Animation art
Mike Appel
I'm interested in learning about animation art for the purpose of
investing. Can anybody tell me how I would go about finding which pieces
are valuable, where to buy and sell, etc.
If I'm asking in the wrong conference, please point me in the right
direction.
Happy Holidays Everybody!
Andy G Ihnatko
I'm unqualified to pass on anything more authoritative than Helpful Hints,
so here are a few:
1) Animation art really isn't an investment. Buying a piece of art
hoping that one day you'll be able to sell it for more than you paid
is a quick route to a broken heart. Especially today; cel art (actual
painted cels) is priced through the roof right now and holding, which
means that while a $1,000 _Roger Rabbit_ cel at auction a few years ago
would probably fetch 3-$4K today, if you bought a $4,000 cel today you'd
probably have to wait a decade before you saw a "profit". It's not worth
what you paid for it, it's only worth what someone _else_ will pay
_you_ for it, and if you can't find a buyer you're just plain out of luck.
2) That said, it's important that you know your terminology. Know the
difference between a production cel (actually used in the production),
a repro cel (handpainted, mass-produced cel not actually used in any
production), a sericel (machine-printed, mass-produced cel not actually...)
and so forth. Actually, this illustrates another problem: right now,
Disney is the only movie studio with a firm committment to feature
animation, and they've disposed of cels altogether in favor of computerized
inking and coloring. Therefore, they put out "limited editions" (snicker)
of handpainted "cels" from films like "Beauty And The Beast", for which no
actual cels ever actually existed. They're asking three grand a pop.
In _general_, reproductions just don't hold their value.
3) If you're either (a) mercenary or (b) looking for some art you can
actually afford, look into sketches. These are drawings used in various
phases of the production (storyboard, model (guide) sheets, finished pencil
animation) which IMHO are much more attractive for collectors. For one,
they're a lot more interesting, often including special directions and
annotations; second, they're a lot less fragile (generally) than production
cels of the same era; and best of all, as a group they've been overlooked
by speculators so prices are low. Example: in a recent auction of
"Aladdin" production art, some moron paid $2,000 for an uninteresting
repro cel on top of an original production background whose artwork
consisted solely of a plain blue airbrushed tone. By contrast, last
year I bought a spectacular production drawing from "Snow White" consisting
of a fully-rendered Evil Queen for $800.
4) Whichever way you go, get into the habit of sending away for and reading
auction catalogs and mailings from animation art galleries. This will
give you a good idea of what sort of artwork is out there (helps if you
eventually decide on a category of art, like production cels from TV
superhero shows, for instance) and what the going rates are at the moment.
5) Always keep in mind that no dealer is ever offering you ANYTHING special.
Easiest trap to fall into is deciding "Dangit, I'd better snap this up!"
Chances are excellent that if you wait, you'll find another piece of art
just like it (or better), cheaper.
6) Finally, buy from a reputable dealer. Animation art is a piece of cake to
fake -- all you need is a videotape of the movie and a sheet of cellophane
to slap over the screen -- and it's not difficult to get stung.
Sources -- Hmm. I think the FAQ has a few addresses of magazines and
galleries. I subscribe to the Sotheby animation catalogs (three or four of 'em
come out a year for animation stuff) and they're great, not only for the
above reasons but because they're relatively cheap and sturdy books full of
neat pictures...
-- Andy
--
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/| | | | _ | \ Andy Ihnatko \ Discount
/-| |\ /| |/ | |\ |\ (| | |< () \ an...@world.std.com \ Neurosurgery
.........../................................................................
Bill Rubin
In <CILA8...@world.std.com>, an...@world.std.com (Andy G Ihnatko) writes:
>
>1) Animation art really isn't an investment. Buying a piece of art
> hoping that one day you'll be able to sell it for more than you paid
> is a quick route to a broken heart. Especially today; cel art (actual
Definitely true, which is why it is important that you actually LIKE what
you are buying and not pay a fortune for something just because you think
you can make money on it. Of course you should also select stuff based on
the hope that it will go up in price someday, so try to buy pieces that do
have the potential to appreciate.
>2) That said, it's important that you know your terminology. ...
> Actually, this illustrates another problem: right now,
> Disney is the only movie studio with a firm committment to feature
> animation, and they've disposed of cels altogether in favor of computerized
> inking and coloring. Therefore, they put out "limited editions" (snicker)
> of handpainted "cels" from films like "Beauty And The Beast", for which no
> actual cels ever actually existed. They're asking three grand a pop.
> In _general_, reproductions just don't hold their value.
Is this true for the Disney stuff as well? I would personally think that
so long as you don't get something really ugly, the Disney stuff is not
likely to go below what Disney is charging for it. Plus you can get 10%
off the prices with your Magic Kingdom Club card.
>3) If you're either (a) mercenary or (b) looking for some art you can
> actually afford, look into sketches.
> By contrast, last
> year I bought a spectacular production drawing from "Snow White" consisting
> of a fully-rendered Evil Queen for $800.
I was just looking at buying sketches fairly recently, I even had a guy in
NYC who was really hot to sell me some Snow White. I went back and forth
with him a few times, decided I did not want eyes closed (very important I
have learned, this lowered his credibility somewhat since he had not told
me that), then he sent me some other stuff. I also had copies of other
sketches sent to me by some other dealers. Finally, my wife and I went to
a "local" (not quite local but closer than this other guy) dealer and
actually looked at a couple of sketches in person. The bottom line is they
don't (for the most part) look nearly as nice as the cels, even the
sericels. Can you actually look at your Evil Queen on the wall and say it
looks nicer than a $250 Disney sericel of Snow White and one of the
dwarves? One interesting thing that this dealer did tell me (and he had
told us to come down and he would educate us and if we bought from him fine
but he was not expecting us to) was that no one really knows how many
sketches there are out there. If someone all of a sudden finds a cache of
Les Clark's or others the market could drop. Also, the guy in NYC who was
pushing me to buy from him was claiming that prices had gone up 30% in the
recent NYC auctions.. this other guy said he was there and the prices were
fairly flat.
>4) Whichever way you go, get into the habit of sending away for and reading
> auction catalogs and mailings from animation art galleries. This will
> give you a good idea of what sort of artwork is out there (helps if you
> eventually decide on a category of art, like production cels from TV
> superhero shows, for instance) and what the going rates are at the moment.
Interesting idea.. how much is a subscription to the auction catalog?
>5) Always keep in mind that no dealer is ever offering you ANYTHING special.
> Easiest trap to fall into is deciding "Dangit, I'd better snap this up!"
> Chances are excellent that if you wait, you'll find another piece of art
> just like it (or better), cheaper.
Right. What really ticked me off about this NYC dealer was he was pushing
me to let him ship me the sketches and if I did not like them I could
return them within 30 days. That was too much pressure for me. It was
getting to the point where I was dreading picking up the phone because I
thought it would be him. This other guy was more than willing to sell me
sketches if I wanted, but he wasn't pushing me.
>6) Finally, buy from a reputable dealer. Animation art is a piece of cake to
> fake -- all you need is a videotape of the movie and a sheet of cellophane
> to slap over the screen -- and it's not difficult to get stung.
Very, very important. Also someone you feel comfortable with.
-- Bill ru...@watson.ibm.com
Steve Plunkett
I have been collecting for over 5 years and head a local animation art
collector club.
Amberle S Ferrian
Bill Rubin <ru...@watson.ibm.com> wrote:
>In <CILA8...@world.std.com>, an...@world.std.com (Andy G Ihnatko) writes:
>> Disney is the only movie studio with a firm committment to feature
>> animation, and they've disposed of cels altogether in favor of
>> computerized inking and coloring. Therefore, they put out "limited
>> editions" (snicker) of handpainted "cels" from films like "Beauty And
>> The Beast", for which no actual cels ever actually existed. They're
>> asking three grand a pop.
>> In _general_, reproductions just don't hold their value.
>
>Is this true for the Disney stuff as well? I would personally think that
>so long as you don't get something really ugly, the Disney stuff is not
>likely to go below what Disney is charging for it. Plus you can get 10%
>off the prices with your Magic Kingdom Club card.
I think it's kinda too soon to say whether reproductions will appreciate in
value. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't limited editions and
sericels and such a rather recent phenomenon? After all, collecting animation
art didn't get big until about a decade or so ago; before then, you couldn't
give the stuff away. While it's true that they're not likely to appreciate
as much as actual production cels and backgrounds, who knows what prices
they'll bring in the future?
On a purely ancedotal level, I've been offered nearly double the going price
of $250 for my copy of the first BatB serigraph (the one with Belle and Beast
walking down the staircase). It isn't for sale (sorry :-) and I don't ever
expect it to be worth a whole lot of money, but it is nice to know it's still
worth more than what I paid for it to someone.
>The bottom line is they [animation sketches]
>don't (for the most part) look nearly as nice as the cels, even the
>sericels. Can you actually look at your Evil Queen on the wall and say it
>looks nicer than a $250 Disney sericel of Snow White and one of the
>dwarves?
A local animation gallery dealer referred to animation sketches as sort of a
well-kept secret in collecting animation art. The first thing people think of
when it comes to animation art are the cels, of course, since they're bright
and colorful. But I for one am pretty impressed by the drawings themselves.
It's amazing to think how expressive an artist can make a group of scratches
on paper. And on a purely practical level, it's the only way to get some
vintage animation art, since the cels for a lot of old films no longer exist.
I'd hate to imagine how much a cel of the Evil Queen would cost.
>One interesting thing that this dealer did tell me (and he had
>told us to come down and he would educate us and if we bought from him fine
>but he was not expecting us to) was that no one really knows how many
>sketches there are out there. If someone all of a sudden finds a cache of
>Les Clark's or others the market could drop.
True. But OTOH, if you're collecting simply for the fun and enjoyment of it,
who cares? If you're looking at animation art as primarily an investment,
you may want to talk to your banker or stock broker first, since they're
certain to have better things to invest your money in than animation art.
>>4) Whichever way you go, get into the habit of sending away for and reading
>> auction catalogs and mailings from animation art galleries. This will
>> give you a good idea of what sort of artwork is out there (helps if you
>> eventually decide on a category of art, like production cels from TV
>> superhero shows, for instance) and what the going rates are at the moment.
>Interesting idea.. how much is a subscription to the auction catalog?
There's a list of animation galleries in the rec.arts.disney FAQ, which you
can find at rtfm.mit.edu, /pub/usenet/rec.arts.disney. You can just call the
individual galleries and ask. Many galleries will offer free catalogues, while
others will charge a nominal subscription fee, which they may waive if you
start buying from them. :-) You can also check out a copy
of an animation magazine, such as StoryBoard--The Art of Laughter, and get
numbers from the ads.
---
Amberle Ferrian <amb...@epx.cis.umn.edu> | They are one person
Writer/Not Ready For ToonTown Player | They are two alone
in future "Disney Improv Nite" show | They are three together
theme-park walkaround Belle | They are for each other...
and general Sherri Stoner fan/wannabe | --"Helplessly Hoping"
in The Future Disney Cabinet | Crosby, Stills, and Nash
Bill Rubin
>
>On a purely ancedotal level, I've been offered nearly double the going price
>of $250 for my copy of the first BatB serigraph (the one with Belle and Beast
>walking down the staircase). It isn't for sale (sorry :-) and I don't ever
>expect it to be worth a whole lot of money, but it is nice to know it's still
>worth more than what I paid for it to someone.
This is actually quite true, it has been confirmed to me by a couple of
animation galleries. I have one of these, too - I got it from Suspended
Animation at the WDW Village, they called me when they got some in because
I had left my name when we were down there the year before. Amazingly,
when they were selling these, everyone else was sold out, and they were
already worth more than the $225 they were selling them to me for.
Unfortunately, no more 10% MKC discount at Suspended Animation, so no more
business from me!
As for why this sericel is worth more, apparently it's because it was the
first one issued from that movie. The dealer I just bought from told me
that the Aladdin "group hug" sericel is also going up in value for the same
reason, even tho IMHO it's not nearly as nice as the new Aladdin-Jasmine
sericel that was just issued. BTW, if you want to see something REALLY
nice, there is a limited edition (500) of Aladdin and Jasmine that's going
for $2700 or so. Lots of red in the background.. but too pricey for me.
BTW, has anyone bought the $500 Mickey sericel? That's the wide one that
shows him in different eras, including the sorcerer.
-- Bill ru...@watson.ibm.com
Curt Schimmel
>I think it's kinda too soon to say whether reproductions will appreciate in
>value. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't limited editions and
>sericels and such a rather recent phenomenon?
Disney starting making sericels only a couple of years ago, but they've
been doing the hand painted limited editions for about 20 years now.
It's just that they weren't making as many nor marketing them as
aggressively as they have in the last few years. In fact, I'd say that
the number of new limited editions released in the last few years has
topped the total number limited editions they've done in the 15 years
prior to that.
Of the old sold out LE's I've seen go up for re-sale, all have gone for
more than the original purchase price, some by a lot. For example, the
first Lady & the Tramp LE, the famous spaghetti scene, originally sold
for about $1400. The Cricket Gallery in Atlanta resold one a little
while ago for $3500. Also, Disney had a pair of LE cels from Song of
the South that originally sold for about $1200 for the pair. Artworks
Gallery in Virginia re-sold a pair for $2800 a year ago.
The down side is that you probably can't this much money yourself if
you happen to own one of these and want to sell it, unless you can find
the buyer and sell it to them directly with no middle man. If you sell
it to a gallery or at auction, they're going to want a pretty big
percentage for themselves. In general, a gallery will only give you
about 50% the retail value of the piece if you want to sell it to
them. The big auction houses will take a 20% cut, the smaller ones
10%. If you sell it on consignment with a gallery, they'll charge
something around 15-25%. This means that the effective appreciation
the owner will see is much less than the prices listed above.
Whether LEs will continue to appreciate or not is anybody's guess. One
danger is that they'll saturate the market since they're releasing so
much more stuff now than they used to. When the supply is greater than
the demand, the prices must fall. Original production cels seem a
safer bet, especially since Disney isn't using them anymore for feature
animation. Since the supply of these is decreasing and the demand is
still there, at least for now, the prices must go up.
By the way, IMHO, paying $3500 for the Lady & the Tramp LE is silly.
Sotheby's just sold a real nice original production cel with both Lady
and Tramp in it for $2200. It doesn't come with the pretty litho
background that the LE has, but for a couple hundred bucks you could
pay someone to paint one, and then you'd have a really nice setup for
a lower final cost.
>After all, collecting animation
>art didn't get big until about a decade or so ago; before then, you couldn't
>give the stuff away.
Yes and no. Disney started up the group that markets animation art to
consumers around 1972 (now called Disney Art Editions). That's when
the LE's started coming out. The big animation art galleries like
Gallery Lainzberg got their start about the same time.
Animation art got its start as a collectible art form about 50-60 years
ago when Walt Disney sold cels from Snow White, and later other movies,
through the Courvoisier family owned art galleries. The cels were
teamed up with studio prepared backgrounds, framed, and sold as fine
art right next to the paintings and other items in the galleries.
Re-sales of these original cels come up constantly at auctions. It's
pretty incredible to think that Walt created an entirely new form of
collectible art that long ago. Among many other things, this guy was a
merchandising genius.
Certainly though, the last ten years have seen an explosion of interest
in animation art, and hence a corresponding increase in prices. There
have also been periods were the interest almost completely dried up.
The early sixties is one example. During this period, Warner Brothers
intentionally destroyed nearly their entire archive of cels from the
40's and 50's thinking they were worthless (which at the time, they
were). Disney also junked many of their cels, and sold others for a
buck a piece at Disneyland. This ended around 1968 when renewed
interest started, which lead to the formation of Disney Art Editions
around 1972.
>>If someone all of a sudden finds a cache of
>>Les Clark's or others the market could drop.
>True. But OTOH, if you're collecting simply for the fun and enjoyment of it,
>who cares? If you're looking at animation art as primarily an investment,
>you may want to talk to your banker or stock broker first, since they're
>certain to have better things to invest your money in than animation art.
I agree. I would be pretty surprised if the order of magnitude
increase in prices we've seen over the last 10 years happens again
anytime soon. Like the stock market, interest in cels will probably
cycle up and down over time.
Curt