Now you want to saddle con-goers with having to
>> buy some overpriced swag? ?Yeah, good luck with that.
>
> You're keeping out the non-fans, but you're not keeping out -- as was
> discussed before -- people who may be fans but just go to become part
> of the furniture. They serve no real purpose to the convention
> whatsoever.
If someone wants to pay the entrance fee just so he can sit around and
people-watch, why is that a problem? Heck, that's basically all my wife
and I did when we went to AX last year. We walked around the art
displays and through the vendor's room, mostly to look at the cosplayers.
We talked to a few other fans, we took some photographs, we had our fun -
and didn't cause trouble.
Now, we DID have accomodations and it wasn't as though we were planning to
sleep at the con or anything like that. If you're more concerned with
those people, raising the con fees, or forcing folks to buy something
at the con won't really address that problem. If someone wants to just go
to the con so they can take a nap, well then it would make sense to ask
them to leave. I really don't see this as being a big problem -
especially not one that would require such drastic measures which will
have a negative impact on the con overall. I also agree that cons should
not be 24 hour affairs. Shut down at 1 or 2am, clear out the place, and
reopen at 8 or 9am the next morning. I think it's perfectly acceptable to
throw folks out onto the street at that point. Again, I don't see this as
a big problem - not when there are MUCH larger problems that almost all
cons seem to have with regards to overall organization.
As a con organizer, I would be MORE concerned with the folks whose only
purpose for coming to my con was to cause trouble - be it harassing other
visitors, shoplifting/stealing, etc.
>> Besides which, the troublemakers are already paying to get into the cons. ?
>> Raising the entrance fee and/or forcing folks to buy something from the
>> vender's room isn't going to fix that problem, and will just cause fans to
>> stay away.
>
> You need to get the troublemakers out, and make it prohibitive for
> them to get in.
>
> If a few other fans have to stay away, then that's collateral damage.
Then you do this by making it clear that any sort of trouble WILL result
in them being ejected from the con AND turned over to the local law
enforcement authorities, AND that the con may take additional legal action
of its own.
Implementing such regulations that target the general fan, and calling him
"collateral damage" is a sure fire way to kill the con entirely.
Besides which, how would you implement such a system? Have registration
empty out into the vendor's room, where the only way you can leave is if
you have receipts showing you've spent the minimum required amount?
Oh yeah, THAT'LL be popular with the fans!
And you'll STILL end up with some troublemakers, who are now in a packed
vendor's room full of disgruntled con-goers. Yay! Powder keg!
Doug Jacobs
> On May 23, 5:15?am, Sea Wasp <seawaspObvi...@sgeObviousinc.com> wrote:
>
>> ? ? ? ? As Starky doesn't understand anything in the real world, he also
>> wouldn't understand that the REAL reason for saying that is to make
>> sure you have an excuse for ejecting anyone who is trying to use the
>> open areas of the convention AS living space. It's nothing to do with
>> the hotel as such.
>
> Why shouldn't people use it as living space if the convention is a 24-
> hour event??
Because it violates local and state health regulations, not to mention
any liability issues that can arise. In short, "it's against the rules."
Again, I don't see why a con has to be a 24 hour event either. If someone
wants to hold a viewing of something that lasts all night, have very
strict rules for that viewing, such as a specific time at which new people
won't be allowed to enter (use hand stamps or something) If you fall
asleep, you'll be given a warning, and then asked to leave. After a
certain time (say, 2am?) everyone must either be in an event, or leave the
center until the con re-opens at 8am the next day.
> You see, this is where round-the-clock conventions become
> nonsensical. If you have six different events and five screening
> rooms at 3:00 AM, then people are going to crash, and there's little
> you can do to stop them unless you either close down or pull badges
> left and right.
Are there really that many late night events at cons anymore?
Since AX now only shows stuff that's been licensed and released, viewing
rooms in general seem pretty pointless. I don't want to pay $20 to go see
something I can get from Netflix. Show me something NEW! At least give
me the chance to see a premiere or something!
Other than that, things like karaoke contests or dances should end at some
reasonable hour.
> Why _SHOULDN'T_ people use the space as "living space", unless, as I
> have postulated, the only reason the convention is allowed to exist is
> because it brings several million dollars to the local hoteliers and
> the like?
As I mentioned, there are a number of laws about loitering, and there are
also issues with liability on the part of the convention center.
>> ? ? ? ? And he's rather wrong about conventions in general, too. A well-run
>> anime convention, of which there are many, is often quite popular with
>> the related hotels. This is true of most conventions, actually; they
>> provide guaranteed sales.
>
> I'd like to know which shows Sea Wasp is talking about, because I have
> seen _NO_ representations of that out here in the West. _NONE_. I
> can even include A-Kon in that statement.
Why wouldn't a well run con be a welcome event with nearby hotels? Cons
bring in visitors who then need rooms to stay in. Unreserved rooms cost
the hotel money.
> Most of the conventions I've been to have been unprofessional, some to
> the point of abject incompetence.
Again, since you hold anime AND anime fans in such disdain, why are you
going to cons at all? If anything represents "fandom" - it's a con.
Doug Jacobs
> One really has to wonder if screening rooms at shows are just going to
> become a thing of the past to begin with.
If the cons are only showing released stuff, like AX'08 did, then yes, the
small screening rooms are completely pointless.
At least at AX'96 I was able to see US premieres of movies like Ghost In The
Shell, Patlabor (I think it was the 2nd movie?) and Memories. AX'08 had
nothing like that.
Actually, the small screening rooms could still be useful... Here's a few
ideas from off the top of my head:
* Themes. Mecha, Magical Girls, anime's greatest kisses, etc. Pick
episodes from various shows around that theme. Heck, why not do a
Christmas room that shows nothing but the Christmas episodes from shows? At
midnight, why not the shower scene fanservice clipshow?
* Company rooms. Each company would sponsor a room, and run an episode
from maybe 4 or 5 shows they're considering. Viewers would fill out
comment cards to help the company choose. The winners would be announced
during the closing ceremonies.
* GOH Anime Picks. Create a video program of the GOH introducing anime
series he/she liked or found influential, followed by an episode from that
show. Ever wonder what anime Anno finds distrubing or twisted? Hm. Maybe
not, but heck it still sounds interesting!
* Anime Greats. Pseudo documentaries featuring the works of great anime
artists or voice actors consisting of 4 or 5 sample episodes from shows
that made them famous.
* Music videos. I'm not talking AMVs. I'm talking straight up J-Rock
and J-Pop videos (separate rooms, please.) Like the songs? Buy the CDs in
the vendor's room. This should have been a no-brainer, and drop-dead easy
to get the companies involvement/sponsorship.
* Japanese TV room. We all know that anime airs on Japanese TV, well, why
not actually show it that way! Yes, with commercials and everything!
Watch anime the way that most Japanese watch anime! Bonus - arrange the
viewing room to resemble a Japanese living room! (besides, the
commercials are often more interesting than the show anyways ;)
Each "program" should only be 2-4 hours long. That way they can be rerun
throughout the con, allowing more people to watch them.
AX'08 really blew it by simply having the screening rooms run things like
'Totoro'. Not that I have anything against Totoro, but honestly, who
HASN'T seen Totoro by now? And why would I pay to go to a con to watch
something that I've owned legitimately (multiple times!) for years and
years now?
darkst...@gmail.com
> <darkstar7...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Actually, I don't even use Outlook.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On May 23, 5:15?am, Sea Wasp <seawaspObvi...@sgeObviousinc.com> wrote:
>
> >> ? ? ? ? As Starky doesn't understand anything in the real world, he also
> >> wouldn't understand that the REAL reason for saying that is to make
> >> sure you have an excuse for ejecting anyone who is trying to use the
> >> open areas of the convention AS living space. It's nothing to do with
> >> the hotel as such.
>
> > Why shouldn't people use it as living space if the convention is a 24-
> > hour event??
>
> Because it violates local and state health regulations, not to mention
> any liability issues that can arise. In short, "it's against the rules."
Then bring the cops in. Because there's ZERO POINT (as we've both
established) to having 24-hour events and not then expecting that
people are going to crash out. That's a matter of definition. A con
absolutely should be compelled (and may have it written into its own
permits and the like) to shut down at a certain hour. You're seeing
this more and more -- A-Kon did it two or three years ago. JTAF did
it year 3. I'm sure many can come up with other examples.
The thing is, at some point, the only point in going to the show is
seeing how far you can (physically and legally) push it. As I said,
if they enforced it as tightly as they did at some shows, I would
never have attended 20 or so of these cons. I might've made 3.
> Again, I don't see why a con has to be a 24 hour event either. If someone
> wants to hold a viewing of something that lasts all night, have very
> strict rules for that viewing, such as a specific time at which new people
> won't be allowed to enter (use hand stamps or something) If you fall
> asleep, you'll be given a warning, and then asked to leave. After a
> certain time (say, 2am?) everyone must either be in an event, or leave the
> center until the con re-opens at 8am the next day.
It would also require a security escort out of the facility for people
to be thrown out of the building after relevant time. I'd take it one
final step: You have to have a hotel near enough to the convention
center that you can be escorted there. But your idea is a quite good
one.
The thing here is that I stand by what I said before: I truly don't
think a lot of these shows want people to know what really goes on
therein. I mean, from what I could assert, Fanime had to go pretty
much "No Glomping" to prevent the cops from having to be called in.
> > You see, this is where round-the-clock conventions become
> > nonsensical. If you have six different events and five screening
> > rooms at 3:00 AM, then people are going to crash, and there's little
> > you can do to stop them unless you either close down or pull badges
> > left and right.
>
> Are there really that many late night events at cons anymore?
Fanime has 'em. AX has 'em. A-Kon used to, but still has a couple
(they have quite a few that go into the overnight, just not all the
way overnight... -- in fact, one of them is the big Ouran Host Club
Pajama Party, where Funimation probably will announce when Ouran will
be released R1). I know the last Tales of Anime did, though I believe
the one before did _not_.
Thing is, some do and some don't. But I do think you are correct in
your thought that fewer and fewer shows are doing that -- probably
with this issue in mind.
> Since AX now only shows stuff that's been licensed and released, viewing
> rooms in general seem pretty pointless. I don't want to pay $20 to go see
> something I can get from Netflix. Show me something NEW! At least give
> me the chance to see a premiere or something!
I've told you guys what a California con chair who's an acquaintance
of mine has said, right?
About a year and a half ago now, we were at a bowling/screening event
that he was running, and we got to the subject that most of the reason
I go to cons is for the screenings. (This was the case back then,
when I could still tolerate (at worst) what was being screened.)
He came to, roughly, this conclusion, except for the fact that he
wanted to put it at the feet of the Internet generation rather than
licensed stuff.
AX, with only four major players left (and probably getting down to
three -- I still predict ADV will go down before AX, but if they make
it that far, they clearly won't make it much further...), pretty much
ought to take the subsidiary screening rooms they have and expand on
the concept.
In addition to the standard rooms, they would allow the companies to
rent out an additional (much smaller) room for the companies to show
company-exclusive shows.
What they could do, with five rooms (their standard is essentially 4
1/2 -- 4 full and a kids' room that can convert into more shojo
material later in the afternoon and evening, and usually shuts down
about 10 or so): One room ADV (if they make it that far -- if they
don't, there's your kids' room), one room Shonen Jump/Viz, one room
Funimation, one room Bandai, and the fifth room catches everything
else. For "Midnight Madness"-style material, just scan the rosters
for relevant screwball material that's a little too racy for regular
time.
That is, use the rooms as advertisements. The screening rooms become
advertisements for the companies -- and are basically run through the
companies (if not _by_ them) to advertise material for sale.
> Other than that, things like karaoke contests or dances should end at some
> reasonable hour.
We agree here completely.
> > Why _SHOULDN'T_ people use the space as "living space", unless, as I
> > have postulated, the only reason the convention is allowed to exist is
> > because it brings several million dollars to the local hoteliers and
> > the like?
>
> As I mentioned, there are a number of laws about loitering, and there are
> also issues with liability on the part of the convention center.
From what I've seen at many cons even long before I ran into such
problems with them, I would assert that the venues and the local
authorities are doing an absolute slipshod job of actually enforcing
them.
(Again, because I don't think they would welcome the anime con back if
they actually saw a lot of what was going on.)
I mean, I've made reference to the Westin last year in Long Beach for
AX. There were more people asleep in the screening rooms (and three
times that amount sleeping in the adjacent hallways) than were awake
in the screening rooms the first two nights. (I, in fact, was
counting. :) )
> >> ? ? ? ? And he's rather wrong about conventions in general, too. A well-run
> >> anime convention, of which there are many, is often quite popular with
> >> the related hotels. This is true of most conventions, actually; they
> >> provide guaranteed sales.
>
> > I'd like to know which shows Sea Wasp is talking about, because I have
> > seen _NO_ representations of that out here in the West. _NONE_. I
> > can even include A-Kon in that statement.
>
> Why wouldn't a well run con be a welcome event with nearby hotels? Cons
> bring in visitors who then need rooms to stay in. Unreserved rooms cost
> the hotel money.
Ahhh, but the point of it is: Is that the reason the con exists? I
don't think that answer is necessarily no.
And I can tell you that my point stands: I'd like to know which shows
SW is talking about, because there aren't that many really well-run
cons out here.
> > Most of the conventions I've been to have been unprofessional, some to
> > the point of abject incompetence.
>
> Again, since you hold anime AND anime fans in such disdain, why are you
> going to cons at all? If anything represents "fandom" - it's a con.
Let's just say I haven't been to one since early February, and I don't
know if or when the next one I will attend will be.
Mike (Of course, if I had attended Fanime this year, chances are I'd
be in the Santa Clara County Jail by now...)
Megane
Doug Jacobs <dja...@shell.rawbw.com> wrote:
> Why wouldn't a well run con be a welcome event with nearby hotels? Cons
> bring in visitors who then need rooms to stay in. Unreserved rooms cost
> the hotel money.
Especially the ones in areas where they mostly get business travelers /
conferences on weekdays, and don't get much weekend business. Downtown
Dallas is like that, and they have two regular anime cons in the area.
As a bonus, one is on Labor Day weekend, which means three nights
instead of two, on a weekend when they would otherwise have a whole
bunch of empty rooms. (FWIW, the other con, A-Kon, is there mostly
because that was the only place big enough for them to fit)
darkst...@gmail.com
> In article <LtydnZG7xfgXsKLVnZ2dnUVZ_o3in...@posted.rawbandwidth>,
Then they need to either consider moving the con to another city or
split the darn thing, because you can only think A-Kon is in a place
big enough for them to fit if you've never been there for it.
Mike (I have, twice.)
Doug Jacobs
> Yes. Most anime cons, especially the ones run "by fans for fans", are
> horribly run -- to the point that one has to wonder, as I postulated
> earlier, whether the only reason these clusterfucks are being allowed
> to continue is because of the fact that the community gets so much
> money from the situation.
Well, until you start seeing anime cons on every street corner like
Starbucks, a poorly run con can get away with it, to a certain extent,
just due to lack of competition.
Doug Jacobs
> You want people to come, but you don't want so many people to come
> that it just becomes a complete clusterfuck.
>
> Just as an example, if you're in Dallas this weekend and going to A-
> Kon, just try to get from one place to another and not have to take 20
> minutes to wade through the bottlenecks at the escalator or God knows
> how long at the elevator. (One of the reasons they finally have to
> shut the former off.)
>
> Past a certain point, the staff might not be able to handle it -- the
> infrastructure can't handle it -- the VENUE might not be able to
> handle it. And then, that's when things really start clusterfucking.
> That's where you have to start making unwelcome elements you find
> undesirable for whatever reason.
So, there are a few problems here:
* Infrastructure
* Staff
Both of these need to scale with the con. If the con starts growing, the
staff (organization) better scale with it. Unfortunately it's not quite
so easy to do with a convention center. If a con outgrows a facility,
there's not really much you can do other than find a larger facility,
start capping con attendance (as you mentioned) or pray the fire marshals
are out of town during the con...
> I'm honestly shocked a con of some size or another hasn't been shut
> down for some of this. Perhaps it's all by the grace of whatever, but
> still...
I'd be interested to know what the facility's take on all this is. It
could be they're well aware of the bottlenecks, but can't do anything to
remodel the building to fix them. Or, perhaps they just don't care so
long as they get paid, and no one smashes up the place.
After all, anime cons aren't the only events to have these problems. I've
been to professional (hah!) trade shows that have had some of the very
same problems that we see at anime (or other fandom) cons.
>> Your idea of having a con that's soooo difficult to get into just doesn't
>> make any sense. So...you're planning l33t-con.
>
> Well, at some point, that's kinda what I view as a lot of the cons
> _want_. As well as some of the fans too.
I don't know. I've always been anti-l33t, myself. The l33t will always
find someway to distinguish themselves from the others - if they want.
>> Step 1: Don't advertise. Have a multi-thousand dollar pre-reg fee. Have
>> pre-reg end last year (you know, before you announced the con).
>
> At some point, perhaps the cost of the con has to start including that
> you have to produce the means by which to attend the con lawfully and
> the like. I've had it put to me in no uncertain terms that people
> like me make it harder for cons to get re-upped for the next year,
> and, as far as that goes, if that's the case, then a hotel reservation
> should have to be made first before the convention will take your
> money for the con itself.
Sounds to me like you're on the verge of becoming one of those
"undesireables" that you rant about so much.
One of the points of having a con is to help fans connect with other
fans. The reg. fee of the con is to pay for the cost of having the con
(facilities, paying for security, staff, etc.) Some of these costs can be
defrayed by having vendors or other ways. Of course if you make a con TOO
expensive, then no one will go.
> If that reduces the attendance, so be it. I mean, think of all the
> con experiences you have had, and wonder to yourself how many of the
> bad ones could've been done away with with a few fewer people.
>
>> Step 2:
>
> Step 2?
It's the (in)famous 3 step plan to profit from the Underwear Gnomes from
South Park. No one knows what Step Two is. If we did, we'd already be
rich ;)
>> Step 3: Profit! Best run con ever - no crowds, no security problems, no
>> loiterers, no trouble makers, and best of all, NO ATTENDEES!
>
> If you get the con to a level where people want to come back, and you
> get the con to a level where the venue actually _wants you to come
> back_, then you're already ahead of the game.
Getting people to come back is a matter of having a well run con - and that
means having the staff and facilities properly scaled to the expected
attendance for the con. If you're expecting 50k people, for instance,
then obviously the facilities and plans you made for 20k or even 30k
aren't going to work. It's one thing if you honestly thought you were
only going to have 30k, and you end up with 50k, but I would think that
any decent con plan would include some thought about what to do in that
situation - including capping attendance, being able to get extra staff
online quickly, etc.
> At some point, these non-profit cons have to realize bigger is NOT
> necessarily better.
Only if the staff isn't able to grow along side.
>> Yes that makes no sense to me either. Especially when the con guidebook
>> specifically states that you should plan for sleeping and eating. It
>> won't do you any good if you pass out.
>
> That's the point I'm trying to make: If you are going to have so much
> fun at 3 AM, people are going to crash anywhere they can find.
> Hallways, the con center atrium, under the tables, the screening
> rooms, blah blah blah...
However, the con guide book also pointed out that that wasn't allowed
either. Look, for the most part, we aren't talking about little kids
here. Most con goers are going to be 18, and therefore should be
responsible for themselves. That includes them having plans for meals and
sleeping that don't otherwise violate con guidelines. If the con wants to
throw an event at 3am (and I really don't know why they would) it's still
the responsibility of the attendees to still obey the guidelines - and
that means no sleeping at the facilities. Anyone interested in such an
event has hopefully had the foresight to get a hotel room nearby - either
that or shows the maturity to realize when it's time to leave so as not to
be a danger to himself or others while driving.
There's already enough "nanny-ism" in this country as it is. Let's not
add to it.
> There is no reason to have events that late unless you expect
> everything which comes with them and accept that as part and parcel of
> what occurs. If you won't do that or (by law) can't do that, then
> reconsider your schedule.
>
> (And many cons have...)
I agree there isn't much point in such a late night or all-night event at
a con. Even if the con-goers are willing to stay up all night, hopped up
on no-doze and red bull, the staff members are going to need their sleep -
more so than the con-goers.
>> Again, not all cons run around the clock. Most cons DO shut down.
>
> Yes, but that has only come over time. One SHOULD expect the con to
> say "Everybody out!!" at some semi-reasoned hour.
Very much so. AX is the only con I know of that runs 24 hours like that.
The other cons seem to shut down at some point - at least for 5-6 hours.
If AX wants to do that, that is their perrogative. They're still
responsible for upholding the guidelines though - and that means no
sleeping in the con rooms.
>> Most folks I know who do go to con, don't stay at the con all the time.
>> You pick and choose your events and plan your schedule accordingly.
>
> Most of the events I wish to attend are overnight -- the problem is
> that there's enough going on during the day to make such scheduling
> rather.... _interesting_.
Eh? First you're slamming the con for not shutting down, and now you're
saying those very events at 3am or whatnot are the very ones you WANT to
attend?
From my memory of what the late night events were at AX, it sounds like
you'd just be better off going to a dedicated hentai con.
> You see, I see conventions as an immersive experience. If you don't
> immerse yourself in the con, you don't get enough escape to make it
> worth the expense you _do_ put into it.
Immersive or not, you still need to eat and sleep. At AX last year there
were plenty of con-goers scattered all over the place outside of the main
convetional halls, so you could continue your "immersive experience" even
at the nearby Chili's or burger hut. Heck, we continued to run into
AX'ers all over LA, and even back home in the Bay Area (non-locals
stretched their trip to cover San Fran., Monterey, etc.) That was rather
neat actually.
>> Seriously, a 2 hour drive wouldn't be a big deal. Leave by 7 or 8, grab
>> breakfast on the way, get to the con by 10. Even if you leave at 12,
>> you'll be in bed before 3am - which for a con-goer is a pretty standard
>> schedule. Even those who do have hotel rooms within walking distance
>> often stay up late partying with the other con-goers.
>
> That's if you have (and can afford the gas for!!) a vehicle.
> Otherwise, you begin to go at the mercy of the transit or of more-
> remote hotel shuttles.
In college, I had plenty of friends with a car who were easily bribed with
gas money and a bit of food. Besides, if you're coming from further away,
chances are you're going to be coming in a group. You know, roadtrip
style.
> (One of the reasons I have serious doubts, as the price of gas
> explodes, as to the future of these events...)
Well, gas is going to be a concern over the next few years at least...
Though I don't think it'll have TOO big of an impact on most cons.
>> If you put a fee on entering the dealer's room, you might as well not have
>> dealers at all.
>
> No no no... What I said earlier was to say that part of the entrance
> fee is that you have to spend $X in the Dealers' Room. There are
> certain conventions I've attended where the Dealers' Room has been
> pointless, and a waste of time and money for them involved.
That will have the same effect - kill the con.
As I mentioned, AX's dealer's room was mostly pointless. The vast
majority of stuff for sale was available from the same stores'
websites...for less (or at least, no tax, and sometimes free shipping.)
> I mean, what these cons have to do is set a minimum expectation of
> what they demand of their attendees, and basically force every
> attendee to do that or don't register -- because those who choose not
> to will be dealt with with extreme prejudice.
Most locals who are only going to go for 1 day aren't going to register.
Locals are, for the most part, the largest group at a con.
Annoy the locals, and the con will die.
Putting stupid requirements on attendees, like required purchases from the
dealer's room, will also kill the con.
Worse still, many of the locals who do go to cons are either the crusty
old folks (like me) or the young kids just getting into fandom. I've run
the whole spectrum now. Fandom cannot survive if you whack one of those
segments - and fandom IS the whole point of a con.
>> Like I said, EVERYTHING I saw in the dealer's room could
>> be purchased online. The old days of pawing through stuff that you
>> couldn't get elsewhere are basically over. Instead, there were a number
>> of non-dealers in the room, such as technical schools advertising their
>> animation programs (including a few schools from Japan), video game
>> companies handing out demos and ads for upcoming products, etc.
>
> But, at some point, there has to be a point for the room's existence,
> and -- as you said -- there's less and less of one in the age of
> everything on the Internet.
There is, it's just that the vendors have to adjust to the new business
climate.
Also, from an organizing standpoint, the dealer's room acts as a giant
buffer - giving people some place to go between events. Think of it as a
giant heatsink, or bucket. It helps keep the other areas of the con less
crowded and congested. AX did one thing right in that the vendor's room
also had food for sale along the back walls of the hall, so you could very
well spend an entire day in there when you weren't trying to attend
another event.
> (In much the same vein as a con organizer telling me that screening
> rooms and events are becoming just as pointless...)
The screening rooms at AX'07 were pointless. I made another post about
some ideas that could make them interesting again...not that I expect
anyone to actually read them.
>> Slap a fee on the door, and these companies won't bother coming. Fans,
>> likewise, won't bother going in either. The dealer room acts as a great
>> buffer for attendees to mill around while they're between events. They've
>> already paid to get into the con - and by extension - the dealer's room.
>> Putting an additional fee on the dealer's room means fewer people will
>> bother, which in turn will mean you'll have a huge crowd of fans looking
>> for something to do.
>
> That's part of the point -- most of the cons are way too damn big,
> especially the larger events.
I know your goal is to intelligently reduce the con attendance, but
there's a difference between reducing attendance, and killing the con
outright.
Putting extra fees around the dealer's room - either to get into the
thing, or forcing people to spend $X - won't just reduce attendance -
they'll KILL it. It will be a death blow from which the con won't recover.
>> I wouldn't say they were "run out". Outgrew, yes.
>
> Run out. I will say that.
That doesn't make it true. AX'07 wouldn't have fit at Anaheim even if
they were properly planning for >50K attendees.
>> You actually went to an anime con?
>
> Basically, the only ways I have are largely sleeping in the screening
> rooms. I'm not going to pay $300 for a hotel room I'm not going to
> use without being escorted by police.
*headdesk*headdesk*headdesk*
So...you ARE one of these "undesireables" you rant about.
The con's rules say no sleeping in the screening rooms - if you don't like
it, don't go to the con!
$300 for a hotel room? Sheesh. You're doing it wrong. Find 2 or 3
others to cram into the room and split the cost. From your descriptions,
you aren't going to be sleeping in the room very much anyways.
No one I've known to go to a con ever went alone, nor slept in a room by
themselves. Besides which, if you do a bit more shopping you can often
find cheap rooms through Hotels.com that aren't TOO far from the con. This
is what my friend and I did for AX'96. We stayed at a hotel about a mile
from the con. We could take a shuttle to the con in the morning, walk back
at night, and we were only paying $150 (total).
>> For someone who hates anime fans so much, you certainly read about cons a
>> lot.
>
> I do. (Both grounds...) I need to, unlike a lot of other people, try
> to know what I'm talking about as to WHY I hate anime fandom and the
> like.
Sure, but in the meantime, you sound like one of those anti-porn
protestors whose found with a huge stack of porn...for research purposes,
of course. Or the guy on the internet who seriously sits through R-rated
movies so he can count and classify each and every moment in the movie that
offends him.
WHY would you put yourself through something like that? Geeze. It's no
wonder the cons haven't started asking you to please not come back next
year. All you're doing is taking up space that would be better used by
someone who actually WANTS to attend the con.
> And when you don't the venue has to bite back...
>
> (Which see last year's AX...)
Unfortunately.
This year's AX is supposed to be held downtown near the Staples Center.
Last time I was down there (about a decade ago) there wasn't much down
there other than a few bars. I hope the AX staff know what they're doing.
>> At the same time, any professional staff present must be, you know,
>> professional. That was not the experience I had at AX. The professional
>> security force that was brought in was not in communication with the
>> con's staff whatsoever. They were little more than just crowd control.
>> They didn't know where people were supposed to go, or where different
>> events were. I doubt most of them had ever even worked at a con before
>> that.
>
> Because they saw the con people to be absolutely incompetent and
> essentially seized control of the con center before the entire mess
> just completely imploded upon itself. I mean, if I were the staff at
> the Westin hotel in Long Beach, I'd have thrown the convention out by
> the third evening. Thrown... them... out.
From the facility's point of view, a badly run event isn't their concern
- so long as the attendees don't get out of control. If that happens, or
if there are blatant safety violations (like shoving 300 people into a
room for 100) then the facility can take action. AX was just ridiculous
as even the fan staff had no clue what to do, or where to send people.
The in-house security forces, however, weren't even effective at basic con
security - such as dealing with weapons and peace-bonding. Guy with a
real sword (or at least, appeared to be a real sword) - no problem!
> The fact of the matter is: At some point, either the con itself has
> to show it knows it's head from it's ass, or else it's going to be a
> very large problem.
From what I've read, AX'07 was the first year for the "new" staff. Let's
hope they've gotten better and handle AX'08 better...
>> We may see attendance drop, but it's hardly going to be the end of cons as
>> we know them.
>
> What if the price of gas increases another buck and a half or so?
> Where you gonna get the guests? Where you gonna get enough attendees
> to pay for the guests?? Where you gonna get the dealers?
Higher gas prices will have an effect - don't get me wrong. But it's not
going to kill the cons outright.
Higher prices for the dealers are already being passed to the consumer.
I think we can hit $5/gal without TOO much negative impact. $6, $7, or
god forbid, $8+/gal on the other hand...
>> Just looking at AX in particular, there are still *LOTS* of anime fans in
>> the LA metropolitan area alone.
>
> We'll see. If they get through this year's con without someone
> getting shot, I'll be shocked.
Let's hope that doesn't happen. Seriously.
The last thing I want to read about is some Bleach fanboy and his catgirl
girlfriend being robbed at gunpoint in downtoan LA...
Doug Jacobs
> Obviously, some degree of local residency would be allowed, but the
> level of transit might become an issue. Take this year's AX for
> example. If you don't have a car or a close hotel, you might as well
> not be coming -- once the Blue Line shuts down, it gets real
> interesting. Far too interesting...
Maybe so, but for the locals, they're probably only interested in hitting
the con for a few hours or so. Most of the locals at AX had a car, or were
with someone who had a car, or were going to be picked up by mommy.
You make due with what you've got. If the bus is all you have and the bus
stops at 6pm, then you better on that bus.
Doug Jacobs
> On May 28, 11:15?am, Doug Jacobs <djac...@shell.rawbw.com> wrote:
>
>> The con is not - and should not be - your baby sitter. ?If someone attends
>> a con and can't afford a hotel room or doesn't otherwise make arrangements
>> to stay somewhere at night, that's not the con's problem.
>
> Then the con should make it an issue and make it impossible for that
> person to attend.
>
> Yes, absolutely _impossible_.
From your previous posts, you're the type of person that should be
prevented from going to cons. You don't want to be there, you aren't a
fan, and you willingly sleep in screening rooms until the staff gets the
cops after you.
As I said, the con is not your baby sitter. Nor should they be
responsible for you taking care of your self. If you pose a problem or
threat to the con itself, the con is well within its rights to deal with
you in that manner.
It should not be the con's responsibility to make sure everyone has some
place to go home to at night. What, you would have the cons FORCE
everyone to get a hotel room if they wish to attend the con? You even
said you had a hotel room - BUT REFUSED TO USE IT. So using you as an
example, that tactic wouldn't work, even if con goers accepted it.
>> I do agree that the con should shut down at some point at night (say, 2am)
>> as opposed to running 24 hours straight. ?Anyone left at that point should
>> just be turned out onto the streets. ?They can come back in when the con
>> opens the next morning (8-9am?)
>
> We agree there. Absolutely. But the fact is if that's an issue with
> the con, then the con needs to make it clear that these people are not
> welcome there.
So, why are you still going? You're the very sort of person you claim the
cons need to get rid of.
> I'm not just talking about AX, but I agree totally. There needed to
> be a professional seizure takeover of AX after last year's debacle,
> and I fear for the safety of any attendees this year. And, as for
> shuttles: They couldn't have accounted for gas increasing 75 cents a
> gallon in the last 12 months.
Increasing gas prices usually just cause consumer prices to go up. Food
is a prime example. Trucks need gas to bring produce to the store. When
gas goes up, the cost gets passed to the consumer.
>> Either way, neither solution of yours is going to fix these problems. ?
>> Instead, they'd just end up alienating con-goers and fans (you know...the
>> folks you're holding the con for in the first place?) and would ultimately
>> be the death of any con stupid enough to try them.
>
> Some of them need to be alienated...
>
> And, no, I don't think that the cons hold the events for the fans. If
> they did, they'd take this a lot more into account.
>
> The cons are holding the events to fill the hotel space, or they would
> not be allowed around.
This is utterly ridiculous. Cons don't make any money from filling
hotels.
Doug Jacobs
>
> Then bring the cops in. Because there's ZERO POINT (as we've both
> established) to having 24-hour events and not then expecting that
> people are going to crash out. That's a matter of definition. A con
> absolutely should be compelled (and may have it written into its own
> permits and the like) to shut down at a certain hour. You're seeing
> this more and more -- A-Kon did it two or three years ago. JTAF did
> it year 3. I'm sure many can come up with other examples.
There are certainly times to bring in the cops, but I would hope that both
the person involved and con-security would be mature enough to deal with
this situation by themselves.
Personally, I'd say issue 1 warning, then escort the person out. If he
resists or otherwise makes trouble, threaten to take his badge. If that
doesn't get him to behave, then it's time to get the cops. Get them to
pull his badge, and escort him off the premises. If the guy still acts
up, now it's a police matter. If they want to arrest the guy, so be it.
What I don't understand is why you're so actively complaining about this
situation when you yourself have adkmitted to doing the very thing
multiple times, at multiple cons! Folks like you should have their names
and faces printed up in the con security handbook under the section of
"KNOWN TROUBLE MAKERS".
> The thing is, at some point, the only point in going to the show is
> seeing how far you can (physically and legally) push it. As I said,
> if they enforced it as tightly as they did at some shows, I would
> never have attended 20 or so of these cons. I might've made 3.
Wait, so you're complaining that the other shows let you get away with
breaking the rules? You really ARE asking to have your name/face printed
up on WANTED-style posters...
Of course, you don't like cons anyways, so I really don't know why you've
spent so much time and money on them...
> It would also require a security escort out of the facility for people
> to be thrown out of the building after relevant time. I'd take it one
> final step: You have to have a hotel near enough to the convention
> center that you can be escorted there. But your idea is a quite good
> one.
Escorting you back to your hotel adds extra liability to the con. Simply
pushing you out the front door and locking it behind you is all they need
to do. It's the old "You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here"
policy.
> The thing here is that I stand by what I said before: I truly don't
> think a lot of these shows want people to know what really goes on
> therein. I mean, from what I could assert, Fanime had to go pretty
> much "No Glomping" to prevent the cops from having to be called in.
Well, if I were a con organizer, I'd certainly hope that MOST infractions
could be dealt with by local security. If a crime was committed - say
shoplifting - then security should yank the guy's badge and restrain him.
Then turn him over to the police. At that point, it's a matter between
the police and the vendor.
For other things, like harassment, it's a bit fuzzier. AX made it clear
that ANY such behavior would result in being instantly kicked out of the
con, and possibly turned over to the police. They also made it clear that
congoers should know that AX doesn't condone such behavior at all, and if
anyone felt bothered or unsafe because of another attendee, contact the
staff.
I would guess that most of the verbiage in that area came from past
incidents.
sanjian
Actually, Blade, I was just going to let this one go, even though I agree
with his blaming the dems. I had already stepped in it over the Mohammed
issue, so I didn't want to get involved again. Did you want me involved?
Invid Fan
Jacobs <dja...@shell.rawbw.com> wrote:
> darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On May 28, 11:15?am, Doug Jacobs <djac...@shell.rawbw.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The con is not - and should not be - your baby sitter. ?If someone attends
> >> a con and can't afford a hotel room or doesn't otherwise make arrangements
> >> to stay somewhere at night, that's not the con's problem.
> >
> > Then the con should make it an issue and make it impossible for that
> > person to attend.
> >
> > Yes, absolutely _impossible_.
>
> From your previous posts, you're the type of person that should be
> prevented from going to cons. You don't want to be there, you aren't a
> fan, and you willingly sleep in screening rooms until the staff gets the
> cops after you.
>
I assume he also goes to 24 hour supermarkets and sleeps there :)
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
> darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On May 28, 11:15?am, Doug Jacobs <djac...@shell.rawbw.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The con is not - and should not be - your baby sitter. ?If someone attends
> >> a con and can't afford a hotel room or doesn't otherwise make arrangements
> >> to stay somewhere at night, that's not the con's problem.
> >
> > Then the con should make it an issue and make it impossible for that
> > person to attend.
> >
> > Yes, absolutely _impossible_.
>
> From your previous posts, you're the type of person that should be
> prevented from going to cons. You don't want to be there, you aren't a
> fan, and you willingly sleep in screening rooms until the staff gets the
> cops after you.
>
> As I said, the con is not your baby sitter. Nor should they be
> responsible for you taking care of your self. If you pose a problem or
> threat to the con itself, the con is well within its rights to deal with
> you in that manner.
>
> It should not be the con's responsibility to make sure everyone has some
> place to go home to at night. What, you would have the cons FORCE
> everyone to get a hotel room if they wish to attend the con? You even
> said you had a hotel room - BUT REFUSED TO USE IT. So using you as an
> example, that tactic wouldn't work, even if con goers accepted it.
>
Well, he wants cons to ban him.
It seems he's looking for a reason beyond his control
that would prevent him from addicting cons.
Isn't there a psychology term for such behavior?
> >
> >> I do agree that the con should shut down at some point at night (say, 2am)
> >> as opposed to running 24 hours straight. ?Anyone left at that point should
> >> just be turned out onto the streets. ?They can come back in when the con
> >> opens the next morning (8-9am?)
> >
> > We agree there. Absolutely. But the fact is if that's an issue with
> > the con, then the con needs to make it clear that these people are not
> > welcome there.
>
> So, why are you still going? You're the very sort of person you claim the
> cons need to get rid of.
>
Self-loathing? "I am fen. I hate fen. We're the scourge of fandom."
This is sounding more and more like a psychology study. ^_^
Laters. =)
STan
--
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ LostRune+sig [at] UofR [dot] net
| ( _| | http://www.uofr.net/~lostrune/
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | |
/ \/ \| _ | |\ |
/___/\/\___|__| |__|___| \ ___|
darkst...@gmail.com
Exactly. And, like Starbucks, unless the con completely craters to
the point where either it is unable to complete or basically goes
under as a result of its incompetence, then the "brand name" might
still keep it up for a while.
Mike (I'd give an example, but many would see it as projection.
Let's just sAy that there is an eXtra-big convention coming up, and is
about (as of this morning's read of their event sponsorship page) only
getting sponsors for about a third of its sponsored events, and is at
least $55,000 short on the rest of them...)
darkst...@gmail.com
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > You want people to come, but you don't want so many people to come
> > that it just becomes a complete clusterfuck.
> > Past a certain point, the staff might not be able to handle it -- the
> > infrastructure can't handle it -- the VENUE might not be able to
> > handle it. And then, that's when things really start clusterfucking.
> > That's where you have to start making unwelcome elements you find
> > undesirable for whatever reason.
>
> So, there are a few problems here:
>
> * Infrastructure
> * Staff
Yes, but the problem here is, once a con gets to a certain size, it
can't go to a bigger place.
And, as for staff, this is where the largest of the cons need to go
fully professional (but with a group who might be able to deal with
the unique challenges anime fans might provide -- of course, any pro
group worth its salt should be able to do that with most any
convention experience, but still...)
> Both of these need to scale with the con. If the con starts growing, the
> staff (organization) better scale with it. Unfortunately it's not quite
> so easy to do with a convention center. If a con outgrows a facility,
> there's not really much you can do other than find a larger facility,
> start capping con attendance (as you mentioned) or pray the fire marshals
> are out of town during the con...
And, all I can say is, with the example given, I think they're very
lucky vis-a-vis that particular con at certain complete traffic
bottlenecks.
> > I'm honestly shocked a con of some size or another hasn't been shut
> > down for some of this. Perhaps it's all by the grace of whatever, but
> > still...
>
> I'd be interested to know what the facility's take on all this is. It
> could be they're well aware of the bottlenecks, but can't do anything to
> remodel the building to fix them. Or, perhaps they just don't care so
> long as they get paid, and no one smashes up the place.
I think it's the latter, as I've postulated before. And it's not just
THAT venue -- but consider what a con that puts 15000 people into a
place like downtown Dallas does for downtown Dallas over the course of
a Thuesday to the following Sunday or even Monday...
> After all, anime cons aren't the only events to have these problems. I've
> been to professional (hah!) trade shows that have had some of the very
> same problems that we see at anime (or other fandom) cons.
At least with those, you're dealing with a clientele is supposedly
professional, social, and the like.
You can't say the same for anime fans.
> >> Your idea of having a con that's soooo difficult to get into just doesn't
> >> make any sense. So...you're planning l33t-con.
>
> > Well, at some point, that's kinda what I view as a lot of the cons
> > _want_. As well as some of the fans too.
>
> I don't know. I've always been anti-l33t, myself. The l33t will always
> find someway to distinguish themselves from the others - if they want.
Maybe... But I think that there has to be at least some form of
desire on the part of the con organizers to cater to those who so
distinguish -- and to make unwelcome as many of the others as becomes
necessary to have an efficient show.
> >> Step 1: Don't advertise. Have a multi-thousand dollar pre-reg fee. Have
> >> pre-reg end last year (you know, before you announced the con).
>
> > At some point, perhaps the cost of the con has to start including that
> > you have to produce the means by which to attend the con lawfully and
> > the like. I've had it put to me in no uncertain terms that people
> > like me make it harder for cons to get re-upped for the next year,
> > and, as far as that goes, if that's the case, then a hotel reservation
> > should have to be made first before the convention will take your
> > money for the con itself.
>
> Sounds to me like you're on the verge of becoming one of those
> "undesireables" that you rant about so much.
One of the reasons it becomes a pet peeve. I'm just saying to go
ahead and actually codify the mess.
> One of the points of having a con is to help fans connect with other
> fans.
Then that is me out to begin with. There are more than a few fans I
wouldn't want anything to do with -- and others who wouldn't want to
do with me either.
(And some, probably of each group, that it wouldn't be safe for me to
deal with either. I have to be a little more careful than most who I
associate with at such events.)
> The reg. fee of the con is to pay for the cost of having the con
> (facilities, paying for security, staff, etc.) Some of these costs can be
> defrayed by having vendors or other ways. Of course if you make a con TOO
> expensive, then no one will go.
You have to strike a balance to keep the chaff out, and get your
target audience (read: Those who will spend a lot of $$$$$ to the
vendors and to the hoteliers and the C of C and the like...) in.
> >> Step 2:
>
> > Step 2?
>
> It's the (in)famous 3 step plan to profit from the Underwear Gnomes from
> South Park. No one knows what Step Two is. If we did, we'd already be
> rich ;)
:) Thanks.
> >> Step 3: Profit! Best run con ever - no crowds, no security problems, no
> >> loiterers, no trouble makers, and best of all, NO ATTENDEES!
>
> > If you get the con to a level where people want to come back, and you
> > get the con to a level where the venue actually _wants you to come
> > back_, then you're already ahead of the game.
>
> Getting people to come back is a matter of having a well run con - and that
> means having the staff and facilities properly scaled to the expected
> attendance for the con. If you're expecting 50k people, for instance,
> then obviously the facilities and plans you made for 20k or even 30k
> aren't going to work. It's one thing if you honestly thought you were
> only going to have 30k, and you end up with 50k, but I would think that
> any decent con plan would include some thought about what to do in that
> situation - including capping attendance, being able to get extra staff
> online quickly, etc.
Here's the other kicker: How much of the staff do you think really
wants to help with the con (as opposed to just glomming the free badge
off the con??)... That's another issue.
> > At some point, these non-profit cons have to realize bigger is NOT
> > necessarily better.
>
> Only if the staff isn't able to grow along side.
And most don't -- at least not where I've attended.
Here's the thing: This isn't a matter of "more [staff] is better",
either.
If I've heard one person say "Get on staff and make it better", I've
heard hundreds.
The problem is that the problems, in most cases, are top-level
organizational and need to be dealt with as such.
> >> Yes that makes no sense to me either. Especially when the con guidebook
> >> specifically states that you should plan for sleeping and eating. It
> >> won't do you any good if you pass out.
>
> > That's the point I'm trying to make: If you are going to have so much
> > fun at 3 AM, people are going to crash anywhere they can find.
> > Hallways, the con center atrium, under the tables, the screening
> > rooms, blah blah blah...
>
> However, the con guide book also pointed out that that wasn't allowed
> either. Look, for the most part, we aren't talking about little kids
> here. Most con goers are going to be 18, and therefore should be
> responsible for themselves. That includes them having plans for meals and
> sleeping that don't otherwise violate con guidelines. If the con wants to
> throw an event at 3am (and I really don't know why they would) it's still
> the responsibility of the attendees to still obey the guidelines - and
> that means no sleeping at the facilities. Anyone interested in such an
> event has hopefully had the foresight to get a hotel room nearby - either
> that or shows the maturity to realize when it's time to leave so as not to
> be a danger to himself or others while driving.
The problem is also one of due diligence. The con needs to realize
that, short of calling the police and yanking badges, they're creating
the situation where people will do it (and, in many cases, if they
want to attend as many events as they wish to, almost HAVE TO -- in
some cases, a remote hotel costs you 12-18 hours of a con), and the
fact is is that if people are going to do it, then the con is
partially responsible for that.
(Of course, one thing which puzzles me is what kind of permits
actually allow that kind of 24-hour situation to go on in the first
place...)
But, as for me, I would've lasted one show in anime fandom if that had
happened. I'd have been run off about May of 2004 in that case. As
I've said before, of about 20 major cons I've atended which would've
required hotels, I've done full hotel or 3. Couldn't afford to go
otherwise.
(Don't like it? Arrest me or gain a court order barring me from
future events.)
> There's already enough "nanny-ism" in this country as it is. Let's not
> add to it.
Sorry -- I'm a believer that if you really want something, codify it
and enforce it. An unenforced law is no law.
> > There is no reason to have events that late unless you expect
> > everything which comes with them and accept that as part and parcel of
> > what occurs. If you won't do that or (by law) can't do that, then
> > reconsider your schedule.
>
> > (And many cons have...)
>
> I agree there isn't much point in such a late night or all-night event at
> a con. Even if the con-goers are willing to stay up all night, hopped up
> on no-doze and red bull, the staff members are going to need their sleep -
> more so than the con-goers.
I've seen staffs at these cons bring cases of the crap.
And I remarked to myself that that's not safe for the con either.
They're understaffed as it is. The motivations for being on staff,
for a few of them, are questionable. Why make it worse by stringing
the schedule out to God's creation?
> >> Again, not all cons run around the clock. Most cons DO shut down.
>
> > Yes, but that has only come over time. One SHOULD expect the con to
> > say "Everybody out!!" at some semi-reasoned hour.
>
> Very much so. AX is the only con I know of that runs 24 hours like that.
> The other cons seem to shut down at some point - at least for 5-6 hours.
> If AX wants to do that, that is their perrogative. They're still
> responsible for upholding the guidelines though - and that means no
> sleeping in the con rooms.
And that means they better call the police on people like me (or take
steps to ensure people like me don't attend), then. Because there's
zero way more than a few of us could afford to be at the shows (or
actually go to the cities to be at the shows (and not spend most of
the time at the hotels)) otherwise.
> >> Most folks I know who do go to con, don't stay at the con all the time.
> >> You pick and choose your events and plan your schedule accordingly.
>
> > Most of the events I wish to attend are overnight -- the problem is
> > that there's enough going on during the day to make such scheduling
> > rather.... _interesting_.
>
> Eh? First you're slamming the con for not shutting down, and now you're
> saying those very events at 3am or whatnot are the very ones you WANT to
> attend?
They could move them like some cons are doing. But, yes, most of the
events I've wanted to do are that late -- and that's what gets me in
some heat with con organizers later on.
> From my memory of what the late night events were at AX, it sounds like
> you'd just be better off going to a dedicated hentai con.
Ummm, no.
(If it were only that easy.)
(FWIW, I wouldn't last five minutes if I really wanted to be ecchi at
a hentai con.)
> > You see, I see conventions as an immersive experience. If you don't
> > immerse yourself in the con, you don't get enough escape to make it
> > worth the expense you _do_ put into it.
>
> Immersive or not, you still need to eat and sleep. At AX last year there
> were plenty of con-goers scattered all over the place outside of the main
> convetional halls, so you could continue your "immersive experience" even
> at the nearby Chili's or burger hut. Heck, we continued to run into
> AX'ers all over LA, and even back home in the Bay Area (non-locals
> stretched their trip to cover San Fran., Monterey, etc.) That was rather
> neat actually.
I don't go to cons to be around other people.
> > That's if you have (and can afford the gas for!!) a vehicle.
> > Otherwise, you begin to go at the mercy of the transit or of more-
> > remote hotel shuttles.
>
> In college, I had plenty of friends with a car who were easily bribed with
> gas money and a bit of food. Besides, if you're coming from further away,
> chances are you're going to be coming in a group. You know, roadtrip
> style.
Nope. I travel alone.
> > (One of the reasons I have serious doubts, as the price of gas
> > explodes, as to the future of these events...)
>
> Well, gas is going to be a concern over the next few years at least...
> Though I don't think it'll have TOO big of an impact on most cons.
I disagree. I think it's already beginning to have some effect
already.
> >> If you put a fee on entering the dealer's room, you might as well not have
> >> dealers at all.
>
> > No no no... What I said earlier was to say that part of the entrance
> > fee is that you have to spend $X in the Dealers' Room. There are
> > certain conventions I've attended where the Dealers' Room has been
> > pointless, and a waste of time and money for them involved.
>
> That will have the same effect - kill the con.
If that's the case, there's no point to having the Dealers' Room.
(One could easily say there's no point in having the con at all in
that case, but I will definitely say that there's then no point in
having the Dealers' Room.)
> As I mentioned, AX's dealer's room was mostly pointless. The vast
> majority of stuff for sale was available from the same stores'
> websites...for less (or at least, no tax, and sometimes free shipping.)
Basically, all AX's room should be is an industry room. Of course,
how many of those will be left is another discussion.
> > I mean, what these cons have to do is set a minimum expectation of
> > what they demand of their attendees, and basically force every
> > attendee to do that or don't register -- because those who choose not
> > to will be dealt with with extreme prejudice.
>
> Most locals who are only going to go for 1 day aren't going to register.
And probably wouldn't have to worry about a lot of the other issues.
But you've seen what AX can turn into...
> Worse still, many of the locals who do go to cons are either the crusty
> old folks (like me) or the young kids just getting into fandom. I've run
> the whole spectrum now. Fandom cannot survive if you whack one of those
> segments - and fandom IS the whole point of a con.
If fandom were the whole point of a con, I'm not sure the venues would
want them back. Which see AX.
> Also, from an organizing standpoint, the dealer's room acts as a giant
> buffer - giving people some place to go between events. Think of it as a
> giant heatsink, or bucket. It helps keep the other areas of the con less
> crowded and congested. AX did one thing right in that the vendor's room
> also had food for sale along the back walls of the hall, so you could very
> well spend an entire day in there when you weren't trying to attend
> another event.
But that doesn't do you any good if you just got out of an event at 9
PM and the next event is "How to Talk to Girls" at midnight and then
the screening at 2 AM, the karaoke at 3:30 AM...
> > (In much the same vein as a con organizer telling me that screening
> > rooms and events are becoming just as pointless...)
>
> The screening rooms at AX'07 were pointless. I made another post about
> some ideas that could make them interesting again...not that I expect
> anyone to actually read them.
I don't expect anyone to take them seriously either because I think
people have completely missed the boat on AX. It's an industry con
and should be held as such.
(Not meant as a flame at you.)
> >> Slap a fee on the door, and these companies won't bother coming. Fans,
> >> likewise, won't bother going in either. The dealer room acts as a great
> >> buffer for attendees to mill around while they're between events. They've
> >> already paid to get into the con - and by extension - the dealer's room.
> >> Putting an additional fee on the dealer's room means fewer people will
> >> bother, which in turn will mean you'll have a huge crowd of fans looking
> >> for something to do.
>
> > That's part of the point -- most of the cons are way too damn big,
> > especially the larger events.
>
> I know your goal is to intelligently reduce the con attendance, but
> there's a difference between reducing attendance, and killing the con
> outright.
If the con can't reduce attendance to the people who will attend it in
the way it is desired and for the point in which it is desired, then
the con needs to die.
(I'm not saying "and not one person more" -- but I am saying that they
need to reduce it a quite fair amount...)
> >> I wouldn't say they were "run out". Outgrew, yes.
>
> > Run out. I will say that.
>
> That doesn't make it true. AX'07 wouldn't have fit at Anaheim even if
> they were properly planning for >50K attendees.
Problem is, at that point, you REG-CAP THE DARN THING.
You don't let the con get that big!! Again, as has been demonstrated
with the last two God-awful clusterfucks that AX have turned in to,
bigger IS NOT better.
> >> You actually went to an anime con?
>
> > Basically, the only ways I have are largely sleeping in the screening
> > rooms. I'm not going to pay $300 for a hotel room I'm not going to
> > use without being escorted by police.
>
> *headdesk*headdesk*headdesk*
>
> So...you ARE one of these "undesireables" you rant about.
Hence the pet peeve.
> The con's rules say no sleeping in the screening rooms - if you don't like
> it, don't go to the con!
Then call the cops or get a restraining order.
> $300 for a hotel room? Sheesh. You're doing it wrong. Find 2 or 3
> others to cram into the room and split the cost. From your descriptions,
> you aren't going to be sleeping in the room very much anyways.
Ummm, that's if you can co-exist with those people over the course of
the con or can trust them.
> No one I've known to go to a con ever went alone, nor slept in a room by
> themselves. Besides which, if you do a bit more shopping you can often
> find cheap rooms through Hotels.com that aren't TOO far from the con. This
> is what my friend and I did for AX'96. We stayed at a hotel about a mile
> from the con. We could take a shuttle to the con in the morning, walk back
> at night, and we were only paying $150 (total).
Basically, I can't give more than maybe a month in advance for most
cons -- I can't trust I won't be in jail or somewhere else a month
from now.
> WHY would you put yourself through something like that? Geeze. It's no
> wonder the cons haven't started asking you to please not come back next
> year. All you're doing is taking up space that would be better used by
> someone who actually WANTS to attend the con.
The last two years, I had major questions about wanting to attend AX.
I can say, quite enquivocably, I have _ZERO_ regrets about not being
allowed this year.
> > And when you don't the venue has to bite back...
>
> > (Which see last year's AX...)
>
> Unfortunately.
>
> This year's AX is supposed to be held downtown near the Staples Center.
> Last time I was down there (about a decade ago) there wasn't much down
> there other than a few bars. I hope the AX staff know what they're doing.
*stifled chuckle*
> > Because they saw the con people to be absolutely incompetent and
> > essentially seized control of the con center before the entire mess
> > just completely imploded upon itself. I mean, if I were the staff at
> > the Westin hotel in Long Beach, I'd have thrown the convention out by
> > the third evening. Thrown... them... out.
>
> From the facility's point of view, a badly run event isn't their concern
> - so long as the attendees don't get out of control. If that happens, or
> if there are blatant safety violations (like shoving 300 people into a
> room for 100) then the facility can take action. AX was just ridiculous
> as even the fan staff had no clue what to do, or where to send people.
> The in-house security forces, however, weren't even effective at basic con
> security - such as dealing with weapons and peace-bonding. Guy with a
> real sword (or at least, appeared to be a real sword) - no problem!
Then the attendees are getting out of control.
> > The fact of the matter is: At some point, either the con itself has
> > to show it knows it's head from it's ass, or else it's going to be a
> > very large problem.
>
> From what I've read, AX'07 was the first year for the "new" staff. Let's
> hope they've gotten better and handle AX'08 better...
Another "new" staff has been put in for 08 -- most of the 07 group was
essentially run out on a rail from what I gather.
> >> We may see attendance drop, but it's hardly going to be the end of cons as
> >> we know them.
>
> > What if the price of gas increases another buck and a half or so?
> > Where you gonna get the guests? Where you gonna get enough attendees
> > to pay for the guests?? Where you gonna get the dealers?
>
> Higher gas prices will have an effect - don't get me wrong. But it's not
> going to kill the cons outright.
I disagree, especially to the extent I see gas prices going up in the
next 12 months. We're already about 80 cents up year-to-year, and
most people believe the increase is not a line, it's a curve.
> I think we can hit $5/gal without TOO much negative impact. $6, $7, or
> god forbid, $8+/gal on the other hand...
I think $5 comes before the end of the year. $6 is a very real
possibility (and trial balloons are almost being sent up to prepare
the public for it) by next summer.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
Then why'd you go in the first place? Especially at their price and
especially with the potential for the lines?
Mike (I could see cases you might get four hours for your money...)
darkst...@gmail.com
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On May 28, 11:15?am, Doug Jacobs <djac...@shell.rawbw.com> wrote:
>
> >> The con is not - and should not be - your baby sitter. ?If someone attends
> >> a con and can't afford a hotel room or doesn't otherwise make arrangements
> >> to stay somewhere at night, that's not the con's problem.
>
> > Then the con should make it an issue and make it impossible for that
> > person to attend.
>
> > Yes, absolutely _impossible_.
>
> From your previous posts, you're the type of person that should be
> prevented from going to cons. You don't want to be there, you aren't a
> fan, and you willingly sleep in screening rooms until the staff gets the
> cops after you.
Yes. Because there's no point in having the rooms open all night
otherwise. I've been in all-night rooms awake. Most times, the only
person awake. Many others, the only person PERIOD.
> As I said, the con is not your baby sitter. Nor should they be
> responsible for you taking care of your self. If you pose a problem or
> threat to the con itself, the con is well within its rights to deal with
> you in that manner.
Then they had better start doing so. As I said, if I actually treated
the convention as others do and people knew who I was and what I had
been accused of in school, they'd ban me from every convention in the
country.
No -- fucking -- joke.
> It should not be the con's responsibility to make sure everyone has some
> place to go home to at night. What, you would have the cons FORCE
> everyone to get a hotel room if they wish to attend the con? You even
> said you had a hotel room - BUT REFUSED TO USE IT. So using you as an
> example, that tactic wouldn't work, even if con goers accepted it.
Then you call the cops and I go to jail. No big whoop there.
> >> I do agree that the con should shut down at some point at night (say, 2am)
> >> as opposed to running 24 hours straight. ?Anyone left at that point should
> >> just be turned out onto the streets. ?They can come back in when the con
> >> opens the next morning (8-9am?)
>
> > We agree there. Absolutely. But the fact is if that's an issue with
> > the con, then the con needs to make it clear that these people are not
> > welcome there.
>
> So, why are you still going? You're the very sort of person you claim the
> cons need to get rid of.
Actually, the last show I attended was in February. I don't know when
the next one will be.
> >> Either way, neither solution of yours is going to fix these problems. ?
> >> Instead, they'd just end up alienating con-goers and fans (you know...the
> >> folks you're holding the con for in the first place?) and would ultimately
> >> be the death of any con stupid enough to try them.
>
> > Some of them need to be alienated...
>
> > And, no, I don't think that the cons hold the events for the fans. If
> > they did, they'd take this a lot more into account.
>
> > The cons are holding the events to fill the hotel space, or they would
> > not be allowed around.
>
> This is utterly ridiculous. Cons don't make any money from filling
> hotels.
No, but the hotels make the money from being filled by having the cons
around -- and, given a lot of what I've seen at cons, that's the only
reason they put up with the bullshit.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> There are certainly times to bring in the cops, but I would hope that both
> the person involved and con-security would be mature enough to deal with
> this situation by themselves.
>
> Personally, I'd say issue 1 warning, then escort the person out. If he
> resists or otherwise makes trouble, threaten to take his badge. If that
> doesn't get him to behave, then it's time to get the cops. Get them to
> pull his badge, and escort him off the premises. If the guy still acts
> up, now it's a police matter. If they want to arrest the guy, so be it.
They'd have arrested me in 2007 at least twice then.
> What I don't understand is why you're so actively complaining about this
> situation when you yourself have adkmitted to doing the very thing
> multiple times, at multiple cons! Folks like you should have their names
> and faces printed up in the con security handbook under the section of
> "KNOWN TROUBLE MAKERS".
Basically, at this point, I am half-torn between continuing in fandom
and getting officially banned from every convention in the country, in
that exact manner.
> > The thing is, at some point, the only point in going to the show is
> > seeing how far you can (physically and legally) push it. As I said,
> > if they enforced it as tightly as they did at some shows, I would
> > never have attended 20 or so of these cons. I might've made 3.
>
> Wait, so you're complaining that the other shows let you get away with
> breaking the rules? You really ARE asking to have your name/face printed
> up on WANTED-style posters...
No. I'm just saying that that's about the only point in going to the
show anymore, given the schedules and the like.
If I attended cons like "normal people" did, I'd probably be in my
room more than I was at the con -- then, why did I go to con, and why
did I come to this city in the first damn place?
> Of course, you don't like cons anyways, so I really don't know why you've
> spent so much time and money on them...
I used to enjoy them quite a bit. They provided about the only escape
I had.
> > It would also require a security escort out of
the facility for people
> > to be thrown out of the building after relevant time. I'd take it one
> > final step: You have to have a hotel near enough to the convention
> > center that you can be escorted there. But your idea is a quite good
> > one.
>
> Escorting you back to your hotel adds extra liability to the con. Simply
> pushing you out the front door and locking it behind you is all they need
> to do. It's the old "You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here"
> policy.
I was actually going with your post-2 AM theory.
> > The thing here is that I stand by what I said before: I truly don't
> > think a lot of these shows want people to know what really goes on
> > therein. I mean, from what I could assert, Fanime had to go pretty
> > much "No Glomping" to prevent the cops from having to be called in.
>
> Well, if I were a con organizer, I'd certainly hope that MOST infractions
> could be dealt with by local security. If a crime was committed - say
> shoplifting - then security should yank the guy's badge and restrain him.
> Then turn him over to the police. At that point, it's a matter between
> the police and the vendor.
From what I've gathered, they can't. They're hopelessly outnumbered,
they're hopelessly underprepared, and, frankly, barring a full police
force on the venue, how many people can you really so detain at once?
Mike
Jim diGriz
> David Nakamoto <david.n...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> The technical aspects of running the convention should be run
>> professionally, if not by a professional company, to keep things
>> efficient and under control. They have more experience, and know what
>> works and not. The content of the convention should be dictate and run
>> by the usual people. No one really gripes strongly about the content of
>> the majority of activities at a con, but we've all experienced major
>> flaws in how the con was run, con after con.
> And as we've all pointed out, it's largely the same set of problems, over
> and over again.
>> It's amazing that some cons, after so many years, still have not learned
>> from their experiences, or learned from others.
> Sadly, I've found the same type of behavior in businesses as well. I
> cannot tell you how many times I've filed the same set of bugs at company
> after company, or had watched as a company run by otherwise experienced
> people make the same set of mistakes that killed other companies - even
> companies they personally worked for previously.
Doesn't the manga/anime community have conrunner cons for people running
conventions? The panels are all about how to run conventions, and it's a
great occasion to absorb the collective experience of several
generations of convention organizers.
JdG
Farix
>
> Doesn't the manga/anime community have conrunner cons for people running
> conventions? The panels are all about how to run conventions, and it's a
> great occasion to absorb the collective experience of several
> generations of convention organizers.
No, but there has been discussion of doing it in the past. The closest
thing to that is the Anime Convention Mailing List.
Farix
Doug Jacobs
> I'll be a fucking asshole if I want to be. Don't like it. Three
> numbers for you. 9 - 1 - 1.
I sincerely hope anyone reading who is a con organizer, or knows someone
who is a con organizer, finds out your name and address so they can get
you onto every con's banned-for-life list. You'd like that wouldn't you?
No more cons to torment you. No more anguish overly poorly run events
about a topic you don't even like, for a fandom you utterly loathe.
> Call the fucking cops on me if you don't like it.
Why? Why does it have to come to that? The cons have enough other issues
to deal with than to deal with a selfish, self-centered, self-important
crybaby who doesn't even want to be there in the first place. If you
haven't worn out your welcome at cons yet, it's only a matter of time.
And then what? Is that supposed to be some sort of accomplishment for
you? Getting banned from events you don't even like?
> As for the "projection", I was saying this for about three solid weeks
> before I just finally told them to ban me if they didn't like having
> the truth rammed down their fucking throats.
>
> For example, I openly told them I'd be armed with a deadly weapon if I
> wanted to attend this year's show. I wasn't going to trust the SPJA
> to put together a sufficient security situation to hold the LACC to
> some degree of safety.
So, not only do you WANT to be banned, you're basically THREATENING the
con with a dangerous weapon if they DON'T ban you.
> (And don't give me this E3 shit either -- they're at least
> professionals and know what the fuck they are doing.)
>> ? It's called Metrolink . . .
>
> Here's a hint: From where I live in Riverside:
>
> It's already $10 -- and it's going to about $11.50 July 1.
>
> Multiply that by 8 for the four days of AX.
>
> Also, the first train leaves about 4 in the morning. The last train
> from LA leaves about 630 PM.
Don't they have monthly passes? I ride Caltrain to work, and my monthly
pass allows me to go anywhere on the weekends for free. Again, you're
being silly.
If the scheduling thing is a big problem - because we all know how much
you love sleeping at con - then rent a car. $40 for the car, $40 for
gas. You may not save any money but at least you'll be able to come and
go as you please, without worrying when the next train is when the staff
figures out who you are, and throws your disgruntled butt out of the
convention center.
> And why did I attend the con again???
You tell us. You're the one who hates cons, hates fans, hates anime, and
pretty much hates humanity. Just stay in your room, where you can stew and
seethe in your own juices in private.
Seriously, if anyone reading is involved with running a con, or knows
someone who is involved with running a con, I seriously hope these posts
of yours have convinced them to not just kick you out of their con, but to
ban you for life.
As I said, cons have enough legitimate problems to deal with without
having to deal with real-life griefers like you.
darkst...@gmail.com
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I'll be a fucking asshole if I want to be. Don't like it. Three
> > numbers for you. 9 - 1 - 1.
>
> I sincerely hope anyone reading who is a con organizer, or knows someone
> who is a con organizer, finds out your name and address so they can get
> you onto every con's banned-for-life list. You'd like that wouldn't you?
At the rate anime fandom is going, as long as they notify me that
that's the case, I don't give a shit anymore in most cases. In fact,
the only reason I'm not already in jail is because I'm helping a
friend down here in Southern California.
> No more cons to torment you. No more anguish overly poorly run events
> about a topic you don't even like, for a fandom you utterly loathe.
The anime stuff has gotten unlikeable, yes. The fandom, I do truly
loathe. I go for my own reasons -- not for the conventions', the
hotels', or anyone else's. If that's a fucking problem, I'll take
being banned from every show in the country. Just as long as I am so
notified.
> > Call the fucking cops on me if you don't like it.
>
> Why? Why does it have to come to that? The cons have enough other issues
> to deal with than to deal with a selfish, self-centered, self-important
> crybaby who doesn't even want to be there in the first place. If you
> haven't worn out your welcome at cons yet, it's only a matter of time.
> And then what? Is that supposed to be some sort of accomplishment for
> you? Getting banned from events you don't even like?
It has to come to that because I've lost most respect for the
incompetents who run most of these shows. And I've lost respect for
anime fandom as a whole. AND, if it is a legal issue, then call the
freaking cops and let's get at it for real. I don't respect that many
people who can't either knock me out or kill me.
> > As for the "projection", I was saying this for about three solid weeks
> > before I just finally told them to ban me if they didn't like having
> > the truth rammed down their fucking throats.
>
> > For example, I openly told them I'd be armed with a deadly weapon if I
> > wanted to attend this year's show. I wasn't going to trust the SPJA
> > to put together a sufficient security situation to hold the LACC to
> > some degree of safety.
>
> So, not only do you WANT to be banned, you're basically THREATENING the
> con with a dangerous weapon if they DON'T ban you.
No, I'm threatening the threat I see _to the convention_ which a
dangerous weapon. They didn't like that either.
> > (And don't give me this E3 shit either -- they're at least
> > professionals and know what the fuck they are doing.)
> >> ? It's called Metrolink . . .
>
> > Here's a hint: From where I live in Riverside:
>
> > It's already $10 -- and it's going to about $11.50 July 1.
>
> > Multiply that by 8 for the four days of AX.
>
> > Also, the first train leaves about 4 in the morning. The last train
> > from LA leaves about 630 PM.
>
> Don't they have monthly passes? I ride Caltrain to work, and my monthly
> pass allows me to go anywhere on the weekends for free. Again, you're
> being silly.
Let's see, monthly pass runs $282.50 now, and with a 7-10% increase
pending July 1 -- we're looking $300 in the face.
And you still don't answer the time issues...
> If the scheduling thing is a big problem - because we all know how much
> you love sleeping at con - then rent a car. $40 for the car, $40 for
> gas. You may not save any money but at least you'll be able to come and
> go as you please, without worrying when the next train is when the staff
> figures out who you are, and throws your disgruntled butt out of the
> convention center.
I don't have a drivers' license. I don't think they'd ever give me
one either, even if I knew how to drive.
> > And why did I attend the con again???
>
> You tell us. You're the one who hates cons, hates fans, hates anime, and
> pretty much hates humanity. Just stay in your room, where you can stew and
> seethe in your own juices in private.
You see, that's just it. I'm not attending the con to do anything but
fill the damn hotel space. Why do you think the cons are allowed to
continue?
> Seriously, if anyone reading is involved with running a con, or knows
> someone who is involved with running a con, I seriously hope these posts
> of yours have convinced them to not just kick you out of their con, but to
> ban you for life.
Look, that wouldn't be the first thing they would want to ban me for
life from...
> As I said, cons have enough legitimate problems to deal with without
> having to deal with real-life griefers like you.
Well, fine, then do something about it.
Michael Falkner
Bill Martin
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 15:03:51 -0500, Bill Martin
> <bill_r...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2008-05-27 22:34:59 -0500, darkst...@gmail.com said:
>>
>>> I'll ask you the same question I asked two other people who said the
>>> same thing: Where do you see gas prices in one year -- Memorial Day
>>> 2009...
>>>
>>> I truly believe $5.50 to $6 is not out of the question -- and that's
>>> going to squeeze potential conventions both ways. Higher costs to
>>> bring in the guests (especially from Japan) and higher costs for the
>>> attendees to come to attend.
>>>
>>> If you don't want to believe that, then fine. Ignore that $4.299 that
>>> you see out there in Riverside, CA -- or that $5.039 you see for
>>> diesel in Riverside, CA down at the Valero. Ignore all that -- sky
>>> falling, sure . . .
>>
>> Well, be sure to thank your Democratic Congress for the high gas
>> prices. They've stood in the way of new refineries being built.
>
> Uhhh, no, that would be the oil companies themselves;
Really? All those regulations and red tape that MUST be taken care of
before the first shovel even breaks the ground is the oil companies
fault?
> when asked,
> their executives flatout said they wouldn't build any new refineries
> because of the expenses in building and maintaining them; as far as
> they're concerned, the US is at capacity when it comes to refineries,
> and it shows if you look at their accident/malfunction rates (they are
> literally just *barely* keeping the current batch from falling apart)
> . . .
>
> Oh, and this *still* did not prevent the construction of the largest
> refinery in the Western Hemisphere on US soil in the last few years
> (yes, St. Croix is technically part of the US) . . .:
>
> <http://www.hovensa.com/>
>
>
>> They've declared U.S. oil sources off limits due to some negligible
>> impact on some fancy-named squirrel or some-such nonsense. They're the
>> reason gas prices have skyrocketed. Well, that and the speculators
>> buying futures that raise the price as well, after all, if some Sheik
>> doesn't get a "Lewinsky" from wife #7, the price shoots up a dime, or
>> was that if he stubs his toe on Louis XIV chair it goes up a dime...
>
> You get closer to reality towards the end . . . now, how about
> getting back to what matters here? That, of course, would be
> dog-piling on Mikey; with his "death of anime" delusions, and his
> assholishness getting him banned from convention after convention . . .
Well... unless you're buying your anime from next door where they sell
it, which is just across the street from where the discs are being
pressed, the price of gas will affect the anime industry somehow...
Bill Martin
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 22:26:26 -0400, "Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "Bill Martin" <bill_r...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:2008052815035175249-billrmartin@hotmailcom...
>>> On 2008-05-27 22:34:59 -0500, darkst...@gmail.com said:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Well, be sure to thank your Democratic Congress for the high gas prices.
>>> They've stood in the way of new refineries being built. They've declared
>>> U.S. oil sources off limits due to some negligible impact on some
>>> fancy-named squirrel or some-such nonsense. They're the reason gas prices
>>> have skyrocketed. Well, that and the speculators buying futures that
>>> raise the price as well, after all, if some Sheik doesn't get a "Lewinsky"
>>> from wife #7, the price shoots up a dime, or was that if he stubs his toe
>>> on Louis XIV chair it goes up a dime...
>>
>> See, Sanjian? It sucks when people on your side are embarassingly ignorant.
>
> And here I thought Bill was riffing off of Jian Ghomeshi's opening
> monologue from today's episode of "Q" - blame *everything* on rising gas
> prices!
Dude... I'm a few hours away from Ontario, KANSAS, not Canada. I've
never even heard of Ghomeshi.
> (On the off-chance you missed it, the episode should be on the CBC
> podcast site some time Thursday:
> <http://www.cbc.ca/podcasting/pastpodcasts.html#ref42> )
Antonio E. Gonzalez
<bill_r...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 2008-05-28 17:01:13 -0500, Antonio E. Gonzalez <AntE...@aol.com> said:
>
>> On Wed, 28 May 2008 15:03:51 -0500, Bill Martin
>> <bill_r...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2008-05-27 22:34:59 -0500, darkst...@gmail.com said:
>>>
>>>> I'll ask you the same question I asked two other people who said the
>>>> same thing: Where do you see gas prices in one year -- Memorial Day
>>>> 2009...
>>>>
>>>> I truly believe $5.50 to $6 is not out of the question -- and that's
>>>> going to squeeze potential conventions both ways. Higher costs to
>>>> bring in the guests (especially from Japan) and higher costs for the
>>>> attendees to come to attend.
>>>>
>>>> If you don't want to believe that, then fine. Ignore that $4.299 that
>>>> you see out there in Riverside, CA -- or that $5.039 you see for
>>>> diesel in Riverside, CA down at the Valero. Ignore all that -- sky
>>>> falling, sure . . .
>>>
>>> Well, be sure to thank your Democratic Congress for the high gas
>>> prices. They've stood in the way of new refineries being built.
>>
>> Uhhh, no, that would be the oil companies themselves;
>
>Really? All those regulations and red tape that MUST be taken care of
>before the first shovel even breaks the ground is the oil companies
>fault?
>
The regulations are irrelevant (as necessary as they are to having
breathable air, and drinkable water), even without them oil refineries
are a huge capital investment, and a bitch to keep running properly,
even with the government looking the other way. Neglecting them in
any way can have nasty repercusions; if you can find the documentary
Death on the Job you'll see one especially bad incident . . .
This, also, without the NIMBY factor; anybody who's lived in any
close proximity to a refinery will automatically tell you about the
overwhelming smell . . .
Oh, and all this still didn't prevent the massive Hovensa refinery
from being built in the US . . .
>> when asked,
>> their executives flatout said they wouldn't build any new refineries
>> because of the expenses in building and maintaining them; as far as
>> they're concerned, the US is at capacity when it comes to refineries,
>> and it shows if you look at their accident/malfunction rates (they are
>> literally just *barely* keeping the current batch from falling apart)
>> . . .
>>
>> Oh, and this *still* did not prevent the construction of the largest
>> refinery in the Western Hemisphere on US soil in the last few years
>> (yes, St. Croix is technically part of the US) . . .:
>>
>> <http://www.hovensa.com/>
>>
>>
>>> They've declared U.S. oil sources off limits due to some negligible
>>> impact on some fancy-named squirrel or some-such nonsense. They're the
>>> reason gas prices have skyrocketed. Well, that and the speculators
>>> buying futures that raise the price as well, after all, if some Sheik
>>> doesn't get a "Lewinsky" from wife #7, the price shoots up a dime, or
>>> was that if he stubs his toe on Louis XIV chair it goes up a dime...
>>
>> You get closer to reality towards the end . . . now, how about
>> getting back to what matters here? That, of course, would be
>> dog-piling on Mikey; with his "death of anime" delusions, and his
>> assholishness getting him banned from convention after convention . . .
>
>Well... unless you're buying your anime from next door where they sell
>it, which is just across the street from where the discs are being
>pressed, the price of gas will affect the anime industry somehow...
They're called downloads; iTunes will sell it's 3 billionth (or was
it 4 billionth) song sometime this year; video content for PC's, X-Box
360, PS3, and even DirecTV (and the like) are becoming the norm.
Nevermind cars, we're reaching the point where leaving our homes *at
all* will become irrelevant!
Aje RavenStar
"Antonio E. Gonzalez" <AntE...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:5706441qjhcefo1kp...@4ax.com...
Or just read some of the history of the refineries along the Texas Gulf
Coast from Texas City to Baytown.
I can't help but laugh (and I've said this since well BEFORE September 2001)
when there's talk about spending money to improve security along the port or
refinery areas here. No terrorist is going to waste money trying to pull an
attack on it. With the mostly self-regulation and self-inspection
privileges the facilities here enjoy, if somebody wants something along it
to blow up, all they have to do is wait.
Rob Kelk
<bill_r...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 2008-05-28 21:44:03 -0500, rob...@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk) said:
>
>> On Wed, 28 May 2008 22:26:26 -0400, "Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Bill Martin" <bill_r...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:2008052815035175249-billrmartin@hotmailcom...
>>>> On 2008-05-27 22:34:59 -0500, darkst...@gmail.com said:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Well, be sure to thank your Democratic Congress for the high gas prices.
>>>> They've stood in the way of new refineries being built. They've declared
>>>> U.S. oil sources off limits due to some negligible impact on some
>>>> fancy-named squirrel or some-such nonsense. They're the reason gas prices
>>>> have skyrocketed. Well, that and the speculators buying futures that
>>>> raise the price as well, after all, if some Sheik doesn't get a "Lewinsky"
>>>> from wife #7, the price shoots up a dime, or was that if he stubs his toe
>>>> on Louis XIV chair it goes up a dime...
>>>
>>> See, Sanjian? It sucks when people on your side are embarassingly ignorant.
>>
>> And here I thought Bill was riffing off of Jian Ghomeshi's opening
>> monologue from today's episode of "Q" - blame *everything* on rising gas
>> prices!
>
>Dude... I'm a few hours away from Ontario, KANSAS, not Canada. I've
>never even heard of Ghomeshi.
What, you've never heard of his rock group, Moxy Früvous?
(I'm now expecting somebody to post asking "Who?")
"Q" is on Sirius 137, weekdays at 12:00-13:30 Eastern (repeated weekdays
02:00-03:30 Eastern).
Since we've gone off-topic, followups set to "poster". Mind the
spamblock...
>> (On the off-chance you missed it, the episode should be on the CBC
>> podcast site some time Thursday:
>> <http://www.cbc.ca/podcasting/pastpodcasts.html#ref42> )
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
Abraham Evangelista
Philadelphia has the Sunoco refinery right along side a bridge and a
major highway. We've had fires on more than one occasion, some with
spectacular results.
When they burn up, I'm torn between the sense that I'm going to be
feeling it in my wallet in short order, or wishing ithe whole refinery
would go up, and just go away.
In the end, I settled for closing the vents and holding my breath for
the 30 seconds it took to drive by. :-)
--
Abraham Evangelista
darkst...@gmail.com
> > Uhhh, no, that would be the oil companies themselves;
>
> Really? All those regulations and red tape that MUST be taken care of
> before the first shovel even breaks the ground is the oil companies
> fault?
Well, the thing is that the oil companies do gouge, but the government
allows (and, in fact, encourages) it.
> > You get closer to reality towards the end . . . now, how about
> > getting back to what matters here? That, of course, would be
> > dog-piling on Mikey; with his "death of anime" delusions, and his
> > assholishness getting him banned from convention after convention . . .
>
> Well... unless you're buying your anime from next door where they sell
> it, which is just across the street from where the discs are being
> pressed, the price of gas will affect the anime industry somehow...
But, you see, that doesn't matter to people like that -- all they care
about is "dog-piling on Mikey", truth be damned.
You see, they want people to understand that if the majority of the
people lie long enough, it MUST BE TRUE!!
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> They're called downloads; iTunes will sell it's 3 billionth (or was
> it 4 billionth) song sometime this year; video content for PC's, X-Box
> 360, PS3, and even DirecTV (and the like) are becoming the norm.
> Nevermind cars, we're reaching the point where leaving our homes *at
> all* will become irrelevant!- Hide quoted text -
That is, if you can afford the Internet, at that point. But, yes, you
are right.
It may also be damn near implausible too.
Mike
sanjian
>> Uhhh, no, that would be the oil companies themselves;
>
> Really? All those regulations and red tape that MUST be taken care of
> before the first shovel even breaks the ground is the oil companies fault?
Bill, I agree with you. But it might be best to leave this discussion for
another venue.
Invid Fan
<nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
> Antonio E Gonzalez wrote on [Sun, 01 Jun 2008 13:19:02 -0700]:
> >
> > They're called downloads; iTunes will sell it's 3 billionth (or was
> > it 4 billionth) song sometime this year; video content for PC's, X-Box
> > 360, PS3, and even DirecTV (and the like) are becoming the norm.
> > Nevermind cars, we're reaching the point where leaving our homes *at
> > all* will become irrelevant!
>
> You're still living in a fantasy land.
There's a Fantasy Island not far from here. Didn't know he was a local