ph level too high
Marc Kleiman
trying the PH Down drops for over 6 weeks now and they don't seem to be
doing anything. Is there a better way to lower the PH?
Marc
Wutupfolks
Date: Thu, Mar 25, 1999 8:28 AM
Message-id: <36FA643A...@nac.net>
Marc>>
I am not the water expert I wish I was, but I can try to tell you what I feel I
do know...
The pH drops, being chemical (as opposed to more natural methods like peat,
etc) do not allow for permanent or more permanent changes since they do nothing
adjust the buffer. They can also add phosphates (depending on the brand). You
chase it down, but it will eventually come right back up.
Others in here can tell you much more about it in more finite and technical
terms. Using DI or RO water is a good starting point (as you tap water may have
a high pH to begin with); using CO2 injection will help to a point; and using
peat filtering will help quite a bit.
Surely others in here will give you better/more complete information.
Feel free to email me with complaints, criticism, or etc...
Always get at least two sources of info regarding fishkeeping... One you trust,
and one you really trust...
MadAdmin
wrote:
>I've been checking my tank and the ph is always too high. I've been
>trying the PH Down drops for over 6 weeks now and they don't seem to be
>doing anything. Is there a better way to lower the PH?
>
>Marc
You'll need to buffer it at the level you want. I'm using "Proper pH"
to keep my tank at 6.5. I believe the stuff is from Aquarium
Pharmaceuticals. Anyhow so far it seems to be working fine at keeping
my pH stable at 6.5. They have several different types to suit the pH
you're shooting for.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The sig.....
"Bother," said Pooh.
"Eeyore, ready two photon torpedoes
and lock phasers on the Heffalump.
Piglet, meet me in Transporter Room Three."
Nestor 10
news:19990325113308...@ng99.aol.com...
>...Surely others in here will give you better/more complete information.
Unfortunately, though, statements like "I've been checking my tank and the
ph is always too high" leave quite a bit to be desired in the "specifics"
category...
-Y-
http://www.mindspring.com/~nestor10
nest...@mindspring.chkr.com
".chkr" is for mail- bots
Patrick Timlin
> I've been checking my tank and the ph is always too high. I've been
> trying the PH Down drops for over 6 weeks now and they don't seem to be
> doing anything. Is there a better way to lower the PH?
<< sighhhhhhh >>
Standard questions about the things EVERYONE who posts this same question
leaves out.
1) What is your pH now?
2) What pH are you trying to reach?
A lot of the time, after asking these questions it will turn out that a
person's tank pH is not all that high after all and to quite messing with it.
It is those damn ignorant pet stores who are always pushing the "magic
number" of 7.0 as the Holy Grail of water pH levels. So someone measures
their pH, finds it is (gasp!!!) 7.4, panics, rushes out to buy a bucket full
of chemicals, adds them for day, the pH is still (gasp!!!) 7.2 and they think
they have a problem.
Sorry, I don't mean this as a flame to the poster. More of a not so subtle
reminder to everyone who posts questions to please include the relevant
numbers/measurements that you are referring to.
After all, if someone comes along and says you are old, well if my 5 year old
daughter told you that, you probably are not all that old. However if your 90
year old Grandma tells you your old, well then you probably are. "Old",
"HIGH", "BIG", etc are all relative terms.
Patrick Timlin --- http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4742/
pti...@yahoo.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Shannon Wheeler
able to help.
"too high" doesn't tell us very much.
*The opinions expressed herein are my own and are not necessarily
representative of the policies or opinions of my employer.*
Shannon Wheeler
Data & Comm. Tech
Clearwater Welding & Fabricating Ltd
Fort McMurray, AB
Remove the lucky rodent parts from my address to reply.
Marc Kleiman wrote in message <36FA643A...@nac.net>...
>I've been checking my tank and the ph is always too high. I've been
>trying the PH Down drops for over 6 weeks now and they don't seem to be
>doing anything. Is there a better way to lower the PH?
>
>Marc
Micah Montoya
between 8.4-9. Way to high for my comfort. I've tried PH Down with no
success. What the initial problem is, I'm not sure. Using the moss is my
next thinking but I'm wondering if of the use if it will contaminate the
water as it is not alive or is it the deterioration that causes the
reduction of the Ph. I'm not sure. Good luck with everything.
ju...@pconline.com.spambait
The idea of something being 'natural' or 'chemical' is purely
arbitrary. Using industrial acids and ion exchange resins will have the
same effect (and work in the same way) as using peat. "Natural" is a
word for sales pitches, not a meaningful indicator of safety or efficacy.
: etc) do not allow for permanent or more permanent changes since they do nothing
: adjust the buffer. They can also add phosphates (depending on the brand). You
: chase it down, but it will eventually come right back up.
pH rebound often happens in the short term when using acids. (The acid
lowers the pH, then is 'absorbed' by the buffers in the water. If you use
enough acid, you will overcome the water's buffering effect and
permenantly lower the pH. It's an important point that attacking the
problem by softening the water (reducing buffering) can be very effective
at making it easier to lower the pH.
When it's all said and done, one of the most important (and seldom
asked) questions of pH is 'does it matter?' Most fish can live happily in
a wide range of pH values--tinkering with the water is often only really
needed to get some of the more dificult species to spawn.
Russell Furlow
acidifier, thus the lowering of pH.
The reason we use peat is that it decomposes slowly. A lot slower then
just about any other organic.
The one "major" draw back to peat filtration, in some peoples view, is
it turns the water a "tea" or "yellowish" color. As peat decomposes it
releases Tannins. This lowers your pH and gives you the color. Filter with
some GAC, Granular Activated Carbon, and you'll eliminate the "color."
Before you start I would check your water source. What is the pH when
it's "fresh?" Add an air stone to it and run it for a day, then check again.
Do you have any shells in the tank?
Any crushed coral? Whole?
Any rocks? Where did you get them? Dump some vinegar on them, if it
bubbles then do NOT put them back in the tank.
Where did the substrate come from? New or used? If used, was it in a
salt water tank? In a African chiclid tank? If new, is it store bought from
a LFS or did you collect it? Is it sand or rock? If sand, where did you get
it?
Any of the above can cause your hardness and pH to go up.
Russ
Micah Montoya wrote in message <36FABFB1...@isu.edu>...
Greg Letiecq
management practices. As I understand it, the mechanism is different, and GAC
will have a negative effect on it. So here's my spin on it, and hopefully
people like Nestor can weigh in and solve the confusion either you or I, or
both of us have.
Peat releases "humic acids" into the water. As a peat bog matures,
decomposition of plant matter lowers the pH of the bog, just as we see in our
tanks, and the peat absorbs these acidic ions in their plant matter. These
form a great number of different organic acids that are generally referred to
as humic acids.
When we filter alkaline water through peat, it releases these humic acids.
The humic acids bind with the buffers in the water, and the abundance of H+
ions present (yielding water) that both lowers buffering capacity and lowers
pH. Humic acid is not colorless, yielding the "tea" coloration, which is
commonly present in tropical environments. With the great amount of plant
decomposition that typically happens in jungle tropical environments, humic
acids are often present.
So using GAC to remove coloration would be counterproductive, as you'd be
removing the agent that creates the desired change. If the buffers have been
removed already, this doesn't pose a great problem, but if you went to the
trouble to make something happen, undoing it at the same time you're doing it
just doesn't seem effective.
I agree though that the most likely problem here is a rock or substrate
containing dolomite, lime, calcite, or calcium carbonate, unless the tap water
is this hard. Instead of treating the symptom, dealing with the cause is more
effective.
Greg
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/2024/fish.html
"Russell Furlow" <fur...@NOSPAMsnet.net> wrote:
> Peat is a natural ion exchange medium, thus the softening, also a
> acidifier, thus the lowering of pH.
>
> The reason we use peat is that it decomposes slowly. A lot slower then
> just about any other organic.
>
> The one "major" draw back to peat filtration, in some peoples view, is
> it turns the water a "tea" or "yellowish" color. As peat decomposes it
> releases Tannins. This lowers your pH and gives you the color. Filter with
> some GAC, Granular Activated Carbon, and you'll eliminate the "color."
>
> Before you start I would check your water source. What is the pH when
> it's "fresh?" Add an air stone to it and run it for a day, then check again.
>
> Do you have any shells in the tank?
>
> Any crushed coral? Whole?
>
> Any rocks? Where did you get them? Dump some vinegar on them, if it
> bubbles then do NOT put them back in the tank.
>
> Where did the substrate come from? New or used? If used, was it in a
> salt water tank? In a African chiclid tank? If new, is it store bought from
> a LFS or did you collect it? Is it sand or rock? If sand, where did you get
> it?
>
> Any of the above can cause your hardness and pH to go up.
>
> Russ
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Wutupfolks
Date: Thu, Mar 25, 1999 5:32 PM
Message-id: <7deo4b$bi1$2...@bell.pconline.com>
: The pH drops, being chemical (as opposed to more natural methods like peat,
The idea of something being 'natural' or 'chemical' is purely
arbitrary. Using industrial acids and ion exchange resins will have the
same effect (and work in the same way) as using peat. "Natural" is a
word for sales pitches, not a meaningful indicator of safety or efficacy.
>>
Ok- look at the "key" word in there...
"as opposed to "more" natural"
I was simply stating that peat is a "more" natural method... the chems are
"less" narural...
And, my understanding is that chems will not work the same way as peat. Peat
will soften AND lower pH... any pH adjusters I have seen just lower pH.
Marc Kleiman
The tap water is definitely hard and there is nothing I can do about
that. I'm a bit of a novice on this so please be patient with me. Do I
buy the Peat bag from the fish store?
One of your posts said, "Why do I need to lower it, unless I have
difficult species." That's a good point, I may not need to lower the PH
because everything seems fine. I thought that keeping the water at a PH
of 7 is very important. I'd say it's more of an 8 or 8.5 now. I test the
water and it's on the blue side.
I'm beginning to think, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Do you guys
agree with that?
Marc
UKDave
>Thanks all for your help, but there is very little specific advice.
Hey! Welcome to (L)usenet!!! There's loads of self proclaimed
experts around here!!
>
>The tap water is definitely hard and there is nothing I can do about
>that. I'm a bit of a novice on this so please be patient with me. Do I
>buy the Peat bag from the fish store?
Get it from wherever you like. Just make sure it aint got no plant
fertilizer in it.
>
>One of your posts said, "Why do I need to lower it, unless I have
>difficult species." That's a good point, I may not need to lower the PH
>because everything seems fine. I thought that keeping the water at a PH
>of 7 is very important. I'd say it's more of an 8 or 8.5 now. I test the
>water and it's on the blue side.
"on the blue side" is anything above 7.00000000001 <g>.
What fish do you have? Most of them will be alright
whatever the PH...
>
>I'm beginning to think, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Do you guys
>agree with that?
>
>Marc
I agree with that. But no-one else around here does. These
guys swear by testing the water every five minutes,
changing a bit every few days, buying a new test kit every
2 weeks, adding a bit of salt, changing a bit more water,
quoting a book. you name it.. the list is endless.
Dave in the UK
<getting more argumentative,
the more this FUQ BS goes on>
ju...@pconline.com.spambait
Specifics it is. If you have hard water, there are two main options.
The first is to soften the water, which usually means a reverse osmosis
filter or ion exchange filters. The second is to change or overcome the
buffering of the water (buffering being the resistance to changes in pH
that comes from some disolved chemicals, noteably carbonate hardness.)
There are buffering products to lower the pH (Seachem's Acid Buffer is
fairly potent and doesn't use phosphates so it doesn't cause an algae
problem) or you can use a whole lot of acid. (Cheap muriatic acid from
hardware stores is very economical but somewhat dangerous to work with.)
pH adjustment in an aquarium with strong acids is somewhat of an art, so
you might want to try buffers or water softening.
The water softening option most people use if they have multiple or
large tanks is a Reverse Osmosis (RO) filter. It simply hooks up to a
faucet (you usually need an adapter) and forces some of the tap water
through a membrane. Dissolved chemicals in the water (including water
hardness) can't get through the membrane as easily as the water molecules
can, so the water that comes out the other side is very soft and pure.
The downside is that RO filters are moderately expensive initially ($100
for small units) and waste water--for each gallon of RO water the units
will flush about 5-6 gallons down the drain.
The other water softening option is ion exchange filters. The
cheapest type is the Tap Water Purifier, which costs about $30 mail order.
It doesn't waste any water and is even more effective than RO at removing
things from the water. The downside is that the ion exchange material
gets used up--you'll either have to replace them (about $13 each) or
recharge them (very cheap, but messy and requiring somewhat dangerous
chemicals.) A cartridge may last as little as 15-20 gallons if you have
extremely hard water. Still, it's a solution in some cases.
Peat moss is part water softener, part acid. It acts as an ion
exchange material, softening the water (making it easier to change the pH)
and adds organic acids to the water (actively lowering the pH of the now
softer water.) Sphagnum peat moss is used in gardening-you can get a fair
sized pile for a few dollars. Once you have it, it can be used in a
number of ways. The easiest is to take a fine mesh bag (nylon stockings
are perfect) full of peat and place it directly in the tank or in a power
filter. Another aproach is to take a large trash can (the tough
Rubbermaid plastic sort) and dump the peat into that, then fill it with
water and let it sit, giving you a constant source of softened, lower pH
water.
: that. I'm a bit of a novice on this so please be patient with me. Do I
: buy the Peat bag from the fish store?
You can, but they'll rip you off. Try gardening stores, Walmart,
etc.--it's very cheap.
: One of your posts said, "Why do I need to lower it, unless I have
: difficult species." That's a good point, I may not need to lower the PH
: because everything seems fine. I thought that keeping the water at a PH
: of 7 is very important. I'd say it's more of an 8 or 8.5 now. I test the
A pH of 7 is neutral. Most Amazon species (angelfish, most tetras,
etc.) come from water with pH in the 4.5-6 range. Many african species
(like the highly popular african cichlids) come from water in the 8-9
range. And surprisingly, most fish do just fine outside of their
'natural' pH range. Since you have hard water with a high pH, you might
want to try African cichlids, but practically speaking any fish that's
likely to show up at your local pet store is fairly tough and adaptable.
Water pollution is a much greater danger to your fish than having the
'wrong' pH. pH adjustment/control is quite serious business for breeding
many species of fish, but to simply keep and enjoy them you have a lot
more leeway.
'Than
Marc Kleiman
For the time being I think I'm not going to do anything yet. My fish are
doing fine.
I have 2 Mollies, 3 Neons, 1 Albino Catfish, 1 Skunk Corey Catfish, 1
Beta & 1 algea eater all in a 10 gallon tank. I planning on buying 2 or
3 more fish. I'll look into the African Chiclids. Will they work well
with the fish I just mentioned?
Thanks again.
Marc
Beverly Erlebacher
>Thanks all for your help, but there is very little specific advice.
>
>buy the Peat bag from the fish store?
>
>difficult species." That's a good point, I may not need to lower the PH
>because everything seems fine. I thought that keeping the water at a PH
>of 7 is very important. I'd say it's more of an 8 or 8.5 now. I test the
>
>agree with that?
I agree with this. Most fish can adapt to water that is harder and more
alkaline than what they experience in nature, although they may not be
able to breed successfully in it. It's more important that the water be
clean (frequent partial changes) and that parameters such as pH and hardness
change slowly if at all. Most common aquarium fish are pretty adapatable.
If your water is extremely hard and alkaline, you may not be able to keep
some of the more delicate software fish. In that case, stick with fish
that prefer their water that way, such as Central American and African
rift lake cichlids, and most common livebearers. If your fish are doing
ok now, just keep up the partial water changes, and don't worry about
tinkering with the parameters.