New to the newsgroup :)
Andy Semenihin
I am new, I am new :)
I was just wondering how much money one would estimate to spend on a setup
of a 20 or maybe 29 gallon marine tank, possibly reef.
I have a 20 gallon freshwater right now.
I would like to start buy a new tank, 20 or 29 long and give marine life a
shot :)
I heard scary stories about lighting, why does it cost so much for a piece
of plastic with special holes for fluo tubes?
Jim Mims
I'm saving money by building my own stand and canopy.
I will be buying a DIY lighting kit and assembling it myself too. Haven't
decided yet between VHO, PC's or MH, though.
If you're into DIY you can save a considerable amount of money and there are
quite a few websites in this "community" that are most generous in their
content.
A good place to start is http://saltaquarium.about.com/mbody.htm
- Jim
"Andy Semenihin" <and...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:335Z7.35392$AS4.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Andy Semenihin
I must be living in a dream world, I spent 400$ on EVERYTHING for my 20
gallon freshwater including fish, plants, everything...
you are saying I am going to need a thousand just to get started with
marine?
I must be wrong but why would marine be alive today if it was 2.5 times more
expensive plus all the hassle with maintaining it...
The way I see it, only rich people (lawyers, buisiness men) can afford a
marine tank, is that true?
I am sorry if I seem a bit harsh, I am stunned...
Jim Mims wrote in message ...
Jimmy Chen
> gallon freshwater including fish, plants, everything...
I would highly suggest that if you want to keep a marine tank, especially a
reef tank, forget 99% of what you know about FW. It will only be better for
you and start you off on the right foot.
Yes, it will be very expensive to keep a reef tank. A good lighting system
can cost $400~$750, so there goes your $400 FW budget. And we havent even
began yet.
Search the web, there are plenty of web sites describing what their set up
are. Use those as a starting point and you can then price out the cost from
there.
--
jc
Reefkeepers ML (http://www.reefkeepers.org)
Archived @ http://www.escribe.com/pets/reefkeepers/
Help Finding The Cure For Cancer
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0A9EEF2A8
Andy Semenihin
Jimmy Chen wrote in message ...
>> I must be living in a dream world, I spent 400$ on EVERYTHING for my 20
>> gallon freshwater including fish, plants, everything...
>
>I would highly suggest that if you want to keep a marine tank, especially a
>reef tank, forget 99% of what you know about FW. It will only be better for
>you and start you off on the right foot.
>
>Yes, it will be very expensive to keep a reef tank. A good lighting system
>can cost $400~$750, so there goes your $400 FW budget. And we havent even
>began yet.
>
I am sorry for being so annoying but what costs 750 dollars in a couple of
light bulbs and some wires that connect it to the closest outlet?
I am one of the simpler guys who believe in simplicity and cheap prices.
I designed a simple system that cost me 5 dollars,
a switch, an incandescent light bulb, outlet and some wires.
That can be used for a freshwater aquarium right now but with a couple of
problems,
Okay, let's add some plastic, +50$, add some nice wires +10$, add a glass
cover +20$
This is very basic, add some other stuff I don't know about +10$
Total Price: 50+10+20+10 = 90$
That's my understanding, I did not study marine lighting systems but I know
how basic things work and that's what I base my opinion on...
What costs 500$ ?
Thanks :)
Alex & Tams
Andy Semenihin wrote:
> A thousand $ for a 20 gallon?
> I must be living in a dream world, I spent 400$ on EVERYTHING for my 20
> gallon freshwater including fish, plants, everything...
>
> you are saying I am going to need a thousand just to get started with
> marine?
>
No, but it would be very easy to spend that much if you so desired. Depends on
how/what you wanna do w/ the tank, of course. Fish-only tends to be *much*
cheaper as lights and such are much less costly -v- doing *intense* lighting
over a 'reef'. Doing reef-things as a DIY *will* save you hundreds, if not
thousands, but quite often the quality is not as good as that from a pro.
Lighting/canopy is one area where you can cut costs by doing a little 'home'
work. To do a LR/DSB setup, you'll dump a fair bit of $$$ just on the sand and
LR, probably several hundred dollars just to get started on that particular
aspect. Don't forget the up-front cost of test kits/salt/etc...It adds up
quicker than you think (to do it right).
>
> I must be wrong but why would marine be alive today if it was 2.5 times more
> expensive plus all the hassle with maintaining it...
Its alive 'cause there is nothing that can compare to the colors/activity of a
healthy reef tank. Heck, even my Green Cheek Conure (small parrot) loves
looking at all the goings on. I watch tank *much* more than TV, for darn sure!
>
> The way I see it, only rich people (lawyers, buisiness men) can afford a
> marine tank, is that true?
>
Sometimes it would seem so :) I am working a second job to help pay for an
'upgrade' to my 55g w/ sump. It is definitely worth it to me. I have probably
over $900 of stuff just sitting here not being used waiting til I get the rest
of the stuff. Patience :) I know I have spent over $3000 on my 55g (so far).
No regrets. None. I have learned to buy quality first and not cut corners as I
have had to go buy quality after the fact on at least a few occasions. Just
don't buy a SeaClone skimmer ;)
>
> I am sorry if I seem a bit harsh, I am stunned...
You aren't the first, LOL. Basically, ask yourself 'Is it worth it to me?'...
Alex in Oklahoma
Joe Halada
This comes from a complete newbie, so take it with a grain of salt (not the
regular you buy in a grocery store for less than a dollar, you need special
salt with right mix of ingredients, which costs more <g>)
It depends on what you want to keep in your aquarium. All fish aquarium
does not need extremely expensive lightning. But if you want to keep
corals, you need a lot of light. Incandescent lights are completely out for
this kind of application, because for the amount of light you need, you
would generate so much heat that your water would boil.
Fluorescent lights generate about 5 times or more light per watt of power,
so they are more efficient for higher light output. But that's just
beginning. You need to pack the light sources densely. So you may need HO
(High Output), VHO (Very High Output) or PC (Power Compact) fluorescent
lights. These light sources pack more light output into the same physical
size of the bulb than regular fluorescent bulb.
You may need to go further, with MH type lights. (I am trying come up with
a way to avoid them for the set up I am planning). These are like a small
sun sitting above your tank. The light is so strong you can't even look
into the light directly, they also generate a lot of heat. But some corals,
and deep tanks need this much light.
Joe Halada
"Andy Semenihin" <and...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:OZ5Z7.35441$AS4.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
jupiter
because you made mention of it). If you are speaking of fish-only, the
difference in cost is only in the addition of salt to the water. Of course,
you would be best to use at least fluorescent lighting to make the
transition worth your time. It is also in your best interest to buy a
protein skimmer which could cost you $300+ (CDN).
For some reference, however, my very first 10 gallon non-reef cost me a
total of $600 CDN. If I were to remake one (with the info I have today) this
cost would be considerably reduced but as a new marine aquarist, you can
count on very high costs.
Your best bet is to listen to Jimmy and forget everything you know about
freshwater. The input of money is completely different.
And no matter how cheap people tell you they can get things, in your area
those things always seems to be much more expensive.
"Andy Semenihin" <and...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:OZ5Z7.35441$AS4.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Jimmy Chen
> light bulbs and some wires that connect it to the closest outlet?
Here is a good on line MO with nice prices, not the cheapest, but generally
close to the low end ...
Feel free to price the items out ...
http://www.marinedepot.com/a_lt_mh_ht.asp?CartId=
> I am one of the simpler guys who believe in simplicity and cheap prices.
> I designed a simple system that cost me 5 dollars,
> a switch, an incandescent light bulb, outlet and some wires.
> That can be used for a freshwater aquarium right now but with a couple of
> problems,
> Okay, let's add some plastic, +50$, add some nice wires +10$, add a glass
> cover +20$
Ahh, but that is FW ... Didnt I suggest you forget 99% of what you know of
FW, and learn about sw/reefs from start? Now, being that this is a REEF NG,
logical assumption is you want to keep a reef, not fish only. With that
assumption, then in order to keep corals alive, they demand strong light. So
your normal hardware store $3 per tube 4ft 40w NO lights will not do the
job. The min you will need is lights 3x more powerful, which is 110w, and
you will need at least 4 of those. Then these corals needs special color
temp which isnt not available also in the general hardware store. So, in
general, we are talking around $25 per light. So, just for the tubes alone,
we are talking $100. PC will only be more expensive. If you want light
demanding corals, then you must add MH as they are the only ones intensive
enough. A cheap 175w one of those suitable for corals is around $60, an
expensive 400w one is around $150. You will need one of those for every 2
ft. So a 20 gal may get away with just one.
Now lets go on the the lighting fixture ... Since we are talking about
buring 440w VHO, or min 175w MH, these lights gives off a trendious amount
of heat. Any cheap plastic will melt like butter. So the cheapest way around
it is DIY with quality wood that wont get fry as well. But generally,
fixtures sold in the hobby are made out of thick aluminum. Why aluminum and
not just use cheap sheet metal you ask ... Well, you are dealing with salt
water, which is VERY corrosive. So the last thing you want is to have any
part of your light fixture rust out due to saltwater vapor and falls into
your tank of water.
But wait !! This isnt the end - there is more and I can go on. But as I
suggested, I think it is best for you search the web and see how others have
done their system. That way you will get a wider picture of how other people
did their system instead of just hearing it from me. Plus it will also give
you ideas that I may not include ... Enjoy ...
Jimmy Chen
with
> a way to avoid them for the set up I am planning).
Joe, dont cut yourself short on this one ... If the type of corals you wish
to are light demanding, go with MH no matter what size tank you have. If you
are concern about VHO/MH being too expensive, you can always go with those
10KK MH bulbs which do not require VHO supplements.
Tom Coon
be easier for you to understand the costs associated with a Reef tank. As
you know, lighting is very expensive for a reef tank. Not only does it have
to be bright enough but it also must be of the proper spectrum in order for
the corals to do well. This is not an easy (read cheap) task to accomplish.
Do not be discouraged with this. Many, if not most people start out with
soft corals and the lower lighting requiredments of them. It is possible to
have a 20 gallon (24" 96 or 110 watt) reef lighting system that costs under
200 dollars.
There are some great articles here for new marine aquarists. (and old
marine aquarists) :-) Scan down the page and you will find some articles on
lighting.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marindind2.htm
I'm starting to sound like I work for Wet Web Media lately. :-)
Good luck.
--
Tom
http://trmrcoon.mybravenet.com
"Andy Semenihin" <and...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:335Z7.35392$AS4.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Jimmy Chen
> quicker than you think (to do it right).
And the sad part is, if you do it wrong, it will end up costing you more in
the long wrong. Because you will have to purchase the correct equipment to
correct what is wrong, plus chances are quite a few expensive livestock
already have die by the time you figure out something is not right.
Oh, btw, SW livestock arent cheap either, fish or corals ... You are jumping
into the major league now ... $20 for one livestock is CHEAP, $50~75 isnt
uncommon, and $150+ arent unheard of.
Andy Semenihin
for at least 7 years :)
I find freshwater half as interesting and money is pretty tight around here,
considering I am only 15 with no job and I am not going to work in McDonalds
to support a 20 gallon...
I thought Marine was freshwater with higher prices on fish and adding salt
to water during water changes :)
Now that I opened my eyes a bit i is obvious I'll not be able to have a
marine tank, I am happy with my 20 gallon freshwater finding it almost as
interesting as a computer (I web design a lot, hoping to become a graphic
designer).
I think it's absolutely insane to charge 600$ for a METAL case coated with
anti-salt or whatever which probably costs 30$ to the factory.
No offense but don't tell me it costs money to create stainless steel. Yes I
can understand when the bulbs cost a lot but for stainless steel with a
couple of wires, the cost is 80$ tops.
Look at a quality bike, how much does it cost for all that stainless metal
and so much more, and you are telling me a metal case is worth as much as a
good bike? :)
I understand why people choose Cichlids over Marine now :)
It's same as McDonalds, they make 99% of their money on Pepsi and Sprite,
not burgers... The size of the tank and how much the stand and the glass
costs is pennies compared to all the damn stuff you have to buy for it.
I understand, it's hard to keep a buisiness that sells something so few buy
but making prices 5 times higher than they really are is just a slap in the
face to all people who want to keep a marine tank.
I am a bit amazed at how many people actually have a reef tank, really...
Correct me if I am wrong but 90% or even more of the water on earth is
saltwater.
Freshwater now costs 3-5 times less? The corals cost 60$ and higher?
Don't you think Marine should cost less than freshwater if you think about
it?
Fiji rocks cost 5$/lb? We import toys from China and they cost 99 cents and
that's not just a plain piece of plastic, somebody had to work to make it,
whole factories, 99 cents.
Imagine how much it costs the factory to make those toys, if it cost 1 cent
I would be surprised because it's probably even less than that.
Plastic doesn't come from nature, plants and animals do, they should cost
PENNIES considering all you have to do is catch them with NETS and ship them
just like anything else.
Considering even a shop like walmart uses fish for entertainment, they cost
so little anybody should be able to afford them...
And here we are talking 600$ for a piece of steel and some light bulbs...
Imagine how much food you can buy on 600 dollars, and how much work had to
be done to make that food, and now compare all that work to the work that
has to be done to make a piece of steel and a couple of fluorescent light
bulbs...
Maybe I am just a fool who hasn't seen anything yet but marine fishkeeping
just got on my "overpriced" list, I can compare it to Vodka and Cigarettes
and Cocaine which are so overpriced it's ridiculous..
I am sorry if I made anybody upset with my little speech here, no offense.
Tom Coon wrote in message ...
Tom Coon
--
Tom
http://trmrcoon.mybravenet.com
"Andy Semenihin" <and...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3c8Z7.35503$AS4.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Jimmy Chen
> to water during water changes :)
If all you want to do is keep fish, then you dont have to worry about the
light, but you do still need to have a good marine style filtering system.
You can find a lot of DIY plans on the web on how to build one. So it can be
cheap. Problem with reef is because of the special light demand and almost
perfect water quality. So you cannot skim on what you need to expect it to
work. Even if you go DIY on lighting, it will still cost you close to $200
as other mentioned to put it all together.
> No offense but don't tell me it costs money to create stainless steel. Yes
I
> can understand when the bulbs cost a lot but for stainless steel with a
> couple of wires, the cost is 80$ tops.
Ahh, take a peice of stainless steel and soak it in saltwater ... see how
long it will stay stainless ... ;p
What is stainless in FW doesnt mean it is stainless in SW.
> I understand why people choose Cichlids over Marine now :)
Like I said, if you are talking about fish only, the cost can be much
cheaper. But since this is a reef group, I tend to assume you want corals,
not just fish.
> Freshwater now costs 3-5 times less? The corals cost 60$ and higher?
> Don't you think Marine should cost less than freshwater if you think about
> it?
FW is cheap, available in any city, plus FW fish breeds like rabbits and you
dont even need to care for them. Out of the hundreds of tropical marine
fish, there are only around a dozen or two the industry is able to breed
right now, the rest are ALL catch by someone who dive in the ocean. So this
is the major factor why the marine hobby is so expensive. You think there is
unlimited supply in the ocean, agreed. But someone needs to physical go
there to catch it in order for you to keep one in the tank.
> Fiji rocks cost 5$/lb? We import toys from China and they cost 99 cents
and
> that's not just a plain piece of plastic, somebody had to work to make it,
> whole factories, 99 cents.
Again, comparing apples with oranges ... Every one in China tomorow can walk
to a factory and start working, not every one in China can dive in the ocean
and catch a marine fish tomorrow for you.
jc
James D
what people are willing to pay for it. Supply and demand... ; )
On the Fiji LR issue, remember that someone has to dive for it, and the rock
has to be shipped quickly, usually via air freight, and kept wet en route.
Then someone has to receive it, clean it up and cure it, then ship it again
via air freight to you. The freight and special handling is expensive.
Those Chinese toys can sit in bins and collect dust and be put on a ship
that takes a month or more to make it here. That's cheap shipping. As a
practical example, you can send a letter anywhere in the US for 34 cents,
but if you want it there quickly, you have to pay $10 to FedEx... Same
letter, but 30 times the cost to get it there overnight versus 3-5 days.
--
James D
Dallas, TX
To reply by email, please change the ".invalid" in my address to ".net."
Thanks.
"Andy Semenihin" <and...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3c8Z7.35503$AS4.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Joe Halada
wish
> to are light demanding, go with MH no matter what size tank you have. If
you
> are concern about VHO/MH being too expensive, you can always go with those
> 10KK MH bulbs which do not require VHO supplements.
Jimmy,
My current plan is to actually go with a 96" aquarium, and to put 2 of these
36" lamps:
http://www.customsealife.com/NewFiles/pc36496.html
on 2 ends, which will leave me 24" in the middle, and I can add a MH there
later, when my tank is in stable, working condition. I can then buy the
light demanding corals later on, place them in the middle, less demanding on
the sides.
Do you prefer VHO to PC? If so, why?
PS: When I was looking for good LFSs in New York area, I came across your
post:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Jimmy+Chen+New+York&group=rec.aquaria.mari
ne.reefs&selm=%23zHPP0Io9GA.93%40upnetnews05&rnum=7
(I don't know if the link worked).
In this post (from 1998) you listed following LFSs:
1. Country Critters out in LI, Route 112, exit 53 (?) of Sunrise Hywy.
2. Aqua-Tropics out in NJ, route 46. Gardfield I believe.
3. Tropical Aquarium in Queens, around Queens Center on Wood Heaven Blvd.
4. Ace Pet Shop in Queens - Main St and Northern Blvd in Flushing
5. New World Aquarium on 8th St in the village.
I went to:
- New World Aquarium - they moved to 38th Street East of 3rd Avenue in New
York City
- Aquaa Tropics, which is now called Absolutely Fish:
http://absolutelyfish.com/ I had a bit of a sticker shock when I saw the
prices of stuff I liked. Are these mainstream prices, or is this store on
the expensive side?
I was wondering if Country Critters is still in business, and if it is still
the highest quality, in your opinion. I am going to Long Island this
weekend and would like to stop by. I haven't fully sold my wife on this
aquarium idea, so an LFS with impressive looking reefs would definitely
help.
Thanks,
Joe Halada
Dsybok
$1300. Lighting is not going to run $500 though, a good PC setup for that
size tank wont be more than $250 with a couple actinic support lamps. I
cannot repeat enough, on a small tank MH is a MISTAKE , too much heat and
too much cost and PC work just as well on most corals.
DA
Dsybok
power compact retrofit kit complete with bulbs. Buy a prizim or other
cheaper but quality skimmer for $150, add some crushed coral substrate for
PH buffering , add 40 lbs of liverock or so in your 20G and you are ready
to add fish. You could easily keep a number of hardy corals under this setup
with only occasional tweaking of the skimmer, once a month 5% water change
and a couple $7 every six months supplements for the corals and Liverock.
Its more expensive than freshwater, no one is going to deny that, but it
doesnt have to be exorbitant. I will say, that I didnt contemplate saltwater
until I was 21 and had some discretionary income, after keeping FW for 10
years. Sounds like you are not yet financially ready for this.
D
Jimmy Chen
> cannot repeat enough, on a small tank MH is a MISTAKE , too much heat and
> too much cost and PC work just as well on most corals.
Then you havent asked Charlie D about his 10 gal nano and 175w MH. ;p
Jimmy Chen
> You could easily keep a number of hardy corals under this setup
Hmm, I wont recommend this because FW filtering system will produce high
level of nitrate, which will kill off the corals pretty fast. So $30 saved
here will only be more expensive when corals starts to die.
Christ's soldiers
three years and this is my second tank. I am living on a modest, OK low,
income with a wife and two kids so I'm far from rich. I bought my set up (29
gal tank, stand, glass versa top, 1 24" tube flo.) for 150$ I bought 200$
dollars worth of LR and a 20$ bag of argonite. I threw another light on the
tank from another old tank I had (a 12" flo.) I bought a fancy 50/50 bulb
for that one for 20$ and that was it. Later on I added a back pack style
skimmer for 100$ but the tank was going fine without it. Don't get me wrong
it's not cheap but the initial cost is the bulk of it. The maintenance is
not to bad. Corals are expensive so I don't have any but will add some as
time goes on. Whats my point? I don't have one! But if you want to set up a
salt water tank just do a lot a research and make a list of the best prices
on what you need. Don't be discouraged by cost just spend a couple paychecks
on it to get started (your 15! live it up while you can!) then grow from
there.
--
_l_
l
Christ's Soldiers
<>< l ><>
W.W.J.D.
www.geocities.com/christssoldiers
Jimmy Chen
these
> 36" lamps:
Is the 96" 240 gal, with 24" height, or other size with 30" height?
> http://www.customsealife.com/NewFiles/pc36496.html
> on 2 ends, which will leave me 24" in the middle, and I can add a MH there
> later, when my tank is in stable, working condition. I can then buy the
> light demanding corals later on, place them in the middle, less demanding
on
> the sides.
>
> Do you prefer VHO to PC? If so, why?
IMHO, waste of money. They are no good for anything other then low light
corals, low height tanks (under 20") or acting as supplements.
I went from 4x110 VHO to 2x150w MH and my corals did better. ;p
Since you are going with an 8 ft tank, I seriously recommend you just go
with MH from the get go and forget VHO/PC all together.
Lets figure this out based on MarineDepot's prices ...
2 x 36496 retro = $860
2 x 36496 ABS = $1020.
4x250w 10kk MH retro fit w/ spider reflectors = $940
4x250w 10kk MH with PFO pendent = $1130.
So price-wise you arent saving much with PCs, retro or ABS, compared to
4x250w MH. 175w will only be cheaper. Beauty of this? You can get 2x175w for
the sides, and 2x250w for the center.
What can also work here too is you can get only 2x250w as a start, and add
more MH later.
If you REALLY want to go crazy, which is an idea that I am thinking but
havent done, is get those moving light tracks (~$200) which plant MOs sell,
and use one 400w for each 4 ft distance. So 2x400 traveling light. ;p
> - New World Aquarium - they moved to 38th Street East of 3rd Avenue in New
> York City
Yeah, some one said they werent there in the Village anymore.
> - Aquaa Tropics, which is now called Absolutely Fish:
Correct. Same store, and same people too.
> http://absolutelyfish.com/ I had a bit of a sticker shock when I saw the
> prices of stuff I liked. Are these mainstream prices, or is this store on
> the expensive side?
Yes, they are in the expensive side, especially the corals. However, out of
all of the LFS around the hr driving distance of NYC, they are one which I
will buy corals from, and one of the two that I will buy SPS from.
> I was wondering if Country Critters is still in business, and if it is
still
> the highest quality, in your opinion. I am going to Long Island this
> weekend and would like to stop by. I haven't fully sold my wife on this
> aquarium idea, so an LFS with impressive looking reefs would definitely
> help.
Ahh, then bring your wife to CC. She needs to see their FS tanks. But they
are just as expensive as AF. However, IMHO I think their corals are better
in quality as well, especially SPS. CC is the only other place where I will
buy SPS from.
When you go to CC, make sure you stop right by the entrance of the fish room
and check out the 92 gal corner. Of course, this is after you check out
their HUGE fish display tank . ;p
jc
Doug S.
each MH bulb). And, the most important money you will spend, several
hundred dollars for books (I am sure I have passed the $1000 mark by now).
The good reef oriented books cost about $50 a pop, and generally include 2-4
volumes each. And they are money well spent. It is always great to see
someone else looking into this fascinating hobby, but don't be
disillusioned, it is very expensive. Not can be, IS. If you are willing to
sacrifice a lot of money, and the time to research and do it right, it is
very rewarding. Trust me, when your friends come over and see a thriving
reef tank, they will be in awe. Not long ago, a coral was not much more
than a rock to me. Now I can bore my friends to tears with details on each
of them in my aquarium (and have been known to do so).
If you are serious about a reef system, buy yourself a good book, and start
reading. I would recommend:
1: The Conscientious marine Aquarist (NOT the holy grail, but a good
beginners book), Tullocks book also falls into this class I believe, though
I don't own it.
2: The Reef Aquarium (volumes 1&2) Much more advanced
3: The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium (volumes 1-3) another advanced book set
that every reef aquarist should own eventually (when is Vol. 4 coming out?!)
These are just from the books I own, there are many other good books as
well. But read as much as you can, and be aware that you will get many
conflicting opinions. Ultimately, you will find your own way of doing
things, and that is probably why everyone in this newsgroup takes such pride
in running a successful reef aquarium. It is THEIR aquarium, and could
never be duplicated.
Best of luck, should you decide to join this group of insane people.
Doug
Sorry if I rambled, I just got home from the pub.
Joe Halada
From: "Jimmy Chen" <ji...@reefkeepers.DOTorg>
Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: New to the newsgroup :)
> > My current plan is to actually go with a 96" aquarium, and to
> > put 2 of these 36" lamps:
>
> Is the 96" 240 gal, with 24" height, or other size with 30" height?
My idea is to go with 24", but a friend of mine who is helping me design a
custom stand is trying to talk me into a 37" tall, which is listed on the
Oceanic site:
http://www.oceanicsystems.com/products_dimensions.html#CustomAquariums
(if you scroll down a bit).
I think it is a bit crazy from the lighting consideration, and from the
sheer weight. I will need to figure out how much weight my floor can
support. I am undecided, between 24 and 30". 24" would be a lot simpler,
because I could probably go with the PC idea (
http://www.customsealife.com/NewFiles/pc36496.html ) and add later a MH in
the center. With 30" height, I guess I pretty much have to go with several
MH lamps along the length.
The problems I see with MH is that it has so much heat concentrated in small
area (which would make the aquarium off-limits for the kids), the height
requirement of the lamp itself, plus a "safety zone" between MHs and the
water, to make sure I don't touch it. Another thing I worry about is cold
water splashing on the bulbs. I guess with PCs or VHOs, it's not a problem,
with MH, I imagine the bulb could burst. Do they have any protective glass
or acrylic to prevent this from happening in a situation when the MH is
fairly close to the water (which is what I will have)?
> > Do you prefer VHO to PC? If so, why?
>
> IMHO, waste of money. They are no good for anything other then low light
> corals, low height tanks (under 20") or acting as supplements.
>
> I went from 4x110 VHO to 2x150w MH and my corals did better. ;p
So do you now have all MH lighting now (no flourescent Actinic light)?
Which bulbs are you using? Also, is there a difference in efficiency of
PC/VHO vs. MH in lumens / W?
Have you read an article in current issue of FAMA where an author named Bob
Fenner is all pushing fluorescent and PC over all the other alternatives?
What did you think about it (if you read it)?
> Since you are going with an 8 ft tank, I seriously recommend you just go
> with MH from the get go and forget VHO/PC all together.
>
> Lets figure this out based on MarineDepot's prices ...
>
> 2 x 36496 retro = $860
> 2 x 36496 ABS = $1020.
> 4x250w 10kk MH retro fit w/ spider reflectors = $940
> 4x250w 10kk MH with PFO pendent = $1130.
>
> So price-wise you arent saving much with PCs, retro or ABS, compared to
> 4x250w MH. 175w will only be cheaper. Beauty of this? You can get
> 2x175w for the sides, and 2x250w for the center.
Interesting... I thought MH would be more.
How would you describe the difference in the way a tank would look with 800
W of PC flourescent light vs. 850 to 1,000W of MH?
> If you REALLY want to go crazy, which is an idea that I am thinking but
> havent done, is get those moving light tracks (~$200) which plant MOs
sell,
> and use one 400w for each 4 ft distance. So 2x400 traveling light. ;p
Wouldn't that confuse the fish? Now that you bring up higher intensity
lights, suppose someone sold 200W MH. Which one would generate more light,
2 x 200W bulbs (placed very close to each other) or 1 x 400W?
Thanks for all the help
Joe Halada
Snorkelboy
It cost approx £180 to set up. No expensive lights, artificial
saltwater or purchased animals.
Although the colours of the fish aren't quite as bright as tropical
species the anemones,hydroids etc... are very spectacular and I bet
the biodiversity of the tank approaches or even exceeds tropical tank
levels.
Also - you get the added fun of going out on collection trips to the
shore, and you can obviously directly control collection methods and
thus ensure you avoid any damage to the ecosystem you're taking from.
Of course this is pretty tricky to do if you don't live near the
coast.
Snorkelboy
Jimmy Chen
> custom stand is trying to talk me into a 37" tall, which is listed on the
> Oceanic site:
> http://www.oceanicsystems.com/products_dimensions.html#CustomAquariums
> (if you scroll down a bit).
LOL, 540 gal at 37" height? Forget even my idea of the 400w lights. NM the
PCs. John Rice, when his 450 cracked, felt his light wasnt enough and he
went with 1000w. Because he had the placed light right over the plastic
support bracket of his acrylic tank, the heat and his attemp to cool it down
with water finally caused the crack.
There was one SPS fragger was using something like 2300w of lighting over
his 45 gal conor tank for growing SPS. I must admit those were the most
colorful SPS I have ever seen. Least I hear he is no longer in the hobby. Of
course, heating was a serious problem for him. ;p
> I am undecided, between 24 and 30". 24" would be a lot simpler,
Also it is much easier for you to stick your arm in and arrange whatever you
want with the 24". Try that with a 30 or 37".
> The problems I see with MH is that it has so much heat concentrated in
small
> area (which would make the aquarium off-limits for the kids), the height
> requirement of the lamp itself, plus a "safety zone" between MHs and the
> water, to make sure I don't touch it. Another thing I worry about is cold
> water splashing on the bulbs.
All no worry at all. All you need to do is hang it off the ceiling. This
will allow for few things ...
1. Adjustment of lighting height as however you like to change for
intensity. My lights are 9" above surface level.
2. Use real fans instead of those puny 4" fans for cooling. I use one 6"
portable fan.
3. For splashing, you can always include the pendent in glass. But typically
the distance wont require it. It is not likely for water to splash that far
unless you dropped something into the tank.
I guess with PCs or VHOs, it's not a problem,
> with MH, I imagine the bulb could burst. Do they have any protective
glass
> or acrylic to prevent this from happening in a situation when the MH is
> fairly close to the water (which is what I will have)?
Any glass will do for MH, even tho UV rated will be even better.
> So do you now have all MH lighting now (no flourescent Actinic light)?
> Which bulbs are you using? Also, is there a difference in efficiency of
> PC/VHO vs. MH in lumens / W?
Right now I have 2x150w HQI, 1x250w HQI on one side. So effectively the
system is 1x150 on one side, and 400w on the other. My next idea is do the
400w travelling light.
> Have you read an article in current issue of FAMA where an author named
Bob
> Fenner is all pushing fluorescent and PC over all the other alternatives?
> What did you think about it (if you read it)?
Nope. I dont pay attention to Bob Fenner when it comes to lighting. Dana
Riddle is the lighting expert in this hobby, not B. Fenner.
Here is an article for you by Dana ... He doesnt recommend VHO/PC over 20"
height.
http://www.masla.com/reef/lightingbasics.html
His method of measurement is 3000 lux at the deepest part of your tank.
> Interesting... I thought MH would be more.
MH is only a lot more when you go with the MH + supplement combo.
> How would you describe the difference in the way a tank would look with
800
> W of PC flourescent light vs. 850 to 1,000W of MH?
I cannot tell you based on 850 vs 1000, but I can tell you based on 440 vs
300.
1. You get the glimmering with MH.
2. Portion of the bottom actually be brighter, because the MH light is more
intense. (more later)
3. VHO will give off more neon glow. I can be wrong, but I dont believe PC
has yet done this.
> Wouldn't that confuse the fish?
Why? There are waves and cloud shadows in nature, isnt there? ;p
Now that you bring up higher intensity
> lights, suppose someone sold 200W MH. Which one would generate more
light,
> 2 x 200W bulbs (placed very close to each other) or 1 x 400W?
Lets say we use 100w of VHO/PC vs 100w of MH as an example ... MH will
always look brighter around the center, and loses the intensity as you go
away from the light. VHO/PC will always have the same intensity under the
bulbs, no matter what. However, comparing to directly under the bulb, MH
will always be stronger.
Here is why ... The intensity of the 100w MH comes a little arc tube, which
generally is no more then 1" in length for 100w, and 400w is only couple of
inches I think. So that is at worst case 100w per inch. Whereas VHO/PC, that
100w is from the full length, or 48 inches of the tube. That means the whole
surface generates only a little over 2w per inch. Then a typical VHO is 1.5"
in dia, which only adds more to the surface area. So even with PC being 36",
that is still only a little over 3w per inch.
So while both gives off the same wattage, the total surface that is used to
generate the 100w is very different.
Btw, IMHO it is easier to cool off a MH fixture then VHO/PC fixture. While
MH seems hotter, but the heat is all concentrated. While VHO/PC seems
cooler, but the heat is already disbursed. Another interesting note to this
is when you visit any home heating sites, they will always say low intensity
of disbursed heat is more efficient then highly concentrated heat at raising
temps for an area, right? ;p
Jimmy Chen
> each MH bulb).
Well, we can go with PFO dual ballast for now ... ;p
> If you are serious about a reef system, buy yourself a good book, and
start
> reading. I would recommend:
> 3: The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium (volumes 1-3) another advanced book set
> that every reef aquarist should own eventually (when is Vol. 4 coming
out?!)
Good question ... I just noticed from the MCRA site they are back to 5 vol
again, which is how many the German version is. They originally only planned
4 vols for the English version.
jc
Dsybok
filter. I am suggesting he use his existing tank, canopy, stand, heater, and
thermometer and powerhead if he has it.
DA
Dsybok
which on your tank would run you $150 for a nice dual PC setup and you can
use your old flourescent tubes for actinic bulbs.
DA
Jimmy Chen
Then we need to make that clear ... "use most of your existing freshwater
equipment" ... can only means air pump, light, heater, and filter ... There
isnt much to a typical FW setup. ;p
jc
Tom Coon
considered an expert reefkeeper. Ya think? :-) A new reef aquarist might
have light acclimation problems with 175 watts on a 20. Also, you are
making the assumption that a new reefer would want the type of corals that
require this type of lighting. It's easy to get caught up in the thinking
that I what like and want, everybody will like and want.
Just my .02
--
Tom
http://trmrcoon.mybravenet.com
"Jimmy Chen" <ji...@reefkeepers.DOTorg> wrote in message
news:4daZ7.272810$XA5.45...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
Jimmy Chen
> considered an expert reefkeeper. Ya think? :-) A new reef aquarist might
> have light acclimation problems with 175 watts on a 20.
But isnt that the whole point of me bring up Charlie's name in this respect?
After all, if Charlie does it, then he must know and can teach that newbie
something the newbie doesnt know in respect to the heating issue ...
No newbie is going to learn unless someone or something teaches them how,
unless they want to do it the hard way via trial and error ...
jc
Tom Coon
respect?
> After all, if Charlie does it, then he must know and can teach that newbie
> something the newbie doesnt know in respect to the heating issue ...
Two problems with this. Few, if any, newbies even know who Charles is. I
didn't for a long time. Two) Charles isn't here. I really mean no
disrespect by this Jimmy, but you have forgotten what it is like to be a
Newbie *yourself*. There is no doubt in my mind that if you were to set up
a 20 gal tank today, with your experience, you would put this lighting on it
and be successful at the corals that you choose. Therefore you feel that
this is the best method, and so everybody should do it this way. This is
not for everyone though. I feel that this much lighting on a nano tank is
absurd for a newbie and downright intimidating for myself. With the depth
of a 20 gallon tank, 100 watts would be the optimum, (IMO) average
recommendation for this tank. There aren't too many corals that won't live
under these lighting conditions in this tank.
> No newbie is going to learn unless someone or something teaches them how,
OK, good point.
> unless they want to do it the hard way via trial and error ...
That's what I'm afraid of. Many people come on here and grab a tidbit of
info and leave. I have recently spoken with many people who have tried, or
are trying to have a SW tank. Many of these people *have* been here, but
only for a spark of advice and then moved on. Many have failed thinking
that they were knowledgeable. I am amazed that they don't spend more time
here, but they don't know who the rest of the people are here. For the
majority of us here, not only are we "reefgeeks", but "computer geeks" and
feel quite natural spending a lot of time here. Most reef hobbyists are not
this way.
So, If I'm walking down the street and someone bumps into me and asks how
much lighting for a 20. I'll say 100 watts and move on, never to see them
again, knowing I've given the best advice under the circumstances.
Sorry for being so long winded, but the underlying point is valid for more
than just lighting.
Then again, maybe I'm FOS. ;-)
--
Tom
http://trmrcoon.mybravenet.com
Jimmy Chen
> didn't for a long time. Two) Charles isn't here.
Well, then at least one would expect they can do a little more research on
the web, now that someone (me), mentioned someone (Charlie D), have done
nano with 175w MH. If they dont do the research when they never heard of
both, that is one story. But now they have heard of both and still dont do
the research. Then sorry to say, they shouldnt be in this hobby. Sounds
harsh, but I am only speaking of the truth. This hobby isnt a hand holding
baby sitting diaper changing hobby. A lot of self driven learning and
research is required. You may think I am an expert, but I am still searching
the web learning new things on reefkeeping every day. Expert, no where
close. I just happen to know more information then you do as of this point.
Who knows, maybe next year you will know as much as I do.
Coming from the other side ... Yes, while place a 175w over a 10/20 gal can
lead to heating problems, especially when you dont know what you are doing.
But to come out and say it is down right dangerous is also an incorrect
statement at best. Heck, driving is down right dangerous when you place a
non-driver behind the wheel, but to a driver it is 2nd nature. If that
non-driver wants to learn how to drive, then s/he needs to find out and
learn how to drive. We cannot just sit there and watch him/her 24x7.
I really mean no
> disrespect by this Jimmy, but you have forgotten what it is like to be a
> Newbie *yourself*.
LOL, I wish I have forgotten it. Try flipping thru TRA vol 1 as your best
reef bible, and that monthly infomercial FAMA as your backup.
> I feel that this much lighting on a nano tank is
> absurd for a newbie and downright intimidating for myself. With the depth
> of a 20 gallon tank, 100 watts would be the optimum, (IMO) average
> recommendation for this tank. There aren't too many corals that won't
live
> under these lighting conditions in this tank.
Why? Explain to me why you think 100w is the max one should try? I will
explain to you why 175w will be no problem at all in your reply post.
> That's what I'm afraid of. Many people come on here and grab a tidbit of
> info and leave. I have recently spoken with many people who have tried,
or
> are trying to have a SW tank. Many of these people *have* been here, but
> only for a spark of advice and then moved on. Many have failed thinking
> that they were knowledgeable. I am amazed that they don't spend more time
> here, but they don't know who the rest of the people are here. For the
> majority of us here, not only are we "reefgeeks", but "computer geeks" and
> feel quite natural spending a lot of time here. Most reef hobbyists are
not
> this way.
Once again, IMHO that is their own fault. If tomorrow you need to get
something done that you dont know much about, and you found a group of
people who is more then welling to teach you how. Will you walk away from
that offer? If you do, then any failure on your part is your own fault.
Being on the internet has nothing to do about being computer geeks or not.
It has to do with how much you desire to learn the information that is
available. AOL has over 30 million paid subscribers. I am sure they are not
all computer geeks.
> Then again, maybe I'm FOS. ;-)
What is FOS?
jc
Tom Coon
FOS = Full Of ....Sugar
--
Tom
http://trmrcoon.mybravenet.com
"Jimmy Chen" <ji...@reefkeepers.DOTorg> wrote in message
news:5AvZ7.273332$XA5.45...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
Chris Robin
I think that you make so good points. The equipment is over priced but the
tanks are soo cool.news:3c8Z7.35503$AS4.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Chris Robin
I think that you make so good points. The equipment is over priced but the
tanks are soo cool
"Andy Semenihin" <and...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3c8Z7.35503$AS4.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...