Who is the Most Hated Person in the History of the Animation Industry?
TMC...@gmail.com
watchdog group Action for Children's Television or ACT) to censor
cartoons during the 1970s and 1980s. In essence, she was pretty much
telling and bullying networks that animated shows couldn't show
violence and "anti-social behavior". In the end this left with really
no other option for viewers to only watch "pro-social" cartoons that
fits into her parameters. In return, Peggy Charren's biggest legacy
was probably that of the Children's Television Act of 1990. The
Children's Television Act of 1990 was further strengthened in about
1996 via the three hours of education mandate on broadcast networks.
Ironically, it really is the only reason Saturday morning cartoons
still exist among over-the-air broadcasters, since all the profitable
cartoons and kids shows have long since moved to cable (i.e. Cartoon
Network, NickToons, Toon Disney, etc.).
*Alfred Kahn - Alfred Kahn is the CEO of 4Kids Entertainment. Kahn has
basically been criticized by traditional anime fans, who believe that
his "Americanization" and censorship of anime licensed by 4Kids
tarnishes their original format.
*Fred Calvert - Fred Calvert is the man who was chosen to finish "The
Thief and the Cobbler" (or "Arabian Knight" as it was theatrically
released as in the United States in 1995) after Richard Williams was
fired from his 20+ year pet project.
*Jamie Kellner - Wrestling fans hate Jamie Kellner because he ordered
the cancellation of WCW programming on TBS/TNT. Eric Bischoff and his
group of investors were on the verge of purchasing WCW from Time
Warner. But when Kellner had the shows cancelled, this gave Vince
McMahon the opportunity to purchase his competition and have a virtual
monopoly on the North American pro wrestling market. Anyway, Jamie
Kelner was also the WB executive who made sweeping changes, which led
to the cancellation/retinkering of certain beloved Silver Age WB shows
(i.e. "Animaniacs", "Freakazoid!", "Road Rovers", "Histeria!", "The
Legend of Calamity Jane", and "Pinky and the Brain"). Kellner has been
maligned for allegedly ignoring such shows' popularity among older
demographics, among whom the programs often got higher ratings than in
the 2-11 demographic (a la "Pokemon") at which Kids' WB! was primarily
aimed.
*Bob Camp - Bob Camp is the guy who took over from John K./Spumco on
the production of "Ren and Stimpy" when Nickelodeon fired John K. When
Camp and his Games Animation production company took over, I think
that fans felt that the show became too reliant on cheap gross out
jokes. Ironically, when Spumco revived "Ren and Stimpy" on the "Adult
Party Cartoon" on SpikeTV, those episodes were even more hated by the
fans than the Games produced episodes.
*Michael Eisner - Eisner gained a reputation during his time as the
CEO of the Disney Company for allegedly micromanaging the Disney
animators out of their jobs, literally forcing Pixar away, killing a
lot of the "Disney Afternoon" style shows by only letting them run a
maximum of 65 episodes, and churring out straight-to-DVD/video "cheap-
quels" to films such as "The Little Mermaid", "The Lion King",
"Aladdin", "Cinderella", "Peter Pan", etc.
*Glen Kennedy - Kennedy's animation studio worked on "Tiny Toon
Adventures", "A Pup Named Scooby Doo", and many "Disney Afternoon"
shows. Animation fans have criticized Kennedy for his apparent knack
of sloppiness (e.g. often lumpy, bouncy, and stretchy movements) on
the shows he and his company worked on when compared to StarToons (who
also worked on "Tiny Toons").
*Mike Scully - Mike Scully was the show runner for "The Simpsons" from
1997-2001. During the time he was the show runner or exectutive
producer, there was an seemingly increased usage of celebrity guest
voices, more reliance on slapstick and lowbrow humor, and the
characters became more one-dimensional. In addition, many episodes
during this period centered around Homer, who was seemingly portrayed
as being very mean-spirited.
*Carl Macek - Macek was the producer and story editor of
"Robotech" (which was originally made up of three unrelated anime).
Fans of anime have criticized Macek (who has been dubbed "The
Antichrist" on usernet forums) for changing the dialogue in order to
remove what he called "ethnic gestures". Also, Macek has been heavily
criticized for the major, and some fans argue, pointless changes to
the dubbing of "Aura Battler Dunbine".
*Leon Schlesinger - Schlesinger's independent animation studio would
eventually become Warner Bros. Cartoons. Schlesigner had a reputation
for being a very hard-nosed business man. His animators worked in a
dilapidated studio, and he briefly shut down the studio in 1941 and
1942 when unionized employees demanded a pay raise. Also, animators
who worked with him also found him conceited and somewhat foppish,
wearing too much cologne and dressing like a dandy.
*Fred Quimby - Quimby was the producer in charge of the old Metro-
Goldwyn-Mayer cartoon studio. Quimby was very unliked by those who
worked with him. He apparently had no sense of humor to call upon
(ironic considering that his studio produced the "Tom and Jerry"
cartoons). He also apparently knew nothing about animation, as
cartoons were a strange thing to him. Quimby was also known to turn
down requests for bigger budgets, raises and special dispensations of
funds.
*Paul Terry - Paul Terry was the founder of the Terrytoons animation
studio, who produced the "Mighty Mouse" and "Heckle and Jeckle"
cartoons among others. Through much of its history, the studio was
considered one of the lowest quality houses in the field. Terry was
extremely conservative at producing cartoons. So to that end,
Terrytoons had the lowest budgets and it was among the slowest to
adapt to new technologies such as sound (in about 1930) and
Technicolor (in 1942), while its graphic style remained remarkably
static for decades. Terrytoons' rather inflexable release schedule
allowed them to provide a new cartoon every other week, regardless of
the cost to the quality of the films.
Patrick McNamara
<TMC...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f4f41a85-0d86-4fe3...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> *Peggy Charren - Peggy Charren spearheaded a major movement (via her
She may have led it, but it was parents (primarily mothers) who pushed for
it. The Comic Book Code also greatly contributed to this idea.
>
> *Alfred Kahn - Alfred Kahn is the CEO of 4Kids Entertainment. Kahn has
Alot of anime wouldn't fit the CTA requirements. I would blame the CTA, not
Kahn.
>
> *Fred Calvert - Fred Calvert is the man who was chosen to finish "The
> Thief and the Cobbler" (or "Arabian Knight" as it was theatrically
> released as in the United States in 1995) after Richard Williams was
> fired from his 20+ year pet project.
I had the impression the task was assigned to him. It's hard to say if it
even would have been finished if Williams held onto it.
> *Michael Eisner - Eisner gained a reputation during his time as the
I understand he also use to program ABCs Saturday morning back in the 70s.
He single-handedly destroyed Disney animation. They've yet to be the
animation studio they were before everything was shut down.
> *Leon Schlesinger - Schlesinger's independent animation studio would
>
> *Fred Quimby - Quimby was the producer in charge of the old Metro-
>
> *Paul Terry - Paul Terry was the founder of the Terrytoons animation
They don't sound much different than any other businessmen. They may not
have had much of a budget to begin with so they can't be blamed for being
cheap. Staff alone could easily cost $10,000 a week or more. It would
require a look at the accounting books to say for certain how cheap they
were being.
--
Patrick McNamara
E-mail: patjmc...@gmail.com
Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/writerpatrick
Podcast Ping podcast: http://podcastping.blogspot.com
Torrentcast: http://www.mininova.org/rss.xml?user=PodcastPing
Derek Janssen
> <TMC...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f4f41a85-0d86-4fe3...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>*Peggy Charren - Peggy Charren spearheaded a major movement (via her
>
> She may have led it, but it was parents (primarily mothers) who pushed for
> it. The Comic Book Code also greatly contributed to this idea.
It was her half-formed bill that briefly shackled network animation's
range of allowable subjects, and stuck us with nothing but
"Doug"/"Recess" schoolkid clones for most of the entire 90's, before the
industry eventually learned to ignore her...
>>*Fred Calvert - Fred Calvert is the man who was chosen to finish "The
>>Thief and the Cobbler" (or "Arabian Knight" as it was theatrically
>>released as in the United States in 1995) after Richard Williams was
>>fired from his 20+ year pet project.
>
> I had the impression the task was assigned to him. It's hard to say if it
> even would have been finished if Williams held onto it.
One could argue that Richard "The age of weirdo 70's indies" Williams
ain't exactly on the A-list either...
>>*Michael Eisner - Eisner gained a reputation during his time as the
>
> I understand he also use to program ABCs Saturday morning back in the 70s.
> He single-handedly destroyed Disney animation. They've yet to be the
> animation studio they were before everything was shut down.
Any mention of Eisner must make mention of a certain other executive
behind the throne--
An executive with no animation background whatsoever, who was handed the
post-Ron Miller reins of an animation division in trouble and told by
Eisner "It's *your* problem now"...
And who, twelve years later went on to take credit for half of Disney's
hits, and stealing most of the others for another studio--whose
animation job he'd gotten on the strength of claiming credit for "Lion
King"--before making the (albeit misquoted) sweeping pronouncements that
instrumentally CAUSED Eisner to singlehandedly destroy Disney animation.
There is no Eisner history without Jeffrey Katzenberg. No cel studio
would have been destroyed in 2002 without Shrek or Sinbad.
The two execs will be forever linked in historical destiny.
>>*Leon Schlesinger - Schlesinger's independent animation studio would
>>
>>*Fred Quimby - Quimby was the producer in charge of the old Metro-
>>
>>*Paul Terry - Paul Terry was the founder of the Terrytoons animation
Okay, we'll give you that last one... ;)
> They don't sound much different than any other businessmen. They may not
> have had much of a budget to begin with so they can't be blamed for being
> cheap. Staff alone could easily cost $10,000 a week or more. It would
> require a look at the accounting books to say for certain how cheap they
> were being.
Schlesinger at least stuck up for the Terrace when they did have a hit--
Rule was, if it mde money, do another one like it, and that was about
the extent of creative bullying as they got.
That said, I see a few historical names conspicuous by their absences:
- Don "One neurotic puppy" Bluth
- A race-paranoid black Disney animator named Clarence Muse, later
discharged by Disney, who took out his disgruntled-employee frustrations
by running to the NAACP and claiming that a certain 40's Disney animated
at the time was "racist".
- John K....Most hated? We'll let history decide, while we're waiting
for an entire 90's/early-00's generation of animators to get over their
"spastic retro-kitsch" phase, and figure out what's actually funny again.
Derek Janssen (and if it wasn't for Macek's "Dunbine" dubbing, I
wouldn't understand what the heck was going ON, from the original dialogue!)
eja...@verizon.net
Juan F. Lara
- Juan F. Lara
Arty McToon
William Hanna and Joseph Barbera- limited tv animation pioneers.
Repeating backgrounds, only the lips, arms, and legs of the characters
move. Produced nothing but copies of "Scooby Doo" in the 1970s.
Lou Scheimer- Filmation Studios- Adapted good established ideas with
constantlly re-used animation movements and character designs.
Stories taught (shudder) lessons.
Mark Fowler- FCC chairman in the 1980s. Allowed weekday toy-based tv
cartoon shows to premiere (the last being the 1970s "Hot Wheels"
show) beginning with "He-Man".
Andy Heyward- DIC productions. Produced a lot of 1980s-era tv
cartoons...lots of overacting Canadian voice talent and cheap Japanese
animation.
Arty McToon
Of course, they all worked on a television budget for weekly and daily
programs.
Cut corners, make the tv network execs happy, and get those half hour
shows ready for broadcast on time.
I respect those guys, by the way.
Derek Janssen
> A hate list for full animation "purists":
>
> William Hanna and Joseph Barbera- limited tv animation pioneers.
> Repeating backgrounds, only the lips, arms, and legs of the characters
> move. Produced nothing but copies of "Scooby Doo" in the 1970s.
Among Cartoon Network Gen-X zombies, yes.
Among actual animation enthusiasts, no:
The historians credit Bill & Joe with, quote, "saving" animation by
bringing exclusive toons to that new TV medium, after most studios
closed down their animation divisions in the 50's--
And giving a lot of the classic guys a reason to keep on working,
including WB's Warren Foster and Michael Maltese (and their taste for
old-radio Jack Benny humor), and Dan Gordon of wartime-Popeye fame.
(Hey, they couldn't *all* go over and work for Walter Lantz, like Tex did.)
Oh, and ftr, CN-Boy, Bill&Joe produced Scooby-Doo (hoping to keep the
"adventure" idea going with their success on Jonny Quest), but most of
the 70's clones were under Charles Nichols and Iwao Takamoto's watch,
after studio regimes changed--
Read some history before you dig out the Jabberjaw jokes, it'll do you good.
> Lou Scheimer- Filmation Studios- Adapted good established ideas with
> constantlly re-used animation movements and character designs.
> Stories taught (shudder) lessons.
Okay, we'll give you that one: Pure, PURE evil.
(And to think that Thundercats thought it was "ripping off" He-Man, when
it was in fact blowing Filmation off the map, by using the new 80's idea
of outsourcing Japanese studios for animation, while He-Man still used
the same domestic Archies/Star Trek head-turns...)
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Arty McToon
I grew up with Hanna-Barbera and Filmation cartoons myself. I own
most of the DVD collections for each studio's shows.
The limited animation may be cheap and repetitive, but the sound
effects, scripts, and presentations were polished and the characters
were fun to watch. Even more watchable than a good number of the
stuff on Cartoon Network for me.
I even tolerated Filmation's repetitive movements if the story was
interesting.
Given the volume to produce several series of 13 half hour episodes
with self-contained stories on time and on budget in time for
broadcast for each tv season, Hanna-Barbera and Filmation knew the
business end of things to keep the studios running and making the tv
executives happy.
My list, however, probably does echo those *critics* of tv
animation...even if there isn't much time to get the full body
movements and shadows in a certain scene right in a tv episode.
Anim8rFSK
Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
> >>*Michael Eisner - Eisner gained a reputation during his time as the
> >
> > I understand he also use to program ABCs Saturday morning back in the 70s.
> > He single-handedly destroyed Disney animation. They've yet to be the
> > animation studio they were before everything was shut down.
>
> Any mention of Eisner must make mention of a certain other executive
> behind the throne--
> An executive with no animation background whatsoever, who was handed the
> post-Ron Miller reins of an animation division in trouble and told by
> Eisner "It's *your* problem now"...
> And who, twelve years later went on to take credit for half of Disney's
> hits, and stealing most of the others for another studio--whose
> animation job he'd gotten on the strength of claiming credit for "Lion
> King"--before making the (albeit misquoted) sweeping pronouncements that
> instrumentally CAUSED Eisner to singlehandedly destroy Disney animation.
>
> There is no Eisner history without Jeffrey Katzenberg. No cel studio
> would have been destroyed in 2002 without Shrek or Sinbad.
> The two execs will be forever linked in historical destiny.
You like Katz a *lot* more than I do.
--
Star Trek 09:
No Shat, No Show.
Derek Janssen
>>And who, twelve years later went on to take credit for half of Disney's
>>hits, and stealing most of the others for another studio--whose
>>animation job he'd gotten on the strength of claiming credit for "Lion
>>King"--before making the (albeit misquoted) sweeping pronouncements that
>>instrumentally CAUSED Eisner to singlehandedly destroy Disney animation.
>>
>>There is no Eisner history without Jeffrey Katzenberg. No cel studio
>>would have been destroyed in 2002 without Shrek or Sinbad.
>>The two execs will be forever linked in historical destiny.
>
>
> You like Katz a *lot* more than I do.
Checked out his recent interviews on "Kung Fu Panda"?
Where a opening flashback scene was reportedly done in 2-D animation
(partly for obvious movie parody, and partly to save time)...
And how does Mr. "Tra-Digital"/"2-D is dead" play it, with the new Frog
Princess/Enchanted revival mania sweeping across the rest of the industry?:
"We saw it as our 'handwritten love letter' to the earlier style...")
(Let's face it: Mr. Hamlet-Excuse will say ANYTHING, if it covers his
rear.)
Derek Janssen (do we have our winner, yet?)
eja...@verizon.net
Oliver
would be a serious contender for the Best Picture Oscar is more than
enough to assure him a place on this list.
Also, whoever was responsible for 'Mega Man'.
Derek Janssen
> Katzenberg's deranged insistance that his pet project 'Pocahontas'
> would be a serious contender for the Best Picture Oscar is more than
> enough to assure him a place on this list.
Actually, the only reason we have the Best Animated Feature Oscar is
because of LA voters' still thinking that that Beauty/Beast stunt was
"neato", and kept pushing annoying campaigns to follow up another
Picture nomination for Aladdin, Toy Story 2 and Lion King...
That Katz would try to get his OWN wave started, however, on a movie
that even LA voters wouldn't support, and then ride it, is purely in
character. 9_9
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Invid Fan
<eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
> Patrick McNamara wrote:
>
> > <TMC...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:f4f41a85-0d86-4fe3...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >>*Peggy Charren - Peggy Charren spearheaded a major movement (via her
> >
> > She may have led it, but it was parents (primarily mothers) who pushed for
> > it. The Comic Book Code also greatly contributed to this idea.
>
> It was her half-formed bill that briefly shackled network animation's
> range of allowable subjects, and stuck us with nothing but
> "Doug"/"Recess" schoolkid clones for most of the entire 90's, before the
> industry eventually learned to ignore her...
>
Well, apart from the 1992 debut of the Bruce Tim Batman cartoon, which
kicked off WB's amazing run of superhero shows.
> >>*Fred Calvert - Fred Calvert is the man who was chosen to finish "The
> >>Thief and the Cobbler" (or "Arabian Knight" as it was theatrically
> >>released as in the United States in 1995) after Richard Williams was
> >>fired from his 20+ year pet project.
> >
> > I had the impression the task was assigned to him. It's hard to say if it
> > even would have been finished if Williams held onto it.
>
> One could argue that Richard "The age of weirdo 70's indies" Williams
> ain't exactly on the A-list either...
>
... and while I'm all for artistic freedom, I have a lot of sympathy
for the people paying for movies when the creator just won't come
through.
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Derek Janssen
> In article <P1ZYj.1295$H91.816@trndny09>, Derek Janssen
> <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Patrick McNamara wrote:
>>
>>
>>><TMC...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:f4f41a85-0d86-4fe3...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>*Peggy Charren - Peggy Charren spearheaded a major movement (via her
>>>
>>>She may have led it, but it was parents (primarily mothers) who pushed for
>>>it. The Comic Book Code also greatly contributed to this idea.
>>
>>It was her half-formed bill that briefly shackled network animation's
>>range of allowable subjects, and stuck us with nothing but
>>"Doug"/"Recess" schoolkid clones for most of the entire 90's, before the
>>industry eventually learned to ignore her...
>>
>
> Well, apart from the 1992 debut of the Bruce Tim Batman cartoon, which
> kicked off WB's amazing run of superhero shows.
Think at the time (mid 90's), WB and Fox were still "syndicated"
channels imagining themselves as networks, and fell through the bill
loophole required of *network* programming.
Which is how WB and Fox helped save Saturday morning. (For a while.)
>>>>*Fred Calvert - Fred Calvert is the man who was chosen to finish "The
>>>>Thief and the Cobbler" (or "Arabian Knight" as it was theatrically
>>>>released as in the United States in 1995) after Richard Williams was
>>>>fired from his 20+ year pet project.
>>>
>>>I had the impression the task was assigned to him. It's hard to say if it
>>>even would have been finished if Williams held onto it.
>>
>>One could argue that Richard "The age of weirdo 70's indies" Williams
>>ain't exactly on the A-list either..
>
> ... and while I'm all for artistic freedom, I have a lot of sympathy
> for the people paying for movies when the creator just won't come
> through.
Miramax was trying to sell Rip Van Williams' weirdo-70's piece in the
"Aladdin" 90's...
I'm against too much studio interference too, but they're not exactly
dim about what doesn't sell.
Derek Janssen (tactfully avoiding all "Raggedy Ann" references, to avoid
harsher criticisms)
eja...@verizon.net
Antonio E. Gonzalez
>
>
>*Jamie Kellner - Wrestling fans hate Jamie Kellner because he ordered
>the cancellation of WCW programming on TBS/TNT. Eric Bischoff and his
>group of investors were on the verge of purchasing WCW from Time
>Warner. But when Kellner had the shows cancelled, this gave Vince
>McMahon the opportunity to purchase his competition and have a virtual
>monopoly on the North American pro wrestling market. Anyway, Jamie
>Kelner was also the WB executive who made sweeping changes, which led
>to the cancellation/retinkering of certain beloved Silver Age WB shows
>(i.e. "Animaniacs", "Freakazoid!", "Road Rovers", "Histeria!", "The
>Legend of Calamity Jane", and "Pinky and the Brain"). Kellner has been
>maligned for allegedly ignoring such shows' popularity among older
>demographics, among whom the programs often got higher ratings than in
>the 2-11 demographic (a la "Pokemon") at which Kids' WB! was primarily
>aimed.
>
Hands down. It's one thing to be a moron trying to dumb down
programming "for the children"; it's another when you *listen* to
those morons, and act on their stupidity! Not much more to say . . .
--
- ReFlex76
- "Let's beat the terrorists with our most powerful weapon . . . hot girl-on-girl action!"
- "The difference between young and old is the difference between looking forward to your next birthday, and dreading it!"
- Jesus Christ - The original hippie!
<http://reflex76.blogspot.com/>
<http://www.blogger.com/profile/07245047157197572936>
Katana > Chain Saw > Baseball Bat > Hammer
Antonio E. Gonzalez
Seriosuly, John K.? The man should get a medal for bringing whimsy
back into animation; he made cartoons "cartoony" again!
This is even more ridiculous considering this is an earlier quote .
. .:
">It was her half-formed bill that briefly shackled network
animation's
>range of allowable subjects, and stuck us with nothing but
>"Doug"/"Recess" schoolkid clones for most of the entire 90's, before the
>industry eventually learned to ignore her..."
Antonio E. Gonzalez
<eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>Anim8rFSK wrote:
>
>>>And who, twelve years later went on to take credit for half of Disney's
>>>hits, and stealing most of the others for another studio--whose
>>>animation job he'd gotten on the strength of claiming credit for "Lion
>>>King"--before making the (albeit misquoted) sweeping pronouncements that
>>>instrumentally CAUSED Eisner to singlehandedly destroy Disney animation.
>>>
>>>There is no Eisner history without Jeffrey Katzenberg. No cel studio
>>>would have been destroyed in 2002 without Shrek or Sinbad.
>>>The two execs will be forever linked in historical destiny.
>>
>>
>> You like Katz a *lot* more than I do.
>
>Checked out his recent interviews on "Kung Fu Panda"?
>
Hmmm, there must be a point to this question . . .
>Where a opening flashback scene was reportedly done in 2-D animation
>(partly for obvious movie parody, and partly to save time)...
>And how does Mr. "Tra-Digital"/"2-D is dead" play it, with the new Frog
>Princess/Enchanted revival mania sweeping across the rest of the industry?:
>"We saw it as our 'handwritten love letter' to the earlier style...")
>
What "love letter"? Disney finally did what Shrek had been doing
for almost a decade, and finally got success (no, Pixar's work doesn't
count; maybe they'll be free again some day) they hadn't had in
literally decades . . .
>(Let's face it: Mr. Hamlet-Excuse will say ANYTHING, if it covers his
>rear.)
>
Oooh, nonsense-speak again! Been such a while; anyone got the
Janssen-to-English dictionary?
Derek Janssen
>>
>>Where a opening flashback scene was reportedly done in 2-D animation
>>(partly for obvious movie parody, and partly to save time)...
>>And how does Mr. "Tra-Digital"/"2-D is dead" play it, with the new Frog
>>Princess/Enchanted revival mania sweeping across the rest of the industry?:
>>"We saw it as our 'handwritten love letter' to the earlier style...")
>
> What "love letter"? Disney finally did what Shrek had been doing
> for almost a decade
And, with Chicken Little, finally did TO Shrek what they'd been doing to
us for half a decade:
If Dreamworks couldn't finish off hyperactive-gag CGI comedy (and not
that "Bee Movie" sure as heck didn't try), leave it to Stainton-era
Disney to shovel the last dirtful..
And sent said Stainton--along with, ahem, certain OTHER ex-Disney
executives--finding new employment for believing in it.
When "Meet the Robinsons" turned all Lasseter-gushy at the end and
decided we'd rather see a Pixar movie instead, THAT was our graveside
jig on three years of "new directions" for Disney--
Cue the Riverdance music, and bring on them frog princesses...
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Antonio E. Gonzalez
. . .
Anyone wanna translate? Seriously, what the hell's he talking
about? Maybe these are terms only ultra-industry-insiders are
suppossed to know? Funny how he cut the part where I point out Pixar
being the only reason Disney's had any success the last few years . .
. well, Studio Ghibli too . . .
As pointed out, they learned their lesson with Enchanted, and are
finally following the "Shrek Route"; I guess sucking on the Dreamworks
tailpipe is one way to learn . . .
Patrick McNamara
"Derek Janssen" <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:vQ0Zj.4144$Zy1.2364@trndny05...
> Arty McToon wrote:
>> A hate list for full animation "purists":
>>
>> William Hanna and Joseph Barbera- limited tv animation pioneers.
>> Repeating backgrounds, only the lips, arms, and legs of the characters
>> move. Produced nothing but copies of "Scooby Doo" in the 1970s.
>
> Among Cartoon Network Gen-X zombies, yes.
> Among actual animation enthusiasts, no:
>
> The historians credit Bill & Joe with, quote, "saving" animation by
> bringing exclusive toons to that new TV medium, after most studios closed
> down their animation divisions in the 50's--
> And giving a lot of the classic guys a reason to keep on working,
> including WB's Warren Foster and Michael Maltese (and their taste for
> old-radio Jack Benny humor), and Dan Gordon of wartime-Popeye fame.
> (Hey, they couldn't *all* go over and work for Walter Lantz, like Tex
> did.)
>
> Oh, and ftr, CN-Boy, Bill&Joe produced Scooby-Doo (hoping to keep the
> "adventure" idea going with their success on Jonny Quest), but most of the
> 70's clones were under Charles Nichols and Iwao Takamoto's watch, after
> studio regimes changed--
> Read some history before you dig out the Jabberjaw jokes, it'll do you
> good.
Some of the best shows HB made have not been re-aired since the 70s. They
produced just about the best animation of the time. These Are The Days could
have held it's own against anything coming out of Japan. Japanese animation
for TV at the time was mainly limited to the few shows from the 60s that
came over. Anime didn't make it big until the 80s when it replaced alot of
the HB shows.
The biggest flaw with the shows was the use of a laugh-track which was
standard for prime time comedy of the time but without HB there would have
been almost no SatAM.
Derek Janssen
>>
>>When "Meet the Robinsons" turned all Lasseter-gushy at the end and
>>decided we'd rather see a Pixar movie instead, THAT was our graveside
>>jig on three years of "new directions" for Disney--
>>Cue the Riverdance music, and bring on them frog princesses...
>
(Anyone wanna move out of Mexico and learn English?
Seriously--Every other Yanqui is getting it, right now.) ;)
> Seriously, what the hell's he talking
> about? Maybe these are terms only ultra-industry-insiders are
> suppossed to know? Funny how he cut the part where I point out Pixar
> being the only reason Disney's had any success the last few years . .
> . well, Studio Ghibli too . . .
>
> As pointed out, they learned their lesson with Enchanted, and are
> finally following the "Shrek Route"; I guess sucking on the Dreamworks
> tailpipe is one way to learn . . .
Actually (and here's where some of the translation comes in),
"Enchanted" was GOING to go "the Shrek Route" under Eisner's watch, as
Eisner's overdefensive kissup to what he thought was going to be the New
Way, a la Katzenberg--Gladly slicing Snow White's own throat as cynical
ram-sacrifice, so long as we Wouldn't Hit.
Than Bob Iger and John Lasseter took over, and they discovered a rather
odd thing: Nobody out there *wanted* to see a "Shrek-style" fairytale
dogpile.
Except, ironically, for the animation geeks, who were trumpeting the
opening twenty minutes as "the Return of Old-Fashioned 2-D Animation".
The operative word was "Awkward": Lots...and LOTS...about two or three
*years*' worth...of studio rewrites turned a lame Shrek 2 clone into a
"harmless" feel-good Pretty Woman clone, and when fans and reviews
gushed over "A wonderful, cuddly feel-good satirical love-letter to
everything Disney did right", the new studio's reaction was your basic
"Uh, yeah....we MEANT to do that! ^_^''' "
But anyway, in answer to your question, um...No. Looks like they
aren't. :)
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Derek Janssen
>
> Some of the best shows HB made have not been re-aired since the 70s. They
> produced just about the best animation of the time. These Are The Days could
> have held it's own against anything coming out of Japan.
Remember when "ABC Afterschool Special" *didn't* mean "teen
drunk-driving", but could mean "Jose' Ferrer voicing an animated Cyrano"?
(And if that makes me a million years old, so be it--At least I keep the
history books.)
...If you don't, let's just say "Charlotte's Web", and move on.
> Japanese animation
> for TV at the time was mainly limited to the few shows from the 60s that
> came over. Anime didn't make it big until the 80s when it replaced alot of
> the HB shows.
As noted earlier, it was the "strip" days of 80's weekday syndication
that helped other studios discover the ease of Japanese outsourcing, for
GI Joe, Transformers, Thundercats, etc.--
While syndicating several years' worth of actual proto-anime, with
Robotech and Star Blazers showed where those overseas-animated shows GOT
their dynamic visual pacing.
Filmation stuck with what they'd been doing stateside since the 70's,
looked dated to the point of downright bizarre by the time of
"Ghostbusters" and "Bravestarr", and never survived the 80's.
As for H-B, they never ventured out of Saturday morning (at least before
Ted the Conqueror), and this was the time they were already blurring the
line with Ruby-Spears for most of the major SatAM franchises.
> The biggest flaw with the shows was the use of a laugh-track which was
> standard for prime time comedy of the time but without HB there would have
> been almost no SatAM.
Back in the 70's, it was the SatAM Triumvirate:
H-B and Scooby-Doo owned ABC, Filmation and live-action Shazam/Isis
owned CBS, and DePatie/Freleng and Pink Panther owned NBC. (And Sid &
Marty Krofft fit themselves in where they could.)
And only one of these studios became cultural survivors... :)
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Ted
Why isn't Walt Disney on this list? People hated him for the strike, and
then there's the whole dominant bland cartoon thing...
when Spumco revived "Ren and Stimpy" on the "Adult
> Party Cartoon" on SpikeTV, those episodes were even more hated by the
> fans than the Games produced episodes.
>
I don't think the episodes overall were more hated than the Games
episodes overall; but people were angrier about Onwards and Upwards (the
first new episode) than they were about any Games episode because it was
far worse than the best Games episodes and was such a disappointment as
our first look at what the new RnS was going to be. Then there was
splitting Firedogs 2 because it wasn't ready, Naked Beach Frenzy not
being quite on time, and then Spike's refusal to show NBF, followed by
an extended period of limbo followed by cancellation. And then there's
some of the sub-contractors on the show not being paid for some of their
work when Spumco ran out of cash and then dissolved.
Patrick McNamara
"Ted" <nospam...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:F4-dnRpjzbFLFqTV...@earthlink.com...
> TMC...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Why isn't Walt Disney on this list? People hated him for the strike, and
> then there's the whole dominant bland cartoon thing...
It's probably too far back for most to remember. And all the crappiest
Disney animation came after he died.
I was thinking that Ralph Bakshi could also be listed, mainly for the way he
abused rotoscoping and left Lord of the Rings without an ending. But for the
most part, he was just incompetant.
Ted
> "Ted" <nospam...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:F4-dnRpjzbFLFqTV...@earthlink.com...
>
>>TMC...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>Why isn't Walt Disney on this list? People hated him for the strike, and
>>then there's the whole dominant bland cartoon thing...
>
>
> It's probably too far back for most to remember. And all the crappiest
> Disney animation came after he died.
The original post brought up Leon Schlesinger for similar reasons, and
in the same time period. And I submit the boringest Disney came about
while Walt was alive...
Juan F. Lara
Ted <nospam...@nospam.com> wrote:
>The original post brought up Leon Schlesinger for similar reasons,
Schlesinger was never a creator. Just a businessman.
> And I submit the boringest Disney came about while Walt was alive...
That's an opinion.
- Juan F. Lara
Derek Janssen
> "Ted" <nospam...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:F4-dnRpjzbFLFqTV...@earthlink.com...
>
>>TMC...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>Why isn't Walt Disney on this list? People hated him for the strike, and
>>then there's the whole dominant bland cartoon thing...
>
> It's probably too far back for most to remember.
And even then, most of the strike-slandering (and "anti-semitism"
rumors) were the product of powerful union interests in Hollywood,
trying to lean pressure--
Walt had too naive an approach to his animators, still thought he was
building the studio from scratch, thought his production team as
"family", and wondered why they were so "ungrateful" as to start talking
about salaries.
> And all the crappiest Disney animation came after he died.
In fact, just *try* saying the name "Ron Miller" among mixed companies
of animation fans...Just try.
(And even then, it wasn't REALLY his fault--Ron's regime just threw up
the studios' hands, huddled in a corner, gave up, and remade every old
Walt unfinished-production memo as a Phil-Haris-bear Jungle Book clone,
because that was the only answer they could come up with for "What Would
Walt Do?"--
That's never stopped anyone from being hated, but he was certainly less
*active* at being hated as some of the more modern entries on the list.)
> I was thinking that Ralph Bakshi could also be listed, mainly for the way he
> abused rotoscoping and left Lord of the Rings without an ending. But for the
> most part, he was just incompetant.
If it wasn't for LOTR being one of the only *non*-black marks on
Bakshi's career, he'd have a reserved place, if only for "Cool World",
the lame "dirty-Disney" act being at least thirty years out of date, and
some of the early misogynist stuff--
As it is, he's just a lost opportunity.
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Derek Janssen
And yet, Dumbo nevertheless went on to be profitable for the studio at
the time.
Derek Janssen (..."Boringest"? 0_o??)
eja...@verizon.net
Ted
> In article <E_GdnbS8R8x1bKTV...@earthlink.com>,
> Ted <nospam...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>The original post brought up Leon Schlesinger for similar reasons,
>
>
> Schlesinger was never a creator. Just a businessman.
Wouldn't that make Disney all the more hateable for betraying his fellow
artists?
>
>
>>And I submit the boringest Disney came about while Walt was alive...
>
>
> That's an opinion.
So is the position that any given activity makes someone hateable. I'm
not saying there weren't great cartoons from Disney while Walt was
ailve; I'm just saying there are many chapters in my Silly Symphony DVDs
that are better off being ignored because if I've put a DVD on I'd
usually rather not fall into a coma (from both the diabetes inducing
sweetness and the incredible lack of anything interesting).
Juan F. Lara
Ted <nospam...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>And I submit the boringest Disney came about while Walt was alive...
>>
>>
>> That's an opinion.
>
>So is the position that any given activity makes someone hateable.
Most of the people listed are universally held in contempt. Michael
Eisner and Peggy Charren have few defenders. OTOH, John K has made many
valuable contributions to the animation industry, and so people objected to
him being listed.
- Juan F. Lara
Derek Janssen
>>
>>So is the position that any given activity makes someone hateable
>
> Eisner and Peggy Charren have few defenders.
> OTOH, John K has made many
> valuable contributions to the animation industry, and so people objected to
> him being listed.
I, OTOH, was the one who claimed John K. as "to the animation industry
what Tim Burton is to directing"--And not in the good way: 9_9
Ie., one who's able to TALK a great game about how much he loves the old
vintage-HB shorts, and hires himself out on DVD commentaries as
self-appointed authority on All Looney Tunes, Especially Bob Clampett,
'Cause They're the Wackiest--
And yet for his own contributions, centrates on Wacky Spastic tributes
to his "influences" that seem to reflect *selectively* chosen
arrested-high-school interests that don't even strike within miles of
why the REAL experts found the vintage material funny--And if it hadn't
been for his own extra-curricular "Animation expert" moonlighting, we'd
have sworn he was just getting a cheap unresearched laff out of old
50's/60's pop-references, just like all the other wannabes...
...With "defenders" of the old-school like John K., we don't need any
Cartoon Networks. -_-
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Ted
A couple of the people on the list are universally held in contempt, but
many are not. I've never heard of Quimby and Schlesinger being held in
universal contempt for example; there's always been some criticism of
them for, you know, looking at the bottom line and taking undue credit,
but my impression has always been that they were thought of as important
insulation against the rest of the studio and that they by and large
were important in letting the artistic side do their thing (making
important contributions to the industry) . I think it's perfectly
reasonable to include Disney for the reasons extremely similar to but
more famous than those that got Quimby and Schlesinger put on the list,
even if you want to ignore the hegemony of fluid boredom Disney imposed
at times. His importance to animation is immaterial as to whether or not
he engendered more hate than others.
Ted
snip
> And yet for his own contributions, centrates on Wacky Spastic tributes
> to his "influences" that seem to reflect *selectively* chosen
> arrested-high-school interests that don't even strike within miles of
> why the REAL experts found the vintage material funny--
To be fair, there's no reason for anyone to accept the opinions of "the
REAL experts" on what makes vintage cartoons funny. It's subjective to
every viewer.
I'd say John K's views on what made audiences love old cartoons is wrong
because it's often based on looking at individual drawings instead of
the cartoon as a moving film, ignoring the way audiences watched the
films. But that just makes his views irrelevant to explaining
popularity; his commentary is still interesting and illuminates specific
points, a good technical commentary, no more incomplete than hearing
commentary from a cinematographer, a makeup artist, or an actor. It's
just not enough to reproduce the things he observes in order to make a
good cartoon; there are self evidently things beyond drawings that make
cartoons good.
Invid Fan
<writer...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I was thinking that Ralph Bakshi could also be listed, mainly for the way he
> abused rotoscoping and left Lord of the Rings without an ending. But for the
> most part, he was just incompetant.
I think much of the problem was he always lowballed the budget when
getting financing, although this problem actually helped 'Wizards'
visually :)
TMC...@gmail.com
The original post from me, wasn't intended to be a "definitive" list.
It's just a list from the most immediate sources and suggestions that
I had received at the time.
Terrence Briggs
On May 22, 10:04 pm, Derek Janssen <ejan...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
> Invid Fan wrote:
> > In article <P1ZYj.1295$H91.816@trndny09>, Derek Janssen
> > <ejan...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>Patrick McNamara wrote:
>
> >>><TMC1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:f4f41a85-0d86-4fe3...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>>>*Peggy Charren - Peggy Charren spearheaded a major movement (via her
>
> >>>She may have led it, but it was parents (primarily mothers) who pushed for
> >>>it. The Comic Book Code also greatly contributed to this idea.
>
> >>It was her half-formed bill that briefly shackled network animation's
> >>range of allowable subjects, and stuck us with nothing but
> >>"Doug"/"Recess" schoolkid clones for most of the entire 90's, before the
> >>industry eventually learned to ignore her...
>
> > Well, apart from the 1992 debut of the Bruce Tim Batman cartoon, which
> > kicked off WB's amazing run of superhero shows.
>
> Think at the time (mid 90's), WB and Fox were still "syndicated"
> channels imagining themselves as networks, and fell through the bill
> loophole required of *network* programming.
> Which is how WB and Fox helped save Saturday morning. (For a while.)
This part of the ideological narrative never ceases to confuse me.
ABC had the highest-rated Sat AM lineup in from 1996 through summer
1998, when it developed in E/I-friendly One Saturday Morning. Pepper
Ann, Recess,a nd New Doug got better ratings than Nick's shows (Wild
Thornberrys and Rugrats, among others), Fox Kids' Godzilla, and other
heary-hitters.
Kids WB shot to the top in 2000 with Pokemon and Batman Beyond, but
continued to garner high (initial) ratings for E/I shows like
Generation O and Detention.
4Kids got high ratings, for a few months in 2003, when Sonic X, TMNT,
and Cramp Twins performed well. The E/I stuff didn't perform so well,
but it tended to air before 830 AM and after noon. Most affiliates
seem to do it this way in the DC and Baltimore TV markets.
So what is all of this bunk about Saturday morning dying on free TV?
We need to stop perpetuating myths about ALL of the high-rated shows
being on cable, because that wasn't always true. In fact, I don't
think it WAS true until 2005, when Cartoon Network and Disney Channel
started outdrawing ABC and KWB's Sat AM lineups.
Can we at least develop a more solid evidence base for these claims?
I feel like I'm repeating myself every 6 months about this.
<snip>
Terrence Briggs, mentioning "JANE & THE DRAGON" for the umpteenth
time, too
Peace to you...
Derek Janssen
> Hoo, boy. And DJ though I was obsessed about Cyberchase...
If you can still stand there in the baldfacedly Powerpuff-plagiarizing
face of "Word Girl", and claim that the relatively benign Cyberchase is
the "worst influence" on PBS animation, you obviously haven't been
watching at the right times...
(Although yes, WG does have some educational content, apart from
teaching viewers that flash-animated Craig McCracken gags will never,
ever, EVER come back in style.)
>>>>>>*Peggy Charren - Peggy Charren spearheaded a major movement (via her
>>
>>>>>She may have led it, but it was parents (primarily mothers) who pushed for
>>>>>it. The Comic Book Code also greatly contributed to this idea.
>>
>>>>It was her half-formed bill that briefly shackled network animation's
>>>>range of allowable subjects, and stuck us with nothing but
>>>>"Doug"/"Recess" schoolkid clones for most of the entire 90's, before the
>>>>industry eventually learned to ignore her...
>>
>>>Well, apart from the 1992 debut of the Bruce Tim Batman cartoon, which
>>>kicked off WB's amazing run of superhero shows.
>>
>>Think at the time (mid 90's), WB and Fox were still "syndicated"
>>channels imagining themselves as networks, and fell through the bill
>>loophole required of *network* programming.
>>Which is how WB and Fox helped save Saturday morning. (For a while.)
>
> This part of the ideological narrative never ceases to confuse me.
>
> ABC had the highest-rated Sat AM lineup in from 1996 through summer
> 1998, when it developed in E/I-friendly One Saturday Morning. Pepper
> Ann, Recess,a nd New Doug got better ratings than Nick's shows (Wild
> Thornberrys and Rugrats, among others), Fox Kids' Godzilla, and other
> heary-hitters.
> So what is all of this bunk about Saturday morning dying on free TV?
It's only been WOUNDED by Discovery Channel, NickJr., Disney Channel,
and Hallmark Cards! -_-
Derek Janssen (who's forever been spoiled by those three glorious
mid-90's years of setting the VCR for X-Men and the Tick on Fox)
eja...@verizon.et
Antonio E. Gonzalez
<eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
>Antonio E. Gonzalez wrote:
>>>
>>>When "Meet the Robinsons" turned all Lasseter-gushy at the end and
>>>decided we'd rather see a Pixar movie instead, THAT was our graveside
>>>jig on three years of "new directions" for Disney--
>>>Cue the Riverdance music, and bring on them frog princesses...
>>
>> Anyone wanna translate?
>
>(Anyone wanna move out of Mexico and learn English?
>Seriously--Every other Yanqui is getting it, right now.) ;)
>
Janssenese is a tough toungue to master, apparently . . .
>> Seriously, what the hell's he talking
>> about? Maybe these are terms only ultra-industry-insiders are
>> suppossed to know? Funny how he cut the part where I point out Pixar
>> being the only reason Disney's had any success the last few years . .
>> . well, Studio Ghibli too . . .
>>
>> As pointed out, they learned their lesson with Enchanted, and are
>> finally following the "Shrek Route"; I guess sucking on the Dreamworks
>> tailpipe is one way to learn . . .
>
>Actually (and here's where some of the translation comes in),
>"Enchanted" was GOING to go "the Shrek Route"
Which it did!
under Eisner's watch, as
>Eisner's overdefensive kissup to what he thought was going to be the New
>Way, a la Katzenberg--Gladly slicing Snow White's own throat as cynical
>ram-sacrifice, so long as we Wouldn't Hit.
>
Nah, she'd just get bitch-splapped at worst . . .
>Than Bob Iger and John Lasseter took over, and they discovered a rather
>odd thing: Nobody out there *wanted* to see a "Shrek-style" fairytale
>dogpile.
Actually, that's what people have wanted since that fist taste in
2001!
>Except, ironically, for the animation geeks, who were trumpeting the
>opening twenty minutes as "the Return of Old-Fashioned 2-D Animation".
>The operative word was "Awkward": Lots...and LOTS...about two or three
>*years*' worth...of studio rewrites turned a lame Shrek 2 clone into a
>"harmless" feel-good Pretty Woman clone,
. . . and still staying away from the outdated "traditional Disney"
form!
and when fans and reviews
>gushed over "A wonderful, cuddly feel-good satirical love-letter to
>everything Disney did right", the new studio's reaction was your basic
>"Uh, yeah....we MEANT to do that! ^_^''' "
>
One way or the other, Shrek-style lives!
>But anyway, in answer to your question, um...No. Looks like they
>aren't. :)
>
Hmmm, since that doesn't answer any of my questions coherently,
let's just say you don't know what you're talking about and leave it
at that!
Bruce Grubb
"Patrick McNamara" <writer...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <TMC...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f4f41a85-0d86-4fe3...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> > *Peggy Charren - Peggy Charren spearheaded a major movement (via her
>
> She may have led it, but it was parents (primarily mothers) who pushed for
> it. The Comic Book Code also greatly contributed to this idea.
I don't see how. By 1968 when Peggy Charren founded Action for Children's
Television (ACT) the Comic Book Code was a shambling joke bordering on
toothless tiger largely thanks to the revival of horror comics started by
independents like Gold Key in the mid 1960's.
In fact the Code was so week that by 1971 Marvel was able to sale a non
code approved book three issues in a row. The fact that the story in quest
was partly in response to a request of the United States Department of
Health, Education, and Welfare just served to totally discredit the old
1954 Code when somebody tried to make an issue of the matter.
The strange thing is the cartoons made after the Children's Television Act
passed for the general broadcast syndicated market are no less violent (and
possibly more so) then those made before ACT was founded.
Also while come people claim that pressure from ACT resulted in the
cancelation of shows like Johnny Quest, Space Ghost, and Herculoids the
facts don't really support such claims. Johnny Quest has stopped
production in 1965 while Space Ghost and Herculoids both lasted two seasons
ending in 1968 and 1969 respectively. Most TV shows rarely lasted past a
season so it is doubt that there was any real pressure.
In fact, repeats of Johnny Quest, Space Ghost, and Herculoids along with
old prime time cartoon fare like the Flinstones, Jetsons, and Rocky and
Bullwinkle and old movie theory fare like WB cartoons filed up a good hunk
of Saturday morning.
Derek Janssen
> In article <g11ftl$srm$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
> "Patrick McNamara" <writer...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>><TMC...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:f4f41a85-0d86-4fe3...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>*Peggy Charren - Peggy Charren spearheaded a major movement (via her
>>
>>She may have led it, but it was parents (primarily mothers) who pushed for
>>it. The Comic Book Code also greatly contributed to this idea.
>
>
> I don't see how. By 1968 when Peggy Charren founded Action for Children's
> Television (ACT) the Comic Book Code was a shambling joke bordering on
> toothless tiger largely thanks to the revival of horror comics started by
> independents like Gold Key in the mid 1960's.
In fact, her actual targets had been the "Toytoon" craze of the 80's (GI
Joe, Transformers, He-Man), as particularly enraged by favorite pet
evil-marketers symbol, "Captain Power & the Soldiers of the Future"--
Which, according to the concept, was designed to be played along with
light-sensitive interactive toys.
(Except that "Power" was, in fact, a live-action show, and had some
reasonably good scripts for its time by an early J. Michael Straczynski--
And by the end of what became its only season, most of its viewers had
long forgotten about the toys, and tried to ignore those annoying strobe
flashes on screen...)
Derek Janssen
eja...@verizon.net
Anim8rFSK
Derek Janssen <eja...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
> Bruce Grubb wrote:
>
> > In article <g11ftl$srm$1...@registered.motzarella.org>,
> > "Patrick McNamara" <writer...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >><TMC...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:f4f41a85-0d86-4fe3...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >>>*Peggy Charren - Peggy Charren spearheaded a major movement (via her
> >>
> >>She may have led it, but it was parents (primarily mothers) who pushed for
> >>it. The Comic Book Code also greatly contributed to this idea.
> >
> >
> > I don't see how. By 1968 when Peggy Charren founded Action for Children's
> > Television (ACT) the Comic Book Code was a shambling joke bordering on
> > toothless tiger largely thanks to the revival of horror comics started by
> > independents like Gold Key in the mid 1960's.
>
> In fact, her actual targets had been the "Toytoon" craze of the 80's (GI
I'm confused; she started a group in 1968 to fight shows of the 80s?
> Joe, Transformers, He-Man), as particularly enraged by favorite pet
> evil-marketers symbol, "Captain Power & the Soldiers of the Future"--
> Which, according to the concept, was designed to be played along with
> light-sensitive interactive toys.
Wow. Her first target was "Romper Room" Has there ever been a greater
evil? (rolls eyes)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_for_Children%27s_Television
>
> (Except that "Power" was, in fact, a live-action show, and had some
> reasonably good scripts for its time by an early J. Michael Straczynski--
> And by the end of what became its only season, most of its viewers had
> long forgotten about the toys, and tried to ignore those annoying strobe
> flashes on screen...)
And starred the real Dr. Elizabeth Weir, with whom Stargate Atlantis SGA
might actually have been a good show.
--
Star Trek 09:
No Shat, No Show.
Chris Sobieniak
> > > "Patrick McNamara" <writerpatr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >><TMC1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:f4f41a85-0d86-4fe3...@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >>>*Peggy Charren - Peggy Charren spearheaded a major movement (via her
>
> > >>She may have led it, but it was parents (primarily mothers) who pushed for
> > >>it. The Comic Book Code also greatly contributed to this idea.
>
> > > I don't see how. By 1968 when Peggy Charren founded Action for Children's
> > > Television (ACT) the Comic Book Code was a shambling joke bordering on
> > > toothless tiger largely thanks to the revival of horror comics started by
> > > independents like Gold Key in the mid 1960's.
>
> > In fact, her actual targets had been the "Toytoon" craze of the 80's (GI
>
> I'm confused; she started a group in 1968 to fight shows of the 80s?
>
> > Joe, Transformers, He-Man), as particularly enraged by favorite pet
> > evil-marketers symbol, "Captain Power & the Soldiers of the Future"--
> > Which, according to the concept, was designed to be played along with
> > light-sensitive interactive toys.
>
> Wow. Her first target was "Romper Room" Has there ever been a greater
> evil? (rolls eyes)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_for_Children%27s_Television
Heh, funny how nothing was sacred then.
Terrence Briggs
On May 28, 8:12 pm, Derek Janssen <ejan...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
> Terrence Briggs wrote:
> > Hoo, boy. And DJ though I was obsessed about Cyberchase...
>
> If you can still stand there in the baldfacedly Powerpuff-plagiarizing
> face of "Word Girl", and claim that the relatively benign Cyberchase is
> the "worst influence" on PBS animation, you obviously haven't been
> watching at the right times...
Uh... did I say that? I don't remember saying "worst influence".
Sure, I said a lot of other nasty things about it...
And no, I still haven't seen any Wordgirl, aside from a 2-minute
snippet that PBS Kids ran inbetween shows one Sunday morning. Man,
these Digital TV program guides suck.
> (Although yes, WG does have some educational content, apart from
> teaching viewers that flash-animated Craig McCracken gags will never,
> ever, EVER come back in style.)
Uh... I thought whip-crackin' McCracken-style gags pretty much WERE
the style these days. I could make a case for George of the Jungle
2008 being sorta based on it. (Which means you hate the show,
regardless of whether or not you've seen it, right? :-) )
> >>>>>>*Peggy Charren - Peggy Charren spearheaded a major movement (via her
>
> >>>>>She may have led it, but it was parents (primarily mothers) who pushed for
> >>>>>it. The Comic Book Code also greatly contributed to this idea.
>
> >>>>It was her half-formed bill that briefly shackled network animation's
> >>>>range of allowable subjects, and stuck us with nothing but
> >>>>"Doug"/"Recess" schoolkid clones for most of the entire 90's, before the
> >>>>industry eventually learned to ignore her...
>
> >>>Well, apart from the 1992 debut of the Bruce Tim Batman cartoon, which
> >>>kicked off WB's amazing run of superhero shows.
>
> >>Think at the time (mid 90's), WB and Fox were still "syndicated"
> >>channels imagining themselves as networks, and fell through the bill
> >>loophole required of *network* programming.
> >>Which is how WB and Fox helped save Saturday morning. (For a while.)
>
> > This part of the ideological narrative never ceases to confuse me.
>
> > ABC had the highest-rated Sat AM lineup in from 1996 through summer
> > 1998, when it developed in E/I-friendly One Saturday Morning. Pepper
> > Ann, Recess,a nd New Doug got better ratings than Nick's shows (Wild
> > Thornberrys and Rugrats, among others), Fox Kids' Godzilla, and other
> > heary-hitters.
> > So what is all of this bunk about Saturday morning dying on free TV?
>
> It's only been WOUNDED by Discovery Channel, NickJr., Disney Channel,
> and Hallmark Cards! -_-
>
> Derek Janssen (who's forever been spoiled by those three glorious
> mid-90's years of setting the VCR for X-Men and the Tick on Fox)
You think YOU were spoiled. My high-school-aged animatophilia
flourished in the era of X-Men and Tick... and ExoSquad and Mighty
Max, etc. But, geez, 1994 wasn't the end of the Saturday Morning
world. Stop sounding like a grouchy old man!
Terrence Briggs, presuming that not everyone liked Xyber 9, Cybersix,
Kim Possible, and Jane & the Dragon.
Peace to you...
Patrick McNamara
"Terrence Briggs" <mrman1...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:76fdbb96-9c3c-4d86...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> > ABC had the highest-rated Sat AM lineup in from 1996 through summer
> > 1998, when it developed in E/I-friendly One Saturday Morning. Pepper
> > Ann, Recess,a nd New Doug got better ratings than Nick's shows (Wild
> > Thornberrys and Rugrats, among others), Fox Kids' Godzilla, and other
> > heary-hitters.
> > So what is all of this bunk about Saturday morning dying on free TV?
>
> It's only been WOUNDED by Discovery Channel, NickJr., Disney Channel,
> and Hallmark Cards! -_-
>
> Derek Janssen (who's forever been spoiled by those three glorious
> mid-90's years of setting the VCR for X-Men and the Tick on Fox)
> ejan...@verizon.et
You think YOU were spoiled. My high-school-aged animatophilia
flourished in the era of X-Men and Tick... and ExoSquad and Mighty
Max, etc. But, geez, 1994 wasn't the end of the Saturday Morning
world. Stop sounding like a grouchy old man!
Saturday morning didn't end, it exploded. I remember when the ONLY cartoons
on TV, aside from the occasional prime-time special and the odd Flintstones
or Jetsons repeats, were on Saturday morning. (And we had to watch those in
black and white!)
Even after Disney destroyed ABC's Saturday morning, NBC gave up it's
Saturday morning to live action and news and CBS dumbed it's Saturday
morning down to pre-school level, there was still very watchable programs on
FOX and later WB. And broadcast TV only really gave up animation after
Cartoon Network and the like came on the scene with 24 hour cartoons.
Terrence Briggs
material...
On Jun 27, 12:56 pm, "Patrick McNamara" <writerpatr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> "Terrence Briggs" <mrman1mrm...@lycos.com> wrote in message
>
> news:76fdbb96-9c3c-4d86...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > ABC had the highest-rated Sat AM lineup in from 1996 through summer
> > > 1998, when it developed in E/I-friendly One Saturday Morning. Pepper
> > > Ann, Recess,a nd New Doug got better ratings than Nick's shows (Wild
> > > Thornberrys and Rugrats, among others), Fox Kids' Godzilla, and other
> > > heary-hitters.
> > > So what is all of this bunk about Saturday morning dying on free TV?
>
> > It's only been WOUNDED by Discovery Channel, NickJr., Disney Channel,
> > and Hallmark Cards! -_-
>
> > Derek Janssen (who's forever been spoiled by those three glorious
> > mid-90's years of setting the VCR for X-Men and the Tick on Fox)
> > ejan...@verizon.et
This is my stuff:
> You think YOU were spoiled. My high-school-aged animatophilia
> flourished in the era of X-Men and Tick... and ExoSquad and Mighty
> Max, etc. But, geez, 1994 wasn't the end of the Saturday Morning
> world. Stop sounding like a grouchy old man!
This is the end of my stuff.
And now, on to Patrick, showing his age :-) :
> Saturday morning didn't end, it exploded. I remember when the ONLY cartoons
> on TV, aside from the occasional prime-time special and the odd Flintstones
> or Jetsons repeats, were on Saturday morning. (And we had to watch those in
> black and white!)
>
> Even after Disney destroyed ABC's Saturday morning, NBC gave up it's
> Saturday morning to live action and news and CBS dumbed it's Saturday
> morning down to pre-school level, there was still very watchable programs on
> FOX and later WB.
Whoa, whoa, I'm confuzzled by the chronology here.
NBC temporarily switched to all live-action way back in 1992, at least
(whenever Prostars and Wishkid ended). In fairness to NBC, the Today
show was one of the most profitable shows on TV at one time, and
probably still is. I don't blame them for giving animation-hating
adults something to watch during Sat AM :-)
CBS "dumbed down" its Sat AM lineup around 1997, assuming you are
referring to the Nelvana switchup, wich gave us Birdz, Anatole
[spelling?], and Mythic Warriors (tee, hee).
ABC went all-Disney in 1997, and earned the #1 Sat AM lineup on TV, as
I constantly state. They were even beating Nickelodeon!
> And broadcast TV only really gave up animation after
> Cartoon Network and the like came on the scene with 24 hour cartoons.
Cartoon Network has been around since, when? 1994? It Sat AM lineup
was no competition until 2006, at least, if the ratings are any
indicator. They were just another mediocre performer until very
recently.
Nickelodeon was never 24-hour animation. Sure, it's Sat AM lineup
became a serious competitor in the mid-1990s, but I don't believe they
were ever #1 until the Spongebob Oddparents era of 2000.
From my reading, the "death" of the broadcast lineups has more to do
with the lack of competitive programming than any government mandate.
ABC flourished with E/I programming from 1997-1999. Kids WB thrived
with less E/I programming from 2000-2004. CBS had the Nickelodeon
connection and NEVER capitqalized on it, save for a small run of
Rugrats episodes and some Chalkzone. Why wouldn't they air Avatar,
Fairoddparents or Spongebob? Heck, CBS could have aired Spongebob and
FO on Friday nights are gotten great ratings. What the heck?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> Patrick McNamara
> E-mail: patjmcnam...@gmail.com
> Webpage:http://www.geocities.com/writerpatrick
> Podcast Ping podcast:http://podcastping.blogspot.com
> Torrentcast:http://www.mininova.org/rss.xml?user=PodcastPing
Terrence Briggs
Peace to you...
Patrick McNamara
And now, on to Patrick, showing his age :-) :
>> Saturday morning didn't end, it exploded. I remember when the ONLY
>> cartoons
>Whoa, whoa, I'm confuzzled by the chronology here.
The change happened over a few years. It's not about who won SatAM slots,
it's about the fact that kids could turn on the TV and watch cartoons and
other children's shows after school weekdays on stations such as CN and
Nickelodeon. In the past SatAM and a little Sunday AM was about the only
place to find anything. There was some stuff on weekday afternoons, but it
was all repeats of shows that were at least a decade old, and they were
repeated endlessly. So the networks had to compete no only with what CN ran
SatAM but what they ran weekday afternoons as well. After watching cartoons
all week, the SatAM slot lost it's significance.
I don't have the stats, but even though the networks might have done well
they likely didn't have the numbers they had in the past before cable came
along. And when it comes to shows that would appeal to viewers eight and up,
FOX and WB have been the only stations to run those on Sat AM. At one time
shows such as Winx would have appear on ABC or TMNT on CBS but not anymore.
ABC, CBS and NBC use to be the only stations with anything on SatAM, back
before FOX even existed. That's when SatAM really started as the time for
children's programming. (Of course the shows weren't necissarily more
watchable then.)
SatAM TV started in the 50s but didn't really get into animation until the
60s (Hanna-Barbara's golden age), mostly in the later part of the decade. It
flourished during the 70s and peaked during the 80s. When people talk about
the "death of SatAM" it's in reference to period starting in the mid-60s to
somewhere in the 90s when ABC, CBS and NBC use to run animation not to meet
some educational criteria but to entertain children. It's about when SatAM
was a special time for children on TV, not just a time when there's more
cartoons than normal. Only children watched TV at that time. It has a
certain type of magic, like the prize in a cereal box. Those born in the 90s
(even many born in the 80s) might be too young to remember what it was like.
Chris Sobieniak
wrote:
> "Terrence Briggs" <mrman1mrm...@lycos.com> wrote in message
At least I do, that sort of magic died once infomercials, news and
other limited appeal stuff started to clog up the airwaves.
Terrence Briggs
wrote:
> "Terrence Briggs" <mrman1mrm...@lycos.com> wrote in message
>
> news:bd8ce262-4f51-4931...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> And now, on to Patrick, showing his age :-) :
>
> >> Saturday morning didn't end, it exploded. I remember when the ONLY
> >> cartoons
> >Whoa, whoa, I'm confuzzled by the chronology here.
>
> The change happened over a few years. It's not about who won SatAM slots,
> it's about the fact that kids could turn on the TV and watch cartoons and
> other children's shows after school weekdays on stations such as CN and
> Nickelodeon.
> In the past SatAM and a little Sunday AM was about the only
> place to find anything.
Heh. Sorry. I guess you meant "exploded" in a good way :-)
I said as much several years ago (maybe 2001).
> There was some stuff on weekday afternoons, but it
> was all repeats of shows that were at least a decade old, and they were
> repeated endlessly. So the networks had to compete no only with what CN ran
> SatAM but what they ran weekday afternoons as well. After watching cartoons
> all week, the SatAM slot lost it's significance.
>
> I don't have the stats, but even though the networks might have done well
> they likely didn't have the numbers they had in the past before cable came
> along.
Well, wasn't it obvious to them that a channel with only four
competitors would have much higher numbers than a channel with four
HUNDRED competitiors, given the same potential audience pool? :-)
> And when it comes to shows that would appeal to viewers eight and up,
> FOX and WB have been the only stations to run those on Sat AM. At one time
> shows such as Winx would have appear on ABC or TMNT on CBS but not anymore.
> ABC, CBS and NBC use to be the only stations with anything on SatAM, back
> before FOX even existed. That's when SatAM really started as the time for
> children's programming. (Of course the shows weren't necissarily more
> watchable then.)
Never forget that. Remember the "good ol' days", if we must, but
NEVER forget the crap :-)
> SatAM TV started in the 50s but didn't really get into animation until the
> 60s (Hanna-Barbara's golden age), mostly in the later part of the decade. It
> flourished during the 70s and peaked during the 80s. When people talk about
> the "death of SatAM" it's in reference to period starting in the mid-60s to
> somewhere in the 90s when ABC, CBS and NBC use to run animation not to meet
> some educational criteria but to entertain children.
And *WHY* did they want the children entertained? :-)
Of course, in my perfect little heart-shaped world, children and
children-at-heart could be educated AND entertained.
> It's about when SatAM
> was a special time for children on TV, not just a time when there's more
> cartoons than normal. Only children watched TV at that time.
I... tend to not believe that.
Of course, I tend to believe that only children could tolerate the
crap that was on at the ime :-)
> It has a
> certain type of magic, like the prize in a cereal box. Those born in the 90s
> (even many born in the 80s) might be too young to remember what it was like.
From my experience, everyone who looks back fondly on Sat AM was too
young to know how awful much of it was :-)
I mean, we're all good at compiling lists of shows we watched back in
the day, and remembering arcs and scenes and parts of stories. I'm
not so sure we're as good at placing our appreciation of those shows
in perspective. Anyone who has ever loved the Simpsons can honestly
say that not every episode has been awesome. Same goes for Sat AM
lineups. Same goes for most EPISODES on said lineups.
Of course, it's even easier now to roll your own Saturday Morning.
Just hit the play button on your VCR or DVD Recorder, and go nuts!
Why let the Big Bad Broadcaster do it for you?
Terrence Briggs, wtching Cartoon Network timeshifts for the same
effect. Not sure it works as well without the Super Sugar Marshmallow
Fruity Cocoa Crunch Puffs, though.
Peace to you...