South Americans or Africans?
Bob Bunch
the live rock and what few corals and fish were left. Still have a 29gal
reef, but the hair algae in the 75 got to be too much.....
So...the tank now filling up with RO,I hope to be in the freshwater business
soon. Lots of reading to do before I decide what livestock I want to keep.
This newsgroup has been helpful, but I haven't lurked for long... just a
couple of quick questions for a newbie:
1. South Americans or Africans? Any thoughts on either? I'm told the
South Americans are less 'agressive', but the LFS has an African tank that
is spectacular. Thanks in advance for any advice.
2. Cycling questions.... LFS recommends cycling with Tiger Barbs, but I
wonder if there is a fishless way to cycle with freshwater...hate to put any
fish at peril to cycle.. in saltwater, we could substitute live rock to
cycle instead of the normal way of cycling with damsels.
3. Found a few great sites (chiclid recipe looks fantastic)...any books you
would recommend?
Thanks... hope to stay with the group for a long time... I ask in advance
for your patience with what will probably be alot of simple questions....
Bob
Amateur
Bob Bunch <bobm...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:yisV8.4132$Ze7.185...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
Cichlid tank and keeping some of the species. I've only done Africans
myself, but my do South American in the future. I'd suggest testing your tap
water for ph and hardness and going from there. If you have hard water with
a high ph, you can go with the Africans, more acidic, soft water, South
Americans. Or forget water chemistry and go with some of the African
riverine species. Keep us posted.
--
Amateur
http://www.amateurcichlids.com
Reply to malawi_...@amateurcichlids.com
To email me, exclude the lake and underscore.
Matt Levek
aggressive africans are just plain cool.
2. Add the cleaning product "clear ammonia" to your tank. 1 drop per
gallon. Make sure the product conatins nothing but ammonia. Test every few
days. Once the ammonia is gone 50% water change and add fish, this will
cycle the tank in about 10-14 days.
3. Sorry no books i use the web.
"Bob Bunch" <bobm...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:yisV8.4132$Ze7.185...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
Mephistopheles
> After 3 yrs in saltwater, I broke down the 75gal reef today and took
> back the live rock and what few corals and fish were left. Still have
> a 29gal reef, but the hair algae in the 75 got to be too much.....
>
> So...the tank now filling up with RO,I hope to be in the freshwater
> business soon. Lots of reading to do before I decide what livestock I
> want to keep. This newsgroup has been helpful, but I haven't lurked
> for long... just a couple of quick questions for a newbie:
>
> 1. South Americans or Africans? Any thoughts on either? I'm told
> the South Americans are less 'agressive', but the LFS has an African
> tank that is spectacular. Thanks in advance for any advice.
It is a little more complicated than that. Here is what I would consider
to be the main geographical groupings of cichlids: Central American,
South American (large, dwarf), African (rift lakes -- Tanganyikan,
Malawian, Victoria; riverine, other). Of these, I would actually
consider the central American cichlids to be the most uniformly
aggressive. The other groups have species with a broad range of
aggressiveness. Apart from the water considerations "Amateur" already
mentioned (IMO you need nuetral or higher Ph for rift lake species; only
certain South Americans, such as Discus and dwarf species, require soft,
acid water; central americans live in more alkaline water, but tolerate a
wide range of conditions), there are also size considerations. At full-
size, most large South American cichlids will be a bit cramped in a 75
gallon. The 75 gallon would probably be best suited for African
cichlids, most of which don't get too big. Since you are coming from
saltwater, you will probably want colorful fish. The Malawis are
probably the most colorful (but you need to learn which species are most
aggressive); Tanganyikans are very attractive and interesting, but
generally lack the bright colors of the Malawis.
>
> 2. Cycling questions.... LFS recommends cycling with Tiger Barbs, but
> I wonder if there is a fishless way to cycle with freshwater...hate to
> put any fish at peril to cycle.. in saltwater, we could substitute
> live rock to cycle instead of the normal way of cycling with damsels.
>
> 3. Found a few great sites (chiclid recipe looks fantastic)...any
> books you would recommend?
Check the reviews here:
http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aquainfo/books_malawi_1.html
Ad Konings (ed.) "Enjoying Cichlids" seems to get uniformly rave reviews
along with the Loiselle books. Among more specialized books, my favorite
book is Pierre Brichard's "Fishes of Lake Tanganyika", focusing on the
fish and ecology of the lake--as opposed to keeping them in the aquarium.
The taxonomic classifications are a bit dated, but it is a terrific read.
Probably the only fish book I have read cover to cover.
Stan
you will need to know are.
One, unlike marine fish who are constantly losing water through their
skin and pass only small amounts of waste, freshwater fish absorb water
through osmosis and pass 3 times the waste even large maine fish would.
Cichlids who are very messy eaters and big time waste produces make this
even worse. In short your stocking rate has been cut to 1/3 what you had
in your marine tank.
Two. Freshwater systems do not maintain biological stability like a reef
tank will. We do not have live rock bio filtration, DSB to get rid of
nitrate, and other living things to consume waste and help with bio load
(reef janitors). Freshwater tanks also can not employ protein skimmers
to get rid of excess waste before the bio filter must deal with it.
Along with are messier fish this means we work harder.
So instead of just a few powerheads and a protein skimmer for filtration
you will need a filter (at least one, I would recommend two) that will
turn over your tank 3 to 5 times a hour. and unlike reefs that you do
10 to 20% water changes every month to every 6 months. freshwater tanks
will need a 25 to 50% water change every week. It's the only way we
really have have to get rid of nitrate and extra protein build up.
But on the pro side you will not have to test for salinity, copper,
and all the other good stuff. and you said you have your tank filler
with RO water, you won't need that either. unless your keeping discus or
your tap water is really bad. RO units actually can remove things that
some freshwater fish need to live. As far as africans or americans It's
really personal preference but with a 75 gal. tank I would recommend
africans. Good luck and always ask questions, It's easier on you that
way.
Mephistopheles
news:12283-3D2...@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net:
> I have both marine (reef) and freshwater tanks, A few major
> differences you will need to know are.
> One, unlike marine fish who are constantly losing water through their
> skin and pass only small amounts of waste, freshwater fish absorb
> water through osmosis and pass 3 times the waste even large maine fish
> would. Cichlids who are very messy eaters and big time waste produces
> make this even worse. In short your stocking rate has been cut to 1/3
> what you had in your marine tank.
I am no saltwater expert, but your claim certainly goes against
everything I have ever heard. Freshwater fish are much less sensitive
to nitrates than saltwater fish and will tolerate much higher population
densities than saltwater fish -- even messy cichlids. I would expect
one would be able to successfully keep at least three times as many
freshwater as saltwater fish in the same size tank.
>
> Two. Freshwater systems do not maintain biological stability like a
> reef tank will. We do not have live rock bio filtration, DSB to get
> rid of nitrate, and other living things to consume waste and help with
> bio load (reef janitors).
Ever heard of live plants? They consume nitrates in freshwater tanks.
>Freshwater tanks also can not employ protein skimmers
> to get rid of excess waste before the bio filter must deal with it.
> Along with are messier fish this means we work harder.
>
> So instead of just a few powerheads and a protein skimmer for
> filtration you will need a filter (at least one, I would recommend
> two) that will turn over your tank 3 to 5 times a hour. and unlike
> reefs that you do 10 to 20% water changes every month to every 6
> months. freshwater tanks will need a 25 to 50% water change every
> week.
Definitely an overstatement in my experience. I do try to perform a 30%
water change weekly on my tanks (much easier than changing water in the
saltwater tank, of course); however, I do that to minimize algae growth
primarily. Freshwater tanks do not "need" such frequent changes to keep
fish healthy. Once every two weeks would be plenty; perhaps even less
if you have low fish densities or many plants. I really think you are
carrying over the saltwater enthusiasts justifiable concern about
nitrates over into the freshwater realm, where nitrates are much less of
a threat to fish.
Amateur
Mephistopheles <epiphenome...@earthlink.netDIESPAM> wrote in message
news:5LKV8.5118$Yx5...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Phoen...@webtv.net (Stan) wrote in
> news:12283-3D2...@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net:
>
> > I have both marine (reef) and freshwater tanks, A few major
> > differences you will need to know are.
> > One, unlike marine fish who are constantly losing water through their
> > skin and pass only small amounts of waste, freshwater fish absorb
> > water through osmosis and pass 3 times the waste even large maine fish
> > would. Cichlids who are very messy eaters and big time waste produces
> > make this even worse. In short your stocking rate has been cut to 1/3
> > what you had in your marine tank.
>
> I am no saltwater expert, but your claim certainly goes against
> everything I have ever heard. Freshwater fish are much less sensitive
> to nitrates than saltwater fish and will tolerate much higher population
> densities than saltwater fish -- even messy cichlids. I would expect
> one would be able to successfully keep at least three times as many
> freshwater as saltwater fish in the same size tank.
>
stocked in a tank is really dependant on the species. Fresh water/Marine
aside, it depends on the fish one is going to keep. Many people get upset
about the idea of more than one Oscar in a 55 gallon tank, and possibly
rightly so. Try to keep some of the African riverine Tilapia's with anything
and you'll see no matter what size the tank, you'll be limited to a couple
of fish. On the other hand, with the African lake species, in many cases
you'll find the more the merrier.
It's important to remember here that we all speak from our own
experiences. Someone who's kept SA cichlids most of their life may think
overstocking is cruel, where a 55 gallon tank to someone who keeps Mbuna
with 50 five inch fish in it seems like a perfectly natural thing to do.
It just goes to show, before buying any fish, the thing to do is
research. And if you do decide to go with a 55 gallon tank full of Mbuna,
the key here is filtration and cover.
Enjoy.
--
Amateur
http://www.amateurcichlids.com
Reply to malawi_...@snet.net
Stan
marine fish, but that is their only advantage. It is the way marine
fishes body functions along with a properly set up marine system that
allows the higher stocking rate. I did not go into detail on my last
post, but I will now.
The difference between marine and freshwater fish is the way they are
affected by the water around them. Freshwater fish absorb water through
osmosis, and must pass copious amounts of waste to prevent internal
damage. Marine fish has to cope with the reverse situation, it is
constantly losing water through it's skin to the stronger concentration
of sea water outside. Therefore, it has to consume large amounts of
water to keep it's body fluids at the correct concentration, and so
passes very small amounts of waste. marine fish only pass about a
quarter the waste a freshwater fish of the same size will. Couple this
with a good protein skimmer that also removes waste even before any
filter of fish must deal with it. A deep sand bed to remove excess
nitrate, live rock which is the most efficient bio filters around (by
the way marine bio bacteria is different than freshwater). You can see
how a marine system can handle a higher bio load than a freshwater tank.
look at reefs everything in a reef system is a living thing. Finally I
know the Cleveland zoos marine systems are more heavily stock then any
of their freshwater tanks.
Plants do remove nitrates, but only a small amount. In a planted tank
fish are secondary and in limited numbers. Too many fish along with too
much light, and fertilizer cause alot of problems.
I should also mention that recent advancements in protein skimmers,
bio filtration methods, and a better understanding of how marine life
works have turned the table in favor of marine systems as far as
stocking rates go. As recent as the early 90's freshwater fish had the
advantage, but this is no longer true. In the right hands you can stock
a marine tank just as high as a freshwater and in some cases far higher.
Mephistopheles
news:6470-3D2...@storefull-2275.public.lawson.webtv.net:
You are entitled to your opinions, but let us just be clear that they
clearly diverge from the conventional wisdom. Here is a quotation from
the saltwater aquaria FAQs:
"Before finalizing on a tank size, remember that fish densities are much
lower for saltwater than freshwater. That is, you can not put as many
fish in a saltwater tank as you can in a freshwater tank. Putting more
than 2 saltwater fish in 10 gallon tank is asking for trouble. A general
rule of thumb is 4" (10cm) of small-to-medium fish per 10 gallons, or 2"
(5cm) of larger/fast growing fish per 10 gallons. This is just a rough
estimate of the number of fish. There is no exact number since finding
the stocking density has to take into account the filtration,
maintenance, feeding schedule, etc.."
From: http://faq.thekrib.com/sbegin-setup.html
By the way, what is the highest density of fish you have maintained in a
saltwater aquarium, keeping all the fish alive for at least six months?
Meph
Stan
freshwater systems. I always stock on the light side. My 265 gal. tank
was a
marine tank before. I kept a queen trigger, king angel, black volitan,
panther grouper, and a niger trigger. The 450 gal. had a nurse shark,
green moray, and a undulate trigger. My 90 gal. held a foxface,
snowflake moray and a luner wrasse. I had the equiptment but no desire
to stock that high.
A friend of mine has a 220 gal. tank that has been running with the
same bio load for 3+ years and his set up was idenital to the set up on
my 265 (I helped him set it up). He has,
1 purple tang
6 yellow tangs
2 butterfly pearlscale
1 two-spot wrasse
a fleet of yellow tailed damsels 12+
1 emperor snapper (he runs the tank)
1 picasso trigger (I think)
Mark Stone
Amateur writes:
"Just thought I'd interject quickly to point out that the number of fish
stocked in a tank is really dependant on the species. Fresh water/Marine
aside, it depends on the fish one is going to keep. Many people get upset
about the idea of more than one Oscar in a 55 gallon tank, and possibly
rightly so. Try to keep some of the African riverine Tilapia's with anything
and you'll see no matter what size the tank, you'll be limited to a couple
of fish. On the other hand, with the African lake species, in many cases
you'll find the more the merrier.
It's important to remember here that we all speak from our own
experiences. Someone who's kept SA cichlids most of their life may think
overstocking is cruel, where a 55 gallon tank to someone who keeps Mbuna
with 50 five inch fish in it seems like a perfectly natural thing to do.
It just goes to show, before buying any fish, the thing to do is
research. And if you do decide to go with a 55 gallon tank full of Mbuna,
the key here is filtration and cover.
Enjoy.
--
Amateur"
This is refreshingly accurate. Formulas like "inches of fish per square inches
of surface area divided by temperature quotion ratios times ambient temperature
of a bird's left wing as he flies within six miles of the north-facing glass
surface of the aquarium, but *only* if the tank is larger than 34.2329 US
gallons and is north of the 33rd parallel on the second sunday of the month" are,
well, useless.
The most important thing is to research the species you want to keep before the
purchase, and know their specific needs in regards room, food, lighting, plants,
etc. Then not only is your fish safer and healthier once the system is set up,
but you are a happier fishkeeper. If I followed the formulas I've read over the
years (in regards tank size/number of fish) in keeping Oscars, none of them
would be alive past their third month!
--Mark
Mark Stone
OSCAR Lovers! http://www.geocities.com/cichlidiot_2000/oscar.html
The ".Edu" meens i are smart.
--
Use our news server 'news.foorum.com' from anywhere.
More details at: http://nnrpinfo.go.foorum.com/
Alan
Anyway, I agree that it is a personal preference on which fish to keep, but
my favourites are definitely the Malawi's and Tangs. I have found them to
be extremely hardy and will tolerate a little neglect at times. I do a 30%
water change every two weeks and filter clean once a month.
I'm not sure about using Tiger Barbs to cycle the tank. I think it's a
good idea to use fish that you may want to leave in the tank with Cichlids.
For example, a couple of Clown Loaches and a couple of Bristlenoses. Then
build up your other stocks gradually until the tank cycles naturally.
(3. Found a few great sites (cichlid recipe looks fantastic)...any books
you would recommend?)
Can you give me a link to Cichlid Recipe ?
All the best, Alan
cRaZeEEbITcHiSHeRE
can make it complete the cycle with no fish...if you decide to go that
route, i would wait until after the nitrite spike to stock, but that's
me...I haven't tried it myself, I got too many to choose seeding
from..lol, from what I have read, you can cycle it to accept your full
fish load , allowing you to safely add more fish at once. Nitrates,
when allowed to rise too high, can stunt growth, but the distress to
fish with relatively low levels is much less severe than a lot of
marine life...I like to keep mine immeasurable, but I am striving for
maximum growth at the moment, not to mention avoiding any undue
stress, and somebody once said I could be a little anal about some
things.........Best luck!
NetMax
"Alan" <per...@aceonline.com.au> wrote in message
news:1026101600.28106@bubba...
<snip>
>
> Can you give me a link to Cichlid Recipe ?
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/cichlidrecipe/crindx.htm
http://www.cichlidlovers.com/gallery.htm
http://malawicichlids.com/index.htm
The last two were just bonus :o)
NetMax
>
> All the best, Alan
>
>
>
Bob Bunch
http://www.cichlidrecipe.com/cichlidrecipe/cover.htm
Long reef tank story, but here goes...
I enjoyed a 90 gal reef for several years without problems, but then
hair algae moved in. Reef tanks are fascinating to me because of the variety
of livestock. Plus the interaction between the live rock, sand bed create
quite a 'chemical dance' (to quote Martin Moe).... but they are very
challenging... The algae overtook the tank in 2 or 3 week period.
Tried Tangs, added more hermits & snails, sally lightfoot crabs, lawnmower
blennie and other natural methods to try to keep it in check...nothing
worked.
Finally broke down the 90, put about 125 lbs of 'scrubbed' live rock in
rubbermaid trashcans (with circulation & heaters) and starved the algae of
light for 8 weeks. Meanwhile, I transferred the livestock from the 90 to a
new 75 (sold the 90 after I cleaned it up). I gave away or lost all the
coral because of the hair alge either overtook the coral or infested the
rock it was attached to.
I spent $$$ to upgrade to a more powerful skimmer (I now have 3 skimmers
in the attic...not much use in a garage sale....'Ethel, what the hell is
this?'). Moved the now algae free live rock into the new tank and voila....
more algae in a couple of weeks. I can only surmise it is high level
phospates in the local water (they are OFF the charts) and that my RO unit
could have been defective...or maybe algae spores are attracted to my living
room.... in any event, I just plain got my ass kicked by the stuff and gave
up....Still have a 29gal reef that's doing ok...enjoy it immensely.
Reefs are also very expensive... and it's a bottomless pit. Freshwater
seems to be a little more 'forgiving' in the wallet area.
Anyway, 'let the cycling begin'...
Thanks to everyone for the great info and I'll keep you posted.
Bob
"Remember, half the people you know are below average"
Alan
tried just about everything to cure the problem to no avail.
I agree that the hobby can leave you broke at times especially if we keep on
multiplying tanks.
I had a problem with blue-green algae in my Discus tank and I used black
peat which cured the problem in about 2-3 weeks. Obviously created a black
water effect which the fish love and the algae doesn't.
Thanks to you and Netmax for the links.
Alan