Beginner's mistake (long post)
Stuart Teo
should have surfed the web and read newsgroup postings before I started.
Like some beginners, I bought myself a minute plastic tank which could hold
about 1 gallon of water. I had 10 fishes inside it, 5 of each species. I
later found out that I had 5 zebra danios and 5 tetra black widow.
Still without reading & surfing, I changed to an 8 gallon tank. I added
sand (gravel?), a corner filter which operates on an airpump, an airpump
with an airstone attached. All because it was fun to do things for my tank.
What's gravel? Is the coarse sand I added also known as gravel?
The corner filter is a really simple mechanism which has activated charcoal
at the bottom and fine wool-like mesh on top.
I added another 5 tetra black neons & 5 tetra serpae & 1 peppered pleco.
Then I started discovering newsgroups & websites about tropical fishes as
pets. I started learning about ammonia/ammonium, nitrites and nitrates.
Since I have basic engineering training, these stuff makes sense to me.
Fine.
Following that, I took out my goldfish and put it in its own tank since they
don't fit with each other.
I added a thermometer to my 8 gallon tank. Reads 25 degrees celcius plus
minus 1, everybody's happy. I went to the LFS yesterday and the owner tells
me he doesn't have ammonia/ammonium/nitrite/nitrate test kits coz he never
uses them and he has no problems. He says he only test for pH. Is it
true?!
After checking the characteristics of all my fishes, I think my tank needs
to be pH 6.5 so everybody's happy. Question. Are those pH-up and pH-down
medication harmful to my fishes? Is there a natural way to achieve the pH
value I want? Wonder if litmus paper is cheaper than pH test kits. Will
check it out later.
Question. Is sea/ocean water hard or soft? Have forgotten the definition.
Given it back to my teachers. I know that either hard or soft water
produces a lot of bubbles.
The water in my area has pH 7.0 and is slightly chlorinated. I added this
plant which has arrow-head-like leaves. Is this a mistake?
I have 3 bottles of stuff. 1 bottle is anti-chlorine with no chemical
composition listed - this makes me nervous. What is anti-chlorine normally
made of?
I have another bottle that ways "general disinfectant". In English, it says
it's good for about almost every common problems a fish can have. In
French, it states the chemical composition - which is 3C23H25N2Cl.2H20
Shit. I see a lot of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, chlorine and oxygen but
what the hell is this stuff? Is it safe to add to my tank?!
The 3rd bottle is the most expensive one says it removes chlorine,
chloramines & heavy metals. Buffers pH and reduces stress. What does pH
buffering mean? (I'm not a chemical engineer, I'm a computer engineer)
Contains aloe vera?! Forms protective slime. Creates superior water
quality. Protects mucous & gills. Are such stuff any good to the fish?
Sounds good. But?
I noticed that some of my fishes have torn fins. The problem is I can't
differentiate the difference between torn and rotting. Anyway, is it due to
stress? The tank has been running for 1 month. I do 20% water changes
every 3rd day. Previously, the fishes were losing color. Now it's OK. I
do water changes on every 3rd days coz that's the day they always start to
lose color. I assume the water is stressing them and hence the color loss.
When I do the water change, the color comes back and the appetite returns.
Am I doing the right thing? Will the tank cycle this way?
In my 8 gallon tank, I added about half a teaspoon of salt. Is this good?
I hear it keeps ich/ick away. But I'm worried for my peppered pleco aka
suckermouth catfish(?). I can't get information off the web about my pleco.
Like what pH it likes, what temperature it likes, etc...
I know I started out wrongly, but I'm trying to correct things now. Please
let me know if I'm doing anything wrong!
Larraine Lage
^_^
In article <39095...@news.cyberway.com.sg>,
"Stuart Teo" <hl...@cyberway.com.sg> wrote:
> Trimmed for space> What's gravel? Is the coarse sand I added also
known as gravel?
Although I can't say for certain, it probably isn't considered gravel.
As far as I've ever seen gravel is used to refer to the larger stones.
Use the term substrate. ;p It's easier and refers to everything. Just
make sure the substrate you use is for freshwater or it will screw with
the water and make life for your fish miserable.
> trimmed for space...<
> I added a thermometer to my 8 gallon tank. Reads 25 degrees celcius
plus
> minus 1, everybody's happy. I went to the LFS yesterday and the
owner tells
> me he doesn't have ammonia/ammonium/nitrite/nitrate test kits coz he
never
> uses them and he has no problems. He says he only test for pH. Is it
> true?!
NO!!! You should be testing for everything! Fish stores at best only
keep fish for short periods of time, so any stress placed on the fish
because of frequent water changes is usually solved when the fish are
bought and placed in the home aquarium. It also sounds like the LFS
guy just doesn't care. I worked at a Petland for a month (the WORST
month of my life...) and if that isn't the epitome of callousness, I
don't know what is. If it dies, replace it. Who cares why or how to
avoid it happening. These guys are a dime a dozen to them. Get a
better LFS if you can. <steps down off her soap box> Anyway... But
on personal experience, my tank was having so many problems I was
losing fish left and right and almost gave it all up. I found out
about water quality and testing and I keep up on it now regularly and
haven't had a problem since.
>
> After checking the characteristics of all my fishes, I think my tank
needs
> to be pH 6.5 so everybody's happy. Question. Are those pH-up and pH-
down
> medication harmful to my fishes? Is there a natural way to achieve
the pH
> value I want? Wonder if litmus paper is cheaper than pH test kits.
Will
> check it out later.
Supposedly (and I could be wrong on this, so the rest of you feel free
to correct me) they aren't that effective in the long run because they
don't offer any true buffering capacity which will prevent rapid pH
fluctuations when everything settles. While they are not harmful in
and of themselves, the fluctuations occuring afterwards can really
stress the fish out and leave an opening for disease. Most fish
actually do tolerate different pH's as long as it's stable. My tank is
at 7.4 and I have dwarf gouramies, who are supposed to do better at 7.0
but mine are all happy. In terms of pH testers, I happen to use the
liquid, but I guess it's a matter of personal opinion since there seems
to be some debate on they accuracy.
>
> Question. Is sea/ocean water hard or soft? Have forgotten the
definition.
> Given it back to my teachers. I know that either hard or soft water
> produces a lot of bubbles.
>
Sea water is hard which is why ammonia level maintenance is so crucial
is marine tanks (the ammonia type turns toxic in more alkaline/harder
water)
> The water in my area has pH 7.0 and is slightly chlorinated. I added
this
> plant which has arrow-head-like leaves. Is this a mistake?
>
If my guess is right, you have a sword plant. I love live plants in a
tank. My 29gal. is full of them. Just make sure of the size your
plants are going to grow beforehand. Some plants can grow huge such as
the sword plant, and don't add plants before your tank is finished
cycling, since they compete a little too successfully with the
nitrifying bacteria and it screws up your cycling.
> I have 3 bottles of stuff. 1 bottle is anti-chlorine with no chemical
> composition listed - this makes me nervous. What is anti-chlorine
normally
> made of?
>
All those anti-chlorine/chloramine chemicals contain sodium thiosulfate
which bond with the chlorine/chloramines to a non-toxic compound.
However, this bonding also causes the formation of ammonia, so check
your water ammonia leverls after using it.
> I have another bottle that ways "general disinfectant". In English,
it says
> it's good for about almost every common problems a fish can have. In
> French, it states the chemical composition - which is 3C23H25N2Cl.2H20
> Shit. I see a lot of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, chlorine and oxygen
but
> what the hell is this stuff? Is it safe to add to my tank?!
>
Sorry, can't help you there. I haven't taken biochem yet so I'm at a
loss. And I say, if you don't know what it will do, don't use it.
> The 3rd bottle is the most expensive one says it removes chlorine,
> chloramines & heavy metals. Buffers pH and reduces stress. What
does pH
> buffering mean? (I'm not a chemical engineer, I'm a computer
engineer)
> Contains aloe vera?! Forms protective slime. Creates superior water
> quality. Protects mucous & gills. Are such stuff any good to the
fish?
> Sounds good. But?
>
What is it, Stress Coat? Yes, it is good for your fish and water. I
swear by the stuff. Buffers are chemicals (technically the combination
of an acid or base with a salt) in the water that keeps the pH from
fluctuating to dangerous levels. You want a good amount of buffering
for your water (your current levels can be determined through testing
kits which can be bought at any LFS). As fish and other life in your
tank release carbon dioxide to the water, these combine to form an acid
which will lower the pH of the water, which at low enough levels makes
life miserable or dangerous for everybody. The Aloe is just used as an
emollient for the fish if they happen to lose some of their natural
slime coating. It's all good! ^_^
> I noticed that some of my fishes have torn fins. The problem is I
can't
> differentiate the difference between torn and rotting. Anyway, is it
due to
> stress? The tank has been running for 1 month. I do 20% water
changes
> every 3rd day. Previously, the fishes were losing color. Now it's
OK. I
> do water changes on every 3rd days coz that's the day they always
start to
> lose color. I assume the water is stressing them and hence the color
loss.
> When I do the water change, the color comes back and the appetite
returns.
> Am I doing the right thing? Will the tank cycle this way?
The color loss (and probably fin damage as well) is due to rising
ammonia levels in the water which makes them unhappy (gee, is that an
oversimplification or what?). All you can do is keep doing water
changes, but your tank will have major problems cycling. The smaller
tanks are so hard to maintain because of the smaller amount of water,
all I can tell you is to keep doing what you are doing. If you can,
get a bigger tank and/or filter which will clean the water more often
(the ideal is at least the amount of water in your tank every hour)and
remove ammonia before it reaches toxic levels.
>
> In my 8 gallon tank, I added about half a teaspoon of salt. Is this
good?
> I hear it keeps ich/ick away. But I'm worried for my peppered pleco
aka
> suckermouth catfish(?). I can't get information off the web about my
pleco.
> Like what pH it likes, what temperature it likes, etc...
Salt is good in an aquarium (approx. 1 tblsp./5 gal.) and make sure of
course that it is aquarium salt. Salt helps keep the pressure balance
between the outside water and the internal water in the fish at
liveable proportions so the fish neither absorbs too much water or
dehydrates. Where the catfish are concerned is that they are sensitive
to high levels of salt, such as brackish/marine aquariums). At the
recommended levels, salt in their water is fine.
>
> I know I started out wrongly, but I'm trying to correct things now.
Please
> let me know if I'm doing anything wrong!
We all have to start somewhere! At least you're willing to come out
and ask and improve yourself and that's what counts. But seriously, if
you can, get a bigger tank/filter. It can really make the difference
in the amount of maintenance you're doing. It is more money initially,
but in the amount of fish you'll have to keep buying and in the time
you're saving, as well as the added years of enjoyment you'll get from
your fish living longer, it's worth it.
There are actually two good books I have that I can recommend:
Aquariology: The Science of Fish Health Management by John Gratzek
The New Aquarium Handbook by Ines Scheurmann
Sites for information:
Aquaria Central: www.aquariacentral.com
Exotic Tropical Fish: www.fish.bit.com.au/Index.html
Not Catfish: www.notcatfish.com
Catfish: www.catfish.com
Good luck and don't worry, you'll be fine. Sorry this post is so long,
I didn't mean to blab on and on like that. ^_^;;;
--
Larraine @=@
bird-...@worldnet.att.net
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Alec Dale
it may be helpful.
> > trimmed for space...<
> > I added a thermometer to my 8 gallon tank. Reads 25 degrees celcius
> plus
> > minus 1, everybody's happy. I went to the LFS yesterday and the
> owner tells
> > me he doesn't have ammonia/ammonium/nitrite/nitrate test kits coz he
> never
> > uses them and he has no problems. He says he only test for pH. Is it
> > true?!
>
> NO!!! You should be testing for everything! Fish stores at best only
> keep fish for short periods of time, so any stress placed on the fish
> because of frequent water changes is usually solved when the fish are
> bought and placed in the home aquarium. It also sounds like the LFS
> guy just doesn't care. I worked at a Petland for a month (the WORST
> month of my life...) and if that isn't the epitome of callousness, I
> don't know what is. If it dies, replace it. Who cares why or how to
> avoid it happening. These guys are a dime a dozen to them. Get a
> better LFS if you can. <steps down off her soap box> Anyway... But
> on personal experience, my tank was having so many problems I was
> losing fish left and right and almost gave it all up. I found out
> about water quality and testing and I keep up on it now regularly and
> haven't had a problem since.
Agree strongly, especially with a new tank.
> > After checking the characteristics of all my fishes, I think my tank
> needs to be pH 6.5 so everybody's happy. Question. Are those pH-up and
> pH-
> down medication harmful to my fishes? Is there a natural way to achieve
> the pH value I want? Wonder if litmus paper is cheaper than pH test kits.
>
> Will check it out later.
>
> Supposedly (and I could be wrong on this, so the rest of you feel free
> to correct me) they aren't that effective in the long run because they
> don't offer any true buffering capacity which will prevent rapid pH
> fluctuations when everything settles.
I agree, 7.0 is neutral and most people who have community type fish
would be very happy with it. As mentioned most fish will do
fine at that pH as long as it is stable. DON'T mess with it!
> > The water in my area has pH 7.0 and is slightly chlorinated. I added
> this plant which has arrow-head-like leaves. Is this a mistake?
>
> If my guess is right, you have a sword plant. I love live plants in a
> tank. My 29gal. is full of them. Just make sure of the size your
> plants are going to grow beforehand. Some plants can grow huge such as
> the sword plant, and don't add plants before your tank is finished
> cycling, since they compete a little too successfully with the
> nitrifying bacteria and it screws up your cycling.
Have to disagree here. Plants in the cycling process are highly
beneficial in my opinion. First they often are a good source of
seeding the tank with the required bacteria, and second any reduction
in the ammonia in a tank cycling with fish is a great thing! Heavily
planted tanks
often display greatly reduced (or nonexistent in my case) ammonia
and nitrite spikes.
> I have 3 bottles of stuff. 1 bottle is anti-chlorine with no chemical
> composition listed - this makes me nervous. What is anti-chlorine
> normally made of?
>
> All those anti-chlorine/chloramine chemicals contain sodium thiosulfate
> which bond with the chlorine/chloramines to a non-toxic compound.
> However, this bonding also causes the formation of ammonia, so check
> your water ammonia leverls after using it.
That only occurs if your tap water contains chloramine, if it is simple
chlorine
there will be no ammonia released. If you don't know which your water has
ask your municipal water supply. If you have chloramine, you need to use
a product that also treats both the chlorine and ammonia.
> I have another bottle that ways "general disinfectant". In English,
> it says > it's good for about almost every common problems a fish can
> have. In
> French, it states the chemical composition - which is 3C23H25N2Cl.2H20
If I am not mistaken that is the formula for malachite green.
Malachite green is a dye that is used for treatment of fungus
and external parasites. Do not add it unless you know your
fish have a fungus or external parasitic infection. Here is some
good info. regarding its use:
http://www.kordon.com/kpd26.htm
> > The 3rd bottle is the most expensive one says it removes chlorine,
> > chloramines & heavy metals. Buffers pH and reduces stress. What
> does pH buffering mean? (I'm not a chemical engineer, I'm a computer
> engineer) Contains aloe vera?! Forms protective slime. Creates superior
> water
> > quality. Protects mucous & gills. Are such stuff any good to the
> fish? Sounds good. But?
> What is it, Stress Coat? Yes, it is good for your fish and water. I
> swear by the stuff. Buffers are chemicals (technically the combination
> of an acid or base with a salt) in the water that keeps the pH from
> fluctuating to dangerous levels. You want a good amount of buffering
> for your water (your current levels can be determined through testing
> kits which can be bought at any LFS). As fish and other life in your
> tank release carbon dioxide to the water, these combine to form an acid
> which will lower the pH of the water, which at low enough levels makes
> life miserable or dangerous for everybody. The Aloe is just used as an
> emollient for the fish if they happen to lose some of their natural
> slime coating. It's all good! ^_^
Personally I think all the additives are a waste of time, but that is my
opinion.
If your water has a decent buffering capacity already there is no need to
add more.
Most of the pH reduction in a tank is from the oxidation of ammonia to
nitrate.
Fish do just great in their natural environments without aloe, so I see
absolutely
no reason to add it to our tanks. In general the less crap you throw in
your tank
the better off your fish will be.
> > I noticed that some of my fishes have torn fins. The problem is I
> can't > differentiate the difference between torn and rotting. Anyway, is
> it
> due to > stress? The tank has been running for 1 month. I do 20% water
> changes > every 3rd day. Previously, the fishes were losing color. Now
> it's
> OK. I > do water changes on every 3rd days coz that's the day they always
>
> start to > lose color. I assume the water is stressing them and hence the
> color
> loss. > When I do the water change, the color comes back and the appetite
> returns. > Am I doing the right thing? Will the tank cycle this way?
Have you fully read up on the nitrogen cycle in aquaria and fully understand
it?
I am guessing not since you mention that you have 11 fish in your 8g and had
10 in
your 1g. At least I hope you only have 11 in there, I am not sure since you
say you added
another 5 black neons, 5 serpaes, and a pleco. I hope that is not in
addition to
some fish you already had?
As mentioned, the stress is probably due to ammonia and/or nitrite toxicity.
You REALLY need to get yourself some test kits and find out what is
happening
in your aquarium. The frequent water changes are definitely a good thing in
your case,
since your fish load is too high for a cycling tank. Yes the tank will
cycle, and hopefully
your frequent water changes will see your fish through. However, if they
have been
experiencing chronic levels of ammonia and nitrite, don't be surprised if
they die from a
variety of causes a month or two down the road. I suggest you read up on
the nitrogen
cycle, and how to properly cycle a tank with fish, or even better for next
time, cycling
without fish. In addition small hang on the back filter such as an
aquaclear mini would
probably be a lot better. If you do get another filter, just add it to the
tank and do NOT
remove your other filter, or you will lose a lot of your biofilter.
Some great reading:
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycling.html
http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html
> > In my 8 gallon tank, I added about half a teaspoon of salt. Is this
> good? I hear it keeps ich/ick away. But I'm worried for my peppered
> pleco
> aka suckermouth catfish(?). I can't get information off the web about my
> pleco. Like what pH it likes, what temperature it likes, etc...
>
> Salt is good in an aquarium (approx. 1 tblsp./5 gal.) and make sure of
> course that it is aquarium salt. Salt helps keep the pressure balance
> between the outside water and the internal water in the fish at
> liveable proportions so the fish neither absorbs too much water or
> dehydrates.
This is just not the case. Freshwater fish have evolved to various levels
of total salinity. Depending on the species, it will be able to tolerate a
broad range
of salinity levels or not. There is certainly no physiological or osmotic
reason to add
NaCl to aquarium water for the vast majority of freshwater fish. I'm not
saying that it
will harm most fish at low enough levels, I just don't see any need for
adding it on a
continuous basis. Its short term use certainly can help in the treatment of
some parasitic
infections like ich. That all said, half a teaspoon in your 8gal is not
going to hurt anything.
In fact salt can help fish against nitrite toxicity during the cycling
process. So in this case,
I would say you are fine with the salt you have added.
> I know I started out wrongly, but I'm trying to correct things now.
> Please let me know if I'm doing anything wrong!
Hopefully my comments did not sound harsh. I'm not trying to discourage
you,
but it seems like you need to do a bit more research. You are certainly on
the
right path now, keep it up, and good luck. I also agree, either aim to get
a larger
tank or reduce your fish load. The pleco will undoubtedly get too large for
your
tank, unless one of the smallest species. Those are also the most expensive
usually,
so my guess is it will get too large for your tank.
Alec Dale
> I bought it from a LFS when I was still ignorant. It's light brownish sand
> like things... my pH keeps going to 7.3 plus minus 0.1. Very irritating as
> I need my water to be at pH 6.5 for my tetras.
No, you don't! Messing with the pH is far worse for your fish than a stable
pH. 7-7.3 is fine for most tetras as long as you keep it stable....don't mess
with it.
> It's not true that they guy doesn't care. He runs a real large LFS with a
> lot of fishes. The nitrite tester he had was covered full of dust and I
> refused to buy it. There was no ammonia test kit. Other than that, he
> explained a lot of other things to me.
Well, if he does not sell the most basic test kits, he is not running a very
good store in my opinion.
> *whew* I'm not losing fishes left and right. My fishes are losing color on
> and off which makes me think that they are getting stressed on and off. I'm
> trying to fix this problem and making them comfortable more often than not.
Yep, keep up the water changes, but you really do need some test kits.
> While waiting for responses here, I wondered into deep space (once again)
> trying to differentiate information from misinformation - I think the
> original and first definition of hardness was that the water had difficult
> producing bubbles.
Hardness (guerrilla hardness) is a measure of the multivalent metal ions
dissolved in the water. In most cases the only measurable ones are
Calcium and Magnesium. They inhibit foaming properties of soaps
by forming precipitates or soap scum.
Alec Dale
> Hardness (guerrilla hardness) is a measure of the multivalent metal ions
> dissolved in the water. In most cases the only measurable ones are
> Calcium and Magnesium. They inhibit foaming properties of soaps
> by forming precipitates or soap scum.
The problem of spell checkers. Obviously should read (general hardness)
Gemstone Warrior
larger tank. you have enough fish for a 20 gal tank (minimum.) the fish in
your 8 gal are overcroweded. =P
On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Stuart Teo wrote:
> I started out one month ago without any knowledge. It was a mistake. I
> should have surfed the web and read newsgroup postings before I started.
>
> Like some beginners, I bought myself a minute plastic tank which could hold
> about 1 gallon of water. I had 10 fishes inside it, 5 of each species. I
> later found out that I had 5 zebra danios and 5 tetra black widow.
>
> Still without reading & surfing, I changed to an 8 gallon tank. I added
> sand (gravel?), a corner filter which operates on an airpump, an airpump
> with an airstone attached. All because it was fun to do things for my tank.
>
> What's gravel? Is the coarse sand I added also known as gravel?
>
> The corner filter is a really simple mechanism which has activated charcoal
> at the bottom and fine wool-like mesh on top.
>
> I added another 5 tetra black neons & 5 tetra serpae & 1 peppered pleco.
>
> Then I started discovering newsgroups & websites about tropical fishes as
> pets. I started learning about ammonia/ammonium, nitrites and nitrates.
> Since I have basic engineering training, these stuff makes sense to me.
> Fine.
>
> Following that, I took out my goldfish and put it in its own tank since they
> don't fit with each other.
>
> I added a thermometer to my 8 gallon tank. Reads 25 degrees celcius plus
> minus 1, everybody's happy. I went to the LFS yesterday and the owner tells
> me he doesn't have ammonia/ammonium/nitrite/nitrate test kits coz he never
> uses them and he has no problems. He says he only test for pH. Is it
> true?!
>
> After checking the characteristics of all my fishes, I think my tank needs
> to be pH 6.5 so everybody's happy. Question. Are those pH-up and pH-down
> medication harmful to my fishes? Is there a natural way to achieve the pH
> value I want? Wonder if litmus paper is cheaper than pH test kits. Will
> check it out later.
>
> Question. Is sea/ocean water hard or soft? Have forgotten the definition.
> Given it back to my teachers. I know that either hard or soft water
> produces a lot of bubbles.
>
> The water in my area has pH 7.0 and is slightly chlorinated. I added this
> plant which has arrow-head-like leaves. Is this a mistake?
>
> I have 3 bottles of stuff. 1 bottle is anti-chlorine with no chemical
> composition listed - this makes me nervous. What is anti-chlorine normally
> made of?
>
> I have another bottle that ways "general disinfectant". In English, it says
> it's good for about almost every common problems a fish can have. In
> French, it states the chemical composition - which is 3C23H25N2Cl.2H20
> Shit. I see a lot of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, chlorine and oxygen but
> what the hell is this stuff? Is it safe to add to my tank?!
>
> The 3rd bottle is the most expensive one says it removes chlorine,
> chloramines & heavy metals. Buffers pH and reduces stress. What does pH
> buffering mean? (I'm not a chemical engineer, I'm a computer engineer)
> Contains aloe vera?! Forms protective slime. Creates superior water
> quality. Protects mucous & gills. Are such stuff any good to the fish?
> Sounds good. But?
>
> I noticed that some of my fishes have torn fins. The problem is I can't
> differentiate the difference between torn and rotting. Anyway, is it due to
> stress? The tank has been running for 1 month. I do 20% water changes
> every 3rd day. Previously, the fishes were losing color. Now it's OK. I
> do water changes on every 3rd days coz that's the day they always start to
> lose color. I assume the water is stressing them and hence the color loss.
> When I do the water change, the color comes back and the appetite returns.
> Am I doing the right thing? Will the tank cycle this way?
>
> In my 8 gallon tank, I added about half a teaspoon of salt. Is this good?
> I hear it keeps ich/ick away. But I'm worried for my peppered pleco aka
> suckermouth catfish(?). I can't get information off the web about my pleco.
> Like what pH it likes, what temperature it likes, etc...
>
> I know I started out wrongly, but I'm trying to correct things now. Please
> let me know if I'm doing anything wrong!
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------
Senusi Lewis (a.k.a.)
Mythral , the last of the Gemstone Warriors
---<[===The Age of Might===]>---
email: gems...@astro.temple.edu
---------------------------------------------
Chuck Gadd
<hl...@cyberway.com.sg> wrote:
>I made a chart using Excel. Due to the mix of fishes I have in my tank, pH
>7.0 is my tank's high limit. I can't let it go beyond pH 7.0. pH 6.5 would
>be nicer for everybody. I've been thinking about using a driftwood.
What fish can't go beyond 7.0? Even discus, which prefer acidic water
will live a full and happy life in 7.1 or 7.2 ph water.
>So is ocean/sea water considered hard or soft?
Hard, with a very high pH.
Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua
Alec Dale
Stuart Teo wrote:
> Alec Dale <lim...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3909D499...@home.com...
>
> > No, you don't! Messing with the pH is far worse for your fish than a
> stable
> > pH. 7-7.3 is fine for most tetras as long as you keep it stable....don't
> mess
> > with it.
>
> I made a chart using Excel. Due to the mix of fishes I have in my tank, pH
> 7.0 is my tank's high limit. I can't let it go beyond pH 7.0. pH 6.5 would
> be nicer for everybody. I've been thinking about using a driftwood.
You are missing the point. Your fish will do just fine and probably
thrive at 7.0 or 7.3 Having a stable pH is more important than having
the exact pH listed in a book. The difference between 6.5 and 7.0 is
not going to affect your fish in any significant way unless you are constantly
messing with it and causing fluctuations, so they are continually acclimating
to different conditions. Just leave it alone. If you are concerned about
breeding,
then you might want to decrease it a little but 7.0 is not a high pH.
Alec Dale
>
> > Have to disagree here. Plants in the cycling process are highly
> > beneficial in my opinion. First they often are a good source of
> > seeding the tank with the required bacteria, and second any reduction
> > in the ammonia in a tank cycling with fish is a great thing! Heavily
> > planted tanks
> > often display greatly reduced (or nonexistent in my case) ammonia
> > and nitrite spikes.
>
Has what been tested? The fact that aquatic plants rapidly utilize ammonia?
Absolutely! The rest is common knowledge for anyone who owns
a planted tank. The reasoning is that in heavily planted tanks, the plants
utilize most if not all of the ammonia produced by a small to moderate fish
load before bacteria can break it down. Yes this means you have a smaller
bacterial population, but as long as you don't go in and remove all of your
plants
the end effect is the same, i.e.. no ammonia.
> Something's wrong here. I do not have 11 fishes in a 8g and 10 in a 1g. I
> only have a 20 ltr tank with overpopulation - that I know. But I can't get
> another tank coz of space constrain. So I'll have to keep this tank, and
> keep the fishes. Somehow...
So what exactly do you have??
You wrote
"about 1 gallon of water. I had 10 fishes inside it, 5 of each species. I
later found out that I had 5 zebra danios and 5 tetra black widow."
"Still without reading & surfing, I changed to an 8 gallon tank. "
"I added another 5 tetra black neons & 5 tetra serpae & 1 peppered pleco."
"Following that, I took out my goldfish and put it in its own tank since they
don't fit with each other."
So what size tank are you talking about and exactly what fish do you have
in it?
> Reading this NG really makes me wonder. When I was a kid, I had guppies.
> Looking back, it was an overcrowded tank. The guppies had no luxury of an
> airpump nor filter. Just water changes. And damned! Those guppies were
> breeding like lemmings!
So do you want to provide a good environment for your fish or do you
just want to have a little tank full of neglected guppies? You seem to be
on the right road and you are getting good advice here; I would follow it.
> since your fish load is too high for a cycling tank. Yes the tank will
> > cycle, and hopefully
>
> Someone told me that dropping a piece of sponge into the tank would be a
> good idea as the bacteria will colonize?
Well, if it is the sponge from a filter in an established tank, then yeah that
will
probably help since it will be colonized by beneficial bacteria. Just dropping
a random piece of sponge in your tank will not do anything.
> cycle, and how to properly cycle a tank with fish, or even better for next
> > time, cycling
>
> Honestly, I don't intend to have a next time. A next time simply means my
> fishes are all dead. I intend to keep them alive, so...
>
> It won't grow too big if the tank's not too big, isn't it?
That is a total myth. The only reason a fish slows its growth in a small
tank is due to poor water quality and buildup of toxic chemicals that inhibit
growth. The other reason is that they die before they get "too big"
Stuart Teo
> As far as I've ever seen gravel is used to refer to the larger stones.
> Use the term substrate. ;p It's easier and refers to everything. Just
> make sure the substrate you use is for freshwater or it will screw with
> the water and make life for your fish miserable.
I bought it from a LFS when I was still ignorant. It's light brownish sand
like things... my pH keeps going to 7.3 plus minus 0.1. Very irritating as
I need my water to be at pH 6.5 for my tetras.
> bought and placed in the home aquarium. It also sounds like the LFS
> guy just doesn't care. I worked at a Petland for a month (the WORST
It's not true that they guy doesn't care. He runs a real large LFS with a
lot of fishes. The nitrite tester he had was covered full of dust and I
refused to buy it. There was no ammonia test kit. Other than that, he
explained a lot of other things to me.
> on personal experience, my tank was having so many problems I was
> losing fish left and right and almost gave it all up. I found out
*whew* I'm not losing fishes left and right. My fishes are losing color on
and off which makes me think that they are getting stressed on and off. I'm
trying to fix this problem and making them comfortable more often than not.
> Supposedly (and I could be wrong on this, so the rest of you feel free
> to correct me) they aren't that effective in the long run because they
> don't offer any true buffering capacity which will prevent rapid pH
> fluctuations when everything settles. While they are not harmful in
> and of themselves, the fluctuations occuring afterwards can really
> stress the fish out and leave an opening for disease. Most fish
> actually do tolerate different pH's as long as it's stable. My tank is
> at 7.4 and I have dwarf gouramies, who are supposed to do better at 7.0
> but mine are all happy. In terms of pH testers, I happen to use the
> liquid, but I guess it's a matter of personal opinion since there seems
> to be some debate on they accuracy.
Regarding pH-up & pH-down solutions. I tried bringing down my pH once (and
only once) using that stuff and within hours, the pH floated back to the
original level. *argh* I don't know what's going on...
On accuracy of pH testers, while I was studying chemistry - I had real
accurate testers in the lab. However, I'm wondering where to buy them....
> Sea water is hard which is why ammonia level maintenance is so crucial
> is marine tanks (the ammonia type turns toxic in more alkaline/harder
> water)
While waiting for responses here, I wondered into deep space (once again)
trying to differentiate information from misinformation - I think the
original and first definition of hardness was that the water had difficult
producing bubbles. Which means sea water should be soft, isn't it?
> If my guess is right, you have a sword plant. I love live plants in a
[snip]
> nitrifying bacteria and it screws up your cycling.
Whoops....
> All those anti-chlorine/chloramine chemicals contain sodium thiosulfate
[snip]
> your water ammonia leverls after using it.
Damned ammonia again. The sound of it is beginning to make me feel sick.
> Sorry, can't help you there. I haven't taken biochem yet so I'm at a
> loss. And I say, if you don't know what it will do, don't use it.
There's an explaination for layman. What I wanted to find out is does it
REALLY do what it claims to do? You know what I mean?
> What is it, Stress Coat? Yes, it is good for your fish and water. I
No, it's a local brand Ocean Free Super Fish Guard. Doubt you have heard of
it.
> swear by the stuff. Buffers are chemicals (technically the combination
> of an acid or base with a salt) in the water that keeps the pH from
> fluctuating to dangerous levels. You want a good amount of buffering
I checked the Internet deep space for "pH buffering" and returned me one
heck of an information. Apparently, commercial pH buffers are able to
buffer at any pH they want to. Cool. But what about aquaria buffers? The
bottle I had says it buffers pH but at what value?! I already have 2 type
of coloration-type of pH testers.
> The color loss (and probably fin damage as well) is due to rising
[snip]
> remove ammonia before it reaches toxic levels.
I'd love a larger tank. I can afford it ($). But I can't afford it
(space).
> Salt is good in an aquarium (approx. 1 tblsp./5 gal.) and make sure of
> course that it is aquarium salt. Salt helps keep the pressure balance
I give it sodium chloride. Tradtional type.
Thanks for the response!
Stuart Teo
> No, you don't! Messing with the pH is far worse for your fish than a
stable
> pH. 7-7.3 is fine for most tetras as long as you keep it stable....don't
mess
> with it.
I made a chart using Excel. Due to the mix of fishes I have in my tank, pH
7.0 is my tank's high limit. I can't let it go beyond pH 7.0. pH 6.5 would
be nicer for everybody. I've been thinking about using a driftwood.
> Hardness (guerrilla hardness) is a measure of the multivalent metal ions
> dissolved in the water. In most cases the only measurable ones are
> Calcium and Magnesium. They inhibit foaming properties of soaps
> by forming precipitates or soap scum.
So is ocean/sea water considered hard or soft?
Stuart Teo
> Have to disagree here. Plants in the cycling process are highly
> beneficial in my opinion. First they often are a good source of
> seeding the tank with the required bacteria, and second any reduction
> in the ammonia in a tank cycling with fish is a great thing! Heavily
> planted tanks
> often display greatly reduced (or nonexistent in my case) ammonia
> and nitrite spikes.
Has the above been rigourously tested and proven?
> http://www.kordon.com/kpd26.htm
Thanks for the URL.
> Have you fully read up on the nitrogen cycle in aquaria and fully
understand
> it?
Yes.
> I am guessing not since you mention that you have 11 fish in your 8g and
had
> 10 in
> your 1g. At least I hope you only have 11 in there, I am not sure since
you
Something's wrong here. I do not have 11 fishes in a 8g and 10 in a 1g. I
only have a 20 ltr tank with overpopulation - that I know. But I can't get
another tank coz of space constrain. So I'll have to keep this tank, and
keep the fishes. Somehow...
> You REALLY need to get yourself some test kits and find out what is
> happening
Reading this NG really makes me wonder. When I was a kid, I had guppies.
Looking back, it was an overcrowded tank. The guppies had no luxury of an
airpump nor filter. Just water changes. And damned! Those guppies were
breeding like lemmings!
> since your fish load is too high for a cycling tank. Yes the tank will
> cycle, and hopefully
Someone told me that dropping a piece of sponge into the tank would be a
good idea as the bacteria will colonize?
> cycle, and how to properly cycle a tank with fish, or even better for next
> time, cycling
Honestly, I don't intend to have a next time. A next time simply means my
fishes are all dead. I intend to keep them alive, so...
> http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html
> http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycling.html
> http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html
Thanks for the URL. Have already read it all.
> tank or reduce your fish load. The pleco will undoubtedly get too large
for
It won't grow too big if the tank's not too big, isn't it?
Thanks for all the comments. All appreciated.
Larraine Lage
lim...@home.com wrote:
> I'll add a bit to Larraine's good info. where I can or where
> it may be helpful.
>
Hey thanks! I always get nervous about giving out info, especially if
I'm wrong. I'm glad I was right this time... ^_^;;
> > If my guess is right, you have a sword plant. I love live plants
in a
> > tank. My 29gal. is full of them. Just make sure of the size your
> > plants are going to grow beforehand. Some plants can grow huge
such as
> > the sword plant, and don't add plants before your tank is finished
> > cycling, since they compete a little too successfully with the
> > nitrifying bacteria and it screws up your cycling.
>
> Have to disagree here. Plants in the cycling process are highly
> beneficial in my opinion. First they often are a good source of
> seeding the tank with the required bacteria, and second any reduction
> in the ammonia in a tank cycling with fish is a great thing! Heavily
> planted tanks
> often display greatly reduced (or nonexistent in my case) ammonia
> and nitrite spikes.
But if the both the plants and bacteria are fighting for the ammonia,
wouldn't this extend the cycling process or am I missing something? I
definitely agree though, on the benefits of plants in a tank after
cycling.
Delirium
<hl...@cyberway.com.sg> wrote:
> Alec Dale <lim...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3909D499...@home.com...
>
> > No, you don't! Messing with the pH is far worse for your fish than a
> stable
> > pH. 7-7.3 is fine for most tetras as long as you keep it stable....don't
> mess
> > with it.
>
> I made a chart using Excel. Due to the mix of fishes I have in my tank, pH
> 7.0 is my tank's high limit. I can't let it go beyond pH 7.0.
yes, you can. trust me, i have kept mostly assorted south american
tetras at ph's varying from 7.2 to 7.4.
>pH 6.5 would
> be nicer for everybody. I've been thinking about using a driftwood.
it may be, but a fluctuating ph can cause more problems than always
having the wrong ph. that's the real problem with constantly altering
the ph is you have to have the test kits out all the time. i test when
things look off. if you avoid overfeeding and do your water changes
regularly your tank will achieve a natural balance which is both subtle
and stunning. after a while the test kits will read the same week after
week and you can put them away. or you can spend all your time
tweaking the chemistry of the tank instead of admiring your beautiful
fish.
Stuart Teo
> Have to disagree here. Plants in the cycling process are highly
> beneficial in my opinion. First they often are a good source of
> seeding the tank with the required bacteria, and second any reduction
> in the ammonia in a tank cycling with fish is a great thing! Heavily
> planted tanks
> often display greatly reduced (or nonexistent in my case) ammonia
> and nitrite spikes.
I've read on the internet that plants compete for the same resources as do
the bacteria we need to convert ammonia -> nitrite & nitrite -> nitrate. As
such, it's not good for a cycling tank as plants normally win and bacteria
normally lose. Thus killing the cycling process. So who's right?
Chuck Gadd
>a planted tank. The reasoning is that in heavily planted tanks, the plants
>utilize most if not all of the ammonia produced by a small to moderate fish
>load before bacteria can break it down. Yes this means you have a smalle
I agree 100%!!!
When I set up my 75g, I set up the CO2/lighting/filtration first, then
added plants. After two weeks, I started stocking (slowly). Not once
did I EVER measure any ammonia or nitrite. Ever. I added 10 otos the
first week. Otos are sensitive fish. I've still got all 10. Next
week I added 5 SAEs and 5 cories. Next week I added more cories and
four rainbows (3+ inches). Never any signs of cycling. I wasn't
using a filter/pad/gravel/ or even water from an existing tank.
Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua
Mickie
Stuart Teo wrote in message <390a5...@news.cyberway.com.sg>...
:OK, to rephrase the question:
:
:> Have to disagree here. Plants in the cycling process are highly
:> beneficial in my opinion. First they often are a good source of
:> seeding the tank with the required bacteria, and second any reduction
:> in the ammonia in a tank cycling with fish is a great thing! Heavily
:> planted tanks
:> often display greatly reduced (or nonexistent in my case) ammonia
:> and nitrite spikes.
:
:the bacteria we need to convert ammonia -> nitrite & nitrite -> nitrate.
As
:such, it's not good for a cycling tank as plants normally win and bacteria
:normally lose. Thus killing the cycling process. So who's right?
Plants use ammonia, nitrite and nitrate as food. If you add plants to your
tank it will help keep toxic chemicals in your tank minimized. What the
plants don't use will still be used up by the bacteria in your filter.
Planted tanks in and of themselves are a whole different newsgroup. One
plant isn't going to make that big of a hit on the bacteria food and can
actually help seed the tank with bacteria. All in all, plants are a good
thing unless they are dieing, in which case they will just add to the
chemical load.
As for killing the cycling process, I suppose if you look at it and you have
a nicely planted tank you won't need as much nitrifing bacteria. The end
result is the same. No ammonia, no nitrites and typically... lower nitrates
and better quality water. All this assuming that your plants are healthy
and growing. Dead or dieing plants don't help.
As for the original posters issue of keeping the fish alive, you do want to
remove chlorine or chlorimine from your tapwater before water changes. That
is the only additive you should use. Don't mess with a pH of 7.0, I'd love
to have tapwater with that pH, mine is 7.8. Do change water often. A daily
change of 10% wouldn't be out of line, the more often you do changes the
better your water quality will be. If the plant starts dieing pull it out
and throw it away, get some hard to kill plants like hornwort or java moss.
Remember plants need light and not the incandesent kind. With a tank that
small and that loaded you will never be able to slack on water changes if it
ever comes to a point where you have space for a larger tank, then by all
means invest in one.
Mickie
Alec Dale
> In article <3909CF6A...@home.com>,
> lim...@home.com wrote:
> > I'll add a bit to Larraine's good info. where I can or where
> > it may be helpful.
> >
>
> Hey thanks! I always get nervous about giving out info, especially if
> I'm wrong. I'm glad I was right this time... ^_^;;
> > > If my guess is right, you have a sword plant. I love live plants
> in a
> > > tank. My 29gal. is full of them. Just make sure of the size your
> > > plants are going to grow beforehand. Some plants can grow huge
> such as
> > > the sword plant, and don't add plants before your tank is finished
> > > cycling, since they compete a little too successfully with the
> > > nitrifying bacteria and it screws up your cycling.
> >
> > Have to disagree here. Plants in the cycling process are highly
> > beneficial in my opinion. First they often are a good source of
> > seeding the tank with the required bacteria, and second any reduction
> > in the ammonia in a tank cycling with fish is a great thing! Heavily
> > planted tanks
> > often display greatly reduced (or nonexistent in my case) ammonia
> > and nitrite spikes.
>
> But if the both the plants and bacteria are fighting for the ammonia,
> wouldn't this extend the cycling process or am I missing something? I
> definitely agree though, on the benefits of plants in a tank after
> cycling.
Well, it all depends on how you think of it. You are correct in assuming
that the plants will affect the bacterial population. That WILL lead to
your
tank having a smaller population of bacteria, since depending on the number
of plants you have, the less ammonia available for bacteria. If you only
have
one or two plants, they will use some of the ammonia, but some will still
be left
for bacteria. So you will likely have reduced ammonia and nitrite spikes.
The bacteria will still establish at the same rate, there just won't
be as many of them. If you have a lot of plants, your bacterial population
will be a
fair bit smaller than the same tank without plants. In heavily planted
tanks,
with adequate light and CO2, most of the ammonia will be used by the
plants.
So plants will not slow the rate of establishment of the bacteria, but they
will limit the
size of the population by competing for the same resource. However, since
the plants are removing the toxic ammonia, you don't need the bacteria to
do it. There will always be some bacteria there of course, just not a lot.
If you were to remove all of your plants at once, you would undoubtedly
get a mini-cycle occurring. Plants basically bypass the bacterial
conversion of
ammonia.
My plants do such a good job that I have to add nitrates to my tank so
they have enough. The ammonia produced by my fish is not enough to
sustain all my plants. Many people with planted tanks do the same thing.
I don't think I explained that very well, but I am on my way to work and
am a bit groggy. Hope it makes sense.
Alec Dale
> OK, to rephrase the question:
>
> > Have to disagree here. Plants in the cycling process are highly
> > beneficial in my opinion. First they often are a good source of
> > seeding the tank with the required bacteria, and second any reduction
> > in the ammonia in a tank cycling with fish is a great thing! Heavily
> > planted tanks
> > often display greatly reduced (or nonexistent in my case) ammonia
> > and nitrite spikes.
>
> I've read on the internet that plants compete for the same resources as do
> the bacteria we need to convert ammonia -> nitrite & nitrite -> nitrate. As
> such, it's not good for a cycling tank as plants normally win and bacteria
> normally lose. Thus killing the cycling process. So who's right?
I am and you are ;-) . Read my reply to Larraine above. Think about it. The
reason
you want the bacteria is to oxidize ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. The reason
you want that is because, ammonia and nitrite are both toxic to your fish.
Yes the plants use the same ammonia and yes they are better at it than the
bacteria.
However, your goal in cycling a tank is to get to a point where ammonia is
removed/converted almost as soon as it is produced. Plants do this by
incorporating
the ammonia into their tissues.
Here are some simple ways to look at it assuming your plants have all the
conditions
required to grow well (light, CO2...etc).
1) You have one or two large plants in your tank. Say they use about 20-30% of
the
ammonia before the bacteria can. The end result is that your
ammonia/nitrite/nitrate
levels are all reduced by about 20-30%. This is good because your fish are not
exposed to such high levels of toxic ammonia and nitrite.
2) You have a moderately planted tank...maybe 40-50% of the bottom covered.
Perhaps the plants use 60-70% of the ammonia. Your ammonia/nitrite/nitrate
levels
and spikes are reduced that much more....happier fish.
3) You have a heavily planted tank. Suppose the plants use 70-100% of the
ammonia.
In this scenario, you will never see an ammonia or nitrite or nitrate spike in
your tank.
You may even need to add nitrate to your tank to keep all the plants happy.
Your fish
are going crazy with joy because they have not been exposed to any toxic
ammonia/nitrite
hehe
So yes the plants can out compete the bacteria but the end result is the same,
i.e. no ammonia
In fact the result with plants is better since they have added benefits such as
producing more
oxygen, removing other contaminants ...etc. With a heavily planted tank you
bypass the
bacterial cycling of ammonia. Even if you only have a few plants, it will not
affect the rate
of bacterial colonization, only the final population number.
Larraine Lage
about having added a ton of plants when I first set up the 29 gal.
--
Larraine @=@
bird-...@worldnet.att.net
In article <390ACEC5...@home.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Stuart Teo
> you want the bacteria is to oxidize ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. The
reason
Ok. Let's just go back to the basics. The reason why I'm confused is I
don't know what type of ammonia/nitrite/nitrate we are talking about.
Will somebody tell me what the chemical formulae are and I'll try to figure
out the rest?!
As far as I know, nitrites & nitrates are salts. But What type? Organic?
Or inorganic?
And till today, I still find it strange (puzzled) about fish metabolism and
why they produce ammonia. In which form?
Stuart Teo
> In fact the result with plants is better since they have added benefits
such as
> producing more oxygen, removing other contaminants ...etc. With a heavily
planted tank you
> bypass the bacterial cycling of ammonia. Even if you only have a few
plants, it will not
> affect the rate of bacterial colonization, only the final population
number.
Question. How much CO2 will plants release at night. Will it suffocate
fishes? Assuming a heavily planted tank?
Chuck Gadd
<hl...@cyberway.com.sg> wrote:
>Question. How much CO2 will plants release at night. Will it suffocate
>fishes? Assuming a heavily planted tank?
First of all, increasing the CO2 level (from whatever source) would
not suffocate the fish. O2 and CO2 levels are (effectively)
independant in water. At the levels that you will find in your tank,
you can have very high CO2 and O2 levels at the same time.
But, no, plants will not add a measurable amount of CO2 to the water.
Check out my 75g. It doesn't get any heavier planted. The amount
of CO2 in the water can be easily judged by watching the pH. As the
amount of CO2 increases, pH will fall. My compressed CO2 injection
system constantly adds CO2 to my tank. During the day, my pH is
about 6.6 (down from 7.6 without adding any CO2). At night, when the
plants aren't using CO2, the pH stays the same, 6.6. It's possible
(and probable) that there is a slight pH drop, but not even .1
But as I said, high CO2 doesn' t mean low O2. In fact, my O2 levels
are constantly higher than a non-planted tank with an airstone running
full time. During the day, O2 levels are over 100% of saturation.
During the night, they are between 80-90% of saturation. By
comparison, my friends non-planted tank measured about 75% of
saturation during the day.
My numbers are with a compressed CO2 system. Having very high CO2
levels and high lighting will allow very high photosynthesis levels.
This will allow the plants to saturate the water with O2.
Without CO2 and high lighting, plants will have very little effect on
the O2 or CO2 levels.
Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua
Doug Karpa-Wilson
> Ok. Let's just go back to the basics. The reason why I'm confused is I
> don't know what type of ammonia/nitrite/nitrate we are talking about.
They're all forms of nitrogen essentially. ammonia is NH3, Ammonium NH4+
(reduced) and Nitrite is NO2, nitrate NO3. So, not organic (no carbon).
However, each in the series is more oxidized, which means that someone
(bacteria) can get energy from each oxidation step the way you do
oxidizing carbohydrates (lots of CH bonds) into CO2.
The key think is ammonium and nitrite are toxic, but nitrate isn't at the
levels you'll see in your tank if you do water changes or have plants.
> And till today, I still find it strange (puzzled) about fish metabolism and
> why they produce ammonia. In which form?
O.k. Proteins are made up of amino acids. Amino acids are amino acids
because they have amino groups, which are -NH3. Dump proteins in water or
processes them and those amino groups come of as NH3. Also, generally
animals eat more nitrogen then they need, but you can't ship it around
your body as ammonium (toxic, remember) so fish (and humans) turn it into
urea (two NH3s attached to some carbon) and excrete it in Urine. The urea
breaks down very fast in water into 2 ammonium. That's where the ammonium
comes from. The bacteria take it from there.
Doug
--
hay hombres que luchan un dia y son buenos
hay otros que luchan un año y son mejores
hay quienes luchan muchos años y son muy buenos
pero hay los que luchan toda la vida ellos son los imprescindibles
Doug Karpa-Wilson
> On Mon, 1 May 2000 13:42:33 +0800, "Stuart Teo"
> <hl...@cyberway.com.sg> wrote:
>
> >Question. How much CO2 will plants release at night. Will it suffocate
> >fishes? Assuming a heavily planted tank?
>
adding to the wise words of Chuck,the eternal (see
rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants) the CO2 doesn't compete with the O2. So,
the CO2 won't lead to suffocation of your fish. But CO2 can cause CO2
poisoning (blood acidosis, really) at very high levels (say >60ppm. tanks
without CO2 added come to around 2ppm, my DIY never tops 20ppm), but
plants aren't going to do that. Dumping yeast and sugar in high
quantities might, but not plants.
Alec Dale
> Alec Dale <lim...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:390AD364...@home.com...
>
> > you want the bacteria is to oxidize ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. The
> reason
>
> Ok. Let's just go back to the basics. The reason why I'm confused is I
> don't know what type of ammonia/nitrite/nitrate we are talking about.
>
> Will somebody tell me what the chemical formulae are and I'll try to figure
> out the rest?!
Ammonia (NH3)/ammonium(NH4= less toxic) is a nitrogenous waste product.
Aquatic animals can easily get rid of ammonia (diffusion) from their blood
streams,
so they do not need to package it into less toxic forms such as urea or uric
acid.
The vast majority of ammonia release in fish occurs across the gills.
The lower the pH of your water, the more ammonia present in the ammonium
form (NH4). The ratio of the two forms works on a log scale since it depends
on concentration of H ions (pH). So there will be 10 times less ammonia
present
as NH3 at pH 6, than at pH 7. That's why ammonia poisoning is less at lower
pHs.
> As far as I know, nitrites & nitrates are salts. But What type? Organic?
> Or inorganic?
NO2- and NO3- One type of bacteria will use NH4/3 and produce NO2(nitrite),
which
another type of bacteria will use and produce NO3(nitrate). This continuous
process
can slowly lower your pH since it is continually releasing H ions.
> And till today, I still find it strange (puzzled) about fish metabolism and
> why they produce ammonia. In which form?
It's primarily an end product of the metabolism of protein or other
nitrogenous compounds. We produce ammonia as well, but since
we can't get rid of it as quickly as aquatic animals, we package it up in
a concentrated and much less toxic from...urea.
Alec Dale
Doug Karpa-Wilson wrote:
> your body as ammonium (toxic, remember) so fish (and humans) turn it into
> urea (two NH3s attached to some carbon) and excrete it in Urine. The urea
> breaks down very fast in water into 2 ammonium. That's where the ammonium
> comes from. The bacteria take it from there.
Actually most fish do not produce urea, the ammonia is excreted by diffusion
across
the gills. Elasmobranchs (sharks, rays...etc) are an exception, and do produce
high
concentrations of urea, which allows them to control their osmoregulation by not
losing
water, as opposed to teleosts (bony fish). Marine teleosts are constantly
drinking water
to compensate for water loss.
Doug Karpa-Wilson
That's pretty cool. I guess the rate is high enough that there's
basically zero concentration in the blood. Learn something everyday if
you keep your eyes open! Thanks,
Alec Dale
Claire McDonald wrote:
> On Mon, 01 May 2000 14:45:51 GMT, Alec Dale <lim...@home.com> wrote:
>
> ...cut...
>
> >NO2- and NO3- One type of bacteria will use NH4/3 and produce NO2(nitrite),
> >which
> >another type of bacteria will use and produce NO3(nitrate). This continuous
> >process
> >can slowly lower your pH since it is continually releasing H ions.
>
> Hi Alec,
>
> From what I understand, there seem to be a number of different sets of
> bacteria generally referred to as nitrifiers, also called
> chemo-autotrophic bacteria, due to their need for ammonia and nitrite
> ions in order to ensure their growth.
> the Nitrosomonas use ammonia directly excreted by fish through their
> gills as their main energy source thereby oxidising it to the nitrite
> ions. Then follow the next group of bacteria generally known as
> Nitrobacter. These oxidise the nitrites to the nitrate ions.
Well I will avoid giving them names since there is strong evidence
to suggest that neither Nitrosomonas nor Nitrobacter are the bacteria
that are involved in this process in freshwater aquaria. However,
what they are really does not matter as far as we are concerned, unless
you are buying a product claims to contain the above mentioned bacteria.
Personally, I think those products are a waste of money, but that is a whole
other topic ;-)
> I'm a little confused in that the two foregoing groups of bacteria
> seem to transform nitrogenous wastes into free nitrogen, and that the
> real process of denitrification (would that then be the free nitrogen
> ?) is carried out by a different set of bacteria (but which ?) in the
> *absence* of oxygen.
Nope they are transforming NH4/3 into NO2 and then NO3, not N2.
The very fact that it is an oxidation process indicates that it is an aerobic
process. Denitrification or the reduction of NO3 to N2 is an anaerobic
process that rarely occurs in our tanks. Unless you have a plenum set up
of course.
> My question at this point is - how many different sets of bacteria
> come onto the scene and in which order
2
> - to fulfill the complete
> process of transforming nitrogenous waste into nitrates which are then
> absorbed by plants for their growth ?
> which bacteria work in the presence of oxygen
Both
> and which are the ones
> that work in the absence of oxygen ?
The denitrifying ones (NO3-->N2), which don't really play a role in our aquaria,
since we tend to avoid anoxic conditions, even in our substrates.