Great. Now I feel old...
Arnold Kim
Yeesh.
- No, wait, I just saw a forum where someone said LOVE HINA is old school.
NOW I feel old...
Arnold Kim
Derek Janssen
To a current generation, "Old-school" is anything they're not watching
on Cartoon Network *right now*, and have to go through the bother of
renting on disk...
(I'm still watching GE999 fansubs. Tell me about Old Schools, kiddies.
9_9 )
Derek Janssen (it helps to have *graduated* one, first)
eja...@verizon.net
Dave Watson
> Arnold Kim wrote:
> > Just came across a forum where someone called Cowboy Bebop "old school".
> > Yeesh.
>
> > - No, wait, I just saw a forum where someone said LOVE HINA is old
> > school. NOW I feel old...
>
> To a current generation, "Old-school" is anything they're not watching
> on Cartoon Network *right now*, and have to go through the bother of
> renting on disk...
>
> (I'm still watching GE999 fansubs. Tell me about Old Schools, kiddies.
> 9_9 )
Bebop and Hina old school? Fuck me. That ranks up there with
nostalgia for the 90's. I swear...(and curse, and spit, and rant...)
> Derek Janssen (it helps to have *graduated* one, first)
Agreed. Nothing helps you get over thinking you know everything than
running across people who know much more than you.
Watson.
Chris Sobieniak
> On Feb 14, 3:33 pm, Derek Janssen <ejan...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Arnold Kim wrote:
> > > Just came across a forum where someone called Cowboy Bebop "old school".
> > > Yeesh.
>
> > > - No, wait, I just saw a forum where someone said LOVE HINA is old
> > > school. NOW I feel old...
>
> > To a current generation, "Old-school" is anything they're not watching
> > on Cartoon Network *right now*, and have to go through the bother of
> > renting on disk...
Well that's a pretty lame logic right there (and to think, the whole
anime thing started from people who went out of their way to get it at
all).
> > (I'm still watching GE999 fansubs. Tell me about Old Schools, kiddies.
> > 9_9 )
Thanks for putting us in our place!
> Bebop and Hina old school? Fuck me. That ranks up there with
> nostalgia for the 90's. I swear...(and curse, and spit, and rant...)
>
> > Derek Janssen (it helps to have *graduated* one, first)
> > ejan...@verizon.net
>
> Agreed. Nothing helps you get over thinking you know everything than
> running across people who know much more than you.
>
> Watson.
Most guys I know around here don't seem to be any brighter than me, so
I have no need to worry about that!
Gilles Poitras
"If it's in color it's not old school."
Got this def from an Anime World Order podcast.
--
Gilles Poitras
Profession: Librarian Obsession: Anime
http://www.koyagi.com
http://gillespoitras.blogspot.com/
dhstr...@hotmail.com
Sadly, I still consider those "new anime". *sniff*
Derek Janssen
> I prefer an objective definition of old school.
>
> "If it's in color it's not old school."
>
> Got this def from an Anime World Order podcast.
Before Kodocha, the rule was "If no one complains about the dub, it's
not Old School."
So the definition had to be clarified to "If it came out after Ranma
1/2, it's not Old School." :)
Derek Janssen (if you own it raw on VHS, it *IS*)
eja...@verizon.net
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
dhstr...@hotmail.com
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> dhstran...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Feb 14, 3:17 pm, "Arnold Kim" <arnold...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >> Just came across a forum where someone called Cowboy Bebop "old school".
> >> Yeesh.
>
> >> - No, wait, I just saw a forum where someone said LOVE HINA is old school.
> >> NOW I feel old...
>
> >> Arnold Kim
>
> > Sadly, I still consider those "new anime". *sniff*
>
> I consider Escaflowne "new anime".
Even though I got into anime around the time of Tenchi, I don't
consider it "old school". That's reserved for things like MSG, Speed
Racer, Astroboy, Robotech, and etc.
Farix
Mehdi Tibouchi
>>> Just came across a forum where someone called Cowboy Bebop "old school".
>>> Yeesh.
>>>
>>> - No, wait, I just saw a forum where someone said LOVE HINA is old school.
>>> NOW I feel old...
>>>
>>> Arnold Kim
>>
>> Sadly, I still consider those "new anime". *sniff*
>
> I consider Escaflowne "new anime".
I consider Love Hina or FLCL "old school". Perhaps even Azumanga Daioh,
although it's closer to the turning point (some earlier shows like Sister
Princess belong to what I would argue is "new anime", though most started
in 2003 and later).
The Relic
Eh, you young whippersnappers, I remember back in the day when I
watched Speed Racer and the like, and I watched it on a black
and white console television back in the late 60s/early 70s...
and I was GLAD to have it! Now git offa mah lawn! ^_^
(seriously, no bright colors, just several shades of grey...hurm ^_<).
Derek Janssen
> Ryk E. Spoor wrote in message <gn7ndn$vqv$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
>
>>>>Just came across a forum where someone called Cowboy Bebop "old school".
>>>>Yeesh.
>>>>
>>>>- No, wait, I just saw a forum where someone said LOVE HINA is old school.
>>>>NOW I feel old...
>>>>
>>>>Arnold Kim
>>>
>>>Sadly, I still consider those "new anime". *sniff*
>>
>> I consider Escaflowne "new anime".
>
>
> I consider Love Hina or FLCL "old school". Perhaps even Azumanga Daioh,
0_0''
What...
....REMOTELY...
about AzD...
...makes you consider it "Old School", even coming from someone who'd be
conciliatory enough to consider UY "Old School"?
Derek Janssen (no, seriously, that's a real question!)
eja...@verizon.net
AstroNerdBoy
> Ryk E. Spoor wrote in message <gn7ndn$vq...@news.motzarella.org>:
To me, "old school" is 80's and earlier. Kinda like the rap music
from back then used to be exclusively known as "old school." However
today, I hear DJ's talking about "old school" and it is something 10-
years old. *_*
Still, now that I think of it, in the 90's, my 80's rap music was
called "old school" (now it is just mostly forgotten) so maybe this
isn't some shift in terminology but in fact we are all getting older.
Warewolf
news:4c598928-0fd2-4254...@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
Should it matter as long as it's *good* anime?
Tastes vary with the individual, after all.
Signed,
Warewolf
who is a chocolate lover and proud of it.
(and not *that* kind of chocolate)
http://killfrog.com/games/36-games/105-how-to-make-a-chocolate-easter-
bunny.html
Hand-of-Omega
*Shows*".
So, it's actually possible to have a "new series" (as in, just
recently came out) still be "old school" (as in, stylistically).
I might agree with Love Hina being Old School (Harem Comedies are SO
90s! ^_~), but it's definitely an older show. NOTHING about Cowboy
Bebop is really Old School, tho (except maybe some of Spike's
character design)...
Dex
Arnold Kim
"AstroNerdBoy" <astron...@astronerdboy.com> wrote in message
news:e21ab789-f44c-4e9f...@s1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 14, 5:50 pm, Mehdi Tibouchi <med...@alussinan.org> wrote:
> To me, "old school" is 80's and earlier. Kinda like the rap music
> from back then used to be exclusively known as "old school." However
> today, I hear DJ's talking about "old school" and it is something 10-
> years old. *_*
>
I think that's a fair demarcation point; in fact I might even stretch it
into the early 90s. But there's no way in hell that anything from the mid
90s is "old school" to me. (Evangelion and Gundam Wing, "old school"? NO.)
> Still, now that I think of it, in the 90's, my 80's rap music was
> called "old school" (now it is just mostly forgotten) so maybe this
> isn't some shift in terminology but in fact we are all getting older.
I don't think I ever considered 80s anime to be "old" when I started out in
fandom in the 90s. Though perhaps a lot of that has to do with the fact
that the anime inudstry in the US wasn't what it is today and many of the
"new" titles in America were titles from the 80s.
Arnold Kim
Aje RavenStar
"The Relic" <reli...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:ZqKll.5303$%54....@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
eh, you had it easy. I only got to Speed and Astro Boy when we visited my
Grandpa with the Curtis Mathis console and top notch antenna on the roof.
Providing it was a good weather day, since it was on channel 39, one of the
early UHF channels and low power signal. I can say, though, that I saw it
in several dozen shades of grey, due to that signal quality (epecially after
G'pa upgraded to color console in late 60's).
The Relic
I think the first time I actually saw a color TV was when I was visiting
my aunt and uncle back around 1971 (I was 9) in Kentucky. My eyes were
blinded by the purty colors (of course, we got our own color console TV
in '75) ^_^.
Chris Sobieniak
> "The Relic" <relic1...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
Still, give yourself a pat on the back, you deserve it! I only wish I
could be there when stuff like that on was the air outside my hometown
I would have to tune in to watch on a snowy UHF channel out of Detroit.
Aje RavenStar
"Chris Sobieniak" <Sobi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1d4d5fac-9a14-4caf...@f18g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
Heh - giving myself a pat on the back at my age is asking for a dislocated
shoulder or worse.
Astrobiochemist
The Love Hina anime first aired in Japan on April 19, 2000. No
freaking way is that old school.
Astrobiochemist
Geez, that is depressing. Bebop is '98 and Love Hina is '00. How can
that be old school?
I like to think that the mid-90's are firmly "new school." Escaflowne
(1996), Evangelion (1995) and Nadesico (1996) are all shows that from
the "next generation" of anime, as they are influenced by the "old
school" of anime, like Getter Robo (1975) and Space Battleship Yamato
(1974).
sanjian
And what about the current crop of anime? They are quite a bit different
than Escaflowne et al. Face it, what we think of as recent is already
vintage. That's the thing about history... it keeps accumulating.
B Sellers
Now you know how I feel all the time. 8^) <- note new spectacles!
But they just reveal their limitations of experience when they
make such remarks.
Old school has to be AstroBoy in monochome and a few other
shows. But the old school started kicking in the 1980s imnso. I say
that because my favorite shows are from that period.
later
bliss -- Cacao Powered... (at sfo dot com)
--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco
"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of cacao that the thoughts acquire speed,
the thighs acquire girth, the girth become a warning.
It is by theobromine alone I set my mind in motion."
--from Someone else's Dune spoof ripped to my taste.
Derek Janssen
>
> Geez, that is depressing. Bebop is '98 and Love Hina is '00. How can
> that be old school?
>
> I like to think that the mid-90's are firmly "new school." Escaflowne
> (1996), Evangelion (1995) and Nadesico (1996) are all shows that from
> the "next generation" of anime, as they are influenced by the "old
> school" of anime, like Getter Robo (1975) and Space Battleship Yamato
> (1974).
Nadesico is New School (or Second-year Class, anyway.)
Gekiganger 3 is Old School. ^_^
(Or to put it another way:
Anyone who's seen Space Detective 556 on Sgt. Frog knows the difference
between New School and Old School:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvX0bRfhGB4 )
Derek Janssen (...HAHAHAHAHA!! :-D )
eja...@verizon.net
Rob Kelk
Oh, dear...
All of those titles are younger than Neon Genesis Evangelion, which I
consider to be the first of the New School.
(My definition: New School relies on special effects to cover up the
plot holes.)
We really should put together a list of seminal anime (which are not
necessarily good anime, mind you), so that the folks who think something
less than a decade old is "old school" can get a sense of perspective.
Besides Evangelion, what should be on the list of seminal anime?
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
Derek Janssen
>
> We really should put together a list of seminal anime (which are not
> necessarily good anime, mind you), so that the folks who think something
> less than a decade old is "old school" can get a sense of perspective.
> Besides Evangelion, what should be on the list of seminal anime?
- Macross: Old School Mech, united the Mech Robot and Space Fleet Saga
on a grand scale;
- Urusei Yatsura: Without the first and most focused Magical Houseguest
Comedy, the Harem genre would have no roots (after all, it was Ataru
Moroboshi who even *named* the Harem genre);
- Sailor Moon: Took Transforming Magical Girls out of Minky Momo's
preschool pink-heart kindergarten and into a progressively older
demographic;
- Captain Harlock and
- Galaxy Express 999: Harlock may be the lynchpin around which all the
Leiji Matsumoto-verses revolve, but it's Maeter and the Express that
iconographs the Old School;
- Dragon Ball [Classic]: Remember back when it was *just* a silly
Monkey King parody for kiddie-winkies?
Derek Janssen (and Evangelion contributed...*WHAT*, exactly, besides
bringing Pretentiousness to the genre, and a lot of constipated
screaming-blue-murder?)
eja...@verizon.net
Arnold Kim
Certainly Mobile Suit Gundam , and even prior to that, Great Mazinger.
Macross was such a phenomenon in Japan (even to this day with Macross
Frontier) that it can't be ignored.
And though I haven't seen it myself, Ashita no Joe is considered in Japan to
be among the most influential anime and manga series of all time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashita_No_Joe#Influence
Arnold Kim
Blade
"Rob Kelk" <rob...@deadspam.com> wrote in message
news:4998899...@news.individual.net...
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 01:50:39 +0100, Mehdi Tibouchi
> <med...@alussinan.org> wrote:
>>Ryk E. Spoor wrote in message <gn7ndn$vqv$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
>>>>> Just came across a forum where someone called Cowboy Bebop "old
>>>>> school".
>>>>> Yeesh.
>>>>>
>>>>> - No, wait, I just saw a forum where someone said LOVE HINA is old
>>>>> school.
>>>>> NOW I feel old...
>>>>>
>>>>> Arnold Kim
>>>>
>>>> Sadly, I still consider those "new anime". *sniff*
>>>
>>> I consider Escaflowne "new anime".
>>
>>I consider Love Hina or FLCL "old school". Perhaps even Azumanga Daioh,
>>although it's closer to the turning point (some earlier shows like Sister
>>Princess belong to what I would argue is "new anime", though most started
>>in 2003 and later).
>
> Oh, dear...
>
> All of those titles are younger than Neon Genesis Evangelion, which I
> consider to be the first of the New School.
>
> (My definition: New School relies on special effects to cover up the
> plot holes.)
(coughcoughGunbustercoughMacrosscough)
> We really should put together a list of seminal anime (which are not
> necessarily good anime, mind you), so that the folks who think something
> less than a decade old is "old school" can get a sense of perspective.
> Besides Evangelion, what should be on the list of seminal anime?
Macross, original Gundam, Sailor Moon, Nausicaa, Dragonball Z, Astroboy, and
maybe Tenchi. There ought to be another shoujo show in there, but I'm not
sure what (maybe Rose of Versailles?) would be a good seminal example.
-
Blade
Robert Sneddon
<rob...@deadspam.com> writes
>
>We really should put together a list of seminal anime
You don't get more old-school seminal anime than RU Sick and Dodgy
(original title Urotsuki Doji), emphasis on the seminal...
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
Rob Kelk
wrote:
>
>
>"Rob Kelk" <rob...@deadspam.com> wrote in message
>news:4998899...@news.individual.net...
>> On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 01:50:39 +0100, Mehdi Tibouchi
>> <med...@alussinan.org> wrote:
>>>Ryk E. Spoor wrote in message <gn7ndn$vqv$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
>>>>>> Just came across a forum where someone called Cowboy Bebop "old
>>>>>> school".
>>>>>> Yeesh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - No, wait, I just saw a forum where someone said LOVE HINA is old
>>>>>> school.
>>>>>> NOW I feel old...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arnold Kim
>>>>>
>>>>> Sadly, I still consider those "new anime". *sniff*
>>>>
>>>> I consider Escaflowne "new anime".
>>>
>>>I consider Love Hina or FLCL "old school". Perhaps even Azumanga Daioh,
>>>although it's closer to the turning point (some earlier shows like Sister
>>>Princess belong to what I would argue is "new anime", though most started
>>>in 2003 and later).
>>
>> Oh, dear...
>>
>> All of those titles are younger than Neon Genesis Evangelion, which I
>> consider to be the first of the New School.
>>
>> (My definition: New School relies on special effects to cover up the
>> plot holes.)
>
>(coughcoughGunbustercoughMacrosscough)
What, they covered up their plot holes?
>> We really should put together a list of seminal anime (which are not
>> necessarily good anime, mind you), so that the folks who think something
>> less than a decade old is "old school" can get a sense of perspective.
>> Besides Evangelion, what should be on the list of seminal anime?
>
>Macross, original Gundam, Sailor Moon, Nausicaa, Dragonball Z, Astroboy, and
>maybe Tenchi. There ought to be another shoujo show in there, but I'm not
>sure what (maybe Rose of Versailles?) would be a good seminal example.
And a sports anime, too. "Star of the Giants" gets referenced in a lot
of other anime...
Rob Kelk
<fr...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <4998899...@news.individual.net>, Rob Kelk
><rob...@deadspam.com> writes
>
>>
>>We really should put together a list of seminal anime
>
> You don't get more old-school seminal anime than RU Sick and Dodgy
>(original title Urotsuki Doji), emphasis on the seminal...
In both meanings of the word, yeah...
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"Now I know why they call 'em lemons. They leave a sour taste in my
mouth." - from "Anime Detective: Crossover Crisis", by Pearson Mui
Rob Kelk
The idea that giant mecha anime could have a plot that didn't revolve
around the giant mecha... I think.
Derek Janssen
>>
>>- Macross: Old School Mech, united the Mech Robot and Space Fleet Saga
>>on a grand scale;
>>
>>bringing Pretentiousness to the genre, and a lot of constipated
>>screaming-blue-murder?)
>
> around the giant mecha... I think.
That was already covered in Macross--
No one in Eva beat the enemy by singing idol hits. ;)
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Arnold Kim
"Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ue1ml.624$hm...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Also don't forget gangly looking mecha designs that were more about being
artsy fartsy than looking like functional military robots.
Arnold Kim
Robert Sneddon
<rob...@deadspam.com> writes
>On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 21:57:50 GMT, Derek Janssen
><eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>Derek Janssen (and Evangelion contributed...*WHAT*, exactly, besides
>>bringing Pretentiousness to the genre, and a lot of constipated
>>screaming-blue-murder?)
>>eja...@verizon.net
>
>The idea that giant mecha anime could have a plot that didn't revolve
>around the giant mecha... I think.
I thought Patlabor came up with that idea first, didn't it?
Chris Mattern
<snip>
>
> Derek Janssen (and Evangelion contributed...*WHAT*, exactly, besides
> bringing Pretentiousness to the genre, and a lot of constipated
> screaming-blue-murder?)
> eja...@verizon.net
If nothing else, it was the first giant mecha anime to face the fact that
putting 14-year-old kids in combat situations is almost guaranteed to
result in massive mental trauma to said kids.
--
Christopher Mattern
NOTICE
Thank you for noticing this new notice
Your noticing it has been noted
And will be reported to the authorities
Blade
"Arnold Kim" <arno...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4998a32a$0$20302$607e...@cv.net...
By definition, all mecha are more about being artsy-fartsy than looking like
functional military robots. Mecha are an inherently ludicrous concept that
make about as much military sense as chainmail bikinis.
To answer Derek about what Evangelion contributed... oh, I don't know, how
about vastly influencing the tone and style of every single mecha show (and
a considerable number of non-mecha shows) that followed it? Pretty much
every non-Gundam mecha anime that followed Evangelion directly copies from,
deconstructs, or conspicuously rejects its tone, style and ideas. It's also
ludicrously popular such that merchandise of it still flies off the shelves
and actual university courses were taught about it.
I don't really care for Evangelion, but questioning its massive importance
to anime in general and mecha anime in particular is just silly. More
indirectly, it's the only reason Gainax still exists, and they've done a lot
of influential stuff since too.
-
Blade
(And all this despite the fact the Evas weren't actually mecha. OH NOES
SPOILERZ.)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
No, that was Mobile Suit Gundam, which was basically the core plot that
Eva used and then messed around with. The plot of MSG used the Gundam as
a significant plot device (just like the EVA units) but focused on the
interpersonal conflicts and political motivations as the main story.
Eva did NOTHING original.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
sanjian
>> I consider Love Hina or FLCL "old school". Perhaps even Azumanga
>> Daioh, although it's closer to the turning point (some earlier shows
>> like Sister Princess belong to what I would argue is "new anime",
>> though most started in 2003 and later).
>
> Oh, dear...
>
> All of those titles are younger than Neon Genesis Evangelion, which I
> consider to be the first of the New School.
>
> (My definition: New School relies on special effects to cover up the
> plot holes.)
Whereas old-school left them uncovered for Dr. Tofu to fall into?
Arnold Kim
> "Arnold Kim" <arno...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:4998a32a$0$20302$607e...@cv.net...
>>
>> "Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:ue1ml.624$hm...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>>> Rob Kelk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Macross: Old School Mech, united the Mech Robot and Space Fleet
>>>>> Saga on a grand scale;
>>>>>
>>>>> (and Evangelion contributed...*WHAT*, exactly, besides bringing
>>>>> Pretentiousness to the genre, and a lot of constipated
>>>>> screaming-blue-murder?)
>>>>
>>>> The idea that giant mecha anime could have a plot that didn't
>>>> revolve around the giant mecha... I think.
>>>
>>> That was already covered in Macross--
>>> No one in Eva beat the enemy by singing idol hits. ;)
>>
>> Also don't forget gangly looking mecha designs that were more about
>> being artsy fartsy than looking like functional military robots.
>
> By definition, all mecha are more about being artsy-fartsy than
> looking like functional military robots. Mecha are an inherently
> ludicrous concept that make about as much military sense as chainmail
> bikinis.
You know what I mean. Look at the designs of something like Macross or
Patlabor and compare it to something like, say, Brain Powerd. The "military
vehicle" look versus the "weird and gangly" look.
Arnold Kim
Rob Kelk
Pretty much, yeah...
makku
Farix
> Blade
> (And all this despite the fact the Evas weren't actually mecha. OH NOES
> SPOILERZ.)
I don't think there is such a thing as Eva spoilers any more. Either
you've seen it, or you haven't and just don't care.
D B Malmquist
>
> Personally, I draw a distinction between "New/Old School" and "New/Old
> *Shows*".
>
> So, it's actually possible to have a "new series" (as in, just
> recently came out) still be "old school" (as in, stylistically).
>
> I might agree with Love Hina being Old School (Harem Comedies are SO
> 90s! ^_~),
Harem shows are making a comeback, actually. " Asu no Yoichi", maybe
"Regios", "A Certain Magical Index", "Kemeko DX", "Macademi Wasshoi"
and "Kanokon" are all recent harem anime.
Definitions:
1. Harem show. A show with one guy and many girls, where the girls
all have powerful personalities and are trying to dominate the male
lead.
2. Bishoujo show. A show with one guy and many girls, where the girls
all have needy personalities and are looking to be saved or helped
by the male lead. (These shows traditionally come from games,
and usually attempt to unwrap the multiple storylines in the game into
a single linear storyline. So, the story moves from girl to girl; each
one gets "saved" and then it's on to the next.)
-dbm
> but it's definitely an older show. NOTHING about Cowboy
> Bebop is really Old School, tho (except maybe some of Spike's
> character design)...
>
> Dex
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
>> but it's definitely an older show. NOTHING about Cowboy
>> Bebop is really Old School, tho
Rgh. The basic core of CB, at least until the end (which I've been told
about but haven't watched) is "Hard-luck guys never quite making the Big
Score" -- they do their jobs and ALMOST break even, etc. This isn't just
old school, it's Fraggin' Ancient History. They add some "dark
mysterious background" and "accumulating traveling companions", but even
that's pretty damn cobwebby. Hell, CB wasn't even meant to be a space
show at first, and it shows.
Tsunami
Mon, 16 Feb 2009 13:54:08 -0800 (PST), Farix <dhstr...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
You can't spoil Eva, Gainax did that! :)
--
Tsunami
If at first you don't succeed, give up skydiving!
tsu...@nospam.jyurai.co.uk
dot_wa...@hotmail.com
> Yeesh.
>
> - No, wait, I just saw a forum where someone said LOVE HINA is old school.
> NOW I feel old...
>
> Arnold Kim
Get in line. I had that moment when I realized I was old enough to be
Shinji's mother.
I blame my buddies, who had gotten in the habit of calling me "Akagi
Hakase", so I started wondering: "Hey, how old WOULD I be in 2015?"
-"Dot", born in 1979
Captain Nerd
<5e98ad14-b5da-43a4...@g38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
"dot_wa...@hotmail.com" <dot_wa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Just wait until you're older than the President of the U.S.
Cap
(born 1958)
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
The Relic
> In article
> <5e98ad14-b5da-43a4...@g38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
> "dot_wa...@hotmail.com" <dot_wa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 14, 3:17 pm, "Arnold Kim" <arnold...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>> Just came across a forum where someone called Cowboy Bebop "old school".
>>> Yeesh.
>>>
>>> - No, wait, I just saw a forum where someone said LOVE HINA is old school.
>>> NOW I feel old...
>>>
>>> Arnold Kim
>> Get in line. I had that moment when I realized I was old enough to be
>> Shinji's mother.
>>
>> I blame my buddies, who had gotten in the habit of calling me "Akagi
>> Hakase", so I started wondering: "Hey, how old WOULD I be in 2015?"
>>
>> -"Dot", born in 1979
>
> Just wait until you're older than the President of the U.S.
>
> Cap
> (born 1958)
>
I am already close to it (born 1962) ^_^...
D B Malmquist
>
> D B Malmquist wrote:
>
> >> but it's definitely an older show. NOTHING about Cowboy
> >> Bebop is really Old School, tho
>
> Rgh. The basic core of CB, at least until the end (which I've been told
<<snip>>
Hand-of-Omega wrote that.
-dbm
D B Malmquist
>
> Just came across a forum where someone called Cowboy Bebop "old school".
> Yeesh.
>
> - No, wait, I just saw a forum where someone said LOVE HINA is old school.
> NOW I feel old...
Well, it depends upon how you define "Old School", of course.
One perfectly valid definition would be based on technology
rather than style: "Old School" anime were created on cels,
while "New School" anime are created using digital ink & paint.
There's a clear difference in appearance between the two, with
the onces created on cels (including Bebop) having a different,
more primitive (some say warmer) visual "feel" than more recent
stuff.
That puts the Old School / New School division somewhere between
1998 and 2002, right?
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-08-29/sazae-san-is-last-tv-anime-using-cels-not-computers
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2002-01-01/16
http://www.ex.org/4.2/09-column_bts1.html
http://www.ex.org/4.3/04-feature_digital1.html
(In its early days Gonzo was pretty innovative in how it pushed
forward the craft of 2d animation in Japan. Wasn't "Blue Sub #6"
one of the first all-2d-digital anime productions?)
I don't think celluloid is even manufactured any more.
http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/interviews/suzuki_interview.html
-dbm
Giovanni Wassen
> -"Dot", born in 1979
Heh, you are a youngster.
--
Gio, 1978
http://www.watkijkikoptv.info
http://myanimelist.net/profile/extatix
http://watkijkikoptv.info/animeblog
sanjian
I wasn't feeling old until you wrote that last line. *glares*
Captain Nerd
"sanjian" <mun...@vt.edu> wrote:
Yeah, these kids today, no respect for their eld......
Wait a minute.
Cap.
Captain Nerd
The Relic <reli...@ameritech.net> wrote:
Waitaminute, if you're The Relic, and I'm older... than... you...
*Sob*
Cap.
Blade
"Arnold Kim" <arno...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4999690c$0$13281$607e...@cv.net...
> Blade wrote:
>>> Also don't forget gangly looking mecha designs that were more about
>>> being artsy fartsy than looking like functional military robots.
>>
>> By definition, all mecha are more about being artsy-fartsy than
>> looking like functional military robots. Mecha are an inherently
>> ludicrous concept that make about as much military sense as chainmail
>> bikinis.
>
> You know what I mean. Look at the designs of something like Macross or
> Patlabor and compare it to something like, say, Brain Powerd. The
> "military vehicle" look versus the "weird and gangly" look.
I know what you mean. I just disagree with your premise. Why should mecha
look like boxy World War II era technology? Much modern military technology
doesn't. Many designs for UAVs look like delicate, flimsy, odd-shaped things
rather than "functional military robots". Ignoring that in Eva there was a
plot reason they looked the way they did, I can see no good objective reason
for mecha to look like Patlabors. There's no reason for them NOT to either,
but I don't see why it should be considered superior, or that weird designs
for what are basically stand-ins for armoured knights and samurai are bad
(often, the designs deliberately evoke demons or other supernatural
phenomena).
-
Blade
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
>
>
> "Arnold Kim" <arno...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:4999690c$0$13281$607e...@cv.net...
>> Blade wrote:
>>>> Also don't forget gangly looking mecha designs that were more about
>>>> being artsy fartsy than looking like functional military robots.
>>>
>>> By definition, all mecha are more about being artsy-fartsy than
>>> looking like functional military robots. Mecha are an inherently
>>> ludicrous concept that make about as much military sense as chainmail
>>> bikinis.
>>
>> You know what I mean. Look at the designs of something like Macross
>> or Patlabor and compare it to something like, say, Brain Powerd. The
>> "military vehicle" look versus the "weird and gangly" look.
>
> I know what you mean. I just disagree with your premise. Why should
> mecha look like boxy World War II era technology? Much modern military
> technology doesn't. Many designs for UAVs look like delicate, flimsy,
> odd-shaped things rather than "functional military robots".
Because UAVs are flying spy-eyes and sometimes weapon platforms, but
they have to desperately appease the SWaP gods in ways that a Giant
Robot does not even CONSIDER.
Now, your Giant Robot COULD be designed by Apple, so it would look
sleek and cool, and might even in some ways look kinda like an Eva, now
that I think of it.
Larry W. Virden
>
> To a current generation, "Old-school" is anything they're not watching
> on Cartoon Network *right now*, and have to go through the bother of
> renting on disk...
>
Perhaps "old school" is "anything whose last episode was produced more
than a year ago".
Tsunami
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
It is interesting that you mention Apple.
Somewhere in my collection of tankoubon I have a copy of an anime
called Dark whisper (I know, sounds like chocolate :) ) and the mecha
designs (in this case for undersea vehicles, but by the Japanese
definition, they are mecha) look like they could have come out of the
Apple design studio. I also believe that the Eva were designed by the
manga's artist, but I could be wrong.
The Relic
Then there cannot be only one! ^_^
Larry W. Virden
> In article <OWsml.17052$yr3.8...@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> The Relic <relic1...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> > I am already close to it (born 1962) ^_^...
>
> Waitaminute, if you're The Relic, and I'm older... than... you...
>
> *Sob*
>
> Cap.
>
Don't worry - there are those of us out here that are older than even
you, Cap. You are still a "youngun" to some...
When my eldest son left home, I took to calling him "young man" and of
course, taking after me, he referred to me as "old man" in our
conversations. That continues to this day, even though now I have
begun teasing him about becoming an "old man" himself.
So, to bring the topic back a bit to that of the newsgroup, who is
currently the oldest of the recognized masters of anime? Are there
those older than, say, Miyazaki?
Aje RavenStar
"Captain Nerd" <cpt...@nerdwatch.com> wrote in message
news:cptnerd-114478...@news.giganews.com...
Calm down, Cap. I'm still a few months ahead of you.
Antonio E. Gonzalez
Well, it *is* a Tomino show that EVA is primarily based on, almost
scene-for-scene in some cases, but it ain't MSG. Right down to two
movies to make up for an inconclusive ending . . .
> Eva did NOTHING original.
That can be argued, but let's say it's true: Germany didn't
invent beer, Argentina didn't invent the tango, Italy didn't invent
noodles, Japan didn't invent the VCR, yet they all took an existing
product, and refined it to near-perfection, or at least how we know it
now . . .
There's a lot EVA did that had been done before, many times as
pseudo-homages, but EVA did them in a way that reset the stage for
just about every anime to come; I dare say, the considerably darker
tones that Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z took towards their ends may
have been at least partly because of EVA influence . .
--
- ReFlex76
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Perfect beer is still hideous moose-piss. The tango I have no opinion
on. The VCR was perfected by becoming the DVD player; dunno if that was
Japan or us.
In the case of Eva, it perfected nothing, tried to do three or four
things and did all of them badly. Why it was so popular remains a mystery.
>
> There's a lot EVA did that had been done before, many times as
> pseudo-homages, but EVA did them in a way that reset the stage for
> just about every anime to come; I dare say, the considerably darker
> tones that Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z took towards their ends may
> have been at least partly because of EVA influence . .
Darker? I don't see Buu as darker than the Android/Cell arc. In fact,
it starts out silly and stupid to a nearly Dragon Ball level, which was
one of the biggest mistakes, and never really recovers from this.
Captain Nerd
<60635987-c588-4b7b...@13g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
"Larry W. Virden" <lvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 17, 8:40 am, Captain Nerd <cptn...@nerdwatch.com> wrote:
> > In article <OWsml.17052$yr3.8...@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> > The Relic <relic1...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > > I am already close to it (born 1962) ^_^...
> >
> > Waitaminute, if you're The Relic, and I'm older... than... you...
> >
> > *Sob*
> >
> > Cap.
> >
>
>
> Don't worry - there are those of us out here that are older than even
> you, Cap. You are still a "youngun" to some...
>
> When my eldest son left home, I took to calling him "young man" and of
> course, taking after me, he referred to me as "old man" in our
> conversations. That continues to this day, even though now I have
> begun teasing him about becoming an "old man" himself.
Well, I kind of worked out a rule of thumb ( I call it "Brannigan's
Law" ^__^ ) about ages: If someone is 20 years older than you,
they're "old", and if they're 20 years younger, they're "kids".
The rule doesn't kick in good until you're 30 though...
> So, to bring the topic back a bit to that of the newsgroup, who is
> currently the oldest of the recognized masters of anime? Are there
> those older than, say, Miyazaki?
Not sure if he'd be considered a "master" but didn't one of the
creators of "Doraemon" recently pass away? I think he was in his
80's if I'm remembering correctly. I think a lot of animators
in Japan were relatively obscure except for people like Tezuka
(who was hard to ignore) and so I don't know who would have
achieved any kind of recognized mastery status. Hopefully
someone with better memory will enlighten us.
Captain Nerd
"Aje RavenStar" <whine...@comcast.net> wrote:
I just attended Katsucon this weekend, and this strip is very apt:
<http://www.reallifecomics.com/archive/090216.html>
Aje RavenStar
That pretty much sums up how I felt at Oni-Con 2007, especially Saturday (I
was all right on Friday, when most of the younger set were in school).
Arnold Kim
My premise was never that it should look one way or the other- If I gave off
an implication of some kind of value judgement that one was better than the
other, that really was never my intention. I actually LIKE the Evangelion
designs. (I was trying to be cute with the phrase "artsy fartsy".:))
Arnold Kim
sanjian
>> That can be argued, but let's say it's true: Germany didn't
>> invent beer, Argentina didn't invent the tango, Italy didn't invent
>> noodles, Japan didn't invent the VCR, yet they all took an existing
>> product, and refined it to near-perfection, or at least how we know
>> it now . . .
>
> Perfect beer is still hideous moose-piss. The tango I have no opinion
God invented rum to save us from beer.
> on. The VCR was perfected by becoming the DVD player; dunno if that
> was Japan or us.
Philips, IIRC.
> In the case of Eva, it perfected nothing, tried to do three or four
> things and did all of them badly. Why it was so popular remains a
> mystery.
There are many people who have not developed past the "pretentious snobbery"
phase. Alas, I was just moving past my "teenage angst" phase when the Eva
fansubs came out, so it kind of missed its mark with me.
paranormalized
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Antonio E. Gonzalez wrote:
> > On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 21:49:36 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> > <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >> Eva did NOTHING original.
>
> > That can be argued, but let's say it's true: Germany didn't
> > invent beer, Argentina didn't invent the tango, Italy didn't invent
> > noodles, Japan didn't invent the VCR, yet they all took an existing
> > product, and refined it to near-perfection, or at least how we know it
> > now . . .
>
> Perfect beer is still hideous moose-piss. The tango I have no opinion
> on. The VCR was perfected by becoming the DVD player; dunno if that was
> Japan or us.
>
> In the case of Eva, it perfected nothing, tried to do three or four
> things and did all of them badly. Why it was so popular remains a mystery.
Question: How much of this is influenced by your opinion that stories
should end well? The only 'happy end' of Eva was a clunker, since
good therapy doesn't make good stories. And the 'End of Eva' was a
great big 'screw you' to fans of *any* of the characters...
If Eva made you care enough to get mad/depressed with its end, then it
succeeded by *its* metric, not yours. I'm not typically a fan of
excessive authorial self-indulgence, but Eva has its own perverse
perspective.
That said, I'm not a big fan of Eva. I never bought a single piece of
Eva merchandise or media. My cursory impression of Eva is that it
doesn't meld storytelling and Existential philosophizing/introspection
as well as a good Oshii feature, but it is pretty original in trying
the format in a Broadcast slot. Since then we've seen that meld done
*better* on Broadcast Television, (RahXephon, Zegapain), but Eva
pulled out the heavy guns of bizarre metaphor first, unless you can
think of anything as weird as the whole 'Sea of Dirac' episode taken
seriously before then...(young and neurotic dissolves into LCL and
eventually returns)
However, if you want to argue there is *nothing* original in
storytelling for the past half-millenium, then yes, there is nothing
original in Eva. But there is a lot of *work* put into it... except
for the plot, which evidently was secondary(tertiary?) to emotional
impacts and psuedo-Existentialism.
It's a muddle of storytelling, but a decent montage of emotional
moments/crisis... nothing spectacular, but not so horrible it needs to
be pulled down at every moment.
Jonathan Fisher
who never saw the last 12 eps subtitled or dubbed anyways, but maybe
it works just as well without comprehension...
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On Feb 17, 7:03 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> Antonio E. Gonzalez wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 21:49:36 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Eva did NOTHING original.
>>> That can be argued, but let's say it's true: Germany didn't
>>> invent beer, Argentina didn't invent the tango, Italy didn't invent
>>> noodles, Japan didn't invent the VCR, yet they all took an existing
>>> product, and refined it to near-perfection, or at least how we know it
>>> now . . .
>> Perfect beer is still hideous moose-piss. The tango I have no opinion
>> on. The VCR was perfected by becoming the DVD player; dunno if that was
>> Japan or us.
>>
>> In the case of Eva, it perfected nothing, tried to do three or four
>> things and did all of them badly. Why it was so popular remains a mystery.
>
> Question: How much of this is influenced by your opinion that stories
> should end well?
My personal dislike of it is certainly influenced by that. The first
ending I can interpret as potentially happy because of its blurriness,
at least.
My opinion that it failed at the things it was attempting is based on
my observation of what it was trying to do and what it SHOULD have done
if it actually wanted to accomplsh those things.
None of the apparent things it was trying to do included what,
apparently, was one of the core purposes, which was be Anno's public
therapy. And if that HAD been one of the apparent intentions I'd have
(and hopefully others would have) known immediately to bail on it before
even watching the first ep.
> If Eva made you care enough to get mad/depressed with its end, then it
> succeeded by *its* metric, not yours.
(A) Mine is the only one that matters when I discuss the success or
failure of something, since, well, *I* am the one discussing.
(B) It didn't make me care; it made me pissed off that I *wanted* to
care about what was going on, presenting me with stuff that COULD have
been really good, and failing badly to follow through. This was
especially disappointing as it was Gainax, from which I expected Great
Things, instead of the Eight Deadly Words.
chr...@balder.sabir.com
Yes, Eva certainly does bring out the pretentious snobs, doesn't it?
On both sides.
Face it, Eva is
1. one of the most popular animes out there
2. one that continually attracts new fans all the time - it's not just
a fad supported by "pretentious snobbery" (think Salman Rushdie, who has
definite appeal to a small population, but became a fad for many more)
3. One of the richest anime in terms of both internal linkage within
the story, and external linkage outside. Some of the links are
admittedly "cheap" (not fully fleshed out or integral), but that's
true of most art of this sort. The links provide lots of evidence
for arguments for both sides.
I first saw Eva a couple of years ago at age 50. I regard it as one
of my top anime. It wasn't "life-changing" by any means, but it was a
powerful story, very well done. It's an internally directed story -
that means it's not going to be liked by some people who can't
empathize with the characters to some extent. Internally directed
stories tend to be very hit-or-miss. Eva hit with me; it misses with
others, and all that is fine and should be expected - by both sides!
I've certainly seen "Eva snobs" who claim to understand non-fans, that
they don't appreciate Eva because they don't understand it. That's
balderdash. But to be honest, I see many more people who claim to
understand Eva fans, and say that the attraction of Eva is only
teenage "angst". Since they've matured past that phase, Eva is not
worthwhile. How is this not also "pretentious snobbery"?
Chris
Abraham Evangelista
>Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>>> That can be argued, but let's say it's true: Germany didn't
>>> invent beer, Argentina didn't invent the tango, Italy didn't invent
>>> noodles, Japan didn't invent the VCR, yet they all took an existing
>>> product, and refined it to near-perfection, or at least how we know
>>> it now . . .
>>
>> Perfect beer is still hideous moose-piss. The tango I have no opinion
>
>God invented rum to save us from beer.
>
>> on. The VCR was perfected by becoming the DVD player; dunno if that
>> was Japan or us.
>
>Philips, IIRC.
Pretty close. If you meant the VCR, it was JVC. (Which I guess would
make it Japan.) Nominally, the DVD was supported by Toshiba and
Matsushita(Panasonic) but IBM had at least as much to do with it as
they did.
>> In the case of Eva, it perfected nothing, tried to do three or four
>> things and did all of them badly. Why it was so popular remains a
>> mystery.
>
>There are many people who have not developed past the "pretentious snobbery"
>phase. Alas, I was just moving past my "teenage angst" phase when the Eva
>fansubs came out, so it kind of missed its mark with me.
Putting aside whether or not you liked it, would you agree with the
list that it's been massively influential?
--
Abraham Evangelista
sanjian
> On 2009-02-18, sanjian <mun...@vt.edu> wrote:
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>> In the case of Eva, it perfected nothing, tried to do three or four
>>> things and did all of them badly. Why it was so popular remains a
>>> mystery.
>>
>> There are many people who have not developed past the "pretentious
>> snobbery" phase. Alas, I was just moving past my "teenage angst"
>> phase when the Eva fansubs came out, so it kind of missed its mark
>> with me.
>
> Yes, Eva certainly does bring out the pretentious snobs, doesn't it?
> On both sides.
Oh, yay! We're going to be treated to cheesy equivocation. I can't wait!
> Face it, Eva is
> 1. one of the most popular animes out there
And? Are you saying that it must be good because it's popular?
> 2. one that continually attracts new fans all the time - it's not just
> a fad supported by "pretentious snobbery" (think Salman Rushdie,
> who has definite appeal to a small population, but became a fad for
> many more)
And? Are you saying that it must be good because it's popular?
> 3. One of the richest anime in terms of both internal linkage within
> the story, and external linkage outside. Some of the links are
> admittedly "cheap" (not fully fleshed out or integral), but that's
> true of most art of this sort. The links provide lots of evidence
> for arguments for both sides.
Ok, so it pretentiously name-drops. Oh, yeah! That's what makes a story
good!
Sorry, but your three supporting arguments are absurdities, at best. If you
want to argue on the merits of the story or characters, that's fine. But
you didn't even try to do so, here.
> I first saw Eva a couple of years ago at age 50. I regard it as one
> of my top anime. It wasn't "life-changing" by any means, but it was a
> powerful story, very well done. It's an internally directed story -
> that means it's not going to be liked by some people who can't
> empathize with the characters to some extent. Internally directed
> stories tend to be very hit-or-miss. Eva hit with me; it misses with
> others, and all that is fine and should be expected - by both sides!
Personal testamonty noted. However, you said nothing to make me think
there's actually anything TO the story, other than "I liked it, so that
should be enough."
> I've certainly seen "Eva snobs" who claim to understand non-fans, that
> they don't appreciate Eva because they don't understand it. That's
> balderdash. But to be honest, I see many more people who claim to
> understand Eva fans, and say that the attraction of Eva is only
> teenage "angst". Since they've matured past that phase, Eva is not
> worthwhile. How is this not also "pretentious snobbery"?
Easy. There's no pretense. I didn't say it wasn't snobbish.
chr...@balder.sabir.com
Sorry, Sea Wasp, I think you're off-base here and somewhat
self-contradictory.
I have no problems at all with you not liking Eva or thinking
it's boring and a failure. I've admired your stance throughout
the years on rasfw - Eva didn't work for you, so it's a failure
for you. But you've been doing a lot more in this thread -
you've been saying that in your opinion other people shouldn't
like it because it's poorly done and un-original. That's what
you've been objecting to other people doing over the years on
rasfw.
I can understand you not liking the fact that the ending
concentrated on the internal conflict within Shinji, rather than
the external conflict. But surely you agree the internal
conflict received at least equal billing in importance throughout
the series? Above, you seem to be advancing the argument that
Eva would have been objectively improved if there had been *more*
self-analysis and whining by Shinji earlier on. (You would have
dropped it sooner, but it would have been truer to its goals and
better, according to you.) That view seems somewhat ... unique
to you.
(For the record, I liked the internal conflict ending, but think
the external conflicts needed to be moved more towards climax in
the preceding couple of episodes before switching back to the
internal conflict).
If you as author were aiming at the internal conflict ending of
Eva, how would you have changed things? I'm not sure whether
anything should be done differently. I'm unaware of any other
anime that has developed parallel internal and external conflicts
in quite the way of Eva. There's plenty of anime like RahXephon
where the heroes have self-doubts, but for the most part the
doubts are caused by lack of self-knowledge, not damaged psyche.
Everybody in Eva is damaged goods, and these are the people who
must protect the world. And what other anime ends like Eva?
To put it in somewhat unfair language, it seems to me you're
saying that you didn't like Eva because it was unoriginal and you
didn't like or expect the ending partly because nobody had done
that in anime before.
Chris
Derek Janssen
> paranormalized wrote:
>
>> If Eva made you care enough to get mad/depressed with its end, then it
>> succeeded by *its* metric, not yours.
>
>
> (A) Mine is the only one that matters when I discuss the success or
> failure of something, since, well, *I* am the one discussing.
>
> (B) It didn't make me care; it made me pissed off that I *wanted* to
> care about what was going on, presenting me with stuff that COULD have
> been really good, and failing badly to follow through. This was
> especially disappointing as it was Gainax, from which I expected Great
> Things, instead of the Eight Deadly Words.
What, you mean "Why Am I Watching This?"--That's only five. ;)
Derek Janssen
eja...@vreizon.net
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Never.
>
> I have no problems at all with you not liking Eva or thinking
> it's boring and a failure. I've admired your stance throughout
> the years on rasfw - Eva didn't work for you, so it's a failure
> for you. But you've been doing a lot more in this thread -
> you've been saying that in your opinion other people shouldn't
> like it because it's poorly done and un-original.
You are welcome to show where I said "other people shouldn't like it".
I have never made such a statement. You may, of course, read into
statements such as "I have no idea how it ever became popular" or
similar, but even those aren't saying "other people shouldn't".
> I can understand you not liking the fact that the ending
> concentrated on the internal conflict within Shinji, rather than
> the external conflict. But surely you agree the internal
> conflict received at least equal billing in importance throughout
> the series? Above, you seem to be advancing the argument that
> Eva would have been objectively improved if there had been *more*
> self-analysis and whining by Shinji earlier on.
Not at all. It would have been improved if instead of attempting to do
a Serious Mecha/Alien Invasion overlaid on a Mecha Deconstruction
overlaid on a Psychological drama, they decided WHICH ONE THEY WANTED TO
DO and actually did that, instead of wasting time and energy on other
things.
I wouldn't have LIKED it if the choice was "watch Shinji degenerate
even farther down the evolutionary chain (not only losing any spine or
notochord he was born with, but also rejecting a central nervous
system), but at least it would've been a focus (and easier for me to
bail on right away).
> (You would have
> dropped it sooner, but it would have been truer to its goals and
> better, according to you.) That view seems somewhat ... unique
> to you.
The uniqueness of my view is not new to me.
>
> If you as author were aiming at the internal conflict ending of
> Eva, how would you have changed things?
No real idea, because I don't do ambiguity or "end as shit" endings. If
I was writing Evangelion, I'd have to first choose what kind of story I
was telling: a psychological story of Shinji VS Gendo and his plans, an
Alien/Angel Invasion, or a deconstruction of the Mecha And Kid Pilot
genre. What the ending would be would drastically differ between these
choices.
> To put it in somewhat unfair language, it seems to me you're
> saying that you didn't like Eva because it was unoriginal and you
> didn't like or expect the ending partly because nobody had done
> that in anime before.
Shitty endings have been seen in anime many times before, and outside
of it even more so. I didn't like the ending because it WASN'T an
ending, and if I tried to view it as an ending, it sucked.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
No, "I don't care WHAT happens to these people!"
Arnold Kim
I actually think the crowd is definitely getting younger, though. There of
course have been teenage anime fans for years (I was one of them), but I
don't remember most high school age fans having enough disposable income to
actually go to a con.
Arnold Kim
Arnold Kim
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 17:24:20 -0500, "Blade" <kumo...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> We really should put together a list of seminal anime (which are not
>>> necessarily good anime, mind you), so that the folks who think
>>> something less than a decade old is "old school" can get a sense of
>>> perspective. Besides Evangelion, what should be on the list of
>>> seminal anime?
>>
>> Astroboy, and maybe Tenchi. There ought to be another shoujo show in
>> there, but I'm not sure what (maybe Rose of Versailles?) would be a
>> good seminal example.
>
> And a sports anime, too. "Star of the Giants" gets referenced in a lot
> of other anime...
If you want to throw a sports anime in there, it has to be Ashita no Joe.
It's considered by many in Japan to be one of the most influential
anime/manga series ever, sports based or not. When one character in the
series died, a real-life funeral was held for him with a gathering of over
700 people.
Arnold Kim
The Relic
I recall reading somewhere that Takahashi Rumiko cited it as an
influence (in fact, she had a story in Urusei Yatsura (the one involving
the cat-woman) that parodied it (and in the anime, an even more direct
parody was done).
Project A-ko (wasn't the first one, I think it was the 3rd one) did
a parody of the death scene from Ashita no Joe.
The Relic
When I started going to Ohayocon (this was around 2003 I think, maybe
04) it was primarily college-aged kids (with a sprinkling of older
adults...saw a woman, possibly in late 50s or older, dressed like a
goth-loli and had an armload of dolls; you can scrub your brain now ^_^)
but the last time I went (last year) it looked more like mid-late teens
(and a lot of parents too).
Ansgar -59cobalt- Wiechers
> The Relic <reli...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>> Captain Nerd wrote:
>>> Just wait until you're older than the President of the U.S.
>>>
>>> Cap
>>> (born 1958)
>>
>> I am already close to it (born 1962) ^_^...
>
> Waitaminute, if you're The Relic, and I'm older... than... you...
>
> *Sob*
Thanks for making me feel young again, guys. ^_^
cu
59-one small step for a man-cobalt
--
"My surname is Li and my personal name is Kao, and there is a slight
flaw in my character."
--Li Kao (Barry Hughart: Bridge of Birds)
Captain Nerd
The Relic <reli...@ameritech.net> wrote:
Unfortunately I have a hard time determining ages from appearances,
once the kids get into high school. I have a hard time believing I
ever looked as young as they do...
The Relic
Well, I can use my nephews and nieces for comparison's sake. They
span the ages from about 13 to 38 (and I can throw my great-nieces/
nephews into it if I have to ^_^). From what I used to see at the
store I worked at for years, they are pretty good models of the kids
runnin' around today.
As for me, I look like I did in high school...well, except I am about
85 lbs lighter, have a lot of grey hair and more wrinkles ^_<.
chr...@balder.sabir.com
> chr...@balder.sabir.com wrote:
>> On 2009-02-18, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> paranormalized wrote:
>>>> On Feb 17, 7:03 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>>> things and did all of them badly. Why it was so popular remains a mystery.
>>>> Question: How much of this is influenced by your opinion that stories
>>>> should end well?
>>> My personal dislike of it is certainly influenced by that. The first
>>> ending I can interpret as potentially happy because of its blurriness,
>>> at least.
>>>
>>> My opinion that it failed at the things it was attempting is based on
>>> my observation of what it was trying to do and what it SHOULD have done
>>> if it actually wanted to accomplsh those things.
>>>
>> self-contradictory.
>
> Never.
>
>>
>> I have no problems at all with you not liking Eva or thinking
>> it's boring and a failure. I've admired your stance throughout
>> the years on rasfw - Eva didn't work for you, so it's a failure
>> for you. But you've been doing a lot more in this thread -
>> you've been saying that in your opinion other people shouldn't
>> like it because it's poorly done and un-original.
>
> You are welcome to show where I said "other people shouldn't like it".
> I have never made such a statement. You may, of course, read into
> statements such as "I have no idea how it ever became popular" or
> similar, but even those aren't saying "other people shouldn't".
It's that statement, plus the immediately preceeding statement, that
"it perfected nothing, tried to do three or four things and did all of
them badly", and your statements elsewhere that there is nothing
original in it. Those are objective claims about Eva, and if
true, indeed are saying that at least some other people shouldn't
like it (those that care for quality implementations, and
originality).
>> If you as author were aiming at the internal conflict ending of
>> Eva, how would you have changed things?
>
> No real idea, because I don't do ambiguity or "end as shit" endings. If
> I was writing Evangelion, I'd have to first choose what kind of story I
> was telling: a psychological story of Shinji VS Gendo and his plans, an
> Alien/Angel Invasion, or a deconstruction of the Mecha And Kid Pilot
> genre. What the ending would be would drastically differ between these
> choices.
>
>
>
>> To put it in somewhat unfair language, it seems to me you're
>> saying that you didn't like Eva because it was unoriginal and you
>> didn't like or expect the ending partly because nobody had done
>> that in anime before.
>
> Shitty endings have been seen in anime many times before, and outside
> of it even more so. I didn't like the ending because it WASN'T an
> ending, and if I tried to view it as an ending, it sucked.
You didn't like it, but why wasn't it an ending (I'm just
focusing on the original 26 episodes here)? The primary
focus of the entire story is treatment of Shinji's mental
illness. He finally was able to confront his feelings, and work
through them. I can understand that you don't like that this was
the focus but that just means that Eva was a different story than
you had hoped it would be.
I'm not trying to convince you to like Eva. Based on everything
I've read from you over the years, Eva just isn't the type of
story you like. E.g., it's theme focused and you're more plot
focused. You're a firm believer in the power of rational
thought, and that just doesn't fit stories of mental illness.
Shinji is mentally ill; he's far past being rational. The author
emphasizes this early by showing Shinji's deep doubts about
self-worth, despite being cast as arguably the most important
human alive - the defender of the entire human race.
Where you see multiple stories at the same level and therefore
confusion, I see one dominant theme that everything else is
subservient to - Shinji's recovery from mental illness. You've
got the Angel external conflict, with their terrifying weapons of
complete self-knowledge (and self-sufficiency?). You've got the
Instrumentality external conflict, with the goal of complete
disappearance of individuality within others. Both are extremes that
Shinji needs some of, but needs to walk between in his recovery.
As far as originality, you claim the mecha in Eva aren't
original??? Where else in anime do you have mecha as
psychological therapy devices? They are a humanoid figure
enclosing the pilot in a womb filled with life-sustaining fluid,
with the soul of each mecha being that individual pilot's mother.
Their function is to protect the pilot as the pilot suffers the
"attacks" of the Angels' self-knowledge weapons. They are a
major tool in Shinji's recovery. You know mecha far better than
I, Sea Wasp, but I think I would have heard of psychological
therapy mecha if they had existed before. Are there examples?
The central theme of Eva, treatment of mental illness, is
original in anime as far as I know. Even now there are very few
examples of it, _Paprika_ might be one. There's certainly lots
of mentally damaged folks out there (_Cowboy Bepop_ with the crew
all individually temporarily taking a break from society), and
there's certainly some that focus on mental illness (_Paranoia
Agent_), but I'm unaware of anime where the protagonist is
damaged to the point of mental illness, and the focus of the
anime is on his/her therapy and recovery. Are there examples?
And it didn't escape me that you didn't answer my implied
question about originality of the ending You're perfectly
entitled to your opinion of the quality of the ending, but I
wasn't arguing about that (I can't). I view the ending as
original - are there examples that show it isn't?
Aside: There is an interpretation of Eva which makes it all
perfectly rational and solves all kinds of conflicts between the
threads. But somehow I strongly suspect it doesn't make Sea Wasp
any happier! I rot13 it because while I have no doubt it's an
intentional, alternate interpretation of the author, I dislike
thinking of Eva in this way, and refuse to defend it:
Gung gurer ner 2-3 frpbaqf bs "ernyvgl" va Rin - gur 2-3 frpbaqf
va gur raqvat bs Fuvawv erzrzorevat n cerfrag-qnl zbqrea snzvyl.
Nyy gur erfg vf vzzrefvba va n iveghny ernyvgl cflpubybtvpny gurencl
frffvba, nyn gur gurencl va Mrynmal'f _Gur Qernz Znfgre_ be Ineyrl'f
_Fgrry Ornpu_ (V xabj Frn Jnfc unf ernq guvf), be va navzr _Cncevxn_).
Fb 26 rcvfbqrf bs gurencl frffvbaf sbe Fuvawv (naq cbffvoyl Nfhxn),
engure guna whfg 2!
So overall, Sea Wasp, while you have strong valid reasons for
disliking Eva, I believe your complaints of it having too many
stories and being unoriginal are based on your dislike of it,
rather than objective facts. You don't like the central story
about mental illness, but you can't just remove it and then claim
unoriginality and disjointedness of the rest, which is what (so
far) you seem to be doing.
Chris
Blade
rebuttal.
<chr...@balder.sabir.com> wrote in message
news:slrngptsnf...@balder.sabir.com...
> On 2009-02-18, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> You are welcome to show where I said "other people shouldn't like it".
>> I have never made such a statement. You may, of course, read into
>> statements such as "I have no idea how it ever became popular" or
>> similar, but even those aren't saying "other people shouldn't".
>
> It's that statement, plus the immediately preceeding statement, that
> "it perfected nothing, tried to do three or four things and did all of
> them badly", and your statements elsewhere that there is nothing
> original in it. Those are objective claims about Eva, and if
> true, indeed are saying that at least some other people shouldn't
> like it (those that care for quality implementations, and
> originality).
Saying Eva did things badly and perfected nothing are not objective claims.
They are 100% subjective. So is the claim that there's nothing original in
it (and besides which, as has been said many times, nothing's actually
original anyway).
>> Shitty endings have been seen in anime many times before, and outside
>> of it even more so. I didn't like the ending because it WASN'T an
>> ending, and if I tried to view it as an ending, it sucked.
>
> You didn't like it, but why wasn't it an ending (I'm just
> focusing on the original 26 episodes here)? The primary
> focus of the entire story is treatment of Shinji's mental
> illness. He finally was able to confront his feelings, and work
> through them. I can understand that you don't like that this was
> the focus but that just means that Eva was a different story than
> you had hoped it would be.
Noooooooo. That's something you can say, but it's not really supported. The
Angels and the Evas and the threat to the world got a hell of a lot higher
billing than Shinji's problems in the first few episodes, and retained equal
focus in the plot until quite late in the series (probably the Kaworu
episode). Just completely ignoring that in favour of resolving Shinji's
self-esteem issues is a decision that quite legitimately pissed off many
people, and it should be easily understandable why.
-
Blade
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> So overall, Sea Wasp, while you have strong valid reasons for
> disliking Eva, I believe your complaints of it having too many
> stories and being unoriginal are based on your dislike of it,
> rather than objective facts. You don't like the central story
> about mental illness,
I don't see any central story about mental illness. Nor do I see the
EVA units as therapy devices. Unless your interpretation of EVA is that
none of what we see really happens.
In which case your "mecha as therapy" are nothing more than sensory
induction tanks, which are an OLD device in SF.
sanjian
> chr...@balder.sabir.com wrote:
>
>> So overall, Sea Wasp, while you have strong valid reasons for
>> disliking Eva, I believe your complaints of it having too many
>> stories and being unoriginal are based on your dislike of it,
>> rather than objective facts. You don't like the central story
>> about mental illness,
>
> I don't see any central story about mental illness. Nor do I see the
> EVA units as therapy devices. Unless your interpretation of EVA is
> that none of what we see really happens.
Not Shinji's therapy, Anno's.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
That is not a story. That's METAstory. That's the reasoning behind what
was being made, but that's not part of the story itself, and is irrelevant.
sanjian
For Eva, the metastory is more relevent than the story, itself.
chr...@balder.sabir.com
> I don't agree with Sea Wasp, but there's some things here that I felt needed
> rebuttal.
>
><chr...@balder.sabir.com> wrote in message
> news:slrngptsnf...@balder.sabir.com...
>> "it perfected nothing, tried to do three or four things and did all of
>> them badly", and your statements elsewhere that there is nothing
>> original in it. Those are objective claims about Eva, and if
>> true, indeed are saying that at least some other people shouldn't
>> like it (those that care for quality implementations, and
>> originality).
>
> Saying Eva did things badly and perfected nothing are not objective claims.
> They are 100% subjective. So is the claim that there's nothing original in
> it (and besides which, as has been said many times, nothing's actually
> original anyway).
100%?? Nonsense. Sure, there are elements of subjectivity in
each. But Sea Wasp was attempting to be objective, analyzing
"badly" in relation to Eva's own goals, not his. (He can correct
me if he disagrees.) As far as originality goes, the question
there is granularity. Large enough granularity, everything is
non-original. Small enough, everything is original (except exact
copies). Again, here I let Sea Wasp define the playing field.
He was the one talking about originality in anime at the level of
properties of mecha. If we're talking at that level, then surely
talking originality of the climactic ending and central theme are
also in play.
>>> Shitty endings have been seen in anime many times before, and outside
>>> of it even more so. I didn't like the ending because it WASN'T an
>>> ending, and if I tried to view it as an ending, it sucked.
>>
>> You didn't like it, but why wasn't it an ending (I'm just
>> focusing on the original 26 episodes here)? The primary
>> focus of the entire story is treatment of Shinji's mental
>> illness. He finally was able to confront his feelings, and work
>> through them. I can understand that you don't like that this was
>> the focus but that just means that Eva was a different story than
>> you had hoped it would be.
>
> Noooooooo. That's something you can say, but it's not really supported. The
> Angels and the Evas and the threat to the world got a hell of a lot higher
> billing than Shinji's problems in the first few episodes, and retained equal
> focus in the plot until quite late in the series (probably the Kaworu
> episode). Just completely ignoring that in favour of resolving Shinji's
> self-esteem issues is a decision that quite legitimately pissed off many
> people, and it should be easily understandable why.
I entirely understand why. I suspect there's a good chance that
Sea Wasp was among those so affected. But it remains the case
that you can't expect to always understand what the central theme
is until the end. (Has anybody ever really known what the
central themes of _Lain_ or _Texhnolyze_ were just from the first
half of the episodes? Hell, with _Texhnolyze_ it took me two
weeks after seeing all the episodes before I understood enough to
move it from "incoherent mish-mash" to "extremely good"). The
mental problems of Shinji were there from the beginning, and
everything that developed in that area was completely consistent
with what had gone on before.
Hmmm. I now see there's a possible miscommunication because of
my word "entire". Bad phrasing on my part. I did not intend to
mean "at every point in the story the primary focus was his
mental illness." I meant "in the story as a whole, the primary
focus was his mental illness", and I would also add that that was
true throughout the story (at no point was it the case that the
primary focus of the entire story definitively something else -
you just didn't know for most of it). Did that clear things up,
or just muddy them further?
Chris
chr...@balder.sabir.com
> chr...@balder.sabir.com wrote:
>
>> So overall, Sea Wasp, while you have strong valid reasons for
>> disliking Eva, I believe your complaints of it having too many
>> stories and being unoriginal are based on your dislike of it,
>> rather than objective facts. You don't like the central story
>> about mental illness,
>
> I don't see any central story about mental illness. Nor do I see the
> EVA units as therapy devices.
Do you deny that the mental illness theme is there, or do you
believe it's there but are denying that it's central? In either
case, just the fact of the ending is strong evidence in favor of
the central mental illness theme. While it may be fine to not
admit the existence of movie sequels if you don't like them, it's
not fine to ignore the existence of the climactic scene of the
original story just because you don't like or understand it. As
you've already said, the ending is Shinji's psychological
therapy. What is your reasoning for why it's there if not for
mental illness?
As for the mecha, why do they have the characteristics of
providing a safe-haven womb, if not for the psychological impact?
Do you even agree they they are intentionally womb-like?
> Unless your interpretation of EVA is that
> none of what we see really happens.
> In which case your "mecha as therapy" are nothing more than sensory
> induction tanks, which are an OLD device in SF.
Hey, I went 45 years back in my SF cite to Zelazny, what more do you
want me to do in a casual conversation? As I said, I don't
defend that interpretation of Eva.
Note: I do agree with you that while Anno's therapy may have
greatly influenced Eva, it should not be a factor in this sort of
analysis. Eva stands on its own for this. But I do believe you
need to analyze all of Eva (at least the 26 episodes), and not
ignore the parts you dislike.
Chris
Yaniv Tempelman
No, the meta-story is *very relevant* in Evangelion's case. It's a
perfect example of a series which misguides commong viewer habits on
purpose by disintegrating itself as a coherrent narrative and points
you, the viewer, at the construct lying below.
Like any arthouse-movie, the second half of evangelion is either hit or
miss. If you don't like arthouse-movies or auteur based movies in
general, evangelion is simply not an anime for you.
--
Yaniv Tempelman
Derek Janssen
> On 2009-02-20, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>chr...@balder.sabir.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So overall, Sea Wasp, while you have strong valid reasons for
>>>disliking Eva, I believe your complaints of it having too many
>>>stories and being unoriginal are based on your dislike of it,
>>>rather than objective facts. You don't like the central story
>>>about mental illness,
>>
>> I don't see any central story about mental illness. Nor do I see the
>>EVA units as therapy devices.
>
> Note: I do agree with you that while Anno's therapy may have
> greatly influenced Eva, it should not be a factor in this sort of
> analysis. Eva stands on its own for this. But I do believe you
> need to analyze all of Eva (at least the 26 episodes), and not
> ignore the parts you dislike.
Over on the Blu-ray forums--where they actually/literally DO believe All
Anime is Eva, Appleseed, Paprika, Tekonkinkreet, GitS and Akira--the
"Friends don't let first-timer friends watch Akira/Eva" debate
resurfaced again from crossover fans...
And even after ten years--and literally *hundreds* more anime options
available on DVD--the 1999 Mentality is still there:
"But you HAVE to watch Eva, even if you don't really like it!...It's so
NEW! And it's so weird and SERIOUS-like!...And you can rent it on disk,
that's neat!"
I tried playing Western Missionary, and posting Youtube clips of Ranma
(the enter-Shampoo episode, no less) and Funi's online Slayers dub to
the natives--and even ADV's with-Mari "Macross" dub, just in case any
old geezer mentioned growing up with 80's-afternoon old-school--and the
"In praise of Inscrutable Artsy-Shock Anime" continued on, tenacious and
unkillable.
(There seems to be more of a hardcore-fan interest in preserving an
*image*, than in actually appraising a series vs. its old and new
competition, and whether it deserves its reputation versus its own genre--
Ten years ago, we'd be having this exact same conversation about
"Bubblegum Crisis"...Well, we know *somebody* would, anyway.) ;)
Derek Janssen (and just where ARE all the Serial Experiment Lain
defenders today?)
eja...@verizon.net
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On 2009-02-20, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> chr...@balder.sabir.com wrote:
>>
>>> So overall, Sea Wasp, while you have strong valid reasons for
>>> disliking Eva, I believe your complaints of it having too many
>>> stories and being unoriginal are based on your dislike of it,
>>> rather than objective facts. You don't like the central story
>>> about mental illness,
>> I don't see any central story about mental illness. Nor do I see the
>> EVA units as therapy devices.
>
> Do you deny that the mental illness theme is there, or do you
> believe it's there but are denying that it's central? In either
> case, just the fact of the ending is strong evidence in favor of
> the central mental illness theme.
I'm not seeing "mental illness" as a part of the Eva theme. I'm seeing
abuse and mental problems in the context of that abuse, but not mental
illness in the sense of some ongoing theme. ALL of the characters have
Issues. Shinji's is mainly that he's an ineffectual jellyfish. There's
no "treatment" involved with the Evas; they're fighting alien (or
Deific) invasion using biotech stolen from the alien/Deific invaders.
The very end gets phantasmagoric, yes, but I've always interpreted it
as "here's some directions the universe could go. Choose which one,
Shinji." (HA! Asking Shinji to CHOOSE! There's a good joke!)
The subtitle I watched was rather difficult to read the last few
episodes; apparently translation/subbing by one group stopped just near
the end.
While it may be fine to not
> admit the existence of movie sequels if you don't like them, it's
> not fine to ignore the existence of the climactic scene of the
> original story just because you don't like or understand it. As
> you've already said, the ending is Shinji's psychological
> therapy.
No, you mistook me. The series was ANNOs therapy. You COULD argue that
the whole thing is "Shinji's Totally Nuts and None of These Things
Really Happened", but that's not at all shown in the series. (and if it
is, would suck even more than I thought -- that would put it on a par
with "Jacob's Ladder", the worst movie I ever paid money to see)
> As for the mecha, why do they have the characteristics of
> providing a safe-haven womb, if not for the psychological impact?
> Do you even agree they they are intentionally womb-like?
They are defensive interface capsules. Liquid-filled is the best way to
manage to protect a human body from massive impact/accelerations.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Hello,
>
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> sanjian wrote:
>>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> chr...@balder.sabir.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So overall, Sea Wasp, while you have strong valid reasons for
>>>>> disliking Eva, I believe your complaints of it having too many
>>>>> stories and being unoriginal are based on your dislike of it,
>>>>> rather than objective facts. You don't like the central story
>>>>> about mental illness,
>>>> I don't see any central story about mental illness. Nor do I see the
>>>> EVA units as therapy devices. Unless your interpretation of EVA is
>>>> that none of what we see really happens.
>>>
>>> Not Shinji's therapy, Anno's.
>>>
>>
>> That is not a story. That's METAstory. That's the reasoning behind
>> what was being made, but that's not part of the story itself, and is
>> irrelevant.
>
> No, the meta-story is *very relevant* in Evangelion's case.
No, it's not.
If I want to know about YOUR therapy, I can read your therapist's
notes. That's not relevant to my watching a show.
Blade
"Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:T6Gnl.638$Ez6...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> Derek Janssen (and just where ARE all the Serial Experiment Lain defenders
> today?)
(raises hand) It's an extremely good series. It's not Utena or anything, but
it's in the upper echelon of anime I've seen. And unlike Eva, I find it a
pretty coherent narrative. I'd still recommend it to new anime watchers who
like cyberpunkish/conspiracy stuff without hesitation.
-
Blade
(Also unlike Eva, I own it. Twice over, in fact.)