Denitrators
Adam
last night and came across these plans for a 'coil denitrator'
http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/blank/bldondiydenitratornew.htm
As you can see from the domain, it is in the salt water section of
about.com. If you click on the thumbnail pictures of the plans, you can
see each page of the article (I hate the layout of about.com BTW).
Do these things "work?" That is, doesn't the nitrate have to turn into
something?! What is the waste product of the de nitrifying bacteria?
Wouldn't the TDS levels still rise? If so, doesn't this mean water
changes are still vital? If you are the type of person that only
changes water when the things you test for change (rise in nitrates,
nitrites blah blah blah) then I can see this just disguising the need
to do water changes. Am I making any sense?
Of course I would never DREAM of slacking on my water changes (before
MG says something)
George Patterson
> Do these things "work?" That is, doesn't the nitrate have to turn into
> something?
I don't know how they work, but the goal is to turn the nitrates (NO3) into
gaseous nitrogen and oxygen.
George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.
Pszemol
> Do these things "work?" That is, doesn't the nitrate have to turn into
> something?! What is the waste product of the de nitrifying bacteria?
Yes, they do work, but having a properly working sand bed
will do the same in a more biological way...
I have more problems with phosphates than nitrates in my tanks.
Wayne Sallee
up reef tank because of nitrates. Your live rock and live
sand should be taking care of that.
The end product of a denitrator is N2 the oxygen in NO3 is
taken away converting the NO3 into NO2, and the oxygen
from NO2 is taken away converting it into N2.
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
Wa...@WaynesPets.com
Stoutman
Why do you think you need one?
>That is, doesn't the nitrate have to turn into
> something?!
Yes N2 and H2O via denitrifying bacteria present in your live rock.
See:
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=14329&cid=3793&search=
>What is the waste product of the de nitrifying bacteria?
N2 and H2O.
> Wouldn't the TDS levels still rise? If so, doesn't this mean water
> changes are still vital?
Contrary to popular marine aquarium lore, you DO NOT NEED to do partial
water changes. My nitrites and nitrates are UNDETECTABLE using store
bought LFS test kits. I have not done a water change in over a year (very
close to two).
>If you are the type of person that only changes water when the things you
>test for change (rise in nitrates,
> nitrites blah blah blah) then I can see this just disguising the need
> to do water changes. Am I making any sense?
"...disguising the need to do water changes." ...hmm If something
causes your nitrites and nitrates to be very low than why would you NEED to
do a water change? Just for fun?
> Of course I would never DREAM of slacking on my water changes (before
> MG says something)
Stop following the herd!
>
Stoutman
> into gaseous nitrogen and oxygen.
wrong. N2 and H2O
2NO3- + 12H+ -----(enzymatic)-----> N2 + 6H2O
Pszemol
>> I don't know how they work, but the goal is to turn the nitrates (NO3)
>> into gaseous nitrogen and oxygen.
>
> wrong. N2 and H2O
>
> 2NO3- + 12H+ -----(enzymatic)-----> N2 + 6H2O
And how did you get 12H+ on your left side ?
Pszemol
> Contrary to popular marine aquarium lore, you DO NOT NEED to do partial
> water changes. My nitrites and nitrates are UNDETECTABLE using store
> bought LFS test kits. I have not done a water change in over a year (very
> close to two).
> "...disguising the need to do water changes." ...hmm If something
> causes your nitrites and nitrates to be very low than why would you NEED
> to do a water change? Just for fun?
So you are saying that over time the water chemistry
will not change in the closed system like a reef tank ?
You know, there are much more different ions there
beside NO3-... With partial water change you replenish
ions used up by growing animals/plants in your tank.
You also remove organic byproducts your skimmer left behind.
Stoutman
-- "Pszemol" <Psz...@PolBox.com> wrote in message
news:eefjsp...@poczta.onet.pl...
The above equation is the overall reduction of nitrate to nitrogen gas and
water. It is an enzymatic reaction that involves the enzyme nitrate
reductase (among others). The H+ that you are questioning are picked up
from general acids from within the enzyme's active site (i.e. histidine
residues).
>
Stoutman
>> "...disguising the need to do water changes." ...hmm If something
>> causes your nitrites and nitrates to be very low than why would you NEED
>> to do a water change? Just for fun?
> So you are saying that over time the water chemistry
> will not change in the closed system like a reef tank ?
This is called setting up a "straw man". No. I am not saying this at all.
>
> You know, there are much more different ions there
> beside NO3-...
Yes, I am aware.
>With partial water change you replenish
> ions used up by growing animals/plants in your tank.
I add trace elements (Kent Marine Essential Elements) on a monthly basis.
> You also remove organic byproducts your skimmer left behind.
Such as?
George Patterson
> wrong. N2 and H2O
Where's the hydrogen come from? You can split two NO3 molecules into one N2 and
three O2 molecules.
Pszemol
>> So you are saying that over time the water chemistry
>> will not change in the closed system like a reef tank ?
>
> This is called setting up a "straw man".
> No. I am not saying this at all.
You were questioning the reason to change water
based on nitrates...
>> You know, there are much more different ions there
>> beside NO3-...
>
> Yes, I am aware.
Then you are probably aware also, that 80% of their
levels you cannot measure at home acuratelly.
>>With partial water change you replenish
>> ions used up by growing animals/plants in your tank.
>
> I add trace elements (Kent Marine Essential Elements) on a monthly basis.
Each element is used up in a different speed, but you dump
all of them on a monthly basis regardless if you need it or not.
That will lead over time to chemical imbalance and your tank
water will be far, far away from the content of natural sea water
compared to the water mixed from the fresh salt mix.
>> You also remove organic byproducts your skimmer left behind.
>
> Such as?
All these which make your water smell and look yellow.
Corals, other invertebrates, fish and plants constantly
release many substances to the water which accumulate
in the closed system like an aquarium. You are not able
to measure them or detect them in home situation...
Changing water refreshes the water and brings it back
to its original ionic combination...
Would you be fine if your house was perfectly sealed
from the outside air and you just reduce amount of
CO2 and add oxygen on regular basis but would not
exchange air for years? How do you think your house
would smell ? :-))
George Patterson
> Do these things "work?" That is, doesn't the nitrate have to turn into
> something?! What is the waste product of the de nitrifying bacteria?
A web search turns up several articles. Basically, the denitrator is a bacterial
filter that contains cultures of bacteria that eat oxygen. These bacteria remove
the oxygen from the NO3, producing free nitrogen as a byproduct.
See http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/DenitratorInstructions.html
Wayne Sallee
> Contrary to popular marine aquarium lore, you DO NOT NEED to do partial
> water changes. My nitrites and nitrates are UNDETECTABLE using store
> bought LFS test kits. I have not done a water change in over a year (very
> close to two).
>
LOL this is a reef newsgroup, not a fish only newsgroup.
Wayne Sallee
hehehe yep, and while he's at it, Stoutman can do away
with the toilet, just use a can, and stop taking showers :-)
Wayne Sallee
> I add trace elements (Kent Marine *Essential* Elements) on a monthly basis.
>
>
>
heheheheheheh
Stoutman
> Where's the hydrogen come from?
See my response to Pszemol.
>You can split two NO3 molecules into one N2 and three O2 molecules.
Who/what can? The NO3 is broken down enzymatically. The enzyme(s) do not
split NO3 into N2 and O2.
Stoutman
--
> You were questioning the reason to change water
> based on nitrates...
I am not questioning anything, I am answering Adam's (the OP) question. See
above in the thread.
>>> You know, there are much more different ions there
>>> beside NO3-...
>>
>> Yes, I am aware.
>
> Then you are probably aware also, that 80% of their
> levels you cannot measure at home acuratelly.
80% of what levels? Can you be more specific? Doesn't how accurate you
need to be depend on the ion you are referring to?
>>>With partial water change you replenish
>>> ions used up by growing animals/plants in your tank.
>>
>> I add trace elements (Kent Marine Essential Elements) on a monthly basis.
>
> Each element is used up in a different speed, but you dump
> all of them on a monthly basis regardless if you need it or not.
How do you replenish your trace elements? Partial water change? When you
do your partial water change you are removing some percentage of water
(15-20%?) and adding artificial sea salt (usually contains trace elements).
How do you know your tank needs it (trace elements)?
> That will lead over time to chemical imbalance and your tank
> water will be far, far away from the content of natural sea water
> compared to the water mixed from the fresh salt mix.
You are FAR MORE likely to cause a chemical imbalance by replacing a
percentage (15-20%?) of your aquarium water with home made sea water than
you are by doing no water change.
>
>>> You also remove organic byproducts your skimmer left behind.
>>
>> Such as?
>
> All these which make your water smell and look yellow.
> Corals, other invertebrates, fish and plants constantly
> release many substances to the water which accumulate
> in the closed system like an aquarium.
My skimmer runs 24hrs a day. The organic compounds it doesn't remove on the
first pass will more than likely be removed on the second, third, fourth or
fifth, etc. pass.
>You are not able to measure them or detect them in home situation...
Agreed. Therefore, I have NO reason to question my skimmers effectiveness.
I can only go by the health/appearance of my tank mates. They are doing
fine. All is well. My water is not yellow and it does not smell.
> Changing water refreshes the water and brings it back
> to its original ionic combination...
The only way YOU would "bring it back to its original" condition is if you
changed 100% of your water. Is this what you are doing? If this is what
you are doing you are doing more harm than good.
> Would you be fine if your house was perfectly sealed
> from the outside air and you just reduce amount of
> CO2 and add oxygen on regular basis but would not
> exchange air for years?
Another straw man.
>How do you think your house would smell ? :-))
I do not have microorganisms that eat and decompose my excrements, my
aquarium inhabitants do.
Stoutman
> bacterial filter that contains cultures of bacteria that eat oxygen. These
> bacteria remove the oxygen from the NO3, producing free nitrogen as a
> byproduct.
So very wrong, but so close. The denitrator sets up an anaerobic
environment (oxygen depleted) for the bacteria to thrive that break down
NO3-, it's called denitrification. These anaerobic bacteria contain enzymes
that break down NO3- into N2 and H2O.
Stoutman
That's right, I have a FOWLR tank, nevertheless, my comments are still
applicable.
Stoutman
H2O.
Wayne Sallee
No, he was right. The bacteria consume oxygen, thus
reducing nitrate to nitrogen. A lot of other things get
reduced of oxygen as well.
Wayne Sallee
hehehe
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
Wa...@WaynesPets.com
Stoutman
> No, he was right. The bacteria consume oxygen, thus reducing nitrate to
> nitrogen. A lot of other things get reduced of oxygen as well.
No he is wrong. O2 is NOT produced. The oxygen's that are removed from
NO2- end up as H2O. NOT free O2. It is a VERY complex series of events.
Never is O2 produced along the way.
Look into denitrification. It is an ENZYMATIC process in anaerobic bacteria
involving more than one enzyme.
SEE: http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/articles/2002/nitrogencycle.html
(Look at the part that refers to denitrification and anaerobic bacteria)
Stoutman
It actually goes NO3--->NO2---->N2 + H2O
Wayne Sallee
was produced, yet you said that he was wrong, and now you
are trying to prove yourself right by adding stuff that
was not in the post that you quoted.
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
Wa...@WaynesPets.com
Wayne Sallee
Actually it's very simple. Just as we consume oxygen, so
do many types of bacteria. When oxygen levels get low,
bacteria start taking oxygen away from compounds in the
water such as nitrate, nitrite, sulfate, and many other
compounds.
George Patterson
> NO3 is not split into N2 and O2 it is broken down enzymatically into N2 and
> H2O.
No, it's not. The oxygen is removed by bacteria, releasing the nitrogen.
George Patterson
> I meant to write oxygen's that are removed from NO3- end up as H2O.
>
>
> It actually goes NO3--->NO2---->N2 + H2O
No, it doesn't. You are basically arguing that you start out with NO3 and H2O
and it goes
2NO3 & 2H2O ----> 2NO2 & 2H2 ----> 2N01 & 2H2 ----> N2 & 2H2O.
The water molecules are never broken up. They just pass through when the system
is functioning properly. When water molecules do get stripped of their oxygen,
the hydrogen usually combines with sulfur to produce hydrogen sulphide.
Mark Cooper
@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
In order for the NO3 to give us N2 and H2O, wouldn't you need free H+
ions roaming around? Free hydrogen reacts pretty strongly with O2 if I
remember my chemistry correctly. Or does the free O-- released from the
NO3 pull the 2 H+ ions off the H2O and release the O2 molecule? But why
would the H+ ions do that? It would be swapping one O2 molecule for
another O2. And H2O is a very stable molecule.
Don't think H2O is produced by in the de-nitration process.
Mark
Stoutman
> No, it doesn't. You are basically arguing that you start out with NO3 and
> H2O
> and it goes
No I am not arguing that.
>
> 2NO3 & 2H2O ----> 2NO2 & 2H2 ----> 2N01 & 2H2 ----> N2 & 2H2O.
>
> The water molecules are never broken up.
Very good! When did I write water molecules were broken up?
>They just pass through when the system is functioning properly.
Still wrong. Water is produced here. 2NO3 + 12H+ ----> N2 + 6H2O
This is an enzymatic reaction involving nitrate reductase. The process is
called DENITRIFICATION. O2 is NOT produced!
Read for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrification
http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/articles/2002/nitrogencycle.html
>When water molecules do get stripped of their oxygen, the hydrogen usually
>combines with sulfur to produce hydrogen sulphide.
What? When did I mention water molecules getting stripped of oxygens?
Stoutman
> In the post that you quoted, he did not say that oxygen
> was produced
Neither did I. When did I write O2 was produced? Read this again: NO3
goes to N2 and H2O. No O2 is produced in this process (denitrification).
>, yet you said that he was wrong, and now you are trying to prove yourself
>right by adding stuff that was not in the post that you quoted.
I am supporting my argument that I had from the very beginning by providing
a web site link as support.
Wayne reread my posts.
I said from the VERY beginning that NO3 goes to H2O and N2. Never did I
write O2 was produced.
You wrote I was wrong from the beginning.
Who do you think is right now Wayne?
You must feel pretty silly? :)
Hehehehe. Lol lol lol.
lol
Pszemol
>> LOL this is a reef newsgroup, not a fish only newsgroup.
>
> That's right, I have a FOWLR tank, nevertheless,
> my comments are still applicable.
Oh, now it is clear. This group is about REEF tanks.
Let's go back to the subject when you will have a reef tank.
Stoutman
>> and H2O.
>
> No, it's not. The oxygen is removed by bacteria, releasing the nitrogen.
>
The oxygens are removed from NO3- and released to the 'system' in the form
of H2O not O2 as you stated earlier. This should give you a clue: Why
would anaerobic bacteria that thrive in low O2 environments produce O2?
Don't you think this would be counter productive to there survival?
I will write this again for the umpteen time. This process is called
DENITRIFICATION. It is an enzymatic process that converts NO3- into H2O and
N2 (O2 is NOT produced). The process involves anaerobic bacteria that
contain the enzyme nitrate reductase (among others involved in
denitrification).
O2 is NOT produced.
Stoutman
What do you think happens to the oxygen that is "removed" by the bacteria?
Stoutman
> In the post that you quoted, he did not say that oxygen
> was produced, yet you said that he was wrong, and now you are trying to
> prove yourself right by adding stuff that was not in the post that you
> quoted.
>
Patterson wrote this very early on:"I don't know how they work, but the goal
is to turn the nitrates (NO3) into
gaseous nitrogen and oxygen."
Gaseous nitrogen and oxygen to 'me' mean O2 and N2. Do you STILL think he
is right?
I will write it again so there is no confusion:
2NO3- + 12H+ ---> 6H2O and N2
If you are confused where the H+ come from let me know.
Stoutman
> In order for the NO3 to give us N2 and H2O, wouldn't you need free H+
> ions roaming around?
No. This process (denitrification) happens at an enzymatic/cellular
(anaerobic bacteria) level. The H+ come from general acids (protonated
amino acid residues, i.e. histidines) within the enzyme(s) involved.
>Free hydrogen reacts pretty strongly with O2 if I
> remember my chemistry correctly. Or does the free O-- released from the
> NO3 pull the 2 H+ ions off the H2O and release the O2 molecule? But why
> would the H+ ions do that?
Actually at the enzymatic level (nitrate reductase) it is OH- that forms
(not O--) and this quickly picks up a proton (H+) from neighboring general
acids to produce H2O.
Wayne Sallee
quote me, you deliberately leave off important parts of
the previous post in your quote to cover your tracks.
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
Wa...@WaynesPets.com
Stoutman
Give one.
Wayne Sallee
correctly you keep saying that he is wrong, when he
corrected himself by removing the o2 part, yet you still
claim he is wrong, and then when you are questioned about
it, you keep going back to the o2 thing, even though his
corrected post did not mention o2.
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
Wa...@WaynesPets.com
Stoutman
I (STOUTMAN) WROTE:
> NO3 is not split into N2 and O2 it is broken down enzymatically into N2
> and H2O.
PATTERSON WROTE THIS IN RESPONSE TO MY MESSAGE:
"No, it's not. The oxygen is removed by bacteria, releasing the nitrogen."
He is stating that my above statement is wrong by saying "NO, it's not",
therefore this means he does not agree with me that NO3- goes to N2 and H2O.
If Patterson believes that oxygen is removed by the enzyme and only N2 is
produced. What happens to the oxygen? Where do you/he think it goes? Do
you think it stays in the enzyme?
It is my contention that Patterson STILL thinks O2 is produced.
Wayne Sallee
And you are saying no to his no :-)
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
Wa...@WaynesPets.com
Stoutman
> And you are saying no to his no :-)
No ;)
Not exactly.
George Patterson
> I will write this again for the umpteen time. This process is called
> DENITRIFICATION. It is an enzymatic process that converts NO3- into H2O and
> N2 (O2 is NOT produced).
And, once more, H2O is NOT produced. It is merely a carrier.
George Patterson
> If Patterson believes that oxygen is removed by the enzyme and only N2 is
> produced. What happens to the oxygen? Where do you/he think it goes? Do
> you think it stays in the enzyme?
Not enzyme. Bacteria. Yes, that's exactly what happens. The oxygen is consumed
by the bacteria.
George Patterson
> What do you think happens to the oxygen that is "removed" by the bacteria?
That's its food.
George Patterson
> Very good! When did I write water molecules were broken up?
You stated that hydrogen combines with oxygen from the NO3 to produce H2O. When
asked where the hydrogen comes from, you stated that the "enzymes" produce it
from water. The only way they could do that is to strip oxygten atoms off the
water molecules.
> Still wrong. Water is produced here.
Not possible.
Pszemol
> Patterson wrote this very early on:"I don't know how they work, but the goal
> is to turn the nitrates (NO3) into
> gaseous nitrogen and oxygen."
>
> Gaseous nitrogen and oxygen to 'me' mean O2 and N2.
> Do you STILL think he is right?
Isn't it that the gaseous nitrogen is released as
not usable byproduct but the oxygen is fixed in the respiration
process and goes through the bacteria body later released
as water ?
Bacteria needs oxygen, but oxygen is not available in gaseous
form, so it uses it as a part of nitrates ion and is able to
tear apart the nitrates ion to grab oxygen for itself and
release not-needed nitrogen.
I think similar process is when there is a cyanobacteria
in a nitrates poor environment - they can get nitrogen
needed in biological processes to fix amino-acids from
gaseous form and other bacteria and plant need nitrates
or ammonia since they are unable to fix nitrogen from air.
Pszemol
> Stoutman wrote on 9/16/2006 12:20 PM:
>> It is a VERY complex series of events.
>
> Actually it's very simple. Just as we consume oxygen, so
> do many types of bacteria. When oxygen levels get low,
> bacteria start taking oxygen away from compounds in the
> water such as nitrate, nitrite, sulfate, and many other
> compounds.
or cyanobacteria consumes free nitrogen where other
algae or bacteria consume nitrates or ammonia.
Stoutman
>> DENITRIFICATION. It is an enzymatic process that converts NO3- into H2O
>> and N2 (O2 is NOT produced).
>
> And, once more, H2O is NOT produced. It is merely a carrier.
If water is not produced than water is a carrier for what?
Stoutman
>> bacteria?
>
> That's its food.
>
This is a good one. You think oxygen is food for the ANAEROBIC bacteria.
Hmmm...
Stoutman
>> produced. What happens to the oxygen? Where do you/he think it goes?
>> Do you think it stays in the enzyme?
>
> Not enzyme. Bacteria. Yes, that's exactly what happens. The oxygen is
> consumed by the bacteria.
First:
These denitrifying bacteria are anaerobic. They thrive in LOW oxygen
conditions. Anoxic conditions are required for their survival. This means
they do not need nor do they consume oxygen to survive. Why do you insist
that anaerobic bacteria involved in denitrification consume oxygen? Oxygen
is a TOXIN for most anaerobic bacteria. They do not produce nor consume
oxygen. Anaerobic bacteria can not even grow in the presence of oxygen.
Second:
Oxygen is NOT produced. The end result biproducts of nitrate metabolism by
denitrifying bacteria are N2 and H2O.
I am not guessing here.
nitrogen cycle:
http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/articles/2002/nitrogencycle.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrification
Stoutman
>
> You stated that hydrogen combines with oxygen from the NO3 to produce H2O.
> When asked where the hydrogen comes from, you stated that the "enzymes"
> produce it from water.
No, what I wrote was that the H+ come from general acids located within the
enzymes active site. Do you know what a general acid is in this context?
If not I will explain it to you.
>The only way they could do that is to strip oxygten atoms off the water
>molecules.
Wrong. The H+ source comes from protonated amino acid residues (general
acids) located in the enzymes active site.
This might help: H+ doesn't really exist in an aqueous environment, it
exists as H3O+. This is the protonated form of water.
There are other things (molecules) in nature that can be protonated, not
just water.
For example some amino acids have basic amine side chains that will be
protonated at any given time. They can and do serve as the source of H+ in
the active site of an enzyme.
I don't expect everyone to understand this stuff, but ...
>
>> Still wrong. Water is produced here.
>
> Not possible.
Uggg.
Stoutman
>> produced. What happens to the oxygen? Where do you/he think it goes?
>> Do you think it stays in the enzyme?
>
> Not enzyme. Bacteria. Yes, that's exactly what happens. The oxygen is
> consumed by the bacteria.
This might help your confusion:
When you state that oxygen is consumed by the bacteria in the
denitrification process where does it end up? where does it go? what form
does it take?
If your answer is not H2O you need to do more reading.
Wayne Sallee
water.
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
Wa...@WaynesPets.com
Wayne Sallee
medium, with good water movement growing well with lot's
of oxygen, and lot's of nitrates, and then you were to
seal it off from fresh oxygen and there was plenty of food
there for the bacteria to continue growing, how long do
you think it would take for the nitrates to reach 0 nitrates?
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
Wa...@WaynesPets.com
Wayne Sallee
call oxygen food for us, but the oxygen has to be taken in
since it's not after the nitrogen except for growth.
Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets
Wa...@WaynesPets.com
Stoutman
> Though I would not call it food, any more than I would
> call oxygen food for us, but the oxygen has to be taken in since it's not
> after the nitrogen except for growth.
What do you mean by "taken in"? What happens to the oxygen?
What part of : 2NO3 +12H+ ---enzymatic----> N2 + 6H2O do you not
understand? I gave provided two web site literature sources for you to
read that support MY claims. Do you need more?
I see 6 oxygens on the left and 6 oxygens expelled on the right. How are
they "taken in"? I can't wait for your answer to this.
Stoutman
> for us, but the oxygen has to be taken in since it's not after the
> nitrogen except for growth.
One more thing since you bring up human cellular respiration. We breath in
oxygen, do we "take it in"? Or do we use it for cellular repiration and
expell the oxygen in the form of CO2?
us (aerobic respiration)
C6H12O6 + 6O2 ----> 6CO2 + 6H2O (+ ENERGY (ATP)) <-----NO
OXYGEN "taken in"
anaerobic denitrifying bacteria:
2NO3- + 12H+ -------> N2 + 6H2O + (ENERGY) <-------NO
OXYGEN "taken in"
Pszemol
>> You were questioning the reason to change water
>> based on nitrates...
>
> I am not questioning anything, I am answering Adam's (the OP) question.
> See above in the thread.
You clearly point to relation between high nitrates and need for water change:
"Contrary to popular marine aquarium lore, you DO NOT NEED to do partial
water changes. My nitrites and nitrates are UNDETECTABLE using store
bought LFS test kits."
and here:
"If something causes your nitrites and nitrates to be very low than
why would you NEED to do a water change? Just for fun?"
Nitrates is not the reason for a water change.
>>>> You know, there are much more different ions there
>>>> beside NO3-...
>>>
>>> Yes, I am aware.
>>
>> Then you are probably aware also, that 80% of their
>> levels you cannot measure at home acuratelly.
>
> 80% of what levels? Can you be more specific? Doesn't how
> accurate you need to be depend on the ion you are referring to?
Out of the all ionic compounds in the sea waters only
small parts can be measured with aquarium test kits.
You can test carbonate hardness/alkalinity, calcium,
magnesium, nitrates, phosphates, couple of others with
questionable reliablity and that is it.
The rest of ions are just one big question mark.
You do not know how much are taken out and built into
corals and other invertebrate bodies, you do not know
how much is left there available in the water.
>>>>With partial water change you replenish
>>>> ions used up by growing animals/plants in your tank.
>>>
>>> I add trace elements (Kent Marine Essential Elements) on a monthly basis.
>>
>> Each element is used up in a different speed, but you dump
>> all of them on a monthly basis regardless if you need it or not.
>
> How do you replenish your trace elements? Partial water change? When you
> do your partial water change you are removing some percentage of water
> (15-20%?) and adding artificial sea salt (usually contains trace elements).
> How do you know your tank needs it (trace elements)?
When I am replacing partial water in my tank I am removing
some water with bad ionic proportion and replace is with
known to be good ionic composition water. Overall effect
is that the resulting mixture has ionic combination more
similar to natural sea water than an old tank water had...
>> That will lead over time to chemical imbalance and your tank
>> water will be far, far away from the content of natural sea water
>> compared to the water mixed from the fresh salt mix.
>
> You are FAR MORE likely to cause a chemical imbalance by replacing a
> percentage (15-20%?) of your aquarium water with home made sea water
> than you are by doing no water change.
Can you present some reasoning behind this odd statement ?
>>>> You also remove organic byproducts your skimmer left behind.
>>>
>>> Such as?
>>
>> All these which make your water smell and look yellow.
>> Corals, other invertebrates, fish and plants constantly
>> release many substances to the water which accumulate
>> in the closed system like an aquarium.
>
> My skimmer runs 24hrs a day. The organic compounds it doesn't remove on the
> first pass will more than likely be removed on the second, third, fourth or
> fifth, etc. pass.
How about these which do not stick to the foam at all ?
No matter how many times water will pass through the
skimmer...
>>You are not able to measure them or detect them in home situation...
>
> Agreed. Therefore, I have NO reason to question my skimmers effectiveness.
> I can only go by the health/appearance of my tank mates. They are doing
> fine. All is well. My water is not yellow and it does not smell.
I would like to know more about your tank.
Its volume, quantinty and size of fish, other living
critters and plants/algae, amount of live rock, lights etc.
Would you be so nice and tell us more about your tank ?
And how can you tell your water is not yellow?
Have you poured it to a white plastic bucket and
compared its color to R/O water in a similar bucket?
I do not know a skimmer which removes all organics in 100%.
>> Changing water refreshes the water and brings it back
>> to its original ionic combination...
>
> The only way YOU would "bring it back to its original" condition is if you
> changed 100% of your water. Is this what you are doing? If this is what
> you are doing you are doing more harm than good.
No, I am not replacing 100% of water in my reef tank,
I do it in my grow up tanks for my baby maroon clowns.
And of course it is true - it would be 100% in original
condition only if replaced in 100%, but if you replace
only 20-30% than the water is more similar to the original
ionic composition than the old water before the change.
Do you agree ?
>> Would you be fine if your house was perfectly sealed
>> from the outside air and you just reduce amount of
>> CO2 and add oxygen on regular basis but would not
>> exchange air for years?
>
> Another straw man.
>
>>How do you think your house would smell ? :-))
>
> I do not have microorganisms that eat and decompose
> my excrements, my aquarium inhabitants do.
I would like to duplicate this perfect bilogical balance
you have in your tank. It sounds almost magical...
Can't wait to learn more about your tank and see how
you managed to get is so perfectly ballanced it does
not require water change.
In my opinion it would require very high biodiversity
with right amount of fish, invertebrates, plants/algae
working in perfect balance without algae taking over
the tank or fish pooping too much plants can process...
Such a balanced micro-ecosystem would be a dream of
all aquarists. So please do not delay and tell us
about your amazing tank.
Wayne Sallee
>The only way YOU would "bring it back to its original"
>condition is if you
>changed 100% of your water. Is this what you are doing?
>If this is what
>you are doing you are doing more harm than good.
Actually every time you buy something at the store, and
take it home, you are giving it a 100% water change.
Also get rid of the no archive nonsense. What are you
afraid someone will read it later and see how stupid you are?