Fresh to salt?
Wesley Michael
I'm new to newsgroups, but I have a question which is puzzling me.. A
friend of mine claims to have switched his 30 gallon freshwater tank into a
saltwater tank, with the freshwater fish remaining. He says it takes about
3 days to switch over, and that all his freshwater fish survived the change
over. Can this really be done? And if it can, where do I go to get more
info, as I wish to switch over to a saltwater aquarium (I too have a 30 gal
tank). Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Maya
There are few fish that can do this. Two of them are the Monodactalus
Argentenus and Sebae (sp) and the Scat. We just did this with a 3 year old
Mono Argentenus about 3 weeks ago. I don't know too much about the Scat's
though, just the Mono Argentenus mostly.
This fish are Estuarian, they are born in Brackish waters and migrate to
saltwater as they get older. They can be kept in Fresh for some time but do
not truly thrive until they are in the saltwater. The 3 year old we had was
not doing well after we moved his 30 gallon tank, then moved he and his
tankmates (cichlids - he was the lone Mono at the time) to the 150 gallon.
We added 3 more Mono A. they thrived while the 3 year old (Amadeus) got
beat up. We caught him, isolated him back to the 30 gallon which was now
the quarantine and decided to bring it over to salt. We did it over a week.
He did very well, its quite stressful on them, but we waited until he was
healthy. We ended up trading him in at a great fish store in Newark
Delaware (where he still was the other day) because he was trying to eat the
anemone, which has since died (the Horseshoe crab got a bit too adventurous
with the airstone, flew across the tank and landed on the anemone 1 too many
times)... I was thinking of getting him back, but he is already about 6
inches and the tank is really too small for him. We will probably begin
converting the 2 year old in a month or two. Its quite fascinating.
Email if you want more info!
Maya
Wesley Michael wrote in article <01bcbef0$5ecf3e80$caaa83d0@default>...
Jeff Sapper
As far as the fish are concerned: There are 4 species of fish that can
switch between fresh and salt. These are actually brackish water fish.
The only one that I can recall are mollies. Anyone out there know the
others for curiousity? As for the tank-just be careful of the metal in
the filter system or the tank itself (if it is an older metal framed
tank).
Jeff
Jeff Sapper
Ross Drewe
Wesley Michael <wmic...@norfolk.infi.net> wrote in article
<01bcbef0$5ecf3e80$caaa83d0@default>...
>
> ..... A
> friend of mine claims to have switched his 30 gallon freshwater tank into
a
> saltwater tank, with the freshwater fish remaining. He says it takes
about
> 3 days to switch over, and that all his freshwater fish survived the
change
To answer your question, consider these two groups of fish:
1. Brackish water fish. Usual habitat is brackish water, ie, shows wide
fluctuations in salinity (eg, estuaries). This group includes:
a) scats
b) archer fish
c) some gobies
d) some eels
& more, but some else will have to give you details.
2. Salt-tolerant freshwater (FW) fish. Usual habitat is freshwater, NOT
brackish, but they can (by some evolutionary quirk) tolerate brackish or
full marine salinity. This group includes:
a) mollies
b) blue-eyes (Australia/NG) - the Pacific Blue-eye is available
in the USA, others may be also.
c) can other readers add more?
The replies you have had so far say that the conversion is possible because
fish of type #1 exist. However, I don't think that this answers your
question. Such fish are usually put in a "brackish water" tank from the
outset. You were asking about converting an existing FW tank, which was
presumably stocked with typical FW fish. In that case, the answer is no,
you cannot convert, unless the fish belonged to the very specialised second
category.
It also depends on the target level of salinity. Nearly all FW fish will
tolerate some salt - in fact, it is used deliberately to ease the osmotic
stress on fish during treatment of illness - but not many will thrive in
estuarine or full marine salinity.
--
Ross Drewe
(remove the first two '.' to make email address valid)
Todd Lofton
Ross Drewe (r.d...@melb.pc.org.au) wrote:
: Wesley Michael <wmic...@norfolk.infi.net> wrote in article
Add guppies to the list. I successfully acclimated three 10g tanks to
full strength saltwater over a 2 week period.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
* Todd Lofton *
* University of Nebraska - Lincoln *
* -> These opinions I express are mine and have absolutely <- *
* -> nothing to do with who I work for, with, or against. <- *
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"So once again politicians will quietly go about the business of
gathering patronage for the few."
-- The Cornhusker, 1934
Chris Hedemark
Wesley Michael wrote in article <01bcbef0$5ecf3e80$caaa83d0@default>...
>I'm new to newsgroups, but I have a question which is puzzling me.. A
>friend of mine claims to have switched his 30 gallon freshwater tank into a
>saltwater tank, with the freshwater fish remaining. He says it takes about
>3 days to switch over, and that all his freshwater fish survived the change
>info, as I wish to switch over to a saltwater aquarium (I too have a 30 gal
>tank). Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Like many things in life, it depends.
Many families of fish will not tolerate the transition from freshwater to
saltwater. Most, if not all, of the tetras for example won't tolerate the
transition.
However, some species handle the move quite well. Especially brackish water
fish that are often sold as freshwater, such as: puffers (spotted, figure
8); mollies, monos, bumblebee gobies, target fish, chromide cichlids (orange
or green), and even red crabs.
When you say "saltwater", what is the specific gravity as measured from your
friend's tank? If it is something like 1.007 or so, that is only brackish
water and most freshwater species will at least tolerate it.
--
Chris Hedemark
http://www.voicenet.com/~warthog
Adrian Stubbs
To answer your question, consider these two groups of fish:
1. Brackish water fish. Usual habitat is brackish water, ie, shows
wide
fluctuations in salinity (eg, estuaries). This group includes:
a) scats
b) archer fish
c) some gobies
d) some eels
& more, but some else will have to give you details.
2. Salt-tolerant freshwater (FW) fish. Usual habitat is freshwater,
NOT
brackish, but they can (by some evolutionary quirk) tolerate
brackish or
full marine salinity. This group includes:
a) mollies
b) blue-eyes (Australia/NG) - the Pacific Blue-eye is
available
in the USA, others may be also.
c) can other readers add more?
How does the Salmon Fit into all this. Is it a freshwater tolerant
saltwater fish or the other way around ?
-Adrian
Quinn C. Horn
Wesley Michael wrote:
>
> I'm new to newsgroups, but I have a question which is puzzling me.. A
> friend of mine claims to have switched his 30 gallon freshwater tank into a
> saltwater tank, with the freshwater fish remaining. He says it takes about
> 3 days to switch over, and that all his freshwater fish survived the change
> over. Can this really be done? And if it can, where do I go to get more
> info, as I wish to switch over to a saltwater aquarium (I too have a 30 gal
> tank). Any info would be greatly appreciated.
As many others have pointed out, some fish can survive in both fresh and
saltwater environments. But I would like to add that if your friend
simply told you to switch to saltwater without asking what types of fish
you have, then I would take is advice with a grain of salt. Switching
to a marine tank takes a lot of thought and planning if you want to be
successful. I didn't say it was difficult, I just said you have to
think. You don't just add a bag of salt to your pre-existing freshwater
tank.
For more info on marine aquariums, check out the FAQ files at:
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~aquaria/
Good luck, and be very careful with your friend's advice.
Best Regards,
Quinn
--
Quinn C. Horn
Graduate Student - Metallurgical Engineering
Michigan Technological University
email: qch...@mtu.edu; fax: (906) 487-2934
RICHARD KENNEY
If you chose to depart from aquarium fish the list can go a long way.
Lampre
Shad
Herring
Striped Bass
just to name a few
Rich
Gerry Parker
Wesley,
I guess it would depend on the type of fish, as some fish seem able to make the
transistion (salmon), but most, I think would not. The reason is at least in part
related to the way the fishes bodies interact with the water environment in which they
live. The problem is characterized by the same as the mechanism by which osmotic
membranes function. In this case the osmotic membrane is the fishes external tissue.
In the one case, you have a dense nutrient fluid (the fish) constrained in a porous
container (skin) surrounded by a less dense fluid (more or less pure water). In this
case, water will be drawn into the fishes body. The fish thus urinates constantly to
prevent drowning in his *own* fluids.
In the other case (a fish in salt water) the salt water will draw the fluids out of
the fishes body, and he dehydrates. My understanding is that saltwater fish must
constantly drink water to replace the fluids lost in this process. The understanding I
have picked up is that at least two things are unique in the saltwater case. 1) The
fish is able to deal with the large quantities of salt ingested (an ability humans
don't posses) 2) The fishes body covering is less transparent to the fluid transport
than a freshwater fish.
Try that as a starting point, I'm sure somebody else can do better than I have- but
there you go.
Gerry Parker
Eric Muehlbauer
As I recall, I have seen mollies in Florida, in tidal drainage ditches
near salt marshes. This wa in water that was nearly full strenght, if not
full strength, sea water. Eric Muehlbauer (eri...@juno.com)
--
news.announce.newusers: 1-3115
news.newusers.questions!
news.answers!
rec.gardens.orchids: 1-16128,16130,16131
rec.aquaria.marine.misc: 1-11900,11902-11915,11920-11936,11938-11948
harry silva
Gerry Parker <gerry....@ntc.nokia.com> wrote:
>Wesley,
>Gerry Parker
Actually, it is unwise to convert a tank this way. The Bacteria will
have a field day as they try to cope with the new water. And most
freshwater fish will die. We have found there are about 250 different
fish kept in the freshwater aquarium. Of thoes only 4 to 6 will live
in full strength marine water. That leaves over 240 that will likely
die in the change over.
If one really chooses go to salt from freshwater and does not want to
buy a second tank then one should trade the fish, gravel and most
equiptment to some one who want's freshwater fish. The best way is to
start from scratch.
I am a firm avocate of keeping marine fish, even by novice keepers but
the saltwater tank should be setup from the start as a marine tank.
You owe it to the fish, the hobby and your self. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO
BE SUCCESS AT KEEPING MARINE FISH IF YOU SIMPLY DUMP SALT IN A
FRESHWATER TANK AND HOPE ATLEAST SOME OF THE FISH SURVIVE -
CAUSE EVEN MOLLIES WILL LIKELY DIE. I have found that mollies and
scats that have spent most of their time in fully fresh water, or even
saltwater have a hard time converting to the other.
just my opinion.... Get a simple fish only marine tank -- about $100
for a 20 gallon. don't kill your freshwater fish.
/harry/ , le Ol Captain...
(all opinions by me are my own unless outherwise noted,
are based on my 30+ years of experence. I welcome reasoned
debate on any fishy topic. I believe there is more then one
way to keep fish... and that we can learn every day.I am
prepaired to justify or explain my position. Yet I acknowledge
that it may not be the only right one... come let's talk about
it)
Steve Hollis
Mollies and other similar fish can be switched successfully to salt water.
I have even heard of sailfins being used to cycle saltwater tanks instead
of damsels
Steve
harry silva
"Steve Hollis" <hol...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
This is true but older mollies do not convert well. You are more
likely to be sucessful converting mollies that are about 2 or 3 months
old then ones that are say 1 or 2 years old.
I have done experements and use mollies far more then
Damsels.. We setup several dozen tanks a month and atleast half are
marine. Frankly using mollies can be done but they are not a hearty
fish. Groupers, hermit crabs or even Scats/Mono's are far better.
Remember - even in a freshwater tank Mollies should not be used to
'cycle' the tank. they are best left until the tank's ecosystem is
well established.
atleast that has been my experence...
John Day
harry silva <sil...@spectra.net> wrote in article
<5viltv$dr9$1...@e3000.supernews.com>...
> "Steve Hollis" <hol...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> This is true but older mollies do not convert well. You are more
> likely to be sucessful converting mollies that are about 2 or 3 months
> old then ones that are say 1 or 2 years old.
Any idea what the life expectancy of a molly is?
John Day
john...@istar.ca
Jeff Sapper
I like your "disclaimer". I have used marble sailfins to establish SW tanks. I
have been using the same pair and any available offspring. These Marbles were at
least 8 months when I first used them in this capacity (this how long I had them).
I did not acclimate them, just threw them in. The first time I did this they had
a broud of 25. I took the babes out after I started adding SW fish and they all
survived. I still have the original pair and they have broken in 4 tanks for me.
Just to relate a story.
Jeff
harry silva wrote:
>
> "Steve Hollis" <hol...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >Mollies and other similar fish can be switched successfully to salt water.
> >I have even heard of sailfins being used to cycle saltwater tanks instead
> >of damsels
>
> This is true but older mollies do not convert well. You are more
> likely to be sucessful converting mollies that are about 2 or 3 months
> old then ones that are say 1 or 2 years old.
>
Ross Drewe
Adrian Stubbs <ast...@baynetworks.com> wrote:
> How does the Salmon Fit into all this. Is it a freshwater tolerant
> saltwater fish or the other way around ?
Salmonids have different salinity needs at different stages in their
lifecycle, so the question is avoided by using special terms. A few of
these are defined below:
stenohaline - intolerant of variations in salinity (most FW species)
euryhaline - tolerant of wide variations in salinity in the short
term (eg, daily fluctuations in estuaries)
smoltification - development of salt tolerance in young of species
which
migrate from fresh to saltwater to mature (eg, salmon)
anadromic - migrate from seawater to freshwater to breed (eg, salmon)
catadromic - migrate from freshwater to seawater (eg, eels: less
common)
diadromic - can migrate both ways (uncommon: 1% of species)
Adjusting from FW -> salt or vice versa entails changes in ionic active
transport mechanisms across the gills, and takes usually a few days.
Even species which tolerate a wide range of salinity require time to
adjust. A few non-ornamental fish can tolerate abrupt changes (eg, red
drum, Sciaenops ocellatus) but even they do better if the change is
slower.
The original question about whether the inhabitants of a freshwater
tank would survive the conversion to marine conditions depends on
whether the fish are euryhaline. A nice addition to the list is the
killifishes. These are often fish of temporary waters, so it's not
surprising that some of them can tolerate high salinity. I have a ref
that says Fundulus sp. is normally freshwater but can live in 128 ppt
(that's nearly 4 times the salinity of seawater!).
--
Ross Drewe
(remove '.user' to make email address valid)
B. Rose
harry silva wrote:
[Snip]
>
> Actually, it is unwise to convert a tank this way. The Bacteria will
> have a field day as they try to cope with the new water. And most
> freshwater fish will die. We have found there are about 250 different
> fish kept in the freshwater aquarium. Of thoes only 4 to 6 will live
> in full strength marine water. That leaves over 240 that will likely
> die in the change over.
>
> If one really chooses go to salt from freshwater and does not want to
> buy a second tank then one should trade the fish, gravel and most
> equiptment to some one who want's freshwater fish. The best way is to
> start from scratch.
>
> I am a firm avocate of keeping marine fish, even by novice keepers but
> the saltwater tank should be setup from the start as a marine tank.
> You owe it to the fish, the hobby and your self. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO
> BE SUCCESS AT KEEPING MARINE FISH IF YOU SIMPLY DUMP SALT IN A
> FRESHWATER TANK AND HOPE ATLEAST SOME OF THE FISH SURVIVE -
> CAUSE EVEN MOLLIES WILL LIKELY DIE. I have found that mollies and
> scats that have spent most of their time in fully fresh water, or even
> saltwater have a hard time converting to the other.
>
> just my opinion.... Get a simple fish only marine tank -- about $100
> for a 20 gallon. don't kill your freshwater fish.
> (all opinions by me are my own unless outherwise noted,
> are based on my 30+ years of experence. I welcome reasoned
> debate on any fishy topic. I believe there is more then one
> way to keep fish... and that we can learn every day.I am
> prepaired to justify or explain my position. Yet I acknowledge
> that it may not be the only right one... come let's talk about
> it)
Hi Harry,
I agree with the basic premise of what you are conveying.
Simply dumping salt in the tank is an exceptionally poor way to
go from freshwater to marine. You are correct that hundreds of
kinds of freshwater fish will die in 1.022+ sp gr saltwater. But
most of the freshwater live bearers can be converted to marine if
done properly.
It's surprising that no one on this thread has ever read
any of the books on this subject written in the '50's. It was
quite the rage back then to convert to marine aquariums.
Obtaining marine fish at inland cities was difficult so there was
a great deal of interest in having a marine tank with an actual
marine fish and a few "Freshwater Converts" to fill out the
aquarium. Mollies, guppies, sword tails, and glass fish were the
most common but many others were successfully converted also.
These fish still make great additions to Micro Reef tanks
were the owner wants an active swimmer that will stay small.
Having established several 5 to 10 gallon "Desk Top" micro reefs
for friends I've found they like having at least one fish swimming
among the Shrooms, polyps, and soft corals. Freshwater converts
fit the bill perfectly since there is no larger tank to switch them
to when they grow. Additionally, they tend to be hardy and less
susceptible to the temperature and water parameter fluctuations
of a small aquarium than their marine counter parts.
just my 2 cents BRose
harry silva
"B. Rose" <bi...@theroses.com> wrote:
>Hi Harry,
> I agree with the basic premise of what you are conveying.
>Simply dumping salt in the tank is an exceptionally poor way to
>go from freshwater to marine. You are correct that hundreds of
>kinds of freshwater fish will die in 1.022+ sp gr saltwater. But
>most of the freshwater live bearers can be converted to marine if
>done properly.
Sure. I still contend that converting 'older' mollies is
problematical but younger ones will convert well with care and time
spent on the process. Guppies will also convert. But usually
swordtails and Platties will not!
> It's surprising that no one on this thread has ever read
>any of the books on this subject written in the '50's. It was
>quite the rage back then to convert to marine aquariums.
True. I recall the problem was that with Metal frames, even stainless
steel was a problem. We helped may people convert tanks over and our
biggest 'problem' was that people were still using metal in may
products - like therometers, heaters (the adjustment screws). Salt
would often cause problems with the reflectors as well.
>Obtaining marine fish at inland cities was difficult so there was
>a great deal of interest in having a marine tank with an actual
>marine fish and a few "Freshwater Converts" to fill out the
>aquarium. Mollies, guppies, sword tails, and glass fish were the
>most common but many others were successfully converted also.
Not 'many' others but then in the 50's there were probably 50 or 60
species (mostly hardy) kept. Remember back then fish were shipped in
barrels and such. I recall bringing fish home in the same containers
we now take chinese food in. Talk about not being able to float the
fish in the Aquarium.
> These fish still make great additions to Micro Reef tanks
>were the owner wants an active swimmer that will stay small.
>Having established several 5 to 10 gallon "Desk Top" micro reefs
>for friends I've found they like having at least one fish swimming
>among the Shrooms, polyps, and soft corals.
We do this professionally and you are right people what to see fish
swimming. But I feel it should be a Marine Fish. A gobby, or a
Blenny or even a damsel or clown fish. After all why spend the
additional money (not excessive folks but there is a silghtly greater
expendature - like the salt and hydrometer at least) just to keep fish
that one can keep in a freshwater tank. (Mollies and Guppies need
little more then an airstone).
> Freshwater converts
>fit the bill perfectly since there is no larger tank to switch them
>to when they grow. Additionally, they tend to be hardy and less
>susceptible to the temperature and water parameter fluctuations
>of a small aquarium than their marine counter parts.
To some extent that is true, but why bother? I'm not spending an
extra $25 to $30 to equipt a marine tank just to put Guppies and
Mollies in it. (Not putting down either - I have kept guppies for
over 30 years , the same strain for atleast 25... and Mollies for
nearly as long.) Guppies and Mollies just don't cut it in a marine
tank.
Beyond cycling I rarely keep either... however Mollies do very well
in full stength marine water, perhaps better then in freshwater. When
I have Seahorses I generally keep mollies with them.; My Brother
often uses Mollies to cycle our Marine AMU's, as did I. They also get
a much nicer 'top fin' (SAILFIN)'s in pure Saltwater. (I've always
found that is why they don't get them when kept in a normal community
tank, ie:the lack of Salt. Sence in the native habitat they have
atleast some Salt in the water. I have a friend that sends me Marsh
Mollies all the time - they do far better in marine water then the
freshwater converted ones.)
> just my 2 cents BRose
/harry/ , le Ol Captain...
E.M. Ennis
: Adrian Stubbs wrote:
[clip]
: >
: >
: > How does the Salmon Fit into all this. Is it a freshwater tolerant
: > saltwater fish or the other way around ?
: >
: > -Adrian
Salmon spawn and are born in FW. The juveniles spend a portion of their
time in FW and then migrate down-river to the ocean. This is a timed
migration based on their changing physiology. They change to become
marine fish and live their adult life in the ocean. In the Western US,
dam(n)ing of rivers is a problem because the lakes formed (as well as the
physical structure of the dam(n), fish ladder or not) slow the trip to the
sea; there is a risk that the change from FW->Marine will occur while the
animal is still in the FW river system. This is just a brief description
(without references in hand), so some points may be a little 'wonky', but
you get the picture.
-Erin...
--
=========================
Mr. Erin M. Ennis |
**see below to reply** |
eennis(at)zoo,uvm,edu |
Water Resources Major, |
Uni. of Vermont |
=========================
B. Rose
>
> Sure. I still contend that converting 'older' mollies is
> problematical but younger ones will convert well with care and time
> spent on the process. Guppies will also convert. But usually
> swordtails and Platties will not!
As stated, it needs to be done properly. In the case of
mollies this means starting with juveniles, etc. as you say. As
to swordtails the few I've used lived for years in full strength
saltwater, that's all I know. As to platties I've never tried them.
> > These fish still make great additions to Micro Reef tanks
> >were the owner wants an active swimmer that will stay small.
> >Having established several 5 to 10 gallon "Desk Top" micro reefs
> >for friends I've found they like having at least one fish swimming
> >among the Shrooms, polyps, and soft corals.
>
> We do this professionally and you are right people what to see fish
> swimming. But I feel it should be a Marine Fish. A gobby, or a
> Blenny or even a damsel or clown fish. After all why spend the
> additional money (not excessive folks but there is a sightly greater
> expenditure - like the salt and hydrometer at least) just to keep fish
> that one can keep in a freshwater tank. (Mollies and Guppies need
> little more then an airstone).
I don't do this professionally (just as a favor) and I've only
done a dozen or so of these so I will defer to your experience. Maybe
I should have said "Pico Reef" but I thought the 5 to 10 gallon "Desk
Top" explained what I was talking about. You apparently missed the
words reef, Shrooms, polyps and soft corals since these do require
saltwater so the additional expense isn't "just to keep fish that one
can keep in a freshwater tank."
The people I've made these tanks for aren't interested in
becoming marine/reef aquarium keepers. If they were I'd set them up
with a 55 gal. main tank and a 15/20 gallon quarantine/hospital tank.
Generally they are executives who have jumped on the "Salt Water
Aquarium" kick and do not have or intend to own any other tanks.
Most do not maintain their tanks properly and usually loose
interest after a few years. Until recently there haven't been many Reef
Aquarium maintenance companies who would come in and take care
of this type tank. In larger cities that have people providing this
service I always recommend these executives hire a service. After all,
most make well in excess of 6 figures and could care less about a $600
or $700 initial fee with a $75 - $100 per month maintenance fee. They
just want a reef tank that looks nice. Some smaller cities here in the
Rocky Mountains still do not have services of this type so there's a
problem. One way or another these executives are going to buy a reef
tank without the proper knowledge to keep them.
When I was 1st asked to provide a tank like this several years
ago I told the person to go to a LFS. What I found happened then was
the LFS sells them a 10 gallon aquarium with U/G filter and live stock.
Either out of ignorance or desire for continued sales these tanks
typically killed the fish and animals in short order and the executives
just go buy more animals and fish from the LFS. A few months life
span is unacceptable IMO. The LFS didn't seem to care that they
were condemning these poor fish & animals to a slow death. One
LFS actually sold a friend a very small carnation coral for his 5 gallon
tank with an U/G filter, standard single bulb hood w/FW bulb, and no
additional circulation. As posts to this news group indicate,
exploitation of this type is exactly what fuels the "Anti-Reef Keeping"
groups and provides ammunition for further bans and restrictive
regulations. With this in mind I decided to start providing properly
set-up custom "Beginners" aquariums (which is what they want
anyway) along with the knowledge and instruction on how to keep
the animals and fish alive. As indicated, I will always send people to
a commercial service when possible, but when not available I sleep
better providing an aquarium that at least has a chance of survival.
In fairness to the LFS, most small mountain town pet stores have
little or no experience with marine aquariums.
I agree marine fish are preferable but there are a couple things
to consider *In This Particular Application* as indicated above.
First, these people want a small "Reef Tank". With polyps,
mushroom anemones, and soft corals that means saltwater which is
the answer to 'why spend the additional money'. If they want a fish
only tank I'd steering them toward freshwater or a larger tank for
marines. I personally don't believe in keeping any marine fish in a
tank smaller than 29/30 gallons for it's entire life. I had the
experience
of being 'kept' in a *Very* small room as a POW and do not wish to
inflict this type confinement on the fish. IMHO, even a 30 gallon tank
is too small but I understand many people would disagree with that.
Personally, I feel that opinion would change if they tried living in a
5' by 6' room for several years. <G>
Second, Mollies or a male fan tail guppy tend to be more active
swimmers than most gobies or blennies. The first tank like this I put
together had a goby. The question I got after a few weeks was, "Why
doesn't it swim around much?". This isn't to say that there aren't some
gobies or blennies that are active swimmers. There are, but there is
still a matter of size.
Third, there is the problem of scale and life span. A fully grown
clown fish in a 5 or 10 gallon tank is just too big to look appropriate
even if you keep it alive. The marine mollies and guppies I've kept
tend to live 3 to 5 years and stay small. (I assume this is a normal
life
span but actually don't know.) In 3 to 5 years most of these executives
either tire of the aquarium (and maintenance) or become interested
enough to learn more and move on to larger more appropriate aquariums.
Most marine fish I've kept live considerably longer than their
freshwater
counter parts. Usually these particular people don't realize they are
making a 10+ year commitment when they buy a clown fish. This is just
my experience. Yours maybe different.
> > Freshwater converts fit the bill perfectly since there is no larger
> > tank to switch them to when they grow. Additionally, they tend
> > to be hardy and less susceptible to the temperature and water
> > parameter fluctuations of a small aquarium than their marine
> > counter parts.
>
> To some extent that is true, but why bother?
See above. Also as stated, I've personally found that
converted mollies and guppies are hardier and handle the inevitable
temperature and water parameter fluctuations of a poorly maintained
micro reef better than their marine counterparts. Under these
conditions, my experience has been that over a period of a couple
years, converted marine mollies and guppies have fewer problems,
less disease, and appear to live a normal life span better than marine
fish in the same tank.
> I'm not spending an extra $25 to $30 to equipt a marine tank
> just to put Guppies and Mollies in it.
I gather this statement refers to FW aquariums versus Reef
aquariums since my initial statement was about micro reefs and I'm
reading and responding to this in the ..../marine.reefs News Group.
My original post clearly stated the aquarium had marine animals so
the added expense is not, "just to put Guppies and Mollies in it."
When I custom build a micro marine reef of the type being discussed
here it costs considerable more then $25 to $30 compared to an
equivalent 5 or 10 gallon freshwater aquarium. After building the
tank there's Live Rock & Sand, skimmer, proper PC lighting, polyps,
mushroom anemones, a shrimp, snails, power head and mini pump,
RO/DI Unit, hydrometer, etc. This typically runs several hundred
dollars.
Agreed you can take a typical 10 gallon freshwater, U/G
aquarium setup and use it with salt water for some marine animals
and fish but in my experience this is far from an idea situation to
provide long term success. Especially in a reef tank. This is the
type of aquarium I'm trying to avoid.
> Guppies and Mollies just don't cut it in a marine tank.
I can understand that for you they don't. I generally
don't keep them either but I also understand there is an appropriate
application. The original thread started with a request for
information about converting a freshwater tank to saltwater.
We can express our opinion that this isn't a good way to go, but
it may not necessarily prevent this person from attempting it.
Also, I believe my response was attached to a divergence of the
thread that was discussing which freshwater fish could be converted
to saltwater. I was stating that in 30+ years of maintaining marine
aquariums I've seen or personally kept over a dozen fish that are
normally considered freshwater aquarium fish in marine aquariums.
The following quotation is from "Saltwater Fishes as Pets.
A guide to the selection and care of marine fishes." by Herbert R.
Axlerod :
"It will surprise many readers (especially freshwater
aquarists) that the popular Therapon jarbua is a salt water fish. So
accustomed are they to buying the fish as a freshwater animal, they
hardly ever consider that it might be a marine variety. The same is
true of Monodactylus species and the fishes of the genus Scatophagus!
Even the familiar Glass Fish, of the Chanda (also called Ambassis)
genius can be safely maintained in the marine aquarium.
Sticklebacks and Mollies (fishes of the genus Mollienesia) can
also be kept in the marine aquarium as they are always accustom to
living in brackish water. Guppies too can be kept in the marine
aquarium."
Assuming the normal person reading the ../marine.reefs news
group is interested in learning or already knows how to maintain a reef
or marine aquarium there's a chance they will be asked to help someone
similar to the people I've run into. Since I've had good success
through
the years with the use of converted freshwater to marine fish as
indicated
above, I was giving my opinion. Hopefully some may remember this
thread down the road and at least know that there is a viable
alternative
to condemning a hapless marine fish to a shortened life in a poorly
maintained 5 or 10 gallon reef tank.
> Beyond cycling I rarely keep either... however Mollies do very well
> in full strength marine water, perhaps better then in freshwater.
I agree and as stated I always try to talk people out of a micro
reef as a first aquarium, especially when the person has no interest in
learning how to properly maintain and care for the animals and fish.
If that fails and I'm convinced the person is going to purchase a tank,
animals, and fish anyway, I offer to set the aquarium up for them. This
allows me to chose proper animals, lighting, etc. At least then I know
the aquarium has a chance of survival. As an alternative to a marine
fish in a 5 or 10 gallon micro reef aquarium for a beginner with no
other tanks, I have and will continue to first choose a molly and a male
fan tail guppy or glass fish as a second choice.
BRose
Adrian Stubbs
Does the physiology change to one that can cope with Freshwater as the Salmon
comes to spawn ? Or if not, is that the reason the Adults die ?
-Adrian
E.M. Ennis wrote:
> : Adrian Stubbs wrote:
>
> : > How does the Salmon Fit into all this. Is it a freshwater tolerant
> : > saltwater fish or the other way around ?
> : >
> : > -Adrian
>
> Salmon spawn and are born in FW. The juveniles spend a portion of their
> time in FW and then migrate down-river to the ocean. This is a timed
> migration based on their changing physiology. They change to become
> marine fish and live their adult life in the ocean. In the Western US,
> dam(n)ing of rivers is a problem because the lakes formed (as well as the
> physical structure of the dam(n), fish ladder or not) slow the trip to the
> sea; there is a risk that the change from FW->Marine will occur while the
> animal is still in the FW river system. This is just a brief description
> (without references in hand), so some points may be a little 'wonky', but
> you get the picture.
> -Erin..
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Timothy Chu
Adrian Stubbs <ast...@baynetworks.com> wrote in article
<34284C6F...@baynetworks.com>...
> Does the physiology change to one that can cope with Freshwater as the
Salmon
> comes to spawn ? Or if not, is that the reason the Adults die ?
Most likely. As with most animals (I'm thinking of humans at the minute),
Their physiology changes very much in the first fraction of their lives,
and a change in salinity is something that they can cope with. Once an
adult...well, you've heard the saying about teaching an old dog new tricks.
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Or, you could just do what most do and *snip* the replied article.
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