Adding Salt to a tank Question
John Allds
I changed 30-40% of my water yesterday. I added the new water and
forgot to add the salt ..! Can I safely add the salt now to the
tank, or do I have to add it to the water before it goes in the tank??
I only have 2 Damsels it now, and the Specific Gravity is around 1.015
Thanks
John
ben...@ix.netcom.com
I'd make a highly concentrated salt mix, and add it very slowly (maybe
over a day or so, i.e. a little every hour or so.) You may not have to
be that slow but it couldn't hurt if the fish aren't stressing already.
You may shock them more by suddently bring the s.g. up at once. I
definitely wouldn't add it directly to the tank because of all the
undisolved particles that would be floating around. At least get it
dissolved at a much higher concentration and add a little, and if you
need to remove a little water first. Just a thought.
michael t marrone
You can bring down the level of salt in the tank and the fish will
have no problem. The level of salt doesn't have to be high, in my
tanks the level are about 1.014 and the fish are doing great. The only
problem is when adding new fish the level that the new fish is comming
from will probably be high then your tank so you have to slowly
interduce the new fish or it will stress out until it becomes acustom
with the level of salt in the tank.
In most pet shop the level of salt is low and the fish are doing find.
You can even bring your saltwater fish completly down to freshwater as
I have seen a number of aquairum do this and the fish where find.
Christian
John Allds wrote:
>
>
> I changed 30-40% of my water yesterday. I added the new water and
> forgot to add the salt ..! Can I safely add the salt now to the
> tank, or do I have to add it to the water before it goes in the tank??
>
> I only have 2 Damsels it now, and the Specific Gravity is around 1.015
>
> Thanks
>
> John
Hi,
Are your damsels still alive??? I know that some damsels can live in
brackish water, but even those need a specific gravity of at least
1.018.
Normally, you have to add the salt to the water at least one week before
you put it into your tank. You should never add salt directly to your
tank.
However, in your situation, you should probably slowly change something
like 40% of your water with water that has a specific gravity higher
than 1.024 so that in the end the specific gravity will be between 1.022
and 1.024 again. Take three or four hours to do so, otherwise it can be
fatal for your fishes (if they are still alive by now.)
Christian
GPPancerev
>In most pet shop the level of salt is low and the fish are doing find.
>You can even bring your saltwater fish completly down to freshwater as
>I have seen a number of aquairum do this and the fish where find.
>
IMHO, This is really bad advice. Most saltwater fish will not survive under
these conditions.
Greg
GPPancerev
>Normally, you have to add the salt to the water at least one week before
>you put it into your tank.
Most people I know don't wait a week. A day or two is usually sufficient.
Greg
michael t marrone
gppan...@aol.com (GPPancerev) wrote:
>Greg
Just because the back of the salt box saz to keep the salt at a higher
level then is needed doesn't mean the level show be keep at what they
say. If the tank is just fish only a lower level of salt can be
maintain in the tank without any problems as long as you bring the
level of salt down slow not all at once.
ben...@ix.netcom.com
For what its worth:
Saltwater fish and freshwater fish are designed differently to handle
their natural environmet, particularly the effects of osmosis.
Freshwater fish are constantly taking in water through osmosis and so
have to compensate by passing out large volumes of water through their
kidneys. Saltwater fish have the opposite problem, they are constantly
losing water to the enviroment and so have to take in large quantities
of water to compensate. As a result their kidneys produce much higher
concentrated, and much lower volume of output. This would indicate
that if you put a saltwater fish in freshwater it could probably handle
it for awhile (if it were done slowly), but I would venture a guess that
if you did a fish autoposy when it finally died it would die of kidney
failure becausee its kidneys were not designed for that much throughput.
GPPancerev
Michael,
Perhaps SOME fish would survive at severely reduced salt levels as you suggest,
but why would I want to do such a thing as to try to acclimatize a saltwater
fish to fresh water? Just to save a few dollars on salt? Not me.
Natural seawater has a s.g. of approximately 1.024. This has nothing to do with
reading the back of a box. Some knowledgable sources have suggested that
lowering s.g. to 1.022 or even 1.020 may be beneficial to many marine fish...
but that is a long way from fresh water (1.000). I have never seen any book,
nor heard any knowledable person recommend putting any marine fish in fresh
water (except maybe mollies). IMHO, fresh water will kill many, if not most
marine fish. Those that survive will be severely stressed and most likely lead
shorter lives. Certainly, I wouldn't want to do that.
Luckily, damsels are pretty tough little guys, and hopefully John's damsels
will survive.
You have stated that many pet stores keep their marine fish in fresh water. In
what country? Do you know this for a fact or is it just something that you
heard? I am very skeptical of your claim. In my local area, the stores where I
buy my fish keep their s.g. in the range of 1.020 to 1.025
I would be interested if you have any references to support your claims.
Greg.
michael t marrone
I didn't say that most petshop keep their saltwater fish in freshwater
but that their level of salt in their tank is low. You can see this
when they either put a goldfish or a minnow in the tank to feed a fish
and the goldfish or minnow is still swinning around, if not eaten, for
sometime. In the sea the levels of salt vary from place to place and
from depth to depth sea water fish can adjust very easily to lower
levels of salt if they are bought down slowly and the fish will live
just as long as if the level was higher. As long as the environment
is stable, Ph, Nitrates etc, the fish will not be stressed out and
will live along life.
Howard Roy
The difference between marine fishes and freshwater fishes is that, the
former have to constantly drink water to replenish the water loss due to
osmosis (water molecules tend to go from high concentration area to low
concentration area), while the latter need to constantly excrete water
from their body to get rid of the excess water.
True, marine fishes can survive in a low salinity environment, and in
fact, when you first introduce marine fishes into an aquarium, it's a
better idea to lower the salinity within reason (1.019 to 1.020 SG) to
reduce the water loss stress of the fish, however in established
aquariums, the salinity should be slowly increase back to the normal
natural sea level.
Pet shops keep their marine fish in low salinity environment is to help to
reduce the stress the fishes already have, thus maintain a higher survival
rate for their livestocks. In home aquarium, unless you're keeping a FO
tank, otherwise many invertebrates are quite sensitive to the salinity
level, and cannot survive in a low salinity enviroment in long term.
Lastly, I've seen many times that freshwater feeder fishes and feeder
ghost shrimps can survive in salt water (my cousin managed to keep a
feeder ghost shrimp in his marine aquarium for over 1 week), yet again,
don't expect they'll be happy or survive long in such environment.
Poseidon
What's up, mar...@pipeline.com (michael t marrone), you wrote in
rec.aquaria.marine.misc:
>gppan...@aol.com (GPPancerev) wrote:
>
>>>In most pet shop the level of salt is low and the fish are doing find.
>>>You can even bring your saltwater fish completly down to freshwater as
>>>I have seen a number of aquairum do this and the fish where find.
>>>
>
>>IMHO, This is really bad advice. Most saltwater fish will not survive under
>>these conditions.
>
>>Greg
>
>Just because the back of the salt box saz to keep the salt at a higher
>level then is needed doesn't mean the level show be keep at what they
>say. If the tank is just fish only a lower level of salt can be
>maintain in the tank without any problems as long as you bring the
>level of salt down slow not all at once.
>
Not meaning to be rude, but do you have any clue what you are talking
about?
First of all: I'd like to hear you justify that in most pet shops, the
salinity is lower than NSW. The store I work at certianly doesn't.
Second of all: If the fish live in an SG of 1.023, then we should give
them that SG.
Third: Saltwater fish are SALTWATER. They will not survive in
freshwater (let's exclude salmonids because I doubt they are the fish
in question anyway) because their osmotic processes are totally
different. I think you might be thinking of brackish fish. These fish
can tolerate salt water and fresh water, but prefer an sg of about
1.005-7.
If you really want to be believed, tell us how much you change the
salinity by each day, what kind of fish, the starting and ending
salinity, and the temperature.
_________
__/Poseidon /___________________________________________
Wer hat auf meinen breif an oma "hilfe ich bin eine fliege" geschrieben?
Offenbar eine fliege. Wie seltsam.
ICQ#=1877532
ChannelOP, #fish on Undernet AKA pleco
Founder, #fishchat on Dalnet
michael t marrone
pose...@together.removethis.net (Poseidon) wrote:
First of all the level of salt at most pet shop that I have been to is
usally lower then you would have in your tank at home. I also have
been to and work for many wholesalers and there levels are lower also.
This is usally to the volume of fish that they are shipping and the
amount of water leaving their system daily. All you have to do at a
pet shop is look at how long a gold fish last in a salt water tank if
it last for a while the level of salt is low. You will probably notice
that the fish are doing well. You will probaby also no that in
different parts of the ocean the Ph, temp and salt levels are
different and you can mix fishs and they live very well.
A level of about 1.012-1.015 is find and will not have any bad effects
on the fish. What I was saying about bring salt water fish down to
fish water can be done. It usally is done over a 24 hours period and
if you go to Busch Garden in Tampa you will see a large outdoor
tank/pond where they did you that, unfornually it was many years ago
and I don't remeber the fish that did it with.
ThrdCoastM
So, after all that, are the damsels still with us?
John Allds
On 13 Dec 1997 21:16:38 GMT, thrdc...@aol.com (ThrdCoastM) wrote:
>So, after all that, are the damsels still with us?
Nope....one died last night. Was a Domino, But the other seems to be
just fine. He is 3 times the size of the Domino. I have slowly been
adding Saltwater to the tank. It is now up to .017
Thanks
John
Bob and Terri Odenweller
Or even just overnight. Once the particles are dissolved, and the
correct Ph and temperature are reached, there is no reason to wait.
Bob
Poseidon
The SG is normal where I work.
> You will probably notice
>that the fish are doing well. You will probaby also no that in
>different parts of the ocean the Ph, temp and salt levels are
>different and you can mix fishs and they live very well.
Yes. But it's still not really a good idea to keep marine fish ment
for a SG of 1.025 in 1.010 or something like that. Acclimation or not,
you can't acclimate fishes osmotic processes (once again, excluding
salmonids). You can have a "freshwater" moray eel, but eventually it
will die because when it grows up it needs salt water.
And the thing about the wholesalers, why do you think fish come into
stores from the wholesaler looking like crap sometimes? It's probably
related to the low SG. I'll ask my boss to test the sg of some of the
wholesalers water sometime.
>
>A level of about 1.012-1.015 is find and will not have any bad effects
>on the fish. What I was saying about bring salt water fish down to
>fish water can be done. It usally is done over a 24 hours period and
>if you go to Busch Garden in Tampa you will see a large outdoor
>tank/pond where they did you that, unfornually it was many years ago
>and I don't remeber the fish that did it with.
>
_________
SSeely
Are you tired of not being able to identify that miserable algae that's been
driving you insane ? I know I am, along with I don't know how many other
hundreds of people. I would like to change all that by making a web page with
photos of all the undesirable algaes. But, in order for this to happen I need
your help, I need photos. So if you have unwanted algae and a camera (weather
you know what type it is or not) here's your chance to help others (along with
yourself if you don't know what type of algae you have). I've searched the web
high and low to no avail, there just doesn’t seem to be any pictures out there
and I would like to change that, with your help. I have a true 720 dpi color
flat bed scanner that turns out really nice images from good pics.
E-mail me for an address
SSe...@aol.com
Steve Seely
So what do you think people, is a pictorial database of this type needed ?
Christian
Poseidon wrote:
> Yes. But it's still not really a good idea to keep marine fish ment
> for a SG of 1.025 in 1.010 or something like that. Acclimation or not,
> you can't acclimate fishes osmotic processes (once again, excluding
> salmonids). You can have a "freshwater" moray eel, but eventually it
> will die because when it grows up it needs salt water.
There are more fish than salmonids that can live in freshwater as well
as in saltwater. These include scats, monos and columbian sharkcatfish
(arius seemani). But even those have to be kept in brackish water once
they are older. Keeping these animals in freshwater for a longer time
will cause an early death to them.
As far as "freshwater" moray eels are concerned, they really shouldn't
be kept in freshwater at all. They simply won't eat anything in
freshwater and will eventually die. Brackish water with a density of
around 1.010 or more is acceptable for long-term health, but keeping
them in a marine tank is probably best.
However, like I said before, there are a few damselfish that can
actually live in brackish or even freshwater sometimes and do so in
nature as well. These include Stegastes otophorus, Neopomacentrus
taeniurus,Pomacentrus taeniometopon and Abudefduf saxatilis. They really
can be kept in a brackish water tank with a density of around 1.018 for
long term health.
Christian
Quinn C. Horn
michael t marrone wrote:
> First of all the level of salt at most pet shop that I have been to is
> usally lower then you would have in your tank at home. I also have
> been to and work for many wholesalers and there levels are lower also.
> This is usally to the volume of fish that they are shipping and the
> amount of water leaving their system daily. All you have to do at a
> pet shop is look at how long a gold fish last in a salt water tank if
> it last for a while the level of salt is low. You will probably notice
> that the fish are doing well. You will probaby also no that in
> different parts of the ocean the Ph, temp and salt levels are
> different and you can mix fishs and they live very well.
Michael, you are absolutely correct that many pet shops keep their
salinity levels unnaturally low. However, I have seen very few pet
store set-ups that I would like to duplicate at home. For the most
part, pet stores design their systems for the SHORT TERM keeping of
marine life. Many of the stores I have been to keep the salinity low
because it is cheaper and because it does not appear to have a SHORT
TERM effect on the fishes health. Many of the common methods that your
LFS employ are not good fish keeping practices (keeping unnaturally high
copper levels, feeding one kind of generic flake food, etc...) You
should not attempt to duplicate the set-up at your LFS, you should
strive for better.
> A level of about 1.012-1.015 is find and will not have any bad effects
> on the fish.
Please give us a reference for this statement. Did you read this
somewhere or is it from your own experience? When I add a fish to my
aquarium, I intend for that fish to live AT LEAST as long as it would in
nature. Are you certain that keeping a fish in water that is
approximately half natural salt water concentrations is not going to
have long term effects?
> What I was saying about bring salt water fish down to
> fish water can be done.
Certainly, I do not doubt that it can be done. But how long will that
fish live? If a salt water fish lives for five years in your fresh water
aquarium but could have lived for fifty years in an aquarium with
natural salinity levels, then your set-up is unacceptable.
I strongly suggest you read the article in November's Aquarium Frontiers
by Ronald Shimmek, Ph.D. The article is titled "What are Natural Reef
Salinities and Temperatures…Really…and Does It Matter?" and can be found
at the following URL:
http://www.aquariumfrontiers.com/1997/nov/features/1/default.htm
I look forward to your reading your comments regarding this article.
Best Regards,
Quinn
--
Quinn C. Horn
Graduate Student - Metallurgical Engineering
Michigan Technological University
email: qch...@mtu.edu; fax: (906) 487-2934