Funi boosts Navarre's Q2 profits
selaboc
- The Publishing segment saw significant increases in its sales of
anime content which was responsible for our year over year profit
improvement." commented Cary Deacon, Chief Executive Officer.
- For the second quarter ended September 30, 2008, the publishing
segment achieved net sales, before inter- company eliminations, of
$28.8 million, as compared to net sales of $27.0 million in net sales
before inter-company eliminations for the same period last year, an
increase of $1.8 million or 6.5%.
- FUNimation saw net sales gains during the second quarter as a result
of the recent acquisition of a significant amount of new content, as
well as several new digital distribution agreements.
- Preliminary income from continuing operations in the publishing
segment increased to $3.1 million in the second quarter, as compared
to $1.2 million in the prior year, an increase of 149%. This
improvement resulted primarily from increased sales of anime content
as well as lower operating costs and improved margins at BCI.
darkst...@gmail.com
play to be THE non-Shonen Jump source of anime (if not just THE source
of anime) in North America, a year-to-year increase is not completely
unexpected.
But, who's going to buy the $3M worth of Ouran DVDs they'll need to
get to clear that series' books in this economy?
Mike
Dave Watson
Whatever, crank.
Watson
Who knows at least one person who has bought it (and who would buy it
himself if he had the money), so blow him.
Travers Naran
> Considering, now, that this was after they basically made the power
> play to be THE non-Shonen Jump source of anime (if not just THE source
> of anime) in North America, a year-to-year increase is not completely
> unexpected.
http://ir.navarre.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=105157&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1220313&highlight=
"FUNimation saw net sales gains during the second quarter as a result of
the recent acquisition of a significant amount of new content, as well
as several new digital distribution agreements. "
"Preliminary income from continuing operations in the publishing segment
increased to $3.1 million in the second quarter, as compared to $1.2
million in the prior year, an increase of 149%. This improvement
resulted primarily from increased sales of anime content as well as
lower operating costs and improved margins at BCI."
Maybe, maybe not. It looks like they managed to sell DVDs and digital
distribution rights, which is an interesting sign.
Maybe I'll win this bet. :-)
Although the market agrees with you, I think: it's still trading in the
penny stock range (92 cents / share).
> But, who's going to buy the $3M worth of Ouran DVDs they'll need to
> get to clear that series' books in this economy?
We shall see. I think Ouran will sell well, but it's not going to be
super huge relative to the boom years.
--
-----
Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
darkst...@gmail.com
Actually, you know two: This "crank" did it on Friday.
That's not the point. Do the math... $3 million they have to make
back -- probably at $30/piece. You think they can get that many?
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Considering, now, that this was after they basically made the power
> > play to be THE non-Shonen Jump source of anime (if not just THE source
> > of anime) in North America, a year-to-year increase is not completely
> > unexpected.
>
>
> "FUNimation saw net sales gains during the second quarter as a result of
> the recent acquisition of a significant amount of new content, as well
> as several new digital distribution agreements. "
>
> "Preliminary income from continuing operations in the publishing segment
> increased to $3.1 million in the second quarter, as compared to $1.2
> million in the prior year, an increase of 149%. This improvement
> resulted primarily from increased sales of anime content as well as
> lower operating costs and improved margins at BCI."
>
> Maybe, maybe not. It looks like they managed to sell DVDs and digital
> distribution rights, which is an interesting sign.
The problem is the _extent_ that they need to break even. That's the
real issue here.
And they probably had to sell digital distro rights to even get the
episodes they're giving away on their full site on the Net to promote
people buying the whole series...
> Maybe I'll win this bet. :-)
We'll see. I think the real proof will be what their Q3 numbers turn
out to be, especially when the retail sector gets beheaded this
Christmas -- and I think they are counting on huge sales to justify
the moves they purport got the rise they claimed in their Q2.
> Although the market agrees with you, I think: it's still trading in the
> penny stock range (92 cents / share).
That's the thing that people have to understand: I don't think people
believe this to be a workable model at all. (That 0.92 is up about
10% from the last time I checked.)
> > But, who's going to buy the $3M worth of Ouran DVDs they'll need to
> > get to clear that series' books in this economy?
>
> We shall see. I think Ouran will sell well, but it's not going to be
> super huge relative to the boom years.
But how well is "well"??
Mike
Pumbaa
Travers Naran
> It is up to 0.9999 a share today
For a couple hours:
http://finance.google.ca/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chdet=1225746000000&chddm=391&q=NASDAQ:NAVR&ntsp=0
It's back down to 0.92. This morning when I checked, there was a 14
cent bid/ask spread. I.e., people were selling there shares for 0.96/
share and people were only buying them at 0.82/share.
The pattern seems to suggest Navarre's stock is being shorted.
Antonio E. Gonzalez
Let's see:
At about $120 for a season box set, to reach $3 million they'd need
to sell 25,000. Sounds *very* reachable!
If that's just to break even, looks like Funi's gonna make a
killing!
darkst...@gmail.com
> At about $120 for a season box set, to reach $3 million they'd need
> to sell 25,000. Sounds *very* reachable!
>
> If that's just to break even, looks like Funi's gonna make a
> killing!
Not as fansubbed as it is. And not as dissatisfied as a lot of people
seem to be with one thing or another in the English dub.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> On Nov 3, 8:50 am, "Pumbaa" <pinkertonja...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It is up to 0.9999 a share today
>
>
> It's back down to 0.92. This morning when I checked, there was a 14
> cent bid/ask spread. I.e., people were selling there shares for 0.96/
> share and people were only buying them at 0.82/share.
>
> The pattern seems to suggest Navarre's stock is being shorted.
Of course, bringing some of the other non-anime discussions I have
into this: What stock isn't, these days?
Mike
Bobby Clark
"Antonio E. Gonzalez" <AntE...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:f8sug4dq7bj6h54od...@4ax.com...
I think they will be able to sell 100K plus at around $49 a box set per
season. They have been doing deals like that recently. A few deals have
been $30 to $35 for a half season. i.e. Ghosthunt. So the complete set will
still be under $70.
Bobby
Captain Nerd
Especially given a time-frame longer than 8 weeks, which is all that
Dorkster is willing to give "the industry" (or is he hedging now that
the year is almost over and anime companies are still around? And
who really cares?). I'd say over the course of 1 - 3 years, 25,000
sales are quite possible.
Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
darkst...@gmail.com
come around before you actually believe much of anything retail has
more than about 8 weeks left. By January, you can expect the
bankruptcies to skyrocket.
BE will leave on their own volition -- it's not like they haven't had
serious questions about dealing with the US "fans" for a long time.
Navarre needs some investor backing, or Funimation is going to have to
be cut loose or die.
(And anyone who wants to believe that Ouran is going to top 50K/volume
really needs their heads examined. With what resources are enough
people going to have to do that?)
Mike
Abraham Evangelista
Funi isn't getting that much though. Full retail (which sensible
shoppers won't pay) is $45 for a 13 episode box set. Two of those for
the whole show, leaves $90 in total. And that would of course assume
that funi is getting full retail for their boxes. They're not.
They'll be getting wholesale, which might be half that.
So we're back at $45 per season. Subtract another $5 in packaging,
and delivery (and I think I'm being generous) and we're at $40.
That puts us at 75,000 to break even. I don't know sales numbers, but
I doubt that anything other than a breakthrough best seller gets
anywhere close to that amount.
This is of course assuming that $3,000,000 is accurate for production
costs, which I also can't verify.
--
Abraham Evangelista
Antonio E. Gonzalez
For that they'd need about 45,000 sales to break even (about the
attendance for this year's AX!); 100,000 should give them one helluva
profit; any bets on 200,000 sales?
--
- ReFlex 76
- "Let's beat the terrorists with our most powerful weapon . . . hot
girl-on-girl action!"
- "The difference between young and old is the difference between
looking forward to your next birthday, and dreading it!"
- Jesus Christ - The original hippie!
<http://reflex76.blogspot.com/>
<http://www.blogger.com/profile/07245047157197572936>
Katana > Chain Saw > Baseball Bat > Hammer
Antonio E. Gonzalez
45,000? 100,000? 200,000? 500,000?! 1,000,000??!!
Dave Watson
> On Nov 2, 12:11 pm, Dave Watson <dwbeingupfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 2, 12:38 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > But, who's going to buy the $3M worth of Ouran DVDs they'll need to
> > > get to clear that series' books in this economy?
>
> > Whatever, crank.
>
> > Watson
> > Who knows at least one person who has bought it (and who would buy it
> > himself if he had the money), so blow him.
>
> Actually, you know two: This "crank" did it on Friday.
Bullshit. You hate anime. You love jacking off your "tough guy ex-
convict" schtik (whilst actually showing just how pathetic you
actually are) on an anime Usenet newsgroup. I don't believe you buy
anything anime-related. The prolific number of your posts I've seen
in which you talk about the aspects of anime you actually like (not a
single friggin' one) compared to your non-stop schtik-wanking bear
this out. If anime didn't exist, you'd be finding someplace else to
masturbate in public.
Watson.
darkst...@gmail.com
police have me arrested.
Period. You're full of shit -- you've been full of shit -- and you
remain full of shit.
Mike
Dave Watson
> If you believe half the shit you post, you'd already have had the
> police have me arrested.
Colour commentary added.
> Period. You're full of shit -- you've been full of shit -- and you
> remain full of shit.
I'm assuming you're responding to my post in this thread accusing you
of actually hating anime and loving being an asshole on anime Usenet
newsgroups instead. Well, that accusation is based on your posts I've
read here. So why don't you prove me wrong and post about anime you
like without smacking it with the tool belt? I mean, I've got my own
complaints about the anime industry and have hammered them well here,
but if it wasn't for not being afraid of talking about stuff I like
(even if it's fan service) and having the occasional laugh, I'd be as
hated as you are. As it is, by and large, people here think I'm OK.
Some of them even like me. No one will claim that about you.
Watson.
(And shouldn't the "Period." be at the end of that paragraph?)
bobbie sellers
whom the sensible have relegated to their killfiles but otherwise
you appear to be reasonable, Mr. Watson.
I wonder how ELL is doing...
I don't wonder about that anonymous nay-sayer who worries so much
about an entertainment
industry while great things positive and negative are happening in the
so-called reality. And that
entertainment industry is bring out great shows like Yawara! and
Genshiken 2 as well as a few
other items of personal interest so it looks pretty healthy to me.
later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at sfo xcalifornia dot com)
--
bobbie sellers - a retired nurse in San Francisco
Ningen banji Human beings do
Samazama no Every single kind
Baka a suru Of stupid thing
--- 117th edition of Haifu Yanagidaru published in 1832
Dave Watson
> You have one bad habit of talking back to some individual
> whom the sensible have relegated to their killfiles but otherwise
> you appear to be reasonable, Mr. Watson.
It's the heckler in me. I used to bust some good MST3K-type lines
during anime club showings (Asuka, Evangelion ep. 8: "Why do all boys
have to be such perverted jerks?" Watson: "Biology. Next!").
> I wonder how ELL is doing...
I kind of miss him, really. It would be interesting to watch him
verbally tear El Cranko here a new asshole.
> I don't wonder about that anonymous nay-sayer who worries so much
> about an entertainment
> industry while great things positive and negative are happening in the
> so-called reality. And that
> entertainment industry is bring out great shows like Yawara! and
> Genshiken 2 as well as a few
> other items of personal interest so it looks pretty healthy to me.
You know it, I know it, and everyone else here knows it (the only
reason I don't throw it more money myself is not having much money to
throw, but I'm working on that). The only one who doesn't know it is
RAAM's Official Soccerball. Ever notice that even people who don't
play soccer can't resist giving one of those things a boot when it's
right there in front of them?
Watson
Jedermann sein eigner Fussball (Each Man His Own Football)--Title of a
1919 German Dadaist parody newspaper.
Derek Janssen
>
> You know it, I know it, and everyone else here knows it (the only
> reason I don't throw it more money myself is not having much money to
> throw, but I'm working on that). The only one who doesn't know it is
> RAAM's Official Soccerball. Ever notice that even people who don't
> play soccer can't resist giving one of those things a boot when it's
> right there in front of them?
Or, with apologies to Alan Moore...er, sorry, "illustrator Dave Gibbons":
---
"Say, remember that one RAAM'er who tried dressing up as a
'supervillain', just so he could get beaten up?"
"Oh, yeah, 'Darkstar'?--He was a piece o' work."
"Caught him getting thrown out of a convention one time, and didn't know
what his racket was, so started hitting him...After a while, I'm
thinking 'He's breathing funny--Does he have asthma?'"
"Tried that on me, too. Ran after me for six blocks one time, shouting
'Punish me, punish me!', and I'm saying 'No!'"
"So whatever happened to him, anyway?"
"ISP-shach dropped him down an elevator shaft."
---
Derek Janssen (who watches the RAAM'ers)
eja...@verizon.net
darkst...@gmail.com
Mike (Serious question...)
Dave Watson
> What great things are happening in anime?
>
> Mike (Serious question...)
Everybody else here has stuff that they find to be great things in
anime, including me. *You* tell *us* what *you* feel are great things
happening in anime--without whipping out and yanking on your schtik
again. That's the challenge I gave you.
Watson.
darkst...@gmail.com
I asked the question because there aren't any. There haven't been any
in a couple of years, now.
Unless you honestly believe one company getting 55-60% of the anime
business in America (with another getting about 20% or so) is a good
thing -- essentially a licensing monopoly...
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> Dave Watson wrote:
>
> > You know it, I know it, and everyone else here knows it (the only
> > reason I don't throw it more money myself is not having much money to
> > throw, but I'm working on that). The only one who doesn't know it is
> > RAAM's Official Soccerball. Ever notice that even people who don't
> > play soccer can't resist giving one of those things a boot when it's
> > right there in front of them?
>
> Or, with apologies to Alan Moore...er, sorry, "illustrator Dave Gibbons":
Of course, the numbers show he's full of shit.
Here's a little road map for the clued-in:
Two separate studies have put the fansub/download load (BitTorrent to
the US only) at 6 million episodes a week. That's somewhere between
1.5 and 2 million DVDs a week lost to thievery.
Given last year's figures, it appears as if the entire US industry for
last year was slightly north of 10 million DVDs for the entire year of
2007. And, if anime follows other trends already being shown (http://
www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-11-04/deep-cuts-in-u.s-holiday-graphic-novel-sales-expected)
-- with one person saying that "many once-famous retailers will shut
their doors" (Leonard Riggio, chairman of Barnes & Noble) -- anime
will get beheaded too this holiday, and the dominoes will fall.
You've already got one company basically holding up a dead-weight
parent (Funi holding up Navarre), a second company who's been
reorganizing and openly wondering why they're dealing with the US at
all (Bandai), and the third has no real interest in the anime industry
per se at all (Viz/Shonen Jump).
So I ask you again: What good is there in the anime right now?
Seems all the fans are good for is stealing the material and accosting
the voice-actor guests...
Mike
Derek Janssen
> On Nov 5, 5:18 pm, Dave Watson <dwbeingupfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Nov 5, 8:07 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>What great things are happening in anime?
>>
>>>Mike (Serious question...)
>>
>>Everybody else here has stuff that they find to be great things in
>>anime, including me. *You* tell *us* what *you* feel are great things
>>happening in anime--without whipping out and yanking on your schtik
>>again. That's the challenge I gave you.
>
>
> I asked the question because there aren't any. There haven't been any
> in a couple of years, now.
Annnnnd....he fails the challenge. Check the numbers on your tickets,
folks, before cashing.
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
darkst...@gmail.com
Of course I'd fail his challenge.
His challenge was for me to tell you what I think are good things
happening in anime. THERE -- AREN'T -- ANY.
The thieves took it all and the fraudulent accounting practices stole
the scraps!
For me to succeed in his challenge, I'd -- have -- to -- _lie_.
Mike
Giovanni Wassen
> On Nov 5, 8:07 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>> What great things are happening in anime?
>>
>> Mike (Serious question...)
>
> Everybody else here has stuff that they find to be great things in
> anime, including me.
I recently found out high-school humour isn't that bad :)
--
Gio
http://blog.watkijkikoptv.info
http://myanimelist.net/profile/extatix
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Nov 5, 5:18 pm, Dave Watson <dwbeingupfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 5, 8:07 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> What great things are happening in anime?
>>>
>>>> Mike (Serious question...)
>>>
>>> Everybody else here has stuff that they find to be great things in
>>> anime, including me. *You* tell *us* what *you* feel are great things
>>> happening in anime--without whipping out and yanking on your schtik
>>> again. That's the challenge I gave you.
>>
>>
>> I asked the question because there aren't any. There haven't been any
>> in a couple of years, now.
>
> Annnnnd....he fails the challenge.
It's worse than that. It's no surprise he failed the challenge, but he
also apparently proved himself a liar. Unless he routinely purchases
stuff he hates, he just recently claimed to have purchased an anime box
set (don't recall which one, just that he claimed he'd bought it);
presumably, he COULD have used whichever anime that was as an example of
good things/great things in anime to win the challenge.
So he apparently *is* a direct liar as well as a loon.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Dave Watson
Well, you've just proved me right--you hate anime and love being a
jerkoff. No big surprise.
Watson.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
I'm shocked, SHOCKED that you were proven right here, Dave.
It's also amusing he talks about monopoly. People were saying the same
thing about Wizards of the Coast and RPGs at one point -- but in such
industries there ISN'T a "monopoly" possibility of the sort that used to
be a problem in other industries. There's NOTHING stopping other people
from starting their own companies.
And of course in some cases monopoly isn't all bad. The AT&T breakup
years back made phone service more expensive and less predictable for at
least a decade or two.
darkst...@gmail.com
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Derek Janssen wrote:
Then do something about it, bitch. You already know how I feel about
you, liar.
Actually, I've only made two purchases, both off of legal pre-screens
(Ouran official premiere and a screener a local show was provided of
"Beck"), in about nine months. Doesn't change that I hate what you
and yours have done to anime. You've taken a perfectly legitimate art
form and reduced it to the level of having to whore for a few bucks a
trick to survive -- all while a cancer (of sorts) is eating away at
the body.
He is asking the impossible -- for me to tell him something positive
about an industry in which nothing positive is really going on, and
it's been that way for quite some time.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Dave Watson wrote:
> > On Nov 6, 12:46 am, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Nov 5, 5:18 pm, Dave Watson <dwbeingupfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On Nov 5, 8:07 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> What great things are happening in anime?
> >>>> Mike (Serious question...)
> >>> Everybody else here has stuff that they find to be great things in
> >>> anime, including me. *You* tell *us* what *you* feel are great things
> >>> happening in anime--without whipping out and yanking on your schtik
> >>> again. That's the challenge I gave you.
> >> I asked the question because there aren't any. There haven't been any
> >> in a couple of years, now.
>
> >> Unless you honestly believe one company getting 55-60% of the anime
> >> business in America (with another getting about 20% or so) is a good
> >> thing -- essentially a licensing monopoly...
>
> > Well, you've just proved me right--you hate anime and love being a
> > jerkoff. No big surprise.
>
> I'm shocked, SHOCKED that you were proven right here, Dave.
>
> It's also amusing he talks about monopoly. People were saying the same
> thing about Wizards of the Coast and RPGs at one point -- but in such
> industries there ISN'T a "monopoly" possibility of the sort that used to
> be a problem in other industries. There's NOTHING stopping other people
> from starting their own companies.
Considering that such a situation is NOT a good thing -- WotC also
owned GenCon, LLC, for a while. Used to go to several shows of theirs
-- last I heard, they had pretty much filed for bankruptcy.
I find it absolutely non-surprising that you actually find an anime
monopoly to be a good thing. What you forget, of course, is that the
competition which drove up the licensing fees is what provided the
money for a lot of the Japanese studios to survive the time-gap
between creation and what realization of profit they _might_ get (or
_might have gotten_) from merchandising or whatever.
That's gone. And now you are seeing studios begin the process of
being cut off (or they have to basically sell themselves to television
networks to become subsidiaries of same to survive).
But, coming from you, I am in no way surprised to see that you like
your anime being essentially controlled by thieves and pirates.
Crime, I guess, does pay.
Mike
Derek Janssen
> On Nov 6, 4:31 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>>Annnnnd....he fails the challenge.
>>
>> It's worse than that. It's no surprise he failed the challenge, but he
>>also apparently proved himself a liar. Unless he routinely purchases
>>stuff he hates, he just recently claimed to have purchased an anime box
>>set (don't recall which one, just that he claimed he'd bought it);
>>presumably, he COULD have used whichever anime that was as an example of
>>good things/great things in anime to win the challenge.
>>
>> So he apparently *is* a direct liar as well as a loon.
>
> Then do something about it, bitch.
<shrug>
Okay:
<smooshes custard pie in Darky's face>
Derek Janssen (y'know, it's losing its edge) :)
eja...@verizon.net
darkst...@gmail.com
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Then do something about it, bitch.
>
> <shrug>
> Okay:
> <smooshes custard pie in Darky's face>
<takes custard pie off face>
<licks some custard off finger -- yum!>
I was talking to Sea Gnat.
<deposits remains of custard pie on Derek's head>
Mike (Yeah, I know -- does lose it's edge a little bit. Doesn't make
it any less fun to return the favor, though.)
selaboc
On Nov 6, 1:18 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> He is asking the impossible -- for me to tell him something positive
> about an industry in which nothing positive is really going on, and
> it's been that way for quite some time.
No he didn't. He did not ask you to tell him something positive about
the *industry*, he ask you for something positive about *anime*.
Here's a hint: the word "Anime" is not synonymous with the word
"industry". They are two different things, I guess they're also two
more words to add to the (very long and every growing) list of words
dorkstar doesn't understand the meaning of.
One can despise the way Major League Baseball is run (to pick a random
example) but still like the game of Baseball and have something
positive to say about their favorite players or a game that they
recently watched.
Derek Janssen
> I know I shouldn't feel the troll, but....
....EWWW! And don't *feed* him, either! >_<
Derek Janssen (and no hot-oil rubs!)
eja...@verizon.net
selaboc
> selaboc wrote:
> > I know I shouldn't feel the troll, but....
>
> ....EWWW! And don't *feed* him, either! >_<
Thanks for pointing out my most unfortunate typo. Now I need to scrub
my brain! >_<
Bobby Clark
"Abraham Evangelista" <da...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:f09vg4tdu1oc0qv55...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:47:22 -0800, Antonio E. Gonzalez
> <AntE...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:11:20 -0800 (PST), Dave Watson
>><dwbeing...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Nov 2, 12:38 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> play to be THE non-Shonen Jump source of anime (if not just THE source
>>>> of anime) in North America, a year-to-year increase is not completely
>>>> unexpected.
>>>>
>>>> get to clear that series' books in this economy?
>>>
>>>Whatever, crank.
>>>
>>>Watson
>>>Who knows at least one person who has bought it (and who would buy it
>>>himself if he had the money), so blow him.
>>
>>
>> At about $120 for a season box set, to reach $3 million they'd need
>>to sell 25,000. Sounds *very* reachable!
>>
>> If that's just to break even, looks like Funi's gonna make a
>>killing!
>
> shoppers won't pay) is $45 for a 13 episode box set. Two of those for
> the whole show, leaves $90 in total. And that would of course assume
> that funi is getting full retail for their boxes. They're not.
> They'll be getting wholesale, which might be half that.
>
> So we're back at $45 per season. Subtract another $5 in packaging,
After looking at the Ghost hunt that cost me $35, I think more like $3.00
max on the hard cost. Low volume DVDs are in the range of 70 cents at the
top end. Paper and plastic are almost nothing.
Bobby
> and delivery (and I think I'm being generous) and we're at $40.
>
> That puts us at 75,000 to break even. I don't know sales numbers, but
> I doubt that anything other than a breakthrough best seller gets
> anywhere close to that amount.
>
> This is of course assuming that $3,000,000 is accurate for production
> costs, which I also can't verify.
> --
> Abraham Evangelista
Bobby Clark
"Antonio E. Gonzalez" <AntE...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:06fvg4dfugmsf6cvu...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 17:20:10 -0600, "Bobby Clark"
> <bclark@REMOVE3_airmail.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Antonio E. Gonzalez" <AntE...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:f8sug4dq7bj6h54od...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:11:20 -0800 (PST), Dave Watson
>>> <dwbeing...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Nov 2, 12:38 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Considering, now, that this was after they basically made the power
>>>>> play to be THE non-Shonen Jump source of anime (if not just THE source
>>>>> of anime) in North America, a year-to-year increase is not completely
>>>>> unexpected.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, who's going to buy the $3M worth of Ouran DVDs they'll need to
>>>>> get to clear that series' books in this economy?
>>>>
>>>>Whatever, crank.
>>>>
>>>>Watson
>>>>Who knows at least one person who has bought it (and who would buy it
>>>>himself if he had the money), so blow him.
>>>
>>> Let's see:
>>>
>>> At about $120 for a season box set, to reach $3 million they'd need
>>> to sell 25,000. Sounds *very* reachable!
>>
>>season. They have been doing deals like that recently. A few deals have
>>been $30 to $35 for a half season. i.e. Ghosthunt. So the complete set
>>will
>>still be under $70.
>>
>
> For that they'd need about 45,000 sales to break even (about the
> attendance for this year's AX!); 100,000 should give them one helluva
> profit; any bets on 200,000 sales?
Funimation did the bi-season deal for Ouran. The season 1 part 1 is out now
with 13 episodes. The list price is $59.98. The street price is $35 to
$41 depending on where you shop. I still think 100k plus is with in the
realm of possibility on this.
If it is like the Ghost Hunt we just picked up, there will be 2 disk per
set. Hard cost for the whole package should be under $3.00 per set. I can't
see how they will not break even.
Bobby
darkst...@gmail.com
> I know I shouldn't feel the troll, but....
>
> On Nov 6, 1:18 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > He is asking the impossible -- for me to tell him something positive
> > about an industry in which nothing positive is really going on, and
> > it's been that way for quite some time.
>
> No he didn't. He did not ask you to tell him something positive about
> the *industry*, he ask you for something positive about *anime*.
No.
> Here's a hint: the word "Anime" is not synonymous with the word
> "industry". They are two different things, I guess they're also two
> more words to add to the (very long and every growing) list of words
> dorkstar doesn't understand the meaning of.
... because you are wrong. "Anime" and it's "industry" are so inter-
twined because of the fact that the stuff is so expensive to create
(on either side of the Pacific). The "industry" has been so
compromised by its supposed "fans" that anime has deteriorated so
badly in the last couple of years that there isn't anything good to
say about anime in 2008. The fans are running around like they own
the place, and the industry is unwilling (or unable) to do anything
about it.
> One can despise the way Major League Baseball is run (to pick a random
> example) but still like the game of Baseball and have something
> positive to say about their favorite players or a game that they
> recently watched.
Thanks for playing, but that example proves my point. MLB has been
run like such an organized crime syndicate that it has basically
destroyed the sport of baseball in a much larger scope than simply
professional. MLB has been run like such a piece of shit that I
largely do not watch anymore. The NFL is getting down to that level
with it's brand of thugs and ghetto slime (Michael Vick, Pacman Jones,
etc. etc. etc.)
Bud Selig should be in prison for what he's pulled on the sport.
Donald Fehr should be his cellmate.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> selaboc wrote:
> > I know I shouldn't feel the troll, but....
>
> ....EWWW! And don't *feed* him, either! >_<
>
> Derek Janssen (and no hot-oil rubs!)
Oh, I didn't see that the first time...
Mike (The *visual*! The *VISUAL*!!!)
Dave Watson
> On Nov 6, 10:32 am, selaboc <c64...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I know I shouldn't feel the troll, but....
Hope you were wearing rubber gloves.
> > On Nov 6, 1:18 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > He is asking the impossible -- for me to tell him something positive
> > > about an industry in which nothing positive is really going on, and
> > > it's been that way for quite some time.
>
> > No he didn't. He did not ask you to tell him something positive about
> > the *industry*, he ask you for something positive about *anime*.
>
> No.
Yes. Go back and read my posts in this thread. I challenged you to
tell us about something you like about anime--period. I wanted you to
disprove my theory that, deep down, you hate anime but love being a
sanctimonious wanker on Usenet newsgroups. So far, you have failed to
do so.
Watson.
Travers Naran
> Here's a hint: the word "Anime" is not synonymous with the word
> "industry".
That's like saying Disney isn't synonymous with corporation. Or movies
aren't synonymous with industry. How does anime get made and
distributed except by an industry?
> They are two different things, I guess they're also two
> more words to add to the (very long and every growing) list of words
> dorkstar doesn't understand the meaning of.
Darkstar's problem is he takes the vicissitudes of the industry far too
personally, but so do a lot of fans in other things. For example...
> One can despise the way Major League Baseball is run (to pick a random
> example) but still like the game of Baseball and have something
> positive to say about their favorite players or a game that they
> recently watched.
There are people out there who've become so disenfranchised by MLB that
the only way they can say something nice about Baseball is to talk about
Little League or its history.
Examples:
http://digitalknack.com/strike.htm
http://bennett.com/blog/2005/10/mlb-sucks/ (especially the comments)
From my perspective, I see:
1. Darkstar-like fans can be found in any fandom.
For example, I was almost as angry & vicious toward the Star Trek
franchise during the DS9 & Voyager years when Trekkies threw the same
accusations and slurs at me that is thrown at Darkstar. I think this is
part of the reason I take the time to listen to him and engage him.
I don't entirely agree with him, but I can see his point of view, and I
do try to engage his points with reason. Unlike trolls and anklebiters,
I find he does respond in kind. So if you want intelligent responses
out of darkstar, start responding intelligently. I don't think most of
you have actually provided rational arguments and facts, and I feel
people are resorting to typical flame behaviour: insults, name calling
and other slurs. Thus you get it returned back in full.
2. Darkstar detractors seem to get their noses out of joint pretty easily.
Why would he upset you so much unless, on some you level, you think he
might be right? And if you don't agree with him, and you think he's
wrong, why get upset? Grow up!
Sometimes I find myself drawn into immature flame wars, but I'm grown up
enough to just go, "He ain't worth it!" and move on. That's why I
mostly ignored ELL and have no antipathy toward him. If you don't think
Darkstar has a point, then just ignore him and move to the next thread.
--
-----
Travers Naran, tnaran at google's mail.com
"Welcome to RAAM. Hope you can take a beating..." -- E.L.L.
Travers Naran
> Yes. Go back and read my posts in this thread. I challenged you to
> tell us about something you like about anime--period. I wanted you to
> disprove my theory that, deep down, you hate anime but love being a
> sanctimonious wanker on Usenet newsgroups. So far, you have failed to
> do so.
He did mention his bought Ouran Host club.
Giovanni Wassen
> selaboc wrote:
>> Here's a hint: the word "Anime" is not synonymous with the word
>> "industry".
>
> That's like saying Disney isn't synonymous with corporation. Or
> movies aren't synonymous with industry. How does anime get made and
> distributed except by an industry?
It's not synonymous. One can hate the company Disney but still like
Cinderalla, can't they?
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Deep down I think he hates just about everything. He singles ME out as
the epitome of the downfall of anime (as he sees it) when I'm one of the
few who never downloaded ANYTHING, who's purchased all the anime that's
currently in his house that has been available for purchase (I have some
old traded VHS tapes still around, though I haven't watched any in
years), etc. I've even testified for AOL-Time Warner against a
filesharing company (Aimster).
The only thing I've done which could be even vaguely interpreted as
"favoring" the downloading crowd is saying that I don't believe it is,
in itself, nearly so damaging as he thinks, and that in ANY case the
online paradigm is here to stay, and if the companies are too dense to
get that, they'll end up dying. A buggy company did not deal with the
coming of the automobile by trying to stop automobiles, they dealt with
it by becoming auto companies.
So given his rants about the downloaders, obviously what he wants is
for no one to get anime, period. Don't download, because that's wrong.
Don't actually purchase it, because for some reason THAT'S wrong too.
Actually, everything's wrong except him, because he hates everything.
darkst...@gmail.com
> selaboc wrote:
> > Here's a hint: the word "Anime" is not synonymous with the word
> > "industry".
>
> That's like saying Disney isn't synonymous with corporation. Or movies
> aren't synonymous with industry. How does anime get made and
> distributed except by an industry?
I mean, here's the problem: You can't talk about anime anymore
without talking about the industry -- because the types of anime being
made (mostly shit, after about 2006) are being impacted by the rampant
thievery which has left the industry on the floor, left for (if not
already) dead.
That's what these guys don't get. I think a lot of them would like to
separate anime from the industry -- permanently! As in, these "fans"
own anime -- all the companies buy are useless pieces of paper with no
legal nor real value.
> Darkstar's problem is he takes the vicissitudes of the industry far too
> personally, but so do a lot of fans in other things. For example...
I take it personally because it's one of the few (sometimes guilty)
pleasures that have kept me from killing somebody.
> > One can despise the way Major League Baseball is run (to pick a random
> > example) but still like the game of Baseball and have something
> > positive to say about their favorite players or a game that they
> > recently watched.
>
> There are people out there who've become so disenfranchised by MLB that
> the only way they can say something nice about Baseball is to talk about
> Little League or its history.
If even _that_. As I said in my response, the way that MLB has
allowed the drug culture to overtake the "sport" has really killed my
love for baseball. Now, RICO Act the whole damn mess and start over.
> From my perspective, I see:
>
> 1. Darkstar-like fans can be found in any fandom.
>
> For example, I was almost as angry & vicious toward the Star Trek
> franchise during the DS9 & Voyager years when Trekkies threw the same
> accusations and slurs at me that is thrown at Darkstar. I think this is
> part of the reason I take the time to listen to him and engage him.
What it is is simple: Fandoms have a "party line". Go away from that
party line, and you become a threat to the fandom. If they think you
might become an _actual_ threat, then it can start getting really
"fun".
> I don't entirely agree with him, but I can see his point of view, and I
> do try to engage his points with reason. Unlike trolls and anklebiters,
> I find he does respond in kind. So if you want intelligent responses
> out of darkstar, start responding intelligently. I don't think most of
> you have actually provided rational arguments and facts, and I feel
> people are resorting to typical flame behaviour: insults, name calling
> and other slurs. Thus you get it returned back in full.
Here's why: They don't care. As long as they can contribute to the
millions of illegally-downloaded episodes of anime each and every week
(and the billions it costs the industry), they don't give two damnated
shits about it. The numbers do not add up, Travers. Something is
going on here. You, at least, appear to have some basis for
understanding what's going on.
> 2. Darkstar detractors seem to get their noses out of joint pretty easily.
Of course. Think: A lot of these people find anime-as-open-source to
be the future. All this "CRUNCHYROLL IS THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE!"
bullshit.
The only future I want for Crunchyroll is either it's head in jail, or
me in jail after putting said head into the hospital. I have ultimate
contempt for Crunchyroll, it's "business" model, and how they've done
things.
> Why would he upset you so much unless, on some you level, you think he
> might be right? And if you don't agree with him, and you think he's
> wrong, why get upset? Grow up!
They get upset because I'm still here and they can't do anything about
it.
That's it. The Deborah Gibson fans put up with that for about five
years. Same diff.
> Sometimes I find myself drawn into immature flame wars, but I'm grown up
> enough to just go, "He ain't worth it!" and move on. That's why I
> mostly ignored ELL and have no antipathy toward him. If you don't think
> Darkstar has a point, then just ignore him and move to the next thread.
At the end of the day, though, they have to find a way to get rid of
me before I pollute every thread that isn't "Gone", making the
newsgroup essentially unreadable for them.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Deep down I think he hates just about everything. He singles ME out as
> the epitome of the downfall of anime (as he sees it) when I'm one of the
> few who never downloaded ANYTHING, who's purchased all the anime that's
> currently in his house that has been available for purchase (I have some
> old traded VHS tapes still around, though I haven't watched any in
> years), etc. I've even testified for AOL-Time Warner against a
> filesharing company (Aimster).
I single you out because you appear to be one of those people who is
more than happy (and makes no secret of it) in watching the anime
industry die at the hands of a fanbase (of which I am certain you take
part in the illegal action too) who wouldn't buy in any real capacity
unless a gun were put to their head.
(And, when you get right down to it, that's really all which holds up
any sales-based model.)
What aggravates me is that you still don't get the fact that
fansubbing and downloading has killed the industry (past tense!). The
numbers now make it impossible for any real recovery. Frankly, one
should now question everything in the books of these anime companies,
since the numbers (which I have provided (and you have ignored) time
and time again) do not seem to indicate any real possibility for
making money for anything not named Dragonball or Naruto or Pokemon or
the other mega-franchises.
As one example, you keep rambling on that a download does not equal a
lost sale. What the fuck are you buying, then, with all the DVD's you
bought, because you certainly didn't buy the _anime_ -- you could have
that, with no legal recourse, pretty much any time you wanted (and, to
be an up-to-date anime fan, you have to steal the material)? The
anime itself is then _worthless_ -- and you're buying, at best, logo
merchandise (no different than the plushies and the skull caps and the
backpacks and the wall scrolls, etc. etc. etc.).
If the anime has any saleable value at all: A download = a lost
sale. If the anime has any saleable value at all, you have no right
to view it at all outside of authorized channels. That you can't see
that (especially) is why I single you out.
> The only thing I've done which could be even vaguely interpreted as
> "favoring" the downloading crowd is saying that I don't believe it is,
> in itself, nearly so damaging as he thinks, and that in ANY case the
> online paradigm is here to stay, and if the companies are too dense to
> get that, they'll end up dying.
Then they're dead -- short of accounting manipulation (which I would
assert is probably rampant in at least one company long since dead,
and may be in all the companies).
I mean, do you _honestly_ believe that Ouran High School Host Club
will get the amount of sales necessary to break even, especially as
fansubbed as it is? (And as many nitpick gripes as all the fans of
the show seem to have with the English dub?)
Again, this is why I single you out:
6,000,000 episodes a week downloaded through BitTorrent to US users.
(2 different surveys have come up with that figure.)
That's 310 million episodes over the year. That's the equivalent of
either about 100 million DVD single volumes, or about 24 million
season sets of 13 episodes.
The anime industry loses $24,000,000 a year for every $1 that they
consider a 13-episode series worth.
If they say $60, that's $1,440,000,000 lost to fansubbing -- at least
5 times the legitimate industry for 2007.
The damage is terminal. And the fans know it too -- and they run
roughshod over everything they can find.
That you can't see that (or even make a case for rampant fraud against
the fans -- rather than the rampant fraud they may be committing
against whoever is stupid enough to invest in them anymore) is another
reason I single you out.
> A buggy company did not deal with the
> coming of the automobile by trying to stop automobiles, they dealt with
> it by becoming auto companies.
The problem is that the companies do not have a workable model, and
any expectation of recompense blows up the main model which has about
80% of the anime "fanbase" in the "fanbase". Take away free illegal
anime, and anime loses a vast supermajority of the fanbase.
> So given his rants about the downloaders, obviously what he wants is
> for no one to get anime, period.
At this point, that's about what it's come to. Just remember that
it's not only the fault of the fansubbers, but those who underestimate
their impact. There was a time that I fell into that trap too.
> Don't download, because that's wrong.
> Don't actually purchase it, because for some reason THAT'S wrong too.
The problem is that it HAS become "wrong" for people to purchase
anime. How we got to that point is a bit of a mystery, but that would
explain the entire explosion in anime cons, anime clubs, and anime
"fandom" over the last several years. It HAS become "wrong" for
people to actually purchase anime to support the industry, because, by
the time that comes around, it's so passe that most people are at
least two generations down the road as far as anime coming out and the
like.
> Actually, everything's wrong except him, because he hates everything.
That's a much larger subject, but you're pretty close. :)
Mike
selaboc
> selaboc wrote:
> > Here's a hint: the word "Anime" is not synonymous with the word
> > "industry".
>
> That's like saying Disney isn't synonymous with corporation.
It isn't
> Or movies
> aren't synonymous with industry.
It isn't.
> How does anime get made and
> distributed except by an industry?
I suggest you look up the work synonymous. Anime is a creative
endevour funded by an industry, It is not the industry itself. That
some people don't confuse the two, is their problem.
> From my perspective, I see:
>
> 1. Darkstar-like fans can be found in any fandom.
Any such trolls/k00ks are looked down upon in every fandom. So nothing
different here.
> I don't entirely agree with him, but I can see his point of view, and I
> do try to engage his points with reason. Unlike trolls and anklebiters,
> I find he does respond in kind. So if you want intelligent responses
> out of darkstar, start responding intelligently. I don't think most of
> you have actually provided rational arguments and facts, and I feel
> people are resorting to typical flame behaviour: insults, name calling
> and other slurs. Thus you get it returned back in full.
please reread the numerous threads he's been in. People do respond to
him with facts and rational arguements (mostly in response to the
distortions of facts that he presents such as when someone was
promoted in a company such that they were taking on more
responsibilities in addition to the ones they previously has he
refered to it as them being removed/kicked out. or his continued
unfactual insistance that ADV is dead, etc). The only time he
"respsonse in kind" is when people are agreeing with him. That's a
classic troll/ankebitter/k00k. Frankly, that you keep defending the
K00k in the face of his outragous actions make you look a bit of a
K00k yourself.
> 2. Darkstar detractors seem to get their noses out of joint pretty easily.
>
> Why would he upset you so much unless, on some you level, you think he
> might be right? And if you don't agree with him, and you think he's
> wrong, why get upset? Grow up!
Bahahahahaha. Kicking a troll does not equal thinking the troll is
right, no matter how much you may wish to twist it into that. It's
stuff like that that makes you look as k00ky as him.
> Sometimes I find myself drawn into immature flame wars, but I'm grown up
> enough to just go, "He ain't worth it!" and move on. That's why I
> mostly ignored ELL and have no antipathy toward him. If you don't think
> Darkstar has a point, then just ignore him and move to the next thread.
And for the most part people around here do exactly that. There is a
reason he is in the killfile of most of this group you know (for the
rest of the group, he's just a sad little amusement, but even that
eventually wears off, which is why I don't respond to directly to his
posts nearly as often as I once did)
selaboc
> Dave Watson wrote:
> > Yes. Go back and read my posts in this thread. I challenged you to
> > tell us about something you like about anime--period. I wanted you to
> > disprove my theory that, deep down, you hate anime but love being a
> > sanctimonious wanker on Usenet newsgroups. So far, you have failed to
> > do so.
>
> He did mention his bought Ouran Host club.
He didn't say anything positive about it, even when someone suggested
he could have used that as an example for the challenge.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
darkst...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 7, 4:06 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> Deep down I think he hates just about everything. He singles ME out as
>> the epitome of the downfall of anime (as he sees it) when I'm one of the
>> few who never downloaded ANYTHING, who's purchased all the anime that's
>> currently in his house that has been available for purchase (I have some
>> old traded VHS tapes still around, though I haven't watched any in
>> years), etc. I've even testified for AOL-Time Warner against a
>> filesharing company (Aimster).
>
> I single you out because you appear to be one of those people who is
> more than happy (and makes no secret of it) in watching the anime
> industry die at the hands of a fanbase (of which I am certain you take
> part in the illegal action too) who wouldn't buy in any real capacity
> unless a gun were put to their head.
1) Your certainty is one of the annoying things to ME, as I am
well-known as being a tightass about legality -- to the point that even
my friends know that any time they mention downloading the first thing I
say is "criminal!". The only time I ever downloaded fileshared material
was when I was employed by Aimster (which is of course why I ended up
testifying against them -- insider, knew what was going on, had been
there) and one of my jobs was testing how well the system did its job.
2) No, I'm more than happy to see the industry adapt, or be rebuilt, to
handle a new paradigm.
>
> (And, when you get right down to it, that's really all which holds up
> any sales-based model.)
And this is where we part ways automatically, because I believe that
most people -- your rantings aside -- are basically decent people who
pay fair value for product, effort, or material received when given a
reasonable chance to do so. That, in fact, no business or commerce COULD
exist if the only way in which it could be transacted was under threat
of force.
My "attitude" which involves being somehow happy to promote the
downfall of a company is ENTIRELY IN YOUR HEAD, because YOU insist on
putting YOUR ludicrously dark and cynical attitudes INTO your vision of
me. I don't HAVE those attitudes. I don't even understand people who do.
I feel very sorry for those who have such attitudes, because it's
ultimately a complete waste of their lives.
>
> What aggravates me is that you still don't get the fact that
> fansubbing and downloading has killed the industry (past tense!).
It could only be past tense if there was no (nil, nada, zero, zip)
anime available for sale.
When that happens, you can talk about the industry as being killed,
past tense.
> The
> numbers now make it impossible for any real recovery. Frankly, one
> should now question everything in the books of these anime companies,
> since the numbers (which I have provided (and you have ignored) time
> and time again) do not seem to indicate any real possibility for
> making money for anything not named Dragonball or Naruto or Pokemon or
> the other mega-franchises.
Of course, the latter is really the thing that drives most
publishing-type enterprises. You have three or four star players that
provide an IMMENSE amount of income, some number of second-tier players
that make their own back and a little more, and a whole bunch of
third-class ones that never really quite make it and thus don't become
long-term players. This is true whether it's authors and publishing,
anime and the media publishing companies, or regular TV/filmmakers.
The Big Successes pay for all the lower level failures. You just budget
based on how much you expect from the big successes. If you guess wrong...
>
> As one example, you keep rambling on that a download does not equal a
> lost sale.
It does not.
What the fuck are you buying, then, with all the DVD's you
> bought, because you certainly didn't buy the _anime_
Yes I did. I chose to purchase the anime because I felt it was worth my
money.
Downloader types fall into two categories, really:
1) People who just want to view it online
2) People who like to see something first before they buy it.
The first category are not lost sales, because they would never BUY the
hardcopy in the first place. If I go around giving away copies of my
books, I **CANNOT** count those as lost sales. There's no way for me to
tell if the people who accepted a free book would actually have paid
ANYTHING for it. For all I know, once I was out of sight they dumped the
book in the trash.
FREE STUFF DOES NOT EQUATE TO SALE. This is a fundamental difference
between your perceptions and mine, and ALL of your subsequent wankery
DEPENDS on *MY* accepting YOUR point of view. And I don't. A trillion
downloads do not equate to ONE lost sale, unless you can PROVE -- not
guess, not "feel", not "think", PROVE -- that if you had no downloading
available that those same people would have purchased those trillion
copies.
The second category are not lost sales, but potential GAIN in sales,
because they intend to buy something if it looks good, but WILL NOT BUY
if they don't see the merchandise first.
> If the anime has any saleable value at all: A download = a lost
> sale.
No, it doesn't.
> If the anime has any saleable value at all, you have no right
> to view it at all outside of authorized channels.
Rights do not equate to sales.
The fact that I steal something THAT IS INFINITELY REPRODUCIBLE AT ZERO
COST (this is a key factor in the electronic download era, and why the
download issue is UTTERLY different from the issue of, say, stealing
cars) does NOT mean that (A) I would have purchased that thing if you
could have prevented me from stealing it, nor (B) that I have deprived
someone else of the opportunity of buying it (as would be the case if we
were discussing solid objects, like cars).
When someone steals a car, a watch, etc., THAT is a lost sale because
the individual, particular object they stole CANNOT BE SOLD to anyone
else. The seller must now spend the money, again, to obtain the item and
put it on display. The seller has lost time for selling the item,
potential customers have been denied the chance to see and choose to buy
the item, etc.
THIS IS NOT TRUE IN THE DOWNLOADING ERA. Downloaded "objects" are not
"lost sales" because they aren't removing the actual items for sale (the
DVDs) from the market.
You therefore cannot equate them with lost sales. They do not carry
with them the costs of lost sales, neither for the seller nor the other
buyers.
> That you can't see
> that (especially) is why I single you out.
That you can't understand the above is why I laugh at you, and pity you
-- and the RIAA, and the MPAA. Though THEY have a vested interest in
calling them "lost sales" as such claims get them more money, and are
much easier than actually admitting that -- despite being warned that
this would happen as early as 1991, when I mailed THREE of the major
labels and described how this would happen -- they totally screwed up
and have failed to adapt to the online market, and may have to
completely change their market model.
>
>> The only thing I've done which could be even vaguely interpreted as
>> "favoring" the downloading crowd is saying that I don't believe it is,
>> in itself, nearly so damaging as he thinks, and that in ANY case the
>> online paradigm is here to stay, and if the companies are too dense to
>> get that, they'll end up dying.
>
> Then they're dead -- short of accounting manipulation (which I would
> assert is probably rampant in at least one company long since dead,
> and may be in all the companies).
That's your belief. If they fail to adapt, they are dead, yes. But I
suspect some of them will survive because they WILL adapt, or --
possibly -- discover that the old paradigm will support them well enough
to keep going for a while.
>
> I mean, do you _honestly_ believe that Ouran High School Host Club
> will get the amount of sales necessary to break even, especially as
> fansubbed as it is?
No idea. Never seen the show; what I've heard of it sounds totally
unappealing.
> Again, this is why I single you out:
>
> 6,000,000 episodes a week downloaded through BitTorrent to US users.
> (2 different surveys have come up with that figure.)
>
> That's 310 million episodes over the year. That's the equivalent of
> either about 100 million DVD single volumes, or about 24 million
> season sets of 13 episodes.
>
> The anime industry loses $24,000,000 a year for every $1 that they
> consider a 13-episode series worth.
No. The industry loses not a penny for all those downloads. In fact,
it's GAINED at least a few dollars because the fansubber/uploaders have
to have purchased at least one DVD in order to do their
EEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil work.
Downloads are only lost sales to EEEeeeeeevil Companies and
organizations like the RIAA, who know perfectly well that they're not
actually lost sales, but if they can successfully CLAIM them as lost
sales then they can WRITE OFF ALL OF THEIR PROFITS.
>
> If they say $60, that's $1,440,000,000 lost to fansubbing -- at least
> 5 times the legitimate industry for 2007.
And if the legitimate industry is still making 1/5, it's still alive.
If it makes 1/10th, it's still alive.
You seem to be arguing that (based on the delusional concept that if
you could stop downloading, then all the downloaded copies would
suddenly become purchases) because the industry in your fantasy SHOULD
be bigger than it actually is, then the real life industry is dying.
This is very funny. It's wrong, but very funny.
>> A buggy company did not deal with the
>> coming of the automobile by trying to stop automobiles, they dealt with
>> it by becoming auto companies.
>
> The problem is that the companies do not have a workable model,
Most of them haven't been working very hard to FIND one.
and
> any expectation of recompense blows up the main model which has about
> 80% of the anime "fanbase" in the "fanbase". Take away free illegal
> anime, and anime loses a vast supermajority of the fanbase.
The ones who weren't paying to begin with, you mean? The ones who
HAVEN'T been supporting the industry? As opposed to the ones who HAVE
been paying, which is what really counts if you measure the size of the
industry?
Hint: The ACTUAL sales figures come from either the real fans who NEVER
download, or the Group 2 downloaders. The other group IS NOT EVEN
VAGUELY RELEVANT to measuring the trend up, or trend down, of the
industry, because THEY NEVER DID PAY MONEY, AND NEVER WOULD. Only those
who have money, and wanted to spend it, and DID spend it, matter.
>
>> So given his rants about the downloaders, obviously what he wants is
>> for no one to get anime, period.
>
> At this point, that's about what it's come to. Just remember that
> it's not only the fault of the fansubbers, but those who underestimate
> their impact. There was a time that I fell into that trap too.
>
>> Don't download, because that's wrong.
>> Don't actually purchase it, because for some reason THAT'S wrong too.
>
> The problem is that it HAS become "wrong" for people to purchase
> anime.
No, it hasn't. I purchase it whenever I come across something I think
I'd like. That's the right thing to do: you like something, you buy it.
>> Actually, everything's wrong except him, because he hates everything.
>
> That's a much larger subject, but you're pretty close.
And this explains you perfectly. You're a strange, sad little man. You
have my pity. Farewell!
Dave Watson
Nothing praising Beck, either. He could have given reasons why he
bought these (despite both being released here by FUNimation, a
company he derides as trying to get a monopoly on anime in North
America), but it seems like the only colours in his (pathetic little)
world are black and horseshit green/brown.
Watson.
selaboc
On Nov 7, 8:34 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Downloader types fall into two categories, really:
>
> 1) People who just want to view it online
> 2) People who like to see something first before they buy it.
There's actually a third type, though I understand why you simplified
it to just 2, as dorkstar seems to think that only the third type
exists and that's
3) people who would have bought if they didn't download it for free.
The problem is noone knows the size of each of the three types
relative to each other. I suspect the "never would have bought
regardless" are the largest of the three types, but as they are the
irrelevant ones it really comes down to which is larger of the other
two. If it's "the download than buy group", the industry is actually
gaining sales not losing them (a concept dorkstar will never
understand), whereas if it's the "would have bought if didn't
download" group, then and only then could it be said that the industry
has a net loss of sales to downloading. but as the relative size of
the three groups is unknown, the amount of that loss would also be
unknown and no matter howmany questionable surveys (see the article
that was posted in one of these threads about where the RIAA got their
numbers about loss to piracy) one can quote will ever be able to tell
you that.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Well stated Sea Wasp, just one nitpick
>
> On Nov 7, 8:34 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> Downloader types fall into two categories, really:
>>
>> 1) People who just want to view it online
>> 2) People who like to see something first before they buy it.
>
> There's actually a third type, though I understand why you simplified
> it to just 2, as dorkstar seems to think that only the third type
> exists and that's
>
> 3) people who would have bought if they didn't download it for free.
>
> The problem is noone knows the size of each of the three types
> relative to each other. I suspect the "never would have bought
> regardless" are the largest of the three types, but as they are the
> irrelevant ones it really comes down to which is larger of the other
> two. If it's "the download than buy group", the industry is actually
> gaining sales not losing them (a concept dorkstar will never
> understand), whereas if it's the "would have bought if didn't
> download" group, then and only then could it be said that the industry
> has a net loss of sales to downloading.
And even then, it's really only a net loss if the third group is mostly
composed of "USED to buy it until they could download it", rather than
"never DID buy it because I never heard of it until I started downloading".
Rob Kelk
wrote:
>selaboc wrote:
>> Here's a hint: the word "Anime" is not synonymous with the word
>> "industry".
>
>That's like saying Disney isn't synonymous with corporation.
Disney isn't synonymous with corporation. Disney is an example of a
corporation. "Synonymous" (identity) is not "example" (subset).
> Or movies
>aren't synonymous with industry. How does anime get made and
>distributed except by an industry?
In any number of ways. Come up to the Ottawa International Animation
Festival next year for examples of creating animation without an
animation industry; they show days of good non-industry animation each
year. Or, if you can't wait that long, take a look at how "Voices of a
Distant Star" was created.
As for distribution, there are plenty of different ways to distribute
intellectual property through the parcel services or on the Internet.
Some of them even work.
<snip>
> From my perspective, I see:
>
>1. Darkstar-like fans can be found in any fandom.
>
>For example, I was almost as angry & vicious toward the Star Trek
>franchise during the DS9 & Voyager years when Trekkies threw the same
>accusations and slurs at me that is thrown at Darkstar. I think this is
>part of the reason I take the time to listen to him and engage him.
>
>I don't entirely agree with him, but I can see his point of view, and I
>do try to engage his points with reason. Unlike trolls and anklebiters,
>I find he does respond in kind. So if you want intelligent responses
>out of darkstar, start responding intelligently.
I tried that before I got so fed up with him that I suggested killfiling
his posts. It didn't work.
You say you've tried engaging him (in dialogue, presumably). Has he
actually entered into a dialogue with you, or has he merely continued to
repeat his initial position?
> I don't think most of
>you have actually provided rational arguments and facts, and I feel
>people are resorting to typical flame behaviour: insults, name calling
>and other slurs. Thus you get it returned back in full.
>
>2. Darkstar detractors seem to get their noses out of joint pretty easily.
>
>Why would he upset you so much unless, on some you level, you think he
>might be right? And if you don't agree with him, and you think he's
>wrong, why get upset? Grow up!
Because he's spreading untruths, even after being called on it and being
pointed at evidence that refutes his untruths. Untruths need to be
countered lest somebody believe them.
(I'd offer another, substantially more evil, example of this sort of
behaviour that had extremely worse consequences, but then I'd have to
call Godwin on myself.)
>Sometimes I find myself drawn into immature flame wars, but I'm grown up
>enough to just go, "He ain't worth it!" and move on. That's why I
>mostly ignored ELL and have no antipathy toward him. If you don't think
>Darkstar has a point, then just ignore him and move to the next thread.
On this, we can agree...
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"Aggresive killfiling. I highly recommend it. It isn't personal;
there's just a limited number of hours in the day."
- Russ Allbery (<http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>), in message
<yl66l68...@windlord.stanford.edu>
selaboc
True, they would actually have to be aware of its existance before
they could be considered a potential buyer.
selaboc
> >I don't entirely agree with him, but I can see his point of view, and I
> >do try to engage his points with reason. Unlike trolls and anklebiters,
> >I find he does respond in kind. So if you want intelligent responses
> >out of darkstar, start responding intelligently.
>
> I tried that before I got so fed up with him that I suggested killfiling
> his posts. It didn't work.
>
> You say you've tried engaging him (in dialogue, presumably). Has he
> actually entered into a dialogue with you, or has he merely continued to
> repeat his initial position?
from what I've seen in the threads, TN's "intelligence dialogue"
consists of TN agreeing with dorkstar's position and then dorkstar
being civil to him in return.
Giovanni Wassen
> Downloader types fall into two categories, really:
>
> 1) People who just want to view it online
> 2) People who like to see something first before they buy it.
I'm a #2, but I don't buy eveything that I download and watch. Only the
things I think are worth buying and rewatching.
Travers Naran
>
> from what I've seen in the threads, TN's "intelligence dialogue"
> consists of TN agreeing with dorkstar's position and then dorkstar
Thank you for demonstrating your childishness and how you egg Darkstar
on and encourage him.
> being civil to him in return.
From my perspective, you guys seem to be the irrational ones ignoring
the very words from the mouths of Ledford and Fukunaga. They have said
they are struggling, and that they're struggling to find new ways to
survive because of fansubs. They even had that industry-fansub panel.
If Darkstar's position that fansubs are hurting anime companies is
false, why does the industry agree with him? Because they're hiding
their own incompetence? If so, what stupid things did they do?
As Darkstar said, there is a party-line in fandom, and you guys are the
self-appointed guardians of it.
I agree with him sometimes, but I also disagree with him. I have said
to him: anime (the industry) will survive, but it will look very
different from what we've seen before. For example, Aria was a sub-only
release. That would have been unthinkable 5 years ago!
The only rebuttals I've seen to Darkstar's arguments are pretty weak:
* "The companies were just stupid businessmen!" (at least here some
effort was made to back that point up)
* "Fansubs could not possibly be hurting anime production!"
* "Dorkstar is just a troll and wanker! A nutter!"
* "The companies are still around and releasing!" -- Yes, and GM is
still selling cars. Your point?
I do feel sorry for Darkstar because he has strong feelings about the
situation, and all he can really get is scorn and derision. But that is
USENET. I've seen this same pattern for 20+ years (I've been on-line
far too long -___-).
I guess I see myself as trying to convince Darkstar to be a little more
patient: encouraging him to tone down the invective, and articulate his
reasoning. And I'm also trying to encourage the rest of you to see
beyond his anger and see his arguments.
The anime industry has now entered its crunch time, and it can either
collapse or be reborn. But I think the fans need to start asking
themselves hard questions about what the role of fansubs should be in
this new future.
All I see are hate, insults and denial being thrown back and forth and
no real discussion.
selaboc
> you guys seem to be the irrational ones ignoring
> the very words from the mouths of Ledford and Fukunaga.
No one has ever ingored thier words, we just don't ascribe to them the
doom and gloom that dorkstar and you do.
> They have said
> they are struggling, and that they're struggling to find new ways to
> survive because of fansubs.
struggling not equal DEAD DEAD DEAD.
> As Darkstar said, there is a party-line in fandom, and you guys are the
> self-appointed guardians of it.
And here you show who the real irrational ones are when you buy into
dorkstars delusions like that.
> The only rebuttals I've seen to Darkstar's arguments are pretty weak:
Then I suggest you reread the threads and take you blinders off before
you do, because you'll find many instances of Dorkstar spout some
untruth or distortion of the truth only to be rebutt with Facts (such
as when he claim someone was kickedout/removed from a company when the
actual facts where that they were promoted but still retained
responsibilities in the very area that he was claiming they were
kicked out of) to which he would not respond with anything but a
repeat of his untruths. But there comes a time when you realize no
matter how many facts you bring to the table or how many times you
point out that the distorted view of the news he presents does not
match what the actual news articles said, that the guy just refuses to
listen to and discuss them like a rational human being would.
> I do feel sorry for Darkstar because he has strong feelings about the
> situation, and all he can really get is scorn and derision.
He brings it on himself with his constant streams of untruths and
distortions, always painting the most negative picture of any new
story no matter how far from the actual fact that painting takes him
(the promotion = kickedout being a particularily memorable one)
> All I see are hate, insults and denial being thrown back and forth and
> no real discussion.
Dorkstar isn't interested in discussion, as he's said so numerous
times. to him discussion means agreement with what the other guy says.
It doesn't, but he has refused to listen when anyone tries to explain
that to him or tries to present him with any facts that don't fit his
gloom and doom worldview.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> Downloader types fall into two categories, really:
>>
>> 1) People who just want to view it online
>> 2) People who like to see something first before they buy it.
>
> I'm a #2, but I don't buy eveything that I download and watch. Only the
> things I think are worth buying and rewatching.
>
Of course. Which still makes you a net GAIN in sales.
Travers Naran
> On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 05:57:11 GMT, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >selaboc wrote:
> >> Here's a hint: the word "Anime" is not synonymous with the word
> >> "industry".
>
> >That's like saying Disney isn't synonymous with corporation.
>
> Disney isn't synonymous with corporation. Disney is an example of a
> corporation. "Synonymous" (identity) is not "example" (subset).
You're just playing name games now. Disney is a corporation. If you
love the animation Disney puts out, you gotta care about the Disney
corporation.
And that's my point: the vast majority of anime fans love is produced
by an industry. Hundreds of people with families to support and rent
to pay. People are paid by you exchanging cash for anime DVDs.
If you love anime, you have to care about the industry that makes it.
> > Or movies
> >aren't synonymous with industry. How does anime get made and
> >distributed except by an industry?
>
> In any number of ways. Come up to the Ottawa International Animation
> Festival next year for examples of creating animation without an
> animation industry; they show days of good non-industry animation each
Are they producing 26 1/2 hour episodes per year? Those shorts can
take 2-3 years for a simple 30 minute animation. It's not even
comparable to, say, Full Metal Alchemist. When fans can produce 26
1/2 hour episodes per year for free, I might find your analogy valid.
> year. Or, if you can't wait that long, take a look at how "Voices of a
> Distant Star" was created.
I had, and was deeply impressed with what he was able to do. But
there's this small fly in the ointment:
From the Wikipedia article for "The Place Promised In Our Early Days":
"Unlike the previous film which was largely created by Makoto on his
own, Kumo no Mukou was a full scale production as reflected by the
better animation quality and the longer overall length. "
Do you want Star Wars or Clerks? Clerks is a good movie, but would
you be willing to give up NEVER seeing Lord of the Rings or Star Wars-
quality films in exchange for more movies like Clerks?
The quality animation and the sheer QUANTITY you've enjoyed over the
last 20 years has come from an INDUSTRY, not fans.
> As for distribution, there are plenty of different ways to distribute
> intellectual property through the parcel services or on the Internet.
> Some of them even work.
I agree, which has been the heart of my arguments with Darkstar. I
think the anime industry will learn to embrace YouTube like solutions,
but when anime becomes more dependent on on-line ad sales, will anime
stay the same? Will it become better or worse? I don't know.
> >I don't entirely agree with him, but I can see his point of view, and I
> >do try to engage his points with reason. Unlike trolls and anklebiters,
> >I find he does respond in kind. So if you want intelligent responses
> >out of darkstar, start responding intelligently.
>
> I tried that before I got so fed up with him that I suggested killfiling
> his posts. It didn't work.
If you wanted him to go away, no it won't work. But if his posts
anger you, isn't that _your_ problem, not his?
> You say you've tried engaging him (in dialogue, presumably). Has he
> actually entered into a dialogue with you, or has he merely continued to
> repeat his initial position?
I find he has. I've taken some of our conversations off-line to
private e-mail because I find when he isn't being name called, he's
surprisingly open minded. I find he listens to my arguments and
reasoning and can at least say, "I can't see it happening that way,
but I can see why you see it that way."
> >Why would he upset you so much unless, on some you level, you think he
> >might be right? And if you don't agree with him, and you think he's
> >wrong, why get upset? Grow up!
>
> Because he's spreading untruths, even after being called on it and being
> pointed at evidence that refutes his untruths. Untruths need to be
> countered lest somebody believe them.
>
> (I'd offer another, substantially more evil, example of this sort of
> behaviour that had extremely worse consequences, but then I'd have to
> call Godwin on myself.)
A lot of people promote untruths on USENET, and I can understand the
need to counter them, but it's only anime -- it's not holocaust
denial. So why get upset by it?
But the heart of this flame war is that some people don't want to hear
unpleasant truths, and there are unquestionable facts. Darkstar gets
angry when people deny these basic facts:
* Anime DVD sales are down year-to-year
* Anime fan conventions are GROWING, so it's not the audience that's
shrinking
* Anime companies have all openly said they are hurting financially.
* The same companies are greatly concerned about piracy, and the
companies do believe fansubbing is a major cause of their financial
woes.
(Whether you believe the anime companies is another matter
entirely :-)).
I think this is a topic that's worth discussing in the open and fandom
should really do some soul searching about its relationship to the
people who produce anime.
Darkstar, as he's said, is very passionate about anime and is angered
to the core by what he sees as a callous attitude by fans.
Unfortunately this causes people to yell at each other instead of
talking with each other.
> >Sometimes I find myself drawn into immature flame wars, but I'm grown up
> >enough to just go, "He ain't worth it!" and move on. That's why I
> >mostly ignored ELL and have no antipathy toward him. If you don't think
> >Darkstar has a point, then just ignore him and move to the next thread.
>
> On this, we can agree...
Which is for the best. I try to encourage Darkstar not to take these
things so personally, and it helps when people stop the flame wars and
either chose to engage him or at least move on and don't make things
worse.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On Nov 7, 6:27 am, robk...@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk) wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 05:57:11 GMT, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> selaboc wrote:
>>>> Here's a hint: the word "Anime" is not synonymous with the word
>>>> "industry".
>>> That's like saying Disney isn't synonymous with corporation.
>> Disney isn't synonymous with corporation. Disney is an example of a
>> corporation. "Synonymous" (identity) is not "example" (subset).
>
> You're just playing name games now. Disney is a corporation. If you
> love the animation Disney puts out, you gotta care about the Disney
> corporation.
No, you don't.
I enjoy many books. Some of them are by people I care about. Others are
by people who are right bastards.
Product is utterly disjoint in terms of "caring" or "liking" from the
producers of said product.
Travers Naran
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> Travers Naran wrote:
>
> > You're just playing name games now. Disney is a corporation. If you
> > love the animation Disney puts out, you gotta care about the Disney
> > corporation.
>
> No, you don't.
>
> I enjoy many books. Some of them are by people I care about. Others are
> by people who are right bastards.
True enough, but if you want more books you like from that person,
then you gotta care about that person's health, no?
Are you happy with the anime you have and can live with never seeing
another new episode of anime ever again?
> Product is utterly disjoint in terms of "caring" or "liking" from the
> producers of said product.
That is exactly Darkstar's complaint about anime fans.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On Nov 7, 12:49 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> Travers Naran wrote:
>>
>>> You're just playing name games now. Disney is a corporation. If you
>>> love the animation Disney puts out, you gotta care about the Disney
>>> corporation.
>> No, you don't.
>>
>> I enjoy many books. Some of them are by people I care about. Others are
>> by people who are right bastards.
>
> True enough, but if you want more books you like from that person,
> then you gotta care about that person's health, no?
Not particularly, as it's not something I have control over. That's HIS
job, so to speak. My *ONLY* obligation to him is to have paid for the
book that I like. NOT to pay for other books of his that, for instance,
I might have looked over in the store or library and, after reading them
or parts of them, decided were not worth my while.
If I *like* him then I would care about his health considerably more.
>
> Are you happy with the anime you have and can live with never seeing
> another new episode of anime ever again?
>
>> Product is utterly disjoint in terms of "caring" or "liking" from the
>> producers of said product.
>
> That is exactly Darkstar's complaint about anime fans.
Then Dorkstar has a stupid idea about what commerce is all about.
You are a company. You provide me with something I like.
If you provide ENOUGH of us with something we like enough, you will
make enough money to keep doing that.
If you don't, or you do things that are stupid to torpedo your own
business (see RIAA, MPAA, etc.), you'll die. We may regret that we lost
the stuff you produce, but YOU aren't part of what we regret, since you
did unto yourself.
Does ANYONE (not employed by the company, or looking at a VERY small
company that they know members of personally) really care about "a company"?
Maybe they do. I don't know. I suppose it COULD be the same kind of
incomprehensible thing of liking and following "a baseball team".
Rob Kelk
<tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Nov 7, 6:27 am, robk...@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk) wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 05:57:11 GMT, Travers Naran <tna...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >selaboc wrote:
>> >> Here's a hint: the word "Anime" is not synonymous with the word
>> >> "industry".
>>
>> >That's like saying Disney isn't synonymous with corporation.
>>
>> Disney isn't synonymous with corporation. Disney is an example of a
>> corporation. "Synonymous" (identity) is not "example" (subset).
>
>You're just playing name games now.
No, I'm correcting your mistaken definition of the word "synonymous".
> Disney is a corporation.
So is Exxon. So is Burger King. In all three cases, so what?
> If you
>love the animation Disney puts out, you gotta care about the Disney
>corporation.
>
>And that's my point: the vast majority of anime fans love is produced
>by an industry. Hundreds of people with families to support and rent
>to pay. People are paid by you exchanging cash for anime DVDs.
Or anime goods, or anime CDs, or manga that the anime was based on. Or,
for that matter, legal downloads of anime.
>If you love anime, you have to care about the industry that makes it.
No, I don't have to care about anything other than the end product.
(What I do or do not care about is another matter; what you say I need
to care about is, IMHO, mistaken.)
>> > Or movies
>> >aren't synonymous with industry. How does anime get made and
>> >distributed except by an industry?
>>
>> In any number of ways. Come up to the Ottawa International Animation
>> Festival next year for examples of creating animation without an
>> animation industry; they show days of good non-industry animation each
>
>Are they producing 26 1/2 hour episodes per year? Those shorts can
>take 2-3 years for a simple 30 minute animation. It's not even
>comparable to, say, Full Metal Alchemist. When fans can produce 26
>1/2 hour episodes per year for free, I might find your analogy valid.
Who said anything about "fans", or full-length series, or "for free"?
You're moving the goalposts here.
(And a large fraction of anime series lately, possibly the majority,
have been 12 or 13 episodes, not 26...)
>> year. Or, if you can't wait that long, take a look at how "Voices of a
>> Distant Star" was created.
>
>I had, and was deeply impressed with what he was able to do. But
>there's this small fly in the ointment:
>
>From the Wikipedia article for "The Place Promised In Our Early Days":
>"Unlike the previous film which was largely created by Makoto on his
>own, Kumo no Mukou was a full scale production as reflected by the
>better animation quality and the longer overall length. "
>
>Do you want Star Wars or Clerks? Clerks is a good movie, but would
>you be willing to give up NEVER seeing Lord of the Rings or Star Wars-
>quality films in exchange for more movies like Clerks?
I've never seen LotR, and I didn't think much of the more recent (i.e.
industry-produced) SW. So I guess I'll take Clerks. (And I thought
Clerks was a better movie than Dogma; there's another data point against
industry-created entertainment.)
>The quality animation and the sheer QUANTITY you've enjoyed over the
>last 20 years has come from an INDUSTRY, not fans.
There's "fans" again. Who said anything about them?
Also, you're collapsing the possibilities to two points: fan-created
work and industry-created work. Those are two extremes on a spectrum of
possible sources, not the only possible sources.
>> As for distribution, there are plenty of different ways to distribute
>> intellectual property through the parcel services or on the Internet.
>> Some of them even work.
>
>I agree, which has been the heart of my arguments with Darkstar. I
>think the anime industry will learn to embrace YouTube like solutions,
>but when anime becomes more dependent on on-line ad sales, will anime
>stay the same? Will it become better or worse? I don't know.
>
>> >I don't entirely agree with him, but I can see his point of view, and I
>> >do try to engage his points with reason. Unlike trolls and anklebiters,
>> >I find he does respond in kind. So if you want intelligent responses
>> >out of darkstar, start responding intelligently.
>>
>> I tried that before I got so fed up with him that I suggested killfiling
>> his posts. It didn't work.
>
>If you wanted him to go away, no it won't work. But if his posts
>anger you, isn't that _your_ problem, not his?
I never said his posts angered me. I said I got fed up with him.
There's a substantial difference between the words and the writer.
I also told him what he'd have to do to alleviate that anger; in short,
he'd have to post intelligently. He has specifically refused to do so.
>> You say you've tried engaging him (in dialogue, presumably). Has he
>> actually entered into a dialogue with you, or has he merely continued to
>> repeat his initial position?
>
>I find he has. I've taken some of our conversations off-line to
>private e-mail because I find when he isn't being name called, he's
>surprisingly open minded. I find he listens to my arguments and
>reasoning and can at least say, "I can't see it happening that way,
>but I can see why you see it that way."
Well, I can't see that private e-mail (it is, by definition, private).
I have to go by what he posts pubicly.
>> >Why would he upset you so much unless, on some you level, you think he
>> >might be right? And if you don't agree with him, and you think he's
>> >wrong, why get upset? Grow up!
>>
>> Because he's spreading untruths, even after being called on it and being
>> pointed at evidence that refutes his untruths. Untruths need to be
>> countered lest somebody believe them.
>>
>> (I'd offer another, substantially more evil, example of this sort of
>> behaviour that had extremely worse consequences, but then I'd have to
>> call Godwin on myself.)
>
>A lot of people promote untruths on USENET, and I can understand the
>need to counter them, but it's only anime -- it's not holocaust
>denial. So why get upset by it?
Emotional responses such as "getting upset" are, by definition,
irrational. Asking "why" is easy; explaining why is more difficult.
But I'll try: While I know the "slippery slope" arguement is not always
valid, I still fear (emotional response) that it might be valid in some
cases, and thus I counter it in this sort of situation. Make of that
what you will, but you probably won't change my mind about it.
>But the heart of this flame war is that some people don't want to hear
>unpleasant truths, and there are unquestionable facts.
I question *all* "facts"; it's the largest part of what's left of my
scientific training from back in high school. And I'm not the only one.
One of the states in the USA puts "Show Me" on their licence plates;
that's the same outlook.
> Darkstar gets
>angry when people deny these basic facts:
>
>* Anime DVD sales are down year-to-year
>* Anime fan conventions are GROWING, so it's not the audience that's
>shrinking
>* Anime companies have all openly said they are hurting financially.
>* The same companies are greatly concerned about piracy, and the
>companies do believe fansubbing is a major cause of their financial
>woes.
>(Whether you believe the anime companies is another matter
>entirely :-)).
Please point out any post where anyone has denied those facts.
The problem is that darkstar extrapolates from those facts into
suppositions, then treats those suppositions as facts, then refuses to
look at evidence that undermines or contradicts his suppositions. In
his posts, fansubs and only fansubs are responsible for all of these
things:
* Anime DVD sales are down, yes, but he refuses to even consider the
facts that anime DVDs are more expensive than other DVDs, or that the
economy has slowed, or that anime as a mass-market fad may have once
again run its course, or that anime has been available on TV for years
(which indicates that the fad hasn't yet run its course, yes), or that
fans aren't replacing their DVDs at the same rate they replaced their
VHS tapes because DVDs don't wear out as quickly. He acts as if it's
only because of fansubs.
* Anime fan conventions have been growing (I don't know whether they
still are; I haven't seen this year's numbers yet), but he doesn't
allow for the fact that anime has been available on TV for years. He
acts as if it's it's only because of fansubs.
* Anime companies are in financial trouble, but so are all other
entertainment companies that continue to operate under 20th-century
business practices. He ignored this no matter how many times it was
pointed out to him, and attributed the current anime downturn to
fansubs.
* The *people from the creative side of* the anime companies are greatly
concerned about piracy, and *some of them* do believe fansubbing is a
major cause of their financial woes. However, I haven't seen anybody
from the financial side of the companies make any statements about
this. This hasn't stopped darkstar from accepting the word of people
who haven't seen the books that the companies are in trouble because
of fansubs. In the posts that I read before I killfiled him, darkstar
got upset when people asked him for any proof that fansubs were the
cause of this, or of any of the other problems that he claimed they
caused. (Or, in fact, that some of the "problems" were actually
problems.)
He isn't willing to admit the possibility that he might be wrong. He
isn't willing to look at evidence that contradicts his position (such as
what Ryk has provided multiple times). He isn't willing to provide
evidence that supports his position. He isn't even willing to meet
anyone halfway.
He's entitled to his opinions. However, he has to use the same facts
that everyone else uses. He's so far refused to do so. *This* is why
people get upset with him.
>I think this is a topic that's worth discussing in the open and fandom
>should really do some soul searching about its relationship to the
>people who produce anime.
>
>Darkstar, as he's said, is very passionate about anime and is angered
>to the core by what he sees as a callous attitude by fans.
>Unfortunately this causes people to yell at each other instead of
>talking with each other.
He's presented himself here as somebody unwilling to acknowledge that
somebody else can have a valid position that doesn't agree with his.
That isn't talking.
He's been "yelling" at us all along. If he wants the flame wars to
stop, he's going to have to stop fanning the flames...
>> >Sometimes I find myself drawn into immature flame wars, but I'm grown up
>> >enough to just go, "He ain't worth it!" and move on. That's why I
>> >mostly ignored ELL and have no antipathy toward him. If you don't think
>> >Darkstar has a point, then just ignore him and move to the next thread.
>>
>> On this, we can agree...
>
>Which is for the best. I try to encourage Darkstar not to take these
>things so personally, and it helps when people stop the flame wars and
>either chose to engage him or at least move on and don't make things
>worse.
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"And frankly, if you consider shelling out cash to purchase the Ranma
1/2 manga too much of an expense perhaps you don't like Ranma 1/2
and thus shouldn't be writing fanfiction for it."
- Aaron "Epsilon" Peori ("Hybrid Theory" co-author), 25 Feb 2008
Rob Kelk
>On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:36:26 -0800 (PST), Travers Naran
><tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Nov 7, 6:27 am, robk...@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk) wrote:
<snip>
>>> You say you've tried engaging him (in dialogue, presumably). Has he
>>> actually entered into a dialogue with you, or has he merely continued to
>>> repeat his initial position?
>>
>>I find he has. I've taken some of our conversations off-line to
>>private e-mail because I find when he isn't being name called, he's
>>surprisingly open minded. I find he listens to my arguments and
>>reasoning and can at least say, "I can't see it happening that way,
>>but I can see why you see it that way."
>
>Well, I can't see that private e-mail (it is, by definition, private).
>I have to go by what he posts pubicly.
Ack! That should have been "I have to go by what he posts publicly."
Note to self: don't trust spelling-checkers.
<snip>
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"When a person can no longer laugh at himself, it is time for others
to laugh at him."
- Thomas Szasz, "The Second Sin", 1973
Captain Nerd
rob...@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk) wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:33:09 GMT, rob...@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk) wrote:
>
>
> >Well, I can't see that private e-mail (it is, by definition, private).
> >I have to go by what he posts pubicly.
>
> Ack! That should have been "I have to go by what he posts publicly."
>
> Note to self: don't trust spelling-checkers.
Actually, that would explain a lot...
Oh, and "ick" for the mental image...
Cap.
--
Since 1989, recycling old jokes, cliches, and bad puns, one Usenet
post at a time!
Operation: Nerdwatch http://www.nerdwatch.com
Only email with "TO_CAP" somewhere in the subject has a chance of being read
selaboc
> On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:33:09 GMT, robk...@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk) wrote:
> >On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 12:36:26 -0800 (PST), Travers Naran
> ><tna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>On Nov 7, 6:27 am, robk...@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk) wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >>> You say you've tried engaging him (in dialogue, presumably). Has he
> >>> actually entered into a dialogue with you, or has he merely continued to
> >>> repeat his initial position?
>
> >>I find he has. I've taken some of our conversations off-line to
> >>private e-mail because I find when he isn't being name called, he's
> >>surprisingly open minded. I find he listens to my arguments and
> >>reasoning and can at least say, "I can't see it happening that way,
> >>but I can see why you see it that way."
>
> >Well, I can't see that private e-mail (it is, by definition, private).
> >I have to go by what he posts pubicly.
>
> Ack! That should have been "I have to go by what he posts publicly."
good to know I'm not the only one making unfortunate typos in this
thread. :-)
selaboc
> >> I tried that before I got so fed up with him that I suggested killfiling
> >> his posts. It didn't work.
>
> >If you wanted him to go away, no it won't work. But if his posts
> >anger you, isn't that _your_ problem, not his?
>
> I never said his posts angered me. I said I got fed up with him.
> There's a substantial difference between the words and the writer.
TN does appear rather desperate to project emotional responses such as
anger on to those who disagree with his and dorkstars postion. Wonder
why that is?
darkst...@gmail.com
Unless you get me arrested or shot, shyeah and right, Gnat...
> darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I single you out because you appear to be one of those people who is
> > more than happy (and makes no secret of it) in watching the anime
> > industry die at the hands of a fanbase (of which I am certain you take
> > part in the illegal action too) who wouldn't buy in any real capacity
> > unless a gun were put to their head.
>
> 1) Your certainty is one of the annoying things to ME, as I am
> well-known as being a tightass about legality -- to the point that even
> my friends know that any time they mention downloading the first thing I
> say is "criminal!". The only time I ever downloaded fileshared material
> was when I was employed by Aimster (which is of course why I ended up
> testifying against them -- insider, knew what was going on, had been
> there) and one of my jobs was testing how well the system did its job.
If you did, frankly, you'd have guns to the heads of the people who
are doing this, and most of the fanbase as well! This is, really, an
"us or the terrorists" thing after the effects of fansubbing and
downloading have become so evident and obvious that the only people
left questioning it either are deniers in the first place or thieves
on top of it.
You see, that you _don't_ tells me either you are lying through your
teeth in saying this -- or you're lying through your teeth vis-a-vis
not taking part in the stuff. But the fact remains that you are a
liar one way or the other. If you weren't, you'd have taken my side
of this argument and made it a much more complete one because of your
supposed knowledge to that effect.
> 2) No, I'm more than happy to see the industry adapt, or be rebuilt, to
> handle a new paradigm.
The problem is that the new paradigm doesn't work, because -- and this
is what you continue to miss (or just plain ignore!!) -- any such
paradigm requires a BUYING fanbase. And you aren't getting that --
EVER! -- with this group. They watch anime because it's cool, and
it's cool because they can steal it for free. Plays right into many
of their MO's.
> > (And, when you get right down to it, that's really all which holds up
> > any sales-based model.)
>
> And this is where we part ways automatically, because I believe that
> most people -- your rantings aside -- are basically decent people who
> pay fair value for product, effort, or material received when given a
> reasonable chance to do so. That, in fact, no business or commerce COULD
> exist if the only way in which it could be transacted was under threat
> of force.
Nope. You're right. We part ways automatically, because most people
are NOT decent people. Not in any way or sense of the word. Anime
fandom provides a wonderful opportunity to see that in action on so
many levels, it (quite literally!) can make me sick.
The fact stands: The only reason any sales-based model works is the
iron fist of law. People only pay for things because they HAVE TO.
Given one opportunity not to have to pay for it, and you get the kind
of stuff that people joked about that the riot was for Rodney King,
and the television set in each arm was for the rioter.
> My "attitude" which involves being somehow happy to promote the
> downfall of a company is ENTIRELY IN YOUR HEAD, because YOU insist on
> putting YOUR ludicrously dark and cynical attitudes INTO your vision of
> me. I don't HAVE those attitudes. I don't even understand people who do.
> I feel very sorry for those who have such attitudes, because it's
> ultimately a complete waste of their lives.
Why is it ludicrous to believe that you are happy to promote the
downfall of a company? You are proposing something which does not
work, can not work, and will not work without the iron fist of law
driving three-quarters or more of the "fans" out of the anime fandom
in the United States.
> > What aggravates me is that you still don't get the fact that
> > fansubbing and downloading has killed the industry (past tense!).
>
> It could only be past tense if there was no (nil, nada, zero, zip)
> anime available for sale.
Give that another (what are we down to now? Six months??) short
period of time, and the fansubbing and the lack of disposable income
will do that quite nicely, thank you very much. It's already bad
enough as it is: You do realize that the latest estimates on anime
sales put 30-40% of all the anime sold in America as being sold from
WalMart...
But that day is coming, and exceedingly soon. Your best chance at not
having that happen does NOT rest with Bandai, NOT with Funimation/
Navarre, NOT with Media Blasters...
It's the PokeCompany... Viz.
> When that happens, you can talk about the industry as being killed,
> past tense.
I talk about it as killed, past tense, because they've all but had to
cut off all real creative work in anime (just saw part of the first
episode of Strike Witches, just to see how bad it is -- surprised the
event I was at wasn't shut down for airing that pedophilic crap) to
try to make enough money to survive. They are still unable to,
realistically, do so.
> > The numbers now make it impossible for any real recovery. Frankly, one
> > should now question everything in the books of these anime companies,
> > since the numbers (which I have provided (and you have ignored) time
> > and time again) do not seem to indicate any real possibility for
> > making money for anything not named Dragonball or Naruto or Pokemon or
> > the other mega-franchises.
>
> Of course, the latter is really the thing that drives most
> publishing-type enterprises. You have three or four star players that
> provide an IMMENSE amount of income, some number of second-tier players
> that make their own back and a little more, and a whole bunch of
> third-class ones that never really quite make it and thus don't become
> long-term players. This is true whether it's authors and publishing,
> anime and the media publishing companies, or regular TV/filmmakers.
#1, there are no real second-tier players in anime.
#2, for your statement to be correct, you'd pretty much have to, then,
say that, for series anime, a vast supermajority of all sales go to
about the same 15 "regular suspect" titles. Then WHY LICENSE ANYTHING
SERIES FROM THAT POINT?
> The Big Successes pay for all the lower level failures. You just budget
> based on how much you expect from the big successes. If you guess wrong...
Which is what the anime industry has done, hand over fist, for quite a
number of years now. And the reason that's happened is that they
expect the dogs who steal the material to the tune of over 6M a week
now to actually *gasp!* pay for the material.
So, "if you guess wrong", Sea Gnat, then _what_?? Finish that
statement, and you'll see why I have said what I have said, in the
tense of which that I have said.
> > As one example, you keep rambling on that a download does not equal a
> > lost sale.
>
> It does not.
And you continue to so ramble. OK, then answer the question which
follows:
> > What the fuck are you buying, then, with all the DVD's you
> > bought, because you certainly didn't buy the _anime_
>
> Yes I did. I chose to purchase the anime because I felt it was worth my
> money.
No you didn't. You already HAD the anime. (If you choose to believe
that as a collective "you", that's your choice.) You already HAD (and
consumed) the anime when you stole it! That horse is out of the
barn. You chose to purchase the DVD, then, ... why?
Why was it worth your money, since the only real idea of the "product"
is either the DVD as the product or the material on the DVD (which you
already stole beforehand) being the "product"?
> Downloader types fall into two categories, really:
>
> 1) People who just want to view it online
People who want to view it for free and don't give a shit. 80% of
anime fandom, at the very least.
> 2) People who like to see something first before they buy it.
Sorry, but unless the company grants a legal license for such a
viewing, you don't have that right -- and you never, really, did.
That's the purpose a lot of these clubs and screening events served
before anime fandom and viewing became exercises in theft, pretty much
across the board. But the fact is, minus that, you don't really get
the right to see it unless they give you that right for the exact
purpose that they propose in your point right here.
> The first category are not lost sales, because they would never BUY the
> hardcopy in the first place.
Then all who DO buy aren't buying the material on the hard copy.
They're buying the "hard copy" (the DVD) as a piece of logo
merchandise, and the material on it, therefore, financially worthless.
> If I go around giving away copies of my
> books, I **CANNOT** count those as lost sales.
And here's where you continue to miss the point to a ludicrous
extent. There's a difference between you handing out copies of the
book and people just taking them and the like. You give them of your
own free will? Then I have no argument with you. Watch as 10-20
times your paying fanbase steals you blind off the Net? That's
another place we part company.
> There's no way for me to tell if the people who accepted a free book would actually have paid
> ANYTHING for it. For all I know, once I was out of sight they dumped the
> book in the trash.
Then start checking garbage cans in the area when you have the chance
-- it would probably behoove you to stop the practice if you found so
many in there that each copy was a waste of the money to print it,
bind it, etc.
> FREE STUFF DOES NOT EQUATE TO SALE.
Again, you miss the point. You seem to think that the companies are
openly just handing out the anime, rather than the thieves stealing
it, polluting it further, and then mass-distributing it in a manner in
which the legitimate industry cannot (and could not) compete.
The companies (Japan nor here) don't authorize these fansubs. Hence,
your canard _FAILS_. It is not simply the act that the material is
free -- it's that the material is unauthorized, and, hence, should
never have been made available by the thieves.
> This is a fundamental difference
> between your perceptions and mine, and ALL of your subsequent wankery
> DEPENDS on *MY* accepting YOUR point of view. And I don't. A trillion
> downloads do not equate to ONE lost sale, unless you can PROVE -- not
> guess, not "feel", not "think", PROVE -- that if you had no downloading
> available that those same people would have purchased those trillion
> copies.
A trillion downloads mean a trillion lost sales, especially when every
one of them is illegal and renders the value of the stuff being
downloaded to nil.
Hence, I will ask you AGAIN, because you didn't get it the first
time: If "download" does not equal "lost sale", then what are you
buying when you buy the DVD?
I'll put another one out there: Why would you buy, ever??? What
purpose does buying the material serve in a wholly unenforceable
environment?
Proof: "Download = lost sale" because you don't have the right to
view the material. And if they can't control that right, they have no
functional nor legal copyright neither.
> The second category are not lost sales, but potential GAIN in sales,
> because they intend to buy something if it looks good, but WILL NOT BUY
> if they don't see the merchandise first.
Then they don't buy unless the club or con or whatever gets permission
to screen the material. You don't have the right to decide when you
have the right to see the situation. (This is why you are seeing more
and more companies providing their own downloads or streams on their
own sites.)
But you get back to the point that the fan should have all the rights
as to when, where, and how to do that -- and they didn't pay a million
bucks for that right. THAT is why I put you in the "terrorists" end
of this discussion, and scorn you accordingly.
> > If the anime has any saleable value at all: A download = a lost
> > sale.
>
> No, it doesn't.
You're right, in that it wouldn't have any saleable value at all given
your stand.
Otherwise, what are you buying?
> > If the anime has any saleable value at all, you have no right
> > to view it at all outside of authorized channels.
>
> Rights do not equate to sales.
Then there is no such thing as "rights" in that realm. No copyrights,
no rights to exclusivity to work on the material -- no rights
whatsoever. The only reason there is even such a thing as a "sale" in
this paradigm is because it is the main legal ability to gain the
right to see the material and the like.
Rights and sales are quite equivalent in this concept. Without one,
the other does not exist. Without enforcement of the rights, you have
no realistic chance at meaningful sales. Without sales, the rights
aren't worth the paper they are printed on.
> The fact that I steal something THAT IS INFINITELY REPRODUCIBLE AT ZERO
> COST (this is a key factor in the electronic download era, and why the
> download issue is UTTERLY different from the issue of, say, stealing
> cars) does NOT mean that (A) I would have purchased that thing if you
> could have prevented me from stealing it, nor (B) that I have deprived
> someone else of the opportunity of buying it (as would be the case if we
> were discussing solid objects, like cars).
Actually, given the state of the industry, you DO deny me the
opportunity of buying either that material (if downloading is so much
that the stores decide not to carry it at all) or you DO deny me the
opportunity for these people to continue their work (you can either
take that as continuation sequels, OVA's, other series, or what have
you). So your canard in (B) does not work. You would, otherwise,
have to assume the entire thing works in a vacuum.
(A) is a useless canard on its face. If you don't want to buy it, you
don't get to view it (except under premises where the right is granted
to do so). The moment you view it, you consume the product you stole,
and it doesn't matter at that point if it is infinitely reproduceable
at zero cost. The moment that's the case, all licenses and copyrights
become worthless, and, hence, all concept of "sale" of said product.
> When someone steals a car, a watch, etc., THAT is a lost sale because
> the individual, particular object they stole CANNOT BE SOLD to anyone
> else.
They can make another one. They can make many more of them (unless
we're talking the true collectors' pieces).
But, again, you're excusing the thievery conduct because of the
thievery conduct - and that's why I single you out as a particular
source of my illness with anime as a whole.
> The seller must now spend the money, again, to obtain the item and
> put it on display. The seller has lost time for selling the item,
> potential customers have been denied the chance to see and choose to buy
> the item, etc.
See above -- similar things are still lost, even if the initial
supposed "product" can be infinitely reproduced...
If that were not the case, why ever buy? It would seem foolhardy to
do so.
> THIS IS NOT TRUE IN THE DOWNLOADING ERA. Downloaded "objects" are not
> "lost sales" because they aren't removing the actual items for sale (the
> DVDs) from the market.
So you are NOT, then, buying the anime -- but buying the DVD as logo
merchandise? Can I get a commitment on that?
> You therefore cannot equate them with lost sales. They do not carry
> with them the costs of lost sales, neither for the seller nor the other
> buyers.
See above. You're wrong -- again.
Downloading of Kaleido Star cost me the ability to legally purchase
the two OVA's with the American cast on the work. Downloading of Full
Moon denied me the opportunity to legally purchase the remainder of
the series Viz cut off. (Other fans can insert Gar, Hikaru no Go,
etc. and so forth as reiterated.)
> That you can't understand the above is why I laugh at you, and pity you
> -- and the RIAA, and the MPAA. Though THEY have a vested interest in
> calling them "lost sales" as such claims get them more money, and are
> much easier than actually admitting that -- despite being warned that
> this would happen as early as 1991, when I mailed THREE of the major
> labels and described how this would happen -- they totally screwed up
> and have failed to adapt to the online market, and may have to
> completely change their market model.
There IS NO MARKET MODEL in that case, Sea Gnat! And the anime
industry shows you why... Because what you probably didn't tell those
record labels is that the pirate/thief models are immensely more
popular than their legal counterparts (in the case of downloaded
anime, a couple or more orders of magnitude), and, to actually get
people to pay money for them -- you have to actually (if you can) make
it worth it for them to do so.
Without guns to their heads, you'd get the same scenario you get for
anime now.
> >> The only thing I've done which could be even vaguely interpreted as
> >> "favoring" the downloading crowd is saying that I don't believe it is,
> >> in itself, nearly so damaging as he thinks, and that in ANY case the
> >> online paradigm is here to stay, and if the companies are too dense to
> >> get that, they'll end up dying.
>
> > Then they're dead -- short of accounting manipulation (which I would
> > assert is probably rampant in at least one company long since dead,
> > and may be in all the companies).
>
> That's your belief. If they fail to adapt, they are dead, yes. But I
> suspect some of them will survive because they WILL adapt, or --
> possibly -- discover that the old paradigm will support them well enough
> to keep going for a while.
They can't adapt, Sea Gnat.
Here's the problem: For them to adapt, they would probably have to
abandon DVD's, with the rare exception for the AAA-level download-
sales titles. Bye bye dubs (far too expensive). It'd have to be
literally simultaneous release. Tell me why fans would want to buy in
that paradigm (minus the full force of law behind it) when there is a
much more popular, much more successful, and much more reliable model
already out there in a bunch of people who should be in prison en
masse?
And if you honestly believe the old paradigm can survive for any
length of time without accounting manipulation, tell me where you get
the money, if you're Sentai Filmworks, to license anything, much less
what they supposedly have.
> > I mean, do you _honestly_ believe that Ouran High School Host Club
> > will get the amount of sales necessary to break even, especially as
> > fansubbed as it is?
>
> No idea. Never seen the show; what I've heard of it sounds totally
> unappealing.
To you, yes. But the question was NOT whether you would be one of
those sales (or two, if you decided to buy the whole series).
I reiterate the question:
> > I mean, do you _honestly_ believe that Ouran High School Host Club
> > will get the amount of sales necessary to break even, especially as
> > fansubbed as it is?
> > Again, this is why I single you out:
>
> > 6,000,000 episodes a week downloaded through BitTorrent to US users.
> > (2 different surveys have come up with that figure.)
>
> > That's 310 million episodes over the year. That's the equivalent of
> > either about 100 million DVD single volumes, or about 24 million
> > season sets of 13 episodes.
>
> > The anime industry loses $24,000,000 a year for every $1 that they
> > consider a 13-episode series worth.
>
> No. The industry loses not a penny for all those downloads. In fact,
> it's GAINED at least a few dollars because the fansubber/uploaders have
> to have purchased at least one DVD in order to do their
> EEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil work.
No they didn't. Otherwise, how do you get it up there within 36 hours
of first airing in Japan?
You, obviously, do not believe meaningful copyright exists for any of
this work -- since, for there to be meaningful copyright, the holders
of said copyright gain control over who sees it and when. Otherwise,
if I'm the Japanese television networks, I'm really questioning how
I'm going to get anything out of that time slot I just sold to that
anime producer.
> Downloads are only lost sales to EEEeeeeeevil Companies and
> organizations like the RIAA, who know perfectly well that they're not
> actually lost sales, but if they can successfully CLAIM them as lost
> sales then they can WRITE OFF ALL OF THEIR PROFITS.
Because they don't have profits at all. They have massive losses on
the basis that they do not have the meaningful rights they paid for.
Why would the fans buy, at that point?
(A similar discussion could be made on the present state of the
derivatives market wiping out every company on the planet, but you can
go over to misc.invest.stocks and Google up Darkstar7646 over there.)
> > If they say $60, that's $1,440,000,000 lost to fansubbing -- at least
> > 5 times the legitimate industry for 2007.
>
> And if the legitimate industry is still making 1/5, it's still alive.
And losing 20% a year -- and probably another 20% or so this year.
Real "alive" there. With Japan openly questioning why they're even
working with us (hint to the Japanese: you're begging us for
money)...
> You seem to be arguing that (based on the delusional concept that if
> you could stop downloading, then all the downloaded copies would
> suddenly become purchases) because the industry in your fantasy SHOULD
> be bigger than it actually is, then the real life industry is dying.
If I could stop downloading, those who don't purchase go the fuck away
- as they damned well should.
That basically slashes the fandom down to about 1/5 or far less of
current size.
At that point, then we might get a successful rescaling of the
industry, if the damage is not permanently done already (which I am
certain it is).
But I want the vast majority of the fans out -- they serve no positive
purpose.
> >> A buggy company did not deal with the
> >> coming of the automobile by trying to stop automobiles, they dealt with
> >> it by becoming auto companies.
>
> > The problem is that the companies do not have a workable model,
>
> Most of them haven't been working very hard to FIND one.
You're presuming one exists even if they did. Compete with
CrunchyShit, if you want to play that game...
> > any expectation of recompense blows up the main model which has about
> > 80% of the anime "fanbase" in the "fanbase". Take away free illegal
> > anime, and anime loses a vast supermajority of the fanbase.
>
> The ones who weren't paying to begin with, you mean? The ones who
> HAVEN'T been supporting the industry? As opposed to the ones who HAVE
> been paying, which is what really counts if you measure the size of the
> industry?
You could even take it to people who only buy small amounts and
download everything else, if you so desire.
> Hint: The ACTUAL sales figures come from either the real fans who NEVER
> download, or the Group 2 downloaders. The other group IS NOT EVEN
> VAGUELY RELEVANT to measuring the trend up, or trend down, of the
> industry, because THEY NEVER DID PAY MONEY, AND NEVER WOULD. Only those
> who have money, and wanted to spend it, and DID spend it, matter.
THEN GET THEM THE FUCK OUT, SEA WASP!!
THAT HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND???
Sue them, win, get them the fuck out of the fanbase so that MAYBE,
just _MAYBE_, there MIGHT be a workable solution.
> >> So given his rants about the downloaders, obviously what he wants is
> >> for no one to get anime, period.
>
> > At this point, that's about what it's come to. Just remember that
> > it's not only the fault of the fansubbers, but those who underestimate
> > their impact. There was a time that I fell into that trap too.
>
> >> Don't download, because that's wrong.
> >> Don't actually purchase it, because for some reason THAT'S wrong too.
>
> > The problem is that it HAS become "wrong" for people to purchase
> > anime.
>
> No, it hasn't. I purchase it whenever I come across something I think
> I'd like. That's the right thing to do: you like something, you buy it.
No. You don't do something (anything) because "it's the right thing
to do." That isn't enough in the real world, Sea Gnat.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> selaboc wrote:
>
> > from what I've seen in the threads, TN's "intelligence dialogue"
> > consists of TN agreeing with dorkstar's position and then dorkstar
>
> Thank you for demonstrating your childishness and how you egg Darkstar
> on and encourage him.
But, as I've told them before:
Isn't that what "intelligence" is considered to be, in these
circles?? "Intelligence" == (equals and is defined by) agreement??
> > being civil to him in return.
>
> From my perspective, you guys seem to be the irrational ones ignoring
> the very words from the mouths of Ledford and Fukunaga. They have said
> they are struggling, and that they're struggling to find new ways to
> survive because of fansubs. They even had that industry-fansub panel.
> If Darkstar's position that fansubs are hurting anime companies is
> false, why does the industry agree with him? Because they're hiding
> their own incompetence? If so, what stupid things did they do?
I'd be really interested in their answers, and hope they do before
they killfile you too.
What I've, at the very least, wanted these to assert is that the only
reason the industry states this position (in their eyes, from what I
read of what they have to say) is a deliberate and actionable fraud on
their part against the fans. (Fact is, they're actionably defrauding
SOMEBODY to stay afloat - the numbers do not indicate a real plausible
idea otherwise...)
I want them to admit that it is the "us vs. them" (fans vs. industry),
and that the fans hate the industry so much that they openly (if not
only in words, through their conduct) want to see it burn to the
ground.
THEN we can start talking.
> As Darkstar said, there is a party-line in fandom, and you guys are the
> self-appointed guardians of it.
On a lower level than you're asserting. I know where you're going,
but the pirates and thieves are the ones in control here -- "you guys"
basically play along because you know what you get when you do.
> I agree with him sometimes, but I also disagree with him. I have said
> to him: anime (the industry) will survive, but it will look very
> different from what we've seen before. For example, Aria was a sub-only
> release. That would have been unthinkable 5 years ago!
Now, it's a necessity because of the money involved.
> The only rebuttals I've seen to Darkstar's arguments are pretty weak:
>
> * "The companies were just stupid businessmen!" (at least here some
> effort was made to back that point up)
The real "stupidity" was not scorched-Earthing the fanbase and weeding
the fansubbers and downloaders -- who will never pay on any real scale
of their thievery -- out.
That is the main criticism I have with the industry.
> * "Fansubs could not possibly be hurting anime production!"
Without an accusation of rampant fraud against the fans, we all know
that canard is false.
> * "Dorkstar is just a troll and wanker! A nutter!"
When you can't attack the message...
> * "The companies are still around and releasing!" -- Yes, and GM is
> still selling cars. Your point?
They won't be much longer. They're dead too. Just as past tense. In
fact, that's a great example: How much toxic debt bullshit are they
over their heads with?
> The anime industry has now entered its crunch time, and it can either
> collapse or be reborn. But I think the fans need to start asking
> themselves hard questions about what the role of fansubs should be in
> this new future.
I think that die has been cast. That's the problem. If the role of
fansubs is reduced X, then the fandom will, correspondingly be reduced
by X*Y (Y>>1).
The only reason there still is anime out there is fansubs, because the
industry has been so snowed under that it doesn't matter what gets
legally put out anymore, in the final analysis.
Mike
selaboc
Just because someone does not think and act like you *think* (and I'm
being generous attributing that word to you) they should act does not
make them a liar. That you think it does, just shows how out of touch
with reality you are.
> > When that happens, you can talk about the industry as being killed,
> > past tense.
>
> I talk about it as killed, past tense, because they've all but had to
> cut off all real creative work in anime (just saw part of the first
> episode of Strike Witches, just to see how bad it is -- surprised the
> event I was at wasn't shut down for airing that pedophilic crap) to
> try to make enough money to survive. They are still unable to,
> realistically, do so.
Have you paid Gonzo for the priviledge of watching it? no? you fucking
hypocrite. then you're a thief no better than the ones you rail about.
> > 2) People who like to see something first before they buy it.
>
> Sorry, but unless the company grants a legal license for such a
> viewing, you don't have that right -- and you never, really, did.
Noone claims they did. However, without being able to view it, the
type 2 people described here would NOT BUY IT. If they would not buy
it with out viewing it, and the company isn't letting them view it,
then there is no sale to be lost. To lose a sale, you first would have
to have had someone who would have bought if they didn't have the
option to download.
Invid Fan
<4ca07a46-ba25-4bfd...@t18g2000prt.googlegroups.com>,
selaboc <c64...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Just because someone does not think and act like you *think* (and I'm
> being generous attributing that word to you) they should act does not
> make them a liar. That you think it does, just shows how out of touch
> with reality you are.
>
My father use to pride himself on looking at both sides of an issue
before coming to an opinion... and dismissed anyone who held a
different opinion as someone who hadn't looked at both sides. Seems we
have something similar here :)
--
Chris Mack *quote under construction*
'Invid Fan'
Dave Watson
>
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> > What the hell. One last time:
>
> Unless you get me arrested or shot, shyeah and right, Gnat...
"OOH! OOH! OOH! I'M TOUGH! I'M BAD!" No, you're tugging on your
slug again. And no one looks tough or bad jerking off in front of a
crowd.
And you're still not saying shit about why you like anime. So I still
doubt very much that you actually do.
(Rest of stalker/wanker flatulence snipped.)
Watson.
Derek Janssen
> On Nov 10, 2:46 am, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>On Nov 7, 5:34 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>
>><seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>>What the hell. One last time:
>>
>>Unless you get me arrested or shot, shyeah and right, Gnat...
>
> "OOH! OOH! OOH! I'M TOUGH! I'M BAD!" No, you're tugging on your
> slug again. And no one looks tough or bad jerking off in front of a
> crowd.
Do you want to unmask him? You've earned it, it's your right... ;)
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
darkst...@gmail.com
> On Nov 10, 2:46 am, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Nov 7, 5:34 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> > > well-known as being a tightass about legality -- to the point that even
> > > my friends know that any time they mention downloading the first thing I
> > > say is "criminal!". The only time I ever downloaded fileshared material
> > > was when I was employed by Aimster (which is of course why I ended up
> > > testifying against them -- insider, knew what was going on, had been
> > > there) and one of my jobs was testing how well the system did its job.
>
> > If you did, frankly, you'd have guns to the heads of the people who
> > are doing this, and most of the fanbase as well! This is, really, an
> > "us or the terrorists" thing after the effects of fansubbing and
> > downloading have become so evident and obvious that the only people
> > left questioning it either are deniers in the first place or thieves
> > on top of it.
>
> > You see, that you _don't_ tells me either you are lying through your
> > teeth in saying this -- or you're lying through your teeth vis-a-vis
> > not taking part in the stuff. But the fact remains that you are a
> > liar one way or the other. If you weren't, you'd have taken my side
> > of this argument and made it a much more complete one because of your
> > supposed knowledge to that effect.
>
> Just because someone does not think and act like you *think* (and I'm
> being generous attributing that word to you) they should act does not
> make them a liar. That you think it does, just shows how out of touch
> with reality you are.
No, Gnat claims to be a tight-ass on the subject of copyright and the
like. Gnat just comes across as another of these liars who only cares
about rights for themselves and doesn't really give two shits about
that the only reason *they* have the right is because *all* have the
right.
I'm having a hard enough time as it is keeping my roommate from going
off on people, and last Tuesday didn't help. As an activist, she
finds Prop 8 horrifying. That it passed, with Latinos and Blacks at
the forefront, indicates that there are a lot of Californians who feel
the same way about gay marriage as Sea Gnat does about anime and
copyright, and they are as much of liars as Sea Gnat.
The reason I left in everything that was discussed was that if this
person really wants to be believed as a tight-ass on copyright, Sea
Gnat would be supporting the Ayres' anti-downloading crusades, if not
in full support of legal actions against the fans. That this person
does not makes me question the truthfulness of the comments.
(Actually, a Hell of a lot more than just _question_ it...)
This is "us vs. the terrorists" now.
> > > When that happens, you can talk about the industry as being killed,
> > > past tense.
>
> > I talk about it as killed, past tense, because they've all but had to
> > cut off all real creative work in anime (just saw part of the first
> > episode of Strike Witches, just to see how bad it is -- surprised the
> > event I was at wasn't shut down for airing that pedophilic crap) to
> > try to make enough money to survive. They are still unable to,
> > realistically, do so.
>
> Have you paid Gonzo for the priviledge of watching it? no? you fucking
> hypocrite. then you're a thief no better than the ones you rail about.
Gonzo gave it away, moron. BECAUSE of that thievery.
(http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-07-01/bost-tv-to-post-
strike-witches-anime-in-english)
Relevant quote: " GDH, the parent company of the Gonzo studio which
is animating Strike Witches, had announced late last month that the
YouTube and Crunchyroll websites will also offer this anime online to
overseas viewers."
Because of the rampant thievery, the insolvent Gonzo (since taken over
by a Japanese capital company) handed the fans Strike Witches like
they handed them both Tower of Druaga: Aegis of Uruk and Blassreiter.
Nice try. At least it made me have to get the source as a double-
check.
> > > 2) People who like to see something first before they buy it.
>
> > Sorry, but unless the company grants a legal license for such a
> > viewing, you don't have that right -- and you never, really, did.
>
> Noone claims they did. However, without being able to view it, the
> type 2 people described here would NOT BUY IT. If they would not buy
> it with out viewing it, and the company isn't letting them view it,
> then there is no sale to be lost. To lose a sale, you first would have
> to have had someone who would have bought if they didn't have the
> option to download.
Fine, then they DON'T. That's the problem, idiot!! If they have to
steal the product to want to buy it, then they have to be considered
part of the problem rather than the solution.
And if they join the 80% of the anime fanbase filing out the door when
the lawsuits fly, then SO BE THAT TOO. This is not going to survive
this as a mainstream situation. It's not.
You seem to forget one very important point about copyright: That it
has to give functional control of who consumes the "product" only to
those who are authorized to receive said product to consume.
The only way you could defend that situation is to answer the same
questions I ask Sea Gnat:
1) What are you buying, then, when you purchase the DVD -- the anime
thereon, or the DVD as logo merchandise?
2) Why ever buy anime anyway?
Mike
Derek Janssen
>
> I'm having a hard enough time as it is keeping my roommate from going
> off on people, and last Tuesday didn't help. As an activist, she
> finds Prop 8 horrifying. That it passed, with Latinos and Blacks at
> the forefront, indicates that there are a lot of Californians who feel
> the same way about gay marriage as Sea Gnat does about anime and
> copyright, and they are as much of liars as Sea Gnat.
Uhhhh-huh. "Roommmate". :/
(No, not implying *that* quite yet, but....the roommate wouldn't happen
to OWN THE ISP ACCOUNT, would s/he?)
Derek Janssen (this is beginning to sound PRET-ty familiar...)
eja...@verizon.net
darkst...@gmail.com
> On Nov 10, 2:46 am, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Nov 7, 5:34 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>
> > <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> > > What the hell. One last time:
>
> > Unless you get me arrested or shot, shyeah and right, Gnat...
>
> "OOH! OOH! OOH! I'M TOUGH! I'M BAD!" No, you're tugging on your
> slug again. And no one looks tough or bad jerking off in front of a
> crowd.
Dave, you don't want the alternative.
Trust me. If they thought I was going to kill someone I cared about
more than life itself back in 1998, who the Hell do you think you are
to think you're going to get better than her??
That goes for any of you. Who the Hell do you think you are?
And that is a serious question and it's NOT rhetorical.
And, once again: If you think I'm that much of a troll, that's the
only two ways to get a troll off the Net once and for all. I've read
up on some of these people and the open pleasure they get from
injurious conduct (not coincidentally, doctors have actually
identified that such people have certain chemical makeups which equate
the causation of pain to others to the violent people's own
enjoyment), so simply kicking them from one ISP to another isn't going
to do it.
> And you're still not saying shit about why you like anime. So I still
> doubt very much that you actually do.
I _used to_. But weekends like last weekend (where, at an event I
attended, I saw "Lucky Star" (probably replaces Haruhi as the most
overrated show of all time -- most prescient moment was the opening,
when the four girls walla at each other) and other shows which
indicated the absolute creative bankruptcy of the genre...)) are why I
spend more time actually playing games and meeting the industry
talents than watching anime anymore. And that's because of the
thievery and those (like you) who openly support it.
I _used to_ like anime when I didn't find the anime fanbase more and
more reprehensible.
> (Rest of stalker/wanker flatulence snipped.)
You'd better be prepared to snip the stalker/wanker, if that's what
you think of it. See above question.
Mike
Derek Janssen
> On Nov 10, 11:10 am, Dave Watson <dwbeingupfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Nov 10, 2:46 am, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Nov 7, 5:34 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>
>>><seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>What the hell. One last time:
>>
>>>Unless you get me arrested or shot, shyeah and right, Gnat...
>>
>>"OOH! OOH! OOH! I'M TOUGH! I'M BAD!" No, you're tugging on your
>>slug again. And no one looks tough or bad jerking off in front of a
>>crowd.
>
> Dave, you don't want the alternative.
...What, jerking off in private? ;)
Derek Janssen (well, that's true enough, we don't)
eja...@verizon.net
darkst...@gmail.com
Nice try. I pay half of that too, right along with the rent on the
first of the month.
Mike (In fact, that's the only reason I live here -- roomie needed
someone to move in to take over when her family stabbed her in the
back financially earlier this year. I hate Riverside, California as
another one of those backwards hick suburbs of Los Angeles (like
another city my roomie used to live in, Fontana). I'd rather live on
the streets of San Francisco than live here, but something higher is
calling me to do this instead.)
Derek Janssen
>>
>>>I'm having a hard enough time as it is keeping my roommate from going
>>>off on people, and last Tuesday didn't help. As an activist, she
>>>finds Prop 8 horrifying. That it passed, with Latinos and Blacks at
>>>the forefront, indicates that there are a lot of Californians who feel
>>>the same way about gay marriage as Sea Gnat does about anime and
>>>copyright, and they are as much of liars as Sea Gnat.
>>
>>Uhhhh-huh. "Roommmate". :/
>>
>>(No, not implying *that* quite yet, but....the roommate wouldn't happen
>>to OWN THE ISP ACCOUNT, would s/he?)
>
> Nice try. I pay half of that too, right along with the rent on the
> first of the month.
>
> Mike (In fact, that's the only reason I live here -- roomie needed
> someone to move in to take over when her family stabbed her in the
> back financially earlier this year. I hate Riverside, California as
> another one of those backwards hick suburbs of Los Angeles (like
> another city my roomie used to live in, Fontana). I'd rather live on
> the streets of San Francisco than live here, but something higher is
> calling me to do this instead.)
(Is it just me, or are his "Fear me, fear me!" attempts to break
off-topic blue-sky Vanity Shtick out of the rants starting to veer
dangerously--if *usefully*--into the Too Much Information category?) ;)
Derek Janssen (juuuuust keep talking, we're Googling)
eja...@verizon.net
Dave Watson
> On Nov 10, 11:10 am, Dave Watson <dwbeingupfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 10, 2:46 am, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 7, 5:34 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>
> > > <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> > > > What the hell. One last time:
>
> > > Unless you get me arrested or shot, shyeah and right, Gnat...
>
> > "OOH! OOH! OOH! I'M TOUGH! I'M BAD!" No, you're tugging on your
> > slug again. And no one looks tough or bad jerking off in front of a
> > crowd.
>
> Dave, you don't want the alternative.
Wot, more compulsive public masturbation? Because that's all you're
doing, even in the original reply.
"I'M BAD! I'M MEAN! I'M TOUGH! FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP
GODDAMMIT FAP!!!"
Watson
Taking a break from getting back into updating Being Upfront.
Dave Watson
On Nov 10, 3:01 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
> > And you're still not saying shit about why you like anime. So I still
> > doubt very much that you actually do.
>
> I _used to_. But weekends like last weekend (where, at an event I
> attended, I saw "Lucky Star" (probably replaces Haruhi as the most
> overrated show of all time -- most prescient moment was the opening,
> when the four girls walla at each other) and other shows which
> indicated the absolute creative bankruptcy of the genre...)) are why I
> spend more time actually playing games and meeting the industry
> talents than watching anime anymore. And that's because of the
> thievery and those (like you) who openly support it.
I buy Lucky Star when I'm able to save up for it, actually. And
bought all of Haruhi. The Special Edition versions of both. Yeah,
man, I download everything and buy nothing. Try again, Stalker Dolt.
> I _used to_ like anime when I didn't find the anime fanbase more and
> more reprehensible.
So, to simplify things--you hate anime and you love being a jerkoff on
anime Usenet newsgroups. Thank you, no further questions.
> > (Rest of stalker/wanker flatulence snipped.)
>
> You'd better be prepared to snip the stalker/wanker, if that's what
> you think of it. See above question.
Look up "flatulence." Because it's the definition of your posting
history here. One, big, prolonged stretch of farting.
Watson
Off to buy a can of Lysol spray.
Rob Kelk
<dwbeing...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>Wot, more compulsive public masturbation? Because that's all you're
>doing, even in the original reply.
<snip>
Dave, we both know that you can spend your time doing something more
productive than arguing with a Usenet troll. We know this because I
have a photo of you doing something more productive than arguing with a
Usenet troll:
http://web.ncf.ca/fm536/something-more-productive.html
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"Aggresive killfiling. I highly recommend it. It isn't personal;
there's just a limited number of hours in the day."
- Russ Allbery (<http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>), in message
<yl66l68...@windlord.stanford.edu>
Derek Janssen
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:44:46 -0800 (PST), Dave Watson
> <dwbeing...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>Wot, more compulsive public masturbation? Because that's all you're
>>doing, even in the original reply.
>
> <snip>
>
> Dave, we both know that you can spend your time doing something more
> productive than arguing with a Usenet troll. We know this because I
> have a photo of you doing something more productive than arguing with a
> Usenet troll:
>
> http://web.ncf.ca/fm536/something-more-productive.html
Watson does it for the Anger--
I'm just in it because I'm more immune to trolls' own self-created
fantasy worls...And, more to the point, happen to have more specific
technical expertise how to pants them, drag them around gym tracks and
make the cry, baby, huh, gonna cry now?
Derek Janssen (and don't ask *how*, thank you, just accept the field
knowledge as encyclopedic) :)
eja...@verizon.net
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
>
> No, Gnat claims to be a tight-ass on the subject of copyright and the
> like.
No, I don't, Dorkstar. Your reading comprehension is on the level of a
4th grader, and so are your threats.
I claim to OBEY THE LAW PERSONALLY, on my own recognizance, and tell
other people that they're breaking the law.
Why that means that I should take a gun to anyone who doesn't obey the
law you have not explained. If I obey the speed limit (and I generally
do, unless it would be unsafe for me to do so), should I be reporting in
the 5,000 people who pass me on the freeway? No. It's not MY job to
police them, especially when that much disobedience indicates that the
people (who are, ultimately, the source of law -- not the police) don't
give a damn about the law.
>
> The reason I left in everything that was discussed was that if this
> person really wants to be believed as a tight-ass on copyright, Sea
> Gnat would be supporting the Ayres' anti-downloading crusades,
Not if I thought -- as I do -- that they're stupid morons for the
crusade. I don't join crusades that I think are wrongheaded, stupidly
planned out, and doomed to inevitable failure. It WON'T WORK. You can't
stuff the genie back into the bottle. You have to ADAPT, not try to bail
the tide back with a fork. If the tide is turning, you don't expect your
sand castle to stand; you find a way to use the tide.
if not
> in full support of legal actions against the fans. That this person
> does not makes me question the truthfulness of the comments.
>
> (Actually, a Hell of a lot more than just _question_ it...)
My actions are not something you can question, Dorky -- unless you just
want to ignore facts. My employment by Aimster/BuddyUSA/Pi2 (the boss
tried to play games with which companies were responsible for what) is a
matter of public record. My testimony against John Deep and BuddyUSA et.
al. (the company that created Aimster) could be found by anyone who
cared to look for it. Hell, I discussed parts of it online on Usenet
off and on.
>
> This is "us vs. the terrorists" now.
No, it's not, and only a total moron would think it is.
It's "Old Way Of Business" versus "New Technology And Generation". And
in THAT war, "Old Way Of Business" loses *EVERY* time. *EVERY* time.
There is NO example of the Old Guard managing to do more than delay the
inevitable on such things. The Industrial Revolution was BUILT on that
fact -- people TRIED to fight it, and failed. People tried to fight the
"horseless carriage", and failed. People tried to fight the cassette
tape, the VHS, the CD -- guess what, THEY ALL FAILED.
ANY attempt to maintain copyright -- or, indeed, ANY law -- HAS to rest
on the cooperation of the masses. You like to pop off about "guns"
enforcing law, but they DO NOT. This is why dictatorships quake in their
boots over the idea of popular communications that they do not control
-- because if those communications allow and convince the populace to
turn agains them, all of their guns and bombs are meaningless.
Law does not come from guns, not in the long run. It comes from the
tacit or explicit agreement of the people to abide by it.
A law that IS NOT OBEYED is a law only in name, and matters not at all.
You can't enforce a law that enough people don't care about -- and the
fact that they don't care about it is a crystal-clear signal, in a
democratic state, that the LAW is the one in the wrong.
Anytime a law comes into conflict with the change of the times, the law
will crash and burn.
Copyright and media and all related industries MUST recognize that the
era of "control" that was made possible by PHYSICAL media is pretty much
gone. If you want to maintain an industry, you have to change the way it
works to provide enough value to the consumer that they're willing to
pay you for it. This will not happen if you refuse to ENTER that arena,
and all the consumer sees is you suing people right and left without
providing what the consumer clearly wants -- easily downloadable,
high-quality copies of material for a reasonable price ($.99 per
episode, probably -- like individual songs are $.99 on iTunes).
>
> 1) What are you buying, then, when you purchase the DVD -- the anime
> thereon, or the DVD as logo merchandise?
I'm buying the legit copy of the merchandise and giving the company
that small amount of money I feel it is due for making it available.
>
> 2) Why ever buy anime anyway?
Why buy anything? Because you want it, you can, and buying it rather
than taking it is the right thing to do.
I know, that last phrase is alien to you. Your problem is that you
insist it has to be alien to everyone else, when a MOMENT'S thought on
your part would show that if that were the case, we'd never have gotten
out of the flint-chipping stage. Human beings are social animals. We
actually have INSTINCTS to "do the right thing", in terms of helping
other people. Some of us -- apparently including you -- have managed to
stomp on that instinct heavily enough that it's no longer visible, but
others haven't.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On Nov 10, 11:10 am, Dave Watson <dwbeingupfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 10, 2:46 am, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 7, 5:34 am, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> What the hell. One last time:
>>> Unless you get me arrested or shot, shyeah and right, Gnat...
>> "OOH! OOH! OOH! I'M TOUGH! I'M BAD!" No, you're tugging on your
>> slug again. And no one looks tough or bad jerking off in front of a
>> crowd.
>
> Dave, you don't want the alternative.
That you just do your ranting in private? Actually, I'm sure he would.
>
> Trust me. If they thought I was going to kill someone I cared about
> more than life itself back in 1998, who the Hell do you think you are
> to think you're going to get better than her??
Well, (A) you're about 3,000 miles away from me.
You're not even willing to bother THINKING, I'm not afraid you'll
actually get off your ass and come after anyone who's not alreayd within
arm's reach.
(B) you were a STALKER. The most pathetic of losers. The only ones who
make headlines ARE the ones who actually totally go over the edge and
try -- usually failing -- to hurt the object of obsession. And usually
the object of obsession is someone a lot more vulnerable than I am.
>
> That goes for any of you. Who the Hell do you think you are?
You can't read headers? Ryk E. Spoor, author, gamer, Usenet
personality, known as Sea Wasp for over 30 years online (and as about 60
other aliases off and on), Geek God, R&D coordinator at a high-tech
firm, holder of three patents, father of three children, and a smarter
man than any ten of you. Better looking, too, even at my worst. Note
that there is only ONE Ryk Spoor in the USA (there WERE two, but no
more), so there isn't even any question of this leading to confusion.
>
> And that is a serious question and it's NOT rhetorical.
Too bad it's also broad. Right back at you, chump: Who the Hell do YOU
think you are, and why the hell should we CARE who you are any more than
you should care who WE are? Really. Tell me. All we've ever heard from
you are claims of badassery, rants about downloaders when you clearly
DON'T understand the industry (or any industry), and similar hogwash. So
how about it? Who are YOU, and what does it matter who you are?
(note that I don't ask "What do you want?". I'm not Mr. Morden)
>
> And, once again: If you think I'm that much of a troll, that's the
> only two ways to get a troll off the Net once and for all.
If you CARE enough to bother. If the only way to really get rid of the
annoying fly is to use a bazooka, would you bother? Probably not,
especially if zoning laws in your jurisdiction frowned on such weapons
in private hands.
>
> You'd better be prepared to snip the stalker/wanker, if that's what
> you think of it.
Why? What's the wanker going to do if I don't? Just post more silly
stuff. To which I can always respond, or not, as I choose. I will
probably stop responding to you again fairly soon, as the slight
amusement is once more beginning to pall with the obvious repetition on
your part combined with your obsessive refusal to even recognize the
existence of ways of thinking that don't accord exactly with your own.
Inu-Yasha
"Rob Kelk" <rob...@deadspam.com> wrote in message
news:4918b4e...@news.individual.net...
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:44:46 -0800 (PST), Dave Watson
> <dwbeing...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>Wot, more compulsive public masturbation? Because that's all you're
>>doing, even in the original reply.
>
> <snip>
>
> Dave, we both know that you can spend your time doing something more
> productive than arguing with a Usenet troll. We know this because I
> have a photo of you doing something more productive than arguing with a
> Usenet troll:
>
> http://web.ncf.ca/fm536/something-more-productive.html
>
>
real Dave, not a clone). Hell, he looks like some guys I know, and with the
same kind of sense of humor. *_*;
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^
Heh, you won't get my picture like that, 1. I'm not certain I do anything
productive, and 2. I'm an ugly old geezer.^_____^
Inu-Yasha
"Dave Watson" <dwbeing...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1effefe6-c9e3-41dd...@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
Get some roach motels too, it will save someone from living on the streets
of San Franciso (come to think of it, The Streets of San Francisco was a
great old TV cop show, Karl Malden & Michael Douglas).
Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Rob Kelk wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:44:46 -0800 (PST), Dave Watson
>> <dwbeing...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Wot, more compulsive public masturbation? Because that's all you're
>>> doing, even in the original reply.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Dave, we both know that you can spend your time doing something more
>> productive than arguing with a Usenet troll. We know this because I
>> have a photo of you doing something more productive than arguing with a
>> Usenet troll:
>>
>> http://web.ncf.ca/fm536/something-more-productive.html
>
> Watson does it for the Anger--
> I'm just in it because I'm more immune to trolls' own self-created
> fantasy worls...
I indulge when it amuses me. You'll note I didn't reply directly to him
for quite a while, and I'll probably stop doing it again soon.
I cannot manage to maintain Terry Austin's Zen-like perpetual enjoyment
of even the most trivial and inane flamewars, alas. Or perhaps I should
be grateful, I waste enough time online as it is.
Dave Watson
> "Rob Kelk" <robk...@deadspam.com> wrote in message
> > Dave, we both know that you can spend your time doing something more
> > productive than arguing with a Usenet troll. We know this because I
> > have a photo of you doing something more productive than arguing with a
> > Usenet troll:
>
> >http://web.ncf.ca/fm536/something-more-productive.html
>
> Neat, it's nice to see real people with real faces (assuming that is the
> real Dave, not a clone). Hell, he looks like some guys I know, and with the
> same kind of sense of humor. *_*;
That is indeed the one and only me (I don't have clones; does having
Gary Numan and Devo albums in the collection count?). When Rob and I
get together and hang out, sometimes he takes his camera with him and
takes photos of various Ottawa landmarks. Being an inveterate camera
mugger, I sometimes finagle myself into the picture. The discussion
with Louis was my idea; the caption was Rob's.
Watson
Who really should whip up a coffee and get back to Being Upfront.
Derek Janssen
> Derek Janssen wrote:
>>
>> Watson does it for the Anger--
>> I'm just in it because I'm more immune to trolls' own self-created
>> fantasy worls...
>
> I indulge when it amuses me. You'll note I didn't reply directly to
> him for quite a while, and I'll probably stop doing it again soon.
He's already displaying two of the symptoms of that particular group
dependency which we shall call Tony Gaza syndrome:
1) The singling out of "favorite" posters by name, as he's concentrating
on the only posters who ever respond to him seriously anymore--
So he's changing his posts from general to private customers ("Hey,
Gnat!...Can I call ya 'Gnat' some more?") and hoping that creating a
"Comedy duo" will keep the material stretched out long enough to be
read. (He can't do it by *himself* anymore, you see!)
2) The belief that his "enemies" on the group are not his "enemies", but
merely his jolly regular-Saturday-night-thing sparring buddies who slap
each other on the thighs and verbally jostle like good manly fellows--
As particularly demonstrated by his unusual openness to diary EVERY
SINGLE aspect of his private life to us in his posts, since we are now
apparently a combined mommy/best-bud/bartender, and where he has nowhere
else to pour out his daily-diary feelings and get all his apartment,
headline, wrestling-geek and private-life matters of the moment off his
sunken chest.
(As noted by the "Roommate" joke earlier, we have the past case history
of Tony discovering quite to his undoing that his private virtual
Internet "friends" were not *ACTUALLY* his "friends" when it came to
asking for mercy or sympathy...
Ah, the innocent disillusionment and betrayal--If only we could've seen
his expression.) :)
Derek Janssen (that woulda been cool)
eja...@verizon.net
Rob Kelk
I've still got that photo of you at the wrong end of a 12-pound naval
piece, too...
>Watson
>Who really should whip up a coffee and get back to Being Upfront.
A-ha! I *knew* you had something more productive to do than arguing
with a Usenet troll!
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid! Nyyyeaaah!" - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up." - C.S. Lewis
darkst...@gmail.com
> Wot, more compulsive public masturbation? Because that's all you're
> doing, even in the original reply.
>
> "I'M BAD! I'M MEAN! I'M TOUGH! FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP
> GODDAMMIT FAP!!!"
Then do something about it.
Mike
darkst...@gmail.com
> Oh, Christ, how could I snip actually getting a question answered?
Because you didn't get it answered in such a manner as to you
orgasming over your dick getting sucked, you saw it as irrelevant.
> On Nov 10, 3:01 pm, darkstar7...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > And you're still not saying shit about why you like anime. So I still
> > > doubt very much that you actually do.
>
> > I _used to_. But weekends like last weekend (where, at an event I
> > attended, I saw "Lucky Star" (probably replaces Haruhi as the most
> > overrated show of all time -- most prescient moment was the opening,
> > when the four girls walla at each other) and other shows which
> > indicated the absolute creative bankruptcy of the genre...)) are why I
> > spend more time actually playing games and meeting the industry
> > talents than watching anime anymore. And that's because of the
> > thievery and those (like you) who openly support it.
>
> I buy Lucky Star when I'm able to save up for it, actually. And
> bought all of Haruhi. The Special Edition versions of both. Yeah,
> man, I download everything and buy nothing. Try again, Stalker Dolt.
Bull-fucking-shit. Because if you did that, you wouldn't feel the way
you do on the subject. You'd be as militant as I am, if not _worse_.
(And Sea Gnat even _MORE_ so. So, forgive me, I'm not in your
apartment...)
> > I _used to_ like anime when I didn't find the anime fanbase more and
> > more reprehensible.
>
> So, to simplify things--you hate anime and you love being a jerkoff on
> anime Usenet newsgroups. Thank you, no further questions.
OK. *leaves witness stand*
> > > (Rest of stalker/wanker flatulence snipped.)
>
> > You'd better be prepared to snip the stalker/wanker, if that's what
> > you think of it. See above question.
>
> Look up "flatulence." Because it's the definition of your posting
> history here. One, big, prolonged stretch of farting.
I know exactly what flatulence is -- every one of your damn posts.
(See, I can do it too!!)
I'm just saying snipping the flatulence is not enough.
Mike
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
We are. We're making fun of you and your public wankery.