Are you learning Japanese? Do you know Japanese?
Miaow
this language, and my interest in Anime really encouraged me to actually
study. I was wondering who else out there is trying to learn Japanese.
What sort of things do you find easy or difficult? Do you have any tips or
tricks to share? How to you go about learning grammar, the syllabaries, and
Kanji? What books or web sites do you use? Also, please email me if you
have already gone throuhg the beginning stages of the learning process and
let me know what worked for you. Thank you very much for any information!
eirias
> Text" by John Young and Kimiko Nakajima-Okano.
Avoid this book like the plauge.
It's one of the worst written and contructed books imaginable.
--
President of the Boston University Anime Club.
Manga translations for Vol 1-2 of Yokohama Shopping Diary,
Volumes 1-8 of The Violinist of Hamelin & Vol 13-14 of Berserk.
http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/translations/
Anthony J. Bryant
> > or "Learn Japanese, New College
> > Text" by John Young and Kimiko Nakajima-Okano.
>
> Avoid this book like the plauge.
> It's one of the worst written and contructed books imaginable.
Oy, that's still out there?
I went through the whole series at FSU decades ago.
Evil evil evil.
Tony
Shawn Truesdell
"Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbr...@indiana.edu> wrote in message
news:39089E9E...@indiana.edu...
I agree. I mentioned it because some (not all) of the activities contained
within are helpful. I would never think of using this as a standalone. You
need a Prof. or another Text to get any kind of use from this book, or it
will drive you nuts.
Michael Cash
>> or "Learn Japanese, New College
>> Text" by John Young and Kimiko Nakajima-Okano.
>
>Avoid this book like the plauge.
>It's one of the worst written and contructed books imaginable.
It is the text I used, many many years ago. I did part 1 through self-study and
course work, as well as part of part 2. I did a small portion of part 3 as
self-study. This and the Mizutanis' "Introduction to Modern Japanese" (which I
thought sucked) were the only texts I used.
I now (and have for many years) make my living speaking and using nothing but
the Japanese language, and read almost nothing but Japanese books. All this in
spite of having used nothing but the "worst written and constructed books
imaginable". How about that!
I thought it was a great text for people outside Japan. Entirely different
matter if you're actually in Japan, though.
>
>--
>President of the Boston University Anime Club.
>Manga translations for Vol 1-2 of Yokohama Shopping Diary,
>Volumes 1-8 of The Violinist of Hamelin & Vol 13-14 of Berserk.
>http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/translations/
Japan from the Driver's Seat
http://www.sunfield.ne.jp/~mike/
Michael Cash
"No, Mr. Cash, I didn't say your fly is open. I said
everyone can plainly see you're nuts."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
eirias
>
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:46:45 -0400, eirias <NOSPAM...@bu.edu> wrote:
>
> >> or "Learn Japanese, New College
> >> Text" by John Young and Kimiko Nakajima-Okano.
> >
> >Avoid this book like the plauge.
> >It's one of the worst written and contructed books imaginable.
>
> It is the text I used, many many years ago. I did part 1 through self-study and
> course work, as well as part of part 2. I did a small portion of part 3 as
> self-study. This and the Mizutanis' "Introduction to Modern Japanese" (which I
> thought sucked) were the only texts I used.
>
> I now (and have for many years) make my living speaking and using nothing but
> the Japanese language, and read almost nothing but Japanese books. All this in
> spite of having used nothing but the "worst written and constructed books
> imaginable". How about that!
I plan on trying to do much the same thing. If the will to learn is
there, you could learn with ANYTHING.
> I thought it was a great text for people outside Japan. Entirely different
> matter if you're actually in Japan, though.
I don't think it is.
I complained about them elsewhere recently; I'll just clip my comments
here.
These books are used at BU and at many high school Japanese programs; I
can only assume that this is because they are cheap.
'Jigoku no hon' as we refer to them, are easily the most mind-bendingly
bad textbooks I've ever used. If there's a worse Japanese text book on
the market, I don't want to use it. The irritating over-reliance of
romanji creats much confusion; for example, the book uses the 'oo' for
おう method of romanization, which is bad enough, but because everything
is in romanji, the entire class mis-spelled 'tooi.' Vocabulary is
parceled out in a seemingly random order; there are really useful words
I've never learned, and yet I know 18 words for 'manufactured goods.'
The vocabulary is taken from dialogues apparently written to demonstrate
the new grammer for the chapter; not only are these dialogues
mind-bendingly dull, but they frequently trap the authors into
explaining a concept that involves grammer they don't plan on teaching
for a few more pages. The explanations are written in a very formal
style, and badly; when I can stay awake long enough to read the
explanations, the only occasionally have the courtesy to be
comprehensible. Several minutes breaking the paragraph down into
logical components usually lets me figure it out, but the math is
killing me. Speaking of math, the books brilliant solution to the
problem of explaining keigo was massive flow-charts aided by examples
using grammer and vocab we haven't learned yet. The lack of a compiled
glossary requires us to lug around all four volumes so we can look up
'shoeshine' when they pull the word on us after two volumes of disuse.
But the two main reasons to avoid it are the romanji, which no decent
teacher will allow after the first few weeks, and the completely
arbitrary word/kanji selection, which has us learning really obscure
kanji long before we know very basic, everyday characters.
Jester
Well, I havn't really used a textbook myself, so I'll leave that up to others to
recommend, but I've been through a ton of supplementary texts, so I can tell you
about that. =)
First off, MangaJin's Basic Japanese Through Comics (volumes 1 and 2) is
a -great- book to get to learn some VERY basic (see title) Japanese idioms,
customs, basic greetings, etc. It doesn't seem like it would teach you very
much, but it handles some difficult (for me, at least) topics for the beginning
learner in a way that makes learning very easy. You won't learn much from this
book, but what you do learn will go a LONG way. Charles Eicher informed me
about a month ago that these books were out of print, but they've had them at
every book store I've been to, and I think I saw them at either amazon or
bn.com, so you should be able to find them. They're about $10 each.
Secondly, you should get a good grammar book. I'm interested in hearing
what other people recommend, but I suggest you check out "A Dictionary of Basic
Japanese Grammar," which is published by the Japan Times. This presents grammar
items in a way that makes them AMAZINGLY easy to understand. It's helped me
through some very difficult Japanese-learning times. This costs about $25, and
I don't know where you can get it from, besides Kinokuniya. The ISBN is
4-7890-0454-6. They have an intermediate version, but I haven't tried it yet.
Lastly, if you're -serious- about learning this language, a good
dictionary is essential. The earlier you get it, the better. If money's tight
for you, there's no harm in sticking with EDict while you're just starting out
-- it's an excellent program, but sooner or later you're probably going to want
to have a paper dictionary at your disposal (unless you never leave your
computer screen). =) I really don't know what the best one is for the Japanese
-learner-. I have Kenkyusha's New College J-E, which contains most of the words
I need to look up -- for the most part, it's just missing those katakanized
English words that drive me crazy.
Lastly, get yourself some reading material. Preferably something with
pictures. A picture is worth a thousand words -- often these are the same words
as the Japanese ones printed beside them that you -do not- know. It's great for
kanji learning when you see a character you just -barely- can't remember and
then you look at the picture it's referring to and everything becomes clear.
I've found that I remember words and kanji -much- better when I encounter them
like this as opposed to just simple memorization or looking it up in a
dictionary.
Well... I guess that's it from me. =)
-Ben
"The evil of this world exists only in the hearts of men..."
-Edward D. Morrison
"Sometimes I pretend I'm a circus bear..."
-My weirdo roommate
Jared Boteler
exactly very effective ways of learning the language soon after I spent only
a single school semester in a class for it. The things I think you should
really start out with (unlike I did) simply learning how to speak the
language rather than how to write it, and maybe learning katakana on the
side. I myself was stupid enough to start off memorizing hiragana and not
even touching the basics of how to speak at all. I soon afterward joined a
class and learned that, obviously, being able to speak and somewhat
understand how grammar is done is more important than knowing symbols.
Anyway, I really dont know too much myself because, like I said, I study on
my own and I have a habit of slacking off every once and a while. Does
anyone out there know of any good sites which cover conjugation and
direction of a sentence? I started learning that in the class before but I
forgot how it was done because I slacked off of learning Japanese for a few
months after the school year ended.
Other than that, I have many 'net resources as far as the language is
concerned and I would mind telling you of the links I have but at the moment
I am unable to get my hands on them. If you would like, you could reply to
this in email and I'll go ahead and send you some links once I'm able to.
Anyway, to everyone else, like I asked before, are there any good resources
on the internet you guys know of which cover conjugation and direction of a
sentences? Other than that, I would like to know of some nice
titles,prices, and or ways to get my hands on a textbook or two on Japanese.
Like I said, I only had a semester total in an actual class and I'm
beginning to need to know some guidance as far as what i need to learn next.
I would join a class right now but I moved and the school here doesnt have a
Japanese class...
Jared Boteler AKA MrHat
Miaow <mi...@mediaone.net.nospam> wrote in message
news:0U_N4.1766$6B1.107811@elnws01...
John W.
"Jared Boteler" <noth...@haydes.com> wrote:
> I study on my own and I found that my manners of studying before
werent
> exactly very effective ways of learning the language soon after I
spent only
> a single school semester in a class for it. The things I think you
should
> really start out with (unlike I did) simply learning how to speak the
> language rather than how to write it, and maybe learning katakana on
the
> side. I myself was stupid enough to start off memorizing hiragana
and not
> even touching the basics of how to speak at all. I soon afterward
joined a
> class and learned that, obviously, being able to speak and somewhat
> understand how grammar is done is more important than knowing symbols.
>
(after two years in Japan) and the people really had no concept of
speaking Japanese. They could read/write circles around me, and
probably knew more about grammar/proper structure than I did/do, but
they could barely say their names.
> Anyway, I really dont know too much myself because, like I said, I
study on
> my own and I have a habit of slacking off every once and a while.
Ah, yet another person who knows the joy/hell of self study. It's so
much easier in Japan; wish I could find that out all over again. I
sometimes feel like all my studying (which I don't have much time for)
is jus to maintain what I know.
John W.
--
'Pyle, you have been reborn, reborn hard' Full Metal Jacket
I'll bet you're the kinda guy that would
f*** a person in the ass and not even have the
GD common courtesy to give him a reach-around.
"God has a hard-on for Marines. Because
we kill everything we see" -- Full Metal Jacket
The world is as large or small as our minds -- me
"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's rainin'" Josey Wales
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
John W.
"Miaow" <mi...@mediaone.net.nospam> wrote:
> Hello. I am currently studying Japanese. I have always wanted to
learn
> this language, and my interest in Anime really encouraged me to
actually
> study.
You might get some replies by a guy named Charles Eicher. Ignore them
because basically he'll be telling you to not learn Japanese to read
Manga. Just a warning. Very few people agree with him. But he knows
tons about Japanese, so pick out the good parts.
I was wondering who else out there is trying to learn Japanese.
> What sort of things do you find easy or difficult?
The main thing I find difficult about Japanese is writing/reading. It
just kills me. My brain isn't configured in a way to understand how to
read/write Kanji. For me the easy thing is speaking/listening. Just
sitting down and hearing the language works for me.
Do you have any tips or
> tricks to share? How to you go about learning grammar, the
syllabaries, and
> Kanji?
For Kanji there is no real 'easy' way. The books that claim to have an
easy way are really just repackaging the same old way: memorization.
Write and write and when you're tired of writing, write some more. Be
ready for a long road, that someday will level off but will never get
truly easy.
A common way to practice kanji is through flashcards. Some people love
them, some hate them; they work for me.
Charles Eicher
>
>Hello. I am currently studying Japanese. I have always wanted to learn
>this language, and my interest in Anime really encouraged me to actually
>study.
And that makes it OK to crosspost this message between sci.lang.japan and 4
otaku newsgroups?
>I was wondering who else out there is trying to learn Japanese.
>What sort of things do you find easy or difficult?
Learning the language is easy. Dealing with the hordes of otaku who think they
know the language is difficult.
>Do you have any tips or
>tricks to share? How to you go about learning grammar, the syllabaries, and
>Kanji? What books or web sites do you use?
Japanese is not a subject you can learn from a book or website. You need
exposure to native speakers and live human interaction in the language.
>Also, please email me if you
>have already gone throuhg the beginning stages of the learning process and
>let me know what worked for you.
What worked for me: a 4-year college course at a university with a top-rated
Japanese program, followed by a brief period living in Japan.
Dave MacLeod
Japanese grammar and so on I'd recommend Easy Japanese by Jack Seward. The
information for those is up on my site.
-Dave MacLeod.
----------------------------------------------------------
Japanese and Estonian language resource page, Basara, manga, and more.
Jester
borders or barnes and noble or wherever they sell Japanese textbooks -- this is
some funny stuff. =) It reminds me of the teaching style that my clinically
insane calculus teacher inflicted on us last year (anti-derivatives in the first
week of class, regular derivatives just after the mid-term, etc.). Anyway...
thanks for the laugh. =)
-Ben
Jester
>What worked for me: a 4-year college course at a university with a top-rated
>Japanese program, followed by a brief period living in Japan.
That's quite an accessible learning method. Why doesn't everyone do that? =)
-----
Secret Answer: Because many, many people fall in love with the Japanese
language (for different reasons) but don't have much time to invest in it.
Myself, I'm busy trying to complete a four year college program in three years
(it's looking good) and can't fit in a Japanese class or study in Japan (believe
me, I've looked into both). I can only spend about half an hour a day studying,
not counting the hours of "down time" (a few minutes here, a half an hour of a
boring class there) that I squeeze together each day to look over word lists or
study points of grammar. Sure, Charles got the 1st class Japanese while I'm
swinging it in Coach, but that doesn't mean I'm not learning. I took an SAT II
practice test a couple weeks ago and only missed a couple questions from each
section -- which isn't bad for 5 months of Japanese learned the Coach way. I'm
having lots of fun, even though I would -love- to have a teacher to bring my
questions to. I just use all the resources at my command as fully as I possibly
can. So far, it's working for me... keep your fingers crossed, though, eh? =)
PS Sorry I couldn't write the Secret Answer upside down like you see on the
backs of cereal boxes. It would be nice if Agent would add an upside-down text
feature in one of its future revisions, though... =)
PPS Don't take this the wrong way, Charles -- this is just a different point of
view, not a flame. Believe it or not, I have a lot of respect for you. =)
-Ben
Sailor Naboo
> I find this interesting, because I sat in on an advanced Japanese class
> (after two years in Japan) and the people really had no concept of
> speaking Japanese. They could read/write circles around me, and
> probably knew more about grammar/proper structure than I did/do, but
> they could barely say their names.
Another interesting point, reverse the languages and you could be
describing how Japanese students learn English. They memorize long
vocabulary lists and obscure grammar rules, but can they really
communicate (speak) on a level that matches what they learned by rote?
Kyoko
--
------------------------------------------------
|********aka Pretty Soldier Sailor Naboo*********|
|******Fighting the Dark Side by Moonlight!******|
|*"In the name of George Lucas, I'll punish you"*|
------------------------------------------------
Charles Eicher
>
>The infamous Charles Eicher wrote:
>
>>What worked for me: a 4-year college course at a university with a top-rated
>>Japanese program, followed by a brief period living in Japan.
>
>That's quite an accessible learning method. Why doesn't everyone do that? =)
>
>-----
>
>Secret Answer: Because many, many people fall in love with the Japanese
>language (for different reasons) but don't have much time to invest in it.
>Myself, I'm busy trying to complete a four year college program in three years
>(it's looking good) and can't fit in a Japanese class or study in Japan (believe
>me, I've looked into both).
Well, I know it can be done, I did it. I managed to squeeze in two degrees in 4
years. And my other degree was in art which meant I had to spend about 20 hours
a week in the painting studio. Really, a serious Japanese program is only about
an hour a day of class and an hour of study. Its not an undue burden.
But what I'm really getting at is, you can't just dabble at it. You have to jump
in and devote serious time, or else you forget stuff as fast as you learn it.
The best way I know to do that is to get into a college curriculum where someone
else sets the deadlines.
>Sure, Charles got the 1st class Japanese while I'm
>swinging it in Coach, but that doesn't mean I'm not learning.
Well, that might be an overstatement. My own Japanese curriculum was revised as
fast as I took it, I was the last of the "old system" students. Each time I took
a class, that textbook was declared obsolete and abandoned and a new class
method was substituted. There has been a pretty much complete overhaul of
Japanese curriculum at the college level within just the past 2 or 3 years.
Things have gotten much easier for students lately, due to these new methods.
But anyway, the best part of a college-level course is that you have access to
native speakers, so you can get coaching. Without it, you are doing it the hard
way. The textbooks won't answer all your questions, they are just the baseline,
and you have to fill in with other materials. Without live speakers for practice
and interaction, you won't really progress as fast as you could.
Sailor Naboo
>
> Well, that might be an overstatement. My own Japanese curriculum was revised as
> fast as I took it, I was the last of the "old system" students. Each time I took
> a class, that textbook was declared obsolete and abandoned and a new class
> method was substituted. There has been a pretty much complete overhaul of
> Japanese curriculum at the college level within just the past 2 or 3 years.
> Things have gotten much easier for students lately, due to these new methods.
I saw that first hand (second hand?). A friend of mine took 5th year
Japanese at one University and when he went on to another school as a
graduate student in Japanese culture this new school made him take an
extensive oral and written placement test. Even though he did very well
on the written part, he ended up being placed in 2nd year Japanese!
This is a person who did get to spend some time in Japan in 1996 too
(though he would admit he spent more time on IRC and usenet than he did
socializing).
Charles Eicher
>
>Charles Eicher wrote:
>>
>>Well, that might be an overstatement. My own Japanese curriculum was revised as
>>fast as I took it, I was the last of the "old system" students. Each time I took
>> a class, that textbook was declared obsolete and abandoned and a new class
>> method was substituted. There has been a pretty much complete overhaul of
>> Japanese curriculum at the college level within just the past 2 or 3 years.
>> Things have gotten much easier for students lately, due to these new methods.
>
>I saw that first hand (second hand?). A friend of mine took 5th year
>Japanese at one University and when he went on to another school as a
>graduate student in Japanese culture this new school made him take an
>extensive oral and written placement test. Even though he did very well
>on the written part, he ended up being placed in 2nd year Japanese!
>This is a person who did get to spend some time in Japan in 1996 too
>(though he would admit he spent more time on IRC and usenet than he did
>socializing).
Fortunately, I'm in a little better shape, the changes seemed to have percolated
up through the system by the time I was in 3rd year. The book I used in 3rd year
was introduced in the 2nd year classes, but they went back to using it just for
3rd. And the book I used in 4th year is still used in 4th year, but will now be
used in 5th year. My school just added the 5th year class, but I think their new
4th year class is really a 3 1/2 year class because the 5th year curriculum is
the same as the old 4th year curriculum.
Anyway, I don't place much faith in placement tests, they are too subjective. I
finished an intensive 4th year class in Japan, then came back and while still
jet-lagged, about 6 hours after getting off the plane, I took a placement test
to get permission for 4th year at my university. Shortly afterwards, I was
called into the office and told my scores were very bad and I would have to
repeat 2nd year..!! I told her, no WAY was I going back to 2nd year, I was
enrolling in 4th year as I had planned. And I did. And I got an A.
Lee Ratner
<mi...@mediaone.net.nospam> wrote:
>Hello. I am currently studying Japanese. I have always wanted to learn
>this language, and my interest in Anime really encouraged me to actually
>study. I was wondering who else out there is trying to learn Japanese.
>What sort of things do you find easy or difficult? Do you have any tips or
>tricks to share? How to you go about learning grammar, the syllabaries, and
>Kanji? What books or web sites do you use? Also, please email me if you
>have already gone throuhg the beginning stages of the learning process and
>let me know what worked for you. Thank you very much for any information!
>
>
Take a course with teachers.
Shujin
exchange for Japanese lessons and substance allowance. (I also cheated a
bit, I married a Japanese girl and had 3 bi-lingual kids). That was back in
1969 and I was paid 36,000 Y per hour.
"Miaow" <mi...@mediaone.net.nospam> wrote in message
news:0U_N4.1766$6B1.107811@elnws01...
Jester
>Well, I know it can be done, I did it. I managed to squeeze in two degrees in 4
>years. And my other degree was in art which meant I had to spend about 20 hours
>a week in the painting studio. Really, a serious Japanese program is only about
>an hour a day of class and an hour of study. Its not an undue burden.
Right. I don't have room for a Japanese class because I need 11 more classes to
graduate, very specific classes (damned Freshman core courses that I put
off...), and I have exactly 11 empty spaces in my schedule next year -- which
leaves no room for electives. Other people go to high schools with no Japanese
courses or aren't in any schools at all. Of course it's always a good idea to
take an organized class if you can -- passing up a resource like that would just
be stupid.
>But what I'm really getting at is, you can't just dabble at it. You have to jump
>in and devote serious time, or else you forget stuff as fast as you learn it.
Definitely agreed. =)
*stares at word lists*
*stares at wall o' kanji* (half of my wall is papered with kanji on post-it
notes)
*stares at Japanese book center*
*stares at 25-cent, 90% salt Ramen noodles* ... well, at least I can read the
packages. =)
>But anyway, the best part of a college-level course is that you have access to
>native speakers, so you can get coaching. Without it, you are doing it the hard
>way. The textbooks won't answer all your questions, they are just the baseline,
>and you have to fill in with other materials. Without live speakers for practice
>and interaction, you won't really progress as fast as you could.
Hmmm... I should answer one of those ads for "language buddies" or "language
study pals" or whatever they call them these days...
Sailor Naboo
> Anyway, I don't place much faith in placement tests, they are too subjective. I
> finished an intensive 4th year class in Japan, then came back and while still
> jet-lagged, about 6 hours after getting off the plane, I took a placement test
> to get permission for 4th year at my university. Shortly afterwards, I was
> called into the office and told my scores were very bad and I would have to
> repeat 2nd year..!! I told her, no WAY was I going back to 2nd year, I was
> enrolling in 4th year as I had planned. And I did. And I got an A.
In this friend's case, it was a good thing for him. There were some
concepts that this school had in second year that he needed to work on,
including a lot of conversational experience. I think what he really
needed was a Japanese girlfriend! If I remember right, the next year he
ended up back in a 5th year class. In your case, it sounds like you did
exactly the right thing as well.
If I were to adopt a child, I'm sure I would enroll her in our local
Japanese emersion school. It goes from 1st grade to grade 12. The
exact percentage changes depending on what grade you are in, but part of
lessons are done in English, the other part in Japanese. It's funny,
the local anime club president was contacted for anime to show to a
third grade class and he didn't have a clue as to what to suggest that
wouldn't have some wacko parent leading a crusade against him. Card
Captor Sakura? Nope! Sailor Moon S (heck no!) If I had kids that age
I'd have nothing against showing them either of those shows (and I know
the anime club president feels the same way) but he wasn't willing to
make that decision for a school district.
MattBlue, who wants a Gundam DeathScythe
Michael Cash <etb...@mtpilot.edu> wrote in message
news:3908a17...@news.sunfield.ne.jp...
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:46:45 -0400, eirias <NOSPAM...@bu.edu> wrote:
>
> >> or "Learn Japanese, New College
> >> Text" by John Young and Kimiko Nakajima-Okano.
> >
> >Avoid this book like the plauge.
> >It's one of the worst written and contructed books imaginable.
>
> It is the text I used, many many years ago. I did part 1 through
self-study and
> course work, as well as part of part 2. I did a small portion of part 3 as
> self-study. This and the Mizutanis' "Introduction to Modern Japanese"
(which I
> thought sucked) were the only texts I used.
>
> I now (and have for many years) make my living speaking and using nothing
but
> the Japanese language, and read almost nothing but Japanese books. All
this in
> spite of having used nothing but the "worst written and constructed books
> imaginable". How about that!
>
> matter if you're actually in Japan, though.
Hm, my school uses 2 textbooks for my 1st year class. One of thim is
"Korekara no Nihongo", and I dislike it, but it helps every so often. The
other one is an amazing textbook called "Yookoso!: An introduction to
contemporary Japanese". t has cultural notes, tons of kanji, and it's
fairly new too, compared to the spanish textbooks from the 70's my school
uses.
Yookoso!:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-8595825-4228034
Korekara no Nihongo (under the title "Japanese Now")
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-keywor
ds=%20%20Japanese%20Now&bq=1/102-8595825-4228034
--
Matt
"Hey, looka here! 'Horny Young Widows'!!
'Sgot yer name all over it--!!"
-Sakamoto-kun
ICQ#41274392 AIM-DoctorC2, KudouShnichi
Saint Dead Air (The Former Pope Emperor)
<NOSPAM...@bu.edu> spelled out in toothpicks:
> The irritating over-reliance of
>romanji
>enough, but because everything is in romanji,
>But the two main reasons to avoid it are the romanji,
Hey -- wasn't "Romanji" a movie starring Robin Williams?
THE WORD IS "RO-MAJI."
=================================================
Saint Dead Air the Bacon Zamboni
He Who No Longer Exists
http://home.earthlink.net/~rtoad
Pope Emperor FrogMaN (R.I.P.)
5 June, 1969 -- 25 March, 2000
====================================================
Saint Dead Air (The Former Pope Emperor)
<btt...@nyu.eduzacation> spelled out in toothpicks:
> Charles Eicher informed me
>about a month ago that these books were out of print, but they've had them at
>every book store I've been to, and I think I saw them at either amazon or
>bn.com, so you should be able to find them. They're about $10 each.
Amazon still has them.
> Secondly, you should get a good grammar book. I'm interested in hearing
>what other people recommend, but I suggest you check out "A Dictionary of Basic
>Japanese Grammar," which is published by the Japan Times.
I haven the Tuttle book "A Handbook of Japanese Grammar," and it's
good but not super easy to understand, but it's very comprehensive.
> Lastly, if you're -serious- about learning this language, a good
>dictionary is essential. The earlier you get it, the better. If money's tight
>for you, there's no harm in sticking with EDict while you're just starting out
>-- it's an excellent program, but sooner or later you're probably going to want
>to have a paper dictionary at your disposal (unless you never leave your
>computer screen). =) I really don't know what the best one is for the Japanese
>-learner-. I have Kenkyusha's New College J-E, which contains most of the words
>I need to look up -- for the most part, it's just missing those katakanized
>English words that drive me crazy.
I use the Kenkyuusha Japanese-English Learner's Dictionary, which is
unfortunately out of print, but is still widely available. And it's
very good. People might complain because all the entries are in
Ro-maji, however they immediately give both the Kana and the Kanji (if
there is one) reading. Their romanization is kind of strange -- "ou"
is written as "oo," and "ei" is written as "ee," but it gives many
examples, proper usage of the word, and cultural notes.
> Lastly, get yourself some reading material. Preferably something with
>pictures.
I use "Shin Nihongo no Kiso" for reading comprehension, because the
book is entirely in Japanese -- Kanji and kana -- with absolutely no
English or Romanization anywhere. But every Kanji has the furigana
readings. And they list alternate readings through context. EX: one
sentence they might use "jin" and then next "hito" for "person."
Adam Bronson
eirias <NOSPAM...@bu.edu> wrote in message news:3908A9...@bu.edu...
*snip*
> But the two main reasons to avoid it are the romanji, which no decent
> teacher will allow after the first few weeks, and the completely
> arbitrary word/kanji selection, which has us learning really obscure
> kanji long before we know very basic, everyday characters.
>
This sounds a pretty terrible book, BUT I don't think that a book is
instantly condemned if it uses romaji. For instance, I think Japanese: The
Spoken Language is a really good introductory text. It does however, use a
romaji system like the one in LJNCT. I think learning the writing system is
a lot more enjoyable and interesting if you already know some Japanese. You
can actually construct example sentences, etc. Also, romaji tends to make
you concentrate more on pronunciation.
-
KH
Matt Martin
Dead Air (The Former Pope Emperor) <dead...@hipcrime.net> imparted
the following wisdom unto us:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:58:16 -0400, in sci.lang.japan eirias
> <NOSPAM...@bu.edu> spelled out in toothpicks:
>
> > The irritating over-reliance of
> >romanji
>
> >enough, but because everything is in romanji,
>
>
> >But the two main reasons to avoid it are the romanji,
>
> Hey -- wasn't "Romanji" a movie starring Robin Williams?
>
> THE WORD IS "RO-MAJI."
But if it's referring to writing in the Latin alphabet, which Romance
and Germanic languages use, it sure looks like it would be romanji
(Latin == Roman).
Not that language makes sense.
--
Matt Martin PGP key ID: 0x512666AB
buf...@nekomusume.net / buf...@yggdrasil.dhs.org ======================
UR Japanese Anime Club home page: http://nekomusume.net/uranime/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only thing worse than infinite recursion is infinite recursion.
Lee Ratner
<macl...@cadvision.com> wrote:
>For Kanji I'd recommend NTC's New Japanese-English character dictionary. For
>Japanese grammar and so on I'd recommend Easy Japanese by Jack Seward. The
>information for those is up on my site.
>
By far the best kanji dictionary. I love the classification system.
Jester
>Hey -- wasn't "Romanji" a movie starring Robin Williams?
>
>THE WORD IS "RO-MAJI."
Probably been dealt with a million times before, but: why?
They're Roman letters, not Roma letters.
First guess is, Japanese pronunciation just leaves out the "n"... but...
then I look at "kanji"...
Jester
>I use the Kenkyuusha Japanese-English Learner's Dictionary, which is
>unfortunately out of print, but is still widely available.
>[...]
>People might complain because all the entries are in
>Ro-maji,
One of the things I love about my New College J-E -- it really improved my kana
reading skills. Now I've even have the proper order down -- imagine that. =)
>Their romanization is kind of strange -- "ou"
>is written as "oo," and "ei" is written as "ee,"
*convulses in mental anguish*
>but it gives many
>examples, proper usage of the word, and cultural notes.
The way you describe it makes it sound a lot like the Kenkyusha Lighthouse
Dictionary -- have you ever seen that one? It's like the New College J-E, but
it has less words and longer examples/cultural notes. As far as I know, they
put out three of them that are roughly the same: Lighthouse, College Lighthouse,
and New College. (In order from least to most number of entries).
>I use "Shin Nihongo no Kiso" for reading comprehension, because the
>book is entirely in Japanese -- Kanji and kana -- with absolutely no
>English or Romanization anywhere. But every Kanji has the furigana
>readings. And they list alternate readings through context. EX: one
>sentence they might use "jin" and then next "hito" for "person."
That sounds good. I just play a ton of video games and other such things that
make our Charles tear his hair out. =) Of course, I also use other stuff --
I'm in Chinatown, so we have a lot of Japanese products here, too -- so I read
the instructions on them and on the backs of all this computer equipment I deal
with, and I go to Japanese websites and check out newspapers, but they're a
-bit- beyond me right now. =) I also go to Tower Books and check out the
Japanese magazines they have -- which are mostly 200 pages of advertisements and
the English word "Wow" written in a variety of exciting ways, but it's a good
way to get your katakana down. =) It's also fun to go to Japanese Yahoo and
look through their auction sites for products I'm interested in.
Mostly just videogames, though. Tons of kanji, and nice, soothing
soundtracks to listen to while I'm looking up all the stuff. Plus I have one of
those keyboard sliding trays on my desk, so when I play them, I put the keyboard
in the back and set up my dictionaries in the tray, so I have an instant
learning center. It's like getting into some scholarly cockpit, or something
like that. =)
Jester
>Also, romaji tends to make
>you concentrate more on pronunciation.
That's the one point in your email I'd disagree with. Sometimes I slip when
reading romaji and use an English pronunciation. This has -NEVER- happened when
using kana and I don't see how it ever could. =) Reading kana gives you the
feel of being entirely emersed in a different language -- with romaji, I still
feel... English. =/
Adam Bronson
Jester <btt...@nyu.eduzacation> wrote in message
news:0qvjgsk0h1qud06po...@4ax.com...
> ABSOLUTELY NOT Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
>
> >Hey -- wasn't "Romanji" a movie starring Robin Williams?
> >
> >THE WORD IS "RO-MAJI."
>
> Probably been dealt with a million times before, but: why?
> They're Roman letters, not Roma letters.
> First guess is, Japanese pronunciation just leaves out the "n"... but...
> then I look at "kanji"...
>
Well, they're literally "Rome-letters" I think. Ro-ma is the Japanese
transcription of the Italian word for Rome... uh, Roma. It's sort of like
itaria-go (Italia-language, not Italy-language or Italian-language).
So you should be able to say rome-ji anyway.
On the other hand you do have ??? (romanha, english: romanticist), but
that's romance-roman, not rome-roman I guess. Confusing!
-
KH
Prince Richard Kaminski
Jester wrote:
> ABSOLUTELY NOT Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
>
> >Hey -- wasn't "Romanji" a movie starring Robin Williams?
> >
> >THE WORD IS "RO-MAJI."
>
> Probably been dealt with a million times before, but: why?
> They're Roman letters, not Roma letters.
> First guess is, Japanese pronunciation just leaves out the "n"... but...
> then I look at "kanji"...
It's nothing to do with missing out the "n", it's just standard Japanese
grammar. Don't forget, the "n" is an *English* adjectival ending, not a
Japanese one. Italian cooking is "Itaria-ryouri" not "Itarian-Ryouri", and
the same goes for any other name of a country or region. Akita-ryouri, for
example. Foreign names follow the same usage as Japanese ones, and that's
why it's "roomaji" and not "romanji". Because Rome is "Rooma" in Japanese
(from the Italian "Roma").That's another point to make, it's from the
Italian word for Rome, not the English adjective Roman with an "n" missed
out.
s_y...@my-deja.com
Jester <btt...@nyu.eduzacation> wrote:
> ABSOLUTELY NOT Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
>
> >Hey -- wasn't "Romanji" a movie starring Robin Williams?
> >
> >THE WORD IS "RO-MAJI."
>
> Probably been dealt with a million times before, but: why?
> They're Roman letters, not Roma letters.
> First guess is, Japanese pronunciation just leaves out the "n"... but...
> then I look at "kanji"...
>
I would guess that it's simply because any word is more easily borrowed
into Japanese in its original form, the noun in this case, rather than
any of the derivational form, or the adjectival for instance. "ro(o)ma-ji"
was probably first conceived as "ro(o)ma-no-ji", and then the "no" was
deleted to give it the status of the "techanical term" that it functions
as.
The word "ro*u*man" itself became a part of the Japanese vocabulary
when a group of novelists KITAMURA Toukoku or SHIMAZAKI Touson
called themselves the "Rouman-ha", even had kanji for it as
浪漫派 (where "ha" means something like "school"), and their way,
浪漫主義 (Romanticism)
clearly with an eye on, or rather in emulation of what's classified as
Romanticism in Europear literature. Thus, the adjective form was strictly
restricted to its reference in the world of fictional literature, and as it
was/is used, the word "rouman" in Japanese should be seen as a noun.
--
Sho
Michael Cash
>On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:37:49 -0500, "Miaow"
><mi...@mediaone.net.nospam> wrote:
>
>>Hello. I am currently studying Japanese. I have always wanted to learn
>>this language, and my interest in Anime really encouraged me to actually
>>study. I was wondering who else out there is trying to learn Japanese.
>>What sort of things do you find easy or difficult? Do you have any tips or
>>tricks to share? How to you go about learning grammar, the syllabaries, and
>>Kanji? What books or web sites do you use? Also, please email me if you
>>have already gone throuhg the beginning stages of the learning process and
>>let me know what worked for you. Thank you very much for any information!
>>
>>
>
> Take a course with teachers.
I normally have my newsreader set to NOT display people's e-mail addresses. Yet
taking a look at a couple of Lee's posts I got a sneaking suspicion that he was
posting from AOL. Punching up the header showed me to be right. Sometimes, not
often, but sometimes I just hate being right.
Quit feeding the AOL lamer stereotype, Lee.
Michael Cash
"No, Mr. Cash, I didn't say your fly is open. I said
everyone can plainly see you're nuts."
Prof. Ernest T. Bass
Mount Pilot College
Anthony J. Bryant
> But if it's referring to writing in the Latin alphabet, which Romance
> and Germanic languages use, it sure looks like it would be romanji
> (Latin == Roman).
>
But it's a word in JAPANESE, not English. The Russians and Germans don't call
things Roman "Roman" for example.
In Japanese, Rome is "RŮma", so "characters of Rome" are "RŮmaji".
Tony
Anthony J. Bryant
> ABSOLUTELY NOT Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
>
> >Hey -- wasn't "Romanji" a movie starring Robin Williams?
> >
> >THE WORD IS "RO-MAJI."
>
> Probably been dealt with a million times before, but: why?
> They're Roman letters, not Roma letters.
> First guess is, Japanese pronunciation just leaves out the "n"... but...
> then I look at "kanji"...
Because is Japanese, Rome is Rôma, and "roman characters" are "rôma ji".
It's not English, it's Japanese. Sheesh.
Tony
Anthony J. Bryant
> The word "ro*u*man" itself became a part of the Japanese vocabulary
> when a group of novelists KITAMURA Toukoku or SHIMAZAKI Touson
> called themselves the "Rouman-ha", even had kanji for it as
> ˜Q?Ÿ”h (where "ha" means something like "school"), and their way,
> ˜Q?Ÿ*å?` (Romanticism)
> clearly with an eye on, or rather in emulation of what's classified as
> Romanticism in Europear literature. Thus, the adjective form was strictly
> restricted to its reference in the world of fictional literature, and as it
> was/is used, the word "rouman" in Japanese should be seen as a noun.
That's because of the French word "roman" which means "novel/romance".
Tony
Jim Breen
>>ABSOLUTELY NOT Pope Emperor FrogMaN wrote:
>>>Hey -- wasn't "Romanji" a movie starring Robin Williams?
>>>THE WORD IS "RO-MAJI."
>>Probably been dealt with a million times before, but: why?
>>They're Roman letters, not Roma letters.
In English, yes. But Romaji is not an English word; it's Japanese.
>>First guess is, Japanese pronunciation just leaves out the "n"... but...
>>then I look at "kanji"...
More than that. Japanese grammar leaves out the "n" too in the
genitive case. In fact it never even had it. Audacious people the
Japanese. Fancy having a grammar which differs from English. 8-)}
--
Jim Breen [j.b...@csse.monash.edu.au http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/]
Computer Science & Software Engineering, Tel: +61 3 9905 3298
Monash University, Fax: +61 3 9905 3574
Clayton VIC 3168, Australia ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大学
Gerald B Mathias
: [...] Saint Dead Air (The Former Pope Emperor) [wrote]:
:> THE WORD IS "RO-MAJI."
: But if it's referring to writing in the Latin alphabet, which Romance
: and Germanic languages use, it sure looks like it would be romanji
: (Latin == Roman).
: Not that language makes sense.
It makes a lot better sense than that!
Japanese does not use English adjective forms. So "pertaining to
Rome" comes out "rooma-no," not "Rom-an."
And by the way, when it refers to the language, "Latin" = "ratengo."
Bart
s_y...@my-deja.com
ajbr...@indiana.edu wrote:
> s_y...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > The word "ro*u*man" itself became a part of the Japanese vocabulary
> > called themselves the "Rouman-ha", even had kanji for it as
> > 浪漫主義` (Romanticism)
> > clearly with an eye on, or rather in emulation of what's classified as
> > restricted to its reference in the world of fictional literature, and as it
> > was/is used, the word "rouman" in Japanese should be seen as a noun.
Please note the correction I made in the above in regard to who was involved
in the "Rouman-shugi", Japanese version.
> That's because of the French word "roman" which means "novel/romance".
You're right, as far as the kanji 浪漫 is conerned. On the othere hand,
there was katakana ロマン主義 and ロマン派 which are references to the
European entities, that are usually used in reference to the British and
German trends in literature. I should have restricted my discussion to this
latter case. Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that borrowings of
words across unrelated languages are likely to occur with certain recurrent
forms of the words, independently of their derivational patterns.
There is such a word as "gureko-rooman", obviously borrowed from
"Greco-Roman", but this usually refers only to a certain syle of wrestling.
Even "Roman-Catholic" gets to be "Rooma-katorikku/kasorikku". "Rooma-buro", I
suppose, means something totally deferent from "Roman bath".
Ben Bullock
Charles Eicher <cei...@inav.net> wrote in message
news:8eb3jc$2d...@edrn.newsguy.com...
> Really, a serious Japanese program is only about
Is this the standard amount of studying in universities in USA? I did a
part time course in Japanese at Durham university which was about
this much studying. The other people in the class were studying for
Japanese and Chinese but mostly Chinese. I can't believe a full-time
degree in USA consists of so little work.
Shujin
Just a note. I taught Japanese conversational English for a couple of years
in Tokyo. I spent a total of 26 years in mainland Japan and Okinawa. My X
even owns a restuarant on the Ginza. I do know that English is a mandatory
subject in the school system. The problem is that Japanese teach that
English in the schools, so spoken English is not one of tehir strong points.
That is why in the seventies, I was making close to $100/hour teaching
"Conversation" English in Tokyo.
The amazing thing I learned though, whenever I could not communicate in
spoken English to a Japanese, as soon as I wrote the word down in plain
block letters, they usually understood immediately. It makes sense to me.
Shujin
"Sailor Naboo" <sailor...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:39091965...@my-deja.com...
> "John W." wrote:
>
> > I find this interesting, because I sat in on an advanced Japanese class
> > (after two years in Japan) and the people really had no concept of
> > speaking Japanese. They could read/write circles around me, and
> > probably knew more about grammar/proper structure than I did/do, but
> > they could barely say their names.
>
> Another interesting point, reverse the languages and you could be
> describing how Japanese students learn English. They memorize long
> vocabulary lists and obscure grammar rules, but can they really
> communicate (speak) on a level that matches what they learned by rote?
arkk
> lessons are done in English, the other part in Japanese. It's funny,
> the local anime club president was contacted for anime to show to a
> third grade class and he didn't have a clue as to what to suggest that
> wouldn't have some wacko parent leading a crusade against him. Card
> Captor Sakura? Nope! Sailor Moon S (heck no!) If I had kids that age
> I'd have nothing against showing them either of those shows (and I know
> the anime club president feels the same way) but he wasn't willing to
> make that decision for a school district.
>
the answer is easy: Miyazaki.
Jester
Last year I went to school two days a week. Of course, I already knew
everything they were telling me, so even that was too much. My programs are
ranked 25th (English) and one of the top 3 (Journalism) in the country -- or so
our departments tell us. =) At least I'm paying more than anyone else. =/
Charles Eicher
>>Is this the standard amount of studying in universities in USA? I did a
>>part time course in Japanese at Durham university which was about
>>this much studying. The other people in the class were studying for
>>Japanese and Chinese but mostly Chinese. I can't believe a full-time
>>degree in USA consists of so little work.
Huh? Who wrote that? I never saw this appear on my server. Perhaps I'm missing
some context..
One hour of class and one hour of homework a day is 10 hours of study a week.
Add a little extra near the end of the semester and when tests are due. Its a
lot of study. The typical formula I have heard is that for every semester-hour
of credit, add two hours of extra study. Some people may have to take a 6 SH
class and spend 12 hours studying outside class per week, but I generally
didn't.
On top of that, a BA in Japanese requires a lot more than just language studies.
Aside from basic classes like math and science, there are a multitude of lit and
history classes, its a lot of work. Many people can't finish it all in 4 years.
Mike Wright
Does anyone ever *really* finish it all?
It's sad that DLI no longer trains enlisted personnel in Japanese. You
just can't beat 30 hours of classroom time per week for 47 (now 63)
weeks, followed by the chance of a three-year assignment in Japan. My
class (in 1967-68) also included a bunch of young Army Reservists who
came in on active duty, studied Japanese for a year, and went back to
civilian life and weekend drill once a month. (Of course, they
probably all had to "fight" in Greneda.) I'd say that, including
homework, I spent 8-9 hours a day on Japanese. It was a great ride,
with no other classes and greatly reduced military
responsibilities--especially as I was married by then. If I'd been
single, I'd probably have followed it up with college and learned all
that good stuff.
Nowadays it seems that our friend the government is saving our
precious tax dollars and training only officers. Pfui!!!
Another odd possibility is be a Mormon missionary. (Yeah, I know, they
probably don't get to chose where they're gonna go.) One of my buddies
had been a missionary in Japan, then went to DLI. His spoken Japanese
was already excellent when he began at DLI, so by the time he got back
to Japan in the Army, he was pretty impressive--especially since he
was a raw hillbilly in every other way. It was quite a shock to
visitors to hear this little Gomer (You didn't grow up with him, did
you Michael?) dealing with his Japanese co-workers. His spoken
Japanese was an order of magnitude better than mine.
--
Mike Wright
http://www.CoastalFog.net
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Saint Dead Air (The Former Pope Emperor)
<btt...@nyu.eduzacation> spelled out in toothpicks:
>>Their romanization is kind of strange -- "ou"
>>is written as "oo," and "ei" is written as "ee,"
>
>*convulses in mental anguish*
It's a pain, especially if you are not sure of how the word is read.
I was looking up one word that I wasn't really sure of the reading,
and I couldn't find it, and was getting irritated. So I gave up and
looked it up on Jim Breen's site. Then a couple of days later I am
looking up another word and LO! AND BEHOLD! The first word was there,
just spelled kind of wacky.
>The way you describe it makes it sound a lot like the Kenkyusha Lighthouse
>Dictionary -- have you ever seen that one? It's like the New College J-E, but
>it has less words and longer examples/cultural notes. As far as I know, they
>put out three of them that are roughly the same: Lighthouse, College Lighthouse,
>and New College. (In order from least to most number of entries).
I'll have to look them up. I have to go to UCR Monday to buy some
books for next semester, and I'll take a gander in the JSL section and
see what Dictionaries they have there. I didn't realize they had a
JSL program there. I know UC Irvine has one, and UCLA has a very good
one. I knew that UCR has Mandarin and Cantonese SL program, but not a
Japanese one.
>That sounds good. I just play a ton of video games and other such things that
>make our Charles tear his hair out. =) Of course, I also use other stuff <...>
> I also go to Tower Books and check out the
>Japanese magazines they have -- which are mostly 200 pages of advertisements and
>the English word "Wow" written in a variety of exciting ways, but it's a good
>way to get your katakana down. =)
I don't know if I should be saying this -- but my friend keeps sending
me Japanese soft porn mags, so I am learing all sorts of Japanese from
them...
> Mostly just videogames, though. Tons of kanji, and nice, soothing
>soundtracks to listen to while I'm looking up all the stuff.
I played one game -- Chronotrigger -- and it didn't list any Kanji,
unfortunately, only Hiragana. Which was confusing because some words
I knew were Katakana were showing up as Hiragana.
Plus I have one of
>those keyboard sliding trays on my desk, so when I play them, I put the keyboard
>in the back and set up my dictionaries in the tray, so I have an instant
>learning center. It's like getting into some scholarly cockpit, or something
>like that.
I just bash my head against my dictionary until I have "JISHO" marked
on my forehead. And then I eat a lot of bacon and go to sleep. No,
really, I prop my book against my computer speakers and hold it open
with a bookmark that my friend Amy gave me that was fashioned out of
an old motherboard. A REALLY old motherboard -- the multiplier only
went as high as 25 MHz!
=================================================
"If your engines aren't revved up, then what you
need is a holy ghost enema right up your rear end!"
-Suzanne Hinn
Saint Dead Air the Bacon Zamboni
He Who No Longer Exists
http://home.earthlink.net/~rtoad
====================================================
Jester
Wrote:
>I don't know if I should be saying this -- but my friend keeps sending
>me Japanese soft porn mags, so I am learing all sorts of Japanese from
>them...
I've run into a ton of them at comic book shops around here. This city must be
a strange place to grow up in... back home we only had Playboys and Penthouses
on the top shelves of book stores -- here you have cross-dressing prostitutes
running through the streets while blasted on pcp. The Big Apple*, indeed.
>I played one game -- Chronotrigger -- and it didn't list any Kanji,
>unfortunately, only Hiragana. Which was confusing because some words
>I knew were Katakana were showing up as Hiragana.
Off-topic, so please respond to this point by email if you have anything to add,
but this is really weird. I have kurona turiga -- it's -packed- with kanji.
The only video games I've ever seen without kanji are gameboy games, and one
game on the super famicom called "Hanjuku Hiirou" (soft-boiled hero), which is
just an insane game about a heroic egg man -- the fact that it's all in kana is
probably the least of its "quirks." =)
>I just bash my head against my dictionary until I have "JISHO" marked
>on my forehead. And then I eat a lot of bacon and go to sleep. No,
>really, I prop my book against my computer speakers and hold it open
>with a bookmark that my friend Amy gave me that was fashioned out of
>an old motherboard. A REALLY old motherboard -- the multiplier only
>went as high as 25 MHz!
What luxury. =) I just use my fingers as bookmarks... and when I run out, I
just start to scream. I use the bacon method a lot, too, but I don't think that
has anything to do with Japanese learning... ... *gets idea for Senior Thesis*
-Ben
*Trivial Pursuit Fodder: The Big Apple: The Garden of Eden had a famous apple of
it's own -- I forget if the metaphor came from the US being a garden of Eden and
NYC being it's big apple, or if New York was just an apple without necessarily
having to have any sort of garden, but that's what it means. All that bad
stuff. Of course, now we live in a Military State, so we can all rest safely in
our beds, as long as we don't make any trouble.
Ben Bullock
> >>Is this the standard amount of studying in universities in USA? I did a
> >>part time course in Japanese at Durham university which was about
> >>this much studying. The other people in the class were studying for
> >>Japanese and Chinese but mostly Chinese. I can't believe a full-time
> >>degree in USA consists of so little work.
>
> Huh? Who wrote that? I never saw this appear on my server. Perhaps I'm
missing
> some context..
I wrote it. There is no missing context.
> On top of that, a BA in Japanese requires a lot more than just language
studies.
> Aside from basic classes like math and science, there are a multitude of
lit and
> history classes, its a lot of work. Many people can't finish it all in 4
years.
Reading this I think maybe it would be a good idea to go and study
for a degree in Britain where you don't need to study all these other
peripheral things. I don't see what maths and science have to do with
Japanese.
S.t.A.n.L.e.E
They don't. They're usually just basic stuff though.
They're just so you "broaden your horizons."
Laters. =)
Stan
----------
_______ ________ _______ ____ ___ ___ ______ ______
| __|__ __| _ | \ | | | | _____| _____|
|__ | | | | _ | |\ | |___| ____|| ____|
|_______| |__| |__| |__|___| \ ___|_______|______|______|
__| | ( )
/ _ | |/ Stanlee Dometita sta...@www.cif.rochester.edu
| ( _| | U of Rochester
\ ______| _______ ____ ___
/ \ / \ | _ | \ | | www.cif.rochester.edu/~stanlee
/ \/ \| _ | |\ | uhura.cc.rochester.edu/~sd005e
/___/\/___ |__| |__|___| \ ___|
Jester
Wrote:
>Reading this I think maybe it would be a good idea to go and study
>for a degree in Britain where you don't need to study all these other
>peripheral things. I don't see what maths and science have to do with
>Japanese.
I was told that it has more to do with meeting students from other programs in
the university in order to strenghten ties and make connections than it does
with actual learning. I don't know if that's true or not, but I can't see any
other reason for it -- especially since I came here with AP credit for these
worthless core courses, but I still could only be exempted from one.
-Ben
Charles Eicher
>
>On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:07:01 +0900, "Ben Bullock" <haya...@syd.odn.ne.jp>
>Wrote:
>
>>Reading this I think maybe it would be a good idea to go and study
>>for a degree in Britain where you don't need to study all these other
>>peripheral things. I don't see what maths and science have to do with
>>Japanese.
Its no wonder that Britain is a FORMER world power, when people hold attitudes
like that. There is virtue in a liberal education beyond its immediate practical
value. One of the first things we Yankees did, even before we kicked the brits
out, was to establish liberal arts universities.
>I was told that it has more to do with meeting students from other programs in
>the university in order to strenghten ties and make connections than it does
>with actual learning.
Utterly ridiculous. Not everything in education is done for its machiavellian
utility. If you don't have a broad liberal education, you are not educated. A
good example is today's horde of computer geeks. They're generally well-trained
in computing, but can't see the big picture. They think that every problem has a
technological solution. Sorry, some "solutions" only make the problem worse due
to an inadequate knowledge of social issues.
But more to the point, yes, even math and science has application to other
fields. Japanese majors with math and science knowledge can adapt quickly to
technological advances in their field. And nobody just studies japanese and
nothing else, unless they want to be an academic in Japanese studies. And even
then they better be good with math and sciences or they'll get left behind when
their university gets computerized.
I really can't believe ben is espousing this philosophy, I was under the
impression that he worked in technological fields, where his knowledge of math
and science came first, and Japanese knowlege came second.
>I don't know if that's true or not, but I can't see any
>other reason for it -- especially since I came here with AP credit for these
>worthless core courses, but I still could only be exempted from one.
I got AP credit for Chemistry, I was exempted from the first year class. So they
stuck me in 2nd year, and to my surprise, they sat me down with a lab book and
asked me to repeat the same experiments I did at the beginning of my senior year
of high school. I figured I better change majors if this was all the education
they could provide me. I eventually changed to a major in the arts. Of all the
skills I used in my Arts classes, chemistry and physics were the most valuable
of all.
Chris Schack
Jester <btt...@nyu.eduzacation> wrote:
<snip>
> First off, MangaJin's Basic Japanese Through Comics (volumes 1 and 2) is
>a -great- book to get to learn some VERY basic (see title) Japanese idioms,
>customs, basic greetings, etc. It doesn't seem like it would teach you very
>much, but it handles some difficult (for me, at least) topics for the beginning
>learner in a way that makes learning very easy. You won't learn much from this
>book, but what you do learn will go a LONG way. Charles Eicher informed me
>about a month ago that these books were out of print, but they've had them at
>every book store I've been to, and I think I saw them at either amazon or
>bn.com, so you should be able to find them. They're about $10 each.
Well, I suppose I'll see about their being out of print soon enough.
I reserved a copy of one of those on Friday, and they didn't seem to
expect any problems getting it at the "World's Biggest Bookstore"
in Toronto ... they'd ordered two copies, but I didn't want to miss
the chance.
Chris Schack
Jim Breen
>>In article <dibpgs0gcnono6dlp...@4ax.com>, Jester says...
>>>On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:07:01 +0900, "Ben Bullock" <haya...@syd.odn.ne.jp>
>>>Wrote:
>>>>Reading this I think maybe it would be a good idea to go and study
>>>>for a degree in Britain where you don't need to study all these other
>>>>peripheral things. I don't see what maths and science have to do with
>>>>Japanese.
>>Its no wonder that Britain is a FORMER world power, when people hold attitudes
>>like that. There is virtue in a liberal education beyond its immediate practical
>>value. One of the first things we Yankees did, even before we kicked the brits
>>out, was to establish liberal arts universities.
Charles, Charles. Sounds like your course could have done with some
logic in it 8-)}
Like Ben, I come from (and work in) an academic tradition where at
university one specializes. The rest of the (academic) world does look
at the US system with a degree of bewilderment, as the cluttering of
undergraduate courses with all sorts of compulsory material, combined
with the chronically low standard of output from much (not all) of
the US secondary school system, results in a situation where one
needs a masters degree in the US to have reached the same level as, say,
a diplome from a French grande ecole.
It's not as if the Brits are out of step with the rest of the world in
this. Focussed specialization is pretty much the norm world-wide. In my
day job I have to evaluate applications from graduates all over the place,
in particular Asian countries. I can assure you that apart from the odd
cases of compulsory Maxist-Leninist Thought, most of the courses are
very specific.
BTW: I must add that one to my list of reasons for the Fall of the
British Empire.
brettr
> But more to the point, yes, even math and science has application to other
> fields. Japanese majors with math and science knowledge can adapt quickly to
> technological advances in their field. And nobody just studies japanese and
> nothing else, unless they want to be an academic in Japanese studies.
or tourist guides, hotel front desk, work in a Japanese restaurant, or a dumb bimbo
on Japanese TV.
Thankless jobs that you can get without the language skills, except perhaps the dumb
bimbo on Japanese TV.
Yes, get a career first.
Don Kirkman
Emperor) wrote in article <k6tngskvpv6sqi1ce...@4ax.com>:
>On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:34:54 -0400, in sci.lang.japan Jester
><btt...@nyu.eduzacation> spelled out in toothpicks:
[...]
>I don't know if I should be saying this -- but my friend keeps sending
>me Japanese soft porn mags, so I am learing all sorts of Japanese from
>them...
>> Mostly just videogames, though. Tons of kanji, and nice, soothing
>>soundtracks to listen to while I'm looking up all the stuff.
>I played one game -- Chronotrigger -- and it didn't list any Kanji,
>unfortunately, only Hiragana. Which was confusing because some words
>I knew were Katakana were showing up as Hiragana.
I'd always thought the differences in the kana were fairly similar to
the differences between English printed in italic, bold, and regular
typefaces. They're the same words, 'spelled' in the same way, but just
displayed differently for different purposes. IMO it's
counterproductive to try to be too specific, like saying katakana is
always/only for foreign names or for emphasis. A goodly amount of the
text in my first formal study textbook was in katakana (for historical
and pedagogical reasons).
--
Don Kirkman
"Fool someone once . . . and they'll feel foolish for a day . ..
. . . but teach them to fool themselves and they'll be foolish
for a lifetime." M. Fry & T. Lewis, 'Over the Hedge'
Sean Howard
: I went through the whole series at FSU decades ago.
Same here. You'll be please to know that they switched to "Japanese:
the Spoken Language" fairly recently.
On another note, did you have Dr. Ree? A great teacher, but I'm scared to
death of the guy.
@@
Sean Howard
Anthony J. Bryant
Who else *is* there? <G>
Tell him "Tony Bryant from 1981 said hello" and tell him that after 12 years
as an editor (including stints at the Mainichi Shinbun and Tokyo Journal)
I've gone back to grad school for a doctorate in medieval Japanese lit and
history.
Is Penny Mason still there in the art department? (She does/did Japanese
art.)
Tony
Sean Howard
Actually, Dr. Ree has been on sabatical in Hawaii for the past year. A
professor from Penn State (?) named Dr. Nara has been filling in for him.
My girlfriend has had 4 semesters of Japanese and never once had Dr. Ree.
: Tell him "Tony Bryant from 1981 said hello" and tell him that after 12 years
: as an editor (including stints at the Mainichi Shinbun and Tokyo Journal)
: I've gone back to grad school for a doctorate in medieval Japanese lit and
: history.
I would, but I'm not going to be seeing him. I'm going to be spending
(hopefully) the next year studying abroad in Japan. If you would like to
email him, I believe it is jr...@mailer.nospam.edu (replace nospam with "fsu").
Just out of curiosity, what was your experience with the Japanese program
at FSU?
: Is Penny Mason still there in the art department? (She does/did Japanese
: art.)
I don't know. Quick search of the facilty at FSU reveals no Penny Mason.
@@
Sean Howard
Anthony J. Bryant
> Anthony J. Bryant (ajbr...@indiana.edu) wrote:
> : Who else *is* there? <G>
>
> Actually, Dr. Ree has been on sabatical in Hawaii for the past year. A
> professor from Penn State (?) named Dr. Nara has been filling in for him.
> My girlfriend has had 4 semesters of Japanese and never once had Dr. Ree.
>
That's remarkable! Then the Japanese program is getting better, I assume? (By
better, I mean bigger with more profs and more classes, of course.)
>
> : Tell him "Tony Bryant from 1981 said hello" and tell him that after 12 years
> : as an editor (including stints at the Mainichi Shinbun and Tokyo Journal)
> : I've gone back to grad school for a doctorate in medieval Japanese lit and
> : history.
>
> I would, but I'm not going to be seeing him. I'm going to be spending
> (hopefully) the next year studying abroad in Japan. If you would like to
> email him, I believe it is jr...@mailer.nospam.edu (replace nospam with "fsu").
>
> Just out of curiosity, what was your experience with the Japanese program
> at FSU?
Painful: we used Young and Nakajima. <G>
I still remember Prof. Ree telling us in week one that we'd be using kana
exclusively after the next week (despite the book!). Anyone caught writing in
Romaji would be taken out and shot (or something to that effect).
The frustrating thing was that there just wasn't much opportunity to *use* the
lingo.
>
> : Is Penny Mason still there in the art department? (She does/did Japanese
> : art.)
>
> I don't know. Quick search of the facilty at FSU reveals no Penny Mason.
Bummer.
Have you had any history classes? I loved studying under Prof. Singh.
Tony
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> Nope, still just Dr. Ree an the occasional TA or so. Nara will be staying
> on as a visiting professor next year. But there are far too few classes.
I just hit the FSU website. Man, that's shocking. It's really sad. In hindsight, I
don't know how I did it. (Of course, a year at Takushoku University really
helped.)
>
> This summer, I'm trying to bone up on Kanji before I study in Japan next
> year. Do you recommend any books for this process? Right now, I've got
> "Writing Japanese". It isn't too great, but I guess it gets the job done.
> Speaking of the summer, I wanted to take a DIS, but there will be no
> professors in the Japanese language department this summer. Dr. Ree will
> be out for a while, and Nara won't be around.
>
Actually, one of the best kanji study books I've seen is "The Kodansha Kanji
Learner's Dictionary"... man, this is *great*!
>
> : I still remember Prof. Ree telling us in week one that we'd be using kana
> : exclusively after the next week (despite the book!). Anyone caught writing in
> : Romaji would be taken out and shot (or something to that effect).
>
> I guess some things never change. Well, at least in our case, he was
> right. We learned kana like there was no tomorrow. Some cried. Some pouted.
> Everyone was distraught. But everybody learned their kana, and you have
> to respect that.
>
> : Have you had any history classes? I loved studying under Prof. Singh.
>
> I've been a Comp Sci major until a few weeks ago. The state of Asian Studies
> at FSU is minimal at best. I would've changed over before the semester, but
> there wasn't a single Japanese or Chinese related cultural class at all! I
> so went to the wrong college.
I can relate. <G>
I was a history major until I realized all my classes had Japanese themes (koto
and shakuhachi in the music department, J. art history with Penny Mason, etc...)
But if you *know* you want to do Japanese... yeah, FSU is a bad choice.
Tony
Sean Howard
: > Actually, Dr. Ree has been on sabatical in Hawaii for the past year. A
: > professor from Penn State (?) named Dr. Nara has been filling in for him.
: > My girlfriend has had 4 semesters of Japanese and never once had Dr. Ree.
: That's remarkable! Then the Japanese program is getting better, I assume? (By
: better, I mean bigger with more profs and more classes, of course.)
Nope, still just Dr. Ree an the occasional TA or so. Nara will be staying
on as a visiting professor next year. But there are far too few classes.
: Painful: we used Young and Nakajima. <G>
Actually, so did I. In semesters 4 and 5 we switched to a Japanese printed
book called something like "Intermediate Japanese". Sorry, don't have it
with me. It was a huge step up. Now they use "Japanese: The Spoken
Language" in the first year classes.
This summer, I'm trying to bone up on Kanji before I study in Japan next
year. Do you recommend any books for this process? Right now, I've got
"Writing Japanese". It isn't too great, but I guess it gets the job done.
Speaking of the summer, I wanted to take a DIS, but there will be no
professors in the Japanese language department this summer. Dr. Ree will
be out for a while, and Nara won't be around.
: I still remember Prof. Ree telling us in week one that we'd be using kana
: exclusively after the next week (despite the book!). Anyone caught writing in
: Romaji would be taken out and shot (or something to that effect).
I guess some things never change. Well, at least in our case, he was
right. We learned kana like there was no tomorrow. Some cried. Some pouted.
Everyone was distraught. But everybody learned their kana, and you have
to respect that.
: Have you had any history classes? I loved studying under Prof. Singh.
I've been a Comp Sci major until a few weeks ago. The state of Asian Studies
at FSU is minimal at best. I would've changed over before the semester, but
there wasn't a single Japanese or Chinese related cultural class at all! I
so went to the wrong college.
@@
Sean Howard
Jim Breen
>>Actually, one of the best kanji study books I've seen is "The Kodansha Kanji
>>Learner's Dictionary"... man, this is *great*!
That's because it has my name on p7a and p15a. 8-)}
Anthony J. Bryant
> In sci.lang.japan Anthony J. Bryant <ajbr...@indiana.edu> wrote:
> >>Actually, one of the best kanji study books I've seen is "The Kodansha Kanji
> >>Learner's Dictionary"... man, this is *great*!
>
> That's because it has my name on p7a and p15a. 8-)}
>
Son of a gun!
So it does.
Jim, you're okay in my book!!!
Tony
Gerald B Mathias
:> Anthony J. Bryant (ajbr...@indiana.edu) wrote:
:>
:> : I went through the whole series at FSU decades ago.
:>
:> Same here. You'll be please to know that they switched to "Japanese:
:> the Spoken Language" fairly recently.
:>
:> On another note, did you have Dr. Ree? A great teacher, but I'm scared to
:> death of the guy.
: Who else *is* there? <G>
Are you talking about Joe Ree? He has been here working on a Korean
pedagogical project with Homin Sohn since last summer. He gives me a call
now and then on English matters ("Does 'the problems of cultural clashes
in textbooks' make sense?" on Tuesday).
Joe taught Korean at IU when I got my first job teaching Japanese there in
1967. Until I read this thread I guess I had never thought of him as a
Japanese teacher though.
On the other hand, that "scared to death of the guy" sounds like someone
entirely different. I'll see if Joe knows any Tony Bryants.
Bart
Anthony J. Bryant
> In sci.lang.japan Anthony J. Bryant <ajbr...@indiana.edu> wrote:
> : Sean Howard wrote:
>
> :> Anthony J. Bryant (ajbr...@indiana.edu) wrote:
> :>
> :> : I went through the whole series at FSU decades ago.
> :>
> :> Same here. You'll be please to know that they switched to "Japanese:
> :> the Spoken Language" fairly recently.
> :>
> :> On another note, did you have Dr. Ree? A great teacher, but I'm scared to
> :> death of the guy.
>
> : Who else *is* there? <G>
>
> Are you talking about Joe Ree? He has been here working on a Korean
> pedagogical project with Homin Sohn since last summer. He gives me a call
> now and then on English matters ("Does 'the problems of cultural clashes
> in textbooks' make sense?" on Tuesday).
That's him, yup!!
> On the other hand, that "scared to death of the guy" sounds like someone
> entirely different. I'll see if Joe knows any Tony Bryants.
For the record, I wasn't one of the "scared to death of the guy" folks. <G>
I know there were people who *were* afraid of him, but I could never understand
it. I think he was great!
I do remember one spot drill in my first year... he would say a word in
English, snap his fingers and point at you and you had to say it in Japanese.
He said "go for a walk" and pointed at me. For some reason, "sanpo suru" went
out the back of my head, and as God is my witness, from nowhere the words
"chinpo suru" came out of my mouth. I had no idea what it was (then) but he
laughed and said, "Oh, Tony-san, we don't know *that* word!" <GG>
Please tell him I said hello.
Tony
Sean Howard
: : Who else *is* there? <G>
: Are you talking about Joe Ree? He has been here working on a Korean
: pedagogical project with Homin Sohn since last summer. He gives me a call
: now and then on English matters ("Does 'the problems of cultural clashes
: in textbooks' make sense?" on Tuesday).
I guess that would be him. He also teaches Korean at FSU.
: On the other hand, that "scared to death of the guy" sounds like someone
: entirely different. I'll see if Joe knows any Tony Bryants.
Dr. Ree is kinda famous around FSU as a hard ass teachers. There are a
couple people who are not very happy that he is coming back - some because
they've heard horror stories about him, and some because they've
actually had him. I've had conversations with business majors who have
asked me if I had Dr. Ree for Japanese, and would feel sorry for me
when I told them I did. I've actually seen a few girls reduced to tears
in my first year classes. While this is all true, and not exaggerated
in the least, I think Dr. Ree is one of the finest teachers I have ever
had the pleasure of being taught by, and one of the rare people who have
earned my respect.
FSU is generally a very relaxed lazy school, and I've passed classes
that I've attended only a few times (senior level classes too). But in
Japanese, I was awake and in class every morning at 8:00, which is something
which hasn't happened since. It is a testament to his Japanese program that
I didn't drop out of FSU sooner than I did, and that I came back sooner
than I planned.
He isn't strict, he isn't mean. He is fair and he is a nice guy. But he
expects a lot out of his students, and given the lazy atmosphere bred
by FSU, a lot of students aren't quite willing to put the work into it.
In a way, it was a good thing. It seperated those who were willing to
learn Japanese from those who were willing to take Japanese (big difference
really).
Haven't you ever had a teacher who made you work really hard for a class,
and you resented it the entire way, but after you got out, you realized how
much you really learned, and suddenly the work seemed worth it? You may not
like doing the work, but the end results are completely worth it.
You're not going to tell him I said this are you? I'm still in the Japanese
program at FSU, you know.
@@
Sean Howard
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> Haven't you ever had a teacher who made you work really hard for a class,
> and you resented it the entire way, but after you got out, you realized how
> much you really learned, and suddenly the work seemed worth it? You may not
> like doing the work, but the end results are completely worth it.
>
Kinda. I've got a prof here at IU who people fear. Classes begin with 45-50
people, but on the day of the final there are maybe half that. He is a stickler
for detail, takes no shortcuts, allows no compromise. He's a bear in grading
and coursework, but I learn more from his classes than any other.
I love and nearly worship this man.
>
> You're not going to tell him I said this are you? I'm still in the Japanese
> program at FSU, you know.
LOL! Your secret is safe with me. <G>
Tony
Amaterasu Hime
>What worked for me: a 4-year college course at a university with a top-rated
>Japanese program, followed by a brief period living in Japan.
>
>
>
>
Im planning to major in the good old nihongo next year in college... where did
you attend, if you dont mind me asking?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of all the things I've lost..... I miss my mind the most
Im thinking of bidding the right to my sig. on e-Bay >:)
Everybody cheer! I got into my first college!! Yatta!!
Neill Walker
Text) They still use this at the University of Alberta. In my first year
course we didn't even open the textbook... the prof supplied every lesson
printed out in kana instead. She told us right away that even she couldn't
comprehend the grammar explanations. I can't believe this book is used
ANYWHERE. It's completely useless for learning any kind of conversational
Japanese. As well, the courses at my school follow it religiously, so
there's no deviation from the book. I can't think of anybody that could
make sense of it or who could honestly say they felt like they were readily
learning the language. I complain about it every chance I get, write about
it in my course evaluations, etc etc but nothing ever changes. No wonder
the dropout rate from class to class is over 50%. I'm spending $400 for the
course, it's not like spending an extra $25 to get a half decent textbook is
going to kill me. I'd rather pay extra and get my money's worth than save a
few bucks and get crap!
If anybody has any suggestions for a textbook that I could use
extra-curricularly (as I don't think I have the will to continue on in
university), pleeeease send me an e-mail!
Neill
"eirias" <NOSPAM...@bu.edu> wrote in message news:3908A9...@bu.edu...
> Michael Cash wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:46:45 -0400, eirias <NOSPAM...@bu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >> or "Learn Japanese, New College
> > >> Text" by John Young and Kimiko Nakajima-Okano.
> > >
> > >Avoid this book like the plauge.
> > >It's one of the worst written and contructed books imaginable.
> >
> > It is the text I used, many many years ago. I did part 1 through
self-study and
> > course work, as well as part of part 2. I did a small portion of part 3
as
> > self-study. This and the Mizutanis' "Introduction to Modern Japanese"
(which I
> > thought sucked) were the only texts I used.
> >
> > I now (and have for many years) make my living speaking and using
nothing but
> > the Japanese language, and read almost nothing but Japanese books. All
this in
> > spite of having used nothing but the "worst written and constructed
books
> > imaginable". How about that!
>
> I plan on trying to do much the same thing. If the will to learn is
> there, you could learn with ANYTHING.
>
> > I thought it was a great text for people outside Japan. Entirely
different
> > matter if you're actually in Japan, though.
>
> I don't think it is.
> I complained about them elsewhere recently; I'll just clip my comments
> here.
> These books are used at BU and at many high school Japanese programs; I
> can only assume that this is because they are cheap.
> 'Jigoku no hon' as we refer to them, are easily the most mind-bendingly
> bad textbooks I've ever used. If there's a worse Japanese text book on
> the market, I don't want to use it. The irritating over-reliance of
> romanji creats much confusion; for example, the book uses the 'oo' for
> おう method of romanization, which is bad enough, but because everything
> is in romanji, the entire class mis-spelled 'tooi.' Vocabulary is
> parceled out in a seemingly random order; there are really useful words
> I've never learned, and yet I know 18 words for 'manufactured goods.'
> The vocabulary is taken from dialogues apparently written to demonstrate
> the new grammer for the chapter; not only are these dialogues
> mind-bendingly dull, but they frequently trap the authors into
> explaining a concept that involves grammer they don't plan on teaching
> for a few more pages. The explanations are written in a very formal
> style, and badly; when I can stay awake long enough to read the
> explanations, the only occasionally have the courtesy to be
> comprehensible. Several minutes breaking the paragraph down into
> logical components usually lets me figure it out, but the math is
> killing me. Speaking of math, the books brilliant solution to the
> problem of explaining keigo was massive flow-charts aided by examples
> using grammer and vocab we haven't learned yet. The lack of a compiled
> glossary requires us to lug around all four volumes so we can look up
> 'shoeshine' when they pull the word on us after two volumes of disuse.
> But the two main reasons to avoid it are the romanji, which no decent
> teacher will allow after the first few weeks, and the completely
> arbitrary word/kanji selection, which has us learning really obscure
> kanji long before we know very basic, everyday characters.
>
> --
> President of the Boston University Anime Club.
> Manga translations for Vol 1-2 of Yokohama Shopping Diary,
> Volumes 1-8 of The Violinist of Hamelin & Vol 13-14 of Berserk.
> http://members.xoom.com/McGuffins/translations/
Neil Nadelman
<neilll...@home.com> wrote:
>Wow, what a great summary of this textbook. (Learn Japanese: New College
>Text) They still use this at the University of Alberta. In my first year
>course we didn't even open the textbook... the prof supplied every lesson
>printed out in kana instead. She told us right away that even she couldn't
>comprehend the grammar explanations. I can't believe this book is used
>ANYWHERE. It's completely useless for learning any kind of conversational
>Japanese. As well, the courses at my school follow it religiously, so
>there's no deviation from the book. I can't think of anybody that could
>make sense of it or who could honestly say they felt like they were readily
>learning the language. I complain about it every chance I get, write about
>it in my course evaluations, etc etc but nothing ever changes. No wonder
>the dropout rate from class to class is over 50%. I'm spending $400 for the
>course, it's not like spending an extra $25 to get a half decent textbook is
>going to kill me. I'd rather pay extra and get my money's worth than save a
>few bucks and get crap!
>
>If anybody has any suggestions for a textbook that I could use
>extra-curricularly (as I don't think I have the will to continue on in
>university), pleeeease send me an e-mail!
>
>Neill
Welcome to my nightmare. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who
is still baffled by those textbooks. Anyway, I actually found that
both the Power Japanese series of books and the Dictionaries of Basic
(and Advanced) Japanese Grammar are excellent supplements to bad
Japanese courses everywhere.
- Neil Nadelman
kosugi makoto
Neill Walker wrote:
Wow, what a great summary of this textbook. (Learn Japanese: New College
Text) They still use this at the University of Alberta. In my first year
course we didn't even open the textbook... the prof supplied every lesson
printed out in kana instead. She told us right away that even she couldn't
comprehend the grammar explanations. I can't believe this book is used
ANYWHERE. It's completely useless for learning any kind of conversational
Japanese. As well, the courses at my school follow it religiously, so
there's no deviation from the book. I can't think of anybody that could
make sense of it or who could honestly say they felt like they were readily
learning the language. I complain about it every chance I get, write about
it in my course evaluations, etc etc but nothing ever changes. No wonder
the dropout rate from class to class is over 50%. I'm spending $400 for the
course, it's not like spending an extra $25 to get a half decent textbook is
going to kill me. I'd rather pay extra and get my money's worth than save a
few bucks and get crap!If anybody has any suggestions for a textbook that I could use
extra-curricularly (as I don't think I have the will to continue on in
university), pleeeease send me an e-mail!Neill
My college courses use Yookoso! throughout the first four semesters. I can't believe how easy it was to learn the language so I guess the texts had to help. I think they are very interesting at least as they have tons of culture info as well. The subtitle of the first book is Introduction to Contemporary Japanese, and the second one is Continuing with Contemporary Japanese.
-Kosugi Makoto
Ben Bullock
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Thankyou.
Aaron
called the "The Wonderful World of Sazae-san" by Machiko Hasegawa. All
of the strips have the original Japanese text, as well as the English
translation. The strips are a little old fashioned, but lots of fun to
read.
Ben Bullock
Aaron <aaro...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3962C7CD...@home.com...
I borrowed these books from the library but I didn't think the translations
were very good. Sometimes you had to read the Japanese to get the joke
because of the translation.
pi
Hello,
Can somebody tell me ( direct to my Email) where can I find information in
the internet about Japanese women`s language.
Thanks
Shelly
Louis Patterson
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Can somebody tell me ( direct to my Email) where can I find information in
> the internet about Japanese women`s language.
Yes we can.
Louis
--
Louis Patterson l.patt...@student.unimelb.edu.au
Joe Drago
<8mkjbn$4rc$5...@news.netvision.net.il>:
>Hello,
>
>Can somebody tell me ( direct to my Email) where can I find information in
>the internet about Japanese women`s language.
Not to sound like a broken record, but the quickest way to NOT get a
response in Usenet is to ask for the reply in email. "If you have no time
for the newsgroup, then the newsgroup has no time for you."
Besides, maybe I am just ignorant, but what IS Japanese -women's- language?
I assume that they speak the same Japanese as males do. {g}
Joe Drago
ji...@slip.net
Takeyasu Wakabayashi
ji...@slip.net (Joe Drago) writes:
> Besides, maybe I am just ignorant, but what IS Japanese -women's- language?
> I assume that they speak the same Japanese as males do. {g}
Many particles, pronouns and interjections are for use only by
women. Not so rare in Asian languages.
The most famous example may be the "wa" ending particle used
in Tokyo dialect(I've never heard this outside Tokyo, even not in
Kanagawa prefecture, but maybe I'm wrong.)
"Sou da wa! Demo sonna kototte arukashira?"
"Sonna koto itte nai wa yo, shitsurei shichaun dakara!"
Hmmmm, she sounds like a Tokyo woman for me.
--
Takeyasu Wakabayashi
Faculty of Economics, Toyama University
twa...@eco.toyama-u.ac.jp