Fansub Code of Ethics
Farix
war. Oh well, it still anime related an interesting topic
One of the things I've been working on for a local con is a fansub
ethics panel. It's something I think the community as a whole should
talk more about instead of the "Fansubs bad! Fansubs good!" mantra we've
been dealing with lately.
So in relation to this topic, what are your personal ethical standards
relating to fansubs? What are your core principles in developing your
fansub ethics? And how do you implement your ethical standards in
downloading and purchasing of anime?
I guess you can call my personal code somewhat old fashion. I believe
that if you obtain and watch a series on fansubs, you are morally
obligated to purchase that series when it is released domestically. This
purchase doesn't have to be immediately after the domestic release, but
"when I can".
The principle behind this is that my behavior should not cause any
unnecessary harm to the industry or the market. In fact, I very much
like to support the domestic industry and its market where I am able. I
prefer to purchase my anime from local retailers as a way to encourage
them to carry more. And I frequently buy the art boxes of many of the
series I collect.
As for how I implement my ethical standards, each season, I will sample
the shows I am interested in. From there I make a determination of which
shows I would be willing to purchase if they are ever licensed and
released. Then I will only follow those shows that I'm willing to
purchases and drop the rest, even if I like the show that I'm dropping.
That means that I am extremely picky about what I watch as I really
have to enjoy the show before I continue following it on fansubs.
My purchase rate is actually pretty good. Right now, there are only two
licensed shows that I downloaded on fansubs, yet have not purchased.
(Kiba and My-Otome) The other 9 to 10 series that have been licensed and
I have on fansubs, I have purchased over time. As for the two remaining
series, the former I'm going to purchase next month and the latter I am
waiting for the inevitable box set release.
Farix
Dave Baranyi
"Farix" <dhstr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gv440n$hvq$1...@news.parasun.com...
>I wonder if we can keep this topic from turning into a general flame
> war. Oh well, it still anime related an interesting topic
>
Yes you can stop it from becoming a flamewar post - you can stop posting
troll-bait topics.
This topic was done to death years ago, and no one cares nowadays other than
trolls. You may as well start a "Subs versus Dubs" or a "VHS versus DVD"
thread.
Do us all a favor in the future - okay?
Dave Baranyi
Derek Janssen
What he said--
That was "Gee, Darky hasn't been around here in a while..." begging to
the point of crawling.
Complete with, "Gee, hope this doesn't start a big bad flamewar for
months on end--Uh, you *are* gonna start a flamewar over this,
aren'tcha....guys?....Little one??"
Derek Janssen (we'd say "Get used to disappointment", but getting used
to obsolescence would seem to be higher on the list)
eja...@verizon.net
Doug Jacobs
> I wonder if we can keep this topic from turning into a general flame
> war. Oh well, it still anime related an interesting topic
Probably not, but let's see how long it takes...
> One of the things I've been working on for a local con is a fansub
> ethics panel. It's something I think the community as a whole should
> talk more about instead of the "Fansubs bad! Fansubs good!" mantra we've
> been dealing with lately.
Sounds good, but unfortunately, I think it's too late.
> So in relation to this topic, what are your personal ethical standards
> relating to fansubs? What are your core principles in developing your
> fansub ethics? And how do you implement your ethical standards in
> downloading and purchasing of anime?
This was what was in place 15+ odd years ago.
The folks who were running the clubs I became involved with had very
strong standards, which they impressed on everyone before tape trading.
It went something like this:
Never forget, this is an illegal activity. We are making illegal copies
of copyrighted material here. We still do this as a means of advocacy.
Our goal is to help create a legitimate market for anime in the US so that
we won't have to do this any more. In exchange for receiving copies, we
only ask that you pass these ideals on when you make copies for others.
The leaders of the clubs made copies, you only needed to provide them with
blank tapes, and they'd do 1 or 2 tapes a month for you. There were other
members who were also engaged in making copies, and they too had adopted
the same pledge moreorless.
Commercial stuff was rare (we're talking '93-'94 here) and of course was
off limits for copying. Even copying bootlegs was discouraged.
As fansubs became more prelevant, trading was still largely restricted to
clubs. This meant that you had to pretty much be involved with a club at
some level in order to get access to the fansubbed stuff. Since the
club's officers were also the ones still following the pledge, it also
meant that enforcing the fansubbing rules was mostly followed. Mostly.
Of course, bootlegs of fansubs still showed up at cons. And I'm sure many
older fans can remember watching fansubs that stuck something like "If you
paid for this tape, you were ripped off!" in the middle of the episode.
It was also at this time that the club grew from 50-60 to 300-400. This
made it impossible to copy tapes for everyone. So I and some other
officers came up with the idea of the tape party. You'd bring your own
VCR and blank tapes over, and we'd figure out how to daisy chain all the
VCRs together, and copying would commence. We'd watch stuff, or play
board games all day while cranking through 5 or 6 tapes. Since different
people had different stuff, sometimes you were the source, sometimes you
were recipient. The leaders thought it was brilliant - the weren't on the
hook for copies anymore. It worked out well.
It worked out TOO well. Next thing I knew, there were larger and larger
tape parties - including one legendary session that supposedly lasted an
entire month, resulting in the host losing his girlfriend, and almost
getting thrown out of his apartment by his super-annoyed, and now
EX-anime-fan roommate. Well, while such distribution systems are
efficient, they also make it impossible to control what gets copied.
At this time (~95-96) commercial anime is only on VHS, and the sub/dub
flamewars are being waged on usenet and every other anime-board across
the country. Things like Ranma were still being distributed, with folks
using the excuse that Viz's translations left a lot to be desired, and who
knew if Viz would ever finish releasing the series?
These were issues I never resolved for myself. I had certainly seen
instances of a show coming to the US, only to be altered, censored,
rewritten, or totally butchered. If the US release was total garbage, did
that make it OK to continue releasing the fansubs? At what point could
you consider the English and Japanese versions to be different programs?
One extreme would be Card Captor Sakura, which was unarguably totally
lobotomized into Card Captors. But on the other hand, Dragon Ball Z made
it through mostly unscathed, with references to "another world" and the
immortal "HFIL" not withstanding.
I graduated in 96 and left the university anime club behind. While I
and the other outgoing officers tried to impress the pledge onto the new
generation of leadership, it was clear that things were changing. The
pledge was still there, but the advocacy part wasn't really being paid
attention to anymore. Tape parties were virtually another club activity,
despite our earlier efforts to conscicously tell each other "this is not a
club activity. this is a private meeting of friends..." But that just
got morphed into becoming an almost secret society within the club -
definitely not what was intended...
As anime showed up on DVD, I like everyone else who was in clubs at the
same time, rushed to replace our aging, illegal VHS libraries with shiny,
new, legitimate DVDs. During this time, fansubbed tapes gave way to
digisubs. This essentially let the cat out of the bag, and destroyed any
hope of trying to control distribution. Even if there are fansubbers out
there who stick to a strict code of behavior, such as stopping work on and
distribution of a series once it's licensed, it doesn't matter because so
many other people don't follow. Worse still, you no longer needed to be
connected to a club in order to get stuff. This is both good and bad.
Good - wider distribution. Bad - these people aren't being told the
pledge, and even those who knew it, I fear weren't following it anymore.
Even then, the fansubbers have gotten much more aggressive. If an episode
airs in Japan today, it'll be fansubbed and on the internet within a
couple of days. The US companies can't keep up with that rate.
While there's more anime available in the US than ever before it's not
quite the utopia that fans like I had dreamt about from the late 80s and
early 90s. And bone-headed decisions about how shows are brought to the
US isn't helping any.
The US market should take a look at Taiwan's manga market and take some
lessons. There are companies in Taiwan that purchase the rights to manga
titles, and produce translated volumes within a few months of the Japanese
version hitting the shelves in Japan. Yeah, while bootleg comics and
scanlations, are going to exist their window is much smaller. Compare
this to the time it takes for anime show to appear in Japan until it shows
up on DVD in the US, and you're looking at years. That's a long time for
your potential pool of sales to wander off or lose interest due to
digisubs. While I know that it takes more time and effort to translate an
anime show than a manga, there's no excuse why the companies are looking
at such a long delay between the Japanese and English releases.
--
It's not broken. It's...advanced.
Blade
believe fans as a whole (and fansubbers as a whole) will adhere to even the
most rudimentary ethics, which I believe is borne out by the history of the
practice.
Considering it as the situation stands, however...
Personally, I have no particular issue with downloading fansubs to see an
episode or two of a show to see if you like it (for the case of movies and
very short series, I think trailers suffice and thus fansubs are
unnecessary). I think watching any beyond that gives you the moral
obligation to buy a legitimate copy of the show, be that a North American
copy or Japanese copy. For instance, I have a set of fansubs of Sailor Moon
Stars; I also own the legitimate Japanese Sailor Stars DVDs, since it was
never released in English.
If you are committed to buying the series as soon as it is available, I have
no issue with continuing to watch the fansubs, since they will exist whether
you watch them or not. After seeing one episode of Elfen Lied I knew I would
buy the series the instant it came out (as indeed I did), and therefore had
no problems watching the rest of it fansubbed while waiting. I'd probably be
more careful nowadays, since some series' are starting to come out sub-only
and I generally refuse to buy those releases.
I also do not have a problem with watching fansubs of shows that are simply
unavailable through legitimate means (as was the case with Five Star Stories
for awhile, for instance), with the caveat that should that situation change
(as I think it did for 5SS), you are then morally obligated to purchase a
copy immediately.
I do not think watching an entire series then not buying it because you
don't like the ending is in any way ethical.
-
Blade
Inu-Yasha
"Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:QYiRl.2344$wR5...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Hey guys,
He asks a reasonable anime related set of questions. Some of us haven't
been here since the internet first started, so we may not have participated
in the discussions you mention. Besides, if you don't like feeding trolls
as you put it, ignore the thread rather participating in it.
As for fansub ethics, I am not familiar enough with the laws of
copywrite, so won't discuss legal aspects, but I feel it is Ok to view and
keep fansubs that come form TV broadcasts. I belive if you like a series
and it becomes available in your country you should purchase it. If a
series/movie becomes licensed you should not up or download the episodes. I
don't believe that you are obligated to buy each and every anime you
download and view, just those you like and which you can buget money for, as
it certainly would be possible to use several thousand dollars in anime
purchases if you bought all that became available. I also believe that
fansubs of DVD versions licensed in your country or not are ethically wrong
and should be bypassed. These are my opinions, and I am more than willing
to discuss them and others opinions whether the same or opposite. Flames
and name calling *i will ignore.
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^
Arnold Kim
> I wonder if we can keep this topic from turning into a general flame
> war. Oh well, it still anime related an interesting topic
>
> One of the things I've been working on for a local con is a fansub
> ethics panel. It's something I think the community as a whole should
> talk more about instead of the "Fansubs bad! Fansubs good!" mantra
> we've been dealing with lately.
>
> So in relation to this topic, what are your personal ethical standards
> relating to fansubs? What are your core principles in developing your
> fansub ethics? And how do you implement your ethical standards in
> downloading and purchasing of anime?
Here's my rule- if I watch more than two episodes fansubbed, I have to buy
at least that much when it becomes available.
Arnold Kim
Brian Henderson
> I guess you can call my personal code somewhat old fashion. I believe
> that if you obtain and watch a series on fansubs, you are morally
> obligated to purchase that series when it is released domestically. This
> purchase doesn't have to be immediately after the domestic release, but
> "when I can".
Absolutely not, any more than if I watch a show on television, I am
morally obligated to purchase the series when it is released on DVD.
If, and only if, the series as released on DVD is something that is
worth purchasing, will I purchase it and that goes for domestic
television as well as anime. If they want my money, they have to earn
it and that means they need to put out an excellent product at a decent
price. If, however, if they put out a crappy translation, edited "for
my protection", with a crappy dub that I have to pay extra for, I'll
pass, sorry.
> The principle behind this is that my behavior should not cause any
> unnecessary harm to the industry or the market. In fact, I very much
> like to support the domestic industry and its market where I am able. I
> prefer to purchase my anime from local retailers as a way to encourage
> them to carry more. And I frequently buy the art boxes of many of the
> series I collect.
The only one that's causing harm to the industry is the industry. In
fact, I'd argue that buying crap only supports the production of more
crap, if everyone demanded quality and supported only quality, we'd get
a lot more quality because the ones incapable or unwilling to do so
would go out of business. That's how the free market is supposed to
work. Throwing money at anyone in a misguided effort to support an
"industry" only harms everyone.
Doug Jacobs
> Absolutely not, any more than if I watch a show on television, I am
> morally obligated to purchase the series when it is released on DVD.
> If, and only if, the series as released on DVD is something that is
> worth purchasing, will I purchase it and that goes for domestic
> television as well as anime. If they want my money, they have to earn
> it and that means they need to put out an excellent product at a decent
> price. If, however, if they put out a crappy translation, edited "for
> my protection", with a crappy dub that I have to pay extra for, I'll
> pass, sorry.
You aren't the only the one to have this view, so please don't feel I'm
picking on you personally.
This is where the "try before you buy" argument starts to run into problems...
TV is a separate issue. Shows on TV have been paid for, both through
licensing fees paid by the broadcaster, and by advertisers. Whether or
not you liked the show well enough to buy it is inconsequential.
However, if you watched the whole show via fansubs, and then that show got
licensed...well, then what? Do you buy the show as a way of retroactively
paying for having watched the fansubs? Some make it an absolute and say
they always have to. But by saying it has to be a good product, it leaves
way too much wiggle room for you to back out one way or another.
Part of the problem is that we're arguably talking about 2 separate
products here. The fansubs are based on the Japanese version, which isn't
always the version that ends up in the US. The first attempt at One Piece
is a good example of how you can end up with 2 different versions of the
same program. So what happens there? The version you WANT to buy - the
original Japanese version with English subtitles - doesn't exist. And it
doesn't make sense to be forced into buying whatever ends up in America
simply because it's now in English. So..do you buy the original Japanese
version instead? Personally that doesn't quite work either even though
Japanese anime DVDs tend to look much better than their American
counterparts...but then again they also cost 2-3x as much as well.
Unfortunately, it's also way too easy to just say "well, I wouldn't have
bought this show anyways but since I already downloaded it, I might as
well watch/keep it..."
No, I don't have a good answer here. I really wish that American
companies wouldn't butcher anime series, or at least release an uneditted
version alongside the the butchered version. This is what we got with
Cardcaptors/Card Captor Sakura, even though the CCS is only available with
subs and no dub whatsoever. Of course this only splits up an already
small market into even smaller segments, making it even harder to make a
profit or even break even on that release.
> The only one that's causing harm to the industry is the industry. In
> fact, I'd argue that buying crap only supports the production of more
> crap, if everyone demanded quality and supported only quality, we'd get
> a lot more quality because the ones incapable or unwilling to do so
> would go out of business. That's how the free market is supposed to
> work. Throwing money at anyone in a misguided effort to support an
> "industry" only harms everyone.
This argument only works if you don't buy the products in question, but
then also don't download or watch the fansubs. At all. As soon as you
download the fansubs, from the company's point of view, you become a sale
lost to piracy - regardless of your personal reasons for not buying the US
licensed product. It also helps to actually write a letter (physical
letter) explaining to the company why you will not be buying their
product. Anyone can send email, but it takes a bit of extra effort, and
the cash for the stamp, to send a letter. Be polite, use proper grammar
and spelling.
Ken Arromdee
Arnold Kim <arno...@optonline.net> wrote:
>Here's my rule- if I watch more than two episodes fansubbed, I have to buy
>at least that much when it becomes available.
Here's a suggestion, which admittedly I'm not offering completely
seriously:
Give the company whatever money you would have if it was a licensed television
program. If being on TV would have gotten you to buy a DVD set, then buy
the DVD set. If being on TV would have led you to skip the commercials
and watch the show without giving the creators any revenue, then you are not
morally obliged to give the creators any more revenue than that with a
fansub. (Of course, no fair cheating by saying "I would have skipped
commercials" when you actually wouldn't have.)
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
"In a superhero story, Superman jumps off buildings and flies. In a realistic
story, Superman doesn't jump off buildings and can't fly. Deconstruction is
writing a story where Superman can't fly but he still jumps off of buildings."
Mehdi Tibouchi
<YK2dnZMQZcujdIvX...@posted.rawbandwidth>:
>
> TV is a separate issue. Shows on TV have been paid for, both through
> licensing fees paid by the broadcaster, and by advertisers. Whether or
> not you liked the show well enough to buy it is inconsequential.
I've said it already, but that's not actually how things work for anime
in Japan (if you discount the big family entertainment titles like Chibi
Maruko-chan and the kid/teen-targeted hits a la Naruto).
In most cases (so-called UHF anime), the production committee actually
buys late-night time slots from selected local TV channels to broadcast
their show, as some kind of infomercial to advertise DVDs, related
merchandise and the original material in the case of an adaptation. Then
it costs money to air anime, not the other way around.
The other common scenario has a larger TV network running the production
committee. There are no licensing fees involved, and only a very small
minority of shows are to be found in the wide-audience time slots that
will generate significant ad revenues. It's actually quite common for ad
breaks in anime to promote tie-in products and merchandise.
Doug Jacobs
> I've said it already, but that's not actually how things work for anime
> in Japan (if you discount the big family entertainment titles like Chibi
> Maruko-chan and the kid/teen-targeted hits a la Naruto).
I was speaking about the US market, not Japanese one.
Besides which, in Japan, the bulk of the revenue for a series doesn't come
from the DVD sales. There's manga, art books, CDs, games, toys, clothing,
stationary, etc. I doubt that DVD sales even make up 10% of most shows'
total revenue, mainly due to the fact that they're so darned expensive.
At any rate, by the time a show has been licensed to the US, it has already
made back the money involved for the initial production. The Japanese
company insists the licensing fee be paid, in full immediately, so the US
release already starts out in debt even before a single word has been
translated. It also doesn't help any that the Japanese license fees have
dramatically increased as the Japanese companies have started getting
greedier and greedier as their other revenues have continued to fall over
the years.
> In most cases (so-called UHF anime), the production committee actually
> buys late-night time slots from selected local TV channels to broadcast
> their show, as some kind of infomercial to advertise DVDs, related
> merchandise and the original material in the case of an adaptation. Then
> it costs money to air anime, not the other way around.
> The other common scenario has a larger TV network running the production
> committee. There are no licensing fees involved, and only a very small
> minority of shows are to be found in the wide-audience time slots that
> will generate significant ad revenues. It's actually quite common for ad
> breaks in anime to promote tie-in products and merchandise.
Either way, the majority of the costs are covered by the airing of the
show.
In the US, most anime never gets aired, so there are no broadcasting
licenses or advertising fees. There's also very little in terms of
merchandising done as well. As a result, in the US, basically 100%
of the cost of bringing the show to market MUST be made back from DVD sales.
This is one of the reasons the US anime industry is in such a mess right
now.
Doug Jacobs
> Here's a suggestion, which admittedly I'm not offering completely
> seriously:
>
> Give the company whatever money you would have if it was a licensed television
> program. If being on TV would have gotten you to buy a DVD set, then buy
> the DVD set. If being on TV would have led you to skip the commercials
> and watch the show without giving the creators any revenue, then you are not
> morally obliged to give the creators any more revenue than that with a
> fansub. (Of course, no fair cheating by saying "I would have skipped
> commercials" when you actually wouldn't have.)
I'm not sure how that works... Nowadays, who doesn't have a DVR and skips
all commercials?
darkst...@gmail.com
> I wonder if we can keep this topic from turning into a general flame
> war. Oh well, it still anime related an interesting topic
I doubt that seriously, especially after my responses to this thread.
I'll try to keep _this one_ civil.
> One of the things I've been working on for a local con is a fansub
> ethics panel. It's something I think the community as a whole should
> talk more about instead of the "Fansubs bad! Fansubs good!" mantra we've
> been dealing with lately.
The problem with that is that you are dealing with a fanbase with NO
ethics at all. None with respect to each other, and fewer with
respect to the industry. Witness one convention last year where at
least two female VA's were sexually assaulted and third was threatened
with same.
I mean, the whole concept might've worked in a fanbase which
understands the costs of the medium and the purpose of what fansubs
really are _supposed to be_. Now, however, they (the fanbase) have
total control over the industry, and the ability (and the desire!) to
choke it to death -- slowly.
You don't think that a lot of these punks who download every new
Naruto Shippuden don't take a degree of glee in sticking another nail
in the coffin of an industry of which they would have no part of if
they were compelled to help support it to view the product?
A code of ethics for fansubs is like a code of ethics for steroids in
sports -- there was probably a purpose for it at one time, but it's
far too late for that now without outside authorities getting involved
and literally rewriting the entire environment.
> So in relation to this topic, what are your personal ethical standards
> relating to fansubs? What are your core principles in developing your
> fansub ethics? And how do you implement your ethical standards in
> downloading and purchasing of anime?
There can be no more downloading for me. Not after what I've seen the
downloading do to the anime in general, the types and themes of anime
being put out today, and watching what little enjoyment I would get
out of the anime demimonde ripped out by a bunch of punks (not
necessarily RAAM -- I see them in the "real world" too) who would much
rather get it for free and deny everyone else the enjoyment they would
get out of anime (hence, the downloaders, in this regard, win _twice_)
otherwise.
> I guess you can call my personal code somewhat old fashion. I believe
> that if you obtain and watch a series on fansubs, you are morally
> obligated to purchase that series when it is released domestically. This
> purchase doesn't have to be immediately after the domestic release, but
> "when I can".
The problem with this approach is the fact that fansubs are no longer
a promotion point (as they were a number of years ago -- you do say
the personal code is old-fashioned). They have become THE entry point
to the anime multi-verse for hundreds of thousands of anime fans. For
essentially all of this type, the concept of even purchasing anime is
laughable (and, really, given what the companies appear to be doing to
capitulate to them, are they wrong in this regard any longer?)...
Take Ouran for example. Why did I buy both volumes of Ouran?? The
entire series (subbed - the first half dubbed, and I would expect the
rest to be there shortly) is now available, in full and _LEGALLY_, on
Funimation.com and Funimation's YouTube channel.
Why am I buying a product which the thieves have basically made a big
fat financial zero, now to the admission of even the licensing and
dubbing companies?
> The principle behind this is that my behavior should not cause any
> unnecessary harm to the industry or the market. In fact, I very much
> like to support the domestic industry and its market where I am able. I
> prefer to purchase my anime from local retailers as a way to encourage
> them to carry more. And I frequently buy the art boxes of many of the
> series I collect.
The problem with that is only that, in the old-school, the licensor
has the absolute right to determine if, when, and how you receive the
product.
In the new-school, the problem is (short of buying it as logo
merchandise alone) why are you buying it at all?
> As for how I implement my ethical standards, each season, I will sample
> the shows I am interested in. From there I make a determination of which
> shows I would be willing to purchase if they are ever licensed and
> released. Then I will only follow those shows that I'm willing to
> purchases and drop the rest, even if I like the show that I'm dropping.
> That means that I am extremely picky about what I watch as I really
> have to enjoy the show before I continue following it on fansubs.
I will reiterate a question I've asked before, much to your chagrin,
but this is a serious question:
What IS the product being sold here?
If it's the animation, you have no right to "sample" it outside of
channels in which the Japanese or their licensors allow, to protect
the ability to make enough money later to continue the process (which
they cannot do now).
If it's not, I am genuinely curious to find out what it is they are
attempting (and failing!!) to protect through copyright and license.
If you have an unceded copyright on material, you have the ultimate
right to control who gets it, how, and when. Without that, you have
nothing more than a damn piece of paper. Licensors, even more
worthlessly so.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> What he said--
> That was "Gee, Darky hasn't been around here in a while..." begging to
> the point of crawling.
MOI???
At least I am willing to try to at least intelligently deal with Farix
with my initial response to him. The flamage might come later, but
I'll at least start with some degree of sanity because I think he's
trying to justify something without dealing with the rest of the
issues involved.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
To Farix' question:
> > So in relation to this topic, what are your personal ethical standards
> > relating to fansubs? What are your core principles in developing your
> > fansub ethics? And how do you implement your ethical standards in
> > downloading and purchasing of anime?
>
> This was what was in place 15+ odd years ago.
But no longer, and that's more a bottom-up thing than top-down.
That's more a function of what the fans have done to the anime
industry through their attitudes (on fansubbing and other affairs)
than the fansubbers themselves, until CrunchyShit got involved
hardcore and the real money started getting behind the pirates. Now,
the legit companies, hopelessly behind and pretty much in a hopeless
situation, are hanging on by threads which might well not exist at
all.
> The folks who were running the clubs I became involved with had very
> strong standards, which they impressed on everyone before tape trading.
>
> It went something like this:
>
> Never forget, this is an illegal activity. We are making illegal copies
> of copyrighted material here. We still do this as a means of advocacy.
> Our goal is to help create a legitimate market for anime in the US so that
> we won't have to do this any more. In exchange for receiving copies, we
> only ask that you pass these ideals on when you make copies for others.
And, 15 or so years ago -- I'd probably say down to about 5 -- that
actually was a pretty good way to go.
Even places like WonderCon in San Francisco were showing fansubs in
their show up to about 5 years ago. (Now, all material is licensed
and from the official release or similar authorized channel.)
Something happened, and it basically correlated with not only the
explosion of the Internet as a means of distribution and the explosion
of the (at least apparent) fanbase. They stopped caring, when they
realized that the material could be just taken -- without recompense,
retribution, or consequence -- and replicated infinitely without a
care in the world.
Fansubbery is no longer a means of advocacy of the anime industry --
it now IS the anime industry. And that's why studios and licensing
companies are falling like overripe bunches of bananas.
> The leaders of the clubs made copies, you only needed to provide them with
> blank tapes, and they'd do 1 or 2 tapes a month for you. There were other
> members who were also engaged in making copies, and they too had adopted
> the same pledge moreorless.
Basically the same "tape tree" idea that many fandoms (which see The
Grateful Dead) had for years.
> Commercial stuff was rare (we're talking '93-'94 here) and of course was
> off limits for copying. Even copying bootlegs was discouraged.
But that's what makes now different.
> As fansubs became more prelevant, trading was still largely restricted to
> clubs. This meant that you had to pretty much be involved with a club at
> some level in order to get access to the fansubbed stuff. Since the
> club's officers were also the ones still following the pledge, it also
> meant that enforcing the fansubbing rules was mostly followed. Mostly.
> Of course, bootlegs of fansubs still showed up at cons. And I'm sure many
> older fans can remember watching fansubs that stuck something like "If you
> paid for this tape, you were ripped off!" in the middle of the episode.
It really can't be that far in the past -- I think I still saw some
two or three years ago.
> It was also at this time that the club grew from 50-60 to 300-400. This
And that was basically the issue -- it wasn't an advocacy for a
legitimate anime industry anymore. It basically was "FREE ANIME!!!!"
That was why your group exploded six-fold, even apparently ten years
before the Internet took that to another level. That was why Fanime
has tripled in the last 5 years into a $15,000,000 convention. That's
why AX has doubled in the same time frame -- even though the
legitimate industry is toast.
> made it impossible to copy tapes for everyone. So I and some other
> officers came up with the idea of the tape party. You'd bring your own
> VCR and blank tapes over, and we'd figure out how to daisy chain all the
> VCRs together, and copying would commence. We'd watch stuff, or play
> board games all day while cranking through 5 or 6 tapes. Since different
> people had different stuff, sometimes you were the source, sometimes you
> were recipient. The leaders thought it was brilliant - the weren't on the
> hook for copies anymore. It worked out well.
The problem with that is the sheer number of people involved.
> It worked out TOO well. Next thing I knew, there were larger and larger
> tape parties - including one legendary session that supposedly lasted an
> entire month, resulting in the host losing his girlfriend, and almost
> getting thrown out of his apartment by his super-annoyed, and now
> EX-anime-fan roommate. Well, while such distribution systems are
> efficient, they also make it impossible to control what gets copied.
A _MONTH_-long tape party??? Eugh...
> At this time (~95-96) commercial anime is only on VHS, and the sub/dub
> flamewars are being waged on usenet and every other anime-board across
> the country. Things like Ranma were still being distributed, with folks
> using the excuse that Viz's translations left a lot to be desired, and who
> knew if Viz would ever finish releasing the series?
Not realizing that that decision could've been based on those tape
parties.
> These were issues I never resolved for myself. I had certainly seen
> instances of a show coming to the US, only to be altered, censored,
> rewritten, or totally butchered. If the US release was total garbage, did
> that make it OK to continue releasing the fansubs? At what point could
> you consider the English and Japanese versions to be different programs?
> One extreme would be Card Captor Sakura, which was unarguably totally
> lobotomized into Card Captors. But on the other hand, Dragon Ball Z made
> it through mostly unscathed, with references to "another world" and the
> immortal "HFIL" not withstanding.
The problem I have with that concept is that I would have to think
that, should censorship be necessary, that even that has to be cleared
with the Japanese.
> I graduated in 96 and left the university anime club behind. While I
> and the other outgoing officers tried to impress the pledge onto the new
> generation of leadership, it was clear that things were changing. The
> pledge was still there, but the advocacy part wasn't really being paid
> attention to anymore. Tape parties were virtually another club activity,
> despite our earlier efforts to conscicously tell each other "this is not a
> club activity. this is a private meeting of friends..." But that just
> got morphed into becoming an almost secret society within the club -
> definitely not what was intended...
... which the Internet completely took to another level.
> Even then, the fansubbers have gotten much more aggressive. If an episode
> airs in Japan today, it'll be fansubbed and on the internet within a
> couple of days. The US companies can't keep up with that rate.
Basically, now the US companies almost have to pre-license stuff and
get the stuff to the Net immediately (which see the new One Piece and
FMA). The ONLY reason that FMA:B is probably going to get a dub (if
Navarre doesn't collapse first) is because of the popularity of the
FMA dub.
> While there's more anime available in the US than ever before it's not
> quite the utopia that fans like I had dreamt about from the late 80s and
> early 90s. And bone-headed decisions about how shows are brought to the
> US isn't helping any.
Those "bone-headed decisions", though, have to take into account your
(collective) conduct toward the material. Otherwise, my question as
to what the product actually is applies.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> On a wide scale, I'd like it to be abolished completely because I do not
> believe fans as a whole (and fansubbers as a whole) will adhere to even the
> most rudimentary ethics, which I believe is borne out by the history of the
> practice.
It also, by my observation, has created a fanbase which is threatening
to the industry on many levels (including to those who show up at
cons). Additionally, if fansubs were wiped out, would you have an
audience for anime that is 15% of the current anime audience? I say
no.
Now, I believe that should've happened already, which is one of the
reasons I do believe that the industry needed to go RIAA on the
fanbase -- the fans are as much a problem as the subbers. Most anime
fans wouldn't touch this genre if not for stealing it.
> Personally, I have no particular issue with downloading fansubs to see an
> episode or two of a show to see if you like it (for the case of movies and
> very short series, I think trailers suffice and thus fansubs are
> unnecessary). I think watching any beyond that gives you the moral
> obligation to buy a legitimate copy of the show, be that a North American
> copy or Japanese copy. For instance, I have a set of fansubs of Sailor Moon
> Stars; I also own the legitimate Japanese Sailor Stars DVDs, since it was
> never released in English.
The problem being that you still have to answer what I believe is THE
central question in this argument:
What is the product?
If the product is the animation itself, you have TWO copies.
> If you are committed to buying the series as soon as it is available, I have
> no issue with continuing to watch the fansubs, since they will exist whether
> you watch them or not. After seeing one episode of Elfen Lied I knew I would
> buy the series the instant it came out (as indeed I did), and therefore had
> no problems watching the rest of it fansubbed while waiting. I'd probably be
> more careful nowadays, since some series' are starting to come out sub-only
> and I generally refuse to buy those releases.
... because of rampant fansubbing. It is no longer practical for a
company to spend $30-35K/episode licensing it and $50-90K an episode
dubbing/ADRing it if they know they have no functional chance of
getting the money back.
I mean, the big problem here is that (for the basis of deciding which
series to license) "American buzz" on an anime series == (equals and
is defined by) fansubbing. But fansubbing, as it stands now,
basically takes the financial worth of the product and obliterates it
to zero. So now, either through same-day subbed release on legal
channels (FMA:B, for one example), or by giving the anime away a
couple months later (half of Ouran dubbed, all of it subbed on two
legal Funimation free Internet media), why are we buying in the first
place?
> I also do not have a problem with watching fansubs of shows that are simply
> unavailable through legitimate means (as was the case with Five Star Stories
> for awhile, for instance), with the caveat that should that situation change
> (as I think it did for 5SS), you are then morally obligated to purchase a
> copy immediately.
I used to play that game too -- in fact, that was one of the reasons I
kept pestering people to get those Kaleido Star OVA's licensed and
released. But there was a problem: There's no market for them if
it's clear that fansubs made the parent series a big fat egg laid by
the companies.
Mike
B Sellers
TV advertisements.
later
bliss
Brian Henderson
> You aren't the only the one to have this view, so please don't feel I'm
> picking on you personally.
Not a problem.
> This is where the "try before you buy" argument starts to run into problems...
I'm not trying before I buy, any more than watching any television show
is "trying before I buy".
> TV is a separate issue. Shows on TV have been paid for, both through
> licensing fees paid by the broadcaster, and by advertisers. Whether or
> not you liked the show well enough to buy it is inconsequential.
But it's not, that's the thing. TV shows have been paid for no matter
where they first aired. Commercial television is paid for by
advertisers who want to get their products in front of the viewing
audience. It doesn't matter if those advertisers are in the United
States, Canada, Japan or Zimbabwe. DVDs, particularly TV series DVDs,
are a secondary market, a keepsake for people who really enjoyed the
show and want to be able to watch it again and again. Just because
someone went out and spent money to license a show doesn't obligate me,
as the consumer, to pay them for it, especially if they do a bad job at
putting out the product.
> However, if you watched the whole show via fansubs, and then that show got
> licensed...well, then what? Do you buy the show as a way of retroactively
> paying for having watched the fansubs? Some make it an absolute and say
> they always have to. But by saying it has to be a good product, it leaves
> way too much wiggle room for you to back out one way or another.
No because the fansubs weren't "paid" for in the first place, any more
than watching something on TV is "paid" for. They put it over the
airwaves (or the cable system or whatever) for all to see. It's a
slightly different case for pay-channels, but a similar argument can be
made. I have no legal, moral or ethical requirement to pay them because
I sat down and watched something that they sent my way without strings
attached. By the same token, if they showed it in Japan and I
downloaded it here, I still have no obligation to a third-party licencer
simply because they threw money at the Japanese producers.
> Part of the problem is that we're arguably talking about 2 separate
> products here. The fansubs are based on the Japanese version, which isn't
> always the version that ends up in the US. The first attempt at One Piece
> is a good example of how you can end up with 2 different versions of the
> same program. So what happens there? The version you WANT to buy - the
> original Japanese version with English subtitles - doesn't exist. And it
> doesn't make sense to be forced into buying whatever ends up in America
> simply because it's now in English. So..do you buy the original Japanese
> version instead? Personally that doesn't quite work either even though
> Japanese anime DVDs tend to look much better than their American
> counterparts...but then again they also cost 2-3x as much as well.
Then it doesn't exist, so what? As a consumer, I am the sole arbiter of
what I want to buy at a price I want to pay. I don't have to "settle"
for something just because nothing better is available.
> Unfortunately, it's also way too easy to just say "well, I wouldn't have
> bought this show anyways but since I already downloaded it, I might as
> well watch/keep it..."
There are lots of things on American television that I watch that
there's no way in hell I'd ever buy. Do you have a point?
> No, I don't have a good answer here. I really wish that American
> companies wouldn't butcher anime series, or at least release an uneditted
> version alongside the the butchered version. This is what we got with
> Cardcaptors/Card Captor Sakura, even though the CCS is only available with
> subs and no dub whatsoever. Of course this only splits up an already
> small market into even smaller segments, making it even harder to make a
> profit or even break even on that release.
Since I'm a sub-only guy, I really don't want dubs on my DVDs. That's
how they did it on Go Lion, that's why I bought the whole set. Had they
put dubs on it, or the Voltron soundtrack or whatever, it's entirely
possible they would have lost the sale.
> This argument only works if you don't buy the products in question, but
> then also don't download or watch the fansubs. At all. As soon as you
> download the fansubs, from the company's point of view, you become a sale
> lost to piracy - regardless of your personal reasons for not buying the US
> licensed product. It also helps to actually write a letter (physical
> letter) explaining to the company why you will not be buying their
> product. Anyone can send email, but it takes a bit of extra effort, and
> the cash for the stamp, to send a letter. Be polite, use proper grammar
> and spelling.
Sorry, but fuck the company's point of view. I owe nothing to the
company, no matter how much they might wish I did. They can only
legitimately consider it a lost sale if they can prove they ever had the
sale to begin with and they simply cannot do so. My refusal to buy the
crappy One Piece DVDs is no more a lost sale than the fact that I didn't
buy Twilight on DVD. It's not a lost sale, it's an unearned one.
The problem is that most of these companies are using a business model
that stopped working back in the 70s and 80s. The world has moved on,
there are greater requirements for success today and that includes
embracing new technologies. It means that if you want to beat the
fansubbers, you can't wait a couple of years to put out DVDs, you need
to beat them at their own game, getting episodes online, subtitled,
within a week of their Japanese airing. Can't do it, don't whine to me.
Amazingly enough, when they do it, IT MAKES MONEY!
Brian Henderson
> Ken Arromdee wrote:
>
>> In article <4a15edce$0$5388$607e...@cv.net>,
>> Arnold Kim <arno...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>> Here's my rule- if I watch more than two episodes fansubbed, I have to buy
>>> at least that much when it becomes available.
>> Here's a suggestion, which admittedly I'm not offering completely
>> seriously:
>>
>> Give the company whatever money you would have if it was a licensed television
>> program. If being on TV would have gotten you to buy a DVD set, then buy
>> the DVD set. If being on TV would have led you to skip the commercials
>> and watch the show without giving the creators any revenue, then you are not
>> morally obliged to give the creators any more revenue than that with a
>> fansub. (Of course, no fair cheating by saying "I would have skipped
>> commercials" when you actually wouldn't have.)
>
> the advertised product afterwards?
I don't watch any commercials whatsoever no matter what I watch, nor do
I have any legal, ethical or moral obligation to. Advertisers pay to
get their product before willing eyes, my eyes are not willing.
Brian Henderson
> If you have a DVR and skip all commercials (and then don't buy the DVD),
> then you've already decided that it's okay to watch a show with no revenue
> whatsoever going to the creators. If so, why are you so concerned that the
> creators get some revenue from you watching a fansub?
But *I* never agreed to pay them to begin with. They have no contract
that I signed where I agreed to put money in their pockets or watch
their advertisements. If that was their plan, they should have aired it
pay-per-view so that only those who actually paid up front got to see it.
Brian Henderson
> The problem with that is that you are dealing with a fanbase with NO
> ethics at all. None with respect to each other, and fewer with
> respect to the industry. Witness one convention last year where at
> least two female VA's were sexually assaulted and third was threatened
> with same.
Wrong, they just don't have *YOUR* ethics. Stop exaggerating.
> I mean, the whole concept might've worked in a fanbase which
> understands the costs of the medium and the purpose of what fansubs
> really are _supposed to be_. Now, however, they (the fanbase) have
> total control over the industry, and the ability (and the desire!) to
> choke it to death -- slowly.
Now you're saying you get to dictate what fansubs are "supposed to be"?
Fansubs have been around long before almost anyone was licensing
anything for U.S. release.
The U.S. anime industry lives or dies based on how well it can produce
salable products that potential customers are willing to pay for. The
industry doesn't deserve to survive just because you like it, it has to
earn it's keep and so far, it's done a poor job of it. There are a lot
of reasons behind it, of course, but there seems to be a serious "I
spent money licensing this, therefore you people owe me" mentality and
that just doesn't fly.
> There can be no more downloading for me. Not after what I've seen the
> downloading do to the anime in general, the types and themes of anime
> being put out today, and watching what little enjoyment I would get
> out of the anime demimonde ripped out by a bunch of punks (not
> necessarily RAAM -- I see them in the "real world" too) who would much
> rather get it for free and deny everyone else the enjoyment they would
> get out of anime (hence, the downloaders, in this regard, win _twice_)
> otherwise.
Then don't, no skin off anyone's ass no matter what you do. Don't want
to download, don't do it. Are you expecting a parade?
LBRa...@gmail.com
> Farix <dhstran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> At this time (~95-96) commercial anime is only on VHS, and the sub/dub
> flamewars are being waged on usenet and every other anime-board across
> the country. Things like Ranma were still being distributed, with folks
> using the excuse that Viz's translations left a lot to be desired, and who
> knew if Viz would ever finish releasing the series?
When mailing lists still existed, I was on a mailing list for
fans of dubbed anime and one time we were visited by a young woman who
was definitely anti-dub. She seemed to believe that it was immoral to
buy a commercial sub if there was a commercial dub because you were
indirectly supporting dubbing anime, which was a crime against God and
man. Therefore most anime should be consumed as fansubs because most
anime at the time had commercial dubbed and subbed releases.
> These were issues I never resolved for myself. I had certainly seen
> instances of a show coming to the US, only to be altered, censored,
> rewritten, or totally butchered. If the US release was total garbage, did
> that make it OK to continue releasing the fansubs? At what point could
> you consider the English and Japanese versions to be different programs?
> One extreme would be Card Captor Sakura, which was unarguably totally
> lobotomized into Card Captors. But on the other hand, Dragon Ball Z made
> it through mostly unscathed, with references to "another world" and the
> immortal "HFIL" not withstanding.
Back then and still now, practically any anime that airs on
television, especially non-late night cable, is going to be edited and
censored to one extent or another because of the something I like to
call the Add 6 years law. Basically, to get the appropriate target age
for an audience outside of Japan, you add six years to the Japanese
target age. In Japan, Inuyasha was aimed at the late elementary school
or early middle school audience but in the US it had to air late at
night on Adult Swim and the target audience were people in their late
teens or early twenties. There are many other factors that contribute
to the butchering of shows like CCS but this is the primary one.
>
> As anime showed up on DVD, I like everyone else who was in clubs at the
> same time, rushed to replace our aging, illegal VHS libraries with shiny,
> new, legitimate DVDs. During this time, fansubbed tapes gave way to
> digisubs. This essentially let the cat out of the bag, and destroyed any
> hope of trying to control distribution. Even if there are fansubbers out
> there who stick to a strict code of behavior, such as stopping work on and
> distribution of a series once it's licensed, it doesn't matter because so
> many other people don't follow. Worse still, you no longer needed to be
> connected to a club in order to get stuff. This is both good and bad.
> Good - wider distribution. Bad - these people aren't being told the
> pledge, and even those who knew it, I fear weren't following it anymore.
The problem with digisubs is that they did not directly evolve
out of the fansub movement but rather came from the all information is
free people, the people who saw and see no problem with distributing
any type of copyrighted media. Even if digisubbing evolved from the
fansub community, the internet would make it hard to enforce the
fansub ethics.
> The US market should take a look at Taiwan's manga market and take some
> lessons. There are companies in Taiwan that purchase the rights to manga
> titles, and produce translated volumes within a few months of the Japanese
> version hitting the shelves in Japan. Yeah, while bootleg comics and
> scanlations, are going to exist their window is much smaller. Compare
> this to the time it takes for anime show to appear in Japan until it shows
> up on DVD in the US, and you're looking at years. That's a long time for
> your potential pool of sales to wander off or lose interest due to
> digisubs. While I know that it takes more time and effort to translate an
> anime show than a manga, there's no excuse why the companies are looking
> at such a long delay between the Japanese and English releases.
>
I actually inquired about this at an industry panel during an
anime convention. I asked why aren't the American and Japanese
companies working closely together to ensure faster releases out of
Japan. I was told that the American companies are interested in such a
system but the Japanese companies are not for the most part. This was
a year or so ago. Its starting to change. Rinne is being released on
the web simultaneously with the Japanese version. FMA: Brotherhood is
airing on the web subbed, two weeks after it airs in Japan. More
companies are releasing anime straight in boxed set form with no
individual releases to ensure faster release of series in the US, so
things are changing.
LBRa...@gmail.com
>
> No, I don't have a good answer here. I really wish that American
> companies wouldn't butcher anime series, or at least release an uneditted
> version alongside the the butchered version.
Butchering is only a problem these days if a company is trying to
get a show aired on American television on a non-late night time slot
because of the different standards of what is appropriate in American
and Japanese television. Most anime released commercially is non-
butchered, unless you consider any dub a butcher or any ambiguous
translation choice, like including or excluding honorifics, you do not
approve a butcher.
This is what we got with
> Cardcaptors/Card Captor Sakura, even though the CCS is only available with
> subs and no dub whatsoever. Of course this only splits up an already
> small market into even smaller segments, making it even harder to make a
> profit or even break even on that release.
Nelvana was too ambitious when they tried to air CCS on
television. CCS is a rather sweet show but by American standards, it
has many things that would raise the eyebrows of many American
parents. Things like Tomoyo's feelings for Sakura or the Sakura-
Syaoran-Yukito love triangle are more than a little iffy in American
cartoons.
Brian Henderson
> When mailing lists still existed, I was on a mailing list for
> fans of dubbed anime and one time we were visited by a young woman who
> was definitely anti-dub. She seemed to believe that it was immoral to
> buy a commercial sub if there was a commercial dub because you were
> indirectly supporting dubbing anime, which was a crime against God and
> man. Therefore most anime should be consumed as fansubs because most
> anime at the time had commercial dubbed and subbed releases.
Mailing lists are still out there, BTW. :)
I don't necessarily agree that dubs are unholy, I can't stand them
myself, I never watch them, I suppose there might be a couple out there
I could stomach, but I don't care to find out. Every time I flip on the
Funimation Channel, it's enough to make me want to retch.
That said though, for people who like them, more power to them. I think
everyone has a right to like what they like and not like what they don't
like. However, that doesn't mean that I want to buy DVDs where I'm
paying more, directly or indirectly, for bad dubs and bad voice actors.
> Back then and still now, practically any anime that airs on
> television, especially non-late night cable, is going to be edited and
> censored to one extent or another because of the something I like to
> call the Add 6 years law. Basically, to get the appropriate target age
> for an audience outside of Japan, you add six years to the Japanese
> target age. In Japan, Inuyasha was aimed at the late elementary school
> or early middle school audience but in the US it had to air late at
> night on Adult Swim and the target audience were people in their late
> teens or early twenties. There are many other factors that contribute
> to the butchering of shows like CCS but this is the primary one.
That's still an excuse though and I don't buy excuses. Yes, televised
anime, like pretty much anything, is held to certain standards by the
FCC. That doesn't mean that when you release it on DVD, you keep the
censorship. If I'm watching a show and it's got profanity in Japanese,
I want that profanity in the English translation, period. I don't want
them to censor the cigarettes, I don't want them to "edit things for my
protection", I want the show, as presented in Japan, no alterations
except for a subtitle track. Shouldn't be that hard to achieve, should it?
> I actually inquired about this at an industry panel during an
> anime convention. I asked why aren't the American and Japanese
> companies working closely together to ensure faster releases out of
> Japan. I was told that the American companies are interested in such a
> system but the Japanese companies are not for the most part. This was
> a year or so ago. Its starting to change. Rinne is being released on
> the web simultaneously with the Japanese version. FMA: Brotherhood is
> airing on the web subbed, two weeks after it airs in Japan. More
> companies are releasing anime straight in boxed set form with no
> individual releases to ensure faster release of series in the US, so
> things are changing.
I've heard that before and while I'm not sure how accurate it is,
assuming for the moment that it is, U.S. companies need to play
hard-ball and only buy from companies that are willing to do what's
needed to make sales in the U.S. If they choose not to play ball, they
don't get licensing fees. We'll see who survives and who doesn't. Bad
business decisions don't fly on either side of the Pacific.
It's a fact that companies COULD do what it takes to beat the
fansubbers, they COULD put them up at the same time for download at,
say, .99 an episode on iTunes or whatever and they'd make a bundle, but
they're too busy trying to cling to an old business model that doesn't
work anymore. There was a time when American theatrical movies came out
a year or more after they left the theater, now they're putting them out
faster and faster. Even Wolverine, that came out in theaters this
month, is coming out on DVD in July. I think Star Trek is the same way.
Blade
"Brian Henderson" <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:JcJRl.161$9L2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> That said though, for people who like them, more power to them. I think
> everyone has a right to like what they like and not like what they don't
> like. However, that doesn't mean that I want to buy DVDs where I'm paying
> more, directly or indirectly, for bad dubs and bad voice actors.
Then why on earth would you watch something with Japanese voice acting?
(ba-dum-kish!)
-
Blade
Antonio E. Gonzalez
<eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>Dave Baranyi wrote:
>> "Farix" <dhstr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:gv440n$hvq$1...@news.parasun.com...
>>
>>>I wonder if we can keep this topic from turning into a general flame
>>>war. Oh well, it still anime related an interesting topic
>>
>> Yes you can stop it from becoming a flamewar post - you can stop posting
>> troll-bait topics.
>>
>> This topic was done to death years ago, and no one cares nowadays other than
>> trolls. You may as well start a "Subs versus Dubs" or a "VHS versus DVD"
>> thread.
>>
>> Do us all a favor in the future - okay?
>
>What he said--
>That was "Gee, Darky hasn't been around here in a while..." begging to
>the point of crawling.
>
>Complete with, "Gee, hope this doesn't start a big bad flamewar for
>months on end--Uh, you *are* gonna start a flamewar over this,
>aren'tcha....guys?....Little one??"
>
>Derek Janssen (we'd say "Get used to disappointment", but getting used
>to obsolescence would seem to be higher on the list)
>
The big problem for Darky is that just about everyone has killfiled
him, so it's not like he's gonna get a response; hell, most of us
won't even know he posted!
--
- ReFlex76
darkst...@gmail.com
<BrianL.Hender...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The problem with that is that you are dealing with a fanbase with NO
> > ethics at all. None with respect to each other, and fewer with
> > respect to the industry. Witness one convention last year where at
> > least two female VA's were sexually assaulted and third was threatened
> > with same.
>
> Wrong, they just don't have *YOUR* ethics. Stop exaggerating.
No, they don't have any ethics at all -- and note I take that far
beyond just the copyright issues.
Unless you feel it right to grab the breasts of any anime convention
guest you can get your hands on...
> > I mean, the whole concept might've worked in a fanbase which
> > understands the costs of the medium and the purpose of what fansubs
> > really are _supposed to be_. Now, however, they (the fanbase) have
> > total control over the industry, and the ability (and the desire!) to
> > choke it to death -- slowly.
>
> Now you're saying you get to dictate what fansubs are "supposed to be"?
No, but there was a tolerated purpose for them (by the companies who
*WOULD* get to say that, or they'd have been cut off while the process
could be cut off) which has been far exceeded in this day and age.
Read the post that actually had a good idea about what a tape tree was
supposed to do again. (That is, until the first wave of the "FREE
ANIME!" crowd took a group of 40 and made it 200.)
> Fansubs have been around long before almost anyone was licensing
> anything for U.S. release.
And you figure it better that no one license anything for US release
-- that the fans could do a better job, right?
> The U.S. anime industry lives or dies based on how well it can produce
> salable products that potential customers are willing to pay for. The
And that ability, *regardless of the product*, becomes nil in the
present argument.
Why? Because the process which allowed the first wave of people to
obsolete the tape trees like the ones mentioned have now created a
situation many orders of magnitude larger.
You cannot create a "saleable product" of ANY kind when the actual
financial worth of said product is zero.
> industry doesn't deserve to survive just because you like it, it has to
> earn it's keep and so far, it's done a poor job of it.
We agree, but for different reasons. The anime fandom needs to be
about 1/10 of what it is now.
Only when the fandom is reduced to the paying fandom (and 1/10 of
present might well be _generous_ in that regard) can products become
functionally saleable to keep the industry afloat.
For example, the city I live in just lost its last dedicated anime
shop. There is no longer a dedicated anime/manga/associated-
merchandise store in our entire town. Why? There's no need to buy
the product anymore when it can be cleanly stolen off the Internet.
This is why an RIAA-like tactic would've been the only solution for
anime. The _fans_ created this environment, and those fans need to
either pay up or leave.
> There are a lot
> of reasons behind it, of course, but there seems to be a serious "I
> spent money licensing this, therefore you people owe me" mentality and
> that just doesn't fly.
Fuck you if you believe that.
No, seriously, Brian.
They spent money licensing this, and, therefore, you _DO_ owe them if
you wish to see the product legally. And if you choose to see it
illegally, you _DO_ owe them even more!
That's the attitude of the present anime fan which makes me openly
wish ill against you, as a fandom.
Brian, THEY _PAID_ FOR THAT RIGHT. They _paid_ for the right to
dictate what means you have to see the goddamned product.
If you don't think you owe them, then GTFO of that product. ALL OF
IT.
And I'll give you another one, and this one you really won't like:
You owe that to every anime fan who wants good anime. Now, most of
them basically either have to steal whatever anime or are basically
resigned to a bunch of junk because of a bunch of nerds and punks too
damned cheap to give the anime companies what they are due.
> > There can be no more downloading for me. Not after what I've seen the
> > downloading do to the anime in general, the types and themes of anime
> > being put out today, and watching what little enjoyment I would get
> > out of the anime demimonde ripped out by a bunch of punks (not
> > necessarily RAAM -- I see them in the "real world" too) who would much
> > rather get it for free and deny everyone else the enjoyment they would
> > get out of anime (hence, the downloaders, in this regard, win _twice_)
> > otherwise.
>
> Then don't, no skin off anyone's ass no matter what you do. Don't want
> to download, don't do it. Are you expecting a parade?
You missed the rest of the point -- no fucking surprise.
You've taken the joy of anime out of me, you sorry-assed pig.
There's NOTHING out there right now for me to even want to _watch_ for
free online legally of the new shit.
NOTHING. Why??
See above. Punks and assholes too cheap to care.
Mike (Yeah, I guess it got to the flame war. *dons asbestos*)
Brian Henderson
Because theirs is actually done well? Because they've got professional
voice actors, opposed to the homeless people we find to do ours?
Brian Henderson
> No, they don't have any ethics at all -- and note I take that far
> beyond just the copyright issues.
>
> Unless you feel it right to grab the breasts of any anime convention
> guest you can get your hands on...
So you've got the weird idea that *ALL* anime fans grab random breasts?
You've got a pretty skewed view of anime fans.
> No, but there was a tolerated purpose for them (by the companies who
> *WOULD* get to say that, or they'd have been cut off while the process
> could be cut off) which has been far exceeded in this day and age.
It doesn't really matter what these companies might say, you don't get
to simply assign a purpose because it's one you like.
> Read the post that actually had a good idea about what a tape tree was
> supposed to do again. (That is, until the first wave of the "FREE
> ANIME!" crowd took a group of 40 and made it 200.)
Way back in the day, and I'm talking the late 70s/early 80s, it had
nothing to do with "FREE ANIME!" it was all about not having any access
to anime at all. People went to a monthly meeting where they got to
watch grainy traded copies of non-subtitled anime from Japan and
everyone chained their VCRs together so they'd be able to watch it at
home and share it with others. A few people, back in the days when
subtitling equipment was hard to come by, managed to fansub a few titles
because the people who actually understood the language were pretty sick
and tired of doing running commentary every time the local club aired
the program.
> And you figure it better that no one license anything for US release
> -- that the fans could do a better job, right?
The fact is, the fans *ARE* doing a better job, they always have. They
get 10x more titles out to the fans, 10x faster. I'd say that's a
rousing success.
> And that ability, *regardless of the product*, becomes nil in the
> present argument.
Except that it doesn't.
> Why? Because the process which allowed the first wave of people to
> obsolete the tape trees like the ones mentioned have now created a
> situation many orders of magnitude larger.
Irrelevant, it's still done for the same reason, for the love of the
shows and the desire for those who can translate to let those who cannot
know what's going on.
> You cannot create a "saleable product" of ANY kind when the actual
> financial worth of said product is zero.
American DVDs sell just fine although there are plenty of copies you can
download online any day of the week. Why? Because American companies
put out their product fast (within a few months of theatrical release),
inexpensively (virtually no single-disc movie costs more than $20, full
seasons of TV shows are rarely more than $40) and with tons of extras.
You're not interested in where your argument falls apart, you're just
singing the same old tired tune.
> Only when the fandom is reduced to the paying fandom (and 1/10 of
> present might well be _generous_ in that regard) can products become
> functionally saleable to keep the industry afloat.
You'll never reduce the fandom to just those willing to pay, sorry. Try
living in the real world. In *ANY* fandom on the planet, the majority
of people aren't going to be the ones shelling out the big bucks. The
majority of Star Trek fans are the ones watching the shows for free on
TV. You've apparently got no clue how fandoms work. No wonder you're
so fucked up.
> For example, the city I live in just lost its last dedicated anime
> shop. There is no longer a dedicated anime/manga/associated-
> merchandise store in our entire town. Why? There's no need to buy
> the product anymore when it can be cleanly stolen off the Internet.
Wow, didn't know you could steal non-media collectibles off the
Internet! You learn something new every day!
> This is why an RIAA-like tactic would've been the only solution for
> anime. The _fans_ created this environment, and those fans need to
> either pay up or leave.
In case you haven't noticed, the RIAA-tactics have utterly failed in
every case they've been used. So sure, go ahead and use failed tactics
which you think will magically work just because you wish they would.
What color is the sky in your world?
> Fuck you if you believe that.
Geez, what a fucking prick you are.
> They spent money licensing this, and, therefore, you _DO_ owe them if
> you wish to see the product legally. And if you choose to see it
> illegally, you _DO_ owe them even more!
It doesn't matter to me if I see the product "legally" or not, to be
honest. What matters to me is whether or not the product they produce
is something I want to support. If it is, I will support it, legal or
otherwise. If it is not, I will not, legal or otherwise.
> That's the attitude of the present anime fan which makes me openly
> wish ill against you, as a fandom.
>
> Brian, THEY _PAID_ FOR THAT RIGHT. They _paid_ for the right to
> dictate what means you have to see the goddamned product.
Wrong, they paid for the right to try. They did not pay for the right
to succeed.
> If you don't think you owe them, then GTFO of that product. ALL OF
> IT.
Grow up, shitstain.
> You owe that to every anime fan who wants good anime. Now, most of
> them basically either have to steal whatever anime or are basically
> resigned to a bunch of junk because of a bunch of nerds and punks too
> damned cheap to give the anime companies what they are due.
Good anime exists regardless of whether or not you can get it off the
shelf at your local Best Buy. Are you really that far off your rocker
that you think otherwise?
> You've taken the joy of anime out of me, you sorry-assed pig.
Good, stop reading the group so we don't have to read your
self-righteous ranting. Just how goddamn shallow are you that you'll
let what OTHER PEOPLE DO chase you out of the fandom? Are you that
pathetic? Move out of your mother's basement already.
> There's NOTHING out there right now for me to even want to _watch_ for
> free online legally of the new shit.
Adios then, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
> See above. Punks and assholes too cheap to care.
And fuck you, you self-righteous asshat.
The Wanderer
> darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> The problem with that is that you are dealing with a fanbase with
>> NO ethics at all. None with respect to each other, and fewer with
>> respect to the industry. Witness one convention last year where at
>> least two female VA's were sexually assaulted and third was
>> threatened with same.
>
> Wrong, they just don't have *YOUR* ethics. Stop exaggerating.
Please don't feed the troll.
I do enjoy seeing people argue with him, but it does get kind of old. So
far you're the only person who's actually replied to him in this thread,
and I had in fact hoped that no one would do that at all...
--
The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.
Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.
Blade
"Brian Henderson" <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:MdNRl.150$Cc1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
HOMELESS PEOPLE? OH GOD LOL SO WITTY~~~!
You will not get me into one of those debates. I was merely making a snarky
remark about the fanboy love for Japanese voice acting, hence the rimshot.
-
Blade
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On May 22, 7:08 pm, Brian Henderson
> <BrianL.Hender...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
>> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> The problem with that is that you are dealing with a fanbase with NO
>>> ethics at all. None with respect to each other, and fewer with
>>> respect to the industry. Witness one convention last year where at
>>> least two female VA's were sexually assaulted and third was threatened
>>> with same.
>> Wrong, they just don't have *YOUR* ethics. Stop exaggerating.
>
> No, they don't have any ethics at all -- and note I take that far
> beyond just the copyright issues.
>
> Unless you feel it right to grab the breasts of any anime convention
> guest you can get your hands on...
>
Harlan Ellison is an anime downloader?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
>
>
> "Brian Henderson" <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:MdNRl.150$Cc1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
>> Blade wrote:
>>> "Brian Henderson" <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in
>>> message news:JcJRl.161$9L2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>>>> That said though, for people who like them, more power to them. I
>>>> think everyone has a right to like what they like and not like what
>>>> they don't like. However, that doesn't mean that I want to buy DVDs
>>>> where I'm paying more, directly or indirectly, for bad dubs and bad
>>>> voice actors.
>>>
>>> Then why on earth would you watch something with Japanese voice acting?
>>>
>>> (ba-dum-kish!)
>>
>> Because theirs is actually done well? Because they've got
>> professional voice actors, opposed to the homeless people we find to
>> do ours?
>
> HOMELESS PEOPLE? OH GOD LOL SO WITTY~~~!
If they just PAID them better they could AFFORD houses.
sanjian
> I wonder if we can keep this topic from turning into a general flame
> war. Oh well, it still anime related an interesting topic
Just can't help yourself, can you?
Troll-baiting is trolling, in its own right. *plonk*
Inu-Yasha
"Brian Henderson" <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:JcJRl.161$9L2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>> When mailing lists still existed, I was on a mailing list for
>> fans of dubbed anime and one time we were visited by a young woman who
>> was definitely anti-dub. She seemed to believe that it was immoral to
>> buy a commercial sub if there was a commercial dub because you were
>> indirectly supporting dubbing anime, which was a crime against God and
>> man. Therefore most anime should be consumed as fansubs because most
>> anime at the time had commercial dubbed and subbed releases.
>
> Mailing lists are still out there, BTW. :)
>
> I don't necessarily agree that dubs are unholy, I can't stand them myself,
> I never watch them, I suppose there might be a couple out there I could
> stomach, but I don't care to find out. Every time I flip on the
> Funimation Channel, it's enough to make me want to retch.
>
> That said though, for people who like them, more power to them. I think
> everyone has a right to like what they like and not like what they don't
> like. However, that doesn't mean that I want to buy DVDs where I'm paying
> more, directly or indirectly, for bad dubs and bad voice actors.
>
the soundtrack and watch the show rather than having to read sub-titles.
That said, I think the best anime released in the US has Japanese and
English soundtracks, with English subtitles, and allows you to choose what
you want to watch/listen to, that way one issue should make everyone happy.
On a side note, I will say that for many of the anime released, I wish I
understood Japanese better, and the voice actors/actresses in Japan usually
sound much better for the part than the English ones, though not all English
voice actors/actresses are bad. Sometimes I think it is part of the
translation loss from Japanese to English. A good example to me is Red
Garden, the Japanese voice actresses just sounded right/better, especially
when it came to the singing.
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^
Blade
"sanjian" <mun...@vt.edu> wrote in message
news:PbidnUj0_8xPYorX...@posted.internetamerica...
Why is starting a thread about fansubs troll-baiting? Even I don't start a
flamewar every time it's mentioned. As for the idiot, any thread is an
invitation for him to jump in and strew feces around.
-
Blade
sanjian
Valid question. However, starting one so soon after a reconet fansub debate
ended, knowing that Darky will jump in, just smacks of "I'm bored, so I'm
going to inflict Darky on y'all again." Granted, I may just be so sick of
the people who feed the troll "because it amuses me" that I'm overreacting.
But, damn, enough is enough. And, yes, while any thread can be an
invitation to Darky, it's like the difference between walking around in
Manhattan and getting mugged vs. walking around in a back alley in the Bonx
and getting mugged. In one case, it's just something that happens. In the
other, it's the natural result of bad decisions.
Or I could just be a grumpy bastard who needs a piece of ass.
Brian Henderson
> HOMELESS PEOPLE? OH GOD LOL SO WITTY~~~!
>
> You will not get me into one of those debates. I was merely making a
> snarky remark about the fanboy love for Japanese voice acting, hence the
> rimshot.
However, it's still true for the most part. Now if you look at, say,
Disney when they got voice actors for Miyazaki films, they actually
hired credible actors to do the voice work. Viz, Funimation, 4Kids...
they all get people who generally can't get an acting job to save their
lives and it shows in their work. Most of them use silly voices with
very little inflection, it's like they're just standing there in the
booth reading their lines, trying to get out of there with their pay so
they can go get drunk. There's no life to the work, no feeling, it's
just a job and they want to get done and go home.
darkst...@gmail.com
<BrianL.Hender...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > No, they don't have any ethics at all -- and note I take that far
> > beyond just the copyright issues.
>
> > Unless you feel it right to grab the breasts of any anime convention
> > guest you can get your hands on...
>
> So you've got the weird idea that *ALL* anime fans grab random breasts?
> You've got a pretty skewed view of anime fans.
Skewed by what I witness and read about them, especially over the last
couple of years.
It's one of the reasons that I fully state out and up front that the
only reason these shows exist anymore is because of the economic
impact to the hotels and to the tax coffers and to all of that.
I've talked to more than a few people over the last two years about
this subject -- most of the people I speak to who are not directly
involved with the shows don't really want them around, Brian.
Why? Don't just take my word for it: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/chicks-on-anime/2008-09-30
(The relevant discussion probably starts on page 2 of 3, but there it
is for you.)
I've talked to more than one person I have had a heated discussion
with with respect to my own pet peeves who has all but formally
admitted that the cons are out of control.
> > No, but there was a tolerated purpose for them (by the companies who
> > *WOULD* get to say that, or they'd have been cut off while the process
> > could be cut off) which has been far exceeded in this day and age.
>
> It doesn't really matter what these companies might say, you don't get
> to simply assign a purpose because it's one you like.
THEY PAID FOR THAT PRIVILEGE!
You don't _get_ that. They paid for that privilege, bitch!!
Your sanctimonious, self-entitled bullshit won't fly with me. They
paid for the privilege to limit the access to the material --
otherwise, they just threw their money away as a definition of trying
to license the stuff.
The bone-headed decision would not, then, have been _over_-licensing,
but licensing at all!
And that they paid for the privilege is the _only_ way that the
companies (here or in Japan) are going to put out anime which I like.
If that is too much to ask, then, frankly, perhaps 10 more police cars
need to be called.
> > Read the post that actually had a good idea about what a tape tree was
> > supposed to do again. (That is, until the first wave of the "FREE
> > ANIME!" crowd took a group of 40 and made it 200.)
>
> Way back in the day, and I'm talking the late 70s/early 80s, it had
> nothing to do with "FREE ANIME!" it was all about not having any access
> to anime at all.
That was the first 40 or so (read his post again). I'm talking about
taking that 40 and making it 200.
I'm talking about taking an event which should've been one day and
turning it into a MONTH because of the demand.
> People went to a monthly meeting where they got to
> watch grainy traded copies of non-subtitled anime from Japan and
> everyone chained their VCRs together so they'd be able to watch it at
> home and share it with others.
As I said, that was the first 40. What exploded it once was when
people got the idea they could do this without recompense or
consequence. Now, the Internet has blown up the meaningful model.
> > And you figure it better that no one license anything for US release
> > -- that the fans could do a better job, right?
>
> The fact is, the fans *ARE* doing a better job, they always have. They
> get 10x more titles out to the fans, 10x faster. I'd say that's a
> rousing success.
So, basically blow up the entire US industry, then -- and take out all
the studios in Japan reliant on it. Good move there, buck-shot.
Have you ever considered what takes all that time? You'd have to take
out all the dubs then. No more dubs. If you even fast-track dubbing,
you're talking six months just to go through that process -- post-
licensing.
You'd pretty much have to end the concept of _licensing_ and
negotiation as it presently stands.
You're calling for the end of the anime industry in the United States
because you're too goddamned cheap or arrogant to understand that the
material has (or, thanks to you, _had_) monetary value.
> > And that ability, *regardless of the product*, becomes nil in the
> > present argument.
>
> Except that it doesn't.
Bullshit. AND YOU KNOW IT.
Most every person with any real neutrality on the subject agrees with
Justin Sevakis' State of the Industry from 18 months ago.
I'll give you two relevant quotes:
"I understand the panic going on. I've seen the numbers myself.
They're terrifying. It's not uncommon now for a DVD to not even make
back the cost of the dubbing, let alone the license fee. When only a
few years ago it was commonplace for shows to get licensed for $70,000
or more per episode, today a show can be licensed for less than half
of that. And they're still not profitable."
""I do not blame the fans who download with impunity and don't buy a
thing. Their attitudes, while damaging, are simply a reflection of the
value of anime, which these days, is about $0.00.
That's right. Anime that has been fansubbed is effectively worthless.
It's being given away for free."
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2007-11-25
> > Why? Because the process which allowed the first wave of people to
> > obsolete the tape trees like the ones mentioned have now created a
> > situation many orders of magnitude larger.
>
> Irrelevant, it's still done for the same reason, for the love of the
> shows and the desire for those who can translate to let those who cannot
> know what's going on.
You are so fucking full of shit, I don't even know where to _start_
with you.
If they loved the shows, if they loved the anime that much, they'd
_stop this bullshit_ and actually pay for the damned material -- and
those who can't would be GONE from the fandom, as a matter of direct
consequence.
Brian, do you believe that the rest of us are that stupid not to see
that the "love of the shows" requires there to be shows out there that
we would love?? And the conduct of the fansubbers and downloaders and
thieves basically has ripped that from fans like myself.
> > You cannot create a "saleable product" of ANY kind when the actual
> > financial worth of said product is zero.
>
> American DVDs sell just fine although there are plenty of copies you can
> download online any day of the week. Why? Because American companies
> put out their product fast (within a few months of theatrical release),
No. They sell just fine because there is _enforcement_ of the
copyright. Not as much as I would like, but at least an attempt is
made to enforce the copyright.
Also, the fact is that the process is not such that they have to
negotiate through two or more channels to get it from creator to end
product. Look at the DVDs you speak of: Most of them are done _by
the studios who made the film themselves_.
Unless you want anime to become import-from-Japan only, that's not
possible here.
> inexpensively (virtually no single-disc movie costs more than $20, full
> seasons of TV shows are rarely more than $40) and with tons of extras.
There are not enough paying fans to justify those kinds of prices, and
you damned well know it.
A 13-episode anime, to Americanize and license it, is a million-dollar
operation. Read the first Sevakis quote again.
> You're not interested in where your argument falls apart, you're just
> singing the same old tired tune.
It doesn't fall apart -- unless you want to charge that the entire US
industry has been one big fat collusion of a fraud, and that the
process doesn't cost over a million dollars for 13 eps in America.
I'm waiting for someone to actually make that claim.
> > Only when the fandom is reduced to the paying fandom (and 1/10 of
> > present might well be _generous_ in that regard) can products become
> > functionally saleable to keep the industry afloat.
>
> You'll never reduce the fandom to just those willing to pay, sorry. Try
Then it's done and you know it. You're already seeing the
ramifications of it. Soon, there will be little functional need to
even license anime over here, and, soon after that, there will be no
more anime made.
Do you realize that the Japanese market fell 20% last year? They
don't even give the American numbers from last year.
> living in the real world. In *ANY* fandom on the planet, the majority
> of people aren't going to be the ones shelling out the big bucks. The
> majority of Star Trek fans are the ones watching the shows for free on
> TV. You've apparently got no clue how fandoms work. No wonder you're
> so fucked up.
I have quite a clue on how fandoms work -- the arrogant, self-centered
bitches which populate them, even doubly so.
> > For example, the city I live in just lost its last dedicated anime
> > shop. There is no longer a dedicated anime/manga/associated-
> > merchandise store in our entire town. Why? There's no need to buy
> > the product anymore when it can be cleanly stolen off the Internet.
>
> Wow, didn't know you could steal non-media collectibles off the
> Internet! You learn something new every day!
I'm sure you fuckers have found a way to pull that off too.
> > This is why an RIAA-like tactic would've been the only solution for
> > anime. The _fans_ created this environment, and those fans need to
> > either pay up or leave.
>
> In case you haven't noticed, the RIAA-tactics have utterly failed in
> every case they've been used.
If that's the case, then the industries which rely on them to survive
will ALL die.
(Yes, this means no more American music industry, which would be even
a happier day for many American music fans than the end of the anime
industry would probably be for many anime fans.)
The only value for a product that a product has is one enforced by
law. Otherwise, I'll just take that PS3 and those four games and
those peripherals, thank you very much.
> So sure, go ahead and use failed tactics
> which you think will magically work just because you wish they would.
> What color is the sky in your world?
There's no other logistical choice but to fold -- the whole damn
industry.
> > Fuck you if you believe that.
>
> Geez, what a fucking prick you are.
*bow* And that's not even the full extent of my feelings for scum
like you.
> > They spent money licensing this, and, therefore, you _DO_ owe them if
> > you wish to see the product legally. And if you choose to see it
> > illegally, you _DO_ owe them even more!
>
> It doesn't matter to me if I see the product "legally" or not, to be
> honest. What matters to me is whether or not the product they produce
> is something I want to support. If it is, I will support it, legal or
> otherwise. If it is not, I will not, legal or otherwise.
You completely miss the point, as usual. THEY BOUGHT THAT RIGHT.
They bought the right for absolute control of the product and its
distribution.
> > That's the attitude of the present anime fan which makes me openly
> > wish ill against you, as a fandom.
>
> > Brian, THEY _PAID_ FOR THAT RIGHT. They _paid_ for the right to
> > dictate what means you have to see the goddamned product.
>
> Wrong, they paid for the right to try. They did not pay for the right
> to succeed.
That is the central basis of copyright. You are, then, basically
lobbying for the end of the concept of copyright.
> > If you don't think you owe them, then GTFO of that product. ALL OF
> > IT.
>
> Grow up, shitstain.
YOU grow up. I'm fucking tired of having anime gutted to the point of
perversion because of people like you.
> > You owe that to every anime fan who wants good anime. Now, most of
> > them basically either have to steal whatever anime or are basically
> > resigned to a bunch of junk because of a bunch of nerds and punks too
> > damned cheap to give the anime companies what they are due.
>
> Good anime exists regardless of whether or not you can get it off the
> shelf at your local Best Buy. Are you really that far off your rocker
> that you think otherwise?
No, and you're wrong on top of it. Sevakis again:
"To make matters worse, as budgets have fallen the producers have
compensated by making more shows that appeal to very specific niche
audiences. (Moe, anyone?)"
You think it's much accident that a lot of this shit garbage which
approximates anime has come out now, where it looks like much of it
has degraded years in both animation quality and in story-telling?
> > You've taken the joy of anime out of me, you sorry-assed pig.
>
> Good, stop reading the group so we don't have to read your
> self-righteous ranting. Just how goddamn shallow are you that you'll
> let what OTHER PEOPLE DO chase you out of the fandom? Are you that
> pathetic? Move out of your mother's basement already.
They can't put out good anime unless they can actually pay for it,
bitch. And that requires YOU paying for it.
> > There's NOTHING out there right now for me to even want to _watch_ for
> > free online legally of the new shit.
>
> Adios then, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
I'd punch you if you said that to my face.
Mike
LBRa...@gmail.com
<BrianL.Hender...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
> Blade wrote:
> > HOMELESS PEOPLE? OH GOD LOL SO WITTY~~~!
>
> > You will not get me into one of those debates. I was merely making a
> > snarky remark about the fanboy love for Japanese voice acting, hence the
> > rimshot.
>
> However, it's still true for the most part.
Um, no it is not. While the early anime dubs tended to be sub
par because the licensing companies lacked the money to hire competent
voice actors or because American voice actors were not used to the
comparative seriousness of anime, the licensing companies and American
voice actors started getting professional around the mid-nineties and
by the end of the nineties, dubbing standards were pretty high in most
licensing companies. Japanese voice actors might be better on average
when compared to Americans because there are more of them and because
there is more work for them, it does not mean that dubbing sucks. I
find that the Japanese voice actors use more stock voices than
American voice actors so most characters of a similar type sound the
same in Japanese. More Americans try to have the characters sound
relatively unique rather than like a stock character.
Brian Henderson
> You haven't ever hread a German dub. I prefer the US-releases, and buy
> Germans only, when there is no other rational joice. That happend
> twice in the last 5 years.
Heh, no, but I can believe it. That's why I hate localization, etc. If
I wanted to be watching an American show, I'd watch an American show, I
assume the same is true of a German show. I know I'm watching a
Japanese show, I don't want anyone to pretend otherwise and alter it so
it makes sense to an American audience.
darkst...@gmail.com
> On 05/22/2009 10:08 PM, Brian Henderson wrote:
>
>
> >> The problem with that is that you are dealing with a fanbase with
> >> NO ethics at all. None with respect to each other, and fewer with
> >> respect to the industry. Witness one convention last year where at
> >> least two female VA's were sexually assaulted and third was
> >> threatened with same.
>
> > Wrong, they just don't have *YOUR* ethics. Stop exaggerating.
>
> Please don't feed the troll.
>
> I do enjoy seeing people argue with him, but it does get kind of old. So
> far you're the only person who's actually replied to him in this thread,
> and I had in fact hoped that no one would do that at all...
You've got two options:
Have me driven from the Internet with legal or lethal force
or
r.a.a.m.moderated
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
No, seriously, you are the kind of arrogant cunt which has completely
destroyed anime.
You don't seem to get that the only way that your kind of idea would
work is that NO anime is ever licensed for distribution over here,
and, moreover, that this would mean that the Japanese companies
reliant on American money (and, therefore, _sales_) would all die out.
You've already seen it with Gonzo basically on it's deathbed, with
only a bunch of 10 year-olds in panties to save it.
You obviously don't care if the US market dies (you're already not a
dub guy to begin with, and want to see that arm of it die doubly), and
you care little more (if that!) about the Japanese side of things
either.
Fuck the company's point of view? They paid to have that point of
view, bitch. They paid for the _right_ to have that point of view.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
<BrianL.Hender...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
> However, it's still true for the most part. Now if you look at, say,
> Disney when they got voice actors for Miyazaki films, they actually
> hired credible actors to do the voice work. Viz, Funimation, 4Kids...
> they all get people who generally can't get an acting job to save their
> lives and it shows in their work. Most of them use silly voices with
> very little inflection, it's like they're just standing there in the
> booth reading their lines, trying to get out of there with their pay so
> they can go get drunk. There's no life to the work, no feeling, it's
> just a job and they want to get done and go home.
Have you ever seen some of these people in action, bitch???
I'll have you know that it is the Vics and the Lauras and the
Travises, etc. which are the only things keeping me around anime at
this point.
You could basically say that I'm no longer a fan of the anime itself,
but more of the talents involved.
And you're going to spit all over that??
Mike
Farix
I guess for some, bringing up any controversial topic is trolling. But
we shouldn't shy away from such topics simply because they are
controversial. Because remaining silence is the worst thing we can do.
But I did pitch the topic to allow everyone to talk about their personal
ethics. And even though one party has predictably belted out "fansubs
bad!" in an attempt to derail the topic. but we can ignore him, can't we?
Farix
Rob Kelk
>On May 23, 3:09=A0pm, Brian Henderson
><BrianL.Hender...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
>> Blade wrote:
>> > HOMELESS PEOPLE? OH GOD LOL SO WITTY~~~!
>>
>> > You will not get me into one of those debates. I was merely making a
>> > snarky remark about the fanboy love for Japanese voice acting, hence th=
>e
>> > rimshot.
>>
>> However, it's still true for the most part. =A0
>
> Um, no it is not. While the early anime dubs tended to be sub
>par because the licensing companies lacked the money to hire competent
>voice actors or because American voice actors were not used to the
>comparative seriousness of anime, the licensing companies and American
>voice actors started getting professional around the mid-nineties and
>by the end of the nineties, dubbing standards were pretty high in most
>licensing companies.
It's still hit-and-miss in almost every company, though. Disney's the
exception, but Disney's got the cash *and* the expertise to do it right
all the time.
Even Geneon (who started the trend toward excellent dubs with the "El
Hazard" OAVs) can't produce a consistently-good dub. Listen to the
"Nanoha" dub, if you can, for proof...
<snip>
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
Rob Kelk
<BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
>darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
<snip>
>Wrong, they just don't have *YOUR* ethics. Stop exaggerating.
Mikey has ethics? I thought he just had entrenched prejudices.
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"When a person can no longer laugh at himself, it is time for others
to laugh at him."
- Thomas Szasz, "The Second Sin", 1973
Blade
"Brian Henderson" <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ZRXRl.292$9L2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Yeah... dude, you don't know jack shit about the American voice acting
industry. You can not like it all you want, but kindly do not run off your
ignorant mouth insulting hundreds of people whose livelihood you know
nothing about.
-
Blade
Blade
"Farix" <dhstr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gva3sd$5i2$1...@news.parasun.com...
> Blade wrote:
> But I did pitch the topic to allow everyone to talk about their personal
> ethics. And even though one party has predictably belted out "fansubs
> bad!" in an attempt to derail the topic. but we can ignore him, can't we?
Hey! I did not!
...
OH!
Uh, yeah, of course. ;p
-
Blade
Brian Henderson
> Skewed by what I witness and read about them, especially over the last
> couple of years.
Severely skewed then, it's like thinking all comic book fans don't
shower and live in their mother's basement. You might see that kind of
behavior at a convention, but the overwhelming majority of fans would
never be caught dead at a convention.
> It's one of the reasons that I fully state out and up front that the
> only reason these shows exist anymore is because of the economic
> impact to the hotels and to the tax coffers and to all of that.
There was a reason, once upon a time, for conventions, I don't know that
there really is as much today. There was a time when the only way to
buy some things was to find it at a convention, then the Internet came
along and you can get anything, any time you want it. Now, conventions
are just a place to go to have a good time, kind of like Shriner's
conventions and we all know how wild those get.
> I've talked to more than one person I have had a heated discussion
> with with respect to my own pet peeves who has all but formally
> admitted that the cons are out of control.
Then don't go. Seems like a simple enough solution.
> THEY PAID FOR THAT PRIVILEGE!
>
> You don't _get_ that. They paid for that privilege, bitch!!
Try again, they did nothing of the sort, any more than an advertiser who
pays to put an ad on television paid for your eyes to watch it. Stop
being an asshole.
> And that they paid for the privilege is the _only_ way that the
> companies (here or in Japan) are going to put out anime which I like.
> If that is too much to ask, then, frankly, perhaps 10 more police cars
> need to be called.
Ooh, poor baby, because people aren't going to go buy overpriced crap,
everyone won't bow down and kiss your ass and put out things you want.
Cry me a fucking river.
> That was the first 40 or so (read his post again). I'm talking about
> taking that 40 and making it 200.
But it doesn't matter if it's 40 or 200 or 200,000, it remains the same.
> As I said, that was the first 40. What exploded it once was when
> people got the idea they could do this without recompense or
> consequence. Now, the Internet has blown up the meaningful model.
That was the first 40, then through massive tape trading, it went to
200, then 2000, then 20,000 and so on. The Internet has just made it
faster and easier, it hasn't fundamentally changed anything.
> So, basically blow up the entire US industry, then -- and take out all
> the studios in Japan reliant on it. Good move there, buck-shot.
No more than we blow up the entire US automotive industry. They need to
learn that there is a fundamentally new paradigm brought on by the
Internet. The world today isn't what it was 10 years ago and
businesses, *ALL* businesses, need to adjust to that fact. The problem
is, most businesses are stuck in the past and don't deal with the new
paradigm and that is why they fail, not piracy.
> Have you ever considered what takes all that time? You'd have to take
> out all the dubs then. No more dubs. If you even fast-track dubbing,
> you're talking six months just to go through that process -- post-
> licensing.
Fine, no more dubs. I hate dubs. But the reality is, dubs aren't what
the fansubbers are competing against, it's the dubs. American licensees
can release dubbed DVDs down the road somewhere and people who want to
watch dubs can watch those. The reality is, American companies need to
license these shows before they ever air in Japan so they can have the
scripts before they show, so they can have translations and subbed
episodes online within a week of their Japanese airing, just like the
fansubbers do.
> You'd pretty much have to end the concept of _licensing_ and
> negotiation as it presently stands.
What's currently being done obviously doesn't work, so yes, it has to
adapt and evolve to the current reality.
> You're calling for the end of the anime industry in the United States
> because you're too goddamned cheap or arrogant to understand that the
> material has (or, thanks to you, _had_) monetary value.
The end of the current incarnation, maybe. But if the current
incarnation doesn't work, it deserves to go away.
> Bullshit. AND YOU KNOW IT.
Hardly, but I'm sure we're all really happy you're here to tell us what
we know.
> Most every person with any real neutrality on the subject agrees with
> Justin Sevakis' State of the Industry from 18 months ago.
Read it, responded to it, thought he was entirely wrong.
> I'll give you two relevant quotes:
>
> "I understand the panic going on. I've seen the numbers myself.
> They're terrifying. It's not uncommon now for a DVD to not even make
> back the cost of the dubbing, let alone the license fee. When only a
> few years ago it was commonplace for shows to get licensed for $70,000
> or more per episode, today a show can be licensed for less than half
> of that. And they're still not profitable."
>
> ""I do not blame the fans who download with impunity and don't buy a
> thing. Their attitudes, while damaging, are simply a reflection of the
> value of anime, which these days, is about $0.00.
>
> That's right. Anime that has been fansubbed is effectively worthless.
> It's being given away for free."
Lots of things are given away for free, that doesn't make them
worthless, it makes them unprofitable.
> You are so fucking full of shit, I don't even know where to _start_
> with you.
How about wiping your own ass before you start with someone else's.
> If they loved the shows, if they loved the anime that much, they'd
> _stop this bullshit_ and actually pay for the damned material -- and
> those who can't would be GONE from the fandom, as a matter of direct
> consequence.
One doesn't need to BUY things to enjoy them, sorry. Are you really
that dense? I like sunsets, I don't pay for them. There are all kinds
of American television shows that I watched and enjoyed this year that I
didn't pay a penny for. Why can't you get this through your head?
> Brian, do you believe that the rest of us are that stupid not to see
> that the "love of the shows" requires there to be shows out there that
> we would love?? And the conduct of the fansubbers and downloaders and
> thieves basically has ripped that from fans like myself.
It simply requires finding a new way to make money on your product, the
old ways simply do not work anymore and you're clinging desperately to
outmoded, failed business models because you're too damn lazy and stupid
to find new ones.
Can't say I'm surprised.
> No. They sell just fine because there is _enforcement_ of the
> copyright. Not as much as I would like, but at least an attempt is
> made to enforce the copyright.
Have you looked at any of the torrent sites? There's no enforcement,
millions upon millions of people can download almost any movie that's
ever been put out, any time they want. Are you that dumb?
> Also, the fact is that the process is not such that they have to
> negotiate through two or more channels to get it from creator to end
> product. Look at the DVDs you speak of: Most of them are done _by
> the studios who made the film themselves_.
So? They need to find a way to streamline the process. Just because
they're not doing it now doesn't mean they can't.
> Unless you want anime to become import-from-Japan only, that's not
> possible here.
I wouldn't mind that in the least, to be honest. I've always said the
Japanese could subtitle their own shows in 10 languages and put them
online for anyone who wanted to pay for them to download and completely
cut out the American middleman. That's entirely fine with me. More
money for the people who actually MAKE the product.
> There are not enough paying fans to justify those kinds of prices, and
> you damned well know it.
Then they go out of business. Oh well. Don't hear me crying, do you?
> A 13-episode anime, to Americanize and license it, is a million-dollar
> operation. Read the first Sevakis quote again.
Read it, he's still wrong.
> It doesn't fall apart -- unless you want to charge that the entire US
> industry has been one big fat collusion of a fraud, and that the
> process doesn't cost over a million dollars for 13 eps in America.
I'm saying that the American industry has been led around by the nose by
the Japanese who know they can make almost any demands they want, ask
any amount they want and US companies will pay it. Nobody ever heard of
negotiation. If the Japanese companies want to sell their product,
they're going to have to come to the table and be reasonable. If
they're not... then the US companies should NOT BUY IT!
> Then it's done and you know it. You're already seeing the
> ramifications of it. Soon, there will be little functional need to
> even license anime over here, and, soon after that, there will be no
> more anime made.
The fandom isn't done, just the US anime companies who want to profit
from it. The fandom was here long before the companies were and will be
here long after they're dead.
> Do you realize that the Japanese market fell 20% last year? They
> don't even give the American numbers from last year.
Did you realize we're in a worldwide recession? Or are you that stupid?
> I have quite a clue on how fandoms work -- the arrogant, self-centered
> bitches which populate them, even doubly so.
Which only proves you haven't got a clue, but you go on ranting like an
asshole, you're fun to laugh at.
> I'm sure you fuckers have found a way to pull that off too.
Ooh, conspiracy! It was the Illuminati! And the Bilderberger Group too!
> If that's the case, then the industries which rely on them to survive
> will ALL die.
Nobody relies on them but the big-money record companies who are having
the same problem that the anime industry is, they are not adapting to
the new paradigm, they're just fighting to keep the old one around.
They'll die and good riddance to them.
> *bow* And that's not even the full extent of my feelings for scum
> like you.
You know everyone hates you, right? Even your mother.
> You completely miss the point, as usual. THEY BOUGHT THAT RIGHT.
> They bought the right for absolute control of the product and its
> distribution.
No, they bought the right to produce the product in the U.S., they did
not buy anyone's loyalty, anyone's purchase power or anything else. If
that's what you really think, you're a bigger idiot than I thought.
>> Adios then, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
>
> I'd punch you if you said that to my face.
You're more than welcome to try, asshole.
Brian Henderson
> Um, no it is not. While the early anime dubs tended to be sub
> par because the licensing companies lacked the money to hire competent
> voice actors or because American voice actors were not used to the
> comparative seriousness of anime, the licensing companies and American
> voice actors started getting professional around the mid-nineties and
> by the end of the nineties, dubbing standards were pretty high in most
> licensing companies. Japanese voice actors might be better on average
> when compared to Americans because there are more of them and because
> there is more work for them, it does not mean that dubbing sucks. I
> find that the Japanese voice actors use more stock voices than
> American voice actors so most characters of a similar type sound the
> same in Japanese. More Americans try to have the characters sound
> relatively unique rather than like a stock character.
Turn on the Funimation Channel, it's still true right this second. The
voice acting in pretty much anything they air is crap. My wife turned
on Busou Renkin to see what it was like since she enjoyed the Japanese
version and couldn't make it through 5 minutes.
Brian Henderson
> You've got two options:
>
> Have me driven from the Internet with legal or lethal force
>
> or
>
> r.a.a.m.moderated
Or just keep laughing at your stupid posts like we're all doing now.
You're a laughing stock and you seem proud of it.
Brian Henderson
> On Sat, 23 May 2009 02:08:53 GMT, Brian Henderson
> <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
> <snip>
>> Wrong, they just don't have *YOUR* ethics. Stop exaggerating.
>
> Mikey has ethics? I thought he just had entrenched prejudices.
Nah, he's a 2-year old with an Internet connection, but I was giving him
the benefit of the doubt.
My bad.
Brian Henderson
> Yeah... dude, you don't know jack shit about the American voice acting
> industry. You can not like it all you want, but kindly do not run off
> your ignorant mouth insulting hundreds of people whose livelihood you
> know nothing about.
Except, you know, you're wrong. Just because people make money off of
something doesn't make them good at it. Hell, even Reba West made money
for Robotech and they had to get her drunk to get her to sing.
Try again.
Blade
"Brian Henderson" <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:zv1Sl.358$9L2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
I actually work in the acting industry. I also know several North American
voice actors.
What the fuck do you know, you pissant little fanboy?
-
Blade
Brian Henderson
> I actually work in the acting industry. I also know several North
> American voice actors.
>
> What the fuck do you know, you pissant little fanboy?
Who gives a crap what you do? Maybe you're that stupid annoying voice
actor that everyone hates who has a vastly overblown impression of
themselves.
Bet you are.
Blade
"Brian Henderson" <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uU1Sl.363$9L2...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
I'm not a voice actor. So you're wrong.
See, here's the thing, Brian. I don't really care about your Wapanese
adoration of the Japanese voice acting industry. It's not to my tastes, but
despite my low opinion of Japanese voice acting on the whole, it's pretty
much an entirely subjective thing. So is your not liking English voice
acting, which is why I didn't make any response to that beyond a
tongue-in-cheek comment.
However, when you actually insult the people who make a living in the
industry, then you get my dander up. You don't know jack shit about the
industry. You don't know how hard people work in it. You do not have any
fucking qualification to say they don't care (because most of them do), or
that they're doing it because they can't do "real" acting (because many of
them have plenty of legit acting credits), or they they do it to go get
drunk (which they might, but you sure as hell wouldn't know). You are wrong.
Not only are you wrong, you're being insulting to an entire industry of
largely hard-working people who are devoted to their craft, many of whom are
passionate anime fans who work very hard to put out a good product, all
because you don't like the concept of English dubbing and think the best way
to express this is to personally insult the people who work in the industry.
That makes you an asshole, Brian. Stop being an asshole.
-
Blade
darkst...@gmail.com
The thing is, they are.
The difference (until Brian began his bleating) is that I tried to
demonstrate to you _why_ they are bad. Since you wanted (I perceived)
to have an intelligent discussion on the matter, I was more than
willing to accomodate.
Then, Brian showed himself to be a sanctimonious jackass, and, well, I
see six responses by him and this is not going to be fun.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> Yeah... dude, you don't know jack shit about the American voice acting
> industry. You can not like it all you want, but kindly do not run off your
> ignorant mouth insulting hundreds of people whose livelihood you know
> nor care nothing about.
I added two words to your comment, Blade -- to accentuate and add to
your point.
He's openly hostile toward that industry.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
<BrianL.Hender...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Skewed by what I witness and read about them, especially over the last
> > couple of years.
>
> Severely skewed then, it's like thinking all comic book fans don't
> shower and live in their mother's basement. You might see that kind of
> behavior at a convention, but the overwhelming majority of fans would
> never be caught dead at a convention.
The overwhelming majority of fans also wouldn't be caught dead buying
the material either, and those two, at least in part, might be
related.
Let's just say the information on what I said is out there and is
true.
(And could your understanding that the overwhelming majority of fans
not wanting to be caught dead at a convention be, at least in part,
because of what I said and have shown?)
> > It's one of the reasons that I fully state out and up front that the
> > only reason these shows exist anymore is because of the economic
> > impact to the hotels and to the tax coffers and to all of that.
>
> There was a reason, once upon a time, for conventions, I don't know that
> there really is as much today. There was a time when the only way to
> buy some things was to find it at a convention, then the Internet came
> along and you can get anything, any time you want it. Now, conventions
> are just a place to go to have a good time, kind of like Shriner's
> conventions and we all know how wild those get.
They were also a place where people could come and watch anime and the
like, and that has no real need to continue neither. Now, it's just a
place for a bunch of kids to run amok and a bunch of the rest of us to
give the people in our lives a little time off from us.
> > I've talked to more than one person I have had a heated discussion
> > with with respect to my own pet peeves who has all but formally
> > admitted that the cons are out of control.
>
> Then don't go. Seems like a simple enough solution.
That would be fine by my end. (I've gone from about 10 cons a year to
maybe 2 or 3...)
But I'm talking more as an institutional point -- that the parties
_running and securing the cons_ are saying the same thing. It's one
of the reasons I put the discussion from "Chicks on Anime" link on the
post you responded to.
> > THEY PAID FOR THAT PRIVILEGE!
>
> > You don't _get_ that. They paid for that privilege, bitch!!
>
> Try again, they did nothing of the sort, any more than an advertiser who
> pays to put an ad on television paid for your eyes to watch it. Stop
> being an asshole.
No, and that's the difference you choose to neglect, scorn, and spit
at.
An advertiser is just paying for the right to receive the audience
which the show brings. In fact, it could be openly said (and often
is!) that the sole purpose for commercial television (or radio!) is to
bring an audience to the commercials.
That doesn't fly here, Brian. The commercials compensate the network
for the creation of the program (which is why, now, you see US shows
cancelled after one episode if the ratings suck that bad). The anime
industry (especially the US side) does not work completely on that
principle. (And, in fact, the US side doesn't work on that at all.)
When Funimation or Bandai or Viz take a license, they gain the
absolute right of distribution in all means covered by the license.
THEY PAY FOR THAT RIGHT.
And you spit all over that right.
> > And that they paid for the privilege is the _only_ way that the
> > companies (here or in Japan) are going to put out anime which I like.
> > If that is too much to ask, then, frankly, perhaps 10 more police cars
> > need to be called.
>
> Ooh, poor baby, because people aren't going to go buy overpriced crap,
> everyone won't bow down and kiss your ass and put out things you want.
> Cry me a fucking river.
The price point is a representation of how many people are willing to
buy so that they can make enough money to produce future product and
cover present costs.
Therefore, I have no argument with even BVUSA's price point, since
they were probably closer to the idea of how many people were even in
the pool who wished to pay for anime.
Therefore, not overpriced. Just your arrogance showing through again.
> > That was the first 40 or so (read his post again). I'm talking about
> > taking that 40 and making it 200.
>
> But it doesn't matter if it's 40 or 200 or 200,000, it remains the same.
No, and that's where we part company to the point of acrimony.
You openly want to see the entire process die because it doesn't suit
your needs, when the entire existence of the process requires that the
material you steal is paid for.
> > As I said, that was the first 40. What exploded it once was when
> > people got the idea they could do this without recompense or
> > consequence. Now, the Internet has blown up the meaningful model.
>
> That was the first 40, then through massive tape trading, it went to
> 200, then 2000, then 20,000 and so on. The Internet has just made it
> faster and easier, it hasn't fundamentally changed anything.
Yes it has, as a matter of scale. When it was 40 -> 200 and the like,
the product could still be fundamentally saleable.
Now, forget it. You took the entire sales model, shat all over it,
and flushed it down the toilet.
And, worse yet, you are proud of that fact.
> > So, basically blow up the entire US industry, then -- and take out all
> > the studios in Japan reliant on it. Good move there, buck-shot.
>
> No more than we blow up the entire US automotive industry. They need to
Bad analogy. 2/3 of it is basically gone already. The ripple effect
of losing GM and Chrysler might well take out Ford. Try again.
> learn that there is a fundamentally new paradigm brought on by the
> Internet. The world today isn't what it was 10 years ago and
> businesses, *ALL* businesses, need to adjust to that fact. The problem
Fuck that. The Internet is basically saying, in that regard, that all
entertainment is free and there's no need for the concept of
"intellectual property". Hence, basically, you are asking anime (and
all IP-based entertainment) to operate on donations.
You're an idiot if you think that model can work to the better part of
$100K an episode.
> is, most businesses are stuck in the past and don't deal with the new
> paradigm and that is why they fail, not piracy.
The anime industry could not survive in your "new paradigm". It won't
survive in your "new paradigm". The most you might get is what Sea
Wasp has proposed -- doujinshi-level individual works which basically
get peddled not unakin to what artists do at Artist Alleys all over
the con spectrum.
> > Have you ever considered what takes all that time? You'd have to take
> > out all the dubs then. No more dubs. If you even fast-track dubbing,
> > you're talking six months just to go through that process -- post-
> > licensing.
>
> Fine, no more dubs. I hate dubs. But the reality is, dubs aren't what
> the fansubbers are competing against, it's the dubs. American licensees
> can release dubbed DVDs down the road somewhere and people who want to
> watch dubs can watch those. The reality is, American companies need to
> license these shows before they ever air in Japan so they can have the
> scripts before they show, so they can have translations and subbed
> episodes online within a week of their Japanese airing, just like the
> fansubbers do.
Some are trying, but you still need to enforce the copyright. Look at
the people who are already still fansubbing Brotherhood, _even though
it is being shown in close-to-real-time on Funimation's legal stream!_
They -- don't -- care. It's no longer that they feel they are owed
anime -- they feel they OWN anime.
Because, by one week of the Japanese airing, you've probably got most
people who aren't afraid of being sued out of their shorts already
having fansubbed it within 2 days or so of the airing.
Try again, Space Cadet.
> > You'd pretty much have to end the concept of _licensing_ and
> > negotiation as it presently stands.
>
> What's currently being done obviously doesn't work, so yes, it has to
> adapt and evolve to the current reality.
There would be no such thing, in the "current reality". There would
be no licensing. If anything, there would be no US business at all,
and all studios reliant on such would die.
(In fact, heads of several major Japanese studios have proposed
exactly this end, very soon.)
But the fact is that no money-based model can survive in your "current
reality". None.
> > You're calling for the end of the anime industry in the United States
> > because you're too goddamned cheap or arrogant to understand that the
> > material has (or, thanks to you, _had_) monetary value.
>
> The end of the current incarnation, maybe. But if the current
> incarnation doesn't work, it deserves to go away.
Because of your fucking arrogance? And you think I'm a tool??
You have made it an insult to me to have bought any anime I've bought
in the last several years (especially the likes of Ouran (both volumes
bought), in which, by six months along, we've got all the series
subbed and half of the dub series on the legal streams and on YouTube.
That is an insult to me as a paying customer. And it's because of
people like you.
> > Bullshit. AND YOU KNOW IT.
>
> Hardly, but I'm sure we're all really happy you're here to tell us what
> we know.
No, I'm here to tell you what you DON'T (care to) know.
> > Most every person with any real neutrality on the subject agrees with
> > Justin Sevakis' State of the Industry from 18 months ago.
>
> Read it, responded to it, thought he was entirely wrong.
Because you have long-since spat on the industry and pissed on it's
gravesite.
> > I'll give you two relevant quotes:
>
> > "I understand the panic going on. I've seen the numbers myself.
> > They're terrifying. It's not uncommon now for a DVD to not even make
> > back the cost of the dubbing, let alone the license fee. When only a
> > few years ago it was commonplace for shows to get licensed for $70,000
> > or more per episode, today a show can be licensed for less than half
> > of that. And they're still not profitable."
>
> > ""I do not blame the fans who download with impunity and don't buy a
> > thing. Their attitudes, while damaging, are simply a reflection of the
> > value of anime, which these days, is about $0.00.
>
> > That's right. Anime that has been fansubbed is effectively worthless.
> > It's being given away for free."
>
> Lots of things are given away for free, that doesn't make them
> worthless, it makes them unprofitable.
Here's the problem: When they are being given away for free as anime
has been the last several years, of what worth is the product?
This is why I continually demand an answer from pigs like you as to
what the product is. If it's the anime, then the sole purpose of
copyright and license is to defend the financial value of that
product. Otherwise, it is worth NOTHING.
> > You are so fucking full of shit, I don't even know where to _start_
> > with you.
>
> How about wiping your own ass before you start with someone else's.
Not only that, but I wash it too. Then I know the shit I smell is
yours.
> > If they loved the shows, if they loved the anime that much, they'd
> > _stop this bullshit_ and actually pay for the damned material -- and
> > those who can't would be GONE from the fandom, as a matter of direct
> > consequence.
>
> One doesn't need to BUY things to enjoy them, sorry. Are you really
> that dense? I like sunsets, I don't pay for them. There are all kinds
> of American television shows that I watched and enjoyed this year that I
> didn't pay a penny for. Why can't you get this through your head?
Because neither of those models exist in the same realm we are talking
about here. You continue to blatantly and flagrantly ignore the fact
that the license-holders and creators have ABSOLUTE RIGHT to determine
who, when, where, and how the product is consumed. If you liken the
concept of anime to TV shows and sunsets, you are essentially stating
that copyright does not exist in any way, shape, form, or fashion.
(because, at that point, there is nothing to defend)
> > Brian, do you believe that the rest of us are that stupid not to see
> > that the "love of the shows" requires there to be shows out there that
> > we would love?? And the conduct of the fansubbers and downloaders and
> > thieves basically has ripped that from fans like myself.
>
> It simply requires finding a new way to make money on your product, the
> old ways simply do not work anymore and you're clinging desperately to
> outmoded, failed business models because you're too damn lazy and stupid
> to find new ones.
There is no new way to make money on the product. The fansubbers will
have already had means (and an established fan-base) to cut off all
means of that at the pass. They have won, in that scenario.
(And, if you look beyond the shit you are spewing, you will see even
the US companies essentially bowing to their masters.)
> > No. They sell just fine because there is _enforcement_ of the
> > copyright. Not as much as I would like, but at least an attempt is
> > made to enforce the copyright.
>
> Have you looked at any of the torrent sites? There's no enforcement,
> millions upon millions of people can download almost any movie that's
> ever been put out, any time they want. Are you that dumb?
There's plenty of enforcement, at least enough to allow the process to
continue to be saleable -- unlike anime.
I already said I think they can do even better.
> > Also, the fact is that the process is not such that they have to
> > negotiate through two or more channels to get it from creator to end
> > product. Look at the DVDs you speak of: Most of them are done _by
> > the studios who made the film themselves_.
>
> So? They need to find a way to streamline the process. Just because
> they're not doing it now doesn't mean they can't.
If they did, then the Japanese would not be able to license to
anyone. They'd have to do it themselves. There would be no US
industry, because the streamlining required would make them barriers
to the Japanese business.
> > Unless you want anime to become import-from-Japan only, that's not
> > possible here.
>
> I wouldn't mind that in the least, to be honest. I've always said the
> Japanese could subtitle their own shows in 10 languages and put them
> online for anyone who wanted to pay for them to download and completely
> cut out the American middleman. That's entirely fine with me. More
> money for the people who actually MAKE the product.
And the Americans DON'T make the product? What do you call the
dubbing and ADRing which cost 70K an episode?
> > There are not enough paying fans to justify those kinds of prices, and
> > you damned well know it.
>
> Then they go out of business. Oh well. Don't hear me crying, do you?
I hear you cheering.
> > A 13-episode anime, to Americanize and license it, is a million-dollar
> > operation. Read the first Sevakis quote again.
>
> Read it, he's still wrong.
So then you think it's all fraud, then.
> > It doesn't fall apart -- unless you want to charge that the entire US
> > industry has been one big fat collusion of a fraud, and that the
> > process doesn't cost over a million dollars for 13 eps in America.
>
> I'm saying that the American industry has been led around by the nose by
> the Japanese who know they can make almost any demands they want, ask
> any amount they want and US companies will pay it. Nobody ever heard of
> negotiation. If the Japanese companies want to sell their product,
> they're going to have to come to the table and be reasonable. If
> they're not... then the US companies should NOT BUY IT!
Don't you think that the Japanese would have that right to determine
who, when, and under what conditions such a licensure is made?
YOU ARROGANT FUCK!
No, seriously... You are an arrogant fuck vis-a-vis anime. You
confirm my worst suspicions of people like you.
Many of these Japanese companies need that initial money to make it to
either the next project or when this project can get it's
merchandising out (and now even some Japanese merchandisers are dying
out too)... Otherwise, no Full Metal Panic (none of the three
series!).
No Kaleido Star...
None of it.
Some of these companies need that initial half-million to continue.
That's why Gonzo was taken over last year, and would be dead
completely if not for pedophilia.
> > Then it's done and you know it. You're already seeing the
> > ramifications of it. Soon, there will be little functional need to
> > even license anime over here, and, soon after that, there will be no
> > more anime made.
>
> The fandom isn't done, just the US anime companies who want to profit
> from it. The fandom was here long before the companies were and will be
> here long after they're dead.
The fandom will be done, at least with respect to new product. There
will be no more new product -- here or in Japan. The number of series
April 2007 -> 2009 has already halved.
> > Do you realize that the Japanese market fell 20% last year? They
> > don't even give the American numbers from last year.
>
> Did you realize we're in a worldwide recession? Or are you that stupid?
As I've said numerous times, that only disintegrates the corpse you
have already killed.
> > I have quite a clue on how fandoms work -- the arrogant, self-centered
> > bitches which populate them, even doubly so.
>
> Which only proves you haven't got a clue, but you go on ranting like an
> asshole, you're fun to laugh at.
>
Keep laughing. Someone will get hurt.
> > If that's the case, then the industries which rely on them to survive
> > will ALL die.
>
> Nobody relies on them but the big-money record companies who are having
> the same problem that the anime industry is, they are not adapting to
> the new paradigm, they're just fighting to keep the old one around.
> They'll die and good riddance to them.
>
And you'll cheer their demise, the same way you do anime. You
arrogant fuck.
> > *bow* And that's not even the full extent of my feelings for scum
> > like you.
>
> You know everyone hates you, right? Even your mother.
My mother died 30 years ago.
> > You completely miss the point, as usual. THEY BOUGHT THAT RIGHT.
> > They bought the right for absolute control of the product and its
> > distribution.
>
> No, they bought the right to produce the product in the U.S., they did
> not buy anyone's loyalty, anyone's purchase power or anything else. If
> that's what you really think, you're a bigger idiot than I thought.
They bought the right to demand you purchase _their product_. You
probably don't even think the product even belongs to the license-
holders OR the original creators.
> >> Adios then, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
>
> > I'd punch you if you said that to my face.
>
> You're more than welcome to try, asshole.
When and where, bitch?
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
<BrianL.Hender...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
It's hard not to be a laughing stock in a bunch of people who would
openly rape the entire world if they knew they could get away with it.
Trust me, you don't want me with your codes of ethics, Brian.
Mike (And to think Farix was actually trying to be intelligent in
starting this...)
darkst...@gmail.com
her while he laughed at her.
Mike
LBRa...@gmail.com
> On Sat, 23 May 2009 15:30:38 -0700 (PDT), LBRat...@gmail.com wrote:
> >On May 23, 3:09=A0pm, Brian Henderson
> ><BrianL.Hender...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
> >> Blade wrote:
> >> > HOMELESS PEOPLE? OH GOD LOL SO WITTY~~~!
>
> >> > You will not get me into one of those debates. I was merely making a
> >> > snarky remark about the fanboy love for Japanese voice acting, hence th=
> >e
> >> > rimshot.
>
> >> However, it's still true for the most part. =A0
>
> > Um, no it is not. While the early anime dubs tended to be sub
> >par because the licensing companies lacked the money to hire competent
> >voice actors or because American voice actors were not used to the
> >comparative seriousness of anime, the licensing companies and American
> >voice actors started getting professional around the mid-nineties and
> >by the end of the nineties, dubbing standards were pretty high in most
> >licensing companies.
>
> It's still hit-and-miss in almost every company, though. Disney's the
> exception, but Disney's got the cash *and* the expertise to do it right
> all the time.
>
> Even Geneon (who started the trend toward excellent dubs with the "El
> Hazard" OAVs) can't produce a consistently-good dub. Listen to the
> "Nanoha" dub, if you can, for proof...
>
tend to use
less stock voices than their Japanese counterparts. Most anime
characters
are archetypes, you have the hot-blooded shonen hero, the boy who
looks like
a girl, the cynical loli girl, the cute girl, the nice guy with a
bunch
of girls who want him or no reason, the pervert, etc. Each of these
archetypes
comes with a stock voice and most Japanese seiyuu just use that
variety of stock
voice when they get a particular role. This is why Japanese voice
acting sounds so repetitive,
a pervert character has the same stock voice regardless of the
Japanese voice actor.
American voice actors try to avoid stock voices. When they do
poorly, its because
they could not find the right voice for the character. Bad dubs still
exist but are very rare these
days.
Arnold Kim
> Blade wrote:
>> HOMELESS PEOPLE? OH GOD LOL SO WITTY~~~!
>>
>> You will not get me into one of those debates. I was merely making a
>> snarky remark about the fanboy love for Japanese voice acting, hence
>
> However, it's still true for the most part. Now if you look at, say,
> Disney when they got voice actors for Miyazaki films, they actually
> hired credible actors to do the voice work. Viz, Funimation, 4Kids...
> they all get people who generally can't get an acting job to save
> their lives and it shows in their work. Most of them use silly
> voices with very little inflection, it's like they're just standing
> there in the booth reading their lines, trying to get out of there
> with their pay so they can go get drunk. There's no life to the
> work, no feeling, it's just a job and they want to get done and go
> home.
You're making some awfully big assumptions about the character of dub voice
actors for someone who professes to hate dubs. How do you know they don't
care? From the few I've had a chance to speak with, they seem to have a
great deal of care about the quality of their work.
Arnold Kim
Jim diGriz
>> Unless you feel it right to grab the breasts of any anime convention
>> guest you can get your hands on...
> Harlan Ellison is an anime downloader?
There is this story that Harlan was on stage receiving a Hugo when he
groped the presenter. Now for those of you who are not in the know, the
Hugo is rocket-ship shaped with a sharp pointy end. The presenter was
really really tempted to feed the Hugo to him pointy end first.
JdG
Antonio E. Gonzalez
Maybe Brian can get specific with his criticisms, so on a personal
basis:
- Steve Blum
- Wendee Lee
- Spike Spencer
- Kari Wahlgren
- Kyle Hebert
- Amanda Winn Lee
- Johnny Yong Bosch
- Michelle Ruff
- Vic Mignogna
- Luci Christian
- Richard Epcar
- Lisa Ortiz
I could add way more, but for the sake of brevity . . .
--
- ReFlex76
Brian Henderson
> You're making some awfully big assumptions about the character of dub
> voice actors for someone who professes to hate dubs. How do you know
> they don't care? From the few I've had a chance to speak with, they
> seem to have a great deal of care about the quality of their work.
It certainly doesn't show in their work.
darkst...@gmail.com
And it certainly won't when you spew shit out of your pompous ass.
Mike
Ansgar -59cobalt- Wiechers
> That makes you an asshole, Brian. Stop being an asshole.
Look who's talking.
cu
59cobalt
--
"My surname is Li and my personal name is Kao, and there is a slight
flaw in my character."
--Li Kao (Barry Hughart: Bridge of Birds)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On Sat, 23 May 2009 08:20:10 -0400, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>>> Unless you feel it right to grab the breasts of any anime convention
>>> guest you can get your hands on...
>
>> Harlan Ellison is an anime downloader?
>
> There is this story
Fact. You can even find a video of the event online if you want.
> that Harlan was on stage receiving a Hugo
Presenting, I think. He hasn't, as far as I know, done anything to earn
him even the POTENTIAL for a Hugo in YEARS.
> when he
> groped the presenter.
Specifically, Connie Willis, a very well-known SF author in her own right.
> Now for those of you who are not in the know, the
> Hugo is rocket-ship shaped with a sharp pointy end. The presenter was
> really really tempted to feed the Hugo to him pointy end first.
Possibly, though at least some of her comments afterward were something
to the effect that Harlan has done worse and she could handle him.
From my PoV, he should have been pushed off the stage, or perhaps just
kneed in the groin. The fact that he claimed he didn't even KNOW there
was any problem with it until later on makes it worse in some ways.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Robert Sneddon
<jimd...@myjaring.net> writes
>There is this story that Harlan was on stage receiving a Hugo when he
>groped the presenter. Now for those of you who are not in the know, the
>Hugo is rocket-ship shaped with a sharp pointy end. The presenter was
>really really tempted to feed the Hugo to him pointy end first.
She couldn't reach down that far.
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
Arnold Kim
Just wondering, are you against dubs in general on principle, or do all dubs
just happen to suck, in your opinion?
I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of sub-only fans just don't like
hearing anime in English...
Arnold Kim
LBRa...@gmail.com
because they watch anime in Japanese. Many sub-only fans seem to think
that they are superior to those who watch anime dubbed because the
watch it in a form closer to how the Japanese watch anime. This makes
them more like the Japanese fans and therefore more elite than the
dubbed fans. Just my thoughts.
Derek Janssen
>
> I think the sub-only fans seem to think of themselves as elite
> because they watch anime in Japanese. Many sub-only fans seem to think
> that they are superior to those who watch anime dubbed because the
> watch it in a form closer to how the Japanese watch anime. This makes
> them more like the Japanese fans and therefore more elite than the
> dubbed fans. Just my thoughts.
(So, let's just compare:
> Dave Baranyi wrote:
> Yes you can stop it from becoming a flamewar post - you can stop posting
> troll-bait topics.
>
> This topic was done to death years ago, and no one cares nowadays other than
> trolls. You may as well start a "Subs versus Dubs" or a "VHS versus DVD"
> thread.
...Has now turned into a sub-vs.-dub thread everyone cares about. -_-
So, why AREN'T they selling VHS's anymore??
Derek Janssen (anybody else disappointed in overestimating the group??)
eja...@verizon.net
Dave Baranyi
"Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:wzgSl.324$Cc1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
To quote Daffy Duck:
"Shoot me. Shoot me now!"
Dave Baranyi
Derek Janssen
> To quote Daffy Duck:
> "Shoot me. Shoot me now!"
"I ENJOY hearing about Crunchyroll! And ADV! And listening to last
year's trolls!
Fansubbers are pirates!--Go on! It's an anti-fansub thread!
English dubs suck!...Why aren't you posting? IT'S A SUB VS. DUB THREAD!!"
(...Where do I go wrong? Where did I make the wrong turning?? 0_0 )
Derek Janssen (more briefing)
eja...@verizon.net
Captain Nerd
Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
> (...Where do I go wrong? Where did I make the wrong turning?? 0_0 )
Albequerque...
Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
Derek Janssen
> In article <Z%gSl.332$Cc1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>>(...Where do I go wrong? Where did I make the wrong turning?? 0_0 )
>
>
> Albequerque...
...It's baseball season!
Derek Janssen (hehehh.. *_* )
eja...@verizon.net
Rob Kelk
"You keep out of this! He doesn't have to shoot you now! ... Wait 'til
you get home."
Okay, back to the topic sort-of at hand:
I like watching a good performance. Usually that means the sub, for
reasons that have been rehashed elsewhere in this thread. Sometimes (if
it's a mid-1990s to mid-2000s Pioneer/Geneon dub, a Costal Carolina /
Phoenix Post dub of any vintage, or the Japanese cast "phoned in" their
lines) it's the dub.
I'm watching these shows for entertainment. If I'm not being
entertained, there's a problem. If the reason I'm not being entertained
is the voice acting is sub-par, I'll switch to the other voice track.
Of course, sometimes I don't have that option...
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
B Sellers
Well I like it subbed but the important part is the story.
After all one on my early experiences was with "Spirited Away" in
a theater dubbed. After that I got heavily into TV series and OVAs
and though some dubs are well done the Japanese voice actors are
generally providing characterizations more in line with the creators'
intent. Not to mention the original sound tracks.
I have never had any thoughts about how the Japanese watch
it but imagine that they get up and do stuff during the commercials
and suffer untimely interruption by various matters just as I do when
I am trying to watch my shows and a friend calls to tell me of the
latest injustice they have suffered in their lives.
I would prefer to be able to read manga in Japanese just because
there are more stories available than we will ever see translated and
the same is true of anime. Maybe that is for the
best because I see some of us bewailing the backlog of shows
they have bought but never viewed. On the other hand if there
was more available it would leave me less time for my genre
novels and the like.
Oh and I prefer to buy what I want to see but basically
if someone sells me something I don't worry too much over the
provenance. After all that is how I got to see Kodocha with
the original sound track and To Heart. I had some suspicions
but I was renting and what did I know about their sources,
Oh and if the creators are unable to provide full licenses
to the original release then that is the same as no license in
my estimation. Without the sound track and the songs in the
KOR tv and movies it would be nearly worthless.
Just my thoughts.
later
bliss
Brian Henderson
> Just wondering, are you against dubs in general on principle, or do all
> dubs just happen to suck, in your opinion?
I'm against all bad dubs. Now personally, I don't like dubs, I don't
watch dubs except in very special circumstances, but like I said, Disney
did a fantastic job on their Miyazaki dubs, I have all the DVDs and I've
seen them and enjoyed them.
> I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of sub-only fans just don't like
> hearing anime in English...
To some degree yes, but that's primarily because I think the Japanese
are just done better. U.S. voice actors rarely have the Japanese
director telling them how they should voice their work so that it flows
seamlessly with the animation. That, along with the really bad voice
work, let's be honest, is where dubs fail.
I don't pretend that I'm watching a show from the U.S., it's a Japanese
show in Japanese by Japanese actors. That's good enough for me.
Robert Sneddon
<eja...@nospam.verizon.net> writes
>...Has now turned into a sub-vs.-dub thread everyone cares about. -_-
>
>So, why AREN'T they selling VHS's anymore??
And what happened to Laserdiscs?
There was a docudrama made called "Free Enterprise" about a bunch of
American SF/Trek nerds, made by nerds themselves. At the part of the
show where they all troop into their local laserdisc store and come out
with the "Close Encounters" LD Special Edition, the director's
commentary on the DVD of the show states they all thought DVDs would
never catch on.
Sub vs. dub -- it's a personal opinion but I prefer subs unless the
dubs are very well done. There are only a couple of examples I can think
of right now, such as Cowboy Bebop and Big O where the dub voice acting
adds to the storyline. In contrast, the dubs on the Geneon release of
Haibane Renmei force me to ram pencils in my ears to stop the agony.
darkst...@gmail.com
> In article <Z%gSl.332$Cc1....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
> Derek Janssen <ejan...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > (...Where do I go wrong? Where did I make the wrong turning?? 0_0 )
>
> Albequerque...
Damn, that only took 33 minutes to recycle that old joke...
Mike (... which I thought of too.)
Ken Arromdee
Brian Henderson <BrianL.H...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote:
>> If you have a DVR and skip all commercials (and then don't buy the DVD),
>> then you've already decided that it's okay to watch a show with no revenue
>> whatsoever going to the creators. If so, why are you so concerned that the
>> creators get some revenue from you watching a fansub?
>But *I* never agreed to pay them to begin with. They have no contract
>that I signed where I agreed to put money in their pockets or watch
>their advertisements. If that was their plan, they should have aired it
>pay-per-view so that only those who actually paid up front got to see it.
Again, that's my point.
If you're concerned about legality, you shouldn't watch fansubs at all
regardless of whether you buy anything afterwards.
If you're concerned, on the other hand, about the creators making money, why
should you be, if you're not concerned about this when you watch actual
broadcast television?
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
"In a superhero story, Superman jumps off buildings and flies. In a realistic
story, Superman doesn't jump off buildings and can't fly. Deconstruction is
writing a story where Superman can't fly but he still jumps off of buildings."
Gerardo Campos
So far, from the series I have had the chance to watch, I have not found an
English dub that I liked, to me, the voices sound uninspired, boring and
sometimes annoying. If I have the choice between a Spanish dub vs an
English dub, my choice will always be Spanish.
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
Antonio E. Gonzalez
Feigning senility, perhaps?
--
- ReFlex76
Antonio E. Gonzalez
Please then, name some specific "bad dubs," and specific English
VAs you have problems with!
--
- ReFlex76
Arnold Kim
> Captain Nerd wrote:
>
>> In article <Z%gSl.332$Cc1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
>> Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> (...Where do I go wrong? Where did I make the wrong turning?? 0_0
>>> )
>>
>>
>> Albequerque...
>
> ...It's baseball season!
I thought it was Elmer season!
Arnold Kim
Be vewwy, vewwy quiet...
Antonio E. Gonzalez
<arno...@optonline.net> wrote:
>Derek Janssen wrote:
>> Captain Nerd wrote:
>>
>>> In article <Z%gSl.332$Cc1...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
>>> Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> (...Where do I go wrong? Where did I make the wrong turning?? 0_0
>>>> )
>>>
>>>
>>> Albequerque...
>>
>> ...It's baseball season!
>
>I thought it was Elmer season!
>
Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit, kill the WA-bbit!
--
- ReFlex76
Derek Janssen
(Just for reference, would I be right in assuming that NOBODY has seen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOM6yTvPnTY ?)
Derek Janssen (who knows the value of applying the Bugs Bunny rule to
annoying antagonist posters: The more gullible, the more deadpan
creativity may be applied) :)
eja...@verizon.net
Dave Watson
> On May 23, 4:48�am, The Wanderer <inversepara...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 05/22/2009 10:08 PM, Brian Henderson wrote:
>>
>>> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>> The problem with that is that you are dealing with a fanbase with
>>>> NO ethics at all. �None with respect to each other, and fewer with
>>>> respect to the industry. �Witness one convention last year where at
>>>> least two female VA's were sexually assaulted and third was
>>>> threatened with same.
>>
>>> Wrong, they just don't have *YOUR* ethics. �Stop exaggerating.
>>
>> Please don't feed the troll.
>>
>> I do enjoy seeing people argue with him, but it does get kind of old. So
>> far you're the only person who's actually replied to him in this thread,
>> and I had in fact hoped that no one would do that at all...
>
> You've got two options:
>
> Have me driven from the Internet with legal or lethal force
>
> or
>
> r.a.a.m.moderated
"IT! IT!! RIM!!!" SC.
Watson
Who just returned from Anime North, where...ready for it?...he BOUGHT
ANIME!!
Captain Nerd
Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
> Antonio E. Gonzalez wrote:
> > On Mon, 25 May 2009 01:41:18 -0400, "Arnold Kim"
> > <arno...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>...It's baseball season!
> >>
> >>I thought it was Elmer season!
> >
> > Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit, kill the WA-bbit!
>
> (Just for reference, would I be right in assuming that NOBODY has seen
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOM6yTvPnTY ?)
I can't speak for "Nobody", but I can say I've seen this decades ago,
although not on youtube before...
darkst...@gmail.com
> Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit, kill the WA-bbit!
Kill da wabbit????
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
to mouth off and ignore reality.
Mike
Giovanni Wassen
> I think the sub-only fans seem to think of themselves as elite
> because they watch anime in Japanese.
What? No. I just don't care for dubs, it has nothing to do with me feeling
elite or superior to fans of dubs. Please keep these silly assumptions to
yourself.
--
Gio
http://www.watkijkikoptv.info
http://myanimelist.net/profile/extatix
http://watkijkikoptv.info/animeblog