Nitrates - How to get rid of them?
David J Brooks - KC5WNK
jaye wrote:
> I set up a 29-gal tank a month ago. The tank cycled two weeks ago so
> now the ammonia and nitrite levels are zero, but the nitrate is 80 ppm.
> The tank houses a 7 1/2" oranda goldfish and a 4" pleco. There are
> nitrates? I may just be destined to continue doing 25-30% water
> changes twice a week. If so, I'll do it. I was just hoping I wouldn't
> have to. Thanks.
With 7 orandas you may be so destined. Goldfish are really messy. How high is
the temperature? Goldfish do well in cool water, and will foul a warm tank
more quickly due to the increrased metabolic rate.
--
David J Brooks - KC5WNK
Seabrook, Texas - EL29ln
-.- -.-. ..... .-- -. -.-
jaye
now the ammonia and nitrite levels are zero, but the nitrate is 80 ppm.
The tank houses a 7 1/2" oranda goldfish and a 4" pleco. There are
eat in a 2 min. period. I have continued doing 25-30% water changes
twice a week to try and reduce the nitrate level although I was hoping
that I would be able to reduce the water changes to once a week or even
better once every two weeks since I moved up to the 29-gal from a
10-gal tank. I have a 125 bio-wheel and a 203 fluval canister filter.
I know that anaerobic bacteria and plants can reduce nitrates, but can
anaerobic bacteria live in a freshwater aquarium like under large rocks
or in the canister filter? I have seen products claiming to reduce
nitrates in the tank for sale, but do these really help get rid of
nitrates? I may just be destined to continue doing 25-30% water
changes twice a week. If so, I'll do it. I was just hoping I wouldn't
have to. Thanks.
Jaye
Charlotte, NC
--
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
http://www.talkway.com
Anthony Ford
>
> I set up a 29-gal tank a month ago. The tank cycled two weeks ago so
> now the ammonia and nitrite levels are zero, but the nitrate is 80 ppm.
Hi,
I too have a similar problem that I've just discovered part of the
cause. I have high nitrate levels and was doing water changes once
a week. These seemed to reduce the level slightly.
Just out of interest i tested the tap-water i was pumping into this
tank and found it to be about 40 ppm! It's no wonder it quickly
got to 60 ppm so quickly.
I've just discovered this and am going to test other peoples
water to see if it's just our local neighborhood that has high
nitrate levels, then I'm going to call the water board.
Tony.
--
Youra Turceninoff
Same problem here - I've just started a trial with some of the
bacterial preparations that say they reduce Nitrates (I've got a
tropical tank). My incoming Nitrates are around 50ppm (legal here in
the UK), and my levels usully hover just over 120-140ppm as a
result...
It's been going for a week so far (looking OK up 'till now). As soon
as I get some more results, I'll post them here..
BFN
Youra.
On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:46:48 +0000, Anthony Ford <to...@quadrics.com>
wrote:
Rianto Tjioe
I changed 30% of the water every week. Then I went into the challenge of
growing plants. It wasn't easy, but the result was incredible. Now the
nitrate stays below 5ppm!
And that's just before I'm about to change the water. If you want to try,
visit the Krib website www.thekrib.com , it has a lot of info about growing
aquatic plants.
Anthony Ford
>
> I had 3 orandas (3" each) in my 30g tank. The nitrate level was ~20ppm, and
> I changed 30% of the water every week. Then I went into the challenge of
> growing plants. It wasn't easy, but the result was incredible. Now the
> nitrate stays below 5ppm!
I'm hoping the plant's I've added last week will have similar results,
they certainly seem to be growing fast enough to be eating the nitrates
with a spoon! I put bunches of Elodea Densa in at the back of the tank
and you can almost see this stuff grow :) even under poor lighting.
It's not clear to me though just what proportion of nitrates plants
are able to suck from the water, if it's only trace levels then they
just won't suck up enough. We'll see I guess.
Checks I've made across the city all show high Nitrate levels in tap
water so it's time to get a statement from my water board to see what
they say about it. Maybe it's normal (or at least legal) in the UK.
Tony.
--
Beverly Erlebacher
Anthony Ford <to...@quadrics.com> wrote:
>Rianto Tjioe wrote:
>> I had 3 orandas (3" each) in my 30g tank. The nitrate level was ~20ppm, and
>> I changed 30% of the water every week. Then I went into the challenge of
>> growing plants. It wasn't easy, but the result was incredible. Now the
>> nitrate stays below 5ppm!
>
>I'm hoping the plant's I've added last week will have similar results,
>they certainly seem to be growing fast enough to be eating the nitrates
>with a spoon! I put bunches of Elodea Densa in at the back of the tank
>and you can almost see this stuff grow :) even under poor lighting.
>
>It's not clear to me though just what proportion of nitrates plants
>are able to suck from the water, if it's only trace levels then they
>just won't suck up enough. We'll see I guess.
The important thing is to keep them growing, periodically removing older
material before it gets shaded or starts breaking down. Aquatic plants
are about 80% protein dry weight, so they can pick up a lot of N.
>Checks I've made across the city all show high Nitrate levels in tap
>water so it's time to get a statement from my water board to see what
>they say about it. Maybe it's normal (or at least legal) in the UK.
Another thing you can try is to get some houseplants that will live with
their roots in the water. Pothos, Monstera and other philodendron type
vining plants are ideal because you can lead the vine over to a window.
With exposure to air, their growth isn't CO2 limited and they will really
suck the nutrients out of the tank, while the root mass provides a nice
natural area for small fish to hang out in, and an excellent surface for
all kinds of microcritters that make great fry food.
DJWhitfill
your routine water changes. The system will certainly produce enough nitrates
for the plants, but the plants only utilize a very small portion of the
nitrates present. Even the most exotic nitrate control mechanisms, whether
chemical or mechanical, will still require periodic water changes to keep
nitrates under control in the long run. Wolfgang Ostermoller discusses this in
Chapter Four of the booklet Aquarium Science and Technique (TFH 1973).
Talk to any public aquarium staff-the nitrate nut has not been cracked-water
changes are still necessary. Even in fish culture, where plants have been used
as part of the bio-filter, water changes are still required. Also, the space
necessary for the plants is often just as large or larger than that used by the
fish.
High NO_3 concentrations cause pH to decrease by replacing carbonate and
bicarbonate ions and forming HNO_3 (nitric acid). NO_3 concentrations between
250 and 350 ppm are toxic to invertbrates and will interfere with normal
respiration of fish. Prolonged exposure will result in death. This info was
taken from the 1981 edition of The Aquarist Supply Manual by Daleco. Daleco
also indicated that if regular water changes were done here should be no
problems with nitrates. Daleco recommended water changes of 25% to 50% every
one to three weeks. I do 25% every four weeks in a 55 gallon using both UG and
external filtration.
Here is some info from an article about controlling nitrates in a reef setup
that may be of interest:
I don't have a marine setup, but in the February 1992 issue of FAMA is an
article by Albert J. Thiel titled Dealing with Nitrates (and Phosphates) in the
Marine Aquarium (start p. 83).
The article discusses various methods including 1)the good old fashioned water
change, 2)nitrate removing compounds, and 3)denitrators.
Water changes
The author suggests performing 20% water changes daily for seven days to get
nitrates under control-this would reduce nitrates from 50 ppm to 10 ppm total
NO3. He does suggest that you test your water supply for nitrates. You may have
to increase your current frequency to maintain a constant lower nitrate level.
Nitrate removing compounds
More goodies to add to your filter. The author states that various products on
the market (primarily varieties of zeolite) will lower nitrates efficiently as
long as they are used per the manufacturer's instructions.
Denitrators
Another gizmo to attach to your tank. The author had a poor opinion of the
first generation devices, but states "recent changes in denitrator mechanics
have made me change my opinion." The author says that some trickle filters
incorporate a denitrator as part of the total package.
Perhaps some Reef enthusiasts can add some practical advice. You may want to
get a copy of this article. The author suggests three books he wrote: The
Marine Fish and Invert Reef Aquarium, Small Reef Aquarium Basics, and Advanced
Reef Keeping I. He also suggests a book by Martin Moe Jr: The Marine Aquarium
Reference, and a book by John Tullock: The Reef Owner's Manual.
Partial thread:
==================================
Subject: Re: Nitrates - How to get rid of them?
From: "Ole Larsen" <ole...@get2net.dk>
Date: 1/30/99 1:01 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <08ys2.248$QB1...@news.get2net.dk>
Beverly Erlebacher skrev i meddelelsen
<1999Jan29....@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>...
>In article <36B1665E...@quadrics.com>,
>
>The important thing is to keep them growing, periodically removing older
>material before it gets shaded or starts breaking down. Aquatic plants
>are about 80% protein dry weight, so they can pick up a lot of N.
Correction:
Of fresh plant 95 % is water, 3 % is proteins and 1/6 of the proteins is N
Ole
Beverly Erlebacher
Ole Larsen <ole...@get2net.dk> wrote:
>
>Beverly Erlebacher skrev i meddelelsen
><1999Jan29....@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>...
>>In article <36B1665E...@quadrics.com>,
>>
>>The important thing is to keep them growing, periodically removing older
>>material before it gets shaded or starts breaking down. Aquatic plants
>>are about 80% protein dry weight, so they can pick up a lot of N.
>
>Correction:
>Of fresh plant 95 % is water, 3 % is proteins and 1/6 of the proteins is N
Hi, Ole. "Dry weight" means the material left after all the water is
removed. So if you had 100g of plant, and dried it, you would have 5g
of material left if the plant started out at 95% water. Of this 5g, you
are saying that 3g is protein and I am saying 4g. Since it varies depending
mainly on how much structural material there is in the plant, we are
probably saying about the same thing. I think the 80% figure I used
is for duckweed (Lemna spp) which would be an example of very little
structural material compared to plants like Echinodorus or Microsorum
which would probably be in the 50-60% protein dry weight range, as you say.
Although 1/6 of 3% doesn't sound like much N, when we are talking parts
per million N, fast growing plants like duckweed and Elodea (Anacharis,
Egeria) can make a big contribution to lowering nitrate. For example,
if I can take 100g of duckweed off a 100 liter tank per week, I am removing
4g of protein or .67g of nitrogen as N, which is almost 3g of N as nitrate.
3000mg/100l = 30mg/l or 30ppm. In addition phosphate is removed.
So fast-growing plants can make a significant contribution to nitrate
reduction/control.
Rolf Wagner
as I'm sure you know. Constant partial water changes will eventually bring
it down, provided your bio-load isn't too high, or you aren't overfeeding.
If this were a saltwater tank, I'd recommend going to live rock for your
biofilter since it accomplishes the oxidative metabolism of ammonia to
nitrite . . . then to nitrate, followed by the anaerobic reduction to
molecular nitrogen. Bingo, nitrate problem taken care of biologically.
However this is a very expensive fix to the problem, but the most natural.
Alternatively, I have successfully used the "Nitex-box" with their packing.
This can be used in fresh or salt water. The process proceeds via a
biological reduction of nitrate to molecular nitrogen . . . which then just
escapes from your tank as a gaseous by product. This is the cheapest way to
go. No need to buy expensive coil or multichambered anaerobic filters
which are extremely sensitive to flowrate (can get partial reduction to
nitrite (OUCH!) or overreduction where sulfates are reduced to stinky
sulfides (rotten egg stench!)) and which also need to be fed sugar/starch
solutions through dialysis bags. . . .
If you are interested in the Nitrex option, I found the following info:
Pet Warehouse (www.petwhse.com) 1 (800) 443-1160
You will need 1 Nitrex box for each 30gallons of water in your aquarium.
Nitrex box, Cat No. #211127 $7.98
Nitrex, a biological filter substrate, to be placed in the Nitrex box.
One box of this material is enough to treat 50-75 gallons of water, in
other words you can fill up 2 Nitrex boxes with it. Since it is a
biological substrate
(like the gravel in your undergravel filter) it lasts for a very long time.
Nitrex,
Cat No. #211114 $12.98
Remember, you need both .... the box and the Nitrex.
If you have problems with nitrate, you most certainly have elevated
phosphate levels, also an excellent fertilizer. The only way to remove
these is by water changes and filtration through various "phosphate loving"
chemical "resins" or "sponges." Among the sponges that are safe to use in
your aquarium, I would recommend Polyfilters, available at almost any
aquarium shop. The best way to keep phosphate levels under control is by
regular water changes (with phosphate free water, I recommend you deionize
your water prior to adding it to your tank, or buying distilled water), ie
5% every two weeks, as well as controlled, disciplined feeding of your fish.
Unless you change your water, phosphate levels will rise indefinately.
RW
jaye wrote in message ...
>I set up a 29-gal tank a month ago. The tank cycled two weeks ago so
>now the ammonia and nitrite levels are zero, but the nitrate is 80 ppm.
rev_g...@my-dejanews.com
djwhi...@aol.com (DJWhitfill) wrote:
> If you study the literature, the only effective means of nitrate control is
> your routine water changes. The system will certainly produce enough nitrates
> for the plants, but the plants only utilize a very small portion of the
> nitrates present. Even the most exotic nitrate control mechanisms, whether
> chemical or mechanical, will still require periodic water changes to keep
> nitrates under control in the long run. Wolfgang Ostermoller discusses this in
> Chapter Four of the booklet Aquarium Science and Technique (TFH 1973).
>
>
Obviously your are not studying the literature. Planted aquaria enthusiasts
using the Dupla/PMDD method are finding that their tanks are becoming devoid
of nitrates. This results in lowered plant growth these enthusast are
actually forced to add nitrates to their aquariums. I agree that water
changes are still necessary but to control trace element levels not remove
nitrates.
--Grover
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Scott Doniger
Scott
rev_g...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<7965sf$c5v$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Jim Cheesman
Scott Doniger wrote:
>
> What is the Dupla/PMDD method?
>
Dupla is the full-on, high priced set up - characterised by undergravel
(substrate) heating cables, CO2 injection, laterite, etc. etc. etc.
PMDD are Poor Man's Dupla Drops, a homemade fertiliser. Check out
http://www.thekrib.com for more details, or try subscribing to the
aquatic plants list.
For further details, a trip to
http://www.frii.com/~booth/AquaticConcepts/ would be good, too. (It's
George Booth's site, a man who is (afaik) *the* exponent of the
high-tech approach to aquatic gardening...
JimC
rev_g...@my-dejanews.com
Check out the articles at The Krib (www.thekrib.com) Look under
plants/fertilizer. There is a great article by Tim Mullins that explains
PMDD very well. Also look at the article by Paul L. Sears and Kevin C
Conlin. If you have any other questions feel free to e-mail me.
--Grover
Ole Larsen
Beverly Erlebacher skrev i meddelelsen
>In article <08ys2.248$QB1...@news.get2net.dk>,
>Ole Larsen <ole...@get2net.dk> wrote:
>>
>>Beverly Erlebacher skrev i meddelelsen
>><1999Jan29....@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>...
>>>In article <36B1665E...@quadrics.com>,
>>>
>>>The important thing is to keep them growing, periodically removing older
>>>material before it gets shaded or starts breaking down. Aquatic plants
>>>are about 80% protein dry weight, so they can pick up a lot of N.
>>
>>Correction:
>>Of fresh plant 95 % is water, 3 % is proteins and 1/6 of the proteins is
N
>
>Hi, Ole. "Dry weight" means the material left after all the water is
>removed. So if you had 100g of plant, and dried it, you would have 5g
>of material left if the plant started out at 95% water. Of this 5g, you
>are saying that 3g is protein and I am saying 4g. Since it varies
depending
>mainly on how much structural material there is in the plant, we are
>probably saying about the same thing. I think the 80% figure I used
>is for duckweed (Lemna spp) which would be an example of very little
>structural material compared to plants like Echinodorus or Microsorum
>which would probably be in the 50-60% protein dry weight range, as you say.
Hi Beverly, sorry for the misunderstanding of the term "dry weight" which I
understood as weight without
onhanging water. Should have calculated on your figures.
OK
>Although 1/6 of 3% doesn't sound like much N, when we are talking parts
>per million N, fast growing plants like duckweed and Elodea (Anacharis,
>Egeria) can make a big contribution to lowering nitrate. For example,
>if I can take 100g of duckweed off a 100 liter tank per week, I am removing
>4g of protein or .67g of nitrogen as N, which is almost 3g of N as nitrate.
>3000mg/100l = 30mg/l or 30ppm. In addition phosphate is removed.
If you remove 100 g duckweed , you remove 0.5 g of N.
>So fast-growing plants can make a significant contribution to nitrate
>reduction/control.
It is a contribution, all right, and 100 g of plant is a significant amount
to be able to take out of
a 100 L tank every week. Whether 0.5 g of N is a significant amount I´ll let
others judge.
But try to look at it this way: To be able to harvest 100 g of plant every
week from a 100 L tank, you have to add so much of this and of this
and.......if it isn´t already present in the right percentages and just a
little mistake, like just a little too little or too much of this or that,
might cause a beautifull algae blossom, obviously so common to many
subscribers in theese NG´s.
Maybe it would be safer to try to handle the nitrate problems in other ways,
while being happy for the contribution made by the plants.
Cheers, Ole
Rolf Wagner
is not hopeful, unless these are some extraordinary bacteria. The reason
biological nitrate removal works is that the required anaerobic bacteria
still need an oxygen source to survive, they just don't use dissolved
molecular oxygen in the water. They strip it from NO3- (nitrate), two
nitrates will provide 3 molecules of oxygen (O2) and 1 molecule of gaseous
nitrogen (N2). Normally, aerated water contains enough O2 (molecular
oxygen), which will either be a more ready source of oxygen for the bacteria
than nitrate (bacteria like humans are lazy), but more likely, the
environment is not "anaerobic bacteria friendly," and therefore the culture
will not thrive (multiply). I apologize for the technical explanation, but
the more people understand with what is happening with their water, the more
likely it will be that they will not buy unnecessary products which are more
likely to empty their wallets, than solve their problems.
Ruth Ivimey-Cook
> I bet your plants and algae are healthy! Nitrate is a fantastic fertilizer
> as I'm sure you know. Constant partial water changes will eventually bring
> it down, provided your bio-load isn't too high, or you aren't overfeeding.
I'm not particularly picking on you, but you and others seem to assume
that just doing changes water will necessarily reduce nitrate levels.
I do wish people would remember that for some, including myself, the
water source has high nitrate levels itself... for us, the only way I can
think of is to buy an RO unit and use that for water changes.
Ruth
--
Ruth Ivimey-Cook
Cambridge, UK
James Purchase
>> I bet your plants and algae are healthy! Nitrate is a fantastic
fertilizer
>> as I'm sure you know. Constant partial water changes will eventually
bring
>> it down, provided your bio-load isn't too high, or you aren't
overfeeding.
>
>I'm not particularly picking on you, but you and others seem to assume
>that just doing changes water will necessarily reduce nitrate levels.
>
>I do wish people would remember that for some, including myself, the
>water source has high nitrate levels itself... for us, the only way I can
>think of is to buy an RO unit and use that for water changes.
High nitrates in tap water is a problem many people have - it can really
only be "solved" by pre-treatment of your water supply, but if you can't
afford to do that you do have an alternative, as suggested by the poster you
took exception to.
Plants need Nitrogen in order to live, as a matter of fact, it is one of the
most important things that they do need. It is generally easier for them to
get the Nitrogen in the form of ammonia, but they can and will use Nitrate
as a source, provided all of the other things necessary for growth are
present in the correct amounts and proportions. It is quite common in
heavily planted, healthy plant tanks for the nitrate level of the water to
become almost undetactable - due to the plants using it up.
So, before you toss of the previous poster's advice, check out your tank's
nutrient balance and see if you can allow your plants to solve the problem
for you.
James Purchase
Toronto
Shannon Wheeler
*The opinions expressed herein are my own and are not necessarily
representative of the policies or opinions of my employer.*
Shannon Wheeler
Data & Comm. Tech
Clearwater Welding & Fabricating Ltd
Fort McMurray, AB
Remove the lucky 'Rabbit Foot' from my address to reply.
James Purchase wrote in message <7arshm$l4t$1...@news.interlog.com>...
James Purchase
Shannon Wheeler <swheele...@Foottnc.com> wrote in message
news:91970602...@tmp33.tnc.ab.ca...
>Another way is to use rain water.
True, but the quality of rainwater depends entirely upon where you live.
Many areas, some hundreds of miles from areas with industry, suffer from
acid rain and other air pollution problems. But it is certainly worth
collecting some and testing it for problems before you rule it out.
James