My first marine fish is ill - HELP

[Andy Barnes]

I set up my 70 gallon marine FO tank just over 6 weeks and all levels seem
to be as they should be. I bought my first marine fish (a Tomato Clown)
yesterday morning and put him in my tank. He seemed extremely nervous and
went and hid behind some rock straight away and stayed there all day. When
I looked this morning - I thought he was dead on the surface. I put the
blue light on (not the bright daylight one as well) and the next thing he
was down the bottom hiding - wasn't sure but he seemed to have a problem
with balance.

Checked later and he is on the surface and seems to have problems with
balance - and looks like fish bladder problem. He is not gulping air at the
surface.

I wonder if my tank levels are good enough - or whether he might have been
damaged on capture? The fish was reserved for a month for me at my LFS, but
the store catch the fish using a net - could his swim bladder be damaged?
Is there anything i can do except hope?

Please help if you can as I don't want to lose him if I can avoid it in any
way.

Andy Barnes
aba...@clockworkdog.co.uk

[Glenn R. Holmes]

Hi Andy.
What method did you use to acclimatize him to your tank?
Glenn

[Chris Alonzo]

I had similar problems when acclimating my fish from a particular LFS. It
turned out that the pH of the LFS was 7.4 and my tank was 8.2. The drop in pH
causes the ammonium in the fish's body to turn to ammonia which is toxic. If
you don't have any of the water left from the bag to test the pH, ask the LFS to
test it or go back and test it yourself. If its an emergency try putting some
of your water in a separate container and lowering the pH (use a few drops of
vinegar if you have no other way) and putting the fish in their for a while. If
this seems to work, you will need to lower the pH of your whole tank (assuming
you have no other tank) and slowly raise the pH (no more than .2 per day).

Chris

[sco...@webtv.net]

Is he all alone?
Give him some company---anything

[Andy Barnes]

I immersed the bag for 20 minutes before opening, but I now realise that I
allowed the water-exchange after that to happen to quickly - i.e. over a 3
minute period instead of another 20 mins.

Andy
Glenn R. Holmes <grh...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:39EDFA85...@attglobal.net...
> Hi Andy.
> What method did you use to acclimatize him to your tank?

[Andy Barnes]

My PH is 8.5. I have thought that it should be slightly lower than this.
The tap-water in my area is about 8.5. I have spoken to my LFS about this
and they say that I should leave it at 8.5 and that using anything to lower
the PH could have drastic unpredictable effect on the amount that the PH
reduces by.

I have every reason to believe that my LFS is excellent in many ways since
they have a huge marine setup, a huge freshwater tropical and coldwater.
They are well established, but I have heard that it is best to catch fish in
a container and not in a net. My LFS use nets and then put the fish in a
water filled bag, topped off with oxygen.

Andy

Chris Alonzo <dev...@novell.com> wrote in message
news:39EDFB44...@novell.com...

> I had similar problems when acclimating my fish from a particular LFS. It
> turned out that the pH of the LFS was 7.4 and my tank was 8.2. The drop
in pH
> causes the ammonium in the fish's body to turn to ammonia which is toxic.
If
> you don't have any of the water left from the bag to test the pH, ask the
LFS to
> test it or go back and test it yourself. If its an emergency try putting
some
> of your water in a separate container and lowering the pH (use a few drops
of
> vinegar if you have no other way) and putting the fish in their for a
while. If
> this seems to work, you will need to lower the pH of your whole tank
(assuming
> you have no other tank) and slowly raise the pH (no more than .2 per day).
>
> Chris
>

[Andy Barnes]

He seems to be slightly better now - still near or on surface and
occasionally swims down a bit, just a bit more active. He's been in the
tank for 36 hours now. Could some of his trouble be shock? Could a tank
mate improve things?

Thanks in advance.

Andy

<sco...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:2929-39E...@storefull-223.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

[Andy Barnes]

Totally - it's a fairly large tank and it might sound silly - but on top of
everything else; shock of being moved, acclimatising to new conditions,
etc., could he be missing some sort of other fish life??

[tangster]

Id add some cheap non-aggressive company and a little
extra conditioner(slime coat)

[Andy Barnes]

I was worried with such a new tank that the loading on it would be too much
at once. Am I right in assuming from what people are saying, that fish
prefer company?

Thanks

Andy

tangster <tangt...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:2373-39E...@storefull-222.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

[Chris Alonzo]

Well, if your fish is doing better, he will probably make it. However, I have
always heard that 8.4 is the highest the pH should ever go.

One correction to my previous email is that it is the sudden rise in pH that is
the problem. For future reference, I would check the pH of the water that the
fish were living in before adding it to the tank. Most LFS pH is between
8.0-8.2. If it was 8.0 and yours 8.5, that is 0.3 more than fish can handle
without stress.

My skunk clowns routinely 'play dead' near the surface and swim down when I come
close. So, I guess it could be that nothing is wrong, if this is the behavior
you see. Possibly a tank mate in this case would make it swim more.

Chris

[DefLizard]

When you test your LFS's water, test it with your own pH test kit, and
have the LFS use his to test yours, sort of: 'this is mine, lets see
yours? ;)) I have found test kits in general, very innacurate and
unreliable, unless you have a lab grade refractometer! Ciao!

Re: My first marine fish is ill - HELP
Help
Group: rec.aquaria.marine.misc Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000, 10:52pm (PDT+7)
From: dev...@novell.com (Chris Alonzo)

http://community.webtv.net/deflizard/doc
regards, John

[Lis-n-Kev]

something to keep in mind is that some saltwater fish (and it varies with the
type of fish) sleep. Sleep like they were dead. They literally lie down on
the bottom of the tank and turn white. It can be very disconcerning if you are
not used to it. I have not seen my Maroon Clown sleep like that, but I have seen
Perculas and Damsels, tangs, butterflies, and triggers exhibit this behavior.

I would think that it would stress the fish less if it did not have tankmates
right now. Anyone else agree?

K.

[Andy Barnes]

Thanks guys. Checked this morning (UK 8am) after a night with the lights
out and the situation looks bad. He really seems to be struggling on the
surface - it looks like swim bladder. Will any number of factors cause
these signs?

I understood that PH should be between 8.0 and 8.2. My LFS says that 8.5 is
fine and that no attempt should be made to lower it. My wife called in to
the store last night and they told her not to do anything. Can vinegar
work? If so - in what quantity, gallon ratios etc?

I think I'm going to lose him and I feel terrible.

Andy

Chris Alonzo <dev...@novell.com> wrote in message

news:39EE2975...@novell.com...

[Andy Barnes]

`It's a funny old game' as they say!

My Tomato clown (first marine fish) has been in the tank for 48 hours and is
still hanging in there.

I started to do a 1/3rd water change and he started swimming around (maybe
the disruption). I have now topped the tank back up and he's swimming
around and no sign of the `swim bladder' trouble, which I guess is obviously
not swim bladder. Strange behaviour, but he looks much perkier. Maybe
things will work out fine. I do hope so - I have taken a shine to the
little fish!

Thanks to all of you who offered your kind advice.

Andy Barnes
aba...@clockworkdog.co.uk

[Chris Alonzo]

As I stated in my previous email, it is the rise in pH that is the problem, not
just the current value.

As Def Lizzard mentioned, test the pH of the LFS water first with your own test
kit to see if it is indeed a lot lower than 8.5.

You can ask the LFS to take the fish back and hold it for you until you can
adjust the pH.

If they won't, maybe you can get a gallon of water from the same LFS, rather
than attempting to adjust the pH of your tank too quickly . Put the fish in and
aerate the water to see if he gets better. You will have to also use a heater
or float the container in your tank to stabilize the temperature. You won't be
able to keep in a gallon of water too long, so you still need to lower the pH of
your own tank.

Any time you adjust pH, you really need to wait 24 hours to make sure it is
stable.

A better way than vinegar if you have time is using Proper pH 8.2. Vinegar is
just for emergencies. The only time I used vinegar (Pure Distilled 5% White
Vinegar), I used only about a 1/4 teaspoon per gallon.

Chris

[Glenn R. Holmes]

Andy.
I believe that your fish is suffering from PH shock.
You put it in way too quickly. You should drip it in, a process which takes
about 2 hours give or take. If you do not have anyone to describe it to you,
email me and I will email the instructions. Normal symptons is the fish gets
sick and usually dies in about 18 hours. There are exceptions as always. I had
an eel goby that I sold to an LFS. He just dropped it into his system, I was
furious. The goby was tough though and it survived.
Glenn

Andy Barnes wrote:

> I immersed the bag for 20 minutes before opening, but I now realise that I
> allowed the water-exchange after that to happen to quickly - i.e. over a 3
> minute period instead of another 20 mins.
>
> Andy
> Glenn R. Holmes <grh...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:39EDFA85...@attglobal.net...
> > Hi Andy.

> > What method did you use to acclimatize him to your tank?

[bry...@uiuc.edu]

Every night when the lights go out my ocellaris swims on his side in
the top left corner and looks like he's on his last leg. But he is
actually sleeping ;). If he is doing a similar thing only at night,
maybe he is just sleeping too. I would give him some time, it sounds
like you are doing everything ok. Or perhaps the way he was captured
(cyanide?) or shipped has something to do with it.

-Bryman

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 04:14:27 GMT, Lis-n-Kev <L-Schel...@neiu.edu>
wrote:

[Andy Barnes]

Bryman

I think you must be right. He's now been in there for over three days and
has fed yesterday and today. Yesterday he swam round the tank like he was
having fun all day. Then very very late last night he started his lying on
his side business again. Came down this morning and he was still doing it.
He's spent most of today swimming near the surface but doesn't seem stuck
there! He's had some flake food today and was quite keen(yesterday he had
frozen brine shrimp).

As I said before - this is my first step into marine fish and have only ever
kept cold and tropical freshwater. The behaviour appears very different.
If a freshwater fish exhibited some of this behaviour, I would expect to see
it dead within three or four hours. It's just a bit unnerving at first!

I'm keen to give him some company - so he doesn't get too lonely. The tank
is quite big for one small tomate clown. My LFS has some young regal
tangs - about 1" in length at the moment. I would like to get one of those,
but maybe I should wait another four or five days to make sure that
everything is okay. Do you think that's best?

Best rgds

Andy
<bry...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:39f01e2c...@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu...

[Glenn R. Holmes]

Hi.
Yep. I have fish that sleep on their sides also.
I still think you should re-evaluate how you introduce your fish to your system
quite seriously. Please consider this advice. It will save you fish deaths. The
sudden change in PH is very harmful and more often fatal to Marine Fish. I also
"drip" in any and all inverts that I get.

Glenn

[Andy Barnes]

Hi Glen

I do take your advice on this - I think you mentioned in a previous post
about this. I realise that in any case the `water exchange' from bag to
tank and vice versa should have been more gradual. If you are able to email
me your advice then I'd be much obliged. Just send it to
aba...@clockworkdog.co.uk. Send me a couple of pics of your tank if you
have any.

Thanks.

Andy

Glenn R. Holmes <grh...@attglobal.net> wrote in message

news:39F091F2...@attglobal.net...

[bry...@uiuc.edu]

Andy,
I wouldnt worry too much about the loneliness of your clown yet, by
not having other fish to harass it, it will settle down more quickly.
As for regal tangs, they are quite gorgeous, but unfortunately not
very hardy (succeptable to ick) and require great water quality. My
LFS had a tank of little ones also and over the course of a few months
many of them died =(. You can try to introduce one of these but you
may run into problems with such a new tank. Also, stay away from any
kind of angelfish until the tank has been running for at least 6
months. I would recommend a royal gramma to you for a good beginner
fish. I have one in my nanoreef and I love him. Really gorgeous
colors, very hardy, not very aggressive, relatively cheap price, and
interesting behavior especially if you have live rock. They can
orient themselves at any position in rocks and it is really cool to
see. Mine sleeps in his favorite hole upsidown and when I go up to
the tank he darts out and looks at me. There are also a lot of other
cool hardy fish you could try, like lionfish and damsels.

-Bryman

[June Sanderson]

Hi

I have two clownfish and one of them sleeps on his side on top of one of the
powerheads, I have also seen him lying on his side on one of the powerhead
power cable and using it like a hammock.

regards

ju...@sanderson2000.worldonline.co.uk

<bry...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:39f01e2c...@news-proxy.cso.uiuc.edu...
> Every night when the lights go out my ocellaris swims on his side in
> the top left corner and looks like he's on his last leg. But he is
> actually sleeping ;). If he is doing a similar thing only at night,
> maybe he is just sleeping too. I would give him some time, it sounds
> like you are doing everything ok. Or perhaps the way he was captured
> (cyanide?) or shipped has something to do with it.
>
> -Bryman
>
>
>

> On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 04:14:27 GMT, Lis-n-Kev <L-Schel...@neiu.edu>
> wrote:
>