Tanganyikan Trouble
Steve Bartling
>Situation: Several tanks set up for Tanganyikan Cichlids.
>
>Problem: Lamprologus leleupi thrive, spawn, grow, get colorful, etc.
> However, Lamprologus brichardi (tradional naming in use) and
> Lamprologus sp. daffodil consistently die off approximately
> a week after introduction. I have tried these fish from
> several sources several times. They show a mild interest in
> eating and become meek and die. Julidochromis trascriptus do
> exactly the same thing. BTW, Cyphotilapia frontosa, Tropheus
> duboisi thrive and grow. This happens both alone and mixed with
> other Tanganyikans (e.g. L. leleupi .)
>
>Question: What environmental condition could be so selectively lethal to
> these species of Tanganyikan cichlids?
>
>Additional
>Background: Water changes of approx. 20% carried out weekly, new water is
> well water treated with 0.5 teaspoon baking soda and 1.0 Tablespoon
> Epsom salts added per ten gallons. Limestone crystals for gravel,
> some tanks EPF's only, others EPF and UGF w/powerhead. Tank pH
> around 8.0. New water pre-mixed before being added. What gives?
Hi, I don't have a lot of time right now, so I hope will forgive
the brevity of my reponse. I can give some technical info on
the dissolved elements in Lake Tanganyikan water after I get
home and dig up my notes and if anyone wants it.
I have been keeping Malawian and Tanganyikan cichlids for
about 8 years now. Let me share with you a few observations
I have made about cichlids from these two lakes.
Lake Tanganyika is so large it is almost 'ocean-like'.
The lake is rather salty and contains a varity of dissolved
carbonates that make the water very hard. As a result of the
ocean like quality of the lake, the fish are used to very stable
water conditions. They do not tolerate rapid flunctuations in
water quality, nor do they tolerate high levels of dissolved
metabolites ( nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, .... ). They cannot
tolerate high levels of dissolved carbon dioxide, nor do
they tolerate temperature below about 72 - 75 degrees F.
They prefer temperatures around 78 - 82 F and a pH ranging
from 7.5 - 9.0 ( 8.0 - 8.5 is optimum ).
Contrast this with Malawian cichlids. They are adapted to seasonal
changes in salinity that correspond with the rainy/dry seasons.
The seasonal temperature changes are greater due to the smaller
mass of water in Lake Malawi. Malawi Mbuna ( or rock dwelling )
cichlids are often found in very crowded conditions with heavy
coatings of fish waste on the rocks nearby.
As a result of these environmental differences, I have found
that it is very difficult to keep Tanganyikan cichlids, while
it is almost impossible to kill some Malawian species.
I killed quite a few Tanganyikan cichlids before I learned
to make small ( 5% ) and frequent water changes ( twice a week ).
Any quantity of ammonia is almost guaranteed to wipe out most
of your Tanganyikan fish in one to two weeks. Use zeolite chips
( Ammo-chips ) in addition to activated charcoal to remove
ammonia from your water. I keep the pH buffered at 8.3 using
Sea-Chem's Marine Buffer 8.3. Trickle filters work wonders
on the survival rate for these sensitive fish.
If possible, only buy locally bred Tanganyikan fish. The rational
behind this follows from the inability of Tanganyikan cichlids
to handle rapid changes of water type/conditions/quality.
If the fish were bred in different water conditions, the shock
of the transition to the crowded dealer tanks and then to your
own tank will usually kill them within a week or a week and a half.
Some Tanganyikan species are more sensitive than others. In
general, the larger the fish is when you buy it, the more
tolerant it will be. This is reasonably independant of
species. Also, the species you list above as surviving
corresponds exactly to those species that my friends and
I have had success with. Send me email if you would like
a list of the hardier Tanganyikan cichlids, and a list of
those that I could never keep alive.
Good Luck,
Steve Bartling
bart...@mozart.amd.com
P.S. Unless you are keeping plants, quit using the epson salts.
I use 1 Tablespoon of un-iodized rock salt per 10 gallons of
water for Tanganyikan fish.
aw...@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Dean Hougen
bart...@mozart.amd.com (Steve Bartling) writes:
>In article <4969.2...@vax5.cit.cornell.edu>
> aw...@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:
>>
>>Problem: Lamprologus leleupi thrive, spawn, grow, get colorful, etc.
>> However, Lamprologus brichardi (tradional naming in use) and
>> Lamprologus sp. daffodil consistently die off approximately
>> a week after introduction. I have tried these fish from
>> several sources several times. They show a mild interest in
>> eating and become meek and die. Julidochromis trascriptus do
>> exactly the same thing. BTW, Cyphotilapia frontosa, Tropheus
>> duboisi thrive and grow. This happens both alone and mixed with
>> other Tanganyikans (e.g. L. leleupi .)
>>
>
> Lake Tanganyika is so large it is almost 'ocean-like'.
> The lake is rather salty and contains a varity of dissolved
> carbonates that make the water very hard. As a result of the
> ocean like quality of the lake, the fish are used to very stable
> Contrast this with Malawian cichlids. They are adapted to seasonal
> changes in salinity that correspond with the rainy/dry seasons.
> The seasonal temperature changes are greater due to the smaller
I'd like to echo Steve's comment about the stability of tank conditions
needed for Tanganyikan cichlids - a 20% water change is generally
considered too great, and a week a bit too long to wait. Having said
that, however, I must admit this is a case of "do as I say, not as I
do." I confess to waiting up to two weeks to do H2O changes, changing
up to 25% of the water at a time, and mixing the salts and vitamins
with the water *in* the tank, and even doing all at the same time (and
these are not understocked or overfiltered tanks) - all while brichardi
complex fishes were thriving in my tanks (as were many (all except J.
transcriptus - but I did have different species of Julies in the tanks)
of the other fish you mention). So I don't know that your brichardi
problem can be attributed to this alone.
> As a result of these environmental differences, I have found
> that it is very difficult to keep Tanganyikan cichlids, while
> it is almost impossible to kill some Malawian species.
I can kill Malawians! :)
[BTW, I am no expert on these lakes, but I'd have to say that the
hardiness of Malawians v. Tanganyikans comes from factors other than
just the sizes of the lakes. After all, Malawi is no mud-puddle. The
two main factors that I know of are 1) Malawi it is not as stable due
to the dispersal patterns of rain waters entering the lake, and 2) the
longer isolation of the Tanganyikan species, which has given them more
time to loose the tolerence to fluctuations common to the riverine
ancestors of the fishes of both lakes. Still, Malawians are not as
tollerent as cichlids found in rivers or smaller lakes.]
> Trickle filters work wonders
> on the survival rate for these sensitive fish.
Yes!
> Also, the species you list above as surviving
> corresponds exactly to those species that my friends and
> I have had success with.
Hmmn, this is interesting. While my experience (and to the extent I am
familier with it, the experience of other local cichlidiots) shows most
of the fish you mention as thriving to be "easy" (as far as keeping, not
neccessarily breeding) for Tanganyikans, there are some differences.
I know a lot of people who have had success with brichardi complex
species, and can't think of one who had problems. I had always assumed
they were indestructable (although I have only kept L. brichardi and L.
sp. daffodil). The same goes for the Julies.
On the other hand, Tropheus species (moorii especially, but duboisi also
- which you say are thriving for you - to a great extent) have a
reputation (at least locally) for being much more difficult. (I know
I lost a whole tank full of T. duboisi - and I was being much more
careful with this tank.)
(BTW, while were talking about these fish, I think it is a bad idea to
mix Tropheus species with the others mentioned in these posts. (I'm not
saying that you did so, as I can't tell from your posting, but I think
it is a good point for anybody out there thinking about Tanganyikans.)
The Tropheus need a good amount of green matter in their diet, and too
much red will likely cause intestinal problems. On the other hand, the
other fish will thrive on a diet of mostly reds (and green will likely
cause the orange color form of L. leleupi to appear muddy).)
> Send me email if you would like a list of the hardier Tanganyican
> cichlids, and a list of what I could never keep alive.
[Steve, I would be interested in comparing notes on this subject, if your
mailer is ready to fire off a list.]
Good Luck,
Ditto. Steve might be right that it is an shock of introduction problem.
Tanganyikans should be very gradually acclimated to new water. On the
other hand, sometimes I find that I just loose one species of fish with
no reason that I can ever pin down. A tank can be fine for months, then
bam, all of one species are dead in a matter of days with nothing I can
point to as a cause. Sorry, I can't be more helpful, but don't let it
discourage you - there are one heck of a lot of cichlids in Tanganyika!
> Steve Bartling
Dean Hougen, cichlidiot
--
"And death not ends it." - Jim Morrison
Steve Bartling
>In article <4969.2...@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> aw...@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:
>>Situation: Several tanks set up for Tanganyikan Cichlids.
>>
>>Problem: Lamprologus leleupi thrive, spawn, grow, get colorful, etc.
>> However, Lamprologus brichardi (tradional naming in use) and
>> Lamprologus sp. daffodil consistently die off approximately
>> a week after introduction. I have tried these fish from
>> several sources several times. They show a mild interest in
>> eating and become meek and die. Julidochromis trascriptus do
>> exactly the same thing. BTW, Cyphotilapia frontosa, Tropheus
>> duboisi thrive and grow. This happens both alone and mixed with
>> other Tanganyikans (e.g. L. leleupi .)
>>
>>Question: What environmental condition could be so selectively lethal to
>> these species of Tanganyikan cichlids?
>>
>>Additional
>>Background: Water changes of approx. 20% carried out weekly, new water is
>> well water treated with 0.5 teaspoon baking soda and 1.0 Tablespoon
>> Epsom salts added per ten gallons. Limestone crystals for gravel,
>> some tanks EPF's only, others EPF and UGF w/powerhead. Tank pH
>> around 8.0. New water pre-mixed before being added. What gives?
>
> to make small ( 5% ) and frequent water changes ( twice a week ).
> Any quantity of ammonia is almost guaranteed to wipe out most
> of your Tanganyikan fish in one to two weeks. Use zeolite chips
> ( Ammo-chips ) in addition to activated charcoal to remove
> ammonia from your water. I keep the pH buffered at 8.3 using
> Sea-Chem's Marine Buffer 8.3. Trickle filters work wonders
> on the survival rate for these sensitive fish.
I wanted to make an addendum to my previous response to Tom
Frederick's posting.
In accordance to some federal mandate ( don't ask me which mandate,
law, or regulation ) most municipalities are converting from
the use of chlorine to the use of chloramine in the water supply.
Chloramine is basically a compound of chlorine and ammonia that
is much more stable the chlorine by itself. If chloramine is
present in your tap water, the use of chlorine neutralizers
will remove the chlorine, but will leave the ammonia. I have
measured ammonia at 15 - 20 ppm in my water after I have
neutralized the chlorine. The addition of ammonia to the tank
at the pH levels required my most African Rift Lake Cichlids
is a very toxic proposition. I had bad cases of fin rot,
mysterious fish deaths, massive algae blooms, etc. after
each water change. A single water change of 25% was sufficient
to kill every Tanganyikan cichlid I had in all of my tanks.
The solution : pump the new water into the tank through bag of
zeolite ( or ammo-chips ). Don't believe most products like
amquel that claim to neutralize the ammonia produced by
chloramine decomposition. I did ... more fish died as a result.
Zeolite is an ammonia absorbing rosin for those who might
not be familiar with the product.
If you are uncertain about the use of chloramine in your
water supply, contact the company or agency that supplies
your water.
Oleg Kiselev
>I have
>measured ammonia at 15 - 20 ppm in my water after I have
>... Don't believe most products like
>amquel that claim to neutralize the ammonia produced by
>chloramine decomposition. I did ... more fish died as a result.
Steve, how much AmQuel did you use?
Reading the back of the AmQuell bottle and your posting, you were supposed
to use 20 tsp (100 ml) of AmQuel per gallon to neutralize that much ammonia.
That's about 20 times the "normal" rate (5 ml AmQuell per 1 ppm ammonia, 3.2
ppm chloramins, 2.1 ppm chlorine), a lot on AmQuell...
I have tested the effects of passing tap water through activated carbon,
Sexton has done the same for AmQuela. Both methods seemed to have worked
great for LA tap water. It is possible that your tap water is much more
chloraminated than ours.
Have you tried the chorine/chloramine testing your water?
--
DISCLAIMER: I speak for myself only, unless otherwise indicated.
"No regrets, no apologies" -- R.Reagan
Oleg Kiselev lcc!ol...@seas.ucla.edu, ol...@locus.com
(213)337-5230 ...!{uunet|att|ucla-se|turnkey|alphacm}!lcc!oleg